Episode 183: Good jeans

(gentle piano music) - What's up gamers, I'm Tori Dominguez-Peak. - And I'm Noah Hertz, and I'm Nathaniel Wilson. - It's the Gen Z video game podcasts, and I know it doesn't like change the fact that we're Gen Z because generations don't work like that, but like, I got some grays that I notice the other day, and I'm like, fuck me. (laughing) - Oh my god, really? - Yeah, I got like a little patch on my beard that like, I was convinced was just blonde growing in, but like, now that's just like, that's just like gray, and then Christine was like, you've got this little patch up and like, by your sideburns, that's like, it's covered up by a layer of hair normally, but she's like, now there's like some grays up here too, and I'm like, man, fuck me. Like, (laughing) - That's crazy. - I've long hoped to go fully gray before I go bald because it just seems fun. - Yeah, the gray hair seems fun. Would there be that big of a problem with you going bald though since you like shave your head down pretty close so often? - No, I'm not afraid of it, really. I would even, like, I'm not even afraid of like the, the old dudes who like have the shiny up top, but then grow out the sides of that. - I love the Larry David. - Yeah, yeah, or like the Stevie Wonder where he has the dreadlocks that go down to his butt, but they like start at his crown because he's fully bald up top. - No, it's a good look. - Like any time you see like an older dude that's bald up top, but it's like pulling his side and back hair into like a ponytail. Like that's fucking awesome. - Yeah. - Yeah, I respect the hell out of that. I respect the hell out of that. - Any, I mean, not even dudes just like old people of all genders who have long hair, I appreciate it, because it's like, I don't know. Old people sometimes can kind of just become person if that makes sense where it's just like you kind of morph into this sexless, old, short-haired person, right? And so it's like, I love to see an old person on long hair. - If you listen to our show and you're over the age of 60, I wanna apologize by the way too, for some of this, but I don't think there's many of you out there. - Whoa, I'm not saying that to you. I said some. - Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that to you. - I'm not saying that to you. - I think it makes you look useful. I do wonder at some point in like my late 30s, it's gonna flip and it's gonna like a boilify me. And then once I hit that wall, please let me know. - A boilify you. - And then I'm gonna get like a fuck-ass bob. - Hell yeah. The fuck-ass bob. - I think the fuck-ass bob rules. - Yeah, I love the fuck-ass bob. - Both of my Tias are in their 40s and they now both have fuck-ass bobs and they look so good. - Yeah. - These have super long hair like waist length hair and now they both have bobs, but like, they're like not caring bobs, they're like chic. - Okay. - So I can see myself get in there. - I like that. - I like the old lady haircut where it's like the front of your head kind of looks like a crown or there's like a circle of hair coming out. You know what I'm talking about? You have like kind of a donut looking thing at the front. No, not back, not back because I mean like, you know how with the crown there's like the center point and all the hair grows in different directions out of the center. You like the, there's like this, like where you can have it in the front. - Like bangs, but they pull out at the front center. - Exactly. And it like legitimately looks kind of like a donut where it's like going down in the center and coming out. - We're losing those recipes, that's from the 80s. - No, no, 'cause like I was telling you guys before we started, I've been watching all these old movies, like these Robert Altman movies. - True. - Crazy 70s haircuts. But mainly on the women, crazy. - That's a good point. Yeah, there's like whole genres of old people that we're just losing because those styles are not being carried forward into the future generations. - Well, the thing is that old people haircuts are just haircuts that were popular 50 years ago and they just kept getting their hair cut the same way. - True, true. - So like it's gonna be funny when people who have like an undercut are people who have like baby bangs or whatever or like a fucking broccoli cut is gonna be a specific of a being old. - I'm thinking like the like the wolf cuts that like everyone knows at least one lesbian with the wolf cut. Like that on an old lady is gonna go fucking crazy. - Yeah. - It's like the meme that's like what we refer to as dad jeans and it's the baggy jeans and then it's like what dad jeans actually are. - Yeah. - It's the skinny jeans. - Yeah. - Because skinny jeans is the dad jeans, man. - Whenever I've gone to like a place where there's lots of kids and families, like I went to like a brewery, there's like a lot of middle age folks, they have kids whatever or like play around when I'm like with my niece or nephew, all the dads got skinny jeans and vans and I'm like, this is where we are. - No, I was in-- - I'm just gonna apologize right here to chase all of her. I know this is getting, he's gonna talk about this on his podcast, he's, it's just gonna be like gun shots going off every sentence we say. It's just another shot to the heart. - I was traveling this weekend, this week for Thanksgiving and like in the airports I was in, I tell you, I don't think I've ever seen more children in those airports and yeah, Tori, I saw a lot of skinny jeans. I saw a lot of skinny jeans, I saw a lot of polo shirts tucked in the skinny jeans and like had a pre-vision where I was like, this will not be me, I must combat this. - Yeah. - I'll see like, Noah, you know 'cause you were here so recently, they're like tearing up all of Burlington and redoing all the roads and so there's construction everywhere. The construction workers be wearing some like tight-ass jeans, like I go out and I'm like, you, Mr. Manly Man, a construction man, you have like some skinny tight jeans on. (laughing) - The thing is like, this is the thing about - I'm just like, get a pair of dicks or something, man. - They're gonna be so much more comfortable. - The mainly, culturally accepted tightness of your jeans is like, it just gets harder to find the opposite. Like I remember when I wanted skinny jeans a decade ago. They were hard to find and I remember like, after I graduated high school and like I was buying women's pants 'cause I couldn't find men's pants that were tight enough. And now I can't find men's pants that are baggy enough because it's like, we call skinny slim but we also call it straight. Like they're, if you go to like rebass and look at like the slim and the straight and the skinny, it's like very different and it's like, I don't want, I don't want it to be touching all parts of my leg. - I wanted to touch no part of my leg. - Yeah, Jesse doesn't really like skinny jeans. He's also like a guy who has like thicker legs. So he always buys jeans that are called like athletic fit or something and that's like another word for like jeans that are baggy for men. - Tapered is what they are. The athletic fit is skinny at the bottom and wide at the top. I hate those diaper jeans. I can't do it. 'Cause for me it's like, I like my pants to cover the top of my shoe a little bit. And so that's my issue with the tapered pants. It's 'cause I'm coming at it from the same place. Yes, I'm coming at it from the same place where like got some butt, got some thighs, pants are, I'm also short like Jesse. - Short of a butt is like a press class. I've learned this. - Incredibly hard to buy pants for. And so it's like the way that they combat it is by making them wide at the top but they still make them skinny at the bottom. And I just can't handle a pair of tapered jeans like it makes my blood beautiful. - So like the jeans are always getting marketed to me as a woman are the, I think they're called like balloon pants. Have you seen those? The ones that are like. - No, I'm looking it up. - I think they're called balloon jeans. Yeah, so they're like super like wide and they make you look like they're bow-legged. I'm always getting marketed these, always. And I don't think they look good on me. I think you feel like maybe like really tall they might look good on you, like that sort of thing. But like I will look like a clown if I wore these. Like these, yeah, these look, they're so bizarre. Every time I go into some like bougie clothing store I go like made well. - They just look like you're wearing a skirt. - And it's like, it's like woman's work utility balloon jean. And it's like $300 and I'm like, what the fuck? Wear them to yoga. They're nice for yoga, I would've seen. Yeah, not jeans, but like the balloon pants. Like I searched balloon pants. A lot of these seem to be knocked at them. I think they'd be good for yoga. - Why are they like those long pants? - Barrel, barrel jeans. They're called barrel jeans, not balloon jeans. That's what they call barrel-like jeans. - I like that our heads, that our head space is talking about, don't stop us. No, I don't do it. - I'm sorry. - I like that we're, I'm stopping y'all. I'm stopping pivoting, I'm pivoting. I like, we're thinking about generations. And we're thinking about generational differences. And the first video game news story that I want to talk about today because this is ostensibly a video game podcast. But like only in the roughest way sometimes. Known homophobe, transphobe misogynist, who's also known for his work directing some of the best JRPGs in relatively recent memory at Atlas, like the Persona games and Metaphori Rifantazio, Katsura Hashino, gave a talk recently at this big event in South Korea where he tried to classify the history of the RPG into generations. And it's really funny. - The JRPGs. - Sorry, specifically JRPGs, yes. It's very funny reading about this because it reads a lot like the way Crypto Bros talk about the internet. And I think, I think if we were to extrapolate this just a little more, I could see where that was going. But basically in Hashino's talk, he talks about how JRPG 1.0 is-- - Honestly quote unquote, he sort of into like two classes, honestly. - This is true. Yeah, it's hard to even really call it truly generations. It's two classes. The first one is JRPG 1.0, which is the true classics, he says, from the era of the NES through at least the PS2 according to this Kotaku article that we are pulling this info from. Then there's JRPG 2.0, which is like forward into what is presumably now, yeah, exactly. Including the Kotaku article pegs it to some of the games that Hashino worked on like Persona 4 through Meta 4. And Hashino talks about how we're heading towards JRPG 3.0. He says, according to a translation of his talk, there will be a greater dimension to these games and they'll change the genre's structure and presentation at a fundamental