Episode 1634 - Ryan Coogler

Fuck the game! [MUSIC PLAYING] All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuck nicks, what's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. What is happening? How's it going? How's it feeling? I just want to check in. Tough times, tough times in the world. Tough times, if you think a certain way. Tough times in your head, if they're already tough already, already tough already. Yeah, I just said that sentence. Look, I'm sitting in a hotel room in Traverse City, Michigan. I did two shows here last night. And they went really nice. They went well as a nice little theater. It's a comedy festival up here. I've never been up to Traverse City on some level in my immediate world right now. I'm in a room. I'm looking out on what I imagine is Lake Michigan, correct? And it's pretty. It's a little overcast. It's quiet because this is a summertime. So it's got that summertime off-season vibe. I guess it's similar to an island. Like island people. I mean, there are definitely locals who spend the summer accommodating tourists who are there to have a good time. And then here we are in the off-season time where the locals kind of can relax and sort of fortify their spirits in preparation to hide the resentment for the demanding tourists of the summer season. So it's kind of got a nice vibe. So look, folks. Today on the show, I talk to Ryan Cougler. He's the writer and director of Fruitville Station, Creed, and the two black Panther movies. His new film was called "Cinners," which he made with his frequent collaborator, Michael B. Jordan. And it's a pretty trippy movie. I didn't know what to expect. A lot of times I get guests and I get screeners. But this movie is definitely a horror movie. I think it's-- Jordan Peel does his thing, but there seems to be sort of a world of black centric horror that's coming out. It's pretty intense and pretty engaging. And I had no idea what this movie was about, but it's sort of focused in the story of the blues. And it's very grounded in music and mysticism and vampires. So there's a lot to be liked about this movie. And it was very interesting to talk to Ryan because I also watched Fruitville Station, which I hadn't seen, which is a devastating movie about a police officer killing a black young man. And it's based on a true story. And all this stuff still happens and continues to happen and continues to get worse. But it was good to talk about where Ryan came from and what his vision for films are. I'm in Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter starting this Monday, April 14th, then on Saturday, April 26th. And again, on Tuesday, April 29th, those are all 7.30 PM shows. I'm at Largo, APM show on Tuesday, April 22nd, Toronto. I'm at the Winter Garden on Saturday, May 3rd for two shows, Burlington, Vermont. I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th, and one show on Tuesday, May 6th. Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I'll be at the music hall on Wednesday, May 7th. Then I'm in Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th. Two shows there. Go to wtfpod.com/tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Yeah, so I've been away a lot. And I'm a bit untethered out here. But again, out here in the world, a lot of good people, a lot of nice people, a lot of people that come out and enjoy the relief. It's a very strange thing, though, after a show, that I know that I'm doing a show. And I know that my audience, mostly, they are grateful for the show, and they get some laughs. But then you leave, and you walk out into the world of what's happening politically, and what's happening in your own mind, and your concerns about your own life, had some federal workers come up to me after the show, who are on the edge of losing their jobs, or have already lost their jobs. And there's just not-- there's not a lot of places to go in the mind in terms of-- in reality, in terms of hope, or knowing what to do next with one's life and one's purpose. And it's just-- it's fucking brutal. But it's happening. And I am appreciative or relieved that some people in the broader cultural media universe are starting to acknowledge what's happening, and acknowledge that what we're seeing here is a very aggressive authoritarian coup of sorts. And I know that the response to that on the other side and a limited information side is that-- well, it was elected-- democratically elected-- yeah, by a small margin. But that is one of the blind sides of democracy, is you may elect a monster. And I don't know. In my mind, in terms of what people are really like, how people still see strength or hope or benefit to the country in the future with what's going on. But it is happening. It is happening. It is happening. And at some point, you guys stand up and be counted somehow. Probably through some database that some techno overlord is pilfering, but maybe from your own place and from your own point of view. I don't mean to be heavy, but Jesus Christ, I'm out here doing nothing but thinking and wandering around. And look, I can appreciate where I'm at, but still, the mind is churning. The information on the phone is churning. And it's hard not to personalize it and crumble. But try not to crumble people. Try-- oh, man. This is-- I'm sorry. I can tell you about Grand Rapids about-- I was surprised about Grand Rapids, Michigan. What a pleasant city. And I can talk about why? That'll be nice. And again, very nice people, meeting a lot of nice people. And they're still out there. And they're not people aren't hiding yet. One thing that always moves me, which I don't quite know why, but I'm always fascinated. And there's a great examples of this in Grand Rapids. Is when you have these older buildings, either built at the turn of the century, these old buildings that were once businesses, some cities that do some kind of renovation or urban renewal of whatever kind. Kind of treat these museums with a certain amount of respect. Sometimes they leave the ghost of the old signs of the business that once occupied the building on the building. And they usually kind of clean up the bricks and put new windows in. And it becomes sort of a kind of a museum piece with respect for some other time that has gone by, or at least a structure. And Grand Rapids is full of these buildings in certain sections, right, near downtown. And I just-- I love looking at them. I love looking at brick. And I love looking at old buildings from the early 1900s that have been renovated with new windows, cleaned up bricks. And for some reason, I get a real sort of poetic and moving vibe from them. I just love seeing when they're treated nicely and taking care of. And there's a lot of that in Grand Rapids. And there's also some of the best coffee I ever had in my life in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And that's weird. And sometimes I don't know what that means. And so God knows how much coffee I've drank in my life. But sometimes you go to a place and you're like, oh my God, this coffee is amazing. I'm sure I've had that experience many times in my life at different points and in different places. But this lantern coffee in Grand Rapids was just fucking amazing. Outside of that, the show was great. There's a venue there that is kind of astounding. And I noticed-- I noticed sound. I'm very sort of sensitive to sound. And this venue, GLC Live, a 20-month row in Grand Rapids, is not an old theater. It's a newly built structure for live music and live events. And sometimes if they're designed, well, you don't know where they're going to happen or how they happen or who designed it. But this is primarily a rock venue. But in terms of sight lines and in terms of the stage, it's just fucking perfect. And because of the way the structure was designed, the room is dead, which I'm a big fan of. When you do audio recording, a dead room means that you won't get any noise. You won't hear cars in the background. You won't hear bounce. But to be in a venue where the entire place was like that, it was just-- it was so-- it was kind of like a privilege to work in a place where the sound is so honest. And that venue was amazing. So I don't know if you live in Grand Rapids you have closed the Grand Rapids by a minute. Imagine if you have an opportunity to go see a show at that place, GLC live at 20 Monroe, I would do that. I would do that. Again, I'm sorry about the heaviness at the beginning. I'm just trying to manage. I can only take so much of the world before I refocus on my cats at home. And apparently, even though I've been trying to medicate Charlie and trying to get that thing under control, that little monster, I'm not sure it's working from the reports I'm getting from the woman babysitting my cats. And I don't know. So Charlie's medicated. I'm medicated. And this beast porn, though I was optimistic and excited at the beginning, I'm not sure that it's doing what I wanted to do, hence the opening of this particular podcast. But again, that's reasonable. But how much time during the day do I need to obsess and panic about it? I mean, right now, nothing's happening out my window. Lake Michigan is calm. There's a nice overcast. There seems to be some hills in the distance. That's what's happening right now in my real-time life. What's happening in my mind, that's layers. All I'm thinking about is Charlie beating up on the other cats, authoritarianism happening in my country, the future. What's going to happen when I go to New York, when I go to Toronto, when I go here there, I'm happy I'll be home for a few hours, for a few weeks before all these shows to tighten up the hour. Yeah, in my health, my mind, my physical fitness. It just is ongoing at all times. And the only way to counter that is like, maybe I can lock into my phone and just completely have single, singleness of focus on bullshit that I can hold in my hand. Or I can just panic. And I thought that the medicine would kind of temper that, but it doesn't seem to be doing it. And clearly, Charlie is shitting outside the box and beating the fuck out of the other cats. I guess Charlie and I together are going to have to move through this medication trial, you know, and figure out what's happening for both of us. I'll get home and we'll reconnect on that and see what we can do. I don't fucking know, man. Man, first couple of days of this trip, sometimes that three hour time difference. I was just fucked up and beside myself, a little loopy. But again, the shows have been good. Focusing on the work has been helpful. You know, trying to get exercise and eat right has been helpful. Talking to like-minded people and talking to close friends about what I'm going through and what they're going through has been helpful. Kind of figuring out a path to sort of take action in ways that I can. Speak my mind and ways that I can is helpful and important. Stressful time. And there's some two levels of concern or care. You do have to take care of yourself and your vessel and your