Episode 18 - Motivation in the Workplace with Dr. Robert Levine

[Music] Michelle Nasser Show, Leadership Information and Inspiration. [Music] Welcome to Michelle Nasser Show. I'm your home. I'm Michelle Nasser. It's great to be back. We took a long break during COVID. So I'm excited and eager to get back to sharing leadership insights that will help you to become more successful. On this episode, we will be talking about motivation in the workplace. With our special guest, Dr. Robert Levine, clinical and forensic psychologist. Hi, Dr. Rob. Thank you for joining us again. Hey, Michelle. Great to be back. I've missed our chance. Yes. Yes, me too. I'm glad that we're able to come back together and reconnect and get all of your great insights. So this episode, I want to explore the topic, motivation in the workplace. And I have so many questions, Dr. Rob. So let's just get started, okay? Sounds great. So I've often wondered why some people are motivated to become a CEO, for an example. And others are just content with staying in one role. So maybe to get started off, can you tell us in general, what is motivation? What is motivation? That's a great question. So motivation, at a very general sense, it's the general desire or willingness of someone to do something. So there's a few different schools of thought on this, but some would say there's three different types of motivation. One is extrinsic, is doing an activity to attain or avoid a separate outcome. So chances are many of the things you do each and every day are extrinsically motivated. Most people get up and go to work because what and maybe it's so a job that they're well, don't exactly love, but you know what? Paycheck is next Friday. So they're going because they're extrinsically motivated. They want to, they want, they want to earn an income. So they can, they can support themselves, their families, you know, do something crazy, like have dinner, you know, go on a trip once in a while. So, um, so going to the job is not really something, ooh, I'm just so passionate about, you know, my job building widgets. But I'm doing this because there's some, there's some extra and also, you know, that's something you obtain, but something you made avoid, you know, when you're raising children, you know, they, I'm maybe, maybe your, your child was like perfect and everything like that. But my, my, not mine are still. Clothes, yeah, clothes, yeah. So, so sometimes your kids may do things because they. They punishment or you do things to avoid punishment, okay? So, um, so those are extrinsic. Then it's intrinsic. That's something that you feel and you're gut. Okay. So, you know, you're asking about. Yeah, you're, you're talking about some people are CEOs, so and some people, you know, are okay, not be, you know, you know, climbing to such a ladder. Well, you know, they'll oftentimes people who are. Want to climb the ladder. There, there's something intrinsically motivating to them. Or, or sometimes, uh, something intrinsically motivating is, let's say there's some kind of a charity or something like that that they're very passionate about. And you could, you don't have to pay them a dime, but they will, they, they will get up, uh, stay up late and get up early to work on this because there's something. There's some greater meaning behind it for them. So, will that be kind of linked to like a passion you mean? Sure, sure, sure. Okay. Kind of a passion in which, you know, there's not inherently going to be, you know, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow or something, you know, out there. But this comes more from inside. Okay. Or maybe it's a of a higher calling, so to speak. Okay. All right. And then another kind of motivation that sometimes people reference is more family motivation. So, you know, desire to provide for your loved ones. So, I mean, you could make the case that's somewhat extrinsically somewhat intrinsic. It's kind of a hybrid. You know, so sometimes it's, you know, hey, I don't, you know, like, uh, hey, I want my, my children to do well. You know, so, you know, you know, maybe you're not excited about, you know, going to, you know, you're, your son or daughter's a recital or something like that. Nothing inherently exciting to you. I mean, let's face it now, if you're going to your kids, you know, your seven year olds piano recital. Listen, if you wanted to hear a better piano, I'm sure you can buy it. You know, just, just listen to Billy Joel and you got that taken care of. Right. Right. But you're, you're, you know, your family motivated because you know, this is the, the, you think this is betterment of your child or something like that. So, you know, you're, you're motivated to provide for your, for your family. So, that's kind of a hybrid extrinsic and intrinsic. So, those are the, I'm kind of the global sense, you know, those are three kind of big ones out there. I see. And so, okay, so how can we kind of generalize that now and put it into sort of career and into the workplace. So, just so that I'm kind of clear to our listeners as well. So, the first one that you mentioned, that one's really just something that maybe you, you have to do so that you can achieve a certain goal that's external. And then the one that's internal sort of something driving you a passion, right. So, how do I start to make it to at the job, right. So, are somebody, someone, for example, who wants to become a CEO and they want to climb that ladder. Is it