Episode 167: The Stalker Pt. 4

[Music] Welcome to the world. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. In part three, we essentially heard the end of Claire's story, or at least, that's where she hoped. But even though the stalker had left her alone completely after sending that one final text, the moment she got rid of the supposedly cursed objects, the fear that he might return was constantly looming over her. In a way, she was still being haunted by the entire experience and the lack of closure. Additionally, all of the unknowns were lingering. And quite frankly, I had so many questions myself and was personally very eager to dive in and hopefully find some answers. My big questions were who was this guy? Why did he believe these things? Was he part of some sort of group or cult related to twin flames or the many other things he spoke about? Who was this so-called esoteric detective and the task force? Could they also be part of this hypothetical group? Did they have a falling out? Why was he on the hunt for this guy? Was there really a court case? Did a psychiatrist actually determine that the stalker was legally sane? Had he gone to jail? I mean, I had so many questions. In fact, there was so much deception involved in this story that it really makes you question everything. We weren't sure if anything was true. We weren't even sure if Michael was the stalker's real name because he often used different spellings of this name. And of course, he was reaching out to Clara under dozens and dozens of different made-up pseudonyms. So, I set out to look for answers. And even though I consider myself a pretty good investigator, I quickly realized I was completely out of my depth. All of the emails and documents were written in French. At this point, the stalker was back in France. I do not speak French. Even googling basic stuff to find information in French newspapers was difficult when you don't speak the language. So, the first thing I did was enlist the help of Alison Ferreira, who is an investigative journalist at Le Monde. I caught her up to speed on this very strange story and sent her everything I had. After that, Alison and myself set out and spent several months looking for anything we could find. And this proved to be quite difficult. Part of the reason for this is that France has much stricter privacy laws than the United States. Personal information, court records, and police reports are not public information. In fact, court records are often anonymized if they are released. And even criminal records can get scrubbed after a certain amount of years. Even journalists can't really access a lot of this information. So, even if there was a court case or other news about this guy, his name was not really appearing in any of the articles. Alison did great work and reached out to lots of people, but a lot of what we were doing was not panning out and most of the questions remained unanswered as the months continued to go by. The one person who had no shortage of public information was Mark, the one we've been calling the esoteric detective. He had quite a large online presence. He's sort of an influencer in the French spiritual space. He had tons of videos on YouTube of him talking about astral projection, aliens, advanced technologies, the afterlife, Eastern religions, reincarnations, you name it. It seemed that he had written some books in the past and speaks at conferences. There was also this video of him doing a presentation about a very expensive and complicated looking device that I believe was some sort of flashing light meant to induce altered states of consciousness. I'm not sure this video was entirely in French, but I had never seen a device like this before, and like I said, it looked pretty elaborate. That is all to say that I understand why Clara was wary when Mark reached out to her and thought that Mark and the stalker may have been connected previously because it seemed like they might share some similar beliefs. I felt the same way and for that reason, I thought it would be best to find out as much information as I possibly could before reaching out and speaking to Mark. Eventually, after months of searching without much luck, I decided it was time to finally reach out and talk to Mark, the man that Clara referred to as the esoteric detective. I had no idea what this conversation was going to be like, but it turned out that Mark had so much more information than I ever could have anticipated. And after I spoke to him, the story really changed for me in so many ways. Hello? Is this Bobby? What are you? I said it's core of the science you can't argue with. No, I'm not worried about something. It's almost frustrating that it's happened. I'm litch it. I'm gonna die of project. If it's limbs were just like the wrong thing. There are everybody who is stuck into the light even if it takes them a minute. [Music] Yes, my public name is Marco Berne. At the moment, I am a kind of what we call "influencer". I have a few followers on the internet. I'm doing videos and also lectures and also trainings. My community is more or less 300,000 people in France speaking people. But it is a huge job for me. Because before that, I have a private company. I delivered meals to big companies. Before that, I used to work for American company. It was then, well, Kimberly Clark. I don't