Episode 182: My partner creates problems

What's happening in the K9 industry? For all the latest news, views and expert opinions, stay right here for the K9 paradigm. You'll hear from industry leaders, experts, giants of the industry, learned colleagues, moveers and shakers, and the odd, randy guest. Get the latest insights and expert advice from both here and abroad from the people in the know. Now, here are your hosts, Glenn Cook and Pat Stewart and I'm lofty full-ton. And I'm out of here. Hey, have I told you about that dream? I had the other day. What dream? So, I had this dream. Was a sweaty dream? No. Okay. I was on this adventure. Yep. Well, I was in Germany during this dream. You're in Germany? Yeah. Were you wearing lead-a-howson? I was. Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. Definitely was. And I was drinking Steins of beer. And I just got this overwhelming need to buy a dog. Ooh, I think I know where you're going with this. Yeah, so I just popped on over to House Enberg Chepads. Oh, why wouldn't you? You'd have to. And I know that they have the best German Chepads, but the German Chepads. So, what one of their duchies? Oh, man. The best. Shit, mouthing German Chepads. And so, so then in this dream, I finished my giant beer and I took off my leaner-howson. Yep. And I got that duchy and I put it on a plane. Yep. Because they can ship it anywhere. Turns out I didn't even have to be there to buy this dog in this dream. Right. And I flew it over to the US. Yep. Right. So, when I got there, I realized I need some equipment for this dog, this duchy that I've got. Wait, were you in Canada or were you in the US? Well, I was in North America. I was somewhere. It's not important exactly. Okay. And so I thought, oh, you know what I need? Some like training gear, some collars, some leashes, harnesses. So guess where I got it from? It sounds like it's a big lead up to an old mate, Mh, La Pointe. I just got onto Canon Dynamics and had it shipped to me. It didn't matter where I was in the US or North America. Actually, I had Canon Dynamics shipped it to me. It was wonderful. Yeah. So anyway, then I'm out training this duchy in his all of these fancy equipment. The duchy that I got from House A and Burke Shepherds using the equipment I got from Canon Dynamics. And then I was training a dog park because that's how I trained. And there were some people and they had some sort of unruly behavior from their dog. And I think at this point I was in Ashland, Virginia. And I fancy that. I thought I said to them, they were like, "Oh, can you help us with this dog?" I said, "No, fuck you." I don't know. I'm a dog part. I said, "Fuck you, I don't want to." But I know someone who will come to your home here in Ashland, Virginia while you're at work and will do like a little bit of training session with your dog while you're gone. No way. You're not talking about Melanie Benway. It was Melanie Benway that was talking about. Kindred canine. So I gave those details. Anyway, so I went on to do some cool things with this duchy and then I had to come back to Australia. I brought the dog. But you know what I didn't bring. What? Was any of these equipment? He left it all there. I left it all there. So I needed all new gear. And guess where I got my leashes, collars, tugs, harnesses, dogmills, blah, blah, blah, blah, bullfed central. Ine's Wick dog quip. Ine's Wick bullfed. Yep. And when I got here I realized, "Oh, you know what? I had been traveling this fictional dog in my dream around in the crate that he was shipped from House Enberg Shepherds." Yep. And I needed a custom crate now. So I had a custom crate pill by the bullfed. Wow. Ine's Wick dog. Ine's a winner. Ine's a winner. Yeah. So after your dream, when you woke up, did you wake up with a boner? You've run it. [laughter] [music] Welcome back to the Can I'm Parrot I'm, I'm your host Pat Stewart. I'm joined in studio today by my co-host, Clint Cook. Welcome back to Australia, sir. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to have made entry without any quarantine requirements. Mm. I was legit terrified. Yeah, I know. I remember you telling me prior to going that one of your major concerns was a COVID outbreak happening either here or there and you're not being able to re-enter the country. Yeah. So for people who are listening, obviously Pat went over to New Zealand to do a seminar. New Zealand had an amazing time and blogged it. Yeah. I've blogged it. Yeah. I did a vlog of it. I'm really happy with it. I just watched it with you in the kitchen and you did an amazing job. Yeah. Thanks Patron team for funding their fund for. Yeah. And so the whole vlog is really, for me, it's practice in filmmaking skills. I'm kind of, I'm obsessed with it at the moment and like I, as I said in our group, when I posted it, I wanted, I've got a bunch of stories I want to tell and I'm just trying to develop the skill set within video production to do justice to the stories I want to tell. So like the vlog is just practice for that. But it went well, I think I'm pretty happy with it. And the seminar was amazing. It had an amazing time in New Zealand. But what was happening, what happened is leaving Customs in Australia. That's the first time I've done that since the great shot there. It's February 2020, I think, was the last time we both left the shores. Yeah. And so there's a new step when you put your, so first of all, it's like the airports, you know, empty. Put your passport into the machine to leave. And the first thing that comes up on the screen is like I acknowledge and consent to the fact that right now I have the ability to travel freely between Australia and New Zealand. Yeah. But that could change at any moment. Yeah. And then they sort of explained to you they're like, you know, things happen. So like even if there's not an outbreak, there's green and red zones within the airport. And if there's an administrative error and someone from the red zone walks into the green zone, and you're in the green zone and that happens, like you're gone in a quarantine as though you were at the red zone. Yeah. So it was a bit sort of I was like, stood there and stared at it for a good 10 seconds before I was like, yeah, okay, I acknowledge and consent to that. And then New Zealand did the same thing to you. So you then you cop it four times. So this like this could happen. And one of the reasons why you're inspired for that not to happen is Jane is about to hatch. Yes. Maybe. So if you worked out the name yet, like you have. Yeah. Yeah. We're thinking, you're going to an answer or is this a thing? We're still thinking about it. So we've got, we're like 90% sure on one. Yeah. But we'll wait until we see him to make sure. Okay. But yeah. So I just don't have time to quarantine. So yeah, I'm going to Brisbane for the IJP Nationals this weekend and then I'm Sunshine Coast the following weekend. And so that would have, I would have missed both those things if I was quarantined. So anyway, it didn't happen. It's all good. I'm back. Wonderful time in New Zealand. Thank you so much to the guys that hosted me there. It was wonderful. I think I'm like, obviously had a great time. Facility was good. People were good all that. But also like, it could have been terrible and I would have still thought it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just a stop opportunity to get back to doing it. They could have kicked me in the dig call me and I'll say I would have been like, this is the best true battle guys. But now it was great. They were fantastic. So yeah. Happy to be back. Very cool. Yeah. What's going on? What are we talking about? I was looking online the other day as we generally do when we source what type of topics what we want to talk about being a people's show and all. And one of the topics that was floating around a lot of the time, I heard people mentioning it on our favorite app clubhouse. And I also read it online and Instagram and Facebook that people get increasingly frustrated about how much effort and time and value they put into their dogs training only to have it ruined or disregarded by their inferior. They're all there of singing. Being inferior, I shouldn't say that, they're significant other. I heard one of the ladies on the line online was saying that her inferior other had pushed her training back by about three months because he was doing things with the dog that