level. I think all of this is kind of just gobbledygook. I mean, I think it's impossible to ignore the fact that Hashino has been involved in making some really incredible video games. But I'm curious to your guys' opinions about the future of the JRPG. There's a good line in this Kotaku article that says, this is the very beginning. It says people talk about turn-based role-playing games and JRPGs the way academics fret about the novel. Much ink is spilled over what defines the form and whether it's dead, only for a great piece of work to come along and briefly revitalize hope that it's alive and relevant is ever. And a lot of this Kotaku article kind of ties this to Clare of Scare. Again, I have not played, but I know one of the people in this podcast has very strong feelings about. I don't know, what do you guys think? Do you guys think that we are near-- we are heralding the start of a new era of JRPGs? Is it NFTs? Is that what's going to be new? I don't think it's that. The thing about Clare of Scare to me is that Clare of Scare, in the combat, you are blocking and parrying-- you're reacting to it in a timed way. And that's not the first turn-based RPG that has done that. You know who also did that? Super Mario RPG. It's not even that new of a mechanic. They definitely dressed it up and made it more higher stakes. Clare of Scare did. But I'm not sure-- I would consider Clare of Scare to be this new class of JRPG. I don't know. One thing that does kind of concern me, though, is like, are we going to get to this point where it's like in order for JRPGs to evolve, they need action? Because at that point, what genre are we talking about now? Well, that's what Square Enix has been trying to do for, I don't know, 15, 20 years at this point. Like, they've been trying it with Kingdom Hearts and some of the more recent final fantasies trying to iterate. And it's true, and that's why I thought what's so interesting about this was this idea that it's a dying genre, which is like-- it's a lot of people fretting over whether turn-based RPGs are a dying genre or not. And I don't think I really buy into that. I think there's-- no, I don't think they are either. But it's really interesting the way in which the-- I don't think there's any other genre that games media and game developers talk about the way they talk about the turn-based RPG. Nobody's like worried that platformers are going to die. You know what I mean? It's like, I think it's because turn-based RPGs have always kind of been a bit of an abstraction for gameplay that old games were not really able to fully capture. But they weren't-- they were trying to capture the feeling of playing Dungeons and Dragons also. And Dungeons and Dragons has not changed that much in 40 years. So I don't know. It's just weird. It's so interesting. And it's really interesting to hear it come from somebody who has been so involved in developing RPGs for the past 20 years, too. It sounds like something that someone would say, standing on stage in front of a bunch of people that they're trying to raise money from. Like it's very much giving the Kesam Bankman-free memes that are like, just wait until 5.0. All I need is one more round of funding. Just wait. I don't know. I feel like this has less to do with the genre itself and has more to do with the discussions that have come out of Clare Obscure. And so I don't know. I think we will never be at a point where certain games come out and launch us into giant discourse cycles and that really feels like all this is. I don't know. I'm still, and I'm with you now. I have not played Clare Obscure. But I am still not sold on the idea that people are going to be talking about this game in like a year or two, because I think that a lot of the things that keep it in the conversation is like discourse-based more than it is about the game itself. Even like metaphor, I feel like I don't hear people talking about that game. And so people moved on from that so fast, yeah. And I wonder if maybe that's just kind of the place that we are moving in gaming discourse in general. I think that's something we've talked about all year, whether it be Mario Kart or Donkey Kong coming out this year. And then people are so excited. And then it drops, and then we don't hear about it. I don't know. I think the idea that we can quantify this big-ass genre of video games into two classes, one being through PS2 and the other one being up to now is just so silly. But it's ridiculous. I also have been thinking about what you said, Tori, of just like, can discourse like this be potentially? And I don't know if Harmful is the right word, but I'm going to use it, like, harmful to the genre, to the point where the games in this genre have to become not JRPGs in ways, including action combat. Or like, I know the Clare Obscure had like the only up type shit where you have to climb up and fall down. And I wonder if we're going to hit a point with RPGs and turn based in JRPGs, where it's like, in order to be seen as on the cutting edge of the genre, you have to make your game less and less like the genre. Yeah. And like, I'm not-- I don't know if I'm that worried about that given that people were saying this exact same kind of shit in like the PS3 360 era when they were like, there were fewer RPGs, turn based RPGs that were making like enormous headlines the way there were compared to what there were in like the PS2, PS1 era. And so there was a big sense of like, we're losing this genre and only some devs from Japan who have been doing this are making these. And then it's like, then you get a Persona 4 or Persona 5, I mean. Then you get a Persona 5 and Persona 5 completely changes the way people talk about this stuff because of how not necessarily action the gameplay is, but just like how fresh it felt in UI design and style and all this stuff. So I'm not personally worried about the turn based RPG going anywhere, but yeah, I don't know. As long as JRPG 3.0 is not like a generative AI or NFT shit. I'm going to be so thrilled to do it. It probably is. It probably will be. Definitely. At least in some people's minds, it probably will be. For Square Enix, or like, here's that Chocobo NFT. Right. Oh my god, yes. Give me the Chocobo NFTs. Well, if we're going to talk about AI and stuff, I think there's definitely some stories this week involving AI and games and such, correct? Yeah, there was a story that I pulled in here from Eurogamer, which is basically like Tim Sweeney, the Epic Games CEO, pushing back on steam labeling games as having tagging games on the store with AI, which I haven't seen. I don't know what that looks like or what's really going into that process, but I know in kind of an interview and then posting on socials that Tim Sweeney's point was kind of, what is the point in labeling things as using AI in their creation? Because we are quickly hurtling towards a point where every single thing that's going to end up on these storefronts has had AI involved in its making in some way, which is so funny because again, it's like, it's all these hucksters trying to convince you that like, oh well, Gen AI running the plagiarism machine and stealing a bunch of shit from artists that it was trained on is the exact same thing as like you using an AI tool to like speed up coding or to do something and that, which like, I'm not sold on the applications of any of those things, but it's like, I hear what he's saying, but it's like, there is a specific type of AI that steam is targeting and it's like shitty generative AI and there's so much of that shit. Like, I know Nate, you talked about like steam next fest and like how you couldn't go more than like a couple of pages before hitting just like a shit load couple of Gen AI stuff, like. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So I think it's kind of like, it's kind of get to a point where if they're not, I guess, like diligent about that labeling, it's just going to be in everything and hard to avoid or hard to parse out, which is like kind of my fear with this stuff. Like he's like, I don't care if you use AI for sort of like helping you like code certain things, but when you open a game and it just has that look, the other thing is just like very generic. Like that definitely turns me off. - Well, I know there's like. - I think steam should be like, if anything really strict about this. - Yeah, I mean, have you, have you put on the switch, eShop anytime recently? It's like, if you go into the lawyer section, the switch eShop, it is like, it's just AI Slop. It is crazy how much of it there is. - It's like AI Slop, it's like Hentai golfing. It's like. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - Yeah. - I talked about it with NextFest. It's like the build my wife, build my perfect wife simulator. - Yes. - Like that. - I feel like these two conversations are actually very linked. This and the JRPG combo we were just having. In terms of like, I think it's really easy. Like so, so easy to say, well, every game is gonna have AI in it. Or well, there's been no good JRPGs in the last 20 years. And I think what it really comes down to is like, are you looking for the things that you want? - Yeah. - And are you playing them? - Yeah. - Because I truly think that if you are a self-described fan of JRPGs who believes that no good ones are coming out, then you're not looking hard, you're not. - And I think that if you like us are uncomfortable with the idea of certain AI uses in games and you think it's inescapable in the future, then like you're not looking hard enough. There's always going to be indie developers making cool or shitty whatever small little projects that you can spend $5 on or get for free. - Yeah. - Or spend $20 on. That there is always going to be cool shit. And there are always as small as it gets or as small as it is forced to get or as hard as it gets for these teams, there are always going to be people in teams who are pushing back on Gen/AI use and refusing to put it in their games. We are never going to get to a point where every single game is using Gen/AI. - Yeah, and also you always just play old games. Like it's not always like accessible, you might have to emulate it or whatever. But if you truly do not think that between 1997 and 2017, there were any good JRPGs, you could just like Google stuff that happened during that stuff that came out during that time. And then be like, oh, is this on the steam store? Oh, is this like on any other platform I can play on? Like. - You could probably go on YouTube and type in 100 best RPGs of all time and find to like 70 videos where people are like, here's clips from the game and me explaining it, like that stuff exists and it's so, it's so accessible. - And if you want to think about JRPGs that came out between 97 and 2017, we have two episodes on "Found Kids in 10" and "For 7-3" that criteria. - I think both of the thing that both of