know if you know what she's doing. I know Kimberly Clark. They make toilet paper and sinks. Absolutely. I was working for them in my previous life as commercial director from France. I was launching, for example, many years ago, the subround "Huggies" in France and Europe. For example, this is my very past life. At the moment, I'm only doing training, lecturers in India in Canada, in France, in Belgium, everywhere I can go. My introduction to you comes from Clara. When she first met you, she met you as a sort of detective or investigator. That's something that you've done for work or is that something you found yourself doing? Yeah. Sorry. It's very, very simple. In fact, I was staying in Canada in Quebec for training with my wife. And I received a strange message. First of all, I thought it was a friend who was just joking with me because it was so ridiculous. They mean ridiculous. And this guy, was threatening me, saying it will be murdering me because I am kind of devolves or something like that. And he was speaking as he was in the name of light. He knew everything. He was able to go into the astral world and to divert me, to destroy me. He promised, for example, to just remove my wife from my life. And fix my life. He threatened to kill your wife. Yeah, it took no, to kill myself and to remove my wife from my life. Oh my God. Maybe it thinks that that what year was this? 23, 2023. Do you remember which month? Yeah, September. I don't remember. We were staying in Quebec at the moment. So I was pretty surprised because it was not the first time I was receiving such messages. You know, there is many, many people not really normal on the net. And as I am speaking, of very strong topics, for example, out of body stuff, something like that, I would say there is a little minority of people who are real mad on the net. So normally I block them, and my wife said, "Okay, it's just block this one as you do normally." But I said, "Oh, this one is a big one." So nice one. Maybe we should see what it is behind this message. With my personality, if somebody is threatening me, I become rumble. It was my surname when I was working in the business, for example, in Kibery, Klark. Everybody called me rumble. You know, you offer training me, "Okay, I'm coming." Let's do it now, right now. First of all, I put this message on my Facebook page. It was my first action. And immediately, I would say within 10 or 15 minutes, a guy, one of my followers replies to my message, and I said, "I know this guy. I know who is he. I know precisely who is he and where is he?" I was very interested in that. Following this path, following this foolish guy. But we made a mistake, because first of all, we were just following the wrong path. This guy, the first guy, was staying in Philippine Islands. So I was preparing myself before coming back in France. I was preparing myself to go to Philippine Islands and to put my hand, you know what I mean? Wait, wait. So you to meet directly this foolish guy? Because as he was threatening me, you know, I am a guy. This is my personality. I was practicing martial arts for many years. Another threat of being threatening. Are they opposite? I like the fight. So I will find you as the guy, the foolish guy. He wants to see me, okay. Wait, wait. So you were going to fly to fight or confront this guy in person. And you thought he was in the Philippines at the time? Yeah, I thought it was in the Philippines, but it was a mistake. Got it. When we came back at the very first night, I was just putting my intention of what you wrote, because he just sent me something like 10 messages. And at a moment, I noticed that there is another person involved in this, in this threatening. He was speaking about an American woman, a young American woman, saying he will destroy her. It was a, I was in a kind of jet lag, you know, in France. So I just tried to found this woman. So I found the name on the internet by messenger. And I sent a message, and so, how you this woman? Was it Theresa? Yeah, it was Theresa. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm not supposed to talk about that because she wanted to stay anonymous. So we have a few messages between her and me. And she just learned to me, she just said, okay, you are seeking the wrong guy. I know the guy, his name is Michael. I know this guy absolutely well. He's not staying in Philippine Island. He's somewhere in North America and he's originally from France and Switzerland. So she said to me, okay, this is very clear. I know this guy is absolutely mad. So, you know, if you know the story, it was absolutely awful. Oh, he was a threatening of death, blood, the withdrawal and she absolutely disgusting. She sent me the message and she received it. I was very, very upset about that because to be, I would call them coward. She has not the possibility to defend herself. She's only a woman. I am a man. If a man who is would like to tackle me, okay, there will be a response, you know, what I mean. So the message, the information she gave me at the moment, I was very surprised because it was absolutely disgusting. It was satanic. Exactly satanic. She was a, Teresa was a, she wrote a book about all, about the parasitic phenomena, you know, the pariah had demonic entities and she was contacted by Michael because she would like to be a film maker and he