because they want to achieve a financial goal or is it because they are passionate about reaching a certain type of internal goal that they set for themselves or other people who are saying, you know what I like to come in and do my nine to five. I know what that's expected of me and I'm happy with that. How do we, what is that? So, I'm going to give you a very scientific answer. It depends. Right. So, so if you are, so there are some people who are extrinsically motivated and they want to, that's to, you know, they want to get to the top of the mountain, you know, you know, in the corporate world. you know they want, you know, they want the, they want the, the, they want to be on the top, they want the glory, they want the money, they want the, they want the, this, they want that, they want the private jet, they want the company car. Um, and so, so you know those kind, those kind of, you know, those kind of things, I mean, that's fine. I mean that, that is one, that is those type of people may be extrinsically motivated and they can, and so really they're, their passion, you could argue with themselves. Um, and their passion is to be in charge and you know, presumed, at least hopefully they're working on something that, you know, they, they, their values align with the company values. Um, so, but some of those people may be very intrinsically motivated as well, um, or family motivated, you know, they want to, they want to change their family tree. So basically saying, you know, hey, I came from, uh, you know, middle class, lower class, whatever, and I want to, you know, grit my way out and I want to get to the top and I want a great life for, for me and my family. Um, you know, other people, they might be more intrinsically motivated, you know, maybe that, you know, this, the company they started from the bottom and the intrinsic motivation could be they find there's a passion about that particular company that they're with. It could be passionate, you know, or they gravitate to certain types of companies that, you know, maybe, I don't know, maybe it's a company that makes, I don't know, shoes or clothes or, or whatever. So it's just one of those things that, hey, you know, as long as they're working at, at a company, doing something that they don't, that, uh, you know, they don't inherently considered a moral. Um, you know, so, so it's just like, hey, you know, putting, putting, you know, maybe their passion is getting good product into the marketplace. So, those people and it does require a high level of motivation, because because most people, I mean, most people don't, they don't graduate college and then all of a sudden, oh, they're the CEO of Apple or something like that. That just doesn't typically happen. Now maybe if you're an entrepreneur, yes, then you can roll out a bet and you're by definition the CEO. So, yeah. And so then it's a matter of like building the company out. But then, so those people, but again, it's a lot of work to start out as a entry level person at some kind of a company and then whether you work to promote at that company or jump around to a half a dozen different companies, that's not easy. And it takes a lot of stamina to do that. And some people are just like, listen, you know, they see, they see a light at the end of the tunnel. They see it, okay? And they're like, oh, I wanna hit that light of the end of the tunnel and they're living for the light at the end of the tunnel, okay? Well, you know, that there's other people that they're going through that tunnel and they see the light at the end of the tunnel. And you know what they see? They see an oncoming train, okay? - Right. - Okay. And because it's just like, it's like, it's hard. And sometimes you're stepping on someone else's toes and sometimes you're, you're, you're, you know, you have to, you have to go to the company meet and greets. You have to do the thing. - So, I guess it's sort of matter of like you're saying, just sorry to me to just wanted to, there's something a point that you made, I really just wanna go back to when you, you know, saying, well, this is something that's really hard to do. So is that part of maybe one of the factors of why someone may want to just be more comfortable or content with maybe just, you know, having a steady job and enjoying what they're doing, but maybe not wanting to explore outside of that becomes with that comes more responsibilities. And maybe that might take away time from their family and friends as well. - I mean, I think that's part of it. I mean, it's part of it. I mean, it's multifaceted. So on some level, yeah, it's gonna take away time from friends and family. And you're gonna have to miss baseball games and things like that. And when you come home, you're gonna have to sweat about what happens at work. And then again, you know, as I said, it's not just the job, it's hard, but you know, applying for promotions and getting turned down and looking and potentially, if you don't see a path upward at your company, you gotta jump to another company. You might have to move. You might have to, you know, get out of, you know, move out of your town that you grew up in. You might have to be mobile. You might have to lose, you know, if you are originally from Charlotte, North Carolina and everything and there's a job in Chicago that you think would be great, but guess what? That means you can't come home for things, giving like you used to. - Right, right. - So it's a change of lifestyle