Episode 14 : Interview with Brandon Johnson, who is a Fertility coach and Therapist

(upbeat music) Hi everyone and welcome back to the MIP, the mail-in-vitality podcast. And this one is gonna be episode 14. And today I've got another interview for you. It's an interview with Brandon, who is a Invitility Coach and Therapist. And we had a really good chat about his side of things, and the journey that he went through, which at the time I didn't realize that he had actually gone through himself. So that was a surprise to me. And I thought it was, it brought something else to the table, which I thought was really good. Well, without further ado, let's begin. - Hi Brandon, and welcome to the MIP. Thank you for joining me on this episode. Brandon is an Invitility Coach and Therapist. And it's fantastic, he's joined me on this episode. Welcome Brandon. - Thank you Nick, it's great to be here. - Thank you, thank you. Okay, so let's, without further ado, do you wanna tell us about yourself and how you got into everything? And kind of, did you fall into the fertility side of things or did you specifically choose to go down this route? - A little bit of both. So again, I'm a therapist slash infertility coach and I was already a therapist at the time. And when I was going through my infertility journal, journey, going through that journey made me realize how lonely it was. So afterwards, I figured no male should have to self-produce this alone again and should have someone to talk to. And that's when I added the male infertility parts to my therapy practice. Oh, that's fantastic. That's, I didn't realize that you'd had your own journey as well. Do you wanna maybe talk a little bit about that as well? Just to. - I can. So around 2013, my wife and I were trying to conceive. And so she was going through the test thing and I joined her probably a year later. 'Cause women always go through a process first but she kept coming back fine. So once I started a test, my first test for the sperm analysis came back inconclusive. And so that doctor referred me to another doctor who was considered one of the best in the state. And after doing an ultrasound and two sperm analysis, he just said you're not producing. - Really? So what? A zero count as well? - Yeah, just fragments. - Oh, okay. - And like fragments don't know holes, but not just a bunch of fragments. - All right. - So after a little bit of denial, it came to part where I finally had to accept it. And that part became the lonliest of all. Because there's no one you could turn to, your confidence or strip, you feel less than a man and I tried talking to people, but no one seemed to understand. Or I was talking to a friend who asked children and while I'm talking about trying to have children, they're talking about their children and how busy it is. And I'm like, I'm trying to be that busy. (laughs) - Yeah. - And so I remember just being really lonely and not having anyone to talk to and really wanted someone to talk to. And I thought out therapists myself and most on what women. And what I have, nothing against female therapists. It was, I didn't feel comfortable talking about infertility with the female therapists. - Okay. - Thank you. - I suppose you maybe wanted to speak to someone that would be able to relate, like personally relate from a male side of things, I imagine. - Yes. - Yeah. - Because it just feels, I'm not gonna say it feels weird 'cause there are female therapists out there doing a great job, but I didn't just want to put my scrotal out there and discuss all the problems out there. - Yeah. No, I can see where you can look from. I mean, it depends on how comfortable you are in doing it and obviously everyone's different. I mean, so that's gonna be taken into consideration. So if you were only happy talking, did you find anyone to speak to? - No, that was the amazing part. I went to Resolve's website. Are you familiar with Resolve? - No, I don't know what Resolve is, there's no. - It's a national infertility organization where they do a lot of advocacy work. And I thought it was international, but definitely in America. - Thank you. - For past different infertility laws help insurance cover different infertility treatment. So it's a huge organization, but when I went to their website, there was no male in state who covered infertility. - Oh wow. - And talking to, where I talked about primary care doctor about it, it actually made him uncomfortable. - Oh really? - Yeah. I imagine maybe he has, he hadn't come across it too frequently or even if he had the obviously. - All right, oh, could have been the first. - It could have been, yeah, it could have been. Wow. It makes you mind to blow a little bit that there's just a literally so little, I was spoken to a few people recently and they've all said the same thing. Even now, I mean, obviously yours was a few years ago, but obviously you're out there now. But it is slowly changing, but from the male side of things, there's still a lack, if you know what I mean. Especially with