mind, but you also have to stay engaged and take action in any way you can to push back on what is happening. Okay. Okay. Brian Cougar, very interesting guy, interesting story, great filmmaker. The movie centers, opens and theaters this Friday, April 18th, that's showing in IMAX, which is the format Ryan encourages you to see it in. It is a horror movie. It is a vampire centric horror movie, but in a very unique way, it's framed around music and around the blues and around the black experience from the Delta to Chicago back to the Delta and the different sort of ways he approaches music in the movie are interesting. And look, I'll let it speak for itself. This is me talking to Ryan Cougar. While wife was a son, I was an interpreter before I convinced her, I might move with me. Really? Yeah. So you can do it? I can't do the word. I'm not like her bro. Yeah, she's, where did she do it for? She did it. Her first job, she got hired by a nonprofit called Decora. So she would help, basically help deaf people find work and get them acclimated on a job. Oh wow. And then when I did Cree, one, she decided that she wanted to come, because she was always there for me whenever I made movies, even when I was at film school. She was always basically producing. Right. I thought it wasn't like an official thing, because I was in film school where everybody on a crew had to kind of be part of the school. Sure. And I'm saying, and I made a fruville. She was working on her nine and five, but she would come. You know, because you know, she worked on eight hour days. Yeah. We were working 12s. Yeah. And she would get off work, come straight to set. Yeah. Oh, I got Cree going. She decided that she wanted to come with me to Philadelphia to be there for me. So she got to leave an absence from her job, right? But then she, you know, basically, like, became an independent contractor, like an independent son of an agent, and got hired, you know, by agency in Philadelphia while we were there. So she was working there. Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, helping, you know, helping to help a student at school this day and helps him on job training another day. And then she would come to set. So she was part of, like, she got part of, like, a job placement, temporary job placement place that needed interpreters for whatever. So she just to stay busy and do a service. Yup. And then did the same thing in LA when I was in post. And then when I did a Panther, she did the same thing, you know, like, was working in LA. And then I convinced her after that, I moved you to start making films full time with me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, well, because that's the interesting, you know, thing in that, I mean, she didn't have to work, right? I mean, she could. I mean, back then we did. She did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, she was, I mean, she was, I mean, I was, I was 20 grand in, in day film school. So maybe she had it. So yeah, it was, it was, it was bad. Like, like, you know, we wasn't married yet. And neither like, like, um, we was engaged. Yeah. But um, but she had like, like, she was, you know, you know, we don't come from no money, bro. Yeah. So like, it was, you know, we didn't get to the place where, you know, you can argue she didn't have to work to like, I just wondered if she had, she was, you know, it was part of a feeling of service to do the work. - 100% bro. - Yeah. - Yeah, 100%. - Yeah. - 100%. But she also had come from like, you know, salty to the earth people. Like her pop is 93 right now. - 93. - And her mom, it's from the Philippines, moved to the Bay Area when she was like, when she was like, 2021. - Yeah. - So, she far is generation on her mom side, and then she, she silenced generation, you know, on her dad's side, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - And you know, it came up without a lot. - Yeah. - So, so she always was a worker. You know, she was always like, she was always gonna get hired, you know what I'm saying? - But it's, it's, it's rare that I think you find people, and they're very important that do work that helps people. - 100%. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - No, no, no, yeah, like real work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like people. - Yeah, I built those people up. - Yeah. - Yeah, you know, 100%. - And most people are out for themselves. - Yeah. - Not, not hard. - Yeah, and you grew up in that as well, right? - Yeah, my, my, my mom, um, works for a, a nonprofit, founded by, um, founded by a Jesuit priest. - Yeah. - Um, in Oakland, in a, in a, did community organization. - Right. - So, so the nonprofit itself would, it would employ and train community organizers that would then go out and train. - Yeah. - Community, so it was an international organization. My mom was an executive, though. There she started off as the founders, uh, secretary. - Yeah. - And eventually worked our way up to being like the CF forward organization before she left it. - Like in, in those situations, they're like, what is the job of a community organizer? To be honest, would she, bro? - Like, like, like, I don't know. Like, like, like, like my mom's job was what I knew. - Yeah. - She worked in her office. - Yeah. - Like, in, in Oakland, not far from my school, she did a lot of paperwork, like, um, she had like a copy machine and a computer and, you knew that. - Upstairs in the downstairs, and upstairs was where our boss was. - He ran the organization. - Right. - And he had a lot of, like, I was a kid, bro. He had a lot of papers and people would come in and meet. - Yeah, yeah. - You know what I'm saying? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And, um, what just, I mean, it's weird because I asked, 'cause, you know, in fact, I had a lot of Oakland around me lately, 'cause I had Delroy in here. - Yeah. - Couple of days ago. - Yeah, Delroy lives, he called it. - He's from somewhere else, but he lives, he lives in Oakland. He's living in Oakland for like, all in all, like, 40 years. - Yeah. - And then, like, last week I was with Kamal, you know, Kamal. - Just last night, ran into Boots. Boots is from Oakland. - Yeah. - Yeah, boots is from Oakland. - He just went to a restaurant and saw that hat. - Yeah, I had to rear hat. - Yeah. (laughs) - That's like, you know, it was funny. Last time I saw Boots, I was in a restaurant and saw the rear hat. It was like a year and a half ago. It was actually just a year as some Chinese got out. - It was before you both made our movies. - Oh, yeah. - 'Cause he's finishing his right now too. - Right, right, but this must be his second and third movie, right? - His second movie. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause he did that TV show. - Yeah, and he did that, the weird movie. - That crazy movie. - Yeah, it's incredible. It's a sorry to bother you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - With the horse-setter, guys. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I loved it, man. I loved it. - Yeah, yeah, whenever I talk to him, I almost brought my notebook in here. I feel the same way I bought a ball, oh, listen to your podcast. You gonna say some, it's a strong chance, you gonna say some right down, you know? - Down it. - Like, boosters like that, whenever you, sometimes I bring my notebook when he's talking to me, 'cause he talks to me about history and he got such a unique perspective, like being a musician and a filmmaker. - So like, I had a good conversation with Delroy, he's an amazing guy, amazing actor. - But when I went to see the movie, I went to see sinners and I didn't really know anything about it. (laughing) Right, so I go over there and I had no idea it was a music movie. You know, I'm kind of like a blues person. - I see all the guitars. - Yeah, you know, I got how I went. - I went wolf up here on the wall. - Oh, wow, yeah. - That's Chuck Berry and then this picture. - Oh, that's a male, they go to wolf, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. - That's a good one, right? Beautiful. - Doing the thing. - Yeah, I'll see Chuck now, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - And that's Mick, huh? - That's Mick, yeah. - But so, like I get in there right out of the gate, I'm like, oh shit, it's a blues movie. (laughing) - That was awesome. - I'm like, all right. I had no idea where we were starting, but we started writing it at the Delta, you know, and it was probably the 20, 30, 32, is set in here. - 32, yeah. - So it's after the old old guys. - Yeah, you just said, just, right, you're getting into the guys that knew them, but the next ones, and then they, - Exactly. - Some of them moving up to Chicago. But in terms of like this movie was, after creed, after the creeds, after Black Panther, like what makes you wanna kind of get into this story? - Man, that's such a good question, bro. So I tend to make movies, like I'm drawn to stories about identity. - Yeah. - And in my identity, I was an American, I was an African American, a Black man, with some folks who call like a foundational Black American, meaning my ancestors have been here a very long time. You know what I'm saying? - Have you traced it? - I can say interesting name. - We have never heard your last name before. - Oh, yes, a German name. - It's German, yeah. - So it means somebody German owned one of my ancestors. - Right, right. And it's something that I'm always, it affects everything. You know, my identity, like culturally, my identity, personally. And the older I get, the more I'm interested in the question. Like I was interested in this question when I was a kid. And now I have kids. And I'm even more interested in it. You know, getting to the root of why I am now, but also why the world is the way it is. - Yeah, it was my place in that. - Yeah. - So with Fruville, I was telling a story about, you know, a place that I know. You know, it's like down the street. - Down the street, exactly. And that's a devastating film. You know, the way you shoot it, it's kind of intimate and menacing. - Yeah. - And the decision to include the real footage at the beginning. - Yeah. - Yeah, because you know what's gonna happen. - Yeah. And then it's the process of humanization. - Yes, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Which is what the camera is capable of doing. You know, and we notice in the edges, everybody's got a high def, you know? - Camera in a pocket. - Yeah. - I mean, in the world has been changed by that, but also reinforced in some ways. But for me, you know, each film, I like to start with a question. And for Fruva, the question was, you know, initially it was like, how could this happen here? 'Cause I had a view of the Bay Area. And I think everybody did it. How they own personal view of the Bay Area and the question of how a man could be, you know, essentially executed. You know, this is where the Panthers were founded. - Yes. - Where we from, you know, we're founded for this very reason, because these things were happening. