emerging from the economy of the industrial revolution. An economy confined to unlimited by the Earth's physical resources into the economy in mind in which there are no bounds on human imagination and the freedom to create is the most precious natural resource. Welcome to the Soul of Enterprise, business in the knowledge economy sponsored by Sage, energizing business builders around the world through the imagination of our people and the power of technology. I'm Ed Kles with my friend and co-host, Ron Baker and on today's show, An Interview with Peter Block. Ron, how are you today? I'm great, Ed. I'm so looking forward to this. I know you and me both. You know, we're prepping for this show. The usual term that we use when we prepped to have a guest on is marinating in their work. And you're in California and earlier you said to me that you have been marinating on Peter's work since 5am this morning. And my response was, well, I've actually been marinating on it since I think 2004. Or-- And I figured it must have been sooner than that even, Ed. But-- And before we bring Peter on, I want to make a connection for all of us. And that is, is that this show is in some ways an absolute direct result of the work of Peter Block. In that-- in-- I think it was April of 2004. I got an email from my Once in Future boss that said, I should read your book, Ron. And I think it was pretty-- it was just all caps in the subject line. Read-- so I was like, OK. And I had just finished up Peter Block's book, the answer to how is, yes. So then I picked up Professionals Guide to Value Pricing. And I called you because he had made a connection of my boss and made a personal connection to you and thought that you would be a good speaker for a leadership group that I was running. And we had you on, and we had you share your stuff on value pricing with this group. And back in 2004, there was just stunned silence. Right? So there was-- And you were very concerned that it went poorly and called me up right away and said, hey, listen, I really felt that went bad. And we just had our first conversation, really. And one of the things we got to talking about was books. And I said, well, Ron, it's OK. This book is a very influential one. And it's hard for people to get their mind around. And I said, it's weird, because I have two books back to back that have really changed my life. And immediately you asked, well, what was the other book? And I said, Peter Black, the answer to how is yes. And you ran out immediately, bought the book, called me up-- I don't know, maybe it was a day later, because you've read it straight through, and said, I can't believe you're comparing me to this guy. This is the book. And I love this quote. I wish I would have written. And on that note, Peter, I just wanted to bring you into the conversation and give you a heartfelt thank you for introducing me in a way to Ron and creating this friendship that we now have for a number of years. There's a lot of levels going on here in this conversation. It's very meta, but you've created community. Well, thank you for caring about these ideas and marinating. I feel a little guilty now. You could have started at 6 a.m. and it would have been fine. You know, it's nice to be part of your community for a little while. Thank you so much. You're most welcome. Let me get the particulars out of the way. Peter Block is an author, consultant, and I love this citizen of Cincinnati, Ohio. His work is about empowerment, stewardship, chosen accountability, and reconciliation of community. He's the author of several best-selling books. His most popular are flawless consulting, a guy to getting your expertise done, stewardship, choosing service, over-self interest, the flawless consulting field book and companion, community, the structure of belonging, which I believe has just been updated. And by the way, that is, in my opinion, the best book ever written about social media that doesn't mention social media. Freedom and accountability at work, more on that later. And of course, my personal favorite, the answer to how, is, yes, acting on what matters. Welcome to the Soul of Enterprise, officially, Peter Block. Thank you very much. Thank you. So the first question I have for you is, what did an organizational consultant in the Information Services Department at SO do in 1963? Well, look for meaningful work. I was actually an employee relations. And one of our groups we worked with was the Information Services at that time. And that was, you know, that the while ago. And they're the ones that came to us, because I wasn't doing much. They wanted to get into organizational change and stuff. And so the HR exact liked me. And then I got there and they said, why don't you revise performance or praise reforms? So I spent about a year doing nothing. And then finally, somebody came and said, you know, we have all these ideas at IT and Information Services. But nobody's acting on what we recommend. Can you help us figure out why? And that was kind of a launch to world for me. Because we've talked about consulting skills, which is having runs when you don't have control. And we didn't know that the whole world would evolve in that direction. But I was basically the first year with a gift. And then after a couple of years, they decided to do something. And they invited me into doing something. So I had a great job. I used to read my-- we were studentized then. And had hours, you know, the