(upbeat music) Hello, my name is Daniel Fisher, a rich nation manager at Elbatable, and this is developing carbon stories. A podcast about the project developers creating the most innovative and impactful carbon projects in the world. Developing carbon stories is a podcast by Elbatable, an intelligence and procurement platform for the voluntary carbon market. In each episode, we speak with an entrepreneur from a different part of carbon ecosystem and talk about their journey so far and how their contributes to the fight against climate change. In series three of the podcasts, we're taking a focused look at the importance of nature-based solutions and their special ability to combat climate change while providing a host of additional co-benefits. In this episode, we speak with Lili Rodriguez, a Peruvian herbologist and biodiversity expert, and one of the founders of Peru's Center for the Conservation, Research and Management of Natural Areas, for Seema for short. Lili and I discuss how she helped establish Peru's Cordillera Azul National Park and how Red Plus provides the funding to help prevent deforestation within the park and its buffer zone. We also explore Lili's passion for biodiversity and forest conservation, which was hugely influenced by a special encounter with an indigenous group deep in the forest. We hope you enjoyed this episode. (upbeat music) - Hi, Lili. It's great to have you here. It's a pleasure to be speaking to you again since we last met in Lima. And so before we dive into the questions and the conversation that we're about to have, it'll be awesome if you could just maybe quickly introduce yourself to the people listening, who you are, where you're calling from, and yeah, just anything else you wanna say before we dive in. - Okay, thank you. I'm Lili Rodriguez. I'm one of the founders of the Center for Conservation, Research, Management of Natural Areas, Seema Cordillera Azul, biologists by training, and ecologists from the University of Paris. I have been working in conservation in Peru since '79. So it's a long, long time in the field, but also a little bit in the policies. I have been working a lot on the biodiversity convention, and then the management of the national parks or protected areas in Peru. I was in the creation of the law. We have in Peru for protected areas, and the National Plan for Protected Areas. And after that, I start this adventure with Cordillera Azul. - Quite a history and a way to get to Seema to Cordillera Azul. And so I guess let's go back again. And I'd love to know sort of what really got you interested in ecology, in being a biologist, in the first place, before you went to university and before Seema. - I don't know, my father was from the rainforest. My father was from Lamas. So I guess although we never visited the rainforest, I had been listening to all of these stories and I had been inspired also by this lady, British. I can't remember the name, but she's the one who was very famous studying chimpanzees in Africa. - Dr. Jane Goodall, I believe, is the doctor. Yeah, that's perfect. - And that inspired me to go into biology. - And then throughout your research and your work, you then obviously help set up Seema. What made you do this? Why did you want to found this association? - Well, it was to actually be able to run this national park and to be able to implement the new law we have been working for years on preparation. So it was to implement what we have been talking about with different groups, anthropologists, sociologists, managers and all the people working in protected areas for many years. And so it was very exciting to have this opportunity to start from zero to implement this new set of rules for protected areas. - Yeah, no, okay, fantastic. And then, I guess, it's very complex and along a whole lot of years have gone into working on it. But can you quickly explain this law that you helped to create and then obviously what brought around Seema? - That, that, so this was a GICEP project with the government of Peru to establish the national plan for protected areas or the whole system of protected areas. And then this was converted into the national law for protected areas. So this includes topics as how you select the areas. So there was like a pre-selection of where to establish new and how to accommodate those existing already, what the work will be with people living inside protected areas, how to manage natural resources, how to work on the buffer zone, how to do research, how to do tourism and all other activities that are allowed inside protected areas and how to report on the management. That was the, and that's all in the, in the law. And this was made with different groups of specialists that we had to discuss the different topics. - Okay, fascinating. It's a hard work, I suspect. (laughs) - Yeah. - And so. - I'd love to. - Let me say one more thing because we were also discussing how to fund protected areas. And it was at the time when the national pro-NAMP was established a little bit later than that. But that was part of the discussion also how to manage protected areas. And so there was, there was no this red idea yet, but also at the moment the discussion was on how the private sector or other sectors could participate in the implementation of protected areas because in the '90s, an up until the 2000s, there was not enough funding from the government for protected areas. And there was no national office for protected areas. Not national ministries for environment. - Yes. And I think, you know, in a few minutes time we'll come into the voluntary carbon market. And we will talk about how that has had an effect on projects and on a wider conservation level. But before we go to that, I