Episode 18: On Churches

[MUSIC PLAYING] You're listening to Community Crafted Education, where we explore alternatives to conventional K-12 education and their potential impacts on society and culture. I'm Eric Wairn, director of the National Hybrid Schools Project. On this episode, we're joined by Adam Foster and Bethany Lee from Fellowship Church Home School Academy. We'll talk about hosting schools in churches. All right, we're here today with Adam Foster, who's an associate minister at Fellowship Church in Missouri and Bethany Lee, who's the director of the Fellowship Church Home School Academy there. Thank you all so much for being with us today. No, thank you for inviting us. Yeah, so I wanted to talk today about something in particular that affects a lot of schools. I want to talk today about something in particular that affects a lot of schools. And that is the fact that so many of these hybrid and micro schools are either started by churches or they're independent, but they're physically housed in churches. We surveyed schools a couple of years ago, and we found something like two-thirds of our respondents were either renting space from a church or getting space donated from a church. So I thought it'd be worthwhile to explore what's going on in the church space a little bit with these schools. So I know your school has kind of an interesting origin story. So Adam, maybe can you talk a little bit about that? And then we'll hear from Bethany about how the school is going now. Absolutely, yeah. Our school, we began in 2020, but our story really starts in 2019. And so previous to that, we had two groups, co-op groups, that used our building because we allow, we believe in the schooling. And so we allow them to use free of charge. One was dissolving and not coming back. And another one decided to move 40 minutes across town to a different area of the metro. And so we immediately began getting phone calls from different parents and different educators just asking, what are we going to do to help these families? And so we prayed about it. We as a church leadership, and well, we decided that in early February of 2020, we decided this was not what we were going to do. It was not our plan. And then I went on a family vacation and was on a cruise. And then when I came back, I turned on Facebook and saw a post that said, enroll in our new homeschool academy. So congratulations. And can only do that. So lots changed in that week. And so really, we just said, hey, you know what? We're going to pray for 50 kids. We have this group of individuals right here in our community that are looking. We weren't quite ready, but we decided to do that. And so we promoted enroll in our academy, and then the lovely COVID hit the country and the world. And so that was about one week after we promoted that we were going to start the school. So we got a little nervous. But we were shocked with what the enrollment ended up being. So to our surprise, it blew up. And our area was looking for alternative education. And so our first year, we were praying for 50. We started with 112 students with 25 on the wait list. And so 85% of those were coming from the public school system. And 82 had never even homeschooled before in their life. And 70% even had both parents working going to work. And so we had a unique plan in place. And so what we were doing, it was treated not like a co-op. But we went and hired professional educators to be the classroom teachers. Parents dropped off on a regular school day, dropped off on Monday. And Wednesday was a two day a week school. All day long, we included PE art and music into our school, which allowed some extra enrichment pieces there. And so it went so well. We were kind of told as a church and as a school that we were like the Chick-fil-A of schools, which I will take that. That's praise, right? Yes, that is something I will take, especially from all the Georgia guys down there, I'm sure they-- But yeah, so I think the key to that, though, was we were a ministry of our church. It wasn't a separate school. It wasn't a separate thing, it was a ministry of the church. It's been really awesome. We just opened enrollment for next year. And we continued to grow. In that second year going back, we went 112 students first year. Our second year, we thought, are they going to re-enroll? We're not really sure. And they did. And actually, we opened our second year with 220 students our second year. And then we just, as I said, just opened re-enrollment for our current families. And I believe we're at 137 or even more than that already coming back for next year before we've even made it for the public. Yeah. Well, great. So Bethany, how-- you're in charge of this operation. How are you going now? I am. Yeah. No, it's going really well. It's crazy to see year-to-year the growth. And every year is a little bit different. So our numbers are a little bit different. But man, we have some amazing families that just keep coming back that we get to partner with. And it's a true joy. So-- Yeah. So this is an interesting setup that you guys have. A lot of these schools, if they're non-profit, they have to deal with board versus management dynamics. If they're for-profit, they're maybe set up a little bit different. But when a school's a ministry of a church, who kind of makes the hard decisions? And what does that process look like? Yeah, I can talk a little bit to that. And so those hard decisions, those are twofold. Number one, if it's an everyday teaching side of things, teachers, hiring teachers, discipline of children, stuff like that, that does fall to Bethany. She kind of gets to make those hard decisions. But my role as the associate minister that kind of gets to help with that ministry is I'm here as a sounding board for her to allow her to have a group of individuals that we can tag team that together. Outside of that, other hard decisions that maybe like policy changes that we want to make or something like that, we do have just an overall church council is what we call