these stories come back to is that like, and I'm not necessarily saying that this is what Katsura Hashino was doing, but like I think you should be very skeptical of anybody who tells you that like, the future of X thing is coming and I can tell you exactly what it is. Like I think you should be very skeptical of what that person is trying to sell you, what their business ties are because it's like, yeah, of course Tim Sweeney thinks that AI is the future of this shit because like, Epic has been trying to find ways to force AI into some of their biggest games and their biggest things. Like, of course that's how Tim Sweeney feels. Like, I'm not, it's like you mentioned the Sam Bankman Fried thing. It's like, of course that dude is going to tell you that the next big AI wave is just over the horizon because his money depends on it. So yeah, I don't know. I, and I also think tied into some of the other stories we want to bring up here too. Like, I would not be so quick to valorize steam or valve because of this, because just because they have taken a line in the sand in regards to labeling AI games, which frankly should be the bare minimum. Like, steam valve is not the good guy. Like I know they've been getting a lot of positive press in recent weeks, months in regards to like the new steam machine, which I know you guys talked about last week and some other stuff, but like, I was reading this story and it's, it'll be linked in our show notes too. This is from Aftermath and it's called Steam is for Products, not Art that talks about this game called Horses that was made by an Italian studio called Santa Regione. This game was, this game definitely has some like provocative and I guess to put it extremely bare, like NSFW content, like it includes naked people, but it's not, it naked people included for like titillation. It's because it's like trying to be scary and thought provoking and weird. And back when this game was like first in development a couple of years ago, Aftermath is reporting that like, Valve had gone back and forth with the developers at the time about like some scenes that they specifically thought were going to be a little too risky for the steam platform. But this stuff has gotten like even trickier in the last six, the last year, the last six months after the whole payment processor, debacle that happened earlier this year when payment processors were putting pressure on storefronts like steam and like itch to not platform certain content that the payment processors had deemed as not good. And so as a result, this game has been pulled from steam and the company that made it is saying now that like, if we can't sell our game that we worked on, with the expectation we were going to be able to put it on this platform, like we're gonna go under, we're not going to be able to do anything. - Yeah, and just like give context, so the visuals and horses, like when they say that like something or somebody is a horse, a horse in that game is a naked human body with like a horse head. - Yeah, it's freaky. I was watching some videos like YouTube, it's freaky. - Yeah, it is freaky. And so like one of the scenes that was calling the question was like you see a girl riding a horse, like she's sitting almost like piggyback or whatever on like a galloping naked person with a horse head. It's not sexual, it's supposed to be like, again, like kind of a horror-ish. And so like that was one of the things that they were pointing out of like getting running into like trouble with steam and steam being like we don't want to have this on a platform. The thing that like I keep thinking about with the horses' stories, I've been thinking about this game for a couple days is like, steam has become this marketplace where like if you can't or don't have your game on it as an independent developer, like you are fucked. Like I can't even think of an alternate marketplace for the studio that would help fill the gap the same way that being on steam would. - And like there are. - Yeah. - There are other ones, there's Gog and there's itch, but like they are, yeah, an epic. - An epic. - Yes. - And so it's like there are alternatives. But it's like the alternatives scale wise are like nowhere near the user base that steam has, especially since we're moving towards steam being more present in like the box on your TV stand game too where their storefront is going to be like the way to interact with games. I think like Tor, you mentioned that scene with like the girl riding the horse and things too, but like aftermath even reports that like they changed that scene to be an adult woman because that was what vow flagged initially. But like this stuff has gotten even trickier since 2023 and so as a result like even that was not okay. So I don't know, yeah, it's really weird and I do I hear you it's like you want there to be and especially since like I know we are people who truly believe that like video games are and can be artistic and have artistic merit. Like you want to, you want the platforms that they're sold on to agree with you on that front but like at the end of the day valve wants to make money and not lose their master card license. And so like that's who they're looking out for at the end of the day and I guess I guess I get it but like it sucks and I don't think it's great in the long run for the proliferation of like this art form. - Yeah, it is really weird to see steam be like in this position where they could just like take it away. Like to take away your access to like sell things. - To your point, Tori, about like a steam just being such a bigger player than any of the other ones in this space, I think it's been really interesting the way that Gog has kind of reacted to horses not going out steam where they are like not only platforming it but they like launched pre-orders and made a big deal of it and are like posting on their socials and it's interesting 'cause this story started out as like horses developers being like our studio is going to die because our game isn't gonna be on steam and I wonder how much this press will positively affect their sales and if it will be enough just because of the drama to still get similar numbers that they would have gotten on steam or still if it's like having the press, Gog pushing it, Epic pushing it, being on wherever the fuck it's gonna be still is just not hitting the numbers that they would be doing on steam because it's a monopoly. - Yeah, it is effective, a monopoly, effectively a monopoly. Horses still hasn't come out yet, it comes out on December 2nd and we're recording this on November 29th. So they have pre-orders up on Gog right now, but I, on Gog. (laughing) It's interesting. - On Gog. - On Gog. But yeah, I'm curious to see like how those turns out for them. - Yeah, same, same. I think it's like a very big test of like what the current landscape for these things are, especially after the payment processor thing earlier this year. I think it'll be a really interesting test. Do we have any other game news we want to talk about or do we want to start talking about what we've been playing? I'm getting a thumbs up from Nathaniel. You guys want to talk about what you've been playing? Let's go. Nathaniel, do you want to go first? I know you've been deep into playing a game that I would really like to hear you talk about. - Yes, I'm playing a game called X. It's written ball, X pit, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to pronounce the ball and pit. - Really? You're supposed to pronounce it? - No. - That sounds like bullshit. (laughing) X the everything game. - Yeah, really this is all we've been playing. Like I've been playing some red dead too, but I don't have anything new to share about this. Ball pit is this game that came out I'm pretty sure last month. - Yeah, that sounds right. - October 15th. - That's how long I've been hearing other people talk about this game the day after my birthday. Ball pit is a roguelike video game that was developed by Kenny Sun and published by Devolver Digital. I remembered this game came on my radar earlier this year because people were really hyped for it. I think it was announced at Summer Game Fest 2023, but no one get mad at me if I'm wrong there. Essentially, it's like a game where you are, imagine like the conveyor belt at the grocery store and you're at the front of it and enemies are coming down the conveyor belt, okay? So what you are doing down there at the bottom is you have like balls and you are like throwing your balls up and they're like bouncing all around the conveyor belt and coming back to you and you shoot them out and just waves of enemies are being slowly dragged towards you and you can kind of move all around and shoot your balls out and blah, blah, blah. And so it's like, it takes a lot of inspiration from vampire survivors, I think, while also being extremely different in ways that I like and don't like. But I think it's similar to vampire survivors in the way that like there are a bunch of different characters and every character has their own passive. And then as you are going through the game, you get a certain amount of special balls, which is four and you get it four passives as well. And so you're kind of building your shit as you're going, you're picking up like, I want the lightning ball, which means that when I throw it, a lightning comes down and zaps people within four blocks on the screen, right? Or like, I want the vampire ball, which when that hits an enemy, I get a certain percentage chance that I am going to take some of their health for myself. Or like the poison ball. You hit them and they get poisoned and their health goes down. There's a freeze ball, you hit them and they slow down on the conveyor belt coming towards you. And so essentially you're like making your own build and that is where it is similar to vampire survivors, but where it is different is that there's like hella combinations with which you can combine your special balls to make them do different shit. And so it's like, you can take the vampire ball and you can take the poison ball and you can combine them into like a vampire poison ball. And so it'll take like little bits from both of the special powers and give you both. And so that's how you are. Okay, I see the vampire survivors have. Yeah, and that's how you are defeating the thing of like, I can only have four special balls at once. How do I keep building? Is you keep building by like, just keep smushing them together into one and then grabbing another one and smushing them in. And so there's like the, so essentially the game starts and like you're in like a castle basically and like a big ass meteor comes and smashes the castle and goes into the ground and that's what makes the pit. And so you go down in the pit to fight with the monsters on the conveyor belt. But when you are up from the pit, it's like a base builder essentially where you are