limited day. The work had not invaded by all of my being yet. So I leave my jacket on my chair. And then it coming at 10, 30, the next morning, it looked like I was in a meeting. And so that was a pretty-- there was a whole lot of time. That was an era of doing less with more. Outstanding. Well, how ironic that you were revising the performance or praise reforms in the end. That is the rest of my career arguing against them. So there you go. Yes. And we will definitely talk about that. In fact, we've done two shows on abolishing performance appraisals. And they're among our most popular that people go back and listen to. But next I want to jump into a little bit of your work here. And as the-- me personally, the owner and reader, by the way, of all three editions of flawless consulting, it's really-- yeah. It's fun to watch the evolution of your thinking. And I want to ask you what might be a-- I hope a challenging question-- is as you consider your career, what do you think you've changed your mind the most about? Well, I always needed teachers. And kind of each one changed my mind. The early days, I got into Gestalt therapy just as a client. And I realized that analyzing the world was useless. And out of that, inside came the flawless book, which is what do you want? What do you want? What do you want? And then at another phase, I got into the inner game of tennis with Tim Galway. And I got the idea that trying hard and judging the world was also useless. And all you had to do was pay attention. And then I kind of got into Peter Kestinbaum, a philosopher. And I always thought that if I worked with myself with diligence, I would get better, and that there was something wrong with me. And I heard him give a talk in Stockholm, actually. And what he said was that being lonely, anxious, wondering what the hell is going on and confused and lost are not personal problems. It's the nature of being a human being. And I heard that talk, and I thought, oh no. All these things had a huge impact on my life. John McNight, I heard him read this stuff and heard him talk. And he told me that people who gifts should, would matter in deficiencies, and needs are not worth paying attention to. And so all these just kind of flipped my thinking. Now, you get the idea, and it takes you six or seven years to understand what the hell they're talking about. But all of those have kind of gone against the conventional wisdom that you should work hard on yourself, that there are things wrong with you that analyzing is useful. That people learn from teaching Ken Tolt, taught Ken Asa Nevergave an instruction. And so I don't know, either all things have changed my life, and then the way I make sense of things is I write them down. And then once I write a book or write about them, then I can let go of them and create space for something else. And lately, I've been with Old Testament scholar Walter Brutman, who uses the Exodus story about the predatory economy - That's girls.
And he says, "That's what we're living in now." And that just kind of got me interested in economics. And I felt the whole premise of our current economic thinking is dehumanizing the world. So that's a long answer to a question you didn't ask, but it's the best way to do it. [laughter] But it's -- but yet a wonderful answer. And so thank you for sharing that. I feel the same way. Every author that I read has influenced me in some way. And I came across recently -- I probably a couple of years ago -- and picked up some -- Michel de Montagne, the -- I believe is a -- [laughter] -- metaphalocifer, right, who -- his dying declaration, Peter, I don't know if you heard of this, is Cousagia, which means in French, what do I know? Exactly. It's a Picasso, his last drawing, after, you know, being Picasso was a six-figure. [laughter] He deals with that. A line across is a hat. I would jagged with the nose, the chin, and he says, "That's my best painting ever." And the same idea. If it's a mouth, to be able to see things clearly and simply take some great deal of knowledge. And in the end, you realize a little -- you know, people ask the question, "Well, how did you get where you are today?" And my answer is, "I didn't get there." [laughter] And an illusion that there's a destination, no way of being that we're going to get to it someday or not. So true. I want to ask you a question about a question that I have developed and been using with people as they begin consulting engagements. You talk and pull all this consulting about three different types of consultants, a pair of hands expert and collaborators, and how all of them have their challenges. There's no sweet spot. I love the fact that it's not a two-by-two and a quadrant, by the way, right? [laughter] And you really have to think about those things. And one of the things that I've started asking people to do is draw out the triangle with those three terms and explain what they are. And then ask your prospective customer to put a dot in the triangle where they're close to. Right? So are you at the point of collaboration here or here or here? And I just -- what are your thoughts on that as a framework for getting involved in a consulting engagement to try to balance those three things? I love it. I love the visualization of it, the triangle. And I love it, I'm just the complexity of it. And you could ask the client where you -- what are you looking for? And then you could ask them where -- how do you operate? And