were rewarding the dog being outrageously disobedient. And things that he found funny and she said, I just find that infuriating and disappointing that I put in this work for us only to have it set back. And I thought to myself, wow, the amount of times I've heard that in a career of dog training and I'm sure in the term that you've been involved in it, probably many people who are trainees in our industry who listen to this podcast, it's one thing that comes up regularly. It's a topic that we have touched on and we've mentioned and it's been a, you know, it's probably in one of those ask us anything episodes. But I thought, you know, it is a significant problem. It is something around the world. It's a global epidemic in households where regularly, both the custodians of the dog, if you want to call them that, both custodians of the dog, have a difference of opinion on how the dog trained. It's rare that you will get a couple that synchronize and understand, you know, this is how it is and this is how it's got to be. So, you and I, we both know individually and we know collectively people where that does happen, where for arguments say it might be a household where it's a sporting dog, regardless of whether the handler is the husband or the wife or partner or whoever it is, the other accepts this dog can't be messed with. And they might have, you know, like an understanding where the dog is separated from the other person for a period of time because they really don't want any sort of misalignment in all the work that they're trying to do during that period of time. So I thought it's a good topic. It's an interesting point because it's something that Narell and I have even talked about when we're doing things with the dogs, like she might say for argument's sake with the Frenchies that she spends time getting them under control and I do all the fun stuff with them. So they were rewarded by antics that she thinks isn't really approved and she's right because I fuck up the things that she likes to do with the dogs to maintain them because I find other things are funnier and I'm prepared to live with it but Narell says, "Well, that's not really fair for me when you're not considering that I'm trying to calm them down because I spend 90% of the time with them." and I'm doing the feeding and I'm doing the, you know, like the talleting and so forth. And I kind of thought, well, I've just read this online and I'm looking at it from the point of view of the person who is putting in the work and you're right, I'm being the asshole at home. That is ruining her control mechanisms that she's putting in place to keep them, you know, more in line with the behavior that's more acceptable for being inside. So here we are with the topic. Let's talk about it. - Well, I think there's two layers to it. I think that that issue can sometimes be used as an excuse in training. And I don't think that it necessarily carries over to behaviors as in monkey drills, as in healing and all blah, blah, blah, versus behavior, modification and lifestyle type stuff. So I think sometimes we hear people say, you know, there's an issue of drive and motivation and even precision because my partner trained to dog in a particular way or somebody else trains a dog and they've caused this issue. I'm not gonna buy that so much because I think that it's very contextual. And so I've seen your dogs and I've had dogs that are really highly trained for one person in the living situation and like a sloppy mess for the other. And the dog just reads it and goes, hey, like you know how to reinforce me appropriately and you provide consequences, positive and negative for action and inaction, whereas you, the other partner doesn't, so you'll get a different version of me, right? So like I think that dogs and people, you kind of play the character that you're assigned within the social context. - Yeah, the transformative, right? - Yeah. So like take my own life, for example, Remy works for me and he doesn't really do anything, Jane says and it's not for lack of like something she's done or hasn't done. It's just he doesn't do anything anybody says, really other than me. And so it's not that she can say that he's untrained or just pays her off or something like that. It's like that's how he's living situation is with everybody. And I don't mind that because she doesn't take him out and work him like he does. I don't need him to listen to anybody other than me. - Yep. - But what we have to align, and that's so that's the first part, is like the actual training with monkey drills. Like, you know what dog trainers want to teach their dogs to do tricks or whatever. I just think you can't blame your partner or person you live with for undermining those things. But what you certainly can blame them for is lifestyle stuff because that's where the dog is reading both and it's like, okay, like within this home, how do I live? Like what are the rules within here? And then I think it's possible that a dog sort of reads a play and says, when person A is here, the rules are this and when person B is here, the rules are this. And then when they're both together, I have to find a level that appeases everybody. You know, I think that that's possible. But I think for sure when you deal then with say, reactivity issues or, you know, like when you're fixing problems, that's where the actions of one person within a household can massively underpin, undercut, you know, fuck up the actions of another. Like if your dog has a reactivity issue, let's just make up an example like their scared of the back door or whatever, right? And you're slowly convincing them that's not a scary thing and your desensitized counter condition and you're like three months into a six month protocol and you're on track and it's all going really well. In your absence, that could just be pulled out from underneath you by the sloppy actions of someone else or the, you know, not careful or uncalculated actions of someone else. That can be stolen from you and an incident because that is you were in that moment attempting to change who the dog is. And so who the dog is can be influenced by everyone the dog interacts with. I think that's fair to say, right? Like that's who the dog is in his mind, his personality and how he fits into the world. He's subject to inputs from everybody he encounters to make a decision about that kind of thing. So if he's reactive about things, other people can make him more reactive. But so I think you definitely can blame your partner in that situation. But it's when it's the monkey drills of like, oh, he's sitting slow because my partner lets him sit slow. I just don't buy that, you know? Like I just don't get that because take for example, like it used to be that when Ripple was staying at my parents' place a couple days a week before he started school, Valerie would go with him and Valerie would do stuff for my dad and he would, she would do it, right? Like she would do what he says, but not with the same precision that she would do it for me. And those two versions of her existed at the same time. Like it was never as though I had to then, like the way he trained her and did things with her caused me any change in what she did for me because she was just like, this is Pat's style of reinforcing me and what he expects before that reinforcement comes and the actions he will take in order to make sure that those behaviors go ahead versus my dad's style of reinforcing her and the actions he would take in order to make sure those things go ahead. So they don't seem to read the play on that. - Yeah, that's where the transformative behavior comes from. - Yeah, it's kind of like children, you know, like the way a child will behave for the mother versus the way the child will behave from the father. - Totally. - And, you know, I used to say to people to use the analogy a lot when we were talking about this very subject was as a child, you'd love your mother but you'd have a bit of disdain for it. You know, she was generally the work around, especially a boy and a mother relationship. You could sort of gleam a lot more from mum then you could for dad. But when mum wanted to keep you online, she would say these words to you and I remember these words echoing in my head as a child, you wait until your father gets home. That was terrifying for me. The hearing those words was that instantly got me to behave