Episode 16: Unlaced with Jackie Wong

[MUSIC] Hello and welcome to Unlaced with Chalk & Bates. I'm Madison Chalk. And I'm Evan Bates. And we're Olympic Ice Dancers for Team USA. If you're into sports betting, bet on mine is the fastest and easiest way to bet all your favorite sports. Head to their new updated desktop or mobile website to sign up today and receive your 50% welcome bonus on your first deposit. Just use our promo code Believe50 to receive your bonus. Welcome to another episode of Unlaced with Chalk & Bates. We have a special episode this week as it's not just the two of us today. We have a guest with us. We do. It's a very special occasion. Today we have someone who the Wall Street Journal calls the most trusted name in figure skating. His single name, Monica, is becoming just as recognizable as the likes of Yuzu, Nathan, and Michelle. And he's here today to help us learn more about our own sport. We're so pleased to welcome Jackie Wong of rocker skating or simply Jackie to those in the skating world. Well, that's just way too much way too much of introduction. But we didn't even include Jeopardy. If you visit Twitter, you'll see. He was on Jeopardy and he was fantastic. Just getting to Jeopardy, I feel like is a huge victory. And they dubbed you a skating analyst. So it's official. Yes. If Jeopardy says so, it is official. It's official. Thank you so much for joining us today with the Olympics upon us. Maybe a great opportunity to put out an educational episode for people who want to understand more about figure skating. Sounds great. I mean, thanks for having me. I mean, I think there's so much that we can talk about today. But I am sure you've got a good agenda for us to talk about. Yeah, we have a couple of points we want to talk to you about with you. Because we know we could just dive off the deep end and really get into figure skating all the nitty gritty. But anyways, we thought who better to talk about skating with than the consultant himself. So can we start with an introduction for our new listeners of who you are, how your multiple degrees from Stanford and Wharton prepared you to become the most trusted name in figure skating? To be honest, I don't think any of those degrees did anything to help me become what I am with figure skating. Your contentured, but. Degree didn't help? No, actually, well, I mean, it's all helped in different ways. I mean, architecture has actually helped me to kind of design my brand and all that kind of stuff. It's coming in different ways. But Jackie Wong, I am a guest of figure skating analyst. Some would call me a rogue blogger. Some would call me the guy who tweets. All I do is cover figure skating competitions. I started this thing 11 years ago, not really knowing where it would go. Here I am, talking to the two of you. Having convinced somehow a lot of people that I'm actually decent at what I'm doing. I think we all know that you're the real deal. Based on this ability to call in real time, play by play, predict scores, run multiple events at the same time. How do you develop a skill set like that? Because it's unique. I don't know anybody in our sport who's like you. It's a lot of repetition. I do remember back in, I don't know, the early 2000s when I was at Stanford for my undergrad. I remember at that point I was doing a lot of skating like collegially, intercollegedly, if you will. I got into actually watching figure skating competitions. I go to competitions that the San Jose ranked, run by Peninsula Figure Skating Club. At that point, the internet was all about forums and message boards and stuff that was figure skating message boards. There are people who would go to things and report back on what people did and practices or in competition. I remember emulating that. I'd have my note pat out and I'd jot down what people did. When I then fast forward eight years, I decided to get on Twitter after starting to write about figure skating. I was like, what could I do that would sort of bring something different than what I've seen online on Twitter and on news platforms. I was like, how do you cover figure skating? I just started covering it by literally just being like, this is what happened just now. In a program. These are the facts of what happened just now in the program. Here are the scores and you can have it in real time as opposed to waiting 30 minutes, half an hour or an hour, two hours for some associated press article to come out that says such and such scored 28.5 points. It's like, okay, well, that doesn't really matter to me anymore as a figure skating fan because it's over. I as a figure skating fan want to know what just happened. Why did it happen? And what are the implications of that for the rest of the competition? And so I just kind of followed that, I guess, guiding light of what can I bring that's a little bit different. With a lot of repetition, I've been tweeting a lot for the last 10 years. With a lot of repetition, a lot of pattern recognition, I am able to do things like, tweet three different things all at once because after a while, especially because I used to skate. Like, I know jump patterns, I know where things are going to go. So like, if something is happening, I will focus my eyes on that screen. And then once it's done, I can focus my eyes on something else. And so the multitasking comes with both the experience of having done so much tweeting for the last 10 years and also the experiences being a figure skater myself and knowing what things are going to happen when because I know program patterns. And of course, you're many degrees. I have to play a part. I have to know as I task when you're at university. When impresses me the most is like when you do practice reports, there will be like six skaters on the ice and you'll be able to account for every single jump that all six skaters did. And I'm like, how many eyeballs do you have? Like, that's not like I always look to you whenever there's an event or even when we're at the event, I'm like, what did Jackie say? I wanted to think of this performance because like I myself when I watch freestyle, I miss jump sometimes. Like, I'm like, oh, what was that? Was it a toe? Was it a flip? I didn't really look at the entry and I'm like, well, Jackie will tell me. So it's super helpful for