it. But it's kind of a board for our church. And so because it's a ministry of church, just like the school is part of our church, just as much as children's ministry or youth ministry, that board oversees everything. And so we go for policy changes to them, we suggest things and they make those tough decisions. It's kind of how that goes. Have you had moments where the needs of the church and the school have kind of diverged and had to have some difficult choices made? To be honest, we haven't had too many of those in our history. I think because of our mission of vision is all aligned and because it's a part of ministry. There's always the give and take, you know, and I know we'll probably get into sharing space and some of those things that can kind of sometimes cause that tension and I know Bethany can share on that. But really, we have been blessed in our six years of doing this to be able to really, we may have a little hiccup here there, but it's nothing that's really gotten us off track or that we're not all aligned. Yeah. Do you see, so I don't know if all the listeners will be super aware of kind of the differences between like covenantal schools and evangelical schools. So maybe talk a little bit about that, say where you fall, and then do you see families joining who aren't part of the church? And if so, what brings them to you? So we have two different models, obviously, that are out there and you're gonna see a wide variety in every community. And so it is something that we are evangelical. So as far as families that come in, no matter their beliefs, we're super transparent. Like this is where we stand. You know, we have a wide variety of families from all over the metro. And so when we have those people come in and we have those people to, or we have, you know, questions that they reach out to us, we like to obviously share those mission statements. And because our goal really ultimately is still, you know, evangelizing to our community. And so even with a wide variety of beliefs and backgrounds and churches that our families are connected in, you know, we still have our goal of evangelizing. And so making that mission statement clear and what we believe as a church is really part of what we do because we don't hide what we believe. We don't hide how we stand on things. And so that's really something that, when I used to give tours, like we would go over, you know, how we, how we function as a school, show them classrooms, things like that. But it was really challenged in the last year to start building that in more and more. And so that's what I've started doing whenever we have families interested. No matter where they're coming from, this is who we are. Because that's really when you get to the core of it, that's what we're gonna fall back on. Yeah, so by saying you're in evangelical school, that means you're looking for people who are maybe not a hundred percent on board to start with, right? A covenantal school, which is like you need to sign off on everything or we're gonna look elsewhere, right? Yes, correct. So given that you're kind of looking for people to draw them in, has anything surprised you about who has shown up other than just the fact that they showed up in the first place, right? You just spoke to them politically or culturally or anything like that? I don't know. Like we've had a lot of the families that come to us, at least up to this point. It's been by word of mouth or by story. We've gotten lots of neighbors. We have people all over the metro that we have people that drive 45 minutes. And I'm like, it's because of previous connections or things that the word is spreading. And so not a whole lot of surprises to be honest up to this point. But I mean, you know, every day's a new adventure. So. Yeah, no, that's interesting. So Adam, are you gonna say something? Well, I was gonna say, you know, nothing is surprised us. Whether it's being an evangelical model, we've had some that may not agree spiritually with what we're teaching. But we are unapologetically Christian and we Bethany Bethany does a great job at even the tour that she gives them of really asking them and sharing that vision, that mission and even talking to them about where they're plugged in as a family. And so they they come knowing what they're getting. They don't have to sign a covenant, but they know what they're getting. And I think that's been one of the reasons we've not had a lot of surprises in that area because they know they know it's either a fit for their family or not. Right, right. Well, and it's nice because when you start having those conversations pretty early, it helps us to get to know our families and where they're at so that in our partnership, we can offer, you know, resources and a variety of ways, you know, if they're looking for a church, we've had people looking for a church. So, you know, what offer what things can we offer them to be able to meet their family needs to it's all about that parent partnership and in a variety of ways. And remind me what grades you got your school is at right now. So we have K4. So our four year olds all the way up three grade and yeah, okay, and we did when we first started, we tried to go even into some of the upper grades high school and all that. And we realized in our church setting, we are not a school building, we are a church setting, using classrooms that are not set up for labs and set up for things like that. And so we made the hard decision a few years in to just stop a eighth grade. Yeah, so that this is the kind of thing I was going to ask you to about decisions that you made. So that was one big one. Can you think of another kind of maybe early minor decision that you made that turned out to matter a lot, not having a high school is a big one. Yeah, I think probably one of the bigger decisions early on we were setting up the school was really that shared space. And so how, you know, even in the elementary school, okay, I need popsicle sticks for this, this thing in my classroom, but kid ministry needs