would love to discuss Cordilla Azul National Park in a bit more detail. And of course, you've been very close to it. You've been in the park for many years now and probably know best than anyone else. So, could you please just, I guess, explain the park, describe the park? And I know that, you know, I'm here in London and for other people in sort of, especially Europe, it is a million miles away, both geographically, but also we can't conceptualize it very well. So I'd love it if you could try and, you know, bring it to life, tell the people listening, you know, what it's really like in the national park in the Red Plus project. And of course, what it is doing as well. Well, here Azul is like a branch of the main Cordillera of the Andes. So it's not very high. It goes up to 2600 meters. It's all covered with forest. It's about 300 kilometers long and about 90 kilometers wide. So it's quite big. It's one and a half million hectares. And it's a lot of mountains. Very interesting geography because this was under the sea. 35 or 40 million years ago. So the geology is very exciting. And so we have different types of formations. The north, we call the Condorcito because it has the shape of a little condor with a tail, chest, and the head. And the head is the oldest part of the park. So you can see like little the poise as a formation. And then big, big, big TV and formations we call these are upset plateau that have been racing. And so there is a lot of, or there are some mines of salt. But there is also a lot of fossils, see if it's fossils. That's more or less the context. Of course, this is covered by Amazonian founder and Flora about 3000 species of trees. Many amphibians reptile over 600 or maybe now 700 species of birds and about 12 monkeys. - It's amazing. And of course, the park is trying to protect this region. Correct. So how is it implementing to do that? Like what are the key factors that were required to basically be successful in protecting this as you've mentioned, this unique ecosystem? - When the park was established, it is stated the objectives of the park. And it's kind of interesting to know that this is one of the very few, maybe the only park in Peru that has not only in the objectives of establishment, not only the biodiversity park, but also it includes the good management of resources around the park. So this includes the people living outside the park in the buffer zone. And to establish a park from zero ground, you have to think about what will be the best way is to conserve the integrity of the park. And to do that, we have been setting up the limits of the park and around the park, 22 park our stations. And then with the people living around the park, we recognize all the entrances they had that was made in 2002. The first at the very beginning of the management. And in every trail we established some signs so that people know where the park is. And these signs were made by the local people and they carried the signs and they established the signs. So it was made in a very participatory way. And this is like the bottom line for all the management of the park. So we have been working since then with most of the little towns that are around the park in the Wajaga Valley and in the Uka Yali Valley too. - Okay, amazing. And you touched on it just then, but as you know, this is a very complex situation, but can you just really quickly explain what the buffer zone is just for those who might not understand? Well, the buffer zone is the zone around the park. In this case, in Peru, the buffer zone has an official recognition. That must, that says that if you have a project in the buffer zone, if you, meaning, government has, you know, the regional or local governments have a big project like for infrastructure or other culture or whatever, they have to request the permission of the park authority. So, Sarnam, not us. We have a contract with the government to run the park, but in the buffer zone, all the projects like roads and projects on agriculture are asked have to request the permit from the government or the agreement that it is okay and within the damage the park. So, in the buffer zone, which is 2.3 million hectares, so it's about double the zone of the park. There is a lot of space, but a lot of people too. - Yeah. - And just staying, I say, staying in the park. What have you seen currently and previously as the main challenges that you've faced when, well, in the last sort of 20 years of this work at this park? - Well, the most challenging thing is that people keep coming. There is a lot of migration from other regions, especially from the northern part of Peru, migration from the highlands to the lowlands. That means that people that are arriving to the area don't know very well the resources, how to use them and they come with their own system. Our cultural systems, mainly, in when we started the park, this area in the Wayaga Valley, which is the more challenging one, had, there is a road all the way down along the park. There is also, there was also the shining path and another terrorist group. And there was also the coca illegal coca plantations. And so, that was very challenging. We started working with the people closest to the park, with, we established what we call the critical areas, where we have to work harder to stop the forestation that they didn't go inside the park. And then we had to start working on how to improve the quality of life of people on how to stabilize the agricultural frontier. So, that has been the more challenging and it remains. There has been a lot of work by the government to stop the terrorists, it was finished in 2012, more or less, and also there has been a lot of work to replace coca by coca