like using your money that you get in the pit to like build back the community that was destroyed by the meteor but then building the upstairs is what is giving you unlocks for the downstairs. If that makes sense, right? Okay. And so the way that I feel about this game is I love the downstairs and I'm so obsessed with it and I could not give less of a shit about the base building stuff that's upstairs, but you have to do it is the thing. Like in order to progress in the game, you have to do the base building, which I went through for a while and was like, why the fuck is this base building shit even in here? And now I'm like, oh, of course it's through which I unlock everything else that's in the rest of the game. And so I've been having fun. The way that we've kind of been doing it that's been most fun for me is that Angie and I sit next to each other on the couch and then like one of us does her run and then she does all the upstairs stuff that she wants to do. And so like I'll play and I enter the controller and she'll do upstairs and then play around or like she'll play around and then do upstairs and then give me the controller and I'll do the next run. And so I just like to be on the conveyor belt, throwing the balls and smashing the bad guys. I don't really care about like the building and harvesting stuff upstairs, but I think I could get to a point where I am so interested in the downstairs stuff that I'm like, fuck it, I have to go all in upstairs. Like it's going to happen to me this week probably. This game is just great and I also put down in the dock that I've been playing a little Vampire Survivors. I had been playing that before I got this one actually because they put in the, there's like a new Bolotro DLC in Vampire Survivors, which I still haven't played yet, but I'm gonna get to it. But this has been like really fun to jump to after having like a little dip my toe in Vampire Survivors earlier this week. - The people who I'm hearing recommend this game are people who I know play other roguelikes too. And so like gameplay wise, is this like doing anything that you've never seen before in a roguelike or is it just doing stuff you've seen in other games but like really well? - I am not like the biggest most played roguelike guy. I also like, like I said, I don't like base builders. Like I never got into like the Clash of Clans type shitter. I don't know if there's like a fighting type thing that you have to do in the upstairs eventually. I feel like I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the stuff that's in here is not original and I feel like I am recognizing a lot of it but it is just like tight as fuck. It's everything it's doing, it's doing extremely well. - I think that's kind of how I feel about roguelikes in general, I think I'm not my favorite genre but what I noticed is that like a lot of them are iterative on other games. And so it's like, this mechanic is not original by any stretch but like does it feel good? Are you having fun? Like when I was on the theater a few months ago, one of the games we played, besides Clearps Gear, was Star Vaders, which is a grid-based game and they're coming down and you are proving things and like trying to bump them back a few spaces and like a grid roguelike is not original at all but I think Star Vaders is a lot of fun. And like I would recommend that game to you. - Yeah, I was thinking that some of the base-buildy stuff is kind of like vaguely reminding me of what I remember roguelike a C was like, a game that like I have not played in quite some time but I remember really liking when I did play it that it was like, and Hades is the same too of like money and currency or whatever points that you get when you're in the roguelike part of the game or the combat or whatever is stuff that you bring back to another area where you can upgrade stuff that makes future runs easier, unlocks other stuff which like, yeah, that's kind of, I guess that is like, that's like a good part of the genre but some of them don't do as much of that. So I'm interested, I'm interested. - The thing that I do feel like is way different than anything I've ever played, I guess, is the way that it is combining the special abilities. - Yeah, that sounds cool. That sounds really cool. Where it's like, for my people who have not played this game but have played Vampire Survivors, like just imagine if you could take two weapons and smash them into one and have it be one thing. Like I love in Vampire Survivors like the magic wand where it's automatically aiming at the closest enemy and another one I love is like the Bibles that spin a circle around you and it's like, imagine if you could combine those two things and out of your wand, you're like shooting a circle of Bibles that is then going at, like that's the type of shit that this game is doing where it's like, okay, you have the ghost and you have the lightning, let's combine them and see what they fucking do and then let's take a combined one and combine it with something else and have like, you get to a point if you are focused enough on that in the game to like combine the same thing with like four other things and just become so powerful. Yeah, I'm having a good time with this one. And then other game stuff, I have been playing a little bit of demon school but not enough to really talk about it yet and then I downloaded a couple of demos for stuff that I have been seeing people on the internet talk about and so I haven't tried either but I'm gonna, these are three things that I'm gonna shout out in hopes of talking about them next week. And so the first one, have you guys seen people talking about news tower? Yes, a friend of mine texted me out of the blue on Thanksgiving and was like, we hadn't talked in a while and he was like, happy turkey day. You should go on steam and download the demo for news tower and I was like, what? Thank you for reminding me because I forgot about that until just now. Yeah, I had seen people talking about news tower because like the review embargo ended a few days back is what I'm assuming which is why I saw a bunch of stuff. I think I saw on Blue Sky this morning that Ash Parrish just shared her review on the verge that she did for the game. But it is, I'm reading from the steam description that says, develop your newspaper and become New York's new media mogul in this tycoon build and manage your newspaper from printer to toilet. Create your editorial line and lead journalists through unique 1930s stories and dig out the latest stuff. Oh, it just does sound like that. And so I watched like a YouTube video. Yeah, it was sort of I'd know a game. Seriously, like this journalism seems crazy. Yeah, I had the layout lever, you're like, right. No, but I was watching someone on YouTube play it and that you have to like decide how, how like aggressive you're gonna be in your coverage and like the negatives in the city of like the fallout of what happens when you are reporting on the mob, right? What happens if you are reporting on political corruption and like this dude was playing on YouTube and like the fuck he put out a story and the mob came into his newspaper when it was closed and smashed up the building and like destroyed all of his shit and he had to like pay money. But this everything I've read and seen about this game, it seems like completely addictive. And it's just like the building. It's like that 2D thing where you can like see the side of a building, but it's as if the outside wall is not there and you can kind of like do the different floors and go up and down and shit. News tower looks good. And so I installed the demo. The other one I know way less about, which is this like pixel art five on five full court basketball game that is called Hoopland. That is I'm pretty sure, yes, it's in early access. It launched last month on steam it says, experience the ultimate Hoop sim in Hoopland, a retro inspired basketball manager with modernized gameplay and fully customizable leaks. And so I've seen stuff online where people are saying like in the discord that they have for this game, people have just like made completely accurate modern rosters with like logos and shit that you can just like mod the game and have it be like the Lakers versus the Celtics and shit. And I was I was reading some of the reviews for Hoopland on steam and people were saying, I think it's like 15 bucks early access and people were saying like, I don't know if this is worth 15 bucks, but the gameplay is like ridiculously nailed where it's just like very simple, very good basketball gameplay apparently. So I'm excited to to dive into more demon school as well as some news tower and Hoopland for next week's podcast. I love the idea of a game not being worth $15. I'm like, I don't know, I yeah. Like I know that I'm not gonna just drop $15 on everything, but I'm like, I've bought some pretty shitty meals that were $15 like I would yeah. I'm willing to drop 15 bucks to see if a game is any good. Like I think that's the whole conversation about what games are worth is just so silly because it's like, I don't know when I'm talking about like, I don't know any fucking game. Red Dead Redemption 2. Vampire Survivors being five bucks and then you play it for like 90 hours or like, how do you quantify what something is really worth which you being in Tendo is how you do it. Yeah, you just being in Tendo and you have the big machine that says this one should be 70 bucks and this one should be 60 bucks. Yeah, the reality is good. This one should be 68. Yes. That's what I got. Other than the games just watching a ton of movies lately. This man has been on the movie grind. Yeah, sure. Yeah, including one that I'm wondering, Tori, if you'll go next 'cause I'm seeing a movie at the bottom of your list, that's one of my faves that I actually just ordered a physical of. So, if you'll go, if you can get my time, Tori. Yeah, so I've also been watching movies and on Thanksgiving morning, Jesse and I watched the Holdovers, which is like. Had you seen this? No. No, I had never seen it. Jesse had seen it 'cause he had watched it on a flight. And he was, I remember like, I was watching some like movie that was not even that good and he watched that one and he's like, you should have watched this one. You should have watched this one. And so, it's been like a year or two years since we went on that flight and we were just like, I wish we watched Thanksgiving. Like, I'm not really feeling like a Christmas movie but something kind of holiday related and he was like, oh, the Holdovers. Like, it takes place over multiple holidays, right? And it just like, it just fits, it just fits. And, you know, the Holdovers is this movie where it takes place in like a private school in New England, like a private All Boys Catholic school and in the early 70s. And what happens is the kids are supposed to go away for Christmas break. But