then ask them, how do you see me? You know, we've been together 20 minutes. You know everything there is to know about me. And I think these things are -- every diagnostic tool is nothing more than the beginning of a conversation. And it's decisive what kind of conversation you can strike. And so I think it's a great way to frame it and visualize it and then say, we need to talk about how we want to work together without, you know, being too judgmental about. You know, because the hardest thing in consulting is the client wants magic. All right? They want -- everybody wants to turn key operation. And every consultant wants to deliver magic. And so what you're trying to do is to be -- we mystify the magic. Our relationship and say, you know, what is it that we can do together, together, usefully? I think this is a great launch for that conversation. How do we want to work together? And -- And -- And basically people will trust you based on the realness of your responsibilities thing. But everything you do to get the job works against you. And that's what's complicated about it. You just have to show up and say, here's what I see and here's what I want and what you want for me. Is this something that will work for us? Because in a service business, I can't afford to fail you. Because all I have is my reputation. So true. So true. All right. Well, we're up against our first break. We want to remind you that you can contact Ron or me by sending an email to ask. TSOE, the Soul of Enterprise at Verisage.com. And certainly our show notes and all previous shows are up on the Soul of Enterprise.com as well as previews to upcoming shows. But right now, a word from our sponsor, Leading Results. Follow us on Twitter at Voice America TRN. Get the low down guests, you shows and your favorites. That's Voice America TRN. Is your website just a brochure or is it your best salesperson? If your site is not the best lead generation tool you have, we should talk. We are leading results. We build websites and marketing programs that impact your bottom line. Using HubSpot or WordPress, we'll create a website and supporting marketing program that gets your business found. Converts web visitors to leads and provides clear tracking on what is and is not working. Learn about our team and approach to your success. Visit LeadingResults.com/TSOE to find out more. Have you ever read a book that changed your life? I sure have. But have you ever read a book where the forward changed your life? Me neither. Hello, I'm Greg Kaik. I wrote the forward to Ron Baker and Ed Kles's new ebook, The Soul of Enterprise. Dialogues on Business and the Knowledge Account. The value of this book is found entirely in its forward. So when you buy it, think of it as buying the forward and getting the rest of the book for free. Available now for download exclusively on Amazon.com. The Business Communities' first choice in Internet Talk Radio. Voice America Business Network. You are tuned into The Soul of Enterprise with Ron Baker and Ed Kles. To find out more about our show, visit us on the web at TheSoulOfEnterprise.com. You can also chat with us on Twitter using #AskTSOE. Now back to The Soul of Enterprise. Welcome back, everybody. We're honored to be here with author Peter Wach. Peter, your book, The Answer to How is Yes, which like Ed said, I read it and just blew my mind. I did think, "I wish I could have written this book." You just articulated everything I believe but could never have put it in such beautiful words and prose as you did. But I wanted to ask you about the epigraph to the book because it is so counterintuitive. The epigraph is, "Transformation comes more from pursuing profound questions than seeking practical answers." And that is so counterintuitive to a business audience that thinks everything has to be practical. Can you kind of unpack that for me? If you want tomorrow to be just like yesterday, then methodology will get you there. And most of us with a short time perspective and a bias towards things working and being predictable. So it's really a philosophical question. How much predictability you require in your world? But if you want a predictable world, you'll never be surprised. And so if your transformation matters to you, if you want tomorrow to be different than yesterday, you can't engineer your way into it because everything you engineer will be from yesterday's mind. Yesterday's way of thinking. I think the mind of the Margarit research got fired. So what happened is, well, I was unable to take unpredictability out of the future. And I thought, wow, that's quite amazing. That would be an expectation. So it's kind of not a. nothing wrong with being practical. At the end of the day, you know, make a list and do something about it. But if you start with the desire for practicality, if you start by asking where else has this work, how long will it take? How much will it cost? How fast can we move? If you ask those questions, then tomorrow is just going to be like yesterday. Now, if you're a monopoly business here, then they'd shake. If you hold the only Barbie shop within 100 miles of care, but if you have a thought, the feeling, the intuition, the desire to do something change in the world, then you can't start with being practical. Because you'll just recreate yesterday. And that's as unclear as I can be. Right. No, that's excellent. I mean, one of our favorite lines is creativity always takes us by surprise.