plantations or coffee and other crops. And so, that we think we have also contributed because we were funded by USAID. And so, we also contributed to the pacification peaceful in the area. - Okay. - And, you know, I think that takes me to the next question. What do you think is the main achievement of the park or the greatest successes it's had in your opinion? - I think that up until very recently, there was no problem with the park. And in general, still, there is no problem with the park. So, that's one of the main achievements of the management of Corgiere Azul National Park that most people are in agreement with the establishment, the existence of the park. And the area was not so much used by local people. So, that's one of the reasons. And the other thing is that so far, there has been almost no deforestation inside the park. I will say those are the main achievements. And we are working hard with the regional governments and the local governments, and especially with all the local communities around the park. But we cannot work about the. With all the communities, because there are way too many. So, we work with those that are closest to the park. It's the problem, because it has doubled the number in the 20 years of management. And so, we start with a set of communities to work with about 50. Now, we are in about 120, but the communities are now in total more than 250 or something. Gosh, so you got your hands full. And so, I'd love to now talk about the funding and the voluntary carbon market. But I'm going to have to ask, because when I was there last time in Lima and visiting some projects, I unfortunately, I couldn't come and see, could it was all, I could see it from the distance. So, as far as I've got so far, but when I met you, you said you have a very specific favorite point in the park. Is that right? Is it one of the checkpoints? Well, that's Chambirillo, which is one of the accessible areas by foot. Okay. Where you can go and there is a view all the way down the Amazon. Yeah, this is quite amazing place. Okay, fantastic. Yeah, I'll try and do it the one day. Next time you come. Thank you very much. I'll take you up in the offer. So, you mentioned a minute ago that, you know, in the 1990s, the funding from the government and the funding that the park was able to receive really wasn't enough. And so, you had to look towards the private sector and, you know, try and find different ways of have this funding. And so, you know, I guess not then, but a little bit later on, the Red+ project was created and the voluntary carbon market, somewhat helped that funding. And so, you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the voluntary carbon market and how it is impacted, called de la Rosal, and how you think that it will continue to affect it. Both, you know, positives, negatives, everything, you know, it's just that it's a big topic. And, you know, you've been in the center of it for nearly 20 years. So, yeah, we really interested to hear your thoughts on how the voluntary carbon market has played a role in de la Rosal. Yeah, well, when we made the agreement with the government to run the park in 2008, the official contract we had, we need to design how we will get the financing for 20 years. And so, at the moment, it was the very beginning of red. And we made this project thinking that there will be money from a red project, that there will be people, and right at the beginning of the design of the project, there was already involvement of some oil companies that were already willing to invest in the making of the project. So, since the beginning, we had this hope, but there was no certainty that people will buy the credits. And this wasn't reality. So, the project was finished in 2012. And then, in 2014, we made a loan with Altilia that helped us for about four years, but the carbon market was very low at the moment, and the price and everything. And it wasn't until 2019, when we could really do the big sale, the big sales of the carbon credits. And then, we could refund the park. And those are the funds we are using up to now. And also, then we had a new big sale with another oil company. And then, we have established a trust fund for the park. So, it's very important, the contribution. I know there is a lot of critics to the red projects from the methodology, from the impact, from everything, every call, however, I will say that we can ensure the conservation of Coruillera School National Park because we have been successful in the red project. And that is important and can be seen in the documents that you have in Vera in the web page. But also, we see that the government is quite pleased with that because the government is now trying to do the same with other protected areas in Coruillera. So, from that point of view, or from the financial point of view, I think that it is a very successful project and it's a good strategy to have this contribution from the private sector. - Interesting. Yes, you mentioned it. And it was going to be something else I mentioned. The negative criticism media that has come in the last 18 months has been particularly targeted on Red Plus and particularly damaging towards Red Plus and the market. And I think from my perspective and from where I'm sitting, it is incredibly difficult when you read these articles and it was hurtful and I'm over here. And so I can only imagine what it must be like. If you've been working for 20 years and you have created this incredible area and not only that, you have the results to prove it. You have the, you know, the fauna, the flora, the lack of deforestation. And how do you feel when you see these articles? I mean, I'm sorry if that's a direct question, but yeah, what are your