popsicle sticks so that shared space was a huge decision because we had to decide is it going to be this budget and that budget, how the budget is going to be shared houses space going to be shared. So we made some decisions there that we can elaborate on later if we want to, but that because we decided to share everything that has made an impact, I think, and not making it territorial. This is school, this is church, nothing that's been a key part of what I would be curious to hear more about that about how how that's not made it territorial right because you could hog the pops, the popsicle sticks. Yeah, that then you want to talk a little bit about how you do shared space. Yeah, yeah, so, you know, there are so many different working ministries within our space. And so, you know, our maintenance team there are rock stars because they are having to flip from Sunday to Monday to Wednesday back to Sunday and even probably some days in between because of different events. And so one thing that we do is we have kind of set some parameters around how we set up our classrooms. So one of those things is that, you know, when you walk into a classroom initially when you're looking from the hallway, you want to be able to see, you know, a wana or, you know, Bible study space, Sunday school space. But when you walk in and turn around that wall that is connected to that door is school, it is all school. So they have free reign on that wall to decorate as if they are in school. So even when the students come in and the tables are set up different, you know, from from Sunday to Monday, they feel like they have a warm school setting as we share that space. And so, you know, wanting to keep that warm school environment, but also sharing that space is, is an important part of what we do. And like he said, you know, sharing the popsicles and sharing the different resources, I think it's a it's a big part of what we do. I'm really thankful for being able to share those resources, whether it be, you know, PE equipment or, you know, different things like it really does make a difference in how we do things here because again, it takes these ministries and it's not pinning us up against each other, but working together to meet, you know, the needs of both ministries. So that's been, I think a really important thing. Yeah, yeah, I would, I would add like a little bit like budget wise, you know, we need something. They're very honest is to, okay, hey, we're going to split this 50 50 or we don't really use that, but here's where we're at. I think doing that is is a key factor of just being open and honest and going, hey, we're, we're only kid ministries not going to use this or we're not going to, we don't need a white board in this Sunday school classroom. So, okay, that's going to fall on the the academies budget or whatever. So, PE equipment for instance, like we had an ask ball goals outside, well, we split the costs with the youth ministry and that because the youth ministry can use that on Sunday on Wednesday nights and stuff like that. Yeah, no, that all makes sense. So I want to zoom out for a minute next, right? And talk not just about your school, but kind of what this whole phenomenon of churches, either running or just hosting schools like this tells us about how. These kinds of local institutions are kind of stepping back into education, right? So one thing that comes up a lot is this idea that critics worry that these more kind of high identity schools, whether they're religious or not, are going to kind of accelerate like social sorting. Right? So, what have you seen? I have opinions on that, but I'm going to ask you, would either that either challenges that or confirms that concern that we're just kind of going to go off into our corners and ignore other people? I, I don't know. I mean, I feel like that's kind of some of this has kind of changed over time. I feel like and I don't know if it's just our area or if it's nationwide, but I feel like, you know, people that are involved in a variety of schools, you know, religious schools, Christian schools, homeschool academies, public schools, I mean, you have families involved. And honestly, there are even some families that have, you know, one kid in this school and one kid in that school to meet the needs of different families and their educational needs. And so, I don't know. I don't. I feel like you, when you get involved, it's a choice because you have so many families that, you know, want to be involved. You have families that are getting involved in sports and events throughout the community. And I think when you choose to put yourself out there as a family, you don't see that as often. You don't see that stigma that I think was there at one time. I, and again, I don't know if it's just our, you know, our surrounding area, but I feel like a lot of our families that, you know, whether they are, you know, set in one school or a variety of schools or changed year to year. And when a family chooses to be involved in the community or events and things like that, I don't know. I think it's a choice. And I think that that choice helps them to really be involved in building those relationships. And I would add to that is I think sometimes that social sorting. I think we are blessed in our area that we don't see that as much lately. I think it was a stigma a little bit in the past that we see as she, as she elaborated. I think within our Kansas City metro area, especially our area of the town, there's a lot of options, a lot of groups and co-op groups and like our academic program enrichment programs. And so I think the parents, they're the primary educator of that of their children. and sometimes they get in programs and it's a fit. And sometimes it's not a fit. And I think these parents, we can't be upset if somebody comes into our school, they try it out and then a quarter in, they say, hey, this isn't working for me and my child. You know, what what we do, we we partner with that parent for the rest of that year, we sit there, hey, we