Episode 19 - Don’t Pitch—Partner: The Art of Fundraising as Shared Vision with Deena Fuchs

This episode is brought to you by Jay Furniture, where quality, comfort, and community come together. From classroom seating to custom built solutions, Jay Furniture partners with Jewish Day Schools across North America to create beautiful, functional spaces that support learning and connection. As a family-run business with decades of experience, Jay understands the unique needs of Jewish institutions and delivers furniture that's as durable as your mission. Visit Jay Furniture, J-E-Y Furniture.com to learn how they can support your school's next upgrade. Date your donors, the only podcast that helps you find your charitable soulmates, makes them fall in love with your mission, and say I do when you ask them for their time and money. Brought to you weekly with your host and author, Jonah Halper. [Music] Dean of FUX, thanks for coming on the podcast. So happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Oh, absolutely. You know, I met you, oh man. Is this going back at least 10 years. You were working for the Avi High Foundation, right? So that was when we met. Yeah. Pretty crazy. It's been so many years, and I want to really get to talk to you today on a variety of topics, but primarily around the dynamic and relationship that you have with the funder, the foundation side, and with the grantee, which in our case that our audience is predominantly Jewish education. And I want to talk first a little bit about your background and your experience working in a variety of settings. Just looking at your CV, you have worked at Avi High for close to 20 years, right? It's 20 years. Yeah, 19 years. Geez, I feel like no one works. No one does that. No one does that. When you get a Rolex watch at the end of that experience. It means to call them the golden handcuffs. The golden handcuffs. That's older than handcuffs, for sure. Yes, amazing. Yeah, so 19, 20 years of Avi High Foundation, and then you worked for the Jewish funders network. What was your executive vice president there? Exactly, vice president, yeah. And then most recently, you're the inaugural ED, the executive director of Michael Philanthropies, which is Jeremy and Ann Pavas foundation. Where is the foundation located? The foundation is based technically in Agile on Massachusetts. The Pavas are from West Hartford, Connecticut, and I'm based in New York. Where in Massachusetts? What city is this? Agilom. Agilom. I've never actually been there, but Western. That's funny, because I'm actually a Massachusetts kid. And I never heard of Agilom. I mean, everything in Massachusetts, either from England or from a Native American tribe. So that one clearly is the Native American tribe. Exactly. All right. So, all right. So what I'd love to know is, you know, a little bit about your background, your journey, and kind of what your career has been a common thread or a theme that's followed you into the work that you're doing. And it'll hopefully open up the conversation into a deeper dive into the nature of the funder and the Jewish education landscape, and just a little bit about who Dean of Fuchs is, be great. Okay. Amazing. So I am a New Yorker born and bred. Went to, well, my schooling here, I went into Jewish day schools for 12 years. I spent a gap year in Israel before it was what everybody did. And then I went to school. I was in Barnum College at Columbia University. And when I was deciding what to do, I had lots of different thoughts. But I ended up, actually, my first job out of college was in a PR firm, PR marketing firm, that's specialized in the boutique firm, specialized in Jewish nonprofits. And I realized after a year there that I wanted to start the Jewish community. I wasn't sure exactly how, but I knew that I wanted to feel that kind of purpose in my life. And so I stuck with that firm for a few years. And then I basically fell into working for the Audify Foundation. Sometimes college roommates get you where you need to know. But that was a time before there was really a field of Jewish philanthropy. There were lots of incredibly generous Jewish funders. And there was a Federation system. But the Foundation world was relatively young. Abigail was funded by Salmon Bernstein in 1994. So this was about 1999 when I joined the Foundation. And I basically grew up in the Jewish philanthropic space. I would say, like we said, 20 years at Abigail, through that there was a journey at Abigail. And then Jewish funders network and now eating makeup. I think the question about like threads and themes is a really interesting one. I would say the first thing straight off the bat is funders are people. That's just like one main theme. I worked with at Abigail at a board of trustees. We were about a dozen trustees. Well, non-family members, but all connected to the machine in some way. And everyone had their own passions and their own aspirations. And they brought that to the table. So working with each of those trustees was just an interesting and fascinating experience for me. At JFN, I managed a network of hundreds of funders all coming from different walks of Jewish life. And different interests. And now I have the actual absolute privilege of working with a family and a wonderful family. Who have their own and their personal lives have contributed to their own passions and aspirations. And along with those passions and aspirations also comes fear discomfort. And I think the role of the foundation professional is to really understand deeply what those dreams are. But also where the discomforts lie and how can you help navigate their work or our work so that those dreams are fulfilled. And aspirations reach and with as little discomfort as possible. So I think that's sort of the first thing I would say about sort of the theme through all my years in the field. A second thing I would say is how poor in strategy is. And I think that's what I love most about the work aside from the sort of human side of it. But the sort of creativity involved in having a world view and wanting to see things change or be amplified or scaled and thinking strategically of how you get there. I think strategic philanthropy is really not about