there are a handful of boys that can't go home because like, one of them like is from Korea and the flight is too long. And the other one like, there's one kid that his mom has a new boyfriend. His mom wants to run off a vacation with her new husband and doesn't want to spend time with him, which is like really sad. And so you just get like everyone on campus is gone except for these like five boys. And so they, the headmaster puts in charge a, they're like history teacher or like ancient society, right? Yes, it's Paul Giovanni. Yeah. Just being like, can you babysit these boys for like those weeks between like now and New Year's? The Paul Giovanni character is like, he graduated from this school when he was a boy and then has just worked there forever even though you can kind of just tell that he's this dude who like thinks that he was destined for greater things. And like, is a brilliant guy? But it's like everyone's least favorite teacher. The teacher's least favorite teacher. The fucking, the headmaster's least favorite teacher. So they like essentially, it's not his turn to be with the holdovers for the holidays, but the other teachers and the headmaster like, essentially just trick him into doing it. Yeah, they don't like this guy. Guess who we're gonna put on charge of holdover duty this Christmas, this guy. Like, he doesn't have any friends, he is single. He's just kind of a weird dude, honestly. His only friend is the cafeteria manager. Really, basically friends. And so yeah, he's just kind of a funny character. He will like, there's a scene where he look at everyone like failed their final exam for like Greek history. And he's like, I will let you make up this exam after the break is over, but awesome, gonna include new material. So like, y'all better be reading the Odyssey, bring your books over Christmas break. Everyone's like, this fucking guy, this bastard. So like, he's just like the worst, honestly. So he gets the charge of watching over these boys and just like a lot of shenanigans ensue. And like, you learn about these boys and their family backgrounds. And eventually, like, some of these boys actually do get to go home around, like just around or just after Christmas, but there's still one boy left who doesn't have a home to come back to. So it's literally this teacher and one boy left for like the last week or so of the break. And it's really about this boy in particular at his family background and Paul Giamotti, essentially acting like a surrogate father to him. And like, it's really, really heart-fall. It's a really good movie. Like, the setting of it did remind me a little bit of Dead Poets Society, except this movie is a lot more like, uplifting than Dead Poets Society. - Good to know, 'cause like, I've wanted to watch this one for a hot minute. It's been on my list for a bit. But every time I've looked at it, I've gotten Dead Poets Society vibes from it and gotten a little worried about it. - No, it isn't end badly. But like, it definitely is. Like, it does tug on your heartstrings. Like, there is, you know, talks about like parental loss and mental illness and like, dysfunctional families and things like that. But I think, it's just a really good movie. It's very heart-felt. I think that there's a character in this movie, who's my favorite, who is the cafeteria manager. And like, her story and what she went through with her son is like, just really, really heartbreaking. And, yeah, it got me. So, but this is a really good movie. It has like, really good folk music in it too. - Okay, okay. - Everything, so the thing about this movie that's so cool is like, they really went as hard as they could to make it seem not only like the movie takes place in the '70s, but that it was made in the '70s. - Oh, that's cool. - And so like, the film and even like, the paramount graphics that come up before the movie starts. - Oh, yeah, it opens up. - It's all stuff from the '80s. This movie, like, I first saw it in, I think, December of 2023, 'cause it came out that year. And immediately, for me, I was like, this is in every year around the holiday's movie. I remember last year, I showed it to Angie and she was like, this is one of my favorite movies I've ever seen, like, instantly. And I just bought a physical of this that's coming in the mail this week that I did not tell Angie I got to it, surprise her with it, 'cause I think she's gonna be really excited. But, this movie, so it's Paul Giamati starring and then Dominic Cessa is co-starring with him. Which, he was like a student at the school that they were filming at. And he, like, threw, yes, he, like, wasn't an actor. This is his first credit, is starring in the holdovers across Paul Giamati. - And he's, like, a new actor. - Yeah, he was a student at this school and auditioned and, like, landed this role. And now he's, like, going to be the lead in the Anthony Bourdain Biopic, that's for coming. Like, he has, he's had, like, a meaty, - He's really good. - He's phenomenal. All the performances in this movie are insane, actually. I truly feel like I can't speak high enough about the holdovers, because it's such a good watch. - Damn, I gotta watch this damn movie. Okay, that sounds, this is going, this is moving to the top of the list. - It was, it's a great movie. I feel like it really captures that, like, in-between. There's, like, those, like, weird days between Christmas and years. So well, that's, like, an alternate dimension. And, like, this movie just really captures that. - So, yeah. - It's just like- - In New England, it's snowy, it's cold as fuck outside. It just feels cold, feels warm. - Well, it also feels like it's the kind of holiday movie that actually captures, like, for me, the feelings of somebody who has, like, kind of complicated feelings about the holidays that are more than just, like, yeah, it's Christmas. I love Christmas. Like, I've had, I have some complicated feelings and some complicated emotions about the holidays. So this sounds, this sounds up my alley. - Like, I've never even really celebrated Christmas. And thanksgiving isn't one of our more evil holidays. And I like it, so. - Damn, there you go. - Good to know. Good to know. Tori, what else you got? - Yeah. There's, yeah, so the other piece of, like, I guess, retro takes place in media that I watched recently that it's not as good as the whole of this. - So you can have shit- - Stranger things, so it's made to look like it's old. - I like, have been seeing buzz about this on social media. Mostly people saying it's bad to be fair. When, like, I saw that, I don't know, they put all these fuckers in Fortnite too. And so I was like, wow, new Stranger things. It's gotta be, like, season three or four at this point, right? And I looked at it was, like, five. And I was like, how fucking cool. How much of the show is there? That's so crazy. - It should be the opposite. No, I think you should have looked at this and been like, they gotta be on, like, season 10 right now. - Maybe, maybe. - Maybe, it's about 30 years. - So, yeah, this show has been going on for so long that season five opens with a clip, like, a thing that happened during the events of season one. Like, season five takes place, I think, like, in 1987. But it opens and it says, like, November, 1983, which is season one. And it's basically, like, will in the upside down being attacked by Vecna, who was the guy and charged the upside down. But because so much time has passed and Noah's snap is an adult, they had to cast an entire separate kid with a bull cut to pretend to be 11-year-old will. And yet, to just pretend that that was will. And it's like, that does not look like will. But, like, he's got a bull cut and he's crying and stuff. And it's like, all right, well, this is just pretend this is a flashback of will. - They didn't just CGI, AI, him, or whatever. - It looked like an entirely different child. - Oh my God. Maybe it was just bad CGI, you never know. - Maybe it was. - This is what season 10 of the Netflix One Piece show is gonna be like, too, by the way. - Dude, they better, I think they should cap that after like three seasons. - Or they gotta speed the fuck up. - Yeah, I was like, we need to skip like seven arcs. But like, yeah, so it opens with that, which is already kind of sus, to be honest. And the thing about this is like, the whole premise, I know you all have not watched Stranger Things, but the whole thing is like. - I think we've both, we've both seen at least a little stranger thing. So I'll push back on that. I watched the first season, shortly after it came out with my roommates in college. And then we watched the second one too. But like, I would not have finished the second season if I had not been watching it with people who were more invested than I was. Like, I was rapidly losing interest by the back half of the second season. And then future seasons were coming out. And I was just like, I feel like I got everything out of this that I was gonna get out of it. - Okay, okay. So basically what you need to know is that like, the upside down, it's like a whole, it's a whole like, - There's a whole thing going down there, yeah. - It's like, in tears of the kingdom, where you like, you go underneath Hyrule, and there's a whole nother Hyrule. - Okay, yeah. - It's like that and it's like full of scary ass shit. And anyway, during season four, the discovery that the upside down is actually massive. And this guy named Vekna is kind of in charge of it. And Vekna is kind of like 11. And she's like a test subject. - Okay. - Vekna, when he was a normal dude, it was number one. So like, he has those, those powers. All right. And so at the end of season four, like Hawkins has like, the earth has like ripped up. There's like portals everywhere in Hawkins to the upside down. Like shit is busted. People have died like the girl with red hair, Max, like she's been possessed by Vekna. She's been like in a coma for a whole season now. Her brother died like just like so much crazy shit has happened. And so season five is like, Hawkins has been effectively taken over by like the military. Like they have quarantined Hawkins. Like if you live in Hawkins, you cannot leave or come in unless you have like government clearance. The military has an upside down base. Like they have portals. They drive army trucks into and have a base. - Not the fuck. - And so like, it's just getting crazy at this point. And so the gang is like we need to drive a car through the portal into the upside down and find wherever Max is in this alternate dimension so we can wake her up from her coma in the real world. - Okay. - And so they're like planning this heist and they're doing all that. And of course like shit goes sideways. More people go missing. Like Mike's parents both get like they're, they're shit rocked by the Demogorgon who breaks into the house, like it's just like a bad time. Which overall it's like