Episode 198: Why B2B strategy needs a little magick: Escaping the data trap, with Lesniak Swann

(upbeat music) Hello everyone and welcome to the B2B Marketing Podcast in association with LesniX1. My name is Vita Singh. I'm head of Growth Solutions Content. And today we are going to be chatting about why B2B strategy needs far more than data to create compelling campaigns. And actually I'm curious to find out exactly why that is. I'm joined by Matt Hicks, the strategy director at LesniX1. So without further ado, welcome back to our podcast. How are you doing today? - Hi, Kavita. Well thanks. Thank you for having me back. It's a look forward to chatting to you. - Yeah, definitely. Nice to have a bit of a chat today. And I know on our last episode we recorded, we talked a little bit about the modern buying journey. And in this episode we're switching gears a little bit and covering a different topic. I guess to kind of set the stage, can you tell me about the role of data and how it's sort of evolved in B2B strategies? - Yeah, sure. I guess first of all, just to put it out there, I'm not intending to slate the use of data at all. I think it's absolutely critical. We need to use it. But my view is there are ways it can be used in context better than we've perhaps have gone a bit too far in some cases in how it's used. So just to get that out there in case anyone's spitting the, spitting their morning coffee out about not thinking that data's not valuable, it is, but it's in a certain context. I think, yeah, in terms of the history of it, I guess if people that are as long in the tooth as me can remember the mid-naughties when Google Analytics first arrived, it was really exciting because we did lack a depth of data that we needed to make intelligent decisions about marketing. And you could say a bit further back than that, how the rise of the internet has helped with gathering quantitative data about audiences and about behavior and has helped to shape strategic decisions on campaigns too. So it's come from a good point. The increase of data to a point has been absolutely fantastic and critical to how we can be smarter in modern marketing. A lot of the, some of the marketing science we discussed last time is based on database approaches. But it has led us, I'd say, to a point where we're sometimes struggling to see the insights from the data. There's a tendency to go too far down the route of looking into the numbers and looking into the details of those numbers rather than the wider context of how we might be able to influence people, which at the end of the day is the job we're here to do. Yeah, no, I'm glad you kind of said the foundation and said, you know, not to ignore your data, but sometimes you go a little bit like too far deep down the data hole and sort of forget about some of the other strategic priorities maybe. So yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, as you sort of referenced in today's competitive market data can feel so integral to proving marketing impact. So how can data in isolation lead to bland sort of forgettable campaigns? Well, this is the thing in terms of how data is used to shape campaigns really as much as the analysis of them. It's how from a strategy point of view we're helping to get things set up to analyze the situation and to make sure that other teams like creatives are briefed in the right way to make a campaign land. I guess an analogy I'm not intent on pushing too far would be a sandwich. Data is the bread of a sandwich. It's not the filling. I don't like a bread sandwich. Perhaps some people will have. I've seen such a things of fried bread sandwich on social media, which seems not at my street. Well, I'm guessing most of your listeners aren't really fan of bread sandwiches. They like something a bit more interesting in the middle of it. And it's about how we can make that work in that if you think of the bread, the data as the rules of the game and the ballpark we're playing in. How can we make sure that's filled with something that's interesting? Because sometimes data can be fantastic for breaking dogma if you've got the right context. But also if you follow data too closely, you can end up being dogmatic about something you can end up using the same analytics techniques, looking at the same numbers and coming to the same solutions. When we chatted last time, we were talking about the importance of memorability and mental availability in the buying journey. If you're really going to appeal to people at those stages, it's crucial that you're looking beyond dogma. You're trying to do things in a different way, finding that insight to be able to do it. Now, there's studies around this, walks, multiplier effects, perhaps a famous one recently. And they talk about the performance penalty and that if you go too far down the route of just looking at performance marketing, there's a penalty to pay an ROI that in some cases can be a lower return, so about 50% in terms of the leads and the business you're getting through. And that's linked clearly to, you know, last-click attribution fallacies and things that I'm sure you guys have covered before. So it's key that we're moving out of that, really, and that we're looking at data in the wider context of what's going on here. And yes, we've got that quantitative data, but how can we use it alongside insights and perhaps a more human element to make sure that we're