writing checks at all. We do write checks because ultimately how your work is supported. But it's really about creating the conditions that help an organization flourish or a field flourish and I think that's. And maybe not even an organization or a field yet, but even just an idea flourish. And so that's where I think sort of another theme through my work. So what I think it was more like a school field. JFF and I think it was about strategic philanthropy in general. And it might be philanthropy is it's really about. You know, creating a vibrant Jewish community that's built on traditional values. That's one welcoming and inclusive. So I guess you know, you came into the career space through the PR lens. And then and then you started getting molded by the whole I think I experience. Was there something that became like, you know, oh, this is my thing or something that you. You know, it was a strength that you leaned into and that became what your expertise was at. So that when you went to JFN, they're like, oh, we want Dina because she brings this to the table that she did 19 years that I be high. What was what was that thing that really became like? You know, this has like the mark of Dean on it. This is Dina's area of expertise. Okay, so you asked really good questions. It's actually to be reflective about this experience. It's always good not to be the first person interviewed. Now that you're about, you know, 20 people deep, you're getting the better questions. Okay, it's great. So thank you to everyone or the 19 before me. So I would say I joined, I joined Avichai for my communications credentials. My first job at Avichai was director of communications. I was the first communications director of the foundation it had until then they were pretty much sort of below the radar in terms of what they were doing. But when Zaman Bernstein of lesson memory passed away, they felt or the board felt that it was now the board's responsibility to communicate with the fields because it was no longer a funder. But actually the community was, you know, the funder. And so I really brought that skill set to Avichai to begin with. But I think when you're in a role like that in sort of a communications role, you have a perch that most of the staff doesn't get. So if you have a program officer at a foundation, you're working on your portfolio grants so you know what you know. Some foundations have more particularistic roles like, you know, there's a foundation professional who focuses on Jewish education, but then you'll have another foundation professional who focuses on individual advocacy, just by way of an example. And their paths are barely crossed when you have somebody in a communications role, they have that sort of big picture view of the foundation space. So through that lens, I was able to take on projects. And this is an evolving process over many years, but take on projects that were more around sort of marketing the message of our ideas. So there's a lot of storytelling involved. There's a lot of research involved. And I also evolved into a partnership building professional at the foundation. Again, having that full breadth of the foundation's work when Avichai decided to sunset in 2019, which is why I'm ultimately left the foundation. And it was really to work and be co-creative with other funders. So that helped me move into a lot of strategic philanthropic role. And that's where I live. You got to JFN. And then now obviously you mentioned with Micah, the focuses on the idea of traditional Judaism being relevant and accessible. That's clear you can see it on the website and I understand the mandate. I guess my question to you there is like, you know, from our crowd, we're talking about Jewish education. And I'm sure that when it comes to the concept of traditional Judaism and making it accessible and relevant. The polar opposite is like that, like, you know, the Hebrew school experience where like no one wants to be there. And it's not. It doesn't connect. And you know, the kid would rather be at soccer practice than on a Sunday morning in Hebrew school. You know, what is what is it? I mean, I'm sure it covers a number of areas. But when it comes to Jewish education, what what is the kind of the vision for Micah philanthropies. And I think it'll help us give some good focus on our conversation around the importance of the investment in Jewish education and the sustainability and growth of it. So just give me a little bit of your perspective on from Micah philanthropy, you know, kind of the the spokesperson for that organization, that foundation, what does it mean for what is the relevancy or what's the connection with Jewish education and your mission and priorities of foundation. Okay, so I think, you know, like I started in the beginning, every funder is a is a person. And so their personal experiences bring it all to the table. So, you know, the pop is like themselves before the foundation was started incredibly committed to day school education. They are responsible for English Academy and West Hartford. They were the founders of high school many, many years ago, and you know, they're basically instrumental in Jewish day school education in New England. And that became very much a part of their philanthropic identity. In terms of our overarching vision of a vibrant Jewish community that's built that's warm welcome and inclusive and built on traditional values. There is only really one way to communicate all of that to the next generation. And that is through Jewish education. We don't we don't just focus on children Jewish education is much bigger than in day school education, but day school was definitely a core strategy of ours and the foundation supports the schools in West Hartford in a significant way. And nationally, we find Prisma, the center for Jewish day schools, which anecdotally I was involved in the creation of prison when I was at Abichai, and that's when I met Anne. She was already. And so we were we were working with the why you day school partnership and with Pige at the time, and we just kind of kind of came along for the ride and that murder happened so yes, so that mean an event. So so day schools have been part of their philanthropic