Episode 14: University of Minnesota's Medic to MD Program

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Boots to Med podcast. I'm your host Mark Gillam coming to you today direct from our nation's capital at George Washington University. Today we have a special episode featuring an exciting new initiative from the University of Minnesota Medical School. I'm joined by Mr. Chris VanBranck and Dr. Jill Foster who have spearheaded the Military Medic to Medical School program. This program is designed to help military medics transition into Minnesota's MD program, providing them with a guidance and support they need to succeed. We'll dive into the origins of the program and explore how it came to be and discuss the unique values and perspectives that prior medics bring to the medical school classroom. If you're a military medic considering a career in medicine or just curious about innovative pathways into the field, this episode is for you. So let's get started. Hi Chris and Jill welcome to the podcast. Hi thanks. Alright so this is an exciting episode because I have two folks that I'll be talking to today and so I think maybe we should just start with some introductions. So I'm talking to Chris VanBranck and Jill Foster from the University of Med, from the University of Minnesota Medical School. So maybe I'll just start with you Chris. Can you tell us who you are and a little bit about your background? Sure. So my name is Chris VanBranck. I officially at the University of Minnesota. I'm the Director of Education and Training in the Translational Center for Access to the Trauma Care. I have a couple other side hustles all kind of feeding into medicine as my passion. I clinically I'm a critical care flight medic for Duke life flight in North Carolina and I am also the operations manager for a nonprofit, the Global Surgical Medical Support Group. So working on just global medicine. As far as before I got into medicine, my I was in the military, I spent 10 years in the Army, was Army Special Forces and before that was just a college kid trying to find his way in the world. Yeah. I think we were all college kids at one point in our life trying to find our way. Some of us are still trying to find our way in the world. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. So then we also have Dr. Jill Foster. So Jill, you want to introduce yourself to us? Yeah. So I'm the assistant dean for pathways and pipelines in the program and I'm also a pediatric infectious disease doctor here at the University of Minnesota. My background also was that I was a PA before with the medical school. So I was a little bit in common with you part and I get into medicine kind of as a non-traditional student. First-gen, first-generation off the farm as well and had a little bit of a struggle getting into medical school and yet graduated the top of my class and now I'm a full professor. So I've kind of devoted to this part of my career to getting folks into medical school who are the non-traditional folks who might not jump up to the top of the list and a lot of people's minds from who should be a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love trying to identify those folks and you know trying to extend a helping hand to some of those folks who may come from back rounds that you know they've had a harder time getting to where they are today. So it's great to talk to you and I knew there was something that I really liked about you from the moment I met you. So being a being a prior PA of course it's great to hear a little bit about your story. So obviously the main thing or the one of the main things that I wanted to talk to you guys about was the Medict MD program which I think our listeners will really benefit from but I think maybe if we could start with a conversation a little bit about holistic admissions because I think that means you know that's a term that's used broadly and perhaps everyone doesn't know what it means and I think you know the more I ask this question to people the more of a sort of a different slant that I get in the answer. So could we start with with a discussion about that and maybe you guys give me your thoughts? Sure I guess I'll kind of speak from from my I guess where I fit into the Medict Medical School pathway is kind of giving an understanding of we're trying to quantify the background especially specifically the military background that a lot of our candidates have and trying to you know create a I guess a whole picture that includes maybe some of the things that you know a normal admissions committee might not recognize as being values and attributes that these candidates have that might go overlooked. It's one thing to say that you were in the military it's you know but when you refine that into a job specific you know set of experiences I think you can kind of really start to tease out a much you know more unique picture of each individual candidate. So I guess for for my end you know holistic admissions or a holistic look on an individual means that you're you know really trying to take into account the the set in setting and the uniqueness of everyone's story and how that could be a strength specifically in medical school. Yeah I would agree I think you know obviously everybody is a unique individual and everybody brings you know a unique set of talents characteristics background into that situation and so I think it's really important to understand some of those factors as we make a decision about who we want to bring into our program. Jill do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah I do and our admissions process is very based on the double AMC competencies and then we refine a little bit of the ones that we're most focusing in then we add it one. So we don't look at it just oh what are all the numbers in your application the numbers sort of inform