because I wouldn't do the same thing for him that I would do for her. - Right, yeah. - Was that you'd just say that's because he was willing to use punishment in a way that she wasn't. And so, like-- - He just didn't have the same tolerance that mum did. - Yeah, so his consequences came sooner. - Much sooner. - And were more aversive. - Yeah, like for lack of a better word. More worth listening to. - Absolutely. - And so she could, that's what's interesting about sort of like human relationships versus and training versus dog training is like you can't threaten the consequence of something far in the future unless you've personally done it yourself, you know. So like you can't say to the dog, you wait until Glenn gets here. They just makes no sense to it. - Yeah. - So you can't alter the behavior of a dog because of the actions of someone else, like a threat of the action of someone else. - No, they don't understand the future concept of it. They exist in the hearing now. - Yeah. I guess that would be the power of then. Like your mom saying to you, you wait until your dad gets home, that is a marker that predicts a particular type of punishment. And if you could do that with a dog, like you could have a neutral tone that wasn't something that somebody says, a neutral tone within the house that one person was willing to follow through with and the other wasn't, then one person could, the person who wasn't willing to follow through with that would be able to use it. Maybe, I don't know. I doubt that would work because then, it would only take one rep of the consequence not coming in the dog's hour, yeah, got it. Then that doesn't work. - So one of the comments that I read online was a particular lady talking about her frustrations. And these aren't sporting people or dog training people. These are general public dogs that we're talking about. And she was talking about the level of work that she puts into the dog, you know, like how she spends all this time calculating diet and she listens to her neural stuff and so forth. So she's doing all that raw feeding, you know, like measuring everything out. So she says, you know, like I do this for the dog and I spend all this time and, you know, because I work from home, I've, you know, like I do all the toileting, I do the routines with the dogs, I keep them calm, I keep them under control, I walk them, I do this, I do that. And then when my husband comes home, you know, like all he does is get the toys out and he's the fun guy. So then I have to be the fun police and I have to police the actions of the dogs. And she said it puts us at odds with each other because I feel like instead of him coming home and supporting me, he comes home, the dogs are happy to see him, he gets their toys, they play tug of war, they run all around the lounge room, they mess everything up, the dogs knock things over and she said, but that never happens for me when I'm at home. And I saw somebody respond to that and they said, yeah, but that's the relationship, the dogs and your husband enjoy together. And they said, maybe if you find time to enjoy that relationship and share in that together, but it was kind of saying something to me because she just didn't really want to engage in that. Like that wasn't her idea of enjoying the dogs. - Right. - So maybe that says something about how you view your ideal world. And I looked at that was there were a lot of layers and mechanisms of control in there where the husband, it was my dogs when I come home from a stressful job and this is interpretation, this is not exact 'cause I didn't engage in this conversation. I was just reading it as a subject matter for talking about and digesting. But it kind of looked at it from the husband's point of view and this is not a man versus woman thing. It's just let's take any sex out of that and put person A and person B. When person B gets home from work and you know they've had a stressful day they've been around people all the day, they see the dogs which are happy to see them immediately. The dogs light up, they light up and think, oh this is relief, this is fun. The dogs are happy to see me, I'm happy to see them, work sucked all day. I had to go somewhere where I didn't really want to be to earn an income but now I'm where I want to be. I'm back in my zone, I'm back with my fam, you know like we're having a good time, we're spending time together, we're doing fun stuff and in their existence right there and then that's their perfect world of being together. But when the partner is there, then saying, "Well, that's not what I like. I don't like seeing that. I don't like seeing that level of what I consider a lack of discipline or a lack of control or a lack of respect for me." And it's an interesting one because I'm very much of a belief in one of the key words that I tout here at work a lot when we're talking and when we're having disagreements or there has been some sort of fallout or a misunderstanding is perspective. In our meetings at work, that's one thing that we talk about a lot of the times is what's your perspective because this is mine. So I think that when people are adults with each other over situations like this, I guess really what needs to happen is an understanding of perspective. Like, here is it from my point of view with the dogs and this is how it affects me or this is the way that I see it and then allow the other person or the party to be involved in that conversation where they're coming together and saying, "Well, this is my perspective." You know, and rather than it be, "Well, you win or I win, why not find some sort of middle ground where they can work on it together, where there can be more investment?" And I know that doesn't always work because it's a time commitment thing sometimes and people aren't just doing a 38-hour week. They're at work for 38 hours and then when you include travel time for the average person of an hour in the morning and hour in the evening, that's another, what's that, 14 hours on top of that. So we're talking like 50 hours a week of being involved in some sort of professional outfit, whereas when you come home, really what you don't want to be involved in is more discipline and more structure and more layers unless you like that, unless you like that. But some people just want to come home and they just want to kick around with the dogs. But then if you don't talk perspective, I think you have to then. So, you know, in that example, you've just painted there, right? Yeah. Person A is at home with the dogs and wants lower-rowsal dogs and person B comes home and likes higher-rowsal dogs. That's fine. So long as like watching somebody else do something they enjoy that it doesn't float your bow is totally fine when that doesn't affect you. And I think when you're going to talk perspective, that's the lens I think it has to go through. Absolutely. Is like, I can watch someone do something that I would dream of doing and I don't like doing, I would never do. But I can look at that and go, I see you enjoying this. It doesn't affect me in any way, shape or form. So have at it. Have a good time. But it's the affecting. But when it does affect you. Yeah. When it leads into that crosses over. And I think the big issue, like when I see have seen similar issues in the household, when people are at odds, it's usually because someone has some level of dog training acumen and they see where that behavior goes. So it's like, okay, I'm here with the dogs and it's not that I don't like higher-rowsal. It's that I have to deal with the, I don't like dealing with the consequences of it. And so then they're at home, they keep the dogs lower rowsed or whatever. And then the other person comes home and brings the dog into a high state of a rowsal and then it bends it. Because that's one of the, and then leaves the first person. That I can understand that I will say with that, I totally agree with because that's not perspective and that's not considerate. Yeah. And that's, I think, one of the biggest sources of, well, I guess reactivity is the right word, right? Like where it's just that reactivity is the blanket statement that we give to, there's a rowsal that I don't like and it could be for many reasons. But I think that's what people mean when they say the dogs reactivate. It's like, he's a roused and I don't like the reason. Yeah. And you know, you see it all the time, friends of