journey forever. And it became part of a strategy towards that warm welcoming and inclusive Jewish community that we aspire to. We also, you know, thinking taking the step back to sort of a warm welcoming and inclusive community and one where traditional values feel relevant and compelling. We also believe that Jewish education is not just about transmitting knowledge, but it's about inspiring personal meeting and connections. And so we think very intentionally about what are the right levers to build those connections and and meaning and most of that is through who the educators are. So what are those levers that you're looking at, you know, give you a little bit more under the hood as far as, you know, I'm not necessarily looking for what's what it is in the brochure, but like what are some of the things that help really make you know, Jews and feel more relevant and accessible in today's world. You know, what are those what are those types of projects that that micro philanthropy cares about formal informal education, build an adult, like what how does that work? So the way it's mostly showing up in our work at the moment is around orthodox women's Torah scholarship and leadership. We believe strongly that we're at a time where women's voices are growing are increasingly more important in our Judaism. Now building connection and meaning, I think women's perspectives bring a lot to the table. I think there's a growing interest in women's Torah education. And so what does that look like as we're building a community that's growing in vibrant and feels this warmth, well, you know, this, this welcoming nature and feels inclusive. We believe that women's leadership is essential. And so we've leaned very heavily into our work in identifying, supporting, nurturing. Training and providing opportunities for women in Torah years. So I would say that's probably where you'll see that the most. If you look at our website and if we talk about our grand portfolio right now, that's where we're spending much of our time and attention. And our, you know, real belief is that those voices are a lever to that connection and meaning. So that's what we're spending a lot of time right now. That's, that's, that's really interesting. And I think that, I know that that you do have that reputation as an organization that's something that is because it's such a compelling and relevant topic. It's something that we, you know, he that you are perceived as a leader in that space. I guess my question then is a follow-up question is, OK, so that's your priority. So when organizations come to you and say, Hey, you know, I think we might have an alignment here. You know, we have things that we that we're doing that fit. We think pretty neatly within your priorities. You know, how would you, how do you measure? How do you decide what's worthwhile investing in, right? Because a lot of things sound great, right? But whether they are great as a whole other story. I know in the like the tech world, you'll say like sometimes you'll, you invest in the people. Even sometimes more than the I, than the actual project itself, right? When you have the right person, that's incredibly valuable. So how much is it looking at the people who are involved and say, whatever they're doing, they're going to be at the forefront of this agenda, of course, from forefront of this issue. And, and how much is it saying like, no, no, no, when the rubber hits the road, we need to see a project that has specific goals and outcomes attached to it, something that we think is going to last longer than just be a flash in the pan. Like it's going to be sustainable, right? What's up, is there a balance? Is there a part, how do you decide what's worthwhile for you? So I would say everything is important and worthwhile. I don't know if I could give you a sort of formulaic balance for how we think about this. There is definitely a part of this work that is about sort of gut instincts and sort of the flesh. And sometimes it's about timing. And so I think, you know, one of the things to think about if you're on the other side is about like patients and like sort of, maybe this is not the exact moment, but maybe there's another moment. The way I look, so first of all, there are two ways we go about our grant making. One is we have an idea. And this is also something that I have on the other side of the foundation is we have an idea. We're testing a theory or a hypothesis. Let's find those people who are doing that work and let's together figure out how to achieve this goal. So you're coming more from a thought leadership saying we have this idea. This is something that we think really has some legs to it. Let's find people who are already in the space, you know, playing with this and give them the booster rockets in order to really to show to let's prove it or disprove it or see if it is that what you're really describing here. So I can give you an example of a project like that in the moment. So we have a hypothesis that there are many young women at Manera, but it's a stage of their lives. They get very animated by Torah learning. I think it's part of sort of the botanist process and then all of a sudden, botanist was over and it sort of rolls by the wayside and it can capture all of this energy and excitement for Torah learning. And so which the boys tend to have in whether it's between schools and different kinds of summer programs. So we thought what would it look like if we actually create an intentional space for young girls post botanist to continue in that sort of de Torah learning. And we approached Dresha who runs a summer camp for high school girls, which has a nice group of girls who are coming every summer. To learn Talmud and being camp and be with like minded peers, what would it look like if we created something from a school. So that we could I thought this is being continuing post botanist, but is there a way to continue this growth going forward. And so we knew who's already doing something in the space. Because you had a 20,000 foot view, it wasn't like you did an open casting call and said, come on, you had an idea Dresha, the Dresha Institute was in this space and said, hey guys, you know, do you want to do this