how many people are going through this? - 'Cause even when the male is diagnosed, all the treatment still goes to the woman. There's never, unless it's biopsy, there's never a way to treat the male or a change of diet or any other vitamin regimen that can help with farm count. - Yeah. - But even doing the IVF, IUI, and all the other infatility treatment, it's still the woman who goes through it and the male is still close to the five. - Yeah, yeah. So obviously with your journey, did you, like have you had kids since with your wife or is it, it was, what? - We adopted a child. - I did, yeah, that's good. That's good. - Oh, that's good. - And that's been great. - He's to now and life has certainly changed. (laughing) - Oh, that's good, man. That is good. - Yeah. - So is this, obviously, that you do therapy as well? So is this your main job and so on or is it? - It is. - It is. Yeah. So do you deal with a lot of, obviously, you deal with just therapy then, but how much fatality therapy do you deal with them like a day today or a weekly basis or someone? - Not as much as I deal with people who are constantly having children. So I would love to have more clients who are in the struggle, but the clients I have mainly are those who want children and can't decide on when to have them, if they should have them, if they're ready. So they're constantly, it's more apparent for family planning apparently, as I said, that you push into those who are willing to open up about their fertility journey. And part of that could also be because when you're going through the journey, at some point, you're still shy about it and don't want to talk about it. So I've been on panels and then talks where people in a room would say, I just found out my sister went through IVF and she has three children and we're siblings, but it wasn't until they opened up about their own journey that people wanted to open up. - Okay, okay, yeah. And do you have mainly, do you mainly have, like on the fertility side, do you have like, do you have women coming to you, are men or is it just mainly men? Or. - It's both and couples. Both and couples, okay, okay. And do you think that the fact that you say that there's not that many and you'd wish there was more people coming to you to talk about fertility struggles? But do you think that's because men find it harder to talk about their feelings and so on? Do you think that's probably the reason? - I believe so 'cause in therapy in general men are, unless they're truly ready for the change, they're much harder to break open. Or to get to open up. And I would say women open up to people naturally and even each other. So they're just easier to end therapy. But even they have their walls. - I can imagine, yeah, I can imagine. So when you do have the bloats coming to you, do you find that maybe sometimes instead of maybe going to you themselves that maybe they're kind of dragged by their wives maybe or does that often happen? (laughing) - There are some guys who admit to it. - Yeah. - Some would say I'm coming here because my wife suggested it or I'm having these issues and my wife suggested I go see therapy. And some are like, I'm ready to make a change. And I need somebody to help me through. 50/50. - 50/50, okay, okay, yeah. So do you mainly have like US people coming to you or have you had people from around the world? - Right now mainly in the US. - Mainly in the US, yeah, okay. - Yeah, so I'm hoping to get more people around the world. And I would also love to maybe travel and do some, definitely some learning about international, how different countries are handling and fertility and male fertility. So I would love to get more from around the world. - It's interesting I find having like, because people message me and they ask me just about my experiences and what advice I can give them. I'm not a therapist or anything like that. So I just took about my experiences and what I, my views on them. But in the US, is it mainly like people from your state? Or is it like literally all over the US like across the nation or? - Currently my demographic is most of them are from the state. And then there are people from mainly like Midwest and Southern region of the US. - Okay, is that because you would do your sessions in house or and like say not across, I don't know, Skype or so on. Do you have to just mainly do the in house then? Is that why? - I don't know, I'll put virtual therapy. I prefer virtual therapy. - Okay. - So it's a both. And now with pandemic, definitely virtual. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can stay in your house, we'll just talk. (laughing) - Yeah, I know, it's scary stuff going on out there. - Scary stuff. But yeah, as any people come to you because of it, like I don't know, like maybe because over here in the UK, because of it, they're putting a stock to all IVF treatment for now anyway. So are they doing that sort of thing over there and the states and maybe people are coming to you asking you whether or not, like I don't know, they're at the wit's end and they're doing what to do. Like worst case scenario, they could have used their last embryo at the wrong time, well not the wrong time, but like we've been really unlucky and like say used it just before this all happened and then they've cut it all off and it's like that was my last fertilized egg, you know what I mean? And then these ways, I mean, but horrendous. - And no, their timing. - Yeah, so as anyone come to you recently about it, not yet. And I want to say that's because our lockdown is two weeks old. It's fairly newer compared to the UK and that's obvious 'cause the cases came over here slightly later. - Yeah. - And so I think at this point, people are still trying to figure out their lives and adjustment, adjustment and once they kind of get settled with how they live on a normal routine, they'll start opening up more. So that's my assumption. - Yeah, 'cause it might be too much to deal with if they're trying to like absorb everything and then letting it all out to you as well, so if you catch my drift. - Yes. - So how much contact do you have with other fertility therapists and coaches and so on? Or are you just trying to go on yourself? - No, I definitely have contact with a few people. There's a guy I met recently at an opportunity conference who is breaking into the male, opportunity therapy also. So him and I talk often and then there's a few other therapists who have been doing it for a while, along with the trainers and postpartum depression, and I was supposed to, before the pandemic, I was scheduled to be a part of the panel for another fertility conference. So I definitely stay within the community and possibly hit a voices of the people and what everyone needs as far as different treatment, different options, therapy options. - Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. What was the conference that you were gonna go to? - It's called a photo AF. - And that's been canceled now because of the pandemic. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. - And do you know you say the other people that you spoke to are they in your state or are they like across the country? - Both. Instagram has allowed the great pleasure of connecting with people everywhere. - It is good, it is good. You know technology and specifically Instagram. - Yeah. - It does seem to be quite a big in fertility community or fertility community on Instagram, which is really good. I do like that. I do like it because there's so much people because everyone's individuals and journeys are so specific is, they've got so many different thoughts and so on that go through the heads. It's good to see everyone's difference perspective and I imagine. So I imagine from your perspective there's been a therapist to see all these different perspectives that it's good for you as well. You know what I mean? Because you can see what's going on everywhere. - It is and how people handle certain problems and why someone may handle a situation differently. So now it's great. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And even on Instagram men are still quiet. There's a lot of men who are speaking up more, but for the most part, they're quiet. - Yeah, yeah and I agree. I agree. There's been quite a few who are quite vocal, like I did, I'm assuming Fatherhood's out there. There's an account with the man cave as well. So I spoke to him quite a few times. And then there's just individual guys. And then obviously you've got the wives who come to us and speak to us about their husbands. And so maybe obviously because the men either aren't ready yet to open up or just doing it, or the men are doing it through their wives maybe. - Yes, or the woman is trying to figure out how to help their husbands. - But yes. - Yes. - He is not, he's just breaking, he's cracking. - Yeah. - Because of the pressure of it. - Yeah, I imagine that you've seen a variety of stages in the men of like initially finding out to full on, well, I imagine like a meltdown if you know what I mean. 'Cause it would affect some people that way, full on. 'Cause you know what I mean, it's such a massive thing to find out that you can't find the child and the naturally and some people don't take it well. - No, and that's the hardest part because a lot of people, that's what we do. It can't do anything, it's both to have children. - Yeah. - So find out you can't destroy them and that's the biggest part of killing less than a man. - Yeah, how do you deal with obviously, if you say if you see these people throughout the day, does it take a toll on you? 'Cause obviously you're having to suck in all this information to all these different people. How does that make you feel? 