otherwise we wouldn't need it and we could predict it. And so, you know, asking questions leads to new ways of thinking and innovation and creativity. Your six questions, I have to tell you, I mean, they're Ed and I now are, when we hear somebody ask a question in one of our workshops and they start with how it's like a trigger warning, it goes off in our mind because we know they're usually asking the wrong question. Like you say in the book, it's not that the how questions don't need to be answered. They do. It's just that most people tend to put them at the start. I just want to ask you how did you notice that? Was it from teaching just so much and then just recognizing how many questions came up that started out? I just, it's so painful. You know, if you're trying to create something unique in the world, which all of us are, the resistance is overwhelming and you try to make sense of the resistance in a way that doesn't, isn't judgmental or treat anybody any different than yourself. And it just, it just don't make it. Most of the reasons not to do something had to do with the practical. The argument against democracy is it costs too much and takes too long. That's the attraction we have for Pharaoh's Egypt. That's the attraction we have for a leader of certainty. And so it's, you know, it's me trying to understand my failures in a way that didn't always blame the other person. And I say, well, it's a way of thinking. And it's a long, impracticality. And it was a last chapter of the stewardship book that I just had as a throwaway chapter talking about nothing. And then my publisher Steve from Bear Colour, there's a once you write a book on that last chapter. And so I thought Steve was right. It's a tough issue. And you stated it perfectly. It's not an argument against methodology. It's an argument against starting there. And I used to do this people and say, well, when do we get down to practicality? I said, we're going to get there. But this afternoon, this afternoon they say, aren't we going to get practical? I said, yeah, we are. We'll get there at the end of the day. And so if you can postpone the practical discussion, then maybe people will talk about the deeper questions, your value question, and ask, you know, what's the point? What are we trying to create here? Who are we together? And it helps people get connected questions, bring people together answers, drive a certain art, ideology, the conflict you see in the world. There's people thinking they're right and being more wedded to their ideology than working something out. And I found the math teacher. And she said something that just, you know, I can't ever forget. She said, well, what I do is create a classroom where the students fall in love with each other. And the presence of a math teacher. And I thought, now that's practical. But people don't get connected. They can't learn. And the questions are that we use, mostly their goal is to bring an intimacy into a world where people are deeply isolated and disconnected. That's beautiful. You know, the other insight that just really is just one of those, we call it a "buke wake," you know, when your mind has just been totally snuck up. Like right moment. Don't you just love those moments? Oh, I live for those moments. And your book was full of up. And the thing that really struck me, Peter, is when you talk about, when people start with these how questions, how do you do it? How long will it take? And how do we get these other people to change? And all of those questions, it's because those are defense mechanisms because they don't want to change. And it's so true. No matter how well you answer those questions, they'll go, well, that doesn't apply to me. They're different from us or whatever. I mean, that is such a profound psychological insight into how humans resist change. Yeah, in a few words. Yeah, no, go ahead, please. I wasn't the question. I was just statement. But the language, for me, it's an escape from accountability. It's an escape from choice. I don't think humans resist change. I think they resist coercion. And I think they're frightened of the unpredictability of change and so am I. It's just part of our nature. And really the questions of how are you rightfully you said it? They are defense, but they're defense against being accountable. Defense against the idea that the world is mine to create. And I would rather choose safety over adventure. And so you're trying to create conditions where people feel safe enough in the room or with you or with God or something. So they can put themselves at risk, which they've been longing for all along. And so I just had the point of view in the world and with myself, because we're no different, that if I can see that it's my anxiety about control, then the fact that I was afraid of being accountable for myself in the world. And once I can name that, then I'm up for something. I'm ready to take a chance and good questions, you know, what's your contribution to the power? I really questions that confront people with their freedom. And that's what I'm terrified of. We're all afraid of our freedom. But in the end, with the support of people like you and these language, I would say, well, I'm afraid of