that in one of our competencies is academic um preparation but beyond that's one of my favorite competencies are growth mindset and critical thinking. And I really think that's a place where especially the applicants for this program are really going to excel in you know how much have you in your life been in one place and then wanted to be something more something better and done the different things that you needed to do to get to that and how good are you are problem-solving? I mean the more I went to the summer conference this year and the more I'm interacting with folks from that work on that metix the more I see how they're just the talents in being able to problem-solve out in the field when in place in difficult situations and you know in my career as a physician I constantly put in places there are difficult situations and having to problem-solve and I think that that's the to me that's more important than you know what was your MCAT score or your grade point average although you know we certainly look at those too. So curious then would you say I mean that I would agree those are really important qualities but often hard to sort of quantify. How would you say that's best quantified is it through the way that they write about their experiences is it perhaps in the interview process itself perhaps those can come out in that process how would you say the applicants can share that about themselves with you? I think it's both of those. How the application put together is so incredibly important that's one of the things in our program that we're spending a whole month with people in that we have a seminar course and it's spending a whole month in September just making sure that people are able to talk about their experiences and that experiences part of the application. A lot of times what folks do the thing I see go wrong with with all applicants is people just do it as a laundry list of like these are the things that I did and there's a spot in there where you talk about what's meaningful and meaningful is your opportunity to say what did I learn from this how did I become a better person from this and how will I take that and translate it into being a better position from this and we really look at that part of the application for not just what did people do but how do they talk about it what are their thought processes in it and then we do more of that in the application process too and I think you know Chris has been part of our application process for this and introduced a sort of real life question into that that I think you know who's I've taken from him and translating that for what we're using for all our medical applicants now. Yeah and I think to kind of piggyback off that too you know one thing that when we were putting together the application process for our medical medical school program one thing that we do is we do a lot of in-person interviews so it's one thing to say you know when you talk about your experience writing it down you know typing it out something like that where someone's reading you know but the way you carry yourself and the way you answer something in real time where you might not have the opportunity to edit you know delete retie you know do it 15 drafts over again really kind of shows you know how solidified a lot of those lessons are that you're trying to relay in your application so I mean you can you can tease out all kinds of you know very nitty-gritty details about someone's personality based on how they interact with you in real life so it's it's you know you know even going back to the concept of a holistic applicant you know someone who can you know portray in real life you know the thing that they're trying to you know write down really well on a piece of paper is really important to us how do you see these qualities playing out down the road like and third, fourth year medical school residency and beyond. I think especially from the special operations, combat medic side of the house, these people will be natural leaders. I think when we look at where they're going to excel is in that probably third or fourth year. Once we can kind of get past the really dense, academic portion of the first two years where they put them in a clinical setting, where they've had real life hands-on experience of taking care of people in very austere, very chaotic environments and have naturally had to lead their way through those. I think that's where they're going to shine. They're going to be able to calmly walk into a situation, be able to take a broad view of a clinical problem, not get wrapped up in the tunnel vision of the chaos of the moment because they're used to handling that. That's something that really only comes from that type of experience. I think that's where they're going to stand out, hopefully. That's where we think. Yeah, do you agree, Jill? Yeah, I do. I went to medical school after having a lot of clinical experiences. My experience was that as a third year medical student with an intern who's younger than I am and in a lot of ways, I'm less experienced than I am, that also brought with it challenges. One of the things that we're working on is creating the support of community for our applicants. Folks that have come before who are veterans and now in medical school, who have they problem solved through that, and then trying to think of these situations in advance so that we can help people problem solve through that. I agree with Chris totally. We're looking at all the places where we think we can use all of those skills and to augment. Yeah, I think on the other side of the hat too, I can think of situations where you have someone coming in with a lot of great clinical experience, who then sometimes to the detriment of maybe their classmates wants to share that information and say, "Oh, no, that's not how I learned to do things." Any