creating campaigns that are as effective as possible? I guess we'll come onto it in a bit, but it's about also from a strategy point of view, how can strategists make sure that they're helping to achieve that balance? They're not just the guys in the numbers, they're helping to make sure that wider context is shaped to. I think that human element is so essential, especially with the rise of AI, there's always that sort of to be around, you know, that sort of boundary between human interaction versus technology. And I think in this case, it could be really easy to find some sort of shiny new technology, and then think everything is sort of quantitative in terms of insights. When, like you said, it's going to affect the ROI. Exactly, exactly. I do want to touch on your sandwich, my fork, because I do like that. But why do you think strategists love data so much? Well, stress is some nerds. I'd include myself in that, by the way. And I think increasingly so, you know, there's over that back to, I suppose, good analytics, and the rise of this availability of data and the domination of the spreadsheet. It's become a profile of how strategists are hired in part of their mindset. When in actual fact, you need those two things in parallel, you can't just have that analytical, statistical side on its own. But there's a temptation to go down that route, I think. And it's understandable. I mean, you've got, you can control data. There's a certainty within data itself, which means it's quite comfortable to use. And also, if you look at how marketing helps to influence the wider business in house and how to influence the sea suite, then data is statistic numbers at graphs of the go-to for that. So there's a natural gravitation to it. But that means, I think sometimes that natural gravitation means the wider insight-based qualitative filling of the sandwich can be overlooked. You encourage me to push the metaphor now. So I'm going to lean into it and see how far it goes. But there's a natural gravitation to that when-- and you can understand why, because it aligns with the personality of strategists, and it also aligns with how it's easier to persuade businesses more broadly to do something. But just because you persuaded someone to make a certain decision doesn't mean it's the right one, or that you've started out on the right path in the first place. So there's layers to it in that respect. Yeah, definitely. And I guess to continue with the metaphor, data is the bread to the sort of metaphorical sandwich. What do you think the filling would be? The film has to be insight. And we'll come on, perhaps, to a definition of insight in a bit. But it has to be that human aspect, that emotional intelligence to how you make these decisions. And to be clear, we're talking about decisions at the starter campaigns around what should the position be, what should the messaging be, how should the creative brief be defined in a way that allows a creative team to actually go and do something that's going to have impact and a grab attention, not just drive less clicks. So it's about how that can come about. And about I find from a strategy point of view when we're putting these campaigns together, use the quant side, but then look at what threads there are to follow, what seemed interesting there, what's strange about human behavior that we can kind of pull the thread on, see where we get to, because you often, I've got a good example of a campaign in a minute, actually we could cover. But you start then to uncover different layers of it and you start to remove your own assumptions in a way, because Anna's guilty of this as anyone, if you are often to appraise data, you have to bring some assumptions to what's going on. So getting under the skin of what that, the reason and the root cause of those data is really important. But it is, for some reason, it's become, I think, back to what we discussed before. It's become quite a rare skill from a strategy point of view. We've seen agencies to have that balance. It's very, very much focused on the data. And we feel that you're missing out there back to the ROI point. It's a key part of how I think sometimes campaigns can undermine themselves if they don't have that balance of that insight, that qualitative aspect to it. Yeah, it's interesting, because you said a sum trim, but my mind instantly went to like, almost like, following your intuition, and instead kind of going to the numbers and sort of relying and pulling back on data instead. Exactly, and balancing the two, you know, but back to my caveat at the start, you know, we wouldn't it would be equally as bad a campaign if you didn't have data to help make the decision to we got to have the balance of those two one. Perhaps a bit more of a left field metaphor would be how how public magicians like Alistair Crowley in the 19th 20th centuries who was a he was a fantastic personal brand branding put in his own right really phenomenal how he marked himself based on based on actually who he wasn't and what he did. But they describe that act of magic there as a science and art of causing change change to occur and conformity with will with your will, which is quite a neat way of describing marketing communications in a way in that we're looking to change people's minds and get them to act in a certain way. And the key bit there is the science and the art so if you see the sciences the data you have