thoughts on them? - Well, it's very painful for me personally, for several reasons. One is that people don't know how much effort it is to run a national park and it's not only us, it's also all the parkards, all the local people participating and it's like a very silent work we have been doing. That is one thing. It's not very easy and people don't know about the benefits and the positive things of the project. People have heard only the negative part or the negative stories that are not necessarily true. That's one thing. The other thing is that from the social point of view, you know, there has been a lot of protest about the project because the beneficiary and people don't know that when we made the contract with the government and when we made this project, it was made to run the park and have the sufficient money to pay for the payroll of all the people, for all the work that has to be made around the park. This is not known and people don't think it and ask where is the money and the money is in a trust fund and the money is being used in the national park and the money is distributed according to the contract we had with the government that was signed. In 2008, when nobody had the certainty that there will be the money, now that there is the money, everyone wants to share. We are doing our best to share and we have been sharing all the way since 2008. We have been sharing the money that comes to us to run the park. But it's a different vision on how you measure benefits. So that's one part, the beneficiary. But the other part is think that we have been working on a projection for 10 years. We have been using now this project, these projections for over 12 years. This means that the way to calculate was not correct probably and now Vera is changing the methodology and using only five years. Okay, but think that when we made the project back in 2008, it was the way to calculate. So it's sometimes something people very easily can use some ideas to criticize what is known today. But don't think about how was the context at the moment that the project was designed. So there are different ages to the pro. And also one more thing is that I have been working with indigenous people for years, for years because I had an encounter with the first contact in 1985 in Manu National Park. That touched me enormously. That was, I mean, you have no idea what an experience that could be. So to me, personal, it's very, very hard to listen to all the protests about indigenous people. - Yeah, no, thank you. That's, I think that's very important for people to hear because for a few reasons, because investors or corporates who are just coming into the market, they look at project types and they see red plus and red plus is often seen as a one shoe fits all or just as a methodology. But what is you need to go and see and do due diligence to know that not one red project is the same. Each one is very unique. Each one has its own challenges. Each one has its own communities and each one has to be different to succeed. And I think that is the challenge when people just see an ID number and they don't look a deeper and they see, these are the trees, the actual people, the actual lives that are one at stake, but also the people who are tirelessly working to actually try and run these operations. And so it's also, I think, worth pointing out that we've been sort of banging the drum for many years now that places like Koduru Zool and your red plus project was one of the first red plus projects, which means you are one of the pioneers and you've already said it a few times, but you took that risk to do this. And in doing so, you created, you helped create the market that we have now. And so it is not fair for you to be penalized on using the best scientific data that you had when you started the park. And so we will continue to beat that drum, 'cause I think it's important that people realize that if the work that goes into this. - Yeah, for us, it's very interesting. It's always nice and we are ready to take every challenge. Some of the new challenges are overwhelming because it was not previously told that we will have these challenges, but we keep working in Korea as well. - So I guess stepping out a little bit, what would you say the role that red plus has in the future of the carbon, a voluntary carbon market? Because as we've said, there's been no criticism and people may be prefer other types of projects, other methodologies, but yeah, do you, I mean, it's a double-edged question really. What do you think of the role of red pluses in the voluntary carbon market? But also, what is the role of red plus in fighting climate change? Because it's the same question, right? - Yeah, well, sometimes it's hard to understand how you can really protect forest or work in these types of projects. And to me, it has to be coupled with other strategies for those buying the credits, the carbon credits, they of course have to reduce their emissions, they of course have to do better. But think on the other side on how we use the money and how we really stop the forestation, how we really benefit the people around the park and all of that. And so for instance, the legislation that is still not completely in place, it's true, but the government is also very much into red projects and it's in the national law that it will continue to be there and through will allow more of these projects. So I hope that in the context, in the international context at the moment where there is so much criticism where some of the buyers are attracting themselves because there are so many critics. And maybe people have to understand that there is no perfect solutions. - It's as if you can read my notes, Lily, because you