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? So in studying, I filmed, you know, I got to dig in, but also like, I discovered things about myself. You know what I mean? On that movie, I realized I wanted children. You know, like I didn't think I wanted kids before I made that movie, but through the process of making it, of many things, it was also a story about a father. You know, you know, a father, you know, and I was like, I mean, I'm gonna, I wanna see what that's like to have, you know, and for Creed, I got the idea for that, 'cause my father, my father got sick, you know, in a way I didn't understand. - Is he still around? - Yeah, he's good. - Okay. - He's good, but you know, it was touching gold for a while, you know, while I came up with that idea. - Yeah, we're heading out, now when you, like to go back to Fruitville for a minute, like. - So you heard that story and something about that story and it's a sadly common story is that, you know, there was no way for you not to identify with the possibility and the reality of that. - Yes. - And so when you start to decide to create a story around that guy, - Yep. Do you talk to his wife or his girlfriend? - Yes, I'll talk to everybody. - You talked to all of them. - Because, you know, because what unfolds there is interesting is that, you know, to honor that guy's, you know, memory, you know, the honesty that you took to that story, which is like, he's flawed guy, he's got problems. - Yeah, totally. - And, you know, but he's not different than anybody else. He's just trying to get by. - Yeah. - And then, you know, this horrendous thing happens to him, specifically because of racism, really. And that, and then, you know, it's weird every time you see a movie like that or you hear a story like that, you're like, well, did that fucker have to pay that cop? - Yeah. - And it's never enough. - No. - But, so you learned about yourself, even approaching the guy as a father, that by telling that story, you know, you're able to create a full picture of not just the tragedy, but bringing the humanism to it. This is a guy just trying to get by. - Yeah, totally, totally. And a guy from a community, a guy who had people who he loved, a guy who had people who was calling on him. - Was he from Oakland? - He's from Hayward, actually. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, so it's a couple cities over. - And what did you, when you finished that, you know, being with that story for so long? - Yeah. - Like, the fear doesn't go away, right? - No. - No. - No. - No, man. Like, I mean, when you follow me finishing a movie and putting it all into depression, you know what I'm saying? - That must have been depression on a few levels. - A lot of levels, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause we were released it. That was when George Zimmerman already came down. - Yeah. - So he walked basically, like while we were in theaters, you know, a part of me was very naive, you know, when I was in my mid-20s, making that movie. - Yeah. - I was thinking, I mean, it's a maybe a different, maybe it's a, you know, and it was very clear to me at the time. I was like, yeah, maybe you're probably not, you know. - Well, I mean, the powerlessness of it is, it almost seems, you know, like with this government, you know, anybody who thinks differently, - Yeah. - Who has, you know, the, who believes in tolerance and empathy, you know, it's all of a sudden been othered as well. So there's a sort of a trauma vibration happening now, but the black community's no forever. Since they've been here. - Oh yeah. - So, but the powerlessness, it seems to me that what you land on, you know, even with centers to some degree, is that the only power you have is community. - Yes, sure. - Right? - Yes. - And what you have in that is you have, you know, extended family and people who understand the struggle, but also just want to live their fucking life. - Yep. - Yep. - And, you know, and a beauty and an epic beauty in that. - Yeah. - Yeah, that epic beauty and seeing each other, having people who see you understand your position in society or the superhuman pressures that's on you. - Yeah. - But also simultaneously understand that you're just a person. Like, I want to have a good time for a night where it wants to dream or wants to spend time and wants to make a home to your kid, you know? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - All of those things, I thought, you know, it was, you know, that was what I realized that I wanted to make movies about. - And did you, when you get, when you started making movies, was that on your mind? - I mean, that idea, I think like, was imprinting on me just circumstantially, like, like, like, how my family gets down and how my neighborhood got down, like, you know, like, what it was like to be from Oakland at the time. - What did your old man do? - Your mom's dad worked as a youth guidance counselor in juvenile hall. So like, essentially, man, he hasn't had that job for a long time now, but it was essentially like, a cross between a childcare provider and a group home and a prison guard. - Yeah, right. - And I'm saying like, it was where kids who got incarcerated would go in this job of a youth guidance counselor was, you know, you kind of had to be the adult there that, you know, make sure the kid was good and kind of helped guide the kid into adulthood in the time that they're there. But you also have to, you know, like, like, make sure that they not leave in this place you're escaping, have to make sure you're not harming themselves or the other young people I should cross right away with them. - That was his job. - Did he see the movie? Did he see all the movies? - Well, dad, yeah. - Yeah, I saw my movies, yeah. - And it was, when there must be something after watching Fruitville that, again, that powerlessness, that no matter what he does or how good he does it, and no matter how good these kids are when they leave, or what they try to do, it's not safe. - Yeah, and reality, 'cause I had a chance to work on my dad for like, for like, one say, for like maybe five years. - I'll work on my dad part-time, and all the C people at the job, 'cause the job you were like a blended these two things. - Yeah, I'm saying like, yeah, yeah. - All the C people that lean more towards, like treated the job like they were a prison guard. - Disciplinaried. - Yeah, like, I mean, this is like, you know, this is like, like law enforcement at Jason, you know what I'm saying? Like, and they were kind of bleed over into, you know, like, they're never being cops. - Yeah. - And then you had people who had the same job who was way more on the childcare provider. - It's social workers. - Yeah, like, you know, you know, really like trying to raise the kids, my, my pop was maybe too forward that way. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Never really got promoted. - Right. - I kind of, I can't do much. - Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like, I tried to, I tried to be like my dad while I was here. It was a really tough job to have, bro. Like, like, like, and my dad lost a lot of kids, man. Like, like, so many, so many of the kids, my dad was close with, we get released and get murdered. I get released and got a prison for a long time. - Yeah. - And, you know what I mean? And, you know, even before I knew what my dad did, we were walking around in the Bay Area in the 90s. And it would be, you know, growing men who would run up to my father and hugging, sometimes break down crying. And I'm, I would realize later that, yeah, these were guys and my dad had, you know, I mean, at a place where, you know, not everybody looked after him. - You're at Kudagani either way. - Yeah. - And they are right. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. - And grateful, for sure. - Yeah, my pop, it's career, maybe wasn't the greatest at that place though, you know, Sam Flau's reasons, but he looked out, he looked out for the kids. - But that's the impact. - Yeah, you can change someone's life. - Yeah. - So how did you get into the movie making after, so you were doing that when you were, was that your first job, were you real, man? - No, no, hell no. - Yeah. - No, I didn't work there until I was 21. - Oh, I mean, working place, I was like 13. - Yeah. - I was younger bro, like my first job was, my first job was I did a gardening with my uncle. He had a landscaping company. So I was working with him when I was, I was like eighth grade, ninth grade. - That's your dad's brother? - No, he's my dad's cousin. - Oh, okay. - Technically my cousin. - Yeah, yeah. - So orders, we call him my uncle. - See, you go running around with the mowers and stuff? - Running around with the mowers, bro. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. My uncle, my uncle is like, my uncle is like, you ever watch Breaking Bad? - Yeah. - My uncle is like Gus Freen, breaking bad. Like, looks like Jean Carl, you know, like the whole, yeah. - The whole, get down and he also owned a couple KFCs. - Yeah, like him and his wife owned KFCs. So they owned a KFC in Inreville, so then as soon as I turned 16, I could work there. - You're out of the mowers? - And I was out of the mowers and into the grease. - And it was like, yeah, exactly. You know, and then, working for Herman's, Herman's Corporation. And then I worked in a couple group homes. As a childcare provider, you know, and then when I hit 21, I worked with my pop for a little bit. - So the group homes, like, now that experience is that, how much did that inform your perspective in terms of empathy? - Big time, bro. - Yeah. - Big time. Incredibly, man, like, you know, you see how much as human beings, we kind of products of a coin flip. - Yeah. - You know, like you have kids in there that had no saying in how they life went. You know, they might have, you know, you know, sound like they, maybe they parent made a decision or. - Yeah. Or both parents might have a decision or an adult, and they collected them or, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - And now, the struggle that I life for the rest of my life, from that point, is to figure out if that action, somebody else took against them is going to find them. - And how to fight back from within themselves against taking the wrong path, getting stuck in the wrong situation. - Yeah, or harming themselves. Like, you know, like believe in that, that they, that they deserve punishment. - Yeah, it's complicated. - You know, 100% broke. - Yeah. - Well, there's a coin flip in Fruitville too. Like, you know, I don't know. His poor mother, you know, that moment at the end where she's like, I told him to take the train. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I mean, did you get a sense from talking to her that you lived with? - Oh, she told me that. - Yeah, like, you know, the movie was, like what I, I mean, I would be kind of gathering in a real interesting way. Like, I was at USC Film School, right? So after you work at KFC, how do you get to the USC? - I mean, it's the whole time I'm playing football. So I'm a football player. - Yeah. - And I'm taking a school series, some of our golfers to get a football scholarship. My parents was, you know, was middle class. - Yeah. - Like, and you wanted to be what? - I wanted to be a professional football player. But I figured, you know, I knew that was the order I got the more I understood the odds that I happened in shirt. - That's good. - And I always took care of school. So I figured I'd be a doctor. - All right. - Even if I couldn't do that. - That's a long haul. - Yeah. (laughing) - Yeah, but, but, you know, my parents put me in, put me in good schools, man. - Yeah. - You know, private schools in Oakland, in Oakland and Berkeley. And, you know, they would always like, it would make it there let it be known to me that it was a sacrifice for them to, you know, pay for school. - Right. - And, yeah. - So I had to tell them what's the, exactly. - I had to take the work series. - Yeah. - But always, my whole goal was to make it so that they didn't have to pay for me to go to college. - Right. - I'm saying so. - So I wanted to get a football scholarship. - All right. - So I got a football scholarship to a school called St. Mary's College, that's in Morocco. You know, they known for a basketball program. - Yeah. - They had a football program back then, it's who, and I went and I was majoring in chemistry. And I was getting my eyes kicked, like, with the lives, like the lives of football practice when working out. - I could never get chemistry, man. - Yeah. - I just could never get the elements, or like, it's like math. I couldn't do it. Man, you like, you a comic, bro, you could do it. - Yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - But you can't get, you can't charm your way through chemistry. You're not charming your way through a comedic career neither, but I should be scientific. - But the job is charming. (laughing) - You gotta have the charm to deliver. - Yeah, you good. - You can't get up your own stage and just be charming, bro. (laughing) - You watch if you're a comic. (laughing) - There's definitely a lot of that going around. (laughing) - Oh man, that's funny. - But yeah, so okay, so you're doing the chemistry, you're doing the football, and then, all of a sudden, what? - So I'm playing, bro, like, I'm playing on 17 years old. I'm playing my freshman year, a true freshman year. We getting killed, though. I think we got one in 11 or something. - Yeah. - And then all I know where they dropped the football program. Like, the school makes a business decision. We're not gonna do this no more. - But does that mean you can't go there anymore? - Well, what it meant was, if I stayed there, they would have honored my scholarship, but there's no team. So I wouldn't be, I'll be going to school for free with not playing football. - That's, you know. - That's all right. - We're not there for me. At 17, when I'm trying to go to the NFL, I'm sure, yeah. Or at least I want the option to try, you know what I'm saying? Like, once again, identity was wrapped up in being a football player. So I was like, "Well, I'm gonna walk around, "I'm a campus and do what?" You know what I'm saying? So like-- - That gave you used to play football. - Yeah, yeah, so I got a scholarship offer from a couple of schools, one of them being Sacramento State. Took that 'cause I wanted to stay close to home. And I had to switch my majors. Like it was clear to me that the chemistry wasn't gonna work out. - Yeah. - You know, saw I went to finance. - Oh yeah. - And while I was at St. Mary's College, it's a liberal arts school. They make you take English classes. - Sure. - I took a creative writing course, my spring semester. The semester that they job the program. - Yeah. - I'm going through all of that. And I was in a class with a teacher named Rose Mary Graham. And she read something that I wrote and told me I should write screenplays. - Yeah. - So that's how I happened. Like she sat me down and said, I think she got a Hollywood write screenplays. So I had that in the back of my head, started thinking about it, started writing on my own a little bit. And then I told my girlfriend at the time, was my wife now. - Yeah. - And then she bought me a screenwriting software. - The final draft. - Final draft, yeah. - And then I was one of those when I became like my-- - Did you love it? - Love it, bro. - Yeah, like I found something that, that outside of football, that I really loved. - Because there's the immediacy of creating the moving story is beautiful, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - Still to this day, man. I don't open that app up until I'm ready to go. - Yeah, yeah. - Like I got that much reverence for it. - Yeah, yeah. - So you don't just fuck around with it. You're just, when you get the story in your head, you go. - Yeah, I gotta get an online type of shit before I go. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So then you apply to film at USC? - Yeah, I started with what happened was I went to Sacramento State. - Yeah. - New team, new environment. - Yeah. - And I immediately got there. And I think Rosemary might have helped me, like finding people who have shown me how to make movies at that school. a big school, call like a commuter school at the time. And like they got different departments. She really believed in it. - Yeah, she did, man. - Yeah, that's great. - Because it's not like you should write a short story. I mean, you must have written in a very specific way where it was so visceral to her. She's like this guy, he's got a sense of it, maybe of telling a story with those bursts of description. - Yeah, maybe. - Yeah, so she said you up with the film guys over there? - Yeah, she helped me figure it out. And I went there and had a great professor named Dr. Roberto Palmo, Argentinian American, Capp. I think he just retired. He was like, he was like film theory, critical studies. - Okay. - And then I took production classes with a dual name, Steven Busch, who went to USC Film School. And kind of ran the production department at Sac State, like the one that he learned from. - Oh, okay. - So you got a sense of all the sides of it. Now you watching movies? - Man, what? - Yes. I mean, that was, that was learned cultural behavior. - Sure. - But when you get to college, when you take the theory class. - Big time, bro. - And you're breaking them down. - Breaking them down. - Which movie was like, okay, I get it. Probably a movie called Within Our Gates. - Oh yeah. - Yeah. I mean, I thought one was what you're filming. - We got, we got, it's Oscar Michaud. - Okay. - Yeah, yeah, we got to watch, we got to watch Barth of a Nation. - Yeah, okay. - Yeah, yeah. - Which was like a, like a fucked up watch. As a black person, yeah, I'm saying. - Griffith, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we watched, we watched within our gates the next day. - Yeah. - So, I don't know that film. - So yeah, it's, it's, Oscar Michaud was, was, was, he was our first major notable filmmaker out of the African American community. - Yeah. - Yeah. - He doesn't have like a counterpart, like, I can't, name a white cultural counterpart for him. - Sure. - Yeah. - Because before Oscar Michaud, there wasn't, there wasn't, we didn't have it, you know what I mean. - Yeah, I think I might have learned something about him at some point, but I don't, I never saw the movie. Yeah, he was a beautiful filmmaker. - Yeah. - And kind of like the first filmmaker to crowdfund. - Okay. - You know, like, like when you would go around to folks in the African American community, I had money and kind of piece together as budget. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And kind of recognize the value of, of, of having, telling your own stories, especially in a time, like I think it was made in, and it was made immediately after Bertha Venation, it was a lot of action. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, a lot of, a lot of his movies have been lost. And he had a whole, he had a whole era of contemporary age. Man, it's a beautiful, nonfiction series called, Hollywood and Black. - Oh yeah. - It's just the same he and Deity, it talks about Oscar Michaud in some of his contemporaries. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, and folks that came after him, but you know, experience was, was magical. We also, we also watched a film called "Loneless Horror." We watched, John Salesman, we watched "Zoot Suit." - Yeah, I remember him experience, he's been like the back of my hand. - Well, those, and also independent, like, you know, sales independent, you know, making his own movies, but it's, it sounds like Oscar was, you saw the possibility, even, historically, to move, you know, within the community and from the community. - Yes, sir. - Yeah, yes, sir. - And then like, you know, in terms of your chops as a director, like when you start doing shorts and stuff, you know, who were your influences? 'Cause you got, you know, it's a rare thing where people got to vibe with the camera. You can be, you can be efficient. But to have, you know, the control that allows you to also express yourself, you know, with the camera, as opposed to just with the story, that's something different. - Yeah, yeah. - You work with the same DP? - No, no, I worked with several, like, like, I think I worked with three professionally, but my last two movies have been with Autumn Arcopa. - But like, it seems like with Oofvale, you were like, you know, you knew the effect you wanted was gonna come from how you move that camera. - Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it comes from everything. But the camera is the main vehicle, you know what I mean? Like, you know, it's essentially like the canvas, you know, you know, to the painter. - Well, I liked about filmmaking, the edge that it scratches. Like, like, well, I liked about writing was that it was different from football. - Right. - In that, it was just me. - Yeah. Football is football is like, it's like, almost like, it almost moves beyond being a team sport. It's almost like paramilitary. - Yeah, sure. - Yeah. - And I play why I receiver, for me to even have a chance to catch a pass, so many things have to go right. - Yeah. - You know, that I also, that I completely outside of my control. - Yeah. - They got to do it. My teammates, and they individual battles, and the play call is coming from the coach. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, I get hit. Not getting hit. Yeah, so some, you know, so many things have to go right for me, even how the opportunity to touch the ball. - And you know, and you gotta be so in it that you can't second guess it. - 100%. - And I gotta be right, once it gets to me. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, and can be a couple hundred snaps in the game. - Yeah. - You know, and if a wire receiver has 15 catches, that's like a career. It's like a career day. - You know, you know, you know, you know, it's sound like, you know, a good day is like, five or six touches. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And that's a lot of football for five or six touches, you know. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And, you know, your number got to get called like 10 times. - Yeah. - You know, you know, and don't let the guy garden you be good. - Yeah. Like, you know, too many obstacles. - Exactly, but with the, you know, when I had that final drive, it's just like, oh, shit, it's just me. - Yeah. - I got the choice. - I gotta show up, but also also, if it's just sucks, it's on me. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But then, you know, I am a community guy. I do, I do like the team aspect. - Yeah, because it's nice on the day where like, maybe you injured. - Yeah. - But you know, but you can go out there and help a little bit, and your team's still a wins. - Yeah. - And you contribute it. It's not on you every day. - Yeah. - Or if you have a great teammate. - Yeah. Like, you get to be there and watch some like, great be great. - Yeah. - And you roll along with them. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, the fully collaborative effort. - Yeah, or at all moments where everybody is on the same page. Like, everything goes right. - Yeah. - You know, you didn't even think about it. Everybody's in rhythm. - Yeah. The guy walks in the end of it all, all you can be in touch. - Yeah, yeah. - It's like, oh shit, you know, like that feeling. So that being one set, with a production team, scratch that edge. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So it was like, it was like, I got to itch scratch, and I didn't even know I had. - Yeah. - And then I got to itch scratch that I knew. - Yeah, right. - So it was a big thing for me to learn like, what everybody's job was. - Yeah. - High everybody's job worked. So I could respect them and communicate with them. And that camera, the job of the cinematographer, it's a very important job. And it's also a thing like, when you learn, if you say, I wanna make movies, usually you end up picking up a camera soon and learning really quickly, but you better know what you're doing with that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, movies are gonna suck. - Yeah. (laughing) And that for me was super important. I learned in film school and-- - At USC. - Yeah. So you're a student on your own. So you could at least know what you want from the DP. - Exactly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And that's an ongoing conversation, right? You know what the DP on set. - Oh yeah, man. I was on a phone with her today. I was on a phone with her all the time. I had to ask her something for a press. 'Cause I was trying to, 'cause we shot film. And we shot two very unique formats. And centers, it's film. - We saw film, yeah. - Oh my gosh. - We saw him 70 millimeter. Well, you might, how'd you get two of, you know, he's two characters. - Yeah, Mike. - Yeah. (laughing) - How do you get, what'd you think of it, bro? Like did you enjoy it? Well, it's funny. 'Cause I was driving back with my girlfriend and I was talking about what a great actor that guy is, what a movie star he is. And she was like, yeah, he's so handsome. I'm like, yeah, and you got two of them. (laughing) - It was funny, bro, I was just looking at these standees that they made, for like, in theater and it's two of them. And people can go in and take a picture. And I'm like, oh man, I want to work on pictures for the come out of this, kind of laughing to myself. - But so, but you shoot that on film, but you still have to use the technology to make that seamless, right? - Yeah, yeah, I had a great visual effects team. - Yeah. - I had a, I think I got named Michael Rallett, was my visual effects supervisor. He's born in Germany, grew up out there. He lives here now. And another guy named James Alexander, who's my visual effects producer. You know, we did a lot of research in planning and we were able to achieve some of those. - Yeah, it was a great effect. - Yeah. - But before we get to that though, you kind of put Michael Jordan on the map, right? Well, Mike B? - Yeah. - I mean, I knew who Mike was, like when I was coming out of film school, I was looking for somebody to play Oscar Grant. You know, and I know him from his work, you know, from his television career, and his film career, like he did a film called Chronicle and a film called Red Tells. They both kind of came out in theaters at the same time. He was not the lead of all those movies. - Right. - But he popped enough, you know, and before that, he was in a lot of really great television shows. He was in the wire. - Oh yeah, yeah. - I was a kid. - That's right, yeah. - And he was in a couple of Jason Kadem shows. He was in a parenthood in Friday night lights. - Yeah. - You know, so people knew him. Like he was bubbling, like, you know what I'm saying? And like what I did do was, you know, coming to him with what ended up being his first chance to lead a movie, you know, to be the leading man. I mean, leading person, I should say. - Sure. with this before we move on. So you talked to Oscar's mother, and we were talking about that coin flip and about the weight of that. Did you find that that was something she couldn't let go of? I mean, she mentioned it to me. You know, like, so I was clear. That's what you put in there. And being a parent now, you know. Like I've been in situations where my kids, like, bump their heads, a twisted dianku, and my mind is like, "Racking it, racking my brain, "I'm like, "Hey, what can you have done better?" Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why'd you let him play on that? What would you, should have been better? It's so brutal. And, you know, so for that situation, like, I know, like, you know, she brought that up, she told me for her reason. Yeah. You know, like, like, um, it's a powerful moment in the movie. Yeah. Because, you know, you've already seen the arc of what happened, and she's, you know, she's got to live with that. And it came from her. Yeah. And it's telling her to do what she thought would be safer. Yeah. Right, of course. Yeah. Because her fear was getting arrested. Yeah, yeah. You know, he was on paperwork. So, like, you getting the car, when you know, homies got a gun on them and when you know, homies is drinking, you know, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, big jail. You got to prison. You know, you know, you know, you're staying on violence or parole. So, for her, it was like, man, you know, let's alleviate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, take public transportation. Yeah, it's so heavy. Yeah. So, I didn't realize that Creed was, in that story within the Rocky franchise. Yeah. And he had a little juice from Fruitvale. It was crazy. I pitched, I pitched Slime before I made Fruitvale. Yeah. I pitched him while we were, while we were, a couple weeks out from production. We might be like, one week out. Yeah. And I flew down that land and pitched him and, and Kevin King and his agent at the time, doing Adam Vinny, I was pitching them. - Yeah, while I was, while I was getting ready to make Fruitville, and it's the long, rightfully so. He was like, he heard me out and was signed a couple of autographs for me to send me on my way. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - But after we made Fruitville, it was great that Vinny kept pushing and he just long-time around, it met with me again, and it was open to work with me. - And in Irwin, Wincore? - Irwin, yep. I had to go see Irwin in New York. - I talked to that guy. - Yeah, you did? - Yeah, how's he finding? - Well, you know, it's quite a career. - Yeah. - I mean, it seems like those guys, when he's made some good movies, but when it comes to business, he holds a line. I knew there was some tension for a while with some people. - Yeah. - But he was good to work with? - Yeah, Irwin was cool with me. Like, well, for him, he was cool with me. - And when you told Jordan that he wanted him to do that, would he like, hell yeah? - Yeah, he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's tough, man, 'cause like, the reality is, when it comes to Irwin in slide, I'm stepping into a 40-year-old relationship. And it was my job to be respectful to everybody and stand up, you know, in the perform form. - Yeah, I don't want to let anybody down. - Yeah. - I want to make a fight. I made a bad decision betting on me. - That's a big movie. - Yeah, a big movie. - And then like, Black Panther, I mean, that movie changed the world. (laughs) I don't know about that. - Yeah. - But I mean, starting the a lot of people with the go see it, and yeah, I'm incredibly proud of that movie. You know, I'm a proud, proud of all of them, brother, thankfully. - Well, like you said, when you go into each film, you have something in your mind about it. What was it with Creed? And with Creed, the question was, it was very much wrapped up in my relationship with my father. - Yeah. - Because his illness was the first time I saw him like truly vulnerable. - Right. - And had to like reckon with the idea that the strongest man that I know, is, you know, could possibly die. - Yeah. And I was watching him lose his physical strength in the struggles he was having with that. - Yeah. - You know, in that concept of, it's a line in the movie, but that concept of time taking everybody out. - Yeah. - You know, shame, I'd be in the field. Like whatever you, you know, time will make the strongest person weak. - Yeah. - And like, is that person, what is their value in that kind of state? - Oh, through. - You know, but Rocky was my dad's like, movie hero. - Yeah. - Oh yeah. - So like that idea for me, I mean, let me make a movie where Rocky's got an overcome something to like, you know, like my, I think my dad would enjoy that right now. - Yeah. - I'm saying, that's how I started. (laughing) - You know, - Well, my dad watched this movie, so it feels better. - Exactly. - Exactly. - It was usually that simple for me bro, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - But then it gets complex. - Sure. - But that was the emotional heart of it. - Yes, sir. - And what about Black Panther? How that comes to you? - Yeah, for that one, man. - That, you know, so that's, so that was a different boy game. Like, like, you know, that was an open assignment essentially. You know, like that, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and she, you had been gone, you know, for a little while. - Yeah. - I think I was like the 18th movie they made. - Yeah. - Um, and did you have to pitch it? I didn't have to pitch it so much. It's like, I mean, kind of like, like, the thing, the thing was was like, everyone in town knew they were making it. And they were talking to us, one of my friends about, about doing it, you know, as a writer, as a director. - Like, like, like, like, like, her