Episode 135: Mindfulness in Therapy: How Clinicians use it Beyond the Buzzword

Welcome to WWDMD, a podcast that is all about peeling back the curtain on what clinicians really think and feel as they work with others. My guests, clinicians, who are also sometimes clients themselves, risk their vulnerability as they publicly share their emotional reactions to their clients, disclose their challenges in doing the work, and reveal their personal backgrounds. I'm Dr. Myers, I'm a psychotherapist in New York City with 30 years of practice experience, specializing in anxiety and impressive disorders as well as sibling relationships and family systems. I'm also a professor of social work at Malloy University on Long Island. I see this as a journey of self-reflection for not only our guests, but you, because with each episode, I'm hopeful that you will learn something new about yourself. Please note that any discussion of case details have been modified to protect the privacy of our clients. Well, with Dr. Myers, you too. Hey, everyone. I kind of believe that mindfulness is one of those words that we're hearing everywhere right now through apps, yoga studios, from wellness influencers, but in therapy, it actually means something a little different. I think that at its core, mindfulness is simply the practice of paying attention to the present moment with curiosity instead of judgment, but in clinical work, I'm getting a sense that there's a whole nother flavor and layer to it that I want to learn more about. I think in clinical work, mindfulness may be about clearing your mind or achieving some state of calm perfection, if that even exists, but it's also more than that in what little I know, and my guest today is going to help us understand what it looks like and how it's practiced. We're also going to explore what happens when clients are skeptical about it and the moments when mindfulness can really shift the course of a session. So welcome Natalie Neves. She's a licensed professional counselor, a counselor educator in the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Malloy University, and a doctoral candidate at Montclair State University, where she's expected to complete her long haul, because I've been there done it. No, it in May. So that's exciting, because that is literally right around the corner. Wow. Congratulations for all you've done so far with that. So I'm really excited to have you here, because I'm one of those people who, as I just said, mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness, you know, we have to practice it, but what exactly is it? It's like my students who are constantly saying that everybody always says about self-care, self-care, self-care, what is it really? Because there's got to be more to it than going to get your nails done or taking a hot day. Right. So can you start us off and just tell us what it actually means? Absolutely. First, I just want to say thank you for inviting me on the podcast. I'm really, really excited. And honestly, I feel like it's a privilege just to be on this as a guest and to share a little bit of my knowledge. So thank you. Wow. Yeah. So mindfulness, right? It has become that that word, that buzzword, you know, everyone uses it, whether it's from corporate to the clinical setting. So, and this is important for us as clinicians to really understand the true nature of it, right? You touched on the definition before, but what it really is, it's an awareness of the present moment and specifically with no judgment. And so often we are thinking, thinking, thinking about the to-do list about what happened yesterday about your presentation, right? Like we are always thinking, thinking, and we're really never taking a moment to just come into our body and to breathe and to say, okay, I've done what I have to do for today. And tomorrow will be a new day type of thing, right, to kind of ground ourselves and center ourselves. So at its core, right, mindfulness is something, it's the essence of like traditional Buddhist teaching, Buddhist Dharma. But the reason why it's kind of common to mainstream, Western culture is through Kabat Zen, John Kabat Zen, I don't know if you heard of his name, but he is the major player, like I like to say, he's really the guy that brought it to the Western culture and really made it more palatable, right? He kind of, we can say whitewasher, just palatable, whichever way. But it's not right. It's not a Buddhist practice, the way in which we practice it in the Western country and then Western culture is really just like the essence of being present and aware and non-judgmental, non-attachment, stuff like that. So that's kind of, that's really what it is definition wise. Yeah. So, okay, that's a good starting point because already I have a million, not a million, but a couple of questions. Yeah. One is, I mean, there's a couple of words that stick out, right? It's like not to have judgment. I mean, that is a practice that I think is a lifelong practice, right? And I don't know if it means judgment of oneself or judgment of others. But I think about my own vocabulary or thought processes where I'm constantly thinking about what I should be feeling or should be doing, really towards looking at what I