advice about humility in some of these situations? Yeah, I think that's, we had mentioned earlier the seminar series that we're putting together. I think that's part of the seminar series is getting a group of folks, albeit who have majority military experience to try to massage that into how to navigate a civilian communication style. I think that's one thing that we specifically ask in our interview process is, how do you lead from behind and how are you receptive to different ideas where in the military, it's very unidirectional when it comes to communication. Hopefully, we'll be able to work with them on that. I think all the raw materials are there to make a successful communicator in that regard. But yeah, it'll be a challenge, no doubt. But I love that term, lead from behind, I think that's something I'm gonna incorporate into my vocabulary. Thank you for that. All right, well, let's get into the Medic to MD program. So maybe, first of all, just explain it to us and then we can get into how would someone apply if they were interested? Sure. Well, I guess the people often ask, how did this whole thing start? So it's kind of, I think it's a humorous anecdote. But I mean, so Greg Beelman, Dr. Greg Beelman, the director of the Translational Center recessive drama care, him and I found ourselves in Ukraine in 2022 when you didn't really want to be in Ukraine 'cause there's a, well, there's still a war going on. And we were sitting, we were all working for the global surgical medical support group at the time and we were sitting in a bar having a conversation with an 18 Delta Special Forces medic who was also on our team who was talking to us about some of the struggles he was having about getting into medical school and how, because of his asymmetric background of a hodgepodge of classes here and there in between training and deployment, even though he had done medicine and some pretty extreme circumstances was still not being able to have great success and translating that into valuable experience, at least the people can understand. - Sure. - And with a couple of soap boxes and maybe a little too much alcohol, we kind of churned up an idea of like, wouldn't it be nice to have kind of a dedicated pathway for veterans or military medical people who have tremendous amounts of experience, but to create kind of a pathway program that really tried to quantify that experience for the rest of academia. And Greg, his credit, took that idea back to the dean of the medical school. And two years later, I got a phone call that was like, hey, Chris, remember that conversation that we had? Back in Ukraine was like, well, now it's a thing and now we're doing it. So there's funding behind it. All the right people have bought off on the idea. And from all that I can tell, and people are very excited about it, it's to me it's something that like, as always sounded so obvious, but it's kind of a novel concept. When we think about just different pathways to become a doctor. And so that's how the whole program was born. And as far as applying to the program, well, that's, you can go on the website. That'll kind of give you a lot of information on where to send your application documents. But it really kind of just starts, usually a one-on-one conversation with me. And we've had people reach out kind of very formally and then a friend of a friend who saw a text message in a group chat about something that the University of Minnesota was doing with combat medics. And they're like, what's this all about? So word of mouth is kind of our main recruiting tool of the month. - Yeah, yeah. You know what, it's funny because it kind of reminds me a little bit of the story of how the whole PA profession began. I guess it would have been like in the late '60s. And I wonder if that started in a bar, who knows? But it was this conversation about people coming back, medics specifically coming back from Vietnam with these incredible skills that didn't translate into a civilian position. And it was incredibly intuitive, but it had never been done before. So I think this is sort of reminiscent of that. Would you agree, Jill? - Yeah, yeah, I think so. And so I worked in a post-back program at Drexel. And then now I lead a BAMD program here. And so I was in this kind of task with like, well, how do we put it together academically? So I tried looking at like what are the secret sauces that have worked with both of those programs? And the thing that jumps to the top is that you've seen one student and you've seen one student in it. And so we really tried creating this individualized program where we look at folks and assess, because it collects up all their transcripts from the eight different colleges that they've gone to. So we collect it up and figure out where the whole goal is being ready for that first day of medical school. We assume that all the people that we accept are qualified. And so what do we have to do to get them ready? And the first thing that they have to do is they're gonna be able to have to do, okay, on the MCAT, we have a minimum MCAT score. And we provide MCAT prep, but we need to make sure that they've taken the right courses. So we do an assessment, what courses do they need to finish off their prerequisites and how do we get them involved in those courses? So that's the first part. But then a lot of that is just a lot of individualized counseling of chatting with them, chatting with different people that they've worked with, looking at their transcripts, finding out where any places might be a problem for them. Technically biochemistry isn't a prerequisite in the medical school, but somebody who has time in our program to take a biochemistry course before they start med school are gonna do better than somebody. And so really just putting together an individual, there's an, our goal is three to five students