said it will be for free. It will be for free because I am so close to your views about these entities, you know. So it was a film maker. I don't know if you, you know, the story, but he kept all the record. He kept all the record for him and he tried to take Teresa on court saying, okay, this is my own work, not yours. Not yours. So he was making a film with this woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but Teresa was just driving the film. Everything. But at the end of the day, at the end of the week, he became more and more strange. For example, he tried to have an affair with Teresa. She refused. Yeah, he tried to. And he became, as he was frustrated, he became to be more and more bizarre, more and more weird. His eyes changed and he was more and more frightened for Teresa and more and more. She told me that many times. She wrote me many things. And after that, she sent me the mail she received from Michael. He was absolutely disgusting. Oh, for, oh, for. I know what Michael sent to Clara was very awful too. But more sexually things, I think. Teresa and her mother was just watching the change. This guy was transforming himself. She was really frightened by him and her mother too. More and more and more and more and more and more. So she tried to stop the business between her and him. But it just refused. He said, okay, I have all the records. It's mine completely. So she added for them within. Okay, so they were making a film together and he basically stole this film and that's when it all started. It seems. Did it ever get physical with him in terms of his stalking? Did it ever take place in person or was it all messages? She didn't. No. She wasn't touch physically speaking. But she sent her many messages, very dirty messenger, threatening Teresa of death and sorcery and many things. It is absolutely disgusting. Blood ritual. You will find you. You're just coming suicide because I am coming to you. I see you and know where you are. I will come to you. I will come to you to kill you. And when you're a single woman and you receive such a message and you don't know, you know, these guys are absolutely mad. You know, she just came to the FBI to tell the story. But at this moment, he was in Canada, you know, FBI is only for the USA. Was that right before he met Clara? I think so. I think so. I think if the phone clara after the beginning of the race, we've, we've got that makes sense. Because he originally messaged her about writing a script. So as soon as Teresa didn't want to work on the script, he flew to Montreal. And that makes sense because she was shocked at how fast he got there. Okay, we have to go to a quick break, but we'll be right back. 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So follow and listen to On par wherever you get your podcasts. At this moment, I was gaffering. A small team, I would say 10 person, many of them were just friends or followers on the network. And I said, "Okay, could you drive an investigation to know everything about this guy? Because we know the name." But it was not exactly the civil name. So first of all, we have difficulties to follow him. But one of my investigators said, "Okay, maybe we can share the little bit, my girl should be written differently." At this moment, we find we found the real guy. Okay? And we started to gather many, many, many information. It was absolutely incredible to me because I'm not a real computer man and a network man, you know, I'm not a specialist. But this people, my people, I would say, is a team, we call them, what's the name we get? Task force. Yeah, something like that. Devils, something like that. Yes, we're under something. Devils, hunters. And they found many, many, many, many information about this guy. We knew this path, where he was living. We found this exact address in France, exact address. We learned many things about his family's father, his mother, his sister, where he was studying, he said he didn't see because he was a kind of filmmaker. It was from a very local, he was young because his parents were in charge of a different responsibility in India and in many places in the world. And probably it was at this moment, but he was in contact with Indian spirituality. We found everything including Facebook page. He had a very nice Facebook page with very nice pictures of the days, in Joel. And in this Facebook page, there was two links to what we call books, some books, you know. And in one of these books, he was describing how to kill me. He wrote a book about how to kill you? He not exactly only how to kill me, but in one of these books, it's only something like 50 pages, you know. He was willing to kill me with a knife, to cut my throat. Yes. So we have a special organization in France. In this kind of terrorist situation, we could, we can inform the government, the French government. So I just send a message and say this guy is threatening me. I didn't believe in the reaction of the French government. But the day after, a policeman contacted me saying it will take care of the case. It was absolutely immediate. But as I was aware, I was informed of the precise address of the guy. I was organizing a direct visit at the very moment. I was able to leave my home and making some, I would say, a 600 miles between my home and his home. And I was able to leave when I received this call from