want for myself, right? So maybe there's a little bit more evolution in terms of it just being strictly judging that I'm doing something wrong. It's about how do I want to shift that into what I do want for myself. And then I think about judgment and I think about biases because I teach a course on diversity and I think how I tell my students that I don't know if the goal is not to have biases because that wouldn't be human, but it's to be aware of them, understand where they come from, manage them and maybe strive towards shifting that perspective. So you know, to just hear this idea about, to work towards or to be in a place where there's a judgment-free zone, can you say more about that? Yeah, yeah, and you know what, it's so true, we're human. At the end of the day, we're not robots. We can't just program our brain to not have judgment. And I want to say what's coming up for me most as you're talking about this is this idea that judgment has to be or self-criticism has to be punitive, right? We've kind of adapted that this belief that, you know, in order to really do better to achieve, to succeed, to get to that next position, place, and life, we have to be really critical and mindfulness, what it has allowed, you know, not just for me to understand about myself and maybe life in general, but we can accept where we are and we can see the areas for improvement. It doesn't need to be this punitive narrative, right? We can say, okay, you know what, I'm noticing that I am really, really critical of myself right now. Okay, right? That doesn't feel good, right? Like giving ourselves that validation, really tapping into like, this isn't helpful for me in this moment, and I know this is going to be hard and I'm going to continue, you know, working towards this. I know that I'm trying my best, right? I know that I'm going to, you know, hopefully succeed or, you know, whatever the case is, whatever you're stressed out about. So yeah, right? There's no, it's not a sense of being just judgment free and like, woo, woo, you know, like living on a, you know, living on a cloud here, it's more so like, listen, life hits us and that's so valid and it's okay, like we're allowed to have those hard moments. It doesn't define or label or, yeah, categorize us as inherently bad, right? So would you consider it as a reflective practice? And then I think, well, now what makes this different from meditation? Because you also use the term being in the present moment, right, the idea of that. And that's certainly what I think of the basis of meditation. I don't do it. I don't do it. Yeah, yeah, anyway, I'll practice that and I imagine how helpful that is. But I'm wondering like what's the distinguishing factor and how is mindfulness and therapy different from mindfulness as a wellness trend? Yeah. Yeah. So I would say meditation is mindfulness embodied, right? Meditation is the act of just sitting with yourself, breathing, and simply, you know, first, really just noticing what comes up for you, right? Just, oh, I'm thinking about the laundry. Oh, I'm thinking about that shopping list I have to get done before the weekend, right? Just noticing, not placing the plan, the judgment, you know, the to-do list, just noticing. So that's mindfulness. I mean, that's meditation, right? Kind of just sitting with your breath, sitting with your thoughts. So, mindfulness is, you know, it can, it can encompass a various, encompass various different activities. So it could be like a body scan, right? It could be progressive muscle relaxation. It could simply be tapping into your senses. This is one that I, you know, usually like to introduce to clients who are new to mindfulness. Topping into your senses, one thing that you can smell, see, taste. touch and and here. That you're choosing or that comes to you as you're cleansing your your you know your thoughts. So whatever so let's say right now we could we could I'm actually going to ask you right so if you can tell me one thing that you can see smell here taste and feel. But like literally or I'm going to identify something in my vision. Oh, like physically yes like physically tell me like you can see a lamp. You can you know you feel the seat underneath your butt right. Okay. So I see my computer screen. I'm looking at us on the screen. I feel yes my legs elevated on a chair under me. I hear here I hear our conversation. Yep. And a little rattling in the background. I taste whatever had last in my mouth a kickcat. Yeah. And what's left. I think I hit four senses. I feel I smell I smell not the much right now. Okay. Okay. Yes. So this that by doing that you are not in the future you're not in the past you are truly analyzing what is happening right now. What do I smell right now right it's taking you from you know out of your body into your body. So this is one skill one mindfulness skill that's very tangible for most people and really does allow them to allow my clients to feel a sense of just grounding a sense of control especially those who struggle with anxiety. Just thinking that I can see that. Yes. Okay. Right. Right. Right. Getting away from the anxious thoughts and just right moving. Okay. Right. Right. So that would be I would say as an example to differentiate the two