my freedom and here I go. Some people can do that at the age of 12. You can do it with your last breath. And that's a good point about being a defensive against being accountable. And then you go on to say, these how questions, all of this is a wish to go to heaven and not have to die. And I just thought, wow. I don't know what I heard that, but I'm glad I repeated it. It's just the profound thought. This is the promise of the modern economy. All right. This promise that somehow, if I can tell you on a device or a lotion or something, you can be the person you want to be and all you have to do is supply it. And it's the illusion of convenience. I like the fact that I have a washing machine, but it's not life changing. And so I did a wish for a free ride. And some of that wish is a sense of entitlement that I earned the free ride. And I think that entitlement comes from having chosen safety and choosing safety. You can eye your own humanity. And because you feel your humanity has slipped away maybe in the form of the company I work for, the box I have, everybody has an excuse. But once I feel my humanity is slipping away, then I feel I do something. And what I, what's owed me is heaven without heaven to die. I just, I just love that that I have to get your take on this Peter. Because when I read the book, what came to my mind when I read those questions and how you shouldn't start with the, how do you do it? How much it cost? All of those things. I thought about the signers of the Declaration of Independence. And I thought about when Thomas Jefferson said, come up here and put your John Hancock on this. And if he would have got these questions, these how-to questions, you know, like how much does it cost? And he might have said something like, well, possibly your life, you know, sign here. I mean, is that kind of a valid image? Yes. Beautiful. That document was an act of faith in the other human being. It was purely an act of faith. And it's the same when we're deciding anything now. We're having to recreate the Declaration of Independence every day of our lives. And you see how fragile it is and how even then it took, you know, we still trying to figure how to act on it. And I think that it's just, you know, so at the end of the day, leadership is an act of faith. Invention is an act of faith. And that's why connection, that's why our isolation leads us to loss of faith and deep cynicism. That's what you see in the national scene now. It's just unbelievable cynicism. There is no base, you know, that's an illusion. But you write, and I always felt it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. Just do you have faith that you can create something in the world and live with the consequences. because there's no such thing as
happy ending. >> I'm glad. >> This is Mark and happy ending. Save me from two doors. And the false promise that anything's going to work out. Well, everything's not going to work out. And you and I are just going to be fine. >> I love that. We walked by faith, not sight. Well, Peter, this has been fantastic. Unfortunately, we're up against the break. I knew the time would just fly on the show. But folks, I'd like to remind you, if you want to contact Ed or myself, do so by sending us an email at
[email protected]. Please head along over to iTunes and give us a rating and a review. We'll give you a shout out on the show. And it helps us get guests of the caliber of Peter Block. And now we want to hear from our sponsor, Advocates Next. [MUSIC] >> Thank you for seeing everything there is to see an online television. Let us surprise you. Visit voiceamerica.tv today for sports, health, business, and more on demand 24/7. >> Results CRM. The award-winning Abacus Next product is a customer relationship management solution that will automate your business processes, streamline workflows, and deliver consistent results. Cloud-enabled to provide access to your users anytime, from anywhere. Grow your business in 2018 with the number one QuickBooks CRM. To learn more about Results CRM, visit ResultsCRM.com. >> Clouds come in all shapes and sizes. And the Abacus Private Cloud is the perfect fit. Abacus Cloud enables all the desktop apps you know and love while providing unparalleled security to your business. Cloud functionality gives you the flexibility to work where you want, when you want, and from any device you want. Don't waste countless hours managing IT. Take back your time. Learn more at abacusnext.com. >> Have you ever read a book that changed your life? I sure have. Me neither. Hello, I'm Greg Kite. I wrote the forward to Ron Baker and Ed Kles's new e-book, The Solom Enterprise. Dialogues on business and the knowledge economy. >> When it comes to business, you'll find the experts here. >> You were tuned into The Solom Enterprise with Ron Baker and Ed Kles to find out more about our show. Visit us on the web at TheSoulofEnterprise.com. Now back to The Solom Enterprise. >> And we are back on The Solom Enterprise with Peter Block. Peter, this has been an incredible half hour and we've still got another 30 minutes to go. I wanted to just pick up a little bit on the conversation that you were having with Ron about this notion of freedom and