mine do it to my own dogs and that kind of stuff. And it's such a common trait, especially, I guess, because people are probably used to very lower rowsal dogs, but people who will bring a dogs a rowsal level up in a home and then just be like, good luck and not see that through. So you see people, you know, they'll be sitting on the couch, the dogs on the floor and the dogs kind of looking at you sort of, you know, half fire on you, half fire asleep and you look at the dog and you stare and you give, you know, like almost like intent, like, hey, do you want to play? And the dog then stands up and is like, well, of course I do, right? And then people do like a little, like a sharp move gesture or something like that. And it brings the dog right up into rowsal and the dog goes, okay, like now I've got, like you, yes, I do. I consent to this game. Let's do it. And then people go, that's the end of the game. And then the dog's like, hang on. I was just a fucking sleep. Did you just ask your dog for consent? Yeah. But the dog says, hang on man, I was asleep. I was happy to enjoy your calm, relaxed, lower rowsal company. Yep. You kicked me into drive. And now I've got nowhere to put that. And that's how the dog becomes destructive and all the things that people then label as reactive and they have issues with the dog more often than not. It's because they've brought the dog into that level of rowsal and they're not satiated that level of rowsal. So, you know, they've like literally turned the dog on and then been like, good luck dealing with that yourself, right? And so then the dog's like, well, like you invited me to a game. I'd said yes. And then you took away the game. But I'm already in that high rowsal mindset, like I can't just turn this off. And I think that's where you see big problems in households is where one person really understands that and then says like, I won't bring up the level of a rowsal and the dog unless I can satiate that drive. Yep. And a lot of people, I think this is one of the issues that certainly I see in the working dog space. And so then it has to be a thousand times worse in the pet space is people satiating the wrong drive. So you know, you bring the dog into like, you know, a prey type of rowsal or just play, I would say play and then feed it. And the dog's like, hey, that's not what I wanted, right? Like I like food and I'll show you something that looks similar when you offer me food. I'll show you a high level of rowsal. But that's a different drive. Yep. You can't satiate this play that I want to have with food. That's not going to tick the box. So of course the dog eats the food. But then he's like, hey, like I'm still ready to go. Yeah, I'm still done. My energy's up. And then people are like, no, I gave it to you. Fuck you. Yeah. You're the dog you go do dog stuff. And the other person in the household then is like, oh, well, now I have to go and like, first of all, I have to clean up your mess. Yeah. Well, and maybe literally right because now you've brought that dog into a level of a rowsal where the dog's going to start bucking like a bronco throughout the house or he's going to knock things over or whatever it could be. Now I have to either go and like fulfill that drive that you just brought that dog into. So like now I have to go play with the dog even though I was busy doing something else. Or I'm the one that now has to be the discipline area and bring the dog down. And you know, like whatever you do to bring down that level of a rowsal on the dog. So the dog then looks at you as the fun killer. So you're the fun starter. And the dog then is you get the problem person who turns on the dog. And then the other person who understands dog behavior and sees where that's going, then has to be the fun place. And it's like, hey, you can't do that. Come back down. I think sometimes and certainly I've seen this in when you do in home behavior mode is to some people that's the game. Right? Like I bring the dog up in it because you know, I'm the king of the castle. Right? And I control everybody in the house because you get those fucking assholes. And it's like I bring the dog up into a high level of a rowsal and now good luck all of you. The dog I've just, yeah, dog only listens to me. I've displaced you. Right? So the dog now is like highly aroused. And now I'm in a sit here and watch you have to fix the dog. And you see, I mean, I've seen people do that. And like when you explain that to people because I'm sure I've caused divorces. I'm positive that probably a year later after you expose that to the people and you go, yeah, when you say to the wife, you go, you're living with a jerk off. Yeah. You know, I was like, you know, this is his control mechanism over you. Right? Like he does this on purpose to fuck you around. And then when they, yeah, I don't know that I've ever said it quite like that to everybody. Right? There's been a long time since I've dealt with any, this specific problem. And it's one that I've seen plenty of times where you're like, Hey, you're doing this because it exerts control over everybody in the house. Right? And you get people that that's important, especially as you just said, shit, we're going to get deep into like psychological profile for two decades. I don't have any calls in it. But like if you've been at work all day and you've been getting bossed around by your jerk off boss, yeah, and then you come home and there's like a couple of people you can now like flip the switch on. That's how, how plays happen all the time, right? So I get it. This chick that was always someone that needs to be kicked down the line. Yeah. So this chick that's complaining about her, what it is, well, not needs to be. That's the wrong choice of words that gets kicked down. Yeah. Yeah. So this chick that you saw complaining about her insignificant other or whatever. Yeah. I mean, first of all, to be using that language, there's some deep problems going on. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Right? If you're calling your life partner, your insignificant other, there's bigger issues than the arousal level of the dog in the house. That's the language they kind of use. I just get a bag of popcorn and start reading or I'm flicking through there because this is where I come up with some of the ideas to chat about. Like I look at things that people write online. I think, oh, there's some spiciness going on there. Yeah. That's some tasty stuff to get into the podcast. And I was reading it the other day. Well, I don't know. I was just waiting for something. I thought, I'll go into the forums and see what people are talking about. See what's in the site, guys. Yeah. It's pretty much that's some of the language that people are using. I thought, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine calling my wife my insignificant other like that's about as offensive a thing as you can say, Eric. Yeah. But I think for sure that is like aside from the malicious intent that we just kind of inferred was possible. I think that that's something that happens all the time. And I think that it can just be a pain. of if that person was alone with the dog, they'd have this destructive, reactive dog and they'd blame the dog. And you go, well, actually made it the way you treat the dog. And when you get two of those people together who lived the life like that, then that they're the people that have that pain in our stock or have to get in a dog trainer. And that's how we meet those people, right? But when you get one who either is the dog trainer or has the acumen to understand that and the other that doesn't, and I guess everybody enjoys dogs in different ways, right? I think that's one of the things-- - And each other. - You enjoy each other in different ways. - Yeah, and you can enjoy the same dog in many ways as well. Like I have high-drive dogs and my enjoyment comes from doing high-drive activities with them. But that's not to say I don't also enjoy sitting on the couch with them. Like I enjoy that very, very much, right? So I think that you've got to be able to play off both. Oh man, you could distill it all down. It's like everything in dog training is like, you can have a lot, but you can't have it all. You know, like you can't have everything at once. You've got to decide, you've got to compartmentalize things and go like, okay, like how are we going to manage this? What's