this policeman. And she was a woman. She was an officer officer. Wait, so you were about to leave your house and drive 600 miles to go fight him basically? To, to, to, to, to me, to me. Okay, I am the guy you want to kill. What do you do now? Okay. And then the police called. The police call. But anyway, I say, okay, I'm going. I'm going to meet him because he want to kill me. I don't know why exactly because he found me on the internet. I didn't even know why he chose me. Why me? I didn't, we didn't meet each other. I don't know him. So he want to kill me. Okay, let's go. So I went to this place. I saw that the, the later boats were absolutely full. So after that, I was just seeking for the people around and say, do you know this guy? Where is he? And I immediately found few people saying, this guy is far away in Canada somewhere. He was traveling for four months. And we don't know where he's supposed to come back. Four months, traveling. And as he was not here, was not at home. I just say, okay, now I have to go home. And was he still contacting you at this point at all? As, just as he was about to come back in France, I just said to him, okay, we know who you are. And now this is a police case. I promised you, I will find you. We found you. He said that this one, I was, I am in Manitoba, you will never find me. He said, his answer was this one. I said, I will catch you. That was when he was in Manitoba. He was following Clara. Yes. And you know, we found a girl who was sharing his flat in Montreal. We found a girl and we have a direct communication with this guy. He was very difficult, but we are very lucky. And this woman said, okay, this guy, my girl, was my roommate in Montreal from this week to this week. She was giving many information about this guy. And for example, she said a few days after she left the flat, the police came in the middle of the night to catch him in Montreal. In Montreal, yes, in the middle of something like two o'clock in the night. Until this moment, we don't know why the police was seeking him. What was the reason? Because probably did something bad. Did she say anything about his behavior? Did she know him before? Yeah, yeah. And he was very strong guy, for example, for choosing even an apple on a basket he was using his pendulum. Ah, that makes sense. I heard about the pendulum. Yeah. He was trying to convince this nice woman, young woman, beautiful woman, you know, she's a unlighted guy. But he pretended on his writings to be the opposite. He pretend to me, he was the first time writing about Clara. He said she was his spouse. He was married with this guy, with a woman. I didn't know nothing about Clara. He was describing what he called his parade, parade with the French. I didn't even knew the word parade what it is, parade. It is a celestial spouse, you know. Soulmate. Yeah. Like a twin? Yeah, yes. A twin flame or something like that. Twin flames. Yeah, yeah. This bullshit, you know, to me it's a bullshit. It's a twin fan story. I found Clara. I sent her a message. But she was very upset about this story, you know, because of stalker, she called them. And she was very shy to reveal anything about her story, about this Michael criminal, like Michael criminal. What was your other name for him? Le Malad Montal, le psychopat, psychopat. He has the psychopat, psychopat and the criminal also, the criminal. So we have a very simple exchange. I sent information, a copy of what I got from Teresa to provide the Clara with precise information. She was very upset about this story. And she did. don't want to be involved in my investigation. I accepted it. This is normal. This guy was absolutely full. I didn't want to disturb the life of his lady, you know, because it was a traumatic experience. So I was just my last message to Michael said, okay, I know who you are and who are your victims to. If you attack these people, you attack myself and my team. And we take it into account when we will meet you physically. So you attack them, you attack me and my team. It was my last message. Okay, don't touch these ladies. Don't even think about sending them messages. You stop it. If you don't obey to my aura, when I found you, I would smash you. Physically, I would destroy them. So he came back in his flat in France. It took a few days, something like five days before he was arrested by the police. And he was denying everything. Because before coming back in France, he just consoled, he just erased all the Facebook publication. More and more, he was aware that my personal reaction was real. I was doing something. But before he arrested, we have already recorded everything. So when he was on custody, when he was on guard, the police officer called me and said he was denying to have this type of Facebook pages. So I sent during his custody, I sent all the proofs to the police officer. I said, perfect. Thank you so much. And he was just faceted with the proof in front of him. You know, you think it is a race from the internet? No, we have a record, a complete record of what you did and what you wrote and what you said. So he was with a misan examis French term, a judge because the police officer sent the case to a judge and the judge charged him with, first of all, for what we call, apology, de terroris, de terroris, apology. And secondly, for threatening me, threatening from