not a bad story. My issue with it is like, I think they forgot how to write a script. Everyone's lines sound really bad. Like everyone, there's one character whose name is Robin. I don't know if you've seen her. She has like a Bob. She's Ethan Hawkins and with their men's daughter. Like if you've seen pictures of her online. She's like a quirky radio DJ. She's also like the only canonically gay character so far. - Okay. - Like Will's definitely supposed to be gay, but like they have to be just out in mad characters for the last season. - Sorry. (laughs) So. - But like Robin is a beloved character and I really like Robin. But in this season, Robin is like Quirk Chunga's bro. - Oh no. - And she's always like- - There was no Quirk Chunga's. - No, she's like, she's got, I mean this, his was in '87. She's like the first Quirk Chunga's historical incidents. And she's like, wait a second. Like don't we have the juke deflibrator? And she's like using fake jargon terms to talk about like audio and video equipment. And it like, it kills me bro. Like she's not funny anymore. - That. - And it's so good. - The thing that I keep seeing about this, stranger things, season. And maybe it's just because of the content that I see on the internet and TV being a lot of sports stuff. It's like all the gatorade, stranger things, commercials. And I feel like I'm just getting glass bottle gatorade shoved in my face on TV and online all the time. - There's no product placement and there's like a whole issue. - I think it was in season two. Or she's in three where they're like, they had like the new coat, which is like this coke that came out in the '80s. That was like a flop. They have this scene where 11 is like, she's training to run through the upside down. And so she's like built an obstacle course for herself. And it's like running and like trying to like, break her record and stuff. - Like Princess Peach in the Mario movie. - Like Princess Peach in the Mario movie, yeah. - Yeah, literally. And so she's like running through this obstacle course in her training. And yet the end, she's like chugging gatorade. And it's that glass bottle gatorade. So there's just scenes like that where it's like, this is clearly a product placement. - God. - The thing that bothers me the most about this season is not even the story or like the fact that yeah, the show probably should have ended like five years ago, or whatever. The thing that bothers me is that it feels like it was shot for TikTok clips, which is something I'm beginning to feel about streaming shows more and more. Like there are scenes where like the pan is wide and a character will be in the middle and will be staring at the camera so that if you cropped it for verticals, they would perfectly land in the middle. And so like there's a scene where Mike, his, the Demogorgon like breaks into his house, like kidnapped his sister, is like beating the shit out of his parents. And so his mom has like broken a wine bottle and is like trying to like beat the Demogorgon. And it like basically almost kills her. And that whole scene, she's like in the middle of the camera perfectly. And like you see her face like just, it's so centered and so weird. Also, she's like beating the shit out of the Demogorgon. And the Demogorgon just stands there and just tanks getting wine bottle glass hit for like 20 seconds. And then it hits her back, which is like not how fighting works. But yeah, I felt like that whole scene, each scene I feel like like the camera's panning to like one character to another who's talking. I feel like the camera's changed like every five seconds and I swear to God is because of TikTok or because of our like new attention spans. And it's like, I can't. I don't know, like stop thinking about it. What are you going to keep watching this, do you think because you like wanna see the resolution? Or is this like, 'cause I know the release schedule for this is kind of fucked where it's like, they're giving a couple episodes here and a couple episodes there. Like is this gonna keep you going through it? I don't know if I'm gonna make it, but the scheduling is-- Yeah, but it's, isn't it like, they're giving you like a couple four hour episodes or something, probably, right? Like these shit's gotta be long as fuck. Yeah, these are long episodes. Each of these episodes, like an hour and five minutes, an hour and 10 minutes, and they dropped for them, like the day before Thanksgiving or something, they're gonna drop for more on Christmas day and then like one big finale on New Year's Eve. So like this is a long season. This is like 12 hours probably of footage and I just don't think it should be that long. I would say who asked for that, but a lot of people-- A lot of people have, yeah. A lot of people asked for that. Yeah, I also just can't not look at Noah's snap now and think about some of the stuff that he's been saying in real life, like I just, I can't. It kind of, it just like ruined Will for me Loki. Yeah, I don't know. But the show to me very much felt like it jumped the shark very early on and like has continued to jump the shark in new and insane ways, like every episode for the last almost a decade now. And so it's like, I don't know, like I said, I've not even watched enough of this, even really have a strong opinion about this, but I very much felt like even by season two, I was like the thing that I thought people really liked about this was the fact that it was like a throwback to like the old Steven Spielberg, like Ambulin movies. And it already kind of felt like it was losing that at that point. So the fact that the kids are also now like 30 is like, yeah, I'm not surprised that people are just not vibing with it. Yeah, one of the kids, like the original kids is like my age. And like they, they do have so dirty, like he just looks like a grown-ass man and he's like, stop picking up my friend Dustin. It's Lucas, it's that character. And like, Lucas's hair is so problematic. There's no other way to describe it other than that they're probably like, you know what I heard actually? He's like, you guys know about the, well, Tori does, she's been watching it. You guys know what you know about. He's fucked up as haircut for the season, right? Or he has like a high top, a high top, but no edge up, it's like just a, like upside down U that goes up his head with a flat top. I heard from someone Tori that apparently, because I was talking to one of my friends, I was like, how the fuck do they not have like a black barber or someone who can do black hair on set of Netflix's biggest show, right? And my friend told me that apparently, the first, whatever, a couple few seasons of the show that his dad was cutting his hair for. What? That's crazy. That's crazy. His hair is so racist. His haircut is racist, as fuck. He kind of looks like the stoop kid from Hey Arnold right now. And it's like really rough. And I think it's like usually with the flat top, your hairline is straight across. Like in most depictions of it, I've seen it's like more squared. But his is like almost like he's balding. Like almost like a receding hairline and then a flat top. And it like, it looks so crazy to me. And like, they did him so damn. They could have fixed it in person. They could have fixed it in post. And they just left him with like an upside down U haircut. No edge out. Poor guy, that's so fucked up. The one black character doesn't get it into it. No, literally, he's like the one of, he kind of has the little sister, the one of two black characters in the whole show. God damn it. But yeah, I also feel like 11 isn't like interesting anymore. Like she's just like a normal girl now. Like she's just like, oh, hey, like close that chemistry homework. And I'm just like god damn it. Like, and also at this point, there's other people who have telekineg powers. Like she's not like, I don't know. It's, it definitely has shut up the shark. So yeah, that was strange with things. And then my only last item is that I've been playing the Kirby and the Forgotten Land DLC. Kirby and the Forgotten Land came out in 2022. It was a lot of fun. I really like this game. And the DLC like Sash Switch 2 version came out a few months back. So I decided to pick it up. And I've been having a really good time with this. It is kind of like Kirby wonder if I could describe it. Like they have reimagined some of the levels with like blue crystals and flowers. And if Kirby touches it, it like accesses a whole other like path you could take in that level. And you can unlock more stuff and more collectibles. And it's a lot of fun. I've been really enjoying it. My favorite stages are when you can use mouthful mode on like a spring. And so Kirby can like shrink down and like jump up really high. But yeah, this is a really fun game. And I hope Nintendo continues to make more like weird Kirby's. - I also just love seeing like Nintendo continue to support games that came out several years ago. And granted I know that like in this case, it's coming in the form of like you have to, I don't know, what is it? You have to buy the Switch 2 version of the game which then kind of like yeah, it's like, I don't know. I don't love that, but like I do love that games like this can still get another lease on life when it's like realistically another Kirby game probably isn't coming out for a hot minute. Like after this one and after the racing one, like it's probably gonna be a little bit before a new Kirby game. So that's cool. - I have a question for you Tori. Our one Switch 2 owner on the podcast. I have heard people have the take of the Switch 2 edition of this game is just DLC that's more of the game that we already had. I am so excited to play more of this game that I love and I have the Switch 2 version. I've also heard the take where people are like, this sucks 'cause I'm paying for DLC and it's just more of the same game. - It definitely is. - I wanna know where you fall, right? If you are, no, no, no, no, I don't, I don't wanna know about this game. I wanna know how you feel about Switch 2 editions. Do you want more of the same or do you want new and different expanding on what we have? - I can't want new and different expanding on what we have 'cause like. - Okay, but that's not really what this one is, right? - It's like more like levels or like versions of levels. So it is kind of more, but still kind of the same. I have the Switch 2 upgrade for Breath of the Wild, tears of the Kingdom 'cause that was free, but I haven't really messed with it. - And that's way more 'cause you get to put a app on your phone to show where your character is. - I did, up tears of the Kingdom are Breath of the Wild. I ran around and a few months ago on Switch 2, and I was like, yeah, this does look better. Yeah, I can walk through the Korok Forest and it doesn't like lock up on me. That's cool up. - But then I didn't do anything else but afterward. So