important to me and what's my number one priority and then what's my second priority, right? But for sure, I think it's definitely something we see quite a lot is that one person causes all the issues and the other person is trying to stop them. - Regularly. - Yeah. And that's the issue of dog trainers, you know, like as a relationship counselors, which we really are not qualified in, but is what we find ourselves doing a lot. - It's incredible. The amount of times and I'm echoing on a point that you made before where you're either repairing, saving or destroying a marriage based on what you tell that person next. And I mean, like I've had to have some very, very careful and considerate conversations with people over the years where you know, when you sit down and you realize that you're the mediator between two people who have stopped talking to each other, which has happened several times where I've been in the, like they're saying to me, you need to tell her that this is how it's got to be from here on in. And they're looking at me saying, well, you can tell him. And I said, guys, like we're all adults, you got to understand, I know that you're really angry with each other. And obviously there's something here that I can't deal with, the dog behavior and helping you regenerate some lines of communication. Maybe I don't know. And I said, but the marriage looks, I'm gonna be honest, the marriage looks in a diabolical situation at the moment because you won't even look at each other. And I said, it's you're radiating so much heat between the two of you. I recall this conversation with a couple of Melbourne where I was sitting in that living room. It was a cold Melbourne day, but you could feel the heat from these two, the anger and the disdain they had for each other. And I said, you really need to decide whether this is about the dog because it doesn't feel about the dog to me. They separated literally not because of me. I just said, you need to go and see a professional. You need to see somebody who's a counselor or a psychologist or something because honestly, this is not my willhouse. - Yeah, well, mate, a line I've been fighting myself saying quite a lot lately is this is outside of my spectrum of specialty. - Yep. - I got ambushed recently by a client of mine's doctor, psychologist and occupational therapist all at once as I was going into a session, wanting to ask about his capacity to function without his assistant's dog. And I was like, I am the fucking dog trainer. Like all of you have letters before or after your name. I have none of those things, right? I am literally here to train the dog. Like how dare you even infer the responsibility of that to me? Like I gave him a serve. I was like, I'm the fucking dog trainer. Like I'm the one that comes in here and make sure that the dog doesn't shit in the house. - Yep. - That's my skill level. Like I'm not here to solve these level of issues. And that's up to you. All I can tell you is like his capacity to train the dog and care for the dog. That's all I'm here to do. I know the client very well, like I've been in his life for five years, but you guys are the fucking experts in this space. Like I have to stay within my lane. - Right. - I can think as dog traders, we're very often required to or invite it out of our lane. And sometimes you got no choice. You do what you got to do in the moment, but especially that day, I was like, okay, this is a fucking ambush. You are asking me questions. I'm not qualified to answer here. So that when you make the decision, what it was that day, it was like, so when you put in the paperwork, the dog trainer said this, you absolve yourself of responsibility. And I said, I might have zero fucking qualifications, but I'm not the dumbest person in the room. Like I'm not gonna be the full guy. That's not how this is going down. So no, I will not say the things that you've asked me to say. - Yep. So basically they can ascend to the heavens and leave you squirreling around on earth going, - Oh! - Yeah. - Exactly. Yeah, look, it's a crazy one. And it hasn't only plagued me or you or just the people in our circle, but when you deep dive into this and you look at it through the access to social media more so, but when you're speaking to people in different camps who have been involved in behavioral and wild in-home in the pet dog industry, it is something that really like people are just not ready for it. They go in into a house and an argument starts evolving in front of them and they're thinking, "Oh, holy shit, I wasn't prepared for this. I didn't know that's what I came here to resolve." And really, you're not qualified to resolve that. - Yeah. - There's no training that I know of that exists in that space other than probably spending some time with Bertie on how to better prepare yourself for it, which Bertie, if you're listening to this episode, it's probably not a bad one for you to consider putting something like that together. Because if you are in the pet dog industry, I'm telling you now, it's probably a one in five ratio that you will come up with that you're gonna get into that space. It used to be like that for me. And when I first got into it, I come home and Narell would say to me, how was it? And I go, it was intense. There was some pretty intense fireworks in that home over the dog. I remember one time the wife grabbed me by the hand, she came in and said, "Oh, it's down on the couch and bring my husband in "and we both need to talk to you. "You have to tell us who's right and who's wrong." And I said, "That's an incredible burden to put me under." And I said, "I don't even know what the story is." She goes, "What we're gonna tell you?" I said, "Let's take some heat out of this to start with." Let's just talk at a contained level. And I said, "Cause there's a lot of excitement around this already." And I said, "You both already highly aroused. "Let's bring the heat out of it." Let's stay with the facts. No name calling or anything like that. Like, why don't we just take a look at the dog first? And let me have a look at what the dog is doing and what I can see. And then let me sit down then with you. They were etching, etching to get into the story. Like just about jumping out of their own skin. And I said, "Let's just take it slowly. "Let's take a step back." It took me time to be able to be able to confidently have a discussion with people like that because it was very intimidating when it happened to me when I was a younger trainer and a less experienced trainer going to the house 'cause I was already dealing with my nerves around that situation of, "I don't wanna fuck this up and I don't wanna say the wrong thing." Because then you feel like, "I've gotta say something favorable here." So I come off the good guy. But now what I explain to people, and I don't really do a lot of in-homes or sessions like I used to, I just don't have time to do it. But when I used to do it and I got my confidence up, I'd explain to people, "I'm not here as the good guy or the bad guy. "I'm literally here as an observer "to tell you what I can see about the dog's behavior. "How you can re-evaluate your relationship "and the dog's relationship to better suit your outcomes." - Yeah, you can modify that behavior. - Exactly, yeah, that was what I was looking for, those were it. So how you can modify that behavior. But as I said, I'm not here to play favorites or I'll tell you that somebody won or somebody lost. It's not really about that. It's about what the house needs to do in order to get the best out of the dog. So everybody can win. And that's really what we should be looking for, right? And you know, you'd sort of see people like looking at you going, that's not really what I wanted. I wanted you to come and tell this asshole that they're wrong. But you can't walk away from that situation and there's no conclusion after that. It's just another layer of another fight that's destined to come. Whereas I think what you need to do is you need to say, basically guys, I'm Switzerland about the fighting. I'm just here for the resolution. That's what I'm here for. Not to come here and kick us. You might have a different way of doing it. I don't know how you do it. I mean, you do have been significant things in the past where I've said, you know, like I pulled someone aside and said, you got to stop doing this. Like really, it just doesn't resolve