to have that balance with the art the qualitative human insights interpretation really to make sure it lands and make sure it's memorable back to our Byron Sharp textbooks about mental availability. You really need a level of creativity in that to be able to do it right to get creativity resonating with people you need that that emotional layer to it essentially relevant plus engaging equals effective is the way the way we saw it up. But Crowley had his own way about it as well. I mean, I definitely want to look into him and find out a little bit more. But do you have a couple examples of campaigns that has sort of achieved that full sandwich and sort of that blend of science and art as you said. Yeah, I've made maybe focus on one thing and we've got a client called polypipe and they were they were launching a new product about 18 months to years ago called max flow, which was a different to we do quite a lot of work in industrial marketing space. So put this this part of polypipe produce water supply products for big commercial buildings. So you know I work in Manchester a lot and you see a lot of these big tall buildings going up same in London and Birmingham, etc. And they were launching a new product that would rival the traditional metal products that were on the market. And now if we took a data driven approach to that, we would think well, these new systems are more efficient to install. So you're going to save time on your project. And that's what we should focus on. And there are other not as good similar systems in the market that focus on that. So we got to that point and we thought well, we're basically just throwing the same idea out to the market as anyone else. How can we actually stand out and be memorable here. So we went out did our qualitative research like like good planners do and talk to the market talk to the engineers who are designing this stuff. And the more you just chat to them, the more you could find out that actually yes, they understood about the efficiency message. But the reason they were choosing metal was fundamentally they just there was this emotional attachment to it because it feels solid. If you're designing a big tall building, especially with all the safety concerns around construction nowadays. And you want to feel it's solid, it's robust, it's tough. And they felt that these alternative options weren't as tough. Whereas we knew it was clearly tested polypipe solution was. So while everyone was zinging into the efficiency angle, we thought well actually the emotional resonance here is in is in the toughness, the robustness we need to give them that assurance. So our campaign focused around that and it was really successful. They've you know, mech flow sold millions of millions. The sales have been fantastic on the back of it and the recognition and the cut through as well in terms of that ongoing memorability. But that rested on that insight that if we gone down the rational data route, it would have been about project efficiencies and cost savings and time savings, whereas actually people's hearts rather than their heads were around this this worry around robustness. So we're able to spin it in the right way. And it's that layer of insight that that's important here that you don't get just from the data, you get it from talking to people and shooting the breeze and examining exactly what they are, what they're looking for in the market. Yeah, it's interesting how talking to people can sort of create and illustrate a lot more color to your campaigns, but also, you know, have a pretty pivotal role in creating the messaging as well. Like you said, if you went down a different avenue, it would be completely different. So I think that's really an excellent example of that. Yeah, and it's important from there from a strategy point of view that, you know, back to the point about strategies and that handover from an agency point of view to creatives strategy rights to create a brief. We can't have this hard and fast line, which we find in a lot of cases where strategy might be the data guys and creatively the art, the, you know, the emotion guys. And that just means there's this there's this chasm this grand canyon between the two departments, which mean clients don't get the right results out of it because the work isn't effective. Whereas if you have that constructive gray area where you've got you've got strategies who are comfortable looking at that that softer qualitative side of things and you've got creatives that are happy to get into the data a little bit as well. You've got a much better chance of getting that that strong creative work out of it and a better result back to walks multiplier effect at the end of the day you're avoiding that that penalty impact. Well, I mean, I think that's a really, really great example. I mean, in that case to kind of pull from your Krawley sort of analogy, what does a magic moment or approach look like in B to be marketing. I think I'd call it I'd call it an insight and there's a fellow called called Anthony Tazgal who's written books about this and he's got a tremendous. So I'm full disclosure, I'm using his definitions. I can't I can't think of a better one hidden truth tension or paradox that reframes the thinking on something. And that I think is really the nub of it is that you're looking for something different you're looking for attention in something a paradox in thinking or some kind of universal truth that hasn't been used before. They're quite high-minded words, I suppose really aren't they? But it's it's it's it's it stands true in that you're looking for that that emotional aspect to it that drives things a different spin on things I would say really. It makes campaigns more residents. So you're looking for you know, I like a bacon sandwich so you you'd like a nut to the bacon in the in the bread wouldn't you are supposed in that respect. Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Wait, taking all this into account. Is there anything you know when you look at campaigns. Is there anything that needs to be measured other than sort of your performance KPIs. Well, I think I think KPIs can be very broad broad factor can't they so I think I think what you need to do is the realms of add testing is perhaps another whole whole not the podcast really in the debate around that. There are there are definite uses to that as well in terms of creative testing and checking that that that resonance is there. But also just ensuring that that that's followed through you know most of what we've talked about here today is around the effectiveness of making sure that initial idea and that campaigns right. You've got to absolutely link it through to those performance KPIs to check it's working because this is about driving business at the end of the day. So it absolutely should be whether that is you know so called softer metrics around monitoring awareness right the way through to how many sales you've generated you know click clicks on the site and by now so it's it's across the board really but I think I don't think it's so much around adjusting those performance KPIs is just making sure. What you're using them to measure the stuff you're putting into it is is right in the first place a higher quality at the top is going to improve those KPIs for you later down the line. Yeah, that definitely makes sense to sort of establish those from the get go and then when it comes to measurement it kind of aligns perfectly yes. If someone is listening to our episode what advice would you give B2B marketers the next time they're building a campaign. I think I think stop and think about about this this this extra layer you know we have the luxury being able to do some good in depth research for these things but you don't you don't have to you know if I'm sure you you listen as a well aware of being familiar with the audience and getting talking to customers and that kind of thing. Just those kind of conversations can help to help to put a spin on this and also from an in house point of view just make sure that your agency is managing this in the right way and that you've got an agency that's going to be helping you to push on those things because that that values really really important. If that little bit of extra time up front in terms of even if it's just having to you know think going for a walk in the morning having to think for an hour to about what's this spin. It can read dividends later down the line because it just has that that ripple effect that butterfly effect if you like into that creative process into the concepts that are coming through even into the ideas in terms of what channels you're using to roll this out. That time invested up front even if just an hour or two can be can be can be tremendously powerful later down the line and it's fun you know you get to your marketers we like to be creative in these things it's a that's a part of my job I love it's an excuse where you can be creative and let your mind run wild a bit so it's yeah it's not I don't find it sure I don't think it should be you know it should feel feel arduous in that respect. Yeah I 100% agree it's funny I could just hear someone may be saying I don't have time for an hour long walk but truly I think when you block out time specifically just to kind of think about these things and just maybe like block out. out like, okay, this is just for like strategy and like building, you know, exactly. But yeah, I totally agree with that. I can see we are running out of time, but Matt, since you've caught with so many interesting analogies today, the floor is yours. Is there anything else you want to say before we go? I think, well, I think we've said it there really, just taking that time to make sure that these things are part and parcel of the process, you know, and we bake them into what we do in our briefing structures and things, but it doesn't have to be a client agency relationship, you know, anything that you're doing in-house, taking that time to think, you'll often find that you come back to the spreadsheets and actually see them in a very different way, once you've had that layer of thought, that insight. So it's something you can bake in as little winds across smaller campaigns as well as the big and the brand level stuff as well. It's, it becomes a very powerful way of thinking about how to get the most, how to get the best RY for me, for me campaigns, really. Fantastic. Well, I think that's a really good note to leave on. Thanks so much, Matt, for sharing all your insights with us today and to our audience. If you're looking to find out more, please feel free to reach out to Matt on LinkedIn or you can check out LesniX1's website. Thanks everyone so much and I will see everyone again soon for another podcast. Thanks so much, Matt. Cheers. Thanks, Kiwita.