not only the skating fans, but the skaters, especially ice dancers, such as us. Well, thank you so much. I mean, I was, I go back to when I was like 13 or 14 and then like doing hours and hours of Mavis teaches typing and getting my 110 words per minute record on my computer game. So I think that's where it comes from too. So if people follow you during the games, what can they find on your page? And can you help them understand some of the figure skating jargon that we're used to seeing? But even some of it, I find on your page like the carrots, the double carrots, the, you are, I know those are under rotations, but yeah, people might see those in your tweets. Can you just explain a little bit of what the jargon is? So there are generally a few things that you would see in my Twitter. One is puns. Two is gifts. Three is, yeah, three is what I would, you know, what I would call my real play by play, which is after every, especially freestyle program, I will put out what somebody did and what the scores are, depending on the occasion, especially if it's like the final group or final two groups, I will put out what they did, sort of a very quick analysis of what happened and what the implications might be and then put out the scores. And your point on like the jargon, usually what happens, it's, it's, it's generally jumps. And you know, when you get a pair skating, you'll actually see a couple other things like lifts and, or not lifts twists and, and throws. I have not gotten proficient enough to call lifts quite yet because that's a, a, a, a, a whole different thing on itself. But, you know, that, those are the types of things, but, you know, you will, you'll see kind of the same types of things, right? But the, the number of rotations on a jump, the jump name, and then any sort of like, uh, things about the jump that happened, like if there's a hand down, if there's a foot down, if there's a step out, if there's a, if there's a fall, and then the, the even more sort of esoteric things, like, um, I will put you are for under rotation as opposed to one, um, I. I. minus or less than sign, which is usually what it is called in the protocol sheets. And then two less than sign means that it is a downgrade. And so that gives you a sense of how fully rotated those jumps are based on, you know, kind of real time calls that I see. And you'll often see question marks because I am not always absolutely 100% certain whether or not that is the case. And those question marks will usually mean that the judging panel would be reviewing those jumps as well. Right. And you don't have a new thing this year. I don't have anyone. You do it in real time. Especially of a, yeah, everything, everything is eyes. And frankly, everything is eyes. And also what I've realized from what I, the way that I call is the sort of, I guess, body motions of somebody who's jumping. Right. So as a skater, I, I knew often when I would under rotate or especially downgrade something because of the way that I land in the way that my, especially my hips react to the way that I land. And oftentimes when you see stuff like that, you don't even have to look at the hook of the jump. You can, you can just tell that there's probably something there and that they will probably get reviewed. Super impressive. Wow. Good to know. I'll look at the hips. There's so much, there's so much knowledge there like that's just, it's so skillful. What you do, it's really impressive. We thought maybe it would be nice for new viewers and new fans of figure skating to have some maybe context for scores. They might see it the Olympics. So, you know, you as an encyclopedia of figure skating, maybe would be the person to ask like, what's a good, what's a good score for say a men's long program? If, if you kind of boil it up, the, the rules of thumb that I usually would think about are 200 and 260. And so if it's, if it's women's, pairs and dance, a total score of 200 would probably put you somewhere in the top eight at the Olympics. 200 above obviously and a total score of 260 and above would probably get you in the top eight or so at the Olympics. Obviously, it depends on what happens during that day and you know, what mistakes or what clean programs people do. But that those would be what you would call good scores. If you break it down, you know, the, that, right, like the, the 200 and 260, you'd usually see something like a one third to two third ratio of scores there. So, for the men, it's, you know, 90 to 100 would be a good score for a short program. And then, you know, if you take out the, the 260, right, then you're talking about a 160 or so for, for a free skate. And then, you know, same thing with, you know, the women, it's like if you're, if you're 75 to 80, that's a pretty good score. And then if you're like 130-ish or so, that's a, that's a pretty good score. You know, that, that, that all changes based on how, how everybody's doing. As you all know, you know, with, with dance, it's that 80 to 85 mark would give, get you a pretty good score. And then, the 120-ish mark would get you a pretty good score, right? Like that, that's usually the breakdown. Nice. That's, that's super helpful. That's such a nice little hack, like that pairs, women and dance kind of all fall around that 200 mark. Mm-hmm. And then men for, yeah, and 260, like, to a casual viewer, I feel like that's a great little. Mm-hmm. Very good base to know. Tip to just, yeah, have some context. Absolutely. So elegant, Jackie. Well, like we said earlier, you are known to call pretty much every event. Sometimes you call two events at, at once, or multiple events at the same time, like you recently did with the US Championship and the Canadian Championship. And, but when it comes to ice dance, sometimes you're just post after the event. And we were just wondering, well, you have been doing more commentary lately for ice dance. But do you feel like dance is not much? I do. Yeah, dance isn't quite as much of your forte. And is there anything that we can do to help you call the dance in real time? Because I know our rules are different and maybe not as clear cut as it is to call a jump. What I'll say is, I tried not to put anything out there that I had, I don't 100% believe in, or at least 95% believe it, right? Obviously, there are