want you to do what you want to do with your kid. Yeah, I said I wasn't going to talk directly about your school, but I'm going to ask a question about it again, which is because it's typical of a lot of these schools is that an effect that it can have on just who comes to your schools, the fact that your tuition is a lot lower than it would be at, you know, maybe a competing five day private school. So I mean, do you think that has an effect, I already heard that that's had an effect on, you know, we couldn't, there's no way we could have gone to this five day school, but we can come to you. I, you know, I think we hold our standards fairly high within the classroom and what we do. I think between, yeah, keeping a lower tuition and being able to meet those family needs and holding in that high standard to within the classroom, I think that's a pretty dynamic duo for families, you know, and always being able to evaluate how can we meet the needs of families better or different, you know, every year is a new year to get to dig into that. So I think, yeah, I think between those things, and we have a, we have some parents even say sometimes I get the best of the five day a week school for a quarter of the price or half the price because I get to be with my kid, but yet they get the education and everything else. So so you do see that. Okay, so backing off of your school again, right, what are some lessons that you think secular groups like libraries or nonprofits or crossfit gems or co working spaces or whatever could learn from how churches like yours kind of either either incubate or run or host these kinds of schools. Yeah, I think probably just opening the doors to them and letting them have boundaries and settings for whatever group is meeting is key, you know, I think it's got a line with them for the most part as an organization. But even if it's, you know, let's say it's a religious school group that wants to meet, but they want to rent a public library space, you know, to allow them to do it in a safe environment that is maybe even on a short term basis that you're just saying hey, we'll host it for the first semester or we'll do this on a trial basis. But I think setting boundaries, I know going back to before we started our school and we hosted these co up groups and everything else, we had rules and boundaries, but we wanted to let them use the building, how they wanted to do it, you know, one of the hard things in any church building and any building is storage space. So to have a school or a group want to come in, it's how are we going to make all the teachers carry every single thing out of their classroom every single time and then to bring it back in can be taxing on these groups so allowing them to go, hey, you can use this or you designate some space for them to use, but I think outside groups can they can learn from just hey. Number one, you're going to bring people into your business or your local place and allow others to be in there and it gets exposed to your your thing and it goes really far with that group of individuals who then where to mouth talk positive about your business or location. Yeah, so there are a lot of churches around the country have started these these things or are taking rent from other people who want to start them, but there are a lot of churches and a lot of them don't have hybrid or micro schools in them. What would you say to a church leadership group that is really hesitant to host one of these things right I've heard of groups who say you know we, you know, we brought this idea to our pastor and he's a little bit leery of it. What would you how would you talk to those kind of people. I would tell them do it. I mean, I I understand there's a little bit of a risk you may get associated with what they're teaching what they're doing, which is once again back to our story. When that school decided to leave they called the church who was hosting them going what are you going to do about it, but it just it partnered with the community and it told them that the church is for the community and for this. And so I my advice would be do it, but once again set those boundaries what what works for your building for instance we had an event on a Thursday one the first Thursday of the month we have a mobs group kind of thing that meets well that we can't have a co up group in the building if we're going to do that so Thursdays are off the table. And so setting up some boundaries of going okay what's going to work for your ministry and this for you to partner. Our church's belief is we're not building a church to sit empty and so let's use this building that the Lord's given us and so let groups come in and use it that align with us. We've seen a lot of flourishing too with families like we have a lot of families that are not just connected in the school are started as just a connection with the school that are now attending. You know church functions kids ministries different things like so we're seeing other ministries thrive because of the working relationship they already have with the school which is really cool to see you know when I'm bringing my own family and I'm seeing students go oh my goodness. Hey Mrs. Lee you know and things like that and so it's it's just really cool to see other ministries thriving because of that. Yeah I think that could be a benefit for churches and Bethany can really attest to really all aspects of what we're talking about because one of the co up groups that met here before we started our own school she was a teacher at. She was in our building and then we started our our own school she came on as a teacher for the first couple years as we had a director and then when our director gave us she had given us a few years because she said once her first grandbaby was here she was off and so. Grandbaby came and it was it was an easy decision for us but Bethany moved into that director role so she's been able to see as a teacher what it looks like for somebody to open it up and then what all sides of the school