well for anybody for this to continue to happen. You might see a bit of smirking or if it's another guy and I'm a guy, it's kind of like, oh, come on man, you know what it's like. And I said, no, not really. I wouldn't put my wife in this position to do this or I wouldn't put the dog in this position to do it. When I was a younger guy, I might have agreed with him because I might have thought, you know, I want to be cool and I want to get people off side. I want people to think that I'm here and I'm with that and I'm on your side or anything like that. But as you develop, I think you're changing it and you mature in it and you develop more of an understanding of really what needs to be done to benefit the dog. And after all, we're kind of champions of the dogs in our field. That's kind of the management process that we've taken on. So when you're a champion of the dog, you've got to go in there and say, really guys, this is what I see and this is what needs to change. And you guys really need to have a strong conversation now about how everybody is going to set about change in that. - Yeah, you know, in circumstances like that, that's where I lean into the highly scientific language because it removes that emotion. So when you're saying to people like, you know, you've got to radically change the way they live with the dog in order for everybody to, you know, be happy and safe. When you're telling people, hey, what you're doing is wrong because you're causing these issues, that's where I refer to the base definition of reinforcement. - Yep. - Or I say the reason that is happening is because you're reinforcing it. And it's like, I don't want it to happen. And I'm like, no, I know. but you are through action, increasing the frequency and likelihood of the behavior. And that is the definition of reinforcement. And so like for me, in that sort of tension within the in-home behavior mode type staff, that's how I usually remove the tension from the situation is becoming extremely clinical in my language and scientific. And that means, you know, sometimes we hear people say, you know, when you're in like people don't care about operant conditioning and classical conditioning, they just need to hear the answer to their problem. And sometimes I agree. Like sometimes when you just, when it's an easy, easy solution, you go, I just don't do this anymore or start doing this. They don't need the lecture on when someone's you're teaching the dog to be calm before going outside, wait at the door and that kind of stuff. You say, you know, like restrict him here and wait until he gives that behavior and then open the door or whatever. You don't need to go into the deep science of it. But when you start getting emotional and it's because of the way the people live with the dog, that for me is that's the line in the sand where I absolutely go, okay, we can remove all the emotion from this and be very clinical and say, your actions, whether you want them to be or not, are reinforcing. And people go, you know, like, I don't and you go, no, no, no, I mean in the scientific term, right? Like you are increasing the frequency and likelihood of the behavior. And then you can go into those funny examples where you can say, you know, you explain offering conditioning to people and you say, if a dog's trying to bite you and it's intent on biting you and you kick it in the head and it that makes it want to bite you more, that's technically positive reinforcement, right? Because you've done something, you've added something that increases the frequency and likelihood. So it's like, we need to just get very scientific on those terms. And especially an example like that that's so outrageous, right? That really allows people to then go, oh, right. And put that filter over the whole thing. And then you can start addressing the way you live with this dog is reinforcing the behaviors because the dog is getting something from it or you know, it's causing it blah, blah, blah. But you never need to look people in the eye and say, you're the problem. You can then say, hey, because of circumstance and situations and the way your dog perceives it and blah, blah, blah, that's reinforcing. It's going to continue to increase the frequency and likelihood. And then that's where a lot of the times where I find this kind of thing super helpful is with dogs for sure, but with kids as well. Because when you tell someone how you're not doing right by that dog, a lot of people go, fuck what do I do? I don't know, like how am I meant to know? It's my first dog, right? And a lot of people will find by that. But you can't say that to someone in their kid and nor would I. But sometimes if you can see someone digging a hole for themselves and you want to offer help, you know, I'm very careful who I do this stuff to because you raise your kid you do it ever, right? That's none of my business. But when their friends with my kid and then their influence my kid, it becomes my business at that point, right? And recently with one of Rips friends, the kid got like they did something. I kind of remember what it was, but the kid got given a timeout and he talked his way out of it, right? They both did it and Rips tried to talk his way out of it, but there was none. I was like, no, you're getting that you're going to your room and you're staying there until for 10 minutes or whatever it was. And then the other kid is then waiting basically. And I said to the guy, because he's a friend, I said, hey, yeah, that's a bad move, right? And it's like, what do you mean? And then what he said was he goes, oh, because the smirk on the kid's face, like the kid knew he won and the guy identified that. And I was like, that, but really is because he talked his way out of what was meant to be a punishment, which means he escaped it. Yep. And the difference between punishment and negative reinforcement is there's a way out of negative reinforcement and there's no way out of punishment. So he will continue to push your buttons knowing there's a way to turn off the pressure that you've applied. Right? And I think it went over his head. I don't think he fully understood what I was saying, but I was like, I will be effective. Like my kid ain't coming out and doing that again. Right? But yours is because he knows when you say that he's in trouble, he knows how to turn off that trouble. My kid knows there's no way other than doing the time. All right? They're going to be separated for 10 minutes. I don't see each other very often. That's a big hit to both of them, right? But your kid's going to continue that path. And it becomes, you know, that's a fucking tricky conversation to have with people about the kids. But when you can apply the very scientific knowledge and you say, hey, because there was a way out of the pressure you applied, that's negative reinforcement. That's not punishment. The punishment there can be no escape only avoidance, right? However, something to consider on that is while you're talking to me, and my brain was ticking over is what did the kid really win when they were still separated anyway? That's why it had to go the way it did is because then, but then I'm the asshole. Right? Like we're back to the original topic of one person treating the other. And I have to have to talk with the rip after I'm like, hey, man, like he doesn't understand the science of it, but he knows like in that moment, I feel it looks like I'm the bad guy, but I'm the good guy. I'm doing this because you got to learn, right? You guys can't be punching each other in the face like that. Like you've got to, when the situation escalates, I have to put a stop to it in a way where you'll never let it escalate that way again. And of course, we see is like he learns to modulate his behavior and be more appropriate and socialize better and blah, blah, blah, all those things. It's interesting, there's the literature on kids is fascinating. How many young boys are very aggressive, right? And have to be socialized through that. It's like a quarter of them. And what happened? Like, man, I can remember, there was this cafe near our place. It was like a, it was called Highton Segal's, a kid's cafe, like a kid's friendly cafe. It was like, there was like a jungle gym kind of thing you could just put the kids in. And we used to go there all the time and then just one day ripped us out, punch and everyone in the head, right? Like