accountability. And of course, your book Freedom and Accountability at Work Applying, a philosophical insight to the real world with Peter Kostinbaum. And one of the things I took away from that book, and I have to admit, I did not look at that in preparation. I was working on some other of your work. But what's in my mind anyway, is this notion that freedom and accountability are really the same thing. And I want to share with you the retrospective insight. I guess that's the way to put it that I had. I have a minor in musical theater. And my major is in business. But guess which one I use more in my business career? I was in the theater. And I had the honor to play a character called Pippen when I was just out of college. And I don't know if you're aware of the story, but it's kind of an every man kind of deal. And at the end of the show, Pippen is stripped bare of everything. He's got nothing left but his intended bride and time and her son. And he sings this lyric that I sang thousands of times getting ready to do this show. And I never understood it until having read freedom and accountability. So I want to share with you the lyrics. I'm going to sing to you if you don't mind. And the lyric is this. I'm not a river or a giant bird that soars to the sea. But if I'm never tied to anything, I'll never be free. And I just that notion of what Stephen Schwartz wrote in that musical. If I'm never tied to anything, I'll never be free. And it hit me really 20 years later reading that book. So so thank you for that connection point. And having such a profound insight on me. So thanks. Thanks for the song. It's beautiful. You know, you can make a distinction between freedom and liberty. And liberty is the absence of oppression. And freedom is the act of commitment. It's the act of it's a choiceful act to have an intention to create a certain kind of world. And it's very terrifying to be accountable for that. One of the ways that people get confronted with their freedom is if you ask people, what are your gifts? What are you good at? But get to you yet to bring in fully to the world. And people can talk about the efficiencies with total comfort. Because it's a great place to hide. I'm not this. I'm not that. I'm too young. Everybody has a story about their age or their history or their background. Everybody, you know, if you say, "Why am I this way?" Well, I have a story. My favorite sentence is in Russia, even the past is unpredictable. Which means it's all made up. And so you become free when you choose the world. Choose, you know, find your voice. But if you don't attach to something that's just a beautiful song, then you don't know. You have no sense of who you are. And it's too easy to think that freedom is the absence of being accountable. And it's just the opposite. Another phrase I got from Peter Gastonbaum, who I did a book with, it says, "When you're drowning, die if you go deep in. And if you're caught by the undertow of the ocean, if you swim against it, it will exhaust you. If you let it push you out the sea, it will kill you. But if you go deeper, beneath it, then you can swim to the side and save your life." And I thought that was beautiful from Peter. Yeah, great stuff. I'm going to share with you curiously an email that I got this morning. I'm presenting at a conference in a couple of months. And one of the things that this conference shared is this. This is respectfully, and by the way, respectfully is involved. We remind you that of our participation requirements, which I thought was interesting. But it was respectful. Number one, be present, which, you know, that's good. Number two, if you're open to change and adopting a better way to do things, please attend the conference. I thought that was good. Then it goes this way. Access the internet during breaks, not during presentations. If you're reading an email or using a mobile device during the meeting, you will be asked to leave and not return. And. But so they started out well, right? And my response to this person was, well, as a presenter, here's the way I look at it. My job is to be more interesting than your email. And if I'm not, you should do your email. I love it. Exactly. And of course, of course, of engagement, you know, I understand the concern. We used to run workshops and I'd say, all of you, please take your cell phones and put them in this box and you'll get them back during the break. And half the people wouldn't do it. They're in the hospital. They had to get them. They're taking on the issue, but they take it on in a prescriptive way. I don't do much anymore. I do workshops and people. I do some classes. I'm going to be on their cell phone. I just walk up to them. I said, who are you talking to? You go towards it. Who are you talking to? I'm making arrangements for tonight. I said, what are you doing tonight? You know, because it tends to span. What do you do with it? And I agree with what you said. That they're bored. That's my responsibility. That's why I always break people into small groups after 15 minutes. Because I know that they'll find from each other maybe what they couldn't find from me. And on that, the medicine is that they think that saying this to you now is a good thing.