like. - Yeah, it probably looks good as hell on like a big ass nice TV, yeah? - Yeah, I don't know. I think this Switch 2 editions should have new content. - Honestly, I feel like that was a lot of why I have felt really, really okay this year with not getting a Switch 2 is because I feel like the games that I would be most excited to play on it are Breath of the Wild and tears of the Kingdom, which I was just like, if I really want to play those games, I can just play them on my Switch OLED, it's okay. - Yeah, that's the thing is I feel like where it's at right now, and again, don't have a Switch 2. I feel like Switch 2 is insanely cool for people who managed just to jump over Switch 1. And now there is like all these games that you've been hearing people talk about for years, except now they've got more shit in them and they look better than they ever did before. But like, I really wonder how many people that are like that and that is definitely not me. So I'm like, until some stuff starts coming out that is like truly earth shattering and like truly doing different stuff, I'm like, I'm with you, I'm kind of okay. - Okay, I'm kind of wondering if Metroid Prime 4 is gonna be like the game that makes people be like, oh, shit, I need a Switch 2. But then you get this guy who's like, we're about to get really, really up in here. So. - Yeah, I think your Quirk Chunga's guy might have called it for some people, so. - The thing is, the Metroid games don't even sell that well compared to other big Nintendo stuff. And so, I feel like that was never gonna be the case. I'm just doing a little quick search. I'm seeing on Wikipedia that the entire Metroid series has sold almost 17 and a half million, damn. And so it's like, that's not a lot for a first-party Nintendo series. This game is gonna come out and if they sell like, four million copies, then it's gonna be like a huge W, which is great, but I don't, maybe there was a world in which this was gonna be a system seller, but I feel like Metroid isn't making that. - I know, so then this is kind of the deal with them launching with like, okay, here's a Mario Kart, that's great, but like Donkey Kong. You know, like, I don't think until you get a smash or, until you get a smash or like, - Made mine Mario, I guess, or a Zelda. They're not gonna get like, the oh shit now really is time to buy a Switch 2. - But is that, is that it? I truly wonder is, are those the only things? Like, let's, let's, let me build out real quick. Like, what if the Switch had dropped with the games we got? So we got Mario Kart and we got Donkey Kong. Like, what if we had also gotten Pikmin 5? Like, would that be enough? Or do you think it has to be? What if we had gotten new Animal Crossing? 'Cause I feel like Animal, I think that could have worked, yeah. - I think that actually would have worked. - That might have done it. - But like, Animal Crossing, yeah. Do you guys think of, so is Animal Crossing closer at this point to the mainline Zelda 3D Mario? - I think so. - Than it is, okay. - I think it is, yeah, it's far closer. - Yeah, that's true. - Pikmin is for freaks, let's be so for real. Like, Pikmin is for freaks. Metroid is for like a select probably older demographic, if I had to guess. But like, Animal Crossing really has like blow up in 2020. So I think if they were to have dropped a new Animal Crossing Switch 2, that would have been crazy. - Yeah, the circumstances around Animal Crossing, New Horizons release, has probably done enough to like catapult that game into Nintendo's like top tier for at least a few more Animal Crossing games. - I wonder that I feel like it's for zero to one more Animal Crossing games. And I feel like the reason that they didn't put a new one out and why they just did DLC is because they have to figure out what a non-COVID Animal Crossing market looks like. Because I think this game is gonna, like, I don't know, not this game, 'cause it's not like we know an Animal Crossing sequel is forthcoming, but it's like, would you be surprised if a new Animal Crossing game sells? And then people are like, what the fuck? It's selling a fraction of what the last one sold. Like, that wouldn't surprise me. - I actually think, yeah. I think I'm not sure if Animal Crossing will ever sell that well ever again because COVID. So I don't know what like the new expectation for them is. I mean, they are making a Switch 2 edition of New Horizons in January, that's gonna let you have like Zelda characters instead. - Yeah. - So there is a little bit of that breadcrumb, but like, it's not a new game. - Yeah. - I think Nintendo is kind of at the point now. And like, I know they know it and I know people were talking about it like this before Switch 2 even dropped, but it's like, the Switch is so much like the Wii and that it garnered a user base that includes people who may not be interested in just buying the next box because they want the next box. And so it's like, how do you get people to go from the Wii to the Wii U or the Switch to the Switch 2? And Nintendo failed that spectacularly with the Wii U. And it seems like they're not failing now with the Switch 2 considering how many people bought them at the start. But like, can they sustain that? And I don't know what the answer is. So, I don't know. They'll probably drop a Mario next year or Zelda next year and it will like completely change the conversation around it. But like, or a New Zelda will come out next year and then people will be like, okay, it came out. What's next? Because I, what is the game that is not going to have that reaction? Because I feel like that's been the reaction for every big game this year. - It's cool. - I fear it might have to be Smash Brothers. I feel that may have to be the Smash button in case of emergency for Nintendo. - Yeah. I got it in the glass of the game. I've already started to see like, alleged rumors about the next Smash thing that Nintendo is working. Which are almost assuring people. - Have you seen, I would've been seeing-- - I saw one that was like, Nintendo is working on the next Smash and it's gonna have a paired back roster that is gonna be like nowhere near as many characters and far fewer third party characters. But then I've also seen Nintendo is working on getting all of the licenses to make that again with all of the characters, including the DLC from Ultimate. So like, I don't know. I will say like, I love a deranged Smash Brothers hype cycle. So like, I'm almost looking forward to that more than I am to a new Smash Brothers game because the hype cycle is always so fucking stupid. And everyone else, buddy. - Apparently being everybody else, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm glad to hear your Switch 2 insight though. - No, what do you have? - What do I have? I have like two main things, nothing too too crazy. Even though I was not here last week, I've been so busy with like, traveling and hosting family and whatnot that like, I've just been busy as fuck. The first thing I will shout out is a Pokemon ROM hack that if you listen to other video game podcasts, there's a non-zero chance you've already heard of this. I've been playing Pokemon Lazarus on my little emulation, Doohickey. This one was made by the same ROM hacker who made Emerald Sea Glass, which came out like, late last year or early this year and was like, really, really, really popular in like the Pokemon ROM hacking circles. If you missed out on that one, you forget which one that is. That is the one that is like, the conceit of it is like, what if Pokemon Emerald came out in 2000 and had like the Golden Silver Art Style. But it had like a bunch of quality of like features and also Pokemon from like future generations in it too. And like Emerald Sea Glass is really, really cool. I think like if you are someone who has not played Emerald in a decade or two and you've been thinking about revisiting it, like Emerald Sea Glass is like a really cool and fresh way to revisit it. And the art is just so, so cool. Like seeing some of these Pokemon kind of like reimagined in the 2000, like 2001 art style of the Game Boy Color style is so cool. But like shortly after that game blew up, the person who made it, whose name I'm gonna have to look up because I want to actually like properly credit them for the work they did, we can edit me scrolling out here. This is, okay, so the ROM hacker who made it, their name is Nemo622. They announced that they had been working on like an entirely separate thing that was not just like what if this Pokemon game, but it looked old? And like there's a couple different, I know I've talked to this on the show before, but like there's a handful of different genres, I would say of Pokemon ROM hacks. And two of the most popular are what if an older Pokemon game, but with something new? And usually that is like new Pokemon or insane difficulty or like Nuzlocke features built in, like there's that. And then there's, I'm gonna make my own region that is going to play like what a Pokemon game would play like if I made it. And sometimes that means I made my own fake Pokemon. Sometimes that means I have added in like really crashed shitty humor. It's kind of like it runs the gamut. This one I was talking to into the Aether host, Brendan Bigley about this the other day. Like I really think Lazarus captures the feeling of like what if this Pokemon game came out in 2001 and it was a legit Nintendo game? So so well, like the region is based on Greece. And it does a lot of ROM hacks do the thing where they're like, well there's a thousand Pokemon and we've made all 1000 Pokemon catchable in this game, which tends to make like the balance just like fucking horrible. This one has like, you're not gonna feel that Pokédex. That's just like too much. You're not gonna fill up that Pokédex. No, this one and I know they do some of that for like the everyone's blurbos here and like I don't want to not include your blurbos but like this one has a paired back Pokédex which is like I think it's still like 400 or something but it's not all of them. And so because of that it feels balanced. It's got all kinds of quality of life features in it. It's got beautiful graphics. It's got a neat system that has, you have like a quest book. So it's like, you know, you talk to a character who's like, oh I really want you to bring me an Eevee and you don't just have to remember what person asked you to bring them an Eevee three towns ago. Like it gives you a little quest thing and you can go back and you can see that. And so far the gym leaders are not restricted to like one single type. It's more based on like a vibe, which has created a really cool, they're called themselves muses. And so it's like the first or second gym leader was like grass and bug. So it's like capturing a vibe rather than like, I'm the grass gym leader. I have six grass Pokémon and I'm gonna fuck you up unless you have a fire type