is yeah so Bethany I do want to ask about that because we've talked a lot about buildings but not as much about people and these these schools actually can have really high. Really high numbers of employees if they're coming in and just teaching a class here and there like more than you would think at at a school of a comparable size right so who are your teeth like so you are a person who was not involved with the school who became became the director right where what people do you have that you're attracting his teachers. So our teachers we have a lot of teachers that have that class well first of all they all have classroom experience of all kinds but most of our teachers actually have degrees in education of some kind and so a lot of them have that background already but a lot of them are just moms. That have stepped away from teaching because they were you know building their family and now we're able to use our degree again and now we can still be mom because it's two days a week and so we're able to to work with them to be able to still bring their kids still be mom still be educator so they still have that identity of what they've really trained for and that's kind of how I honestly got into this whole world too is I was a mom but I felt like I kind of lost who I was and I was. I was a little lost who I was and wanted to be back in education and so you know I get jumped into this world and it's it's been it's been a great journey and it adventure since then so yeah. Yeah this is a really common story maybe not becoming the director of the school but a teacher like like mom the teacher to mom to teacher path is a really is a really common one around the country. So just I have a couple more questions one of them is for a group that wanted to start a school like this at your church just what what basic advice would you give them as they're thinking about it. I think figuring out your leadership structure and figuring out how you're going to function as a school is key I know I'll plug the Herzog foundation school logs I mean they they really go through the steps to help you figure that out and what does that look like and so getting involved with organizations that are going to help you so that you don't feel isolated and on. On an island thinking you're the only one doing this because there is a big movement across the country that is and that are really doing this and so finding that community to help you with this would be my biggest advice is you're not in it alone find others that are doing it and doing it well and talk to them. to them. and primary sources. - Great, all right, so last question then, and maybe for both of you guys, what's the most interesting thing that you're working on at your school right now that people who are involved with these schools around the country would wanna hear about? - Ooh, so it's, hmm, I know I thought about this, thought about this, and you know, one thing that we've had since the beginning is we've had a handful of families really ask, like, are we ever gonna do anything enrichment-wise? You know, I know we like academics, but again, every family needs different things. We've done the academics, but we prefer to do that at home, what enrichment idea or what extra things can we dip our toes in and really kind of dig in to learn in new ways. And so something that we've been chewing on, and I know it's been discussed since the beginning is there going to be an enrichment program? And so this year, and they actually function today, but we've been able to start an enrichment program, and when I say we, we have a director for that who's not in today 'cause today is their day to meet, but once a week they meet as an enrichment program, and really allow those students to dig into unit studies and exploratory classes and get their hands on projects and learning new skills of a variety of things, you know, between sewing and cooking and all the different things. So we have a handful of our families that have jumped into that world of enrichment, but then also might do both programs or one or the other. And so it's been really cool to see our church really be able to launch that. And so the director for that is doing a fantastic job who has a very creative brain for that. And so that's been something that's been really exciting is getting to partner with her in a new way, as she was a teacher for the school, for a couple of years. And so we've been able to launch her into a new role as well. So partnering in a completely different way to still come under the umbrella of our church and get on the same page, which is cool. - Yeah, find a new way to be, to like creatively answer what the parents are looking for. - Yeah, yeah. - And what I love about that that's interesting is we've started that program last year is, is it is two separate programs, but it is. It's under the umbrella of our homeschool ministries. And it's the standards are the same. You know, and so I think we have a, with the Lord's blessing, we have a good reputation in our area of having high quality programs. And so when we started this program, people are like, okay, I know the quality that you're gonna get. And so being able to really function as one team. And so Bethany and the director of that program myself, we have a lot of communication. We have monthly meetings where we sit there and align everything together so that it all is synced together. - Great. All right, Adam Foster and Bethany Lee from Fellowship Church, homeschool academy. Thank you so much for being with us today. - Hey, thank you, Eric. Thank you so much for having us on. - Thank you, Joel. Thank you for listening to Community Crafted Education, a podcast hosted by the National Hybrid Schools Project and Kenna Saw State University's Michael J. Cole's College of Business. If you have any questions about the topics we discussed on today's show or wanna learn more about what we do, please look up the National Hybrid Schools Project or reach out to us directly at coalscollege.com/hybrid. (upbeat music)