'Cause especially being through that journey yourself as well. - I'm really great at compartmentalizing things. So I don't take it on personally and I don't allow it to really affect me, more so of how I can absorb their information and really give them ways to handle it. That's specific for them. Really work with them. And I, oh, self-care, have a great self-care regimen. So and that includes writing poetry, reading and I will listen to music a lot, mainly jazz on the way home. So I can kinda, if something digts, I can kinda let it go. - Yeah. - But a lot of pressure to take on, but for the most part, I'm really good at, which is letting it go. - Okay. I suppose, yeah, otherwise it, that is good that you're able to do that otherwise, it would start to affect you or imagine quite a bit. 'Cause you're gonna have people at different stages, you're gonna have people who may be crying in front of you, people who literally, very, imagine you find there's some people where you try and you're trying to get them to talk, but they may be giving you one word answers and things like that, maybe. I don't know, part of the time. - Yeah. - And I guess the thing is, I do most and I think I do best, is I don't make therapy feel like therapy. It's really conversational. During the sessions, I do my best to make it to be honest, if we're at a park at a picnic table or something, so that way it doesn't seem so interview style. - Yeah. - It just comes off naturally. And if I know their problem and I have in too much trouble, I'll just give them a little bit of insight about my journey and then it'll just get everything started flowing. - Yeah, it's good that you can relate to them because then you can give them your thoughts on it having been through it yourself. - Yeah. - That's good. I imagine making them feel comfortable, isn't it? - It is. And getting them comfortable to open up 'cause as you know, it's sensitive. - It is. - You know, to discuss something for the sensitive, you have to make them really comfortable. - Yeah, you can't go in there like, being, I don't know. (laughing) - It takes on there, it's gonna be amazing. What's your problem? - Yeah, exactly. They're just gonna sit there like, not say anything. But yeah, oh, good. So obviously, how, going through the therapy and everything that you provide and so on, is it how has your journey and they're going into this as well, like affected you and your wife and so on? Did it affect you in any negative way? So is it all been positive? Is it what you closer? - I'm gonna give you two answers to that question 'cause at first it was negative. And it wasn't really hard, it was me. And I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't wanna talk about it. I didn't know how I felt about myself. And I remember at one point, I was like, you know what, would you get a divorce? I'll let you go with someone who can give you kids. - Really? - Yes, and believe it or not, that was the turning point in our entire marriage. And our marriage was always good, it was always stable. But that point brought us closer, because she said, I'm not leaving you. We go through our problems through thick and thin, and we're gonna figure this out too. I was like, it's done to me. 'Cause I'm like, huh? But, it's like, I'm not with you for your ability to have kids, I'm with you because I love you. So we're gonna find a way through it. And from then on, it brought us closer, it allowed me to communicate better, which obviously, brunk made our marriage even better than it was. That's good, no, that's good. I love stories, it's really low stories like that. (laughs) - That was the other part that made me focus on it, because, opportunity, one in three couples who go through the Fertility Journey, go get a divorce, that's-- - Really? Wow. - Third, that's a lot. - That's a lot, I do know, no idea that, that was, it was that high. Wow. - Yes, and then at some of the Fertilic concerts, you see the people who have head children, and I still angry at each other from the journey. - Really? - Yeah. - Oh, wow. What, because it wasn't straightforward? - I'm a stillman soul between that, the lack of communication, the financial strain, one partner, one thing, to give up, the other one to keep going. - Yeah. - So even after the children are still angry? - Yeah, I suppose maybe sometimes, that the man or the woman would be like forcing the other one to have the kid, but maybe the other one, because of what's happened, it's more reluctant, because maybe it won't be their biological child, or whatever, because there's a million thoughts to go through your mind in this sort of journey. So, that's a real high number, real high. - It is. And also, you have to think of the, how often you relive the opportunity journey when you're trying to have more children, if you choose to have children. - Yeah. So. - Yeah, I suppose, because if you go through it, let's just say, from my perspective, anyway, the wife's pregnant now, and manage to get it through on the first round. So we've got one left in the freezer. - Congratulations. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And, but obviously, we, for the child to then have a sibling, we'll have to go through it all again. And obviously, there's no guarantee that that one's going to take. So we may have to go through the whole stage again to try and get more eggs. And then, obviously, make them fertile and so on. And then go back through the IVF and everything else. So, yeah, you can, I can see what you mean by reliving it. And I've spoken a few times on the podcast about how you get reminders every single day through social media. - Yeah. - And I imagine you have people in your sessions who would maybe talk about that sort of thing, constantly being reminded or family members may be talking about it. - I think family members are the worst accidental offender, accidental offender. And that's because the odds end up with someone who gets pregnant accidentally. And you're trying to get pregnant on purpose and can't. - Yeah. Yeah. - Yeah. - You're trying to be happy, but like, I've been trying. - Yeah. - And trying and trying. - He had one night of good luck. (laughing) - One night of passion. - Right. - Or if they tell him I'm gonna say, I didn't even want kids, you know what I mean? It was a mistake. Oh, good. That makes me feel even better. Cheers, mate. - Right. So, family members, and I don't think their intentions are cruel. I think it's been honest, but they don't realize how it may hurt your spouse or anyone else. - Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any pressure yourself from like family members? Have you got like brothers and sisters who got loads of kids? Or? - Not from our brothers. I have two brothers, neither one of them have children yet. But I have a big family side. A lot of cousins who are just getting pregnant all around the same time are going through this journey. And they're like, and then they're like, "Yo, tell us who's baby shower." And I'm like, "No." (laughing) - Yeah. - I'm sorry. - I don't need a reminder, no. (laughing) - Yeah. - Yeah. - I'm like, God didn't pregnant. - I mean, it just take, it's just take its toll mentally on people and those constant reminders aren't particularly helpful, but at the end of the day, it's really hard. You have to live in, well, you have to live in a box to not hear about anything, wouldn't you? - Exactly. And that's not really- - It's a common question. - Oh, common question is always, when are you going to have children? - Yeah. - So no matter what you try to do to avoid it, it's coming. - Yeah. - How are your parents when you told them about it? 'Cause obviously, especially going down the adoption route as well, were they completely cool with that as well? They're not fully behind you. - Actually, in some ways, I think they're both still in denial. - Really? - Yes. They both love my son, obviously. But, they're like, maybe next time, it'll, you'll get my wife pregnant. - Okay. - No, like, we try for six years. - I get you. - Do you see that? - So, okay. - That was purposely trying. Who knows how many times beforehand? - Yeah, yeah. - True. - Do you reckon they say that sort of thing, which is purely out of like hope or like, or like say that maybe they're in denial, or do you think maybe they don't just, they don't fully understand it, maybe? - I think they don't fully understand it, and they don't know how to process it. Because I do have a very fertile family. So, it's not an issue that has come up a lot. - Yeah. - And so, what's made then the first one who's infertile, they're like, huh, what is this? What is this? - What are you talking about? (laughing) - After you not have children and your cousin is pregnant, and your other cousin has a pregnant girlfriend. - Yeah. - Is he a good? - Yeah, sure. - It happens, so. - It does happen, it does happen, yeah. I know what you mean, my, my, well, the wife's family is big, and not my immediate family, but the rest of my mother's family there, there's loads of them as well. So, it's just getting given a really crap hand, you know what I mean? And just, there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, you know what I mean? The only thing we can do is, well, do what we can. I mean, at the end of the day, you've got a two year old, two year old now, so, I mean, you're gonna be really happy about that, and obviously, we've had to go down the dona sperm room and luckily the wife's pregnant, so, I know I was a little bit buzzing about that, so. - Oh, that is great, that's another hard route, 'cause we tried donor, it didn't take though. I was five rounds. - Five rounds, oh no. - Before we decided to adopt. And I chose to, we chose adoption, because on the last one, the doctor said, he wants to scrub my wife's tooth, and I've heard about that from someone else, and I was like, that's painful, and there's no amount of pain killer that can take away the pain, and we're not gonna do that. Let's take a break and figure it out. - Okay. - So. - So, - So, then you look down the adoption route, and how easy or difficult is that in the US? - It was easy for, it was easy, it's expensive though. So the agency we chose made it very simple, everything was cut and dry. They let us through the paperwork, the home study, so they made everything really easy. So I think it was more about the agency than the actual