straight up, and it's about two years old and it's a really dangerous time. I'm really glad I was aware of what was happening because you think, oh, what's going wrong with my kid, but it's really normal, but it's very embarrassing because your kids causing all the issues. Now, they can't hurt each other. Thank God, right? They're like two years old. It's kind of no big deal. But when he's just straight up unprovoked attacking, like violently attacking within their capacity to do it, other kids, a lot of people then, and this is what we see with dogs as well, the literature on this is on humans, but I think it applies 100% to puppies is that then, you know, you're mortified that this is happening. Where did this come from? I don't promote this behavior, so you never put the kid in that situation again. And that's what a lot of people do to the dog as well. They see a little bit of aggression, reactivity or whatever. And they're like, oh, I'm not going to be the person with the aggressive dog. So they never go into that situation again. And that is self-fulfilling prophecy. You become the person with the aggressive dog because you don't socialize through it. Yeah, yeah. I totally support that. And that's what happens with kids. And the literature explains, you got to like, you got to socialize them through it. You get back on the horse. Yeah. And so man, we were there all the time with the little trouble making kid, but it was like, you know, a few weeks. And then it's it's gone. But you see now, other kids that, you know, one in four, it's a super common thing that didn't get socialized through it. Our life long going to have aggression management issues, right? And they're going to be those aggressive personality types. So like it's understanding that kind of stuff, I think is super important. But yeah, we should talk dogs, not kids because it's so far outside our wheelers. It is, but it's interesting how it all correlates and how the science was evolved to cross over between species. Yeah. It's still relatable because we're still talking about behavioral sciences to a degree. And I agree that neither you or I experts in raising children or you are more than I am. Well, one one kid that's doing pretty good. And you've got one in another one way. Yeah. But the reality is, in a situation like that, I often relate to and think back on when I was reading the 12 rules of life from Jordan Peterson. Yeah. And he was pretty much words to the effect of stating that kids only get one set of parents. They don't need to be their best friends. They need to be their parents. They need to mentor them through life. Yeah. And I agree wholeheartedly with that. When I watch parents that are too caught up in their children's lives and want to know everything and micromanage everything and try and be their best friend and everything like that, it's your children, right? So if you listen to this and you think, get fuck, Glenn, you're not even a father. You know, like how how dare you? Fair enough. That's fine. I'll cop that on the chin. But when I do see parents doing that and their kids have got no respect for them and treat them like a mate rather than parents, I kind of think, well, that's that's what you generated. You know, and I watch people do that same sort of thing with their dogs too, where they want this level of control. They want this level of respect, but they don't do anything to cultivate it. Yeah. And I do agree that parents do need to, you are their only parents, the only parents they'll ever have. So if your mothers and mothers and fathers and fathers or mothers and fathers or whatever mixture you are, really, when you look at the sensibility behind it, you're the only people that your children can come back to and say, you're my parents, you won't know every single thing they need to do. I mean, you need to raise them to a standard where you can empower them to learn about that. And when they're old enough, they can go out into the world and say, because my parents spent that or my parent spent the time with me and was able to, and I know this is not always the same. You know, like there are caveats in place where that's hard. That's very hard to do. But to the best of your ability, if you can empower that child, like we're talking about in raising puppies and into capable and competent dogs, if you can do the same thing with your child, that child will be empowered forevermore in their life to look toward any challenge. And basically say, you know, my mum and dad or my parents taught me how to combat these systems and how to feel comfortable around it. Or if I'm feeling really fucked up about it, I can go back to them and saying, "Mum and dad, I'm not coping well. What should I do?" And maybe they're the same people say, "Well, we don't know, but we can look into it for you." You know, like we are family after on, we can cultivate some sort of answer together. I think in a household, people need to have that same sort of understanding with the dog. as well. Yes, dogs are fun and you definitely want to enjoy them. And some people call them fur babies and so forth. But in the reality, we're a different species. And again, to preach on reality, in reality, you need to understand that whatever your dog does is because of the environment it was raised in, to a high degree. Yeah, there's not a way to get it component. That's right. There is, again, when we talk about caveats in and out of things, there are caveats where you can basically say, well, genetics does dictate a certain degree of things. But there's the old saying that I keep saying to people all the time is the dog is a product of the environment it was raised in. And again, with the caveat of genetics, of course. Yeah. I think the trick with dealing in modifying behavior is consistency, right? And I think that's what gets left behind in the conversation sometimes with kids as much as with puppies. And we should keep talking about puppies, not kids, but it's about that being consistent. And you never want to be the like, you know, back to what you were talking about with the two people in the household at the start. Like, I don't want to be the fun police all the time, right? Like, I don't want to be having to stop the good times. But when the good times are dangerous or the like the good times become the dangerous times, like, I've got to stop that. And I've got to stop that consistently. So you know that it's never available. Yeah. And I think that's, that's what kind of gets tricky with young dogs and being in the house is when people are like, man, I just don't want to be on his ass all the time. And that's the role of management where we're like, hey, well, don't put him in a position to do the wrong thing. If you're not prepared to 100% every time he does something that's inappropriate within the house, provide the consequence for that, then don't let it happen. Because the real issue is the inconsistent consequence. First of all, like the lack of consequence for a behavior that's cute and a puppy that then becomes a huge problem in an adult dog. Yep. That's a big issue. But the inconsistent consequences even worse, I would rather say to people like if you're totally unprepared to give any form of punishment, then don't do it at all. Right? Let the dog go rogue. Because then at least he he's happy being rogue. Right? Or just being a dog. Just just following the guy at the moment. Just doing whatever he feels like not knowing he's doing it. They're false setting dog. Yeah. So that's a better way of saying it. Right? So like take for example toilet training. Right? Like people who don't want to put the work in for the crate and management and that kind of stuff. It's like, well, if you're happy just let the dog shit anywhere, then he can just shit anywhere for the rest of his life. Right? Yep. And he doesn't know he's doing the wrong thing. It's just it's just a thing that he does and there's no consequence for it. The problem becomes when you're not prepared to do the management work and you intermittently punish the dog for doing things that you no longer want it to do. Because that's how you'll fuck up the dog. It's that intermittent, unclear, like essentially what, you know, in all the literature that tells us that punishment is a problem and has negative consequences and creates aggression and all those kinds of things. The caveat is always that it's non