together. And let's turn this into something and they said, let's do it. Now, okay, so first of all, I mean, I love the Dresha, the Dresha Institute was our first client that we ever had at Altru city 15 years ago. So we worked with Rabbi Silver and their leadership. And I got to tell you, like for me, it's someone who grew up in the Yashiva system to come in and see like the level, the caliber of learning that was going on in the baby drash there was unbelievable. I lost you there. Be back. All right, sorry. All right, I'm going to repeat what I just said. Yeah, the Dresha Institute is an organization that I know very, very well. They were our first client altruicity. And when I came into meet with Rabbi Silver and meet with the leadership there, what blew me away, you know, someone who grew up in the Yashiva system and the day school system, the Yashiva day school system. I came into the bait, bait me drash and saw the caliber of learning. And I said, do your donors know like the level of learning that going on in here, because the women who are in this bait me drash, like could put like the boys that I was in the Yashiva to shame. But the the caliber like that I was listening to the sheer and I saw materials and they said a lot of our donors have no idea. And I was like, this is like a missed opportunity. It's your product. You got to be able to communicate this. So I have a very soft spot in my heart for the organization. A, for giving me a chance of the way beginning where I had no reputation and nothing. And they took me on, but be just super impressed with an organization that I didn't know what what I would come to expect. But I was blown away by just the level of academic excellence of learning that they have there. So you clearly, yeah, you definitely got the right partner in that. That's a sure. And it's been going on now for a number of years and program and it feeds into the high school program and it feeds into ongoing year long programming. And so not only a Disha just that these young, you know, even in their in their high schools, you know, there is additional learning because of what they're bringing to table. And so I thought this is proved to be right as a small one, but if you're thinking about a continuum for the conditions of an ecosystem is the start. So that's a wonderful. So you're touching, you're touching on something that I thought was interesting is that, you know, because of your bird's eye view and you had certain priorities, you were able to seek out certain players, certain, you know, organizations that can help manifest the vision that you had. I'm also imagining because of your bird's eye view, seeing what works or what doesn't work. Are there's things that you see in the Jewish education space that whether they're, you know, we could first talk about the positive things, things that you're like, oh, you know what, like this is really working well. We wish, you know, this was more prevalent or everyone, you know, it's a best cup secret or the thing that you're seeing in the space that are like the like why are we still doing this nourish guy like why are we still having these problems like this is crazy. There's a better path here and because of your top level view, it's stuff that you, you know, you wish you could see what like finally put away. So I don't know if you have thoughts on either of those approaches, but are there things in the space that you see is like being done really, really well things that are not being done so well and, you know, is it a matter of bringing the expertise and changing it. Is it a matter are there people already doing it well that you know, is it, is there are there introductions that need to be had that that can introduce best in class work to people who may not be aware of it. You know, like you might have mentioned like, you know, the the area of women in orthodoxy and playing a leadership role and doing things like that. You might say, this is being done really well here, but it's not necessarily yet implemented in places that you would see as a natural affinity for adoption in other places. Things like that are do you see things in the Jewish education space that kind of fit that bill. The one thing I'll start by saying is I told you the story of how we look for a partner, but that doesn't mean that we don't talk to everybody and see what other ideas are out there. It may get a very strong point to recognize that there's so much that I don't know and that there are so many creative and talented people on the ground who are doing the things that are that they're passionate about and there's likely a space for that in our work. You're saying even what you end up look what you end up taking or needing has evolved because of the conversations that you've had with people in that space. You may come in saying this is what we're looking for. Let's talk to a number of people in the space and in those conversations go, oh, this is a great point. This is an extra layer that we weren't thinking of that we want to make sure to take into account when we just decide on who our partner is going to be. 100%. So I mean, we think about it and I think this is one of the sort of trends to the first question of what you were asking about sort of my background. I'm not a philanthropic professional, right? I'm not a day school professional, which is where my philanthropic works was spent for 20 years at Abichai. And I'm certainly not a woman's Torah scholar or leader, which is where my work is dedicated significantly now. I am a philanthropic professional and I know how to use the tools of philanthropy to help my trustees and my funders get achieved their goals and visions, but I am not the content expert and I am learning constantly on the job. And so I think it's enormously important for anyone who's in the role that I'm in to come to the work with, you know, real humility to recognize it. I don't know, you know, I have my own hypotheses that can be totally proven wrong and I also want to test out other people's thinking and I need to learn from everybody out there. So I make it a very strong point of talking to everyone and anyone that I can. At some point, there's only so many hours of the day, but I