death. Okay. It was on October 23 and the judgment was on December. It was very, very quick. It is very unusual in France. Normally, you have an affair, a legal affair. It is taking months and months and some time years. But it took only two months for going before the court. And I went there. So I found this guy in front of me. He was frontening me of death. He wasn't even able to just look me eyes to eyes. He was just watching at the floor. He was watching as a floor every minute, every second. And this was in the court? Yes. Even he was speaking to the judge. She was a woman of the judge. I thought it would be very quick. Something like five or ten minutes because we have also proved, but the judge invested many times, asked many questions. She was conducting another investigation. And the people inside the room was absolutely surprised. This guy was claiming he was acting in the name of light. He was following the order of the light beings. And many, many, many details like that. It was absolutely ridiculous, but it was really believing in that. Because you can say it is a psychiatric case. Okay. But he has a guide of a psychiatric exam. And the psychiatric expert said he is normal. He is supposed to be responsible for his acts. To me, this guy was not only a psychotic case. He was what we call a parasitic entity. You know, he's a Christian church. You have what we call a exorcism. People, I don't know the English chapter, sorry, but are possessive tomorrow. Like a demonic possession. The demonic possession. Yes. And this guy was under the demonic possession. It was absolutely useless to me. Do you think he was possessed? Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I don't think so. I saw it because I can see it. And the psychological evaluation said that he was sane, even though he was saying all the stuff. Normally, the church was supposed to follow the expert advice. But nobody believed in this diagnostic. Even his lawyer. I didn't believe in it. In this, the judge didn't believe in this. Nobody believed in this. It was a bullshit. This guy was absolutely mad. It was obvious. To me, more of that was possessed by a evil spirit. You know, 10 years before, if you told me for various such devils periods, I would say, no, no, it just doesn't exist. But I found that it was true. I was very surprised. I found that it was true. For example, what can I say about that? Because as I describe it in my books, my first book, for example, I am a ball because it's a case. I am able to see the light around the people. What we call the aura. It started when I was 17 or a long time ago. It is staying in me since my 17. So I saw. I can hear also the energetic feel. Because the energetic feel is real. You can see it. When you hear the noise of the energetic feel and when there is two entities in the same physical body, you read what we call a dissonance, two music, but not matching themselves. You know what I mean? Is it clear? Dissonance, yes. So I saw this guy and I saw he was a, I used to prove that it was a, on the position. He was a, he was a devolence idea. So he was condemned, but he was condemned to, what we call a probation period, what we call a surcy in French. Because it was his first act, criminal act, very, very, okay, in French, where you don't go to jail, but the next time you will go to jail. So he just got probation? Yeah, probation, yes, exactly. And he was supposed to just give me a very little, a mark of one thousand euro, but he refused to pay, he refused to pay. After that he moved from his flat and it just was on disappearing, it disappeared completely. Do you know when this started for him, it seems like he had a normal life before, like something happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether it's mental illness, whether it's a demon like you think, I mean, either way, like, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have many information including, from a close friend of him, a very close friend. And this guy is so the process, he saw the process before he was a normal guy, very interested in spiritual topics. He was very fond of Indian stuff, you know, Indian spirituality, many things like that. He was trying to gaffering all the spirituality he can find. Also, he was very ambitious. He was very willing to become famous in the movie business, but unfortunately, like many years, he wasn't very successful. It was a bad life, you know. And we also knew because we in 35 them, he had satanic friends. Two men and a woman, we know that satanic were a photo of them doing satanic things. These two people, close friend to Michael. Okay, we don't know exactly what happened. To me, it's only a guess one more time. He was involved at a certain moment, it's a satanic thing. And as he was very willing to be powerful and famous, he led to an entity penetrated his body. He led to an entity, you know, take the control of his physical body. You think he essentially made a deal with the devil, but literally, yeah, yeah, what did the friends think? What did he say about when this all started? Do we know when? He said, you know, his friend is very normal guy, very, he was in a business school, he is a very normal guy and he just watched the process, these guys became mad and mad and mad within weeks. Until the very moment, we was absolutely dangerous. It suddenly became