contingent use. You'll always find that. You will not find a single study where they say punishments not an issue and works and should go ahead where there was any miscommunication or lack of clarity around why that punishment was happening. Yep. In every instance, when they say punishment causes a shutdown dog, punishment causes aggression, punishment causes what's some of the other shit they say? You know, all of them, all the bullshit you hear, that's 100% true when it's non contingent punishment and it's not even really punishment then. It's just a misunderstanding. No, no control around it. Yeah. Control the outcome. That's right. At that point, it's just aversives delivered for no reason. And even if you have a very clear decision and intent and picture around an aversive, if you give the dog, if you're not prepared to do it a second time, then you're non contingent use because if the dog can't make the association to something. It's got to be scalable too. Yeah. So, I mean, let's go to the most obvious and tiny thing. You got a dog that jumps on the counter-counter-sus, right? And you just give him a little leash pop, like, hey, knock it off, right? So that's the level of punishment we're talking. And then one day, he does it and you're like, "I can't be bothered." Well, the first time you did it was great. That's positive punishment used it effectively, right? But then the second time you observe him doing it, and you go, "I don't care in this moment." Your first time of positive punishment just became non contingent use because now there's no consistent consequence for an action. And that's how you'll fuck up your dog. And that's what I see a lot of the big issues that we see in the home is when someone is saying, "Yeah, I have, I understand that. I get it. That's intuitive to me. Whether I'm trained in it or not, I understand it. Got it, right? It might be that I've read the books and I understand it, or it's intuitive to me and I just get it." Then that person is paired with someone who's non contingent use. And you can see you're like, "Dude, you're going to fuck him up." Like, you're going to cause all the issues that people say come of punishment. I'm going to become true because you're not using punishment. You're just randomly providing aversives, right? And the same goes, like, to an extent with positive reinforcement as well. Like, when you try to convince the dog of the right behaviors, when people, you know, sometimes in the learning phase still go to an intermittent schedule, not born on purpose, not with intention where you go that dogs got it, you just like stop reinforcing. And so, of course, the behavior goes away. And that's when people start saying, "He knows this way, isn't he doing it?" It's like, "No, he doesn't know it, right? Because you're at a non contingent use of positive reinforcement. You may as well have just been randomly thrown treats in there." I love that. At each, he knows this. Yeah. Yeah. I think the moment you have a high drive or a highly motivated dog, and you have that dog understanding, a marker that leads to the, like, the moment you have one behavior reliably taught, right? You lose the ability to say, "He knows this." Like, on the regular, I think there's instances where you can say, "There's competing motivators, there's other drives that's played, there's reasons the dog goes through." He knows this under a perfect conditions. Yeah. Because if the motivation is there, I know things under perfect conditions too. Yeah. And then on the other times, it's completely absent. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's like, "Hey, if he knew what he'd do it." Exactly. Yeah. Especially when you say people put in a heap of pressure on the dog, you're like, "Hey, man, do you know not the speed?" Of course. Do you do it? No, sir. Especially, don't at the moment. We've been through that. Oh, yes. Yes. Did I nearly ran a red light the other day? I was on my way home from something, and I was filming something for the IPO thing I'm doing. And I didn't know where I was when I was following GPS. And I was at a confusing intersection. I was like, "I was like, "I'm old confusing intersection." Yeah. And I was like, "Wait, am I turning here?" And I was looking at the GPS. And then I look up, and it's an orange light. And I was like, "Shit, how long's that been orange?" So I thought, "No, I'm not. I'm slamming on the brakes." And the red light camera went off because I was just into the intersection. But then the second flash, they'd take the two photos to make sure did you go through. Yeah. I was like, "I did not say. " Wow. "I'm glad that I didn't know how else." Or else this conversation wouldn't be happening. Well, it'll be happening from your life. Yeah, to be a squad section. Hey, I reckon we wrap it up. Yeah, we've talked it. Yeah. It's been around the block. Talk some stuff. All right. But I do have to have wanted mission before we do officially wind it up. What's that? Sorry, guys. We're the losers in the battle here. It's overwhelmingly the men that are causing the problems in the households that I've been doing. Really? Yeah. Overwhelming. I'd probably agree with that. Oh, no, I don't know that I could, in my experience, I don't know that I would agree with that. So I'm thinking of certain cases. Oh, don't get me wrong. I mean, there's things that I've seen that would have been between volleying between both sides. But generally, the high level of rouse all, it's the guys causing that issue. Yeah. Not all the issues. It's the high level of rouse and then leaving the wife to fix up the mess afterwards. That's generally a guy thing to do. Cool, babe. Yeah. Don't know. In my experience. All right. Hey, let's use this as an open topic now. It's over to you, fam. Yeah. So all the TCPs and the discussion group tell us about your experiences. If you're a trainer, budding or professional, tell us about your experience. If you've gone and done some in-home mods and seen those high level or out-of-the-situations, is it one or the other? Yeah. It's war of the sexes. We kind of didn't want to open a can of worms, but fuck it. I just thought I'll just throw all caution of the wind and just pull the pin out of the grenade and just throw it on the floor. Yeah. Yep. All right. That's it for another episode of the can I'm parodom. As always, if you like what you hear, please like, rate, share, subscribe. Do that through whatever subscription service you're downloading from. Yep. If you want to support the show, you can jump into Patreon. Puppa needs some new cameras. No. Three bucks a month gets your access in there. You could pay more if you like. That's totally fine. The other way you could support the show is T-spring. Yes. If you buy any cool merch from T-spring, don't be afraid to flaunt it. Post-it them photos of yourself in a tag-ass unit. Tag-ass unit. Yeah, I'd love to see you guys wearing it out on walks or when you're training or doing some stuff. People, some people do. Yeah. Yeah. So wonderful. I love it. Yeah. I'd like to put some more of that on the gram. So if you're on the gram and you've got some TCP merch, I often put it in the stories, but I'd love to include you in our ongoing. Yep. Section as well. So DM us the pics. Yeah, DM us the pics and tell us a bit about it. Yep. Just I nearly said DM like it nearly sounded like I want it almost sounded like I wanted people to send you dick pics on the DM the Dix. No, no, no, no, thank you. Stop it. Yep. Well, we're up to if you want to get in contact with us, best way to do that is jump into the Facebook discussion group. That's where you can sort of group source information. If you want to know the dimensions of the box, people make jokes about that, right? But we still get at least once a week. I got one. Did you see the email the other day, which said, can you tell me where I can find more information on the dimensions of the box? Yeah. And I kind of thought seriously, but it's because the show's constantly growing, right? Yeah. And people go back like they might we've still got new audiences here and getting there. So there's old jokes. Yeah. So there's old irritations are still coming back. Yep. So we're bringing sweaty back. The box dimensions don't matter. And if it's something you want to get in contact with us specifically about, you can choose an email. We are info. at thecanonparadim.com. That's it, goodbye.