only think that we can do our work best when we are experiencing all that the field has to offer. So I think that's just one thing I want to say, like I think that's important. If you and your colleagues who are working as the professionals for the foundation are getting this education, how does it then transmit back to the trustees, the people who set up the foundation and have the vision and the priorities. You know, when you have to come to them and say, Hey, guys, look, we want to teach you something, right? There's something, you know, there's some, just some things we've learned and some learnings I think will help inform what, what's the setting like that? Is that a board meeting? Do you have those discussions at a board meeting or how, how does that play out? So I would say every foundation is going to be different here. There is a famous saying in the foundation world, you mean one foundation, you met one foundation, nobody, no foundation does it the same as the other foundation. So the way we work is that I meet with with with Anna Jeremy for my trustees every week. And and we also have quarterly board meetings where things are more formalized. But I'll also have a great conversation and drop a quick text and say I have to share something with you that I just learned, you know, and we do it that way. We're generally very nimble, very, you know, and we are incredible hands on and so we were always working together. When I was at Avikai, we would have much bigger team and a much bigger board. We then was a more formal process where we had staff meetings and board meetings and some of those meetings sometimes took months until they were distilled and insights were put together in the right memo that made its way to the board. So there are all different kinds of ways. You're saying that some of the some of the grantees need to be patient because it does take some time for this to come. And also there are times when I speak with the pop is about an idea and they hear. And then I bring it back because you know, so it becomes an iterative process or as the framing becomes more solidified, I can share it more. And sometimes it takes, you know, a grand cycle until you realize, oh, we're actually missing this, let's come back to this. So there is definitely a need for patients, which I think is enormously important and relationship building, which I'm sure we're going to get to at some point in this conversation. So I would just say with, you know, different foundations work in different ways, but it is the role of the professional to be the one to provide the right framing and distillation. So that, you know, the ideas come across in the way that are that are in the best achieves the goals of the potential grantee partner and the goals of the foundation. I've used the analogy of a seesaw and the fulcrum as sort of the relationship here where, you know, the grantee partner is on one side of the seesaw and the funders on the other side. And there's that little metal piece in the middle that helps everybody go up and down smoothly and nobody gets hurt. That's, I think, the role of the foundation professional. Oh, nice. That's how I tell I think about the work, a little piece of metal in the middle. But it's very for the experience to be a good one. Right. You know, so that's how I think about the work. The other thing I'll say is what I do very often is I bring the pick the idea generator or the person who's executing the idea the potential grantee partner into conversation with the problem is when I think the time is right. Because I think leadership really matters. Yeah. So you're, you're touching on now as you mentioned this about the relationship because it's a partnership, right? It takes two to tango. And fundraising, it's not going to an ATM machine and making it withdrawal. It's saying, look, you know, we have a shared vision. There's an alignment there and you have the money and we have the technical know how we can be the ones who can take it from point A to point B. And with our powers combined, we can accomplish great work together. You know, no, no grantee, no, no agency, no organization is going to want to take some money and a not have any involvement, right, they want you as a partner. And they also don't want it to be where it's just like, you know, one year and done, they want it to be where that's the sustainable growth. And I'm sure the foundation also has some expectations where you don't want to silly want to be the only game in town, right, you want to make sure that this is something that has got some real legs to it and there's leadership, whether it's financial or just, you know, decision making leadership that's both professional and and lay driven. And you want to make sure there's something that's going to be an investment, not into a black hole, but into something that's going to be sustainable for the long term. So tell me a little bit now more about the relationship between the foundation and the organization that comes to you. How is it, what, what does a long term relate, you know, we talk about, you know, in our personal lives, you know, you want a long term relationship, like we can define communication skills and things like that. What is, what is the long term relationship look like for the funder, so I could say specifically for a micro philanthropy, but really if you're in your role of the JFN and seeing what people, you know, what expectation is, what does the, what does a long term relationship look like. Okay, so I can speak in generalizations and then I can speak to specifics again, every funder is going to want something a little bit different, but I think there are some basic parameters that are the same and that I definitely heard from many of my colleagues about what they're looking for in relationship. Number one, I think there is trust is incredibly important and trust does not happen immediately. I just heard this the other day, something about being in partnership at the speed of trust, but trust in the speed of relationship or something like that. Developing relationships so trust will only develop when you're in relationship and relationship is like in any interpersonal relationship is that's decided, whether