aware that there was a demonic presence in this body. It was also a surprise for him because before that, he didn't attend such a phenomenon. And he tried to support us also. This guy is now dangerous for the society. Potentially he is a ball to do whatever you imagine, including mode. I knew him before I saw the process and I saw what he is now. He is dangerous for everybody. So this is a direct testimony, direct, was a cross-fine, this guy. After that, he disappeared completely. We all, we only knew that he was no longer working. But then one of my investigators was curious about him. She started to make an investigation on the net. She found something. And if she found him in the north of France, not very far away from Orfleur, it was renting a very little cabin in the middle of the country. And as he was not paying the rent, the so I just came to the cabin. But he didn't answer. So she used his keys and she found him dead in the entrance of the cabin. She found Michael. She found him dead inside the cabin. Oh my god. It was 45. So she immediately informed the police. The angels he employed just came out, called the police and the police came. And the police made an investigation. The cause of the death. Was it a murder? Was it a suicide? The decommissioned. The conclusion we saw on the newspapers, they found nothing. It was a natural death. No murder, no suicide. It was 45. There were not able to explain what this natural death was. They just said it was a natural death. We don't have more information. First of all, I said, okay, this is a normal death. What does it mean? But I saw this guy. And to me, this is my own interpretation, you know, my own analysis. This parasite, the parasite inside and the demon inside killed him because he was no more useful. This is my guess. And not sure. Because you know, because this entity is sucking the vital energy. So it wasn't useful because it couldn't hurt anybody anymore. So to me, this entity is this demoniac entity killed my girl and just left it body to find her or pray. I'm not sure, but to me, this is a explanation. How did you feel hearing the news? Was it complicated feeling? Were you relieved? What did you think? About my feeling, I felt nothing. No. Nothing, okay, he's dead, okay. And of the story. Sorry, sorry, but I didn't cry. My wife cried a little bit. Oh, it's a poor guy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, okay. He is a criminal. And if we had let him doing more things and we have testimony of that, maybe he would have not reached somebody. It was very possible. This story is finished. He's dead. And that's it. And of the story. Is there a reason you don't think it was just like a mental health crisis? Yeah, I told you, feel, to go, but when I meet him, because I have to meet him physically speaking, I saw what is that is was not allowed in the physical body because I can see it, okay. So it was the final proof. It could be only the mental case, a psychotic, a trickery case because I am very rational, you know, you don't tell me, but I'm very rational. But this guy was possessed. Everyone, he had a demon inside his physical body. I saw it. So to me, this is true. Do you know about how, how Claire got rid of him? No, I don't know. She didn't, so many things about the bigger she was, she went to a healer. She went to a healer. Yeah. Who did some kind of ritual to her and then said that she needs to get rid of everything he's ever sent her because he was sent to her all these rocks and like bracelets and things. And she went and got rid of them. And then the moment she got rid of those items, he texted her and said, okay, I get the message. I'll leave you alone now. Oh yeah. Oh, I'm not surprised. But thank you for the information. It was almost like he knew that she did it. Probably the entity knew that not him, but the entity. Isn't that weird? It is not weird to me. It's only real. But he didn't talk to her again after that. Okay. You don't seem, you're not even surprised at all. No. No, you know what? I know a guy in France is a Christian guy. It's more senior Gerard. He's an exorcist. And I know personally this guy. And you know, this guy was previously, you know what he was doing previously. He was an intelligent officer for France in Africa. And this guy is not an exorcist. And you know, the energetic world is real because I can, as I can go out of the body, I can travel through this reality. And this guy, Bolsonaro Gerard, is a scientific of this world. He knows everything. It's not a question of beliefs. He knows the rules. He knows the entities. He know are some time to get rid of it. It's a job. It's a very difficult job because from these entities, it is taking days and days before removing the influence before removing the entity from the physical body. This is a job. I'm a very old job. This is a very old belief. This is a very old job. In your orc simulation, we don't believe it. We say, okay, this is only budgeted. It doesn't exist. But it is true. This entities are really existing. And from time to time, that just penetrate and take control of physical body and physical personality with weaknesses. Show various weaknesses. If you just penetrate a house because there is a door, it opens somewhere. You know, normally you are not in the position. I'm not in the position because my doors are closed to be