meditation is is truly just sitting with yourself and being aware of the thoughts that are coming up non-judgmentally. And then mindfulness is more of the act I guess of bringing yourself to what's happening currently for yourself. I can do a body scan progressive muscle relaxation of a five senses exercise, stuff like that. So well so I know we're going to get into those because I really want to see what this looks like you know and and help people who are listening understand the different aspects that they could potentially engage in. So my first question is do you need somebody to help you do this to guide mindfulness for you. And then you learn to do it on your own. Like now I would have never known but now I could say okay get with five senses right. I could do that. Right. I mean yeah. So like you can do it on your own. YouTube is a wonderful resource right. You can totally self-learn. Again John Cabitzen has apps. He has this one app. He has his masterclass on YouTube. He has his book which is really where my understanding of the impact of mindfulness-based stress reduction came from. So that that's actually it's a thick book but it's a great book with a bunch of exercises, breaks down the science and biology of your nervous system and the impact of mindfulness. So yes you can absolutely teach yourself it but you know some people choose to you know engage in the people go to like meditation centers or they engage in yoga or you know other type of environment second really bolster or even give them to accountability in a sense of like really trying to learn this skill because it's a skill. Yes and would you say that it's something that grounds you in the moment or the more you do it the more it stays with you and you're in kind of and forgive me if I'm overusing the word you know like in a Zen state you're in a more relaxed space just generally or is it a coping skill for when you're feeling dysregulated. Right. I think it starts off that way for most people and the more that you integrate it into your life every day it becomes a I like to say it becomes like a part of your days it's a part of your life then right if we engage in it intentionally every day. So yeah I would say at first it is a very tangible skill, very tangible tool but it you know it can and most for most people that find it helpful it tends to really be a part of who they are and their everyday life. Right it becomes a practice. Yeah so I'm very interested in the types of practice as I said and what kind speak to you but just before that I want to understand how not how we're gonna get to the how when is it introduced and used in therapy in your therapy practice. Yeah aside from it being in my bio and you know people can read that I like to introduce it in my intake right hey this is what you can expect from me right I'd take a cognitive behavioral approach however I'm also really inclined to use contemplative practices like mindfulness, like meditation and some people are like oh that's great you know I'm really into that and some people are like okay sure maybe you know so I got to get the buy-in so that's you know so that's primarily right that's where I like to introduce it um but then when I'm feeling the need or not feeling mean what I sense have my clinical spidey sense is going off that my client is like highly dysregulated right now in session they could be crying they could be angry right they could whatever you know they could be processing just a really intense moment right for me my spidey sense is say okay their nervous system is out of whack right now right a lot a big part of the therapeutic relationship is modeling right modeling that safety that stability that calm so what I tend to do you know is say you know let's after they've you know process for 30 25 30 minutes right and then they're just like tears are done and we're you know we can feel that heaviness I like to say you know I would like for us to just kind of catch our breath and take a minute to just regulate our nervous system and you know some people most of my clients even those who aren't don't have the biggest buying-in agree you know okay all right so and I will guide them I'll say you know let's take a deep breath here let's close our eyes or look down right and that tends to get a little people get a little awkward but I model it with them in front of them I am closing my eyes I'm having my hands on my chest and let's just take three deep breaths in and out right and I I do that with them I have my eyes closed for it I'm breathing audibly for them to hear right and that right there doing it in the moment when your nervous system is dysregulated is tends to be extremely powerful right and then we're able to become more cognitive right but if the body is dysregulated if somatically we're dysregulated cognitively we're not in a place to really look at it in a way that in therapy right in a therapeutic way that we can reflect on it and maybe consider different perspectives or tools or you know whatever other interventions you want to provide so that's what it would look like in my sessions and typically how I do introduce this with clients let me just tell you the analogy that just came to my mind I was thinking like if you're working