and then you're fine. But like it's neat, I'm having a lot of fun with it. Like it has enough going on with it and enough that feels fresh that I'm kind of like really enjoying it and it's propelling me through. So that's my like main game. - Yeah, so I was gonna ask as somebody who likes Pokémon but has never played a ROM hack. Like where would you recommend I start if I were to start? - I think it kind of depends because it's like, there's a couple different ways to go about it and it's like if you like the mainline Pokémon games but you're like, oh, these are baby games and they're not hard enough for me. There are a couple of ROM hacks by a guy whose name is Drayano, Drayano that are considered like some of the best. It's, I know he did a fire red and leaf green hack but the main ones I'm thinking of are storm silver and something gold which are like hacks for heart cold and soul silver and then volt white and blaze black which are black and white ROM hacks. And those are like, what if these games were like a little more difficult, had a few more Pokémon in them and were a little more balanced and had some more stuff like that. If you're interested in like, what if someone else other than Game Freak made a new Pokémon game with like a new region and maybe even new Pokémon, I don't know, that's tough. I've played fewer of those, I would say. I know like one of the classics is Pokémon Glazed which is like, it has this like vague donut theme surrounding it but I know it's like a totally new, which I'm called a new region entirely. Honestly, it's shaping up for Lazarus to be like one of the better ones in that space too. Like the ROM hacking scene is kind of fascinating in that like, it's been around for as long as it has and so there's like some hacks that used to be considered like the gold standard and people just don't really talk about anymore because there are other ones that have come about that do that stuff better. So like, that's a few options but also like, I would say if you're like interested in one element of these, these games can't get too popular so a lot of times they will not get covered in like, games outlets because if you've gotten that popular and they're writing about you in Game Outlets, you are just one step away from Game Freak like destroying you and wiping your project off the face of the earth but like, there are a lot of YouTube channels that will do like, here are the best Pokémon ROM hacks that came out this month. Like, it is, it's truly crazy how many of these are constantly getting made. - No, I was just trying to look up a few that I had heard. I know our friend Colley has played like a decent amount of these, unbound is one that people are always talking about. - I've been hearing about that one a lot. - Yeah, I think that one is like DS visuals, GBA style game. - Yeah, I have not played any of unbound but yeah. - Yeah, there's a handful of those. Right before I started playing this one, I was playing another one that was called like, I don't even remember what it was called. It was like something legacy or something legends that was like, try, it was, it purported to be like the definitive, we made Golden Silver but in like the third gen Pokémon game and Gen. And it was fun. It sure felt like Golden Silver but it looked like Emerald. So like, there's, yeah, there's so many of these. It's truly like mind-boggling how many of these there are but like the Pokémon ROM hacks Reddit is also very, very active too with people like talking about these and recommending new ones even though like right now I think everyone is kind of just like glazing Lazarus but like plus Lazarus is made by a person who's not like a total shit head too, which I really like. When you go into the professor's lab at the beginning, there's like a pride flag and then like a trans flag up against the wall and like people were pretty immediately like man they're pushing this shit down my throat and the, the dev was like I never said I wasn't going to. Like, so yeah. - This is my Pokémon ROM hack, right? What if Pokémon but woke? - Well, considering that this is my Pokémon ROM hack, what if Pokémon but racist does exist? Like they need it that we needed a what if Pokémon but woke? - The only other thing I really have to shout out for this week is I've read, so I talked on the podcast recently about how I went and reread the first book in the Song of Ice and Fire series of Game of Thrones. I had lots of fun reading it. I kind of wanted to read more George R. Martin more Game of Thrones but I didn't really want to embark on reading the next book in the series. That's like another thousand pages. So I read the collection I have of the three short stories that are, the collections called The Night of the Seven Kingdoms and the first of the three short stories is also about to get adapted into an HBO show too. So I was like, what the hell, I'll dive back into these and read these, they are very fun if you have not read them. There's only three of them that exist. There's a collection that came out in 2015 that collects all of them and it's kind of funny 'cause the collection ends with a little note from George R. Martin that's like, read on, there's gonna be more of these and it's been a decade. There's not more of these, but it takes place a hundred years roughly before the events of the main series and follows this hedge knight who's just some guy. He goes from castle to castle and tournament to tournament trying to find work basically and his goofy little squire who is potentially more interesting than he leads on. It takes a lot of the themes from the Game of Thrones series that are kind of spread out over hundreds and hundreds of pages, thousands at this point, really, and condenses them into these really quick hit little 120 page short stories. And I truly think it is probably George R. Martin at some of his best. The pacing can get a little wonky at times and I'm not sure even though this is in a collection that they are really intended to be read back-to-back the way I did. But there are a lot of fun if what you've been craving is something involving a song of ice and fire but you don't wanna read the main series again or for the first time. These are a lot of fun. I highly recommend them. And the Amazon. The HBO show is also based on all the trailers I've seen like shaping up to potentially be like a pretty fun and cool adaptation. So fingers crossed there at least. I think that's everything I've got. Do you guys have anything else or? - No. - No? Cool. Tori, where can people find you on the internet? - You can find me on the internet on Blue Sky at ToriDP98.BlueSky. That's social. Nate, what about you? - You can find me in the Discord that you're about to hear all about. - Oh my God, I'll talk about the Discord. - Wait, wait, wait. - Wait, wait, wait. - What? - Noah, you didn't give any word at your thoughts. Do you have a theme on it? Do you wanna just bring it back next week? - I can give, I'll give some brief word at your thoughts as our closing thought at the end unless you have something else. - Okay, let's go. - In the meantime, I'm on Discord as well. We are in the Discord server. We have a channel in the Discord server for the worst garbage podcast network of which our show is a part of. There are other shows, there are other channels and there are for shows on the network, like video game podtemism and girl mode and wave lengths. And it's a fun little community we have in there. So if you're interested and wanna learn more, there's more info in the description for the show. There's links you can get in there. It's a lot of fun. Other than that, the podcast is on Blue Sky at press hyphen start pod and you can also email us. Your thoughts about RPGs or anything else at [email protected]. The show art is by the artist tree-stay McGistis on Instagram and our music for the opener and closer from the artist Geist. You can listen to more of their stuff at NOAHGIST.pancamp.com. I think that's about everything. Do we wanna talk a little bit about word outro or another word at the end? Okay, cool. Everybody but the real sickos can log off now. I think word outro is fine. I don't know. It was really funny editing the show last week and listening to you like really limit that I was not playing it as much. I would really say that has more to do with how busy I've been recently than the update. So like I have played it a few times, like since I have recorded the podcast with you. I think my initial reaction was, oh my God, I hate this, because I really liked that the goal of it was to get to the end with like 10 energy so that you can just like bang out some points at the end. But I think like you and I were even texting a little bit about it, like I think it's interesting that it's kind of forcing people to do builds that they might not have done otherwise. Because like I've done like one or two daily where it's like every single time I beat the first round no matter what words I use or how many points I get, I'm only getting bonuses that are pushing me towards like one or two different builds. And it's like, and that will be like, I don't know, the use the same first letter over and over again or like only four letter words or something like that. And so I think it is forcing people to use different builds, which is cool. I do still think that like buffing your energy out is probably more overpowered than anything else. But like it's, but what do I know because I have not managed to get on the top 10 in like a month now? So I don't know. I've done it a few times. I had this one game where I think I finished in third when the day ended. I had like 550,000 points, which is like a ton now for the daily challenge. And I didn't even have that much energy when the game ended. I just somehow had like a fucking huge score during the game. Like I think my last word that I got in round 10 was over 150,000. And so then when I just had like my little three or four left overtaking and adding 20% to my score for the final calculation, it's like that 20% just counted for so much more than it usually does that it really like rocketed my score. Yeah, I like it. I think I did like how it was more. And I don't know, when things like this change, it just makes me think about like game preservation and shit and like how does that work with like, a game that exists online and just can be patched and be effectively different. And then it's like where my game got what I really like. Yeah, agreed. It's really kind of strange. And it's especially knowing that it's like one guy. So it's one guy. It can just the guy who made it is just like, yeah, you know, it's, I'm gonna change this completely. And I'm just gonna do that. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's my word outro thoughts. And with that. And with that. Thanks for listening to our podcast. (upbeat music) - KWG, the worst garbage, the online.