you're tangling or not, it's it's a divided endeavor and when that requires a lot of active listening on every last part and a lot of empathy. And I think what's really important for a funder and I'll speak here for myself and again, I do think I speak for colleagues of this as well is authenticity and transparency. Now, transparency is hard to come by when you're just starting out the relationship because you're uncomfortable, but ultimately where we wanted to evolve to is transparency. But authenticity and sort of genuineness and a sort of a deep caring about the long-term goals and aspirations of the funder and the long-term goals and aspirations of the institution. But that what you just described as like authenticity and that genuineness, that must be a gut thing right because it's something that you how would you demonstrate that other than saying I can see like they say that as you know when you're a fundraiser the number one compliment of fundraiser gets is I see believe in what you're doing right. Right, it's not you can sell ice cubes to ask a mose or sell me the Brooklyn bridge like you're a great salesman. No, no, no, it's like it comes out every fiber of your being that clearly this is something that's important to you so isn't just that's what you're describing when you say that. I think it's partially that but I also think it's like what are you talking about is it all about the house or is it all about the wise and I think when we really when we bring things back to the why and why something is so important and why it's so vital. And where you can sort of see alignment around the why and ultimately the goals like I do this so that right the so that statement so like what's the what's the really the end game and if there's alignment around the end game. That feels what's like that's the authentic right is the end game and so that's so it's definitely just a personality piece to it right and there is a gut reaction to it but it's also like a deep understanding of why the work is so important. So that you can achieve something in that ultimate goal is becomes becomes I think what is the driver. Do you find most of the organizations you interact with you over the years that that comes naturally to them the idea of like the starting with the why. You know to steal from Simon Sinek but the idea of like you know the mission is something that you think in the nonprofit space like it all comes down to the work they're the mission that you're doing. Do you find that that comes that for the most part that that genuineness that authenticity is there it's sometimes they may they may not necessarily they may be trying to punch above their weight with what they want to accomplish they might not be ready for a variety of the reasons but you tend to find that most organizations demonstrate that well or do you find like they're sometimes like. They're kind of missing the mark here they're not you know there's other motivations I don't know what what would be. So I think that when push comes to shove most organizations when their push can do can get there but I don't think they always present that way. I think when organizations come to speak to a funder they are always worried about what the funder wants to hear and. Those of us who've been in this role for enough time can see through that. And you're in this for the you're in this business for the work that you are we're built to do and not for me right. I love that I what you are touching on is so it's so it's so crazy but visit irony the irony is that when you go to a major donor even forget foundation just anyone who. Has you know generous deep pockets and you go to them and you ask them to give so many people talk to that donor. In the way that's like what they think the donor wants right there they're you said earlier about active listening many people don't do it they come in with like we do this we do this we just do this this and hope something. And then they'll make they'll make the ask but it's it's so it's counter intuitive because the reality is like any good partnership if you're looking for real partnership. That relationship if it's if you're just like I I mean me me you're you're not you're not going to go anywhere with it but that it's to ask good open-ended questions that are other focused. And as they came to you and said Dina you know what are your priorities you know we have something that we're working on but when it comes to this area can you communicate what those things are. And I do a good job listening and I can hear what it is maybe there's an alignment maybe not maybe maybe I hear from you and you you're interested in saving the whales and I totally missed the mark I would like you know what. Nice to see you it's nice to get you know have lunch in your office but maybe this is not going to happen right now. But I think what you're touching on is so important to go in front of a foundation people feel I need be prepared what are their priorities let me look at their 990 let me see let me look at their website. The highly spackled perfect presentation with what I think they want to hear right. So I would say the best conversations I've had with the perspective grantee I've been around their passions and my passions or the foundations passions and then figuring out where there's event. And finding that then is sometimes like the biggest like it's like a spark like oh actually we can do something like that. So you're saying this like that that is like a discovery process that needs to happen in that meeting. It can't be you can't become the highly spackled foregone conclusion like it needs to be like you know we're doing some interesting stuff we know you're doing some interesting stuff. Let's let's play in the sandbox together and see you see what's there if there's something some meat on the bone that's worth really doing something meaningful. Then let them let's rock and roll but otherwise you know let it happen organically. So I think I like to use the term exploration I think there's there is something like there's an exploration that happens that can be really excited. Now that's not to say that there aren't organizations and funders who are completely aligned from day one and