a year. So that's a small enough number that we can really be able to do this individualized group approach. And yet a large enough group that they can be a cohort and work together and support each other. - Okay, so these folks are not applying as part of the traditional application cycle. They're applying perhaps with some prerequisites that are outstanding and they have not taken the MCATs. - Correct, and some have. You know, some we have one person who is starting the program who was almost ready to submit his MCATs application who does have everything had taken MCATs already. And then we have somebody else at the other end who's been accepted, we still needed three prerequisites and is already enrolled in our MCAT course. So it's the range of people that still have something that they need and also find it attractive that assuming that in their further coursework they hit the GPA number and for those who haven't taken the MCAT, they have that place in medical school assured for them. Okay. All right. So you're taking folks from all different branches of the military but that have been a medic. It could have been a corpsman in the Navy or a medic in the Army or Air Force. And so let's just say I am just about to get out of the Army on the medic. Maybe I've taken a year of biology. Would I be able to apply just with those with that sort of minimum and then be able to take the rest of the prerequisites and take the MCAT within the year before hopefully starting medical school. So we try to typically catch people within a relatively certain sweet spot. I think what we've found is that we really have ideally about two semesters or so to work with people through the seminar series course and some of their prerequisites. We do try to advocate that they finish the bachelor's degree, either come in with the bachelor's degree, be within a few credits where we can finish the bachelor's degree within that year or so that we have. Because we want to put together a really solid product. I think we joke sometimes but the reality is we want the goal is not to get them into medical school. The goal is to make them really good doctors. And so it's how do you get someone in the right space to be able to do some polishing which is really what the pathway program is designed to do and make them successful in medical school. And then really continue that support all the way through medical school. I think we're kind of, on all honesty, we're building this plane as we're trying to fly at the same time. I think the level of support they're going to need for those first two years I think is going to be really telling about how we need to assess people moving forward. So what we think we need is, we got that answer but what we're actually going to need, I think we're going to kind of figure out as we go along. So I think a lot of it really just comes down to an individual's capacity to dedicate themselves to this pathway. Which I think interestingly enough is something that I think military people understand. Like they get what it's like to throw themselves into something wholeheartedly. So we kind of advise people on what courses to take. Like, all right, just load them on. Let's go. All right. So they wouldn't necessarily like move to the area. Or would they be taking these classes through their own local community college or they would take them at University of Minnesota? I believe they'll be in residence with us. Some folks have needed to kind of finish some stuff up in the place they are, especially the ones that are just separating from the military. But the goal really is for them to have two semesters with us in residence in Minnesota. Okay. And so since this, the idea just started in 2022, this is relatively early in the game. Have you matriculated your first class of these yet? Are you in the process of doing that? This year was going to be our first pathway program class that's going to start this fall and then two will start in the spring. So with us. So how has it been so far? Good. I mean, I really honestly have nothing to compare it to. So I don't come from an academic background. I was just kind of asked to do this job because I was just, I think, part of the initial conversation. So I mean, I think it's going well, I think we said in the initial goal of two candidates and we're walking out with three that we're pretty excited about. And yeah, I mean, I think all indicators at this point, I say that we're on track. Jill, maybe. Absolutely. I mean, we're thrilled when he was coming. And this has also allowed us to really evaluate our atmosphere on campus for veterans, too. We have others in the medical school who've just been kind of dangling out there by themselves. And so this is really giving us the opportunity to really build much more of a community around this program. The other programs I've been involved in, we've had peer support be incredibly important in the other programs. And so we plan to use that model with this, too, of the ones who have gone ahead, you know, reaching back to the ones that are coming behind them. Yeah. So if there are other schools considering something similar, I mean, do you have any thoughts yet? And perhaps I'm sure this will develop over time. But like what sort of resources would be helpful, you know, for veterans kind of coming from this different background that would help them, you know, be successful in your program? This is the best way. I don't know how to say this one way, but, you know, having the right people in the right space to advocate on your behalf. Because I think the whole spirit of this program was, you know, being able to find value where I think a lot of people, and purely just because they just don't understand the world that these people come from, undervalue these candidates. So to set up a pathway program of this kind at whatever