with somebody who abuses substances you can't really work with them some people believe this that you can't really work with them if they come into the session higher use high on substances right and so I don't know if this is an appropriate analogy but it makes me think about you know almost interrupting the session or like you said after they get it all out the emotional processes and they're in the emotion and they need to kind of get that place of calm or grounding as you refer before you can continue or maybe even end the session and feel okay about sending them back out in the world right that this is that that moment that kind of propels them forward or gives them that sense of safety yeah I don't know why the analogy came up to substance abuse because it really doesn't make sense the more you're it but no I'm just thinking like you know if somebody isn't such a state of flux or dysregulation you can't really work with them in that moment right you can provide a holding environment for their emotions and allow them to be and allow them to have and be non judgmental and all of that but for you to then kind of continue right they have to kind of come down and I guess that that's what this is insinuating so you've given us two techniques you've given us the five senses and you've given us breathing right yeah are there any other ways that you work with clients to do this practice and how do you choose which you're going to implement yeah great great question so I would say depending on the client right we you know we get to know our clients we get to know maybe what they would be you know willing to do or what they're open to I will say I'm kind of giving it to you in ways in which I kind of scaffold for my clients so right five senses really really easy and then we then my can see hey can we get control just sitting with ourselves right I will you know suggest breathing following that you know and let's see if it lands right let's see if they are able to maybe integrate it in their time in between sessions right so see they're essentially they're buying how much is this really helping them how much are they willing to engage in an outside of therapeutic room so with that being said if I'm if I'm finding that you know this client could be essentially into it like I I will provide let's say another exercise which would be like a body scan right and the tip typically the body scan that I do in session I mean they can they vary in length but mine are pretty short there may be like five minutes right because we only have a 45-50 minute feeling so and I can actually I have one here I have it on my screen just because I'd like to have it just to guide me and I mean I can read it with you we can kind of go through it together sure but the more I'm hearing about these things the more I'm now getting confused about how this again differentiates from meditation because I'm not having a real grounding in meditation or mindfulness I was thinking about teaching a class recently and the intensity was really high it was a one student was processing a case that they're working on in their internship and it was deep and you could feel the class responding even though nobody was verbally responding you could feel it and I thought to myself oh my god I got to be prepared with some kind of meditation exercise to kind of close the class out get them back to you know baseline and what I came across in my youtube search were things like a body scan things like imagining a place where you can you know a beach is the typical kind of I think pictorial used but where you can kind of get in touch with your five senses so I don't know if you can answer that but now I'm getting more confused yeah no I think for me and I'm just one person so but I would say the distinction between the two is meditation is truly a sitting practice right is truly sit on the ground or you sit on a meditation cushion and we sit and we breathe okay that's it okay right mindful so mindfulness is meditation right I'm hoping I'm gonna say hopefully I said it's right meditation is mindfulness but mindfulness doesn't always include meditation okay okay so again meditation is mindfulness however mindfulness can also look like a body scan it can look like a mindful walk right that's something I like to give clients an activity to do walk outside no headphones just listen to the sounds the leaves crunching right try and feel your foot in your sneaker or your shoe right feel the wind on your body right that's something a bit more active okay whereas meditation again in my understanding in the way in which I approach it is meditation is truly a sitting intentional breath work session almost okay but so now you're out on a walk and you're paying attention to all of the senses and everything around you and being present in the moment which goes back to your original definition where does the no judgment come in the no judgment come so that's such a great that's a great um this is where the skills of meditation can be implemented with these other activities so where does this come in essentially right we're walking let's say I'm walking in the park and I'm trying really hard to focus on the leaves and trying hard to focus on the breeze but I'm