process. - Okay, so when you say, like the cost and so on, how does it work, 'cause obviously, well, I don't really know how it works personally. - What sort of things, apart from buying stuff for the baby once it's born and you've got it, I suppose. What do you have to pay? Like, what do you have to pay? - There was money for the application, the home study, the lawyer, both your lawyer and the adopted mother lawyer. There's money for, there's sometimes money for the adopted mother living expenses, along with court cases and then the agency fees. I feel like I'm missing a couple, but that's a good part of most of it. - Okay. - So, over it, on average, it's about $25,000. - Wow. - USD. But there was great. Yes, but there were grants and crowd funding, opportunities we took advantage of, a garage sale, and then I think we both worked two jobs at the time to save up for it. - Okay. Okay. So you literally went out there and did whatever you could to get what you wanted. - Exactly. - That's cool, that's cool. It just shows how much you really wanted it to happen, that you were willing to go through all of that, just to make it happen. I mean, like that. It shows true determination and like that a lot. - Thank you. - Okay, so Brandon, last question then. So when people come to you and they're asking for your services and therapy services and so on, what sort of process do you go through once they've gone contact with you? The process is really simple. So I'll send them a coaching agreement, make sure they agreed everything. There's a free consultation. It's about 30 minutes and that's just to make sure that client feels comfortable with me and vice versa. And after that, we meet, discover what their initial concern is, whether it's azurestharmia or post-pollum depression, figure out what their issue is and take it from there. And each process from that point looks different, but generally they're involved, from generally seeing anything that they're traumatized over how to help their marriage and ways that they can build their confidence back. So confidence is big is key. - Yeah, and do you have, obviously, when they come to you for the sessions and stuff, is there like, do people come for like one session? Do people come to say for five? Or do you have literally ongoing sessions with couples that maybe go like, I don't know, maybe like a couple of years maybe, I don't know. Have you had that? - I have packages. So the packages are sold in eight weeks, 16 weeks and 24 weeks. Because some people may be a little shy about therapy, so a shorter time frame will be better and people like, there's a lot more I got to iron out and that's the longer case. And then there's always the extension. - Okay, cool. So they literally come for you. So each package that they would get, they'd get a minimum of eight sessions with you and then obviously more if they need to. - Yes. - That's cool. That is cool. - Right, so, okay, I'm gonna wrap things up and I just wanna say thank you to Brandon for coming onto the MIP. I've really enjoyed this chat. It's been different. The first time I've spoke to a therapist about his journey as well, your journey and everything else that you, your profession as well, which is, which can help a lot of people out there, which I think is absolutely fantastic. So Brandon, do you wanna tell everyone where they can find you and if they need to speak to somebody, they know where they can come? And do you wanna let them know where they can find you? - Yes, my website is infertility. Isn't inferior.com. You can also find me on Instagram at brandin.sapis. Reach out to me on my phone, Twitter @C-list.sapis. I do have a few openings available and I'm willing to help you walk through the process. The first connection is a 30 minute consultation and make sure it's a good fit and make sure you're comfortable and see how you feel and then we'll go through there. - Brilliant. Okay, Brandon, thanks for that information. And what I'll do is I'm gonna put links to all of the stuff that you've just said into the description in the podcast description section. So if anybody wants to find out whether can find Brandon, all the links will be there and you can just hopefully get in touch. - Yes, and thank you, Nick. I'm really honored and humbled to be with you today. It is really great for our thank you. - Thank you. No, thank you. Thank you. Okay, so that was the interview guys. I hope you enjoyed it. I'm going to leave links to all of Brandon's social media and websites and stuff in the description of the podcast. So if you wanna find him or get in touch with him or hire him maybe, then there you go. You'll know where to go. As always, thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. And if you wanna share this out to your social media or somebody else's or whatever, just to get the word going, spread the word, spread the love, then go for it. I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much. And well, until next time, this is the MIP, sun and off. See ya. (upbeat music)