university starts with someone who can kind of speak both languages. They can take, you know, someone's, you know, D.D.214, their discharge documents, their enlisted record brief, officer record brief, look at that experience and quantify it for someone who's just going to look at their applications and say, oh, they were in the Army for five years. Right. So because what we don't want them to say is, oh, they were just in the Army for five years. I mean, you would kind of miss a lot of that. So yeah, to set up, you know, successful pathway programs, I think starts with having the right level of advocacy and, you know, Greg, Dr. Beelman being a former military officer, I think has been a huge part of that because he is, he is like at higher levels of both the MD world and the military world. So I think we kind of got really lucky with, you know, certain people just being in the right place with, you know, honestly being open to expanding to D.O.D. I think that that relationship in general, that desire to, you know, be more veteran friendly is, you know, the environment where that, you know, really starts to germinate into something wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I was at the National Advisor Conference, I guess about a month ago and I gave a talk on advising to veterans. And that was one of the things that we talked about. There were several veterans in the group, but how, you know, I think as veterans, you don't really understand the value of some of the things that are on that D.D. 214, right? Like, you know, okay, you have a combat medical badge or you have a bronze star, like what does that mean? And get them talking about that so that the advisor can go, oh, wow, that's amazing. You've got to share that on your application because initially the veterans like, oh, that was just part of my job. I didn't know it was a big deal. Right. So I think that's really important. Yeah. And we run into that all the time because I think, you know, people, I mean, there's more of a life loss, I think, but I think a lot of people don't really know how to talk about their experience without maybe seeming just, you know, overly arrogant or whatever. But it is very, it's very valuable to, you know, to talk about awards, decorations that just, you know, don't exist in the normal civilian academic environment. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So one of the things that I've heard from veterans is that they're, they're apprehensive about applying to medical school because their, their paths are so different. Like, you know, you hear, if you go on, you know, Reddit or any other student doctor network, you hear about, oh, you know, research, you've got to have research. And some of these things that they just simply aren't going to have, like perhaps, you know, community service, like maybe they didn't have time to go volunteer at the food bank because they were deployed for a year or whatever. So, you know, can you speak to some of those things? Sure. I, I think, again, a lot of it is having a conversation with them about what they did. And, you know, getting them to think about their experience in a different way. Because even, even for veterans, especially when you're in the military, the military doesn't teach you how to talk about your own experience in a way that makes sense to anyone other than people in the military. You know, I think in a lot of people, especially when veterans interact with veterans, it's like they do the whole like, you know, secret language, secret handshake thing. And it's like you, you get it, right? They, I, I get someone, but, you know, that is not going to translate into anything else. And I think people would be shocked by just how much they've done without really knowing that they've actually done it. And, and I think we're, you know, at the University of Minnesota, we're lucky in the sense that because we get them for a period of time, and, you know, this pathway program lives under the umbrella of essentially a research center, we can fill in a lot of those gaps that, yeah, they just, they wouldn't have had. And, and, and another for me, I mean, as, as I've tried to learn this role, um, is really trying to understand why certain things are valuable and then being able to maybe fill in kind of like an exception. I'm like, well, I understand what you're getting at, but here's how this experience fits that criteria in a way that you probably didn't think about. And you know, because I mean the spirit of volunteering. I mean, that's that's the military in general. I'm like you you volunteer to serve your country like exactly and you did it for years of your life. So I mean, you know, I think I can get that to count for someone who may not have served in a food bank. You know, you just you volunteered to sacrifice your life. So I don't know, but it's to me that I don't know. That would be my answer to your question. Okay, any any of your thoughts Jill, you want to add anything to that? Yeah, I mean the other half of that is that we have to indicate ourselves as men's school faculty about this. There's one person not somebody in the admissions committee was like, can't we do any service? And I'm like, I think they're literally coming from the service. And and just educating people on learning something about what these folks have done other than what they may have watched in a movie or something. I think that and we've been I think we've been doing that. I think we've been doing laying the groundwork and then finding, you know, it's like all these people coming out of the woodwork now. We have the program like, hey, I'm a veteran, which you know, I didn't even know that they were. And so, you know, getting them more involved in the process. But, you know, I think that, you know, I'm sort of amplifying what Chris said. I think there's a lot of