it just was like perfect. But I'm thinking if you're looking to speak to a foundation that has sort of a world view instead of strategies that are not. Institution specific but there are more about a field than there's room for that exploration and I think being being being prepared to engage in that exploration in an open and honest way and saying maybe there won't be anything here but maybe there will be and maybe it'll be something down the line and not necessarily. It feels more transformative and not as transactional as it has happened in a moment so that's where again I think that patience piece comes in and creativity piece comes in and it doesn't feel like it's a failure because one meeting. Nothing comes out of it right. And if you think about it you don't want it to happen quickly because if you want something to be deeply rooted like a strong root system then that that is a necessary part of the process that like that seating and the kind of letting that develop. That whatever is going to be built on top of it is going to be have a lot more sustainability if you if you come in quickly you know like I always say with anyone like if that money comes in easy. It can leave just as easy right like it needs to be something that is really nurtured and developed and that the one that takes time is going to be the one that's with you for a long time. I think people just need to realize like sometimes instant gratification sounds nice but it's really not good for the long term so I think that's what you're describing. Absolutely absolutely. Okay so I guess my last question is really around like you know the idea of impact right I've talked to other funders and obviously organizing many organizations that have gone to foundations. There's always this this this maybe it's like a fear of like oh gosh I you know we have to be able to demonstrate the impact. What does that mean they're going to you know is this good enough you know like how do we how do we know if we're meeting their expectations on what kind of impact they want. What does your impact look like in year one? What does it look like in year three or year five right so what is what does impact mean to your foundation that you work with and if you want to talk whether it's specific micro or macro you know what is what what is funders look look for when it comes to impact and sustainability. You want to know it's going to be something that has real state how it's going to it's going to be a permanent solution or more permanent solution. So what does that mean to you in the foundation. Okay so I would say different foundations look for different things some are very data focused some are not. I would advise any one of my grants and partners to really think about creating a strong balance between you know sort of clear data metrics. Now how and needle is being moved in some way and this human nature of the work that they're doing right and there are stories that need to be told so I think some combination between day and anecdote. And I think it's important to have anecdotes not data. They're really good. And understanding you know what's qualitative and what's quantitative is important and also I would say as you learn a funder you'll start to understand what the right balance is in terms of reporting like because you'll understand what are they looking for what are the questions that they're asking are they asking more qualitative questions and more quantitative questions. So we tend to build in benchmarks to some of our grants were we're quantitative data is required. So if it's a training program. I mean I'll back to the sort of this Dresha middle school summer camp. We needed to know if this was actually a viable concept. So we set initial benchmarks for recruitment and enrollment. And let me wanted to see a study increase over the years just to know that this is something that has legs. So like that would be one issue you know one quantitative measure that we would want to know but qualitatively we wanted to go to the camp and sort of see what the curriculum was like and what the experience was like and speak to the girls and speak to the magic code and to the the educators there so there's that piece that was really important for us as well. That was all work that we had on our own like what we were invited to go so I would I would say sometimes the impact measurements are not in some fancy glossy report that you give at the end of the product or some brochure but it's actually saying come experiences with us and you can see for yourself. What where the where your funding is going and that that speaks very I mean that that has enormous impact on a funder when they're seeing how their dollars are. It's the emotional connection to skill going there and see the magic happening that can't beat that right so I think that's just something to really think about and when you can't do that are there ways that for you to be able to capture it. Whether it's testimonials or video work or something that doesn't have to be again be fancy and glossy but it is something that that funders generally feel feel good about. In terms of you know other areas of impact I would say would be about it in organizations growth so what have you learned through this process how are you tweaking a project because of what you've learned. We asked for that information in all of our grant reports like what worked and what didn't what were what was what did you expect to happen and what was what came along completely unexpected. That helped you sort of shift the way you thought about this project or did something goes so well that you're doubling down on one aspect of it and you know giving up on another aspect of it. All of those things for us show a growth mindset and you know sort of a use of data to grow institutionally and that's very important for us also helps us with our trust as we build trust with an organizational partner. That transparency is a thing key to any relationship and transparency when things are not working is I think helps leave the trust even more. I would imagine that when things don't work there's a very big fear on the organization side because they know that you're the one you know you're the one holding