like shoot I really have to make that phone call I you know what let me just pick up my phone really let me just open my phone oh and now I'm scrolling oh now I'm looking at emails right so noticing and that's that's typical right that's okay we are wired in a way especially in today's day and age right we're addicted to the phone listen right it's okay Natalie let's get back to our mindfulness it's okay that we just doom scrolled for 15 minutes I know it doesn't feel great I know it feels like we let ourselves down but let's go back let's come back let's put the phone away let's come back to our body okay right so that's kind of that shift and I think it's really I think that there's a misconception that in order to be to practice mindfulness or meditation you need to be perfect from the start like you need to have zero distraction or your mind just can't wander no it's almost like that's supposed it's supposed to happen and how do you respond to yourself when your mind wanders okay are we responding with judgment because typically if we respond with judgment we're like shoot we suck I suck at this I'm not doing it anymore so there's an element in this about being kind to yourself too right doing some like positive self-talk yeah compassion yeah compassion okay all right thank you all right so I took us off the beaten path so let's get back to the body scan yeah all right so and this is just again one brief example so I'd like to you know invite you to find a comfortable position typically right we would sit with our feet on the ground on cross your legs you can put your hands on your lap and feel the sensation of your of your palms on your thighs and when you're ready where you can take a deep breath in you can close your eyes take a deep breath out and just allow your chest to kind of rise and fall naturally and I will guide you through this body scan so just don't do this listeners if you're driving don't do this come back to this piece fast forward right now we're gonna talk about other things like how to Natalie know this type of practice would work or speak to her and what happens when she gets activated in session from clients because as therapists we do so fast forward this come back to this if you need to or be with us in the moment right yes yes all right so bring your attention to your breath and just notice the natural rise and fall of your chest so feel the air moving in through your nose and out through your mouth if your mind wanders throughout this exercise it's okay just bring it back to your breath and you can even say to yourself in through my nose out through my mouth all right I'd like for you to shift your focus to the top of your head notice any sensations any warmth tingling in itch do you feel your headphones is it sitting quite right on your head or over your ear right just awareness don't fix anything just to wear move down to your forehead and eyes are they holding tension if so try and relax your face right relax your eyebrows relax that muscle now bring your awareness to your jaw notice is it clenched if it is can we allow our jaw to loosen up and relax deep breath in deep breath out notice if your tongue is resting on the roof of your mouth it is let it relax so continue scanning downward to your shoulders many of us carry attention here what do you notice do you feel tight tightness anywhere instead of resisting it allow it to happen right you might actually want to roll your shoulders if that makes it feel a little bit better but just acknowledge where that tightness is right typically for me it's like the right side of my trap or mental piezas muscle and so we're just noticing now shift your focus to your arms hands and fingertips do you feel warmth coolness maybe heaviness again just awareness of that sensation is what we're looking for and lastly bring awareness to your chest and back. You can put your hand on your chest, and you can just observe the natural rise and fall. And notice any tension in your chest or in your back. A lot of times we carry that anxiety or that emotional discomfort in our chest. So just acknowledging if it feels heavy there. When you're ready, you can open your eyes. And that would be, this is a very abridged brief example, but that would be, you know, an exercise I would do with the client. I'm wondering how it left you feeling. Yeah, I think it's really curious that when I think that I'm in a relaxed position, how unrelexed I really am. You don't realize until you say kind of like drop, you know, drop the shoulders or, you know, like really relax once I forget the exact wording you use. But it's like, oh, I can go another layer, right? I can go another step further. And you know, I never realized how much you just hold your body like even when you're not aware that you're holding your body. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that's exactly right. We start to notice where we hold tension. And for me, right, working with a client, that's important for me and for the client to identify where they hold tension, right? Because as soon as we start to feel the tension, hopefully that could be a red light, right, or a flag for us, say, hey, we need to slow down, right? We need to take a breath. We need to take a minute, right, whatever it is. Would this be considered like part of the mind body connection that you're using your body to kind of help you understand what's happening with you psychically as opposed to the other way around, which we often, I think, come at it from, right? And apps, I mean, yeah, absolutely, that's the, that's the big point or the big shift, I would say. And actually, I think it goes into your questions like, how did I find myself in this realm? Because cognitively, right? Like, there was only so much thinking could do for me. And I think for many people, right? And sometimes thinking about a trigger or a trauma, a relationship is really hard. And sometimes either we can't, we, we're almost like afraid of that emotional release. So we just continue to analyze, we continue to talk, right? But nothing really changes, right? So when the client is able to release, have a moment to sit by themselves, it, it almost becomes an example that they can create that we can create safety in ourselves and our body, not just in the therapy room, but hopefully right anywhere, wherever you are. So, yes, it takes us from the cognitive realm. And it really brings us into the somatic and embodied, you know, physiological understanding. Because at the end of the day, you know, if we're thinking of this clinically, a lot of, we see a lot of this with anxiety, depression, you know, just life transitions in general. It's a stressor, right? When stress, when we are met with a stressor, no matter if it's a trauma, right, or a deadline for a paper, it's a stressor. And our body responds because we have this wonderful nervous system that tries to protect us. And we can get more into that. But, but yeah, I mean, I just think it's so interesting because now I'm thinking about all of these techniques, whether it's EMDR, right, tapping hypnosis, psychedelics, and they're all mindfulness. They're all working to do the same thing in a way, right? Is to kind of release the stored up trauma so that you can get to a different place, whatever that place may be, you know, the focus might be a little different amongst those techniques. But you're all trying to release, relax, get past, move through. And so, yeah, that does bring me to, I guess, I don't know if this is where you were going, but how this intersects with trauma-informed care. Yeah. So you talked about anxiety, and that makes a lot of sense, right? Right. And now maybe you could kind of shift how this also aligns with your theoretical orientation within that. Yeah, absolutely. So it's us needing today really came up such a timely moment. If, you know, you or your listeners are aware of any type of like trauma-informed literature out there, maybe you've heard of the term polyvagal theory. Just like last week or two weeks ago, maybe the drama of the polyvagal and these neuroscientists and physiologists kind of came to share some, some things that came to light. And I was like, Oh, wow, this is a lot for me to take in to understand. And then also either maybe adjust my practices or, you know, explain things differently. But I can kind of get into that once I kind of give you this feel here. But right. So into my theoretical orientation, I think for me at the base level, like, I love to provide skills, right? So again, I'm very much like CBT focus, solution focused. But I also know that emotionally, we feel it, right? And I was something was missing. Like something for me was missing. I, for my own personal experience, I was on this like hamster wheel. That's what I call it. A running, running, running, running, wouldn't give myself a break, right? The couch? Why do I even have a couch? I don't sit on the couch, right? Like, I don't give myself a minute to watch a show. And all I was doing was thinking. And I, I truly needed something to slow myself down. And just through my own practice and my own therapy and my own, you know, meditation and yoga practice, I really found the sense of calm and reassurance that I could provide myself was like really change, like life changing for me. So it, you know, I believe it's like a really nice add on to my theoretical approach. Right. And I think as most things do, they start with ourselves in terms of our practice or why something speaks to us. But how did you stumble upon mindfulness? Like, you knew you needed something, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny enough. I was introduced to it in my undergrad through, you know, elective courses that I needed to, like, graduate, I needed anything, right? I needed yoga class to finish that one credit. Right. So there was a little bit of that. I would say that's more of like the, the zeitgeist rate of like what, what this wellness trend is. And then it was really my master's program. I'm in my, my master's program for, for counseling. I was, I think like most grad students was struggling with handling it all, right? Like, I was living on my own for the first time. I was a GA. I was working 40 hours a week. I was trying to, you know, succeed in my graduate program. I was thinking about practical internship right up. There came a point where I was just like, something needs to give, right? I'm really, I'm going really fast. And my therapist at the time, she