times when I'm like, did I actually get that one, right? And for me, as a freestyle skater, dance has always been the one that takes me more concentration to get to something that I could be like, yes, I can say something intelligent and also generally truthful, right? Like as sort of accurate, factual as I can. And for dance, it just requires that much more concentration. And frankly, for me, it is easier when you are in person actually being able to see stuff as opposed to being on a live stream, right? It's easier to be able to see the nuances with not just whether or not people are hitting the edges right or hitting the turns right or not hopping their turns or that kind of stuff, but also just the overall depth and power of everything. It just doesn't translate nearly as well on a live stream as it does in person. So it is one of the reasons why I don't tend to call it dance as much during the season if I'm being absolutely honest with you. It is one of the reasons is also just being able to actually take a little bit of a break. We understand. And knowing that it's not necessarily my forte and there are probably other better sources out there to do that, I take a bit of a backseat. That is to say, I have, when a world comes or when an Olympics comes, I brush up on things a lot more and I tend to do a little bit more as things happen live at a world or at an Olympics. I gave myself a crash course on the key points on the midnight blues pattern a couple months ago and got some other pointers from other ice dancers just to figure out what it is that I should be talking about. And so, you know, is that kind of preparation that is a little bit different for me going into ice dance. And to be honest with you, like having done solo dance for a few years when I was doing a trickle-eggit, the amount of respect I have for ice dancers is just like, I don't know how you all do it really. Lots of. Well, thank you. Lots of training. I saw a tweet from you from this championship set was like, you were sitting with Charlie White watching dance and then you said, every time I watched dance, I'm reminded that I should watch more dance. And he was like, I told you so. Yeah. Basically, yeah. I mean, the US nationals really top 10 was just so phenomenal. I just, it was beyond my expectations when I watched it. That's awesome. That's nice to hear. Yeah, we're very proud of our sport. It's. US ice dance is strong. It's very strong. I feel this deep. So, yeah, just one more question. You know, Twitter is an amazing tool, but also can be a place where people can be pretty harsh and pretty critical. You as someone who's very active on Twitter, someone who puts your opinion out there a lot. And, you know, in a sport that's very subjective, how do you navigate that? Do you have to deal with a bunch of trolls? What is that experience like for you in that space? Trolls left and right, for sure. I would say. No, I would say the vast majority of my interactions are positive, slash informative and educational, I guess. People will tweet at me to ask questions about things that they are genuinely curious about. And I will do my best to reply to tweets is just when you're multitasking eight things at once, sometimes it doesn't happen. But, you know, I have learned to use the mute button very well. I'm done. I think, yeah, sometimes it's just. You can't please everyone. And there are going to be plenty of people who look at me as an American and we'll say, "I am biased toward American skaters." And, you know, think they have the receipts to show for it. And. No, we know it's not true. Everyone be nice to Jackie. has protected all of us. He's a national treasure. (laughing) An international treasure. He does so much for this sport. - You really do, though. - Yeah, you do so much. - Hey, look, you can't do anything about it. Yeah, but you can't do anything about it. It's, you know, people will have their opinions and they will ascribe you as one thing and never change their minds about it. And so that's where the moot butt comes in. (laughing) So, you know, it does do troll messages bother me. It obviously does. It's just human nature to be, to want to be able to be like, yeah, what I am doing, I believe in. And somebody tells me they don't believe in it. And, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you second guess yourself a little bit. And then somebody, you know, throws hateful things at you. You, you have to take it and figure out how to compartmentalize it. So that's kind of how it works. - You seem to have a really good perspective on that. And we just, we really appreciate you and what you've offered our sport. And I think in the coming Olympic Games, hopefully new viewers can use you as a resource as we all do in the skating world. So where can people find you? And I know you've got some awesome pins and some merch for sale. Can you talk a little bit about the rocker skating brand? - Yeah, of course. Find me on Twitter @rockerskating on Instagram @rockerskating. And my website is rockerskating.com. As you said there, I have some merch for sale. It's, you know, it's hopefully fun for people who want to support what I do in some way. I, you know, I try to put stuff out there as, as openly as possible. Like I don't believe in pay walls for what I do. I don't believe in having to have a subscription for the stuff that I put out there. It's, you know, somebody's gonna copy and paste it and send it out anyways. So it's like why have people pay for it, right? But, you know, every little bit of support counts, there's merchandise, there's Olympics only limited edition pins that I've made for this year. - Those are good ones. - I said that's on, yeah. - I haven't seen the answer. - That's on sale @rockerskating.com. I will bring plenty to Beijing. Trust me on that one. - Awesome. Thank you so much. And we hope you get some rest and recovery before the games begin. - Thank you so much for your time for everything you do and we'll see you in Beijing. - Yeah, see you there. Thanks for having me. - This has been an episode of Unlaced with Chalkin Bates. Make sure you subscribe for future episodes. You can follow us on social media @chalkbates. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. - Bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)