effective. That's the weirdest thing. There's nothing that makes me more leader-room than somebody telling me to be pleasant. And that can be legislated. That's the real weirdest, even though the content is spying. I and on that notion of small groups, you know, one of the things that run and I talk about on this show often is that it's it is the creativity and innovation that happens and it's unfortunate that far too many institutions, you know, government, big, big business, even churches to a certain extent, are really more about the preservation of the status quo. And it's, and it's our belief that the entrepreneur, the small organization, is the one place where they say, no, no, no, what can I do to to disturb the status quo today? I need to innovate. I need to create something new. And I ask a question that I get asked a lot. So is that scalable? Or can that only really be done in small groups? You know, it's not that people want the status quo. It's just that they're cautious about pretty at risk with they think they have. I think the small group, the small business, the economy I believe in is the neighborhood economy. Not the city economy, not the global economy. The question of scalability that might thinking about it is that yes, you can scale it, but what you're arguing, but it's scaling is to aggregate many small things without making them the same. And so, take for example cooperative enterprise. It's kind of reclaiming from privatization. What's ours? The whole, well, we need to organize all the cooperative enterprises. Not ask them to be the same. Not ask the ball be Wal-Mart's. Or Amazon, because I think you can be there are some benefits to scale the size just in terms of the strength and your voice. It gets us into the megaphone. Because right now most of the real radical change that's happening, you'll never read the newspaper. You'll never hear it on the news. And so to me, the scale question, most of the time when it's asked, it's a long question. It's a demand to make everything that commodify, unify, a demand to take human beings. In the tech world, they say, well, we want a frictionless process. And with that code, let's take a person out of it. And the bot world, and the AI world, and all of that. But I do think what you can do with your program is you're trying to aggregate away thinking, but not by making it standardized. So there's a place for a movement to occur. I'm just not sure where it is and what it's going to happen. Well, this will be my last two minutes with you before Ron comes on. And again, just want to mention a couple of thank yous for some of the ways that you have changed my life. And that is that when I give a presentation and where it's at all feasible, I do, as you recommend, in community, stand in the back of the room and welcome people into the room. And I can't tell you what a difference that makes. So anyone who's listening to us who does presentations, just this whole notion of greeting people when they come in and making that personal connection, even before you start to talk, what an important thing that has been for me. So thank you for that. Thank you for that piece of advice. And just the whole book of community, I have structured just about every write up abstract for something that I'm giving based around your whole notion of state what the possibility is, offer the challenge, offer the invitation. And so thanks for those two ideas. Thank you so much, it's really. You know, the reason to welcome people in the room is for our own redemption because to be a speaker is deeply isolated. And I welcome people in the room. I always break people in small groups even if there's 5,000 in the room and I know a thing comfortable. Write your mother. You know, people say, I didn't come here for small groups. I know. I know you didn't come here. I feel for you breaking the small groups. And then I join them. I join a small group just so I feel connected to the world. Otherwise, the speaking is isolated and of itself. And I also have the belief that what you hear in a group of three is a piece of an organism called the whole room or the whole culture. And so everything we're dealing with has a metaphor. Connection, I see it in a small of 369, whatever we're in. But I know if I pay attention to what's going on in that small circle, it connects me to the world. And I don't have to, you know, survey. I don't have to measure my value by number of followers or number of likes that I get. I can find it out in four minutes. Just the three of us can find it out in two minutes when we started this call. Outstanding. Well, thanks again, Peter. We're up against this next and our last break. But want to remind you that you can contact Ron or me by sending an email to AstiSOE. The website, of course, is theSoulofEnterprise.com. Show notes from previous shows as well as listen to shows. And then previews to upcoming shows. But right now, a word from our sponsor and my employer, Sage. [Music] Become our friend on Facebook. Host your thoughts about our shows and network on our timeline. Visit facebook.com/voisamerica. Wherever your business is headed, Sage has the cloud solution you need to enable mobile accounting and simplify financial management. Discover how moving your financial data and accounting processes to the cloud can transform your business. Cloud accounting software from Sage can help you make better decisions, drive faster responses and gain greater control. That's cloud accounting for the journey. For more information, visit sage.com/us/soe. There is no blueprint for running the perfect firm. No way to know the challenges you'll face. But your journey does not have to be an odyssey. Experience what it is like for every part of your firm to be connected. Experience a practice management tool where everything is just a click away. Experience office tools. To learn more, visit officetools.com. I sure have. Me neither. I wrote the forwards Ron Baker and Ed Kles's new e-book, The Solon Enterprise. When it comes to business, you'll find the experts here. You are tuned into The Solon Enterprise with Ron Baker and Ed Kles. Now, back to The Solon Enterprise. Well, welcome back. Everybody we're here with Peter Block. And Peter, we did our first show on, you know, coming, overcoming Frederick Taylor and the whole scientific management movement and, you know, escaping from the tyranny of efficiency and this kind of measurement mania that happens in business. And I love, I always loved to quote Ed when I can, even though this is not his most grammatical statement. But Ed's got a great line that was quoted in Harvard Business Review, Business Ain't Science. And I just wanted to get your reaction. When I think about airplanes and boats and bridges, we can build those and 100% of planes will fly and 100% of boats will float, 100% of bridges will stand. But when you look at businesses and marriages, the success rate is much lower than that, even though we've been doing those things a lot longer. And I think that's because, you know, the planes and the boats are material, but we humans are spiritual. And they're and we're more complicated than physical things. And I know you touch on these themes in your book, but I just were obsessed with measuring everything and treating business like science. And it's not. React to that. Well, to me, you know, there was a time when a culture was dominated by either the Pope or the emperor or the government. Now it's dominated by the globalization of a culture. And it doesn't bother me that the institutions don't last forever. You know, and the challenge is that the boat and the bridge are right in the airplane are extremely competitive.