the purse strings and you know gosh you know how are you. Are there ways that you're able to make your grantees feel comfortable with idea that if they're going to do something you know that's growth oriented and failure is never an inevitability right not everything works all the time. So do you create an environment in some way is it is it spoken word or certain other you know things baked in that makes the organization understand like we're not expecting perfection we're expecting transparency we're expecting accountability but we're not expecting perfection and is that something that you have to be able to do you have to. So I think we should never rely on implication I think you should always be over about those kind of things I'm very explicit about the need for transparency and it's not meant as a. It's not a judgment right it's not like you had said before like we have the resources and you have the expertise and if we don't have them both together nothing is going to happen so if I were to tell you oh I actually can give you 10% less because something happened and now you can't get your project done the same way but if something's happening in the project my vision is not happening in the same way because I'm not told about it. So it really needs to be looked at as a partnership because we need each other to advance these goals. So from my perspective I want to I think one of the reasons why I invite you to speak on the practice is I've seen a lot over my many years in the field. Probably I've seen a lot of things that people have gone through and organizations have gone through and some of the challenges I want to be your partner in helping figure those things out also and if I'm not able to help you at least I understand the environment that you're operating in and so I can be more sensitive or more empathetic to the situation that's unfolding. So transparency goes a long way in number one possibly finding solutions or number two helping the funder recognize the context in which their funding is going and if something's not going to end up the way they originally intended now they understand why. Right everyone again well people were all human and we all want to see the work evolve so and the other thing I'll say is people who are funders who are putting all of their resources into philanthropy to advance these are kind well meaning well intention people who want to see good. Right so no one's going to I mean I shouldn't say no one I'm sort of plenty of people who operate differently but more often than not is going to come with the stance of that empathy and kindness and that's certainly the way that we try to show up so. I would say let's work on it together and so that's to do the transparency's important I will say I have actually ended a grant early when a grant he wasn't transparent about other funding sources or that they didn't get the other funding sources that they were hoping to. And that impinged on my ability from my grant to actually do anything so if I would have had that transparency maybe we would have said okay let's revamp the grant and let's be adjust our expectations but because it was a great of trouble. Right and because there wasn't any of that they were trying to figure out we'll figure it out when I don't have to tell them left me very uncomfortable and we actually ended a grant early. I think I think what what grantees need to keep in mind and maybe that if they if they haven't been through this experience before if they're going to come knocking on your door or anyone else's they have to understand is that you're not just about giving them the dollars you're coming with wealth of experience you know what works you know what doesn't work and yes you're learning from them as expertise as the experts in a particular field and whatever they're offering but you also know what a healthy organization looks like what what what's. And if you have them come up where I'm thinking as like a good analogy when people go out go to get investor money from like shark tank the TV show where you can you have these investors and what why would someone take Mark Rubin over Mr. Wonderful and the answer is because of their particular skill sets that they bring to the table and you're not looking at them just as a pile of money but rather what they're bringing to the table and and therefore I think that yes on the rare occasion when. A grantee is not upfront with you what they're missing is the fact that this partnership could be so much deeper if they're looking beyond like oh this is a source of a revenue or source of real to fund the program but rather as a real partner in the space if they treat like a partnership then they'll find that it pays off in even bigger ways than just the the dollars to help run the program. But I couldn't have said that better yeah well thank you I looked you know I know we're out of the end of our time now and this was incredibly incredibly helpful you know I I love seeing when I get to see you on the rare occasion at conferences and you know I look forward to maintaining regular contact with you if people have any questions or want to get in touch with you I'm not I'm going to put a disclaimer out there please don't bum rush about agent with with grant request you know it's got to happen or. If there's any take away from this conversation I hope people realize that a partnership is not you know just the open call solicitation but if people want to ask you any questions or get in touch to do what's the best way for them to do that. They can throw a website you can find my email on the website and I tried with any website to do and and I think just understanding where our funding priorities are just but at the same time I'm happy to introduce people and make connections and so you can feel free to reach out. Okay so in other words you may not be able to be responsive or you know right away you know or whatever it is but yes the and Michael Flanthropies is the name of the website Michael Flanthropies dot or correct. Yeah. Okay excellent beautiful Deena thank you so much for your time today really appreciate it and I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you. Deena great work. Thank you. Take care.