things that people have done, especially in the research area. Again, I talked about we did critical thinking is one of our competencies. You know, somebody other day was just talking about it. Where he's doing with like a QI project around blood transfusions like that's research, you know, you may not have a publication in the doing the journal on it. But it's it's research. It's showing a critical thinking approach to a real life problem. And, you know, and so we're translating it into that. And I think that the flip side works too is that veterans also look at medical students and be like, I'm not like that person. Therefore, I'm not going to apply. Like, I'm not a, I'm not a 4.7. You know, GPA students. So therefore, I must not be qualified to be a doctor. So I think it's also educating veterans on what it's actually like. Because they will they will psych themselves out interestingly enough. I think more the more so than a normal, you know, student trying to apply to medical school. So they like I said, they have to they have to learn to, you know, we have to break down the stereotypes in both directions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I realized that your program is specifically for those with a medical background, but I will say, you know, because having from coming from my own post back background at GW. You know, we we we got a lot of veterans in that program that didn't necessarily have, you know, they weren't medics. You know, they were. I can think of any number of different career paths. You know, that they that they've come from. But, but I mean, I think they all bring something that's really, really interesting to the table and will make them a great physician one day. Or great clinician, you know, some of them end up going to PA school as well. So I don't know, and I think it's it's hard for us to put our fingers on that exactly. I mean, we can say leadership. You know, we can say communication. We can say, you know, dedication, things like that. But I don't know, it's it's hard to put our fingers on that. You know, so I hope more programs will open up like yours and even, you know, even those that sort of consider all different types of, you know, backgrounds and military. So I think we talked about this a little bit before, but I wanted to just give you guys, you know, to see if you want to add just in terms of, you know, other. Is there any other specific resources for veterans at your school? You know, that that would be valuable to those considering your program. Sure. So we have, I guess specifically within the medical school, there is a forming military interest group that. Will kind of be intimately involved, especially in teaching a lot of our seminar series since, you know, they're going to be students who've kind of gone through the process, but also having that veteran tie to be able to, you know, coach people along. We, I haven't actually explored, and it would be something to explore, but, you know, I know the university, my so specifically, the veteran ties are pretty strong in the business school as well. But there are small pockets, people's, I think, you know, as far as resources goes. They're just, they're scattered, but they exist. I guess would be the easiest way to say it. And, and I think that's a culture, you know, and we have other avenues within the center that we're trying to change that culture. Not really necessarily applying to the military medical medical school, but we are in a concerted effort at the moment to become a part of clinical training for military folks to bring them like into our affiliated hospitals and clinics to give them exposure to not only, you know, medicine in Minnesota, but also. Indirectly to our pathway program. So just trying to connect people, I guess. Sure. Sure. Do you know, I know this isn't your either of your lanes, but do you know in terms of, you know, finances like could they could veterans use their GI benefits and are you a yellow ribbon program. So, so mix a little bit easier financially. Yes. So yes, you are able to use your GI benefits. I think that's, it's that that's actually something that we're currently working through right now, just based on the degree like being in a program that has degree requirements for to utilize your GI benefits. I believe, yes, the University of Minnesota is a yellow ribbon participating program. So they are able to kind of offset the cost in that way. Yeah. Okay, that's good to know. All right, I guess I would like to give you guys just a minute to kind of veterans veterans aside for a minute. I mean, maybe you just talk a little bit about your medical school. Like what is what is the typical student like and what are you most proud of about your school? I've not been to the man I can't speak for many personal experience, but I guess the one thing that stands out. As even just when we were setting up this program was. How open people are to the idea of a novel approach. I mean, I think it's, it's kind of a bold move to essentially bypass a longstanding tradition of application processes to basically get to the point where we can say. We have five golden tickets to hand out people to says if you meet these requirements that we created in concert with talking to people, you know, we tried to look at what was proven to be kind of worthwhile things to assess for. But we're the ones holding that ticket. You know, when we when we hand people that letter, it's like. This also counts as your acceptance to medical school provided you meet certain criteria. And I think and the fact that people were even open to that being the case, I think speaks volumes to, you know, how willing and people are wanting people to succeed specifically within the veteran community. So, so that I don't know that was one thing that really stuck out to me as being kind of quite unique