But they don't change my life. They're not what life is about. And so I don't want to be distracted by the miracle, and the amazing technology that exists in the world, but I don't want it to tend like it matters. People say, "Well, what do you think of the Internet in social media? I think it's cute." And what about coding the world in your pocket and yourself? Well, I have flat screens all around me. And I think they're fine. They're nice. They're not, but they don't count. It doesn't bring us closer together. It's because I have friends in India. I can not be in touch with it. It didn't bring us closer together. And so I just want to, I think, the love of the efficiency, the romanticization of the airplane, is mostly designed to sell seats. And so what works for marketing, is that what works for it. Business is fine, but it's not the point. And it's become the point that I feel I want to organize my life around efficiency and cost, and speed, and I've lost the part of myself. I've lost my dinner hour. I've lost the connection with the people of my neighbors. I've gone inside and they're back. And I've been thinking about the fact that I'm not in touch with them. And they're family, and they call it a neighborhood. And so there's a lot going on. They're down involved in it. Well, your child will be much better off with nine people on your street, know their name, and they've done research to say that's true. But you'll live your health with a better off if you belong to an association. They'll live a year longer if you join something where people show up together. And so all the things that we care about is raising a child and having a livelihood caring for the elderly and people vulnerable on the family has to do with our connectedness to each other. And the airplane can't do that. And I think the bridge can't and the boat can't do that. So it's also worth it being false idols. And now the idols are the idols of the industry, the accomplishments of the industry that you're magical. I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they make an airplane. I used to consult with Boeing, and they love it. But it's not the point. And when you talk about enterprise and you're a branding, they use the word soul for their reason. And the enterprise, it's very challenging. And the thing that we do is we're working on our work is to allow soul to enter the enterprise. And we do that by having space for Mr. Contradictability and deciding that face-to-face relationships are life-changing. And the technology, you know, eyes in our eyes, the first computer is their God. And the computer answered, "There is now." You know, you're so right about the connect. We're just made to connect. And I know man's an island. I remember a study. They looked at Utah and Nevada. Very similar states, very similar demographics. But the Utah had much longer life spans and healthier lives than Nevada. And the theory was there were more connected. We've only got a couple minutes here, Peter. But I just want to ask you one last thing. Another one of my favorite lines from your book is this. An idealist is one who follows their ideals even to the point of impracticality. And I just want to ask you, do you see enough idealists today or have we become a complacent class? Well, I think cynicism is an idealist. The cynic is an idealist who's lost their faith. And I think we're losing faith. And so idealism now is an accusation. It's not something to appreciate. And so what you're doing with your program and what we're in this together is to support the idea of prophecy. And idealism. And after a while, when people accused me of being too idealistic, I always said thank you. Well, Peter, thank you again so much. This has been just fascinating. And I have to have you back because we didn't get to attend to what I wanted to ask you. But again, thank you. How about this afternoon? Thank you. Thank you so much for appearing on the Soul of Enterprise. Ed, whether we have on store for next week. Next week, Ron, we are going to talk about why quality is defined by your customer, not you. Excellent. I will see you in 167 hours. This has been the Soul of Enterprise, business and the knowledge economy, sponsored by Sage. Energizing business builders around the world through the imagination of our people and the power of technology. Join us next week on Friday at 4 p.m. Eastern 1 p.m. Pacific. In the meantime, please do visit us at www.TheSoulOfEnterprise.com. [Music]
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