sanctity. So thank you for the information. What Clara did, she did the right things. Yeah, I guess my last question is something that I'm even wondering myself right now is I'm curious what you believe. He eventually left Clara alone. Do you think that he left her alone because of that ritual that was done to her in the cleansing or do you think it was because of the threats of Mark Auburn? Maybe both. Because I put it all. The therapy was efficient. But I put on my girl, you very huge, huge, huge pressure. I was just chasing me and you are my prey. You are my prey. I was seeking and I will catch you. You can't hide any place on the earth even in Manitoba. I will find you. I will find you. You are my prey. And I was joking at him because he was promising me to find me in the astral world and to fight me. As the day Thanks for having me. Where did you do last night? I didn't see you. You're just a liar and your God, your so-called God, doesn't exist. You are just a man-man. You are just inventing these things. And you are a criminal. You are just fooling. You are nothing. I'm not a friend of you. You just make me laugh. I was joking at him. At him in many, many, many years, maybe 10 messages. So he was under pressure. Sure, the spiritual ritual, energetic ritual, was efficient. To Clara, yes, sure. But yes, maybe it's both. After my interview with Mark and learning all of this, he emailed Clara to let her know that the stalker had passed. Later on, I spoke to Clara one more time to get her reaction. [Music] Yeah, I was just drinking coffee and I got an email and I look at it and it's an email from Mark. And he, the subject line read Mission Accomplished. And I'm like, what the fuck is that? And so I opened the email and it's Mark and he's like, hey, I just wanted to let you know that that Michael was dead. He was found dead by his doorstep. He had died of natural causes. And story over. That's it. You're good. Like, see you around. And that was the end of the message. And I don't even know. It's so strange to feel like all of a sudden, like, at that moment, I just realized how much fear I still had in me. I was kind of numb. What puzzles me is that he did predict his death. He did say that he, and that I just found out, because when we had our first interview, I reread vertically some of the passages that he had written me. And there was a lot of predictions of, you know, oh, I don't have a lot of time left, you know, rising into heaven. And so yeah, I think when I put two and two together and I realized that maybe he knew that he didn't have so much time left and then he died of natural causes at the age of 45. How can you die of natural causes at 45? Like, you know, a heart attack. As you say, like, there wasn't even any specificity to what kind of natural cause on his, I guess, maybe they don't mention when it's natural. But I just, it's just added an ingredients to the restrain story. Does any part of you like have pity for him in a way? Yeah, I think I've always had pity for him. I've always had pity for him because I made him suffer ultimately by being silent and by not being interested. This man was suffering quite a bit and he dedicated his whole life to pursuing me and I don't think you made him suffer. But the pity came from knowing that I had a part in his suffering even though it wasn't this way, an active, I mean, it was a very passive part which led to more suffering from him. But yeah, yeah, I do feel pity for him, I but there's just so many questions that are toppled up on top of one another that, you know, like the real raw human feelings are kind of under the earth. It's weird. I think most of the time when there's somebody that does harm to you, there's not a resolution like this. Life isn't like a western movie where there's a clear cut bad guy that does something bad to you and then somebody else rides into town, a next justice and then the bad guy is just gone. And the end, it's rarely the case but yeah, it isn't this one, strangely enough. And I wasn't expecting that at all. I was just kind of expecting to have a little profile for the rest of my life because someone was kind of just peeking in. I didn't, I would never wish death upon anyone and especially since, you know, like, I don't, part of me don't even hold him responsible for what he did because I do feel for some reason that he was himself a victim in this story and that he is the one who suffered most. I don't think it's fair that I had to suffer at all but I, it's not that I had empathy towards him but I, when I read that he had died, I, it took me a few days, it took for a few days for it to sink in where I just like started feeling more and more relieved and more and more free of thinking things and of saying things without like having a speaker phone put over my voice. And so I realized at that point that I had still like, had carried a lot of fear along with me through this whole thing and it really didn't end when I learned of his death. So it's not that I was happy but there is a liberation that comes with the fact that I know that he's not there physically to harm me and that he he would never be able to to harm me physically ever again was liberating and I've been feeling a lot more at peace with this whole story for the past few weeks. Mark thinks that Michael was not only possessed by an entity he