was just like, do you know what mindfulness is? And I was like, rolled my eyes. I was like, yeah, like what? That sounds so stupid. I remember like, I remember being like, that's a load of beer. And she would just, you know, gently encourage me here and there, drop some sea, you know, drop some hints. And finally, I remember this. I sat down in my, I shared an apartment with my two other girlfriends. And I was like, guys, I need to practice mindfulness. My therapist keeps on saying it. So can you guys do it with me? Right? And we put it on YouTube. And we did like, I forgot what it was, but it was like a basic mindfulness. And all of us were like, wow, like we feel so good right now. Like this felt really nice. I mean, I'm lucky that my girlfriends were like willing to engage with me. But yeah, I know that's a little bit of a personal story. But that's kind of what allowed me to, I mean, truly sit on my couch. Like when I tell you, I didn't sit on my couch, never sat on it until I gave myself that permission to say, no, it's okay to slow down. Yeah. So when you have a client who's resistant to the idea or does that kind of eye rolling, do you self disclose? It's, I thought that too. I mean, yeah, it depends. But yeah, you know, well, they know now, well, they write exactly, I like to validate, you know, I know it's not for everyone. And I get it. I get that this seems super woo-woo and silly, right. And, you know, I still say, can we try? Can we try something, right? Can we just take a minute to, even just to breathe? Uh-huh. Um, so yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I think those moments are great. They'll shared moments with clients. Because it makes it human, and humanizes you, right? And, uh, maybe makes them a little bit more receptive to the idea. So, I was thinking about how, you know, tough for us as therapists sometimes to sit with clients in their deep emotional reactions and responses and we're kind of charged with the idea of holding those feelings for them, giving them that container, that place where they can feel safe to express it. And we need to engage in self-care practices. Maybe that is mindfulness, right? But in the moment, when you're in the moment and you're sitting with a client and you're getting that sense of overwhelmness or that sense of sadness or whatever it is, right? That you're holding for them. Are you able to do aspects of mindfulness in the moment or how do you get through those moments to help you tolerate those experiences? - Right, yeah, I think it's so, and this is something that I really like to share with my students, like, we're, again, we're not robots, we will feel impacted by our clients, experiences, and stories, and it's really important for us to catch our own emotional reaction. One, 'cause that tells us something about ourselves and tells us something that we may need to process in supervision. So, but for me, yeah, I mean, it's a moment where, and I think maybe you can relate to this where the client is unpacking something and you start to go this way in your head and then now you're like, shoot, like, I'm now, not in therapy with, I'm not in my job right now. I'm in my own shit. I mean, I'm stewing in my shit, sorry. Right, and I think it's, again, it's the, for me, the practice of being like, let's take, as I'm here, let's take a deep breath, right? No one needs to know, take a deep breath. Allow myself to breathe and say, let's focus back on what Amy is saying. Right, so that's so interesting, because I'm a psychodynamic psychotherapist, and for me, there's information in where I got distracted, not only about myself, right, and my reaction to them, but is there also a transference in that, am I responding to the real them and how other people might be experiencing them? Or, you know, can it tell me about what they're experiencing? But so I'm using it, and to me it's very important to use it. You're talking about being able to ground yourself to come back and be present for them, but I don't see it as like such a, I don't know if you're saying negative, but whatever. Like, you know, I need to come back to them, because I'm still with them, even though I'm away from them, because it just makes sense. I'm like, what just happened here? Absolutely. And I think, I absolutely, I think there's so much to that when we are able to say that's really, you know, that's really sad or, you know, or I'm feeling an emotional response as you're sharing them. Right, I think that's a powerful intervention in the counseling room, where I find where this non-judgment awareness of the present moment is helpful, is when maybe we fear we can't bring ourselves back to the, to the client, you know, fully. Where we get so lost in the sauce with them that we then don't even know, like, now we feel like we're floundering a little bit. So it's a tool for that more so than, you know, that anything else as an intervention for a client. That makes a lot of sense. That's great, okay. Have you found that there are misconceptions about mindfulness? Yeah, there's a misconception that mindfulness comes easy. Mindfulness is this easy woo-woo hippy-dippy thing that, you know, makes me happier. Uh-huh. And in reality, it's the opposite. It's hard. It's