name is Ava Durin. - Yeah. - Incredible filmmaker. - Yeah. - Incredible friend. We met, and she like, like, instantly kind of like, became like a big sister for me in the industry. - Yeah. - Kind of like, like, like, look out for me and, you know, advise me in situations and, you know, you know, and she, and she, like, you know, she was, she was being considered for this job, you know, saying, and, you know, like, they mutually, you know, kind of to a decision that they weren't gonna do it together. But, but, but, she was like, hey, why don't you do it, you know, like, you know, she asked me, and I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, I was like, you know, on the spot, I was like, I don't know if I could do that, Ava, you know, like, like, I was finishing up a creed. I didn't think they would ever call me, you know, you know, I'm saying. - Yeah, but it's also like a big responsibility. I guess they all are, but Jesus, I mean, Marvel, - Marvel, at least it's expensive. You know, I'm saying a big, expensive movie, and you don't wanna, you don't wanna fuck it up. You don't wanna do it wrong. And it was also a lot of anxiety around, around, right, making a movie at a place that was that powerful, you know what I'm saying? Like, what do you mean? I mean, like, they, they, they got a way of doing things. - Yeah, okay. - You know, it's a system, the truth and nothing. - Yeah, it's just like the, from the outside looking in, you know, they had a, you know, it seemed like a narrative could be built that, you know, that director might be disposable, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I guess you know what I'm saying. You know, I had a chance to meet with them, and I found like, they were, you know, it didn't fit the narrative that I was outside. You know, I mean, they felt like they would, like they would be people who I could work with, you know. - But also, you know, you had to bring a narrative that hadn't been done. - I mean, I mean, it's interesting, like, because, because, I mean, it's yes and no, right? Like, like, like, the other thing that they may, they may marvel so successful was that they were working with, they were, they, they had it, they disposable, you know, just like decades of intellectual property. - Yeah. - You know, like, like, decades of a built audience in awareness of who these characters are. - Right. - Maybe not in a cinematic space. - Yeah. - But in the narrative space, you know what I mean? Like, like, people with the comics. - Yeah, people know who Iron Man is. - Yeah, yeah. - And what happens to them and what his story is and who he fights, you know what I'm saying? You know, and that's such a, I mean, we've come to learn in the last, you know, last 10, 10, 15 years since 2008. - Yeah. - I would say, which is like, like, was like the big, I would say the big, the big kind of watershed year of kind of movies. And it's kind of like, like the realization that these things were going to be a force. You know, they have a goal mind at that disposal. - Yeah, of stories and creative contributions from really smart people. - Yeah. - So, and you could draw from all that. - You could draw from all of that. - That was the thing I was so interested about. Like, you know, when I, when I agreed to start, you know, to start considering making a movie with them, I said, hey, let me get every black panther comic that was ever written. And it was like, yeah, we'd be right with you. And then boom, you know, I mean, like it's just like mountains of, you know, like they literally, they literally were like, yeah, no problem. - How many was that? - Oh, man, it was big, 'cause I don't like reading things digitally. 'Cause they're first going to send it to me as a PDF. And I end up checking my email, there's some shit like, I'm like, you know, like on a tablet or whatever. So I'm like, oh, give me the physical thing. So I can feel the weight of it. So I can read it like I would have read a comic book on a kid. - Yeah. - No problem. Boom, big ass mind or mark, like, you know, like from 1960s. - Yeah. - And then to yesterday. - Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And seeing who was writing what and how they drew the pictures and what a parent he was and what they interacted with. You know, so you, you know, it wasn't sinners. - Yeah. Well, I'm starting from the complete blank page. You know, who are these people? What are their names? You know, there's none of that. Like, it was like, do you want this character? - Yeah, this was an established mythology, 100% where it's like sinners is a, it's kind of a real mythology. It's a folk mythology. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. - Yeah, 100% bro, like, like, so it ends with that built in knowledge of fan base comes expectations. - Sure. - And then it was crazy, and the success of that company, you know what I'm saying? Now you got expectations at the comics, and now you got expectations of the movies. So it's like exponential, sure, expectation. - But you knew you're making a different movie. - Yeah. - Because all those expectations are there, but you're making a black movie. - Yeah, 100%. - So there's goodwill in an audience that hasn't even been tapped for that other shit. - That's correct. - Yeah, and that's kind of what happened I think. - Yeah. - You know, like, which was good on them, bro, like for being open to it, and honestly, like, something was, or in a slot, you know what I'm saying? Being open to a tag that might open it up to like, to like, to like, untap the folks, like, you know what I mean? And that's international. - Yes, sir. - And then it becomes sort of, again, there's a community incentive. - Yes, sir. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. - Absolutely. - Not wrong, bro. Like, you know what I'm saying? That's also what happened. Like, you know, and that's stuff that we can't, I can't take responsibility for as a filmmaker when people say, hey man, we gonna cite on a scene on the movie. Hey, we gonna buy a theater for a bunch of kids to come see this. Like, I've seen a trailer maybe, you know what I'm saying? - But what's interesting is because, you know, it is a mythical space. These, you know, this is a superhero. - Yeah. - But because of the nature of that, it is essentially a black film that no matter what the experience of black people in globally, in terms of their history, this is something for them. - 100%. - And I would imagine that, you know, that was probably at least 80% a new audience. - I mean, I'm out on a numbers, man. - Yeah, but I'm just saying. - But she like, I think, but it's just so interesting, bro, 'cause I just, I just left, like I said, well, I just left lunch with director Bohn, who we were talking. And like, the Odyssey, yeah. Holland Wolf. - Yeah. - You know, it's smoked like lightning. - Yeah. - Who's that for? - Yeah. - Who's that for? - It's a good question with the blues. Like, but the thing is, it's like 70 to 80 or a white guy. Yeah, but I mean, like, the thing is, it's for who is for sure, but it's also for everybody. - That's right. - You know, you know, like, like, and that for me was like, that for me was what I realized. Like, look, my daddy will watch Rocky 2 and root for Rocky. - Yeah. - My daddy, like a black man from all over California. - Sure. - Right? - Yeah. - Something was happening in the magic of this movie. - Yeah. - That he's rooting for the tie-in door. - Yeah. Like, like, mixing moves. - Yeah, exactly, but, but, but, but, I don't know this year, Rocky. - Yeah. - And I'm a kid. And I'm like, pop, why are you rooting for him? You know, you know, some, actually, this guy looks like you. You know, you know, like, you know, like, why are you, he's an all-man Apollo's the villain. - Yeah. - He's a heel. - And I'm like, I'm like, is he, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I watch the movie, you know what I'm saying? And I'm realizing, okay, yeah, he's, he's, he's, he, he, he's, you know what I'm saying? The camera is with Rocky. - Right, you know what I'm saying? - Your dad grew up in a history of movies. - 100% there was this. - He understood the language. - Sure. - Yeah, he understood the language. - Yeah. - When Apollo Creed is called Rocky out and saying all these things about him, it's like, you know, I even think about who, why, you know what I'm saying? It's like, man, you gotta, you gotta go get this dude, you know what I'm saying? - Well, yeah, but that, but when you open it up and you do Black Panther with the mythological universe that, you know, the good guys and bad guys, everybody's black. - Yeah. (laughing) - 100%. - 100%. - So, so in that sense, yeah. (laughing) - It makes sense on it. - Community level 100%. - You know. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Not Tony, man, Tony. - So, that's also what I grew up with. - Yeah. - You know, that's also what I grew up with. - Yeah, in the movies for everybody, obviously. But the sort of, you know, the world of it was completely unique to a lot of people. - Yeah. - You know, I think both, you know, all kinds of ideas. Like, you know, Black Panther, you know, I've never seen this shit before. And the same thing with the white kids. I've never seen this shit before. (laughing) - It's a perfect storm. - Oh, man. (laughing) - No one had ever seen that shit before. (laughing) - Oh shit. (laughing) - So, we scared? - Terrified. - Yeah. - Yeah, bro. - Yeah, and I had an Irish breakdown I'm making now moving. - Yeah. - Maybe several. - Just give it to yourself. - My wife knew. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Coming home, I'm not fucking. - What the fuck am I doing? - My brother was my assistant, he knew. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like, um, so they knew they helped me, they helped me. - Just those crisis of confidence every day, bro. - Yeah. - I had one of those, I had one of those every day. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, I had some really intense ones, man. - It was brutal, bro. - Yeah. - It was brutal. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And so, in a new film, getting back to what we started with, this world of, you know, blues music and black culture at that time, I thought like, 'cause like, you know, it's a story that, you know, if you have a certain type of mind, you kind of know the story a little bit of some kind. - Yeah. - But you know that, you know, if you're a blues fan, you can know the Crossroads story. - Yes, sure. - And, you know, but you took it a little further up in the history. So now we're, you know, maybe a decade and a half away from Robert Johnson, Charlie Patton. And you know, that hasn't really been explored, but the people in this movie knew that story. - Yes, sure. - Where Charlie Patton's guitar becomes an important thing. - Yes, sure. - And then, you know, the sort of mystery of these twins coming back from Chicago and whatever the fuck they did up there to get this money. And then like, so like, you know, structuring that story, if it came all out of your head, right? You know, to make it compelling to not reveal why they were there or how they, what they did in Chicago. But then the big decision is like, who's the devil going to be? - Yeah. - How are we going to do the devil part? And it was kind of interesting because it wasn't really a devil movie. And it's not really necessarily a vampire movie. You know, it's a movie about the power of the magical power of music and how that, you know, can transcend or interpret or give a voice to pain. - Yes, sure. - But then the human component is, you know, the good and evil of it all becomes sort of, you know, the through line of it. You know, this guy's got a preacher dead. And then he's going to ultimately, you know, choose, I don't want to spoil it for anybody. You know, but like, you know, that was some serious shit he had to go through to still make the choice he made. - Yeah. - 100%. 100%. Like, like, we found that structure too, man. Like, like, like, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I love making this movie. Like, like, I love a period piece. Like, it's great. - I love this movie. - I love everything. - Yeah. - And like, and, and, and, and I felt like I, I felt like I had to earn you. I felt like I had to go through what I went through with my other movies to be able to, to have the ability to, to, to do this. You know, well, it's interesting now because there is a world of black horror. - Oh, yeah. - That, you know, is, it gives a lot of freedom to, to, however you want to do it. - 100%. - You know, like Jordan, you know, he does his thing. - Yeah. - And then beautiful movies. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, and, and, and weird. - Oh, yeah. - You know, 100%. - You know, he's like an abstract thinker. And he's willing to take risks. So, you know, you've got that, you know, there's an audience for it. - Yes, sorry. - Yeah. - Yes, sorry. - So what, you know, what were you saying about loving it about the, what were the challenges? Because it did give you an opportunity to explore, you know, not necessarily, you know, characters that we've known a bit before. And so, like, I guess on some level, when you, you said you were piecing together the story, that, that, the, the idea of music had to go all the way through it. - Yes. - Yeah. - Yeah, like, like, like, salt, back to family, man, I had an uncle. - Yeah. - Who was from Mississippi. - Yeah. - And he was like the oldest man in my family. - Yeah. - The one I was around consistently. - Yeah. - His name was Uncle James. James Edmunds. - Blues music was all he would listen to. - Yeah. - You know, like, that was just, that was his get down. - Yeah. - I mean, like, like, like, and he would, he would come off from work, he would put a Giants game on. - Yeah. - San Francisco Giants baseball game on TV on the radio. And have a blues record going. - Like, which ones? - I mean, all of them. - All of them. - Like, all of them. I mean, his guy was Aubrey King. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - And all like, like, but, but he was listening to all of them. - Yeah, yeah. - And I associated these songs with him, you know what I'm saying? Like, it was a blues, my cup of tea. - Yeah. - And that word has like a connotation that, you know, kind of became associated with all things. - Sure. - And also, like, it didn't feel like it was mine. - I think it also got, I didn't think there was a period there where, you know, in some ways, became white, you know, in terms of, you know, once I think the black community moved away from it for whatever reason, because it represents something old. - Yeah. - All the way, guys, okay. - Well, yeah, like, I mean, this movie, bro, like we could talk for hours, like I didn't realize how deep you are into it. Like, but, but, you know, like, in my research, I've discovered that, you know, and people talk about this all the time. It's not like my discovery. - Right, yeah, right. - Showing people people who speak to this often. - Yeah. - But, but, but, you could make the argument that genre is an invention of racism. - No, you could make the, like, the categorization of different types of music. - Yeah. - Is essentially like a form of segregation. - Oh, interesting. - Like, like, you know, it was, at the time, music was commodified. - Right. - Yeah. - It was a time where it was built on segregation. You know, so, how do I tell people that this music is made by black people? Well, I call it a race record. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And like that, that kind of like, you know, race records became, you know, blues or soul or rhythm and blues, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - And these categorizations. - And then they were eventually appropriated by the white culture. - Appropriated or, you know, or rear appropriated. You know, like, it's really interesting because, you know, the, you know, the main vampire, the devil vampire. - Yeah. - He's appropriating the souls of black people. - Yeah, but you know what I mean? - Yeah, in a way, but also, like, they also appropriating him. Once they, you know what I'm saying? Once they become, you know, like, like, so, so. - Sure, the eternal life bracket. - Yeah, exactly. (laughing) - Exactly, exactly. But, you know, it's, like, no spoilers, but it's also the scene where they sing in his music. - Yeah. And, and, and, and, - Well, can, have it come from there? - Exactly. - And I thought was the whole, it's like, like, for me, when I realized, like, you know, even the narrative, even the narrative, which is, which is true and important, like, you know, I'm saying that that, that blues came from the continent of Africa, so, you know, I'm saying totally accurate. But, but what we recognize as, as Delta blues and American blues, you know, also, it was contributions from the Choctaw community and contributions from the Irish, you know what I mean? - Right. - Contributions from, you know, like, like, it had all of these contributions. - The rhythms changed. - Yes, and, and, and all of these people had, had, had a thing in common. - Yeah. - That they had been stepped on. - Right. - Yeah. - And they had to feel less standing, and come off, you know what I'm saying? Like, that, that idea, for me, when I dove into the research of this music that my uncle loved, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, oh shit, like, like, like, like, this is, this is so profound and, and, and also, like, everything that I ever loved that came out of popular culture came from this directly. Like, like, like, like, I could draw a straight line back to, you know, there was a reason I heard Nirvana and liked it immediately. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's because it's, it's, it's with my uncle, it was right for me. - Yeah. - Well, you know, it's just saying about why people, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah, but it all comes to, yeah, the same, the same source point. - Yeah. - Yeah, I had, I had Taj Mahal in the, in the here once. - Woo! - And, you know, like, because I, you know, there is, you know, there's a through line. He's a, you know, he's a historian, you know, really. And I had this old guitar that it was just an old Sears guitar that I used to have just as, you know, just something to look at. - Yeah, it was strong up, it played right. - Yeah. - And we were talking about, um, skip James. So, oh, you talk about a hard time killing for me. - Yeah, well, I'm talking about, like, the, I don't remember what song was, but skip James, you know. He had, like, some sort of, there was a certain guy's in, and they had a direct sort of, you know, a rhythmic and tonal. - On the continent. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, very, maybe Senegal or somewhat. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's all of that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, like, I'm talking, I'm talking to Tajibah. - They call it Senegalmbiya. - Yeah, yeah. - It's very specific. - Yeah, sorry. - But it made it all the way through, you know, 100%. - Yeah, I mean, I mean, it was, it was not, you know, in a, in a, in a, in a car of a human history, but I was just, it was yesterday. - That's right, you know what I'm saying? - But Taj just picks up, he picks up that old guitar. - Yeah. - Three seconds. - Right away. - Like, you go all the way back. - Yeah. - All the way back to the continent. - Yeah, I was like, oh my god, 100% magic, man. - Yeah, 100%. - So, so you were aware of all that? - I was not, like, I, I mean, he became aware. - Why did the Adagent say that? - And so that was all informing how you were gonna handle this. Now, but, but why twins though? Why do you, why do you, oh, that's so, that's such a great question. So, so, so, so, oh, man, bro. I, I, I show, so, so, it's sort of an inside joke with people who know me. - Yeah. - Because I have my, my, my only phobia is doppelgangers. - Yeah. - It's the only phobia. - It's the weird ones. Super weird when bro, like, like, - Like, it's something that looks like you. - It's the concept of the doppelganger, like, like, the, the, the double that is a harboring or a doom. - Okay. - Yeah, I'm sure. - Like, like, like, and it was, it was extra crazy about these years. My family has a ton of twins. - Uh-huh. - You know, like, my mom has identical twin older sisters. - Yeah. - No, one of them is my godmother. - Yeah. - You know, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, - Or identical twin. - Yeah, they live right next door to each other to this day. - My cousin's my, my uncle James. - Yeah. - His granddaughters are fraternal twins. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And one of them just gave birth to fraternal twins this year. - Wow. - So it's a constant in my family. - Yeah. - But, but yeah, I wanted to deal with the archetypes with this movie. - Yeah. - I wanted it to feel, I wanted it to feel like a blues song. - Yeah. - Like, like, like, something that you've heard before, even though you heard it for the first time. - Yeah. - So I put a lot of archetypes in, in, in, and I was kind of obsessed with this idea of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, gangster identical twins. 'Cause that's like a thing. - Yeah. Like, that exists in a lot of different cultures. You know, you know, like, like, like, like, you know, like, so you got, like, like, mythology. But also in real, in life. - Yeah, I think there was Irish gangsters in Chicago. What is it, Miranda? - Yeah. - They were brothers, right? - It's a ding, bro. - Yeah. - Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, sometimes they just siblings. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But, the great brothers. - The craze, you know, craze, they were twins. - Yeah. - You know, but you got like, you know, you got like, you got like, like, big meets in Southwest T and being a met for the Detroit or, or, and long beach they had, had some guys called the twins. - Yeah. - You know, that came up with Snoop and Warren G. - Yeah. - You hear about them in songs, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - It's a line and, and, and, and, and, and this DJ, a Warren G song. - Yeah. - And that's, that's G funk, right? It's like G funk is super bluesy. - Right. - West Coast hip hop, right? - He got, he got his, his song "Ens" where he says, I still know how to make them "Ens" and if you don't believe me, go ask the twins. - Like, that's how it ends. Like, where he's basically saying, like, I, I'm still in the streets. And if you, if you don't believe me, go ask the twins. Like, they, they even were gangstering me. They, they, they, they'll check my story out, you know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And like, I got to know people from, from other neighborhoods. And if you bring up the twins, every neighborhood has them. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I'm saying where it's like, oh yeah, the twins, I did. Like, you know, like, it's like literally a, it's a thing, a black culture's thing, a white culture, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a thing, like, if you, in a neighborhood, and somebody is lucky enough to be born with a, with a, with a sibling that looks, just like them. - Yeah. - They're gonna automatically have like an advantage. - Yeah. - They come up with celebrities, you know what I'm saying? Like an, they're gonna run tricks on people and get over, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - So, um, so then you just had to balance the morality out like, exactly. - Yeah, like, like, and, and, and, and for that part, I did a lot of research, and, and, and, and, identical twins and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I have, I have two, filmmaker friends that are from Northern California, these white dudes, - Yeah. - They came up in the North Bay. - Yeah. - Um, you know, uh, uh, Noah and Logan Miller. - Okay. - When they filmmakers came up as baseball players first, you know, horror-scrabble guys, you know, saying like, like, like, broke their way and the, how you will, with no, nepotism, no none of that, just all grind. - Yeah. - I mean, yeah. - And, and, and, and they come out like, you know, I would talk to them, and eventually I was like, I got to bring y'all on board officially with this, you know, like, and, and, you know, they became our twin consultants. - Oh, interesting. - And they worked with me and Mike specifically on, you know, what these guys would be like. - Yeah. - Like, look at the time that they came up, you know, like, their backstory, and just the concept of, like, you know, you know, how, how, how, how Noah and Logan describe it, is to them, everybody's weird. - Yeah. - Because, because, like, they look at everybody, everybody selfish, you know, saying everybody's kind of like, out to get them. - Yeah. - And he, he was, he was saying like, when you have a identical twin relationship, it automatically makes you like, hyper-conspiratory. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you used to people staring at you. - Yeah. - Strangers coming up to you, talking to you, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - They asked me you weird questions. - Right. - Um, and it was also, it was a funny time when, when I was talking to them, and I, and I realized, whenever I'm with them in a presence, they always sit right next to each other, or they stand side by side. - Yeah. - And I asked them one day, I said, hey, man, do you guys always do that with people when they say, yeah. And I said, is that for you guys, or is that for us? And I said, it's for you. - You know, they said, as soon as I got a problem with you, it was split up. So you can, and get in a position where you can only look at one of us. So I thought that was so interesting. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I think not effective. - Yeah. - If they're not next to each other, it freaks people out. - That's the other guy. - Exactly. - Which one am I talking to? - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - In that interesting. - Yeah. - And with the concept of growing up like that, and what that does to the side. - It's funny because it was pretty seamless because I didn't, very quickly I wasn't registering to Michael Jordan's. - Yeah. - It worked, you know? - This is performance, man. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's the subtleties, you know? 'Cause it's not, you could go overboard quick, you know? - Yeah. - Right. - But, and that's the thing about, that's the thing about identical twins, if you know them, nine times out of 10, they have completely different personalities. - Sure. - But the differences between them are very subtle. - Right. - Like they're around each other all the fucking times. So like they basically are the same person. - Right. - But like subtly off. - Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But if you ever were to get them alone. - Different. - Well, you know, then the difference is really, then the difference is really come out. - Yeah, and you did that through women. - Yeah, and just through structure. Like, like I'll know in terms of the aspects. - Let me, oh yeah, 100%. Like knowing who they, who they fun love. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Really differentiates, like type of person. - Sure. - And also a lot of pussy eating talk, you know? (laughing) - I didn't realize that would be a through line. (laughing) - Yeah, it is, I mean, it was really, I have fun, man. Like, like, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, um, um, - It's sexy, man. - Yeah, a lot of talk about all that stuff, but that idea of, 'cause what I was trying to feel is like, why are vampires so sexy? You know, it's like, why are they, like, why are they synonymous with sexuality? - Yeah, where are they the sexy monsters? - Why are they the sexy monsters? - Yeah. - You know, saying like, you know, you don't gotta say it's sexy, vampire. - Well, there's an intimacy to it. - Exactly. - And there's also, it's like a marriage. - Yes, sir. - Right? - Yeah. - That's what's so great about it. And the thing is, is like, you know, the vampires synonymous with choice for some reason. You know, like, you have to have to be invited in. You know, where are they bite? They bite the neck. - Yeah. - You know, it sound like it's a sexual situation. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know, I mean, you gotta call us to somebody to do that. You know, with the, with just a weird question, now the pussy eating thing, did you lean on that? Because is it culturally stigmatized? (laughing) - No, man, like honestly, bro, where that came from, is I had big cousins. - Yeah. - I was like the twins. - Yeah. And that's the type of things that we talk about. - Things that we talk about. - And the whole thing was like, he's, you know, he's, he's out, his dad's a preacher. - Yeah. - Yeah. - He got a bunch of little sisters. So what are his cousins, what are his, what's the kind of, what's the kind of, she his other cousins are gonna tell him about? Like, sure, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And, and, and, and smoke the whole idea behind him and his performance was that he's like a grandpa. - Yeah. - You know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, he's the caretaking twin. - Right. - Yeah. - The, the, the other twin is a pimple. - Right. - He's like a, he's like hypersexualized. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you ever meet those guys, like what makes, what makes those guys those guys is, they, they, they come out, have a hyper understanding of what the world is like from a female perspective. - Uh-huh. That's how they are able to convince women to do crazy shit for you. - Yeah, sure, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, so the hard, the hard idea was he would give him like very usable, accurate advice, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, for that type, for that type of situation. - Yeah. - That's where the, that's where the idea came from. - Yeah. - Well, I think the whole thing works really, really well. And I thought that the vampires were sufficiently creepy. That's good, man. (laughing) And I don't want to spoil the, the beat at the end, you know, even during the credits, but okay, so you, it's a, well, because people who like the blues are gonna be excited by it. But, who, did, did he play that last bit? - He did. - That's him on the guitar? - That's him. - On that last song? - The very end. - Yeah, that's him. - Holy shit. Because, you know, I've seen him a few times. I've had him in here. I was just playing with his fucking pick yesterday. (laughing) Right there. - Yeah, that's him, bro. - Yeah, that's him of course, the, yeah. - Yeah. - Oh my God. - Who's on that electric weed? - On a, on a electric, okay, so that is, so that is Eric Gills. - Phew. - Yeah, and also Kingfish. - Oh yeah, just, I just met Kingfish. - Kingfish in the, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah, I saw him, yeah. - Seeing, but but that's Eric Gills, you listen to there. - Yeah, oh wow. - But that last scene, who are you asking him about? - Yeah, yeah, oh good. - Oh, just me, that's him. - He's great. - He's weird, he's weird seeing him play that, right? - Yeah, yeah. - Well, you know, they all started there. - 100%. (laughing) - But like he, you know, as he's gotten older, he's become more of a showman than his licks are different, you know what I mean? He'll just pop a couple off and then he'll just smile. - Yeah, that's it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, well it's great talking to you, man. It's a good, like, wow, I brought you. - Yeah, yeah, bro, I hope it does well for you. - I appreciate that, man. (upbeat music) - There you go, folks. Again, sinners, opens and theaters this Friday. Hang out for a minute. All right, people, we've got another ask mark, anything episode for full Marin subscribers dropping tomorrow. These are bonus episodes where I answer the questions sent in by you, like this one. As you prepare to direct your film, what personal challenges do you anticipate facing? How do you plan to tackle them? Anxiety and impatience. I think the biggest challenge is going to be to afford myself the confidence and space to know when a take is done, to know when a set is set up, to know what I'm looking for, and not to be freaked out all the time. Just to realize that I've put a good team together and hopefully I will, to afford me the space necessary to just focus on directing the film. Get the new Ask Mark Anything episode tomorrow. Sign up for the full Marin. Go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by A Cast. Here's some classic Mark Marin guitar noodling. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Boomer lives in Monkey, Mufanda, Caddings is everywhere. And that was fucking take two man. (upbeat music)