thinks that this entity killed him. What do you, what do you think of that? Yeah, what do you think of that? Holy shit. That's what Mark thinks. Yeah, I know. You know, I don't, I don't know if I believe in demons but if I, I am quite open-minded about his interpretation of the story. He was possessed by something even if it was his own minds like this man was not in control of himself at all. In his first letter he did say that he wasn't, he wasn't in control of himself anymore. He like explicitly said that he would never harm me but that he wasn't in control of himself anymore. Touch, that's the beginning of a very terrifying story like whether it's his story or anyone else's story when they stop being in control of themselves. Who is in control of them, you know? And then like do we see that demon as an entity or do we see it as like a chemical imbalance in his brain? I don't know but that surely killed him. Whatever imbalance that was. [Music] I was completely stunned after my interview with Mark not only to learn that the stalker had died which by the way I never even considered that as a potential possibility but also how relentless Mark and his task force were in their investigation and pursuit of him. And in the case of Mark as a person he was so different than I thought he would be. There was no cult or past friendship with the stalker or anything it all started with a threatening social media message from a stranger. One that Mark seems to receive quite often and typically ignores. But this time, he decided not to ignore it. The way this story changed most for me is that originally, this was about Clara being hunted, and she described feeling like prey during the saga that lasted over a year and began with just a momentary chance interaction. It turns out this whole time the stalker pursuing Clara had a predator of his own, one that was even more relentless than him, and much like Clara's experience, that began with just a brief interaction as well. For me, this situation that once felt so tangled and chaotic, suddenly felt terrifyingly simple, and very ancient, like suddenly everyone fit into very old archetypes, including myself, and that versions of this have definitely played out over and over again, throughout history and in nature. I think it's just that there is a very cold indifference to the way the world balances its scales sometimes. I, of course, fact-checked Mark's description of the death, and everything he said was true. It turns out he died about a year after his last message to Clara. He even died before my first interviews with her, but none of us knew it yet because his name was not included in the small articles about the incident. According to the reports, the cause of death was indeed listed as natural causes, although it's worth noting that many different causes of death are considered natural. As far as Mark's belief that the stalker was possessed, I think I feel similar to Clara. It's very obvious that something was not right with this man's mind, even if a court psychiatrist disagrees whether that is a literal or figurative possession. I certainly can't know for sure, and I'm also not sure how much it matters at a certain point, because ultimately this man was not in control of himself and needed help. I did speak to the woman that we referred to as Teresa, off the record, and read some of the things the stalker sent her, which were horrible. She actually holds the same opinion as Mark about the possession. In fact, I would say she is even more firm in those beliefs. She told me that the stalker even bragged about it to her, and at one point said that he consciously opened himself up to being taken over by entities. I was hoping to interview her for the show to find out more and let her explain all of this for herself, but she said that she does not want to open up the door to all of this once again. I did introduce her to Clara. I think they might finally speak for the first time soon, and if there are any updates on all of this, I'll make a follow-up episode. The last thing I'll say is that I just asked Clara, and the objects are indeed still at her dad's house, but she promised that she will be throwing them away very soon. And with that, I think we have finally reached the end of this very strange saga. I want to thank Clara for being willing to share this story with me. Also thank you to Mark Auburn for talking to me, and of course, the journalist, Allison Ferreira. This has been The Stalker, and you've been listening to Otherworld. Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our producers are Theoshafer, Theocrants, Haley Parson, and Nikki Kate Delgado. Our theme song is by Cobra Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by North Americans and Juice Jackal. Our artwork is by ColdaSack Studios. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five-star review, and telling your friends about the show. If you want to hear bonus episodes of Otherworld, you could become a patron at patreon.com/otherworld. Our social media is @otherworldpod. Thank you to the team at Odyssey, Leah Restennis, Mora Curran, Josephina Frances, Eric Donnelly, Kate Rose, Colin Gainer, and Hillary Schuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something paranormal, supernatural, or unexplained, you can send us your stories at [email protected]. [Music]