keep preempting my questions. But I was going to take a little bit of a larger scale picture now and talk about Peru because we are available have recently released an investment attractiveness index that rates countries on how attractive they are from external investment. Peru scored very highly. In fact, I think it was third. And so this shows that it is fostering an environment whereby projects can grow and investment can come in, which is amazing. And it's just what you are seeing as well. I mean, you've mentioned it already, but with Article 6 coming into play, of course, no one quite knows how that will work. But do you think there is a good opportunity for people to invest in Peru from external perspective? - Well, let me tell you that I think that because there are several successful projects, red projects in Peru, that has also contributed to both like people are willing to invest in Peru and the government is ready to allow more projects. My question is, how is the government going to do with the NDC? This is the, to me, the difficult part, we had a meeting with the government with the ministry a couple of weeks ago and I asked them and they were like, we are still thinking. But in general, I think that Peru will be okay. There is a group of projects or all these indigenous people are also trying to establish their own type of projects. And I think that will be wonderful to also have these as they have a lot of territories. - Now, I'm actually gonna go back a little bit and you don't have to answer this question 'cause it sounds like it was a quite a personal experience. But I'd actually love to hear a bit more about your encounter with this indigenous community group and how it led you to actually some of the work that you've been doing. So I think that sounds quite important and I personally would love to hear a bit more about that if you're willing to talk about it. - Yeah, well, this was my first three for my PhD dissertation. And I was not aware of this potential encounter with a first encounter. This was people that have migrated from the area that Shell was doing with Croatian outside Manu National Park. They came into the park. And well, this is a long story, but to make it short, they landed in the border of Caucaccio biological station where I was doing my research. It was quite amazing. For me, this changed completely because I had been working before in the rainforest, but it changed me the idea of how the forest contained also this population of indigenous people that have a life like the beginning of the history. And this made me understand that it's also difficult for government to have these so different populations. They exist until now in the border of Corierasul too. And we have Lima that is like any big city in the world. And so for me, when I went back to Paris, I wanted to study at topology. And I started in '86 to start a little bit of atopology then I went back to biology. But yeah, this changed completely my way of thinking about the rainforest and I have been working 2009-2009. We, with the German cooperation, we've brought the first project for this funding they have on how to make a red project for the CEDA, a common reserve, indigenous reserve. So I have been thinking a lot on indigenous people because between 2005 and 2017, I was working for the German cooperation. It was not in Syria. And I have always been thinking on how to work better with indigenous people. - No, thank you for sharing, that's incredible. And I can only imagine what that must have been like. And so I know that we're coming up to near time now. And so I think we're all in some way or another working in the same industry. We're trying to protect national paths, we're trying to protect forests, we're trying to fight climate change. And of course, all you have to do is turn the news on or look outside sometimes and actually see that it's quite negative sometimes. But we all have to keep fighting. And what gives you the hope in this fight against climate change and what gets you out of bed in the morning and it keeps you fighting? - Well, to see all the people, my team working in the field with such an enthusiasm and little successes we have every day, every week, every month that keeps us working. We know that it's not an easy path. We know that I'm happy to see every day we are watching the satellite images and we see the forest. We hope soon we will have an overflight. I think that it's such an opportunity for us to have this and we hope that people in the wide public understand what we are doing and what people are intending to do with the market. And I hope that we can keep working in this type of projects and stay in not only working in conservation, but also in the sustainable development and all of that. - Lily, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. You've had an incredible life, an incredible career and to be honest, I could quite happily keep talking to you all day, but I don't think you'd want that. So yeah, really just thank you so much. It's been incredibly insightful and I really hope that a lot of people can hear this and realize that there is so much more to a project than just its ID number. So yeah, once again, thank you so much and hopefully I can take you up in the offer to go to the checkpoint at some point in the future. - Thank you. (upbeat music) - Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you're interested in learning more about how you could support these projects, get in touch with us at
[email protected] or visit our website where you can also explore our market intelligence products to help users better understand the carbon markets. See you next time.
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