because I don't think that kind of environment exists everywhere, especially in, you know, a very, very traditional environment like medical school. So that would be one thing I'm, I guess, quite proud about. So less competitive and more collaborative and more just a desire on the part of the faculty for students to succeed. Yes, absolutely. Great. Absolutely. Do you have anything to add to that, Joe? He and I wait. I'm pretty heavily involved in missions and I sort of are, you know, like, what are our taglines and our tight lines are discovery and innovation, which some people might think, oh, I mean, you have to be a researcher. But, you know, it's, I think the other thing that I really value about here is the diversity of experiences that are valued. So discovery and innovation could be the work done a lab and, you know, they came up with a cure for cancer or it could be that, you know, you figured out in the field, the better way to put a chest to be in. And that that breadth of experience is not only sort of accepted, but people are looking for it. And so I think that one of the things that really value about the medical school is like, you know, once you get here in your hours, you know, your ours and your part of the community and your part of a group of folks that want you to do well and want you to succeed. And really what you just succeed, especially from an acceptance, there's there's a big affinity for an acceptance and what will you say this future. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, great, great. Well, lastly, I just want to ask you both for your own sort of personal wisdom, your own advice for those, you know, and you don't even necessarily have to be speaking to a veteran, but maybe just, you know, you can be, but just someone. That really wants this, but maybe just lacks confidence. Like what would you say to them? I highlighted in my, for people who attend the webinar that we do on a quarterly basis, there's a big, bold highlighted slide that says don't self select like let, let us select you don't, don't be the person who decides. that you're gonna take over your own admissions process and automatically assess yourself out before you even submit anything. So always be willing to at least start a conversation, which will kind of give you much more insight on where you're at. Because I think a lot of people, once they start the conversation, they're like, "Oh man, okay, so I need to do X, Y, and Z cool. I'll talk to you again in like a year and a half." I'm like, "Great, you know, we keep in touch with those people." I, you know, we don't expect, this program was designed with the idea that you're not a finished product just coming out of the military. So we expect that, you know, and like Jill was saying earlier, you know, we expect that it took people a certain amount of time to find themselves. I mean, that's a big part of everyone's military pathway that I think, you know, ends up molding a lot of those qualities that will make people really good physicians down the road. So, you know, don't, I guess all that to say, you know, don't self-select in this process, you know, let us do the picking, but always be, you know, safe to put yourself out there. - How about you, Jill? - I mean, I couldn't have said it better. I mean, the only thing I'll add is, don't be afraid of Minnesota winners. (laughing) I'm not from Minnesota, I'm from East Coast and I'm not sure. - I'm not sure. - And that's so bad. - And there are a lot of really wonderful things about Minnesota. I mean, I did medical school certainly, but also about Minnesota and the boundary waters and, you know, and the people here, I mean, people talk about Minnesota nice and, you know, and I think it's, I think it really fits. - Yeah, yeah. Now, I picture you guys like after we get off this interview, you guys are gonna go out and go swimming in one of those lakes, and that's what I picture. - Or kayaking. - Or kayaking, okay, yeah, okay. And then if we were in the winter, of course, you would go out, you know, ice fishing right after. - That's right. - That's right. - All right, well, just to be clear, then, I wanna make sure that, so obviously you guys are a state school, so there is definitely a preference for Minnesota residents, but within this program, you could still apply, even if you weren't a Minnesota resident. - Yeah, yeah, we dropped the Minnesota preference for this, 'cause we know, you know, there's only so many people. Although we do have close ties with our national guard group, which is, you know, which your Minnesota. - Sure, sure, sure. All right, well, gosh, Mr. Chris van Braenck and Dr. Jill Foster, I have really enjoyed this conversation. I think that we collectively have hopefully shared some wisdom that'll be of benefit to our listeners, and I really appreciate your time. - Yeah, thank you for coming. - No, thank you so much for having us. - That's a wrap. We are so grateful to Mr. van Braenck and Dr. Foster for sharing valuable insights about the Military Medic to Medical School Program, and their advice on navigating the admissions process. If you'd like more information about their program, feel free to contact Chris van Braenck at [email protected]. That's Victor Alpha, November, Bravo, Romeo 049, at umn.edu. As a reminder, we strive to provide the best information possible, but please remember that what we share are our own personal stories, thoughts, and opinions. We make no guarantees regarding admission to George Washington University or any other medical or PA school. If you have any questions about what we discussed today, or ideas for future content that might be of help to you on your journey, don't hesitate to reach out to me, via email at [email protected]. That's BOTS, the number two, MEDS, at gwa.edu. This is Bart Gillum, signing off for now. Take care, everybody.