as well, right? - A change of lifestyle and some people are not willing to do all of that. And you know what, that's, there's no shame in that. - Right. - And sometimes, you know, if you live, and you know, if you live near Toronto, and I live near Washington, DC, there's a lot of opportunities where we live. But if you live in some other parts of North America, you know, there may be only one decent company in your town and if, and you're not willing to move. And so, yeah, you may be upset about the management and after work, you and the boys go to the bar and you gripe about the boss and the CEO. And if they would just simply listen to you, everything would be so much better. But you're just not in any kind of a position to fight your way and even if you were, you know, it's a headache. It's a lot, it's a lot going on for sure. There's a lot involved. And I guess the thing is too that, you know, motivation, I think, is tied to obviously to your goals. So it depends on what your goal is. And like you said, you need a lot of motivation to want to really, I guess, have bigger goals in terms of financial goals, perhaps, or roles within an organization. But I think it really comes down to sort of, what is your goal? If your goal is to, you know, just like you said, to, you know, pay your bills and just have an ordinary, comfortable, happy life, I mean, that's great. That's living. That's what you want to do. Then that's what you're motivated to do and you will do and be in the role that will help you achieve that goal, right? So I think it's really a matter of what is your goal. And like you said, those bigger goals are harder to achieve, right? They certainly are, but here's the thing. There's no free lunch. And so, and so here's the thing. If you may say, hey, I wanna, you know, I'm working at a company and I'm happy here, I'm comfortable here and, you know, I'm content, you know, pushing paper or building widgets and I'm fine with that. And you know what? That's great. But you know what? Sometimes things happen at these companies or organizations. And then if you've spent the last 25 years pushing paper and building widgets and that's all you know how to do. And then there's a merger. There's some negative thing that happens with your company. You know, you may not, you now may not have the skills to go to another place, okay? But that guy who was scratching and clawing and fighting his way to better positions, you know, if they're, you know, hey, he might be the one making the decision that you may lose your job or things may be more, you know, difficult for you. Another thing is if something happens, the guy who's moved up and done a bunch of different things, you know, there might be a company down the road or a company halfway across the country that's just like, oh yeah, we'll pay, we'll pay. But the person who's done the same thing, there's just like I can get another, I can put an advertisement on indeed and I can find someone just like you, just down the road, you know, you're disposable. Yeah, that's so hard. Yeah. It's a reality, it's a reality, it's all right. But I guess my question to you, another question now that you're talking about all these things, just sort of popped into my mind is, do you think it's ever too late, this is sort of the age old question here, right? Do you think it's ever too late to change? Like you can change your goals. What if one day you wake up and you say, you know what? I don't wanna be a CEO anymore. I don't wanna climb there. I just wanna stay where I am. Or on the flip side, can you say, you know what? I wanna start growing and developing new skills and seeing how far I can go ahead. Can you do that at any stage, or would you recommend that, or is that something that that people do often? Or what are your thoughts? I mean it's, you know, it's, you can do it, you can definitely do it. I mean, it's, I mean, I don't wanna be, you know, I don't wanna be too happy, happy, but yeah, you can do it. (laughs) Okay. But here's the thing, the sooner you do it, the better. And the easier it is to do. I said, you know, you know, you bring it up, you kind of reminds me of a story from a number, about 10, 12 years ago, I was interviewing somebody. And she worked for a federal agency as an HR person for about, and had the same job for about 30 years as an HR person at this particular federal agency. And I remember I asked her, and she was applying to the federal, to a different federal agency, the one I was doing some work at, and she asked, and I asked her, why are you leaving your job to come to this agency, even though she's gonna be doing the same job. And her response was, and this was in about 2009. Her response to me was, Barack Obama had just been elected president, and she said, Barack Obama said it was time to make a change. So that's what I did. I took another job. - Oh wow. - And so now it's, it was, It was essentially the same job, but just at a different age and size. Right. Right. But the point was she decided that she's going to go do something. So there are people at the end of their career who basically decide that, yeah, they are going to do something different. Now, sometimes, now this will go more into, you know, if you, you know, if we ever have a show on the financial management or something like that, but, you know, some people, what they may do is, you know, they've earned all their money. They've earned everything that they're okay about earning, but they want to do something different. And so they may go and take, you know, an entry level or lower level position doing something else because it just brings them more meaning. Right. Or they, or they, or they try something new, but, you know, sometimes with those types of things, sometimes you have to have your financial house in order in order to kind of make that leap. Hey, I was just making 200. Right. I'm going to make $50,000 a year. Hey, listen. Right. So I mean, but, you know, but hey, if you, if you manage yourself, well, you, you can make those choices. So I guess that's, that's a great point there, Rob, you know, at the end of the day, it comes down to choices and, and that's one thing that I really want our listeners to, to here is that, you know, they do have these choices and nothing is quote unquote, set in stone. And like you said, if at the end of your career, you decide that you want to make a change, then, you know, you go and do it, right? You can go do it. And here's the thing. But we're going to, but let's be very clear. You can go do it. But just know it may not be easy. You may have to essentially really adjust course in your life. And it all depends on whatever you do. You have to be willing to know you are making that sacrifice. You know, earlier we were talking about the CEO versus nine to five guy, you know, CEO, you know, yes, is he highly compensate? Yeah, well, you know, especially if it's a big company. Yeah, he's highly compensate. Did he have to do things? You know, did he maybe have to sacrifice certain, you know, interpersonal and family relationships? And probably, you know, that person who's working nine to five, are they sacrificing the fact that, hey, they're not calling the shots. They're not getting the company car and, you know, and they and they don't have the big retirement plan. Yeah. But, you know, what, you know, they get to, you know, they get to have Thanksgiving dinner at Aunt Betty's house, you know, every year like they have for the last 30 years. So, you know, what? It's a trade. Yeah, it's about trade off. And it's about, again, going back to what motivates you? What are your goals? Why are you doing these things? And again, these things can change, right? And life is in constant change. So yeah, so this is, this has been a really great episode. Is there just before we wrap it up, is there any last thing that you want to share about motivation in the workplace? Yeah, actually, one last thing I kind of like to say is, you know, kind of along the lines of what I said before is really, you know, people, you ask, you know, which is better to do, which is better, you know, you have to climb the ladder or just be content. Right. Neither one. Neither one is better. Neither one is better is as long as the one that's better is the one in which you will sleep better at night. Oh, I like that. That's a good answer. So if you, if whichever one you choose, that helps you sleep at night, then that's the right answer for you. You know, and then, and then there's other one other thing that I kind of want to weigh in a little bit. You know, there's the, there's the notion of, you know, hey, should I just continue to do one thing, my career, or should I, or should I kind of spread my wings and do a bunch of different things? Um, I mean, it certainly depends on your motivation. I mean, if you're comfortable doing that one thing because you don't want to get outside your comfort zone, yeah, that's true. Another thing to counter factor in is, you know, if you are, you know, a top neurosurgeon, you know, and you really like doing neurosurgery, you will probably be, you know, you know, if you're just simply talking, you know, from the notion of compensation, hey, if you can send, continue to do neurosurgery, you're going to be very well compensated. Right. And, and, and, you know, and, and essentially, there's no, and now again, we're factoring in things like burnout and all that other stuff. But if you're happy doing neurosurgery and then you publish about neurosurgery, you will be a very well compensated person if all you do is think day in and day out about neurosurgery. Okay. But most people, you know, are, you know, now, you know, entrepreneurial things are a little different. But, but for, for most people, you know, if you are working at Amazon or something like that, you know, it probably isn't going to suit you very well to, you know, be one position. It, particularly if you want better levels of compensation, it's probably going to suit you better to jump around and get new experiences and, and they'll make yourself more marketable within the company as well as outside of the company. Right. Right. That's a good point. There's so much more we can talk about this. I just thought about maybe things that people back like fear and all these things, but maybe we can get into that as a part two kind of for sure. Oh, a little tease, a little tease. Yes. A little tease there. So, but for now, thank you so much, Dr. Robb. It's always so much fun. I'm spending time with you and getting your, your great insights. Thanks for sharing our expertise, Robb. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I learned so much and let's do this again soon sometime. And thank you for joining us on Michal Nasser's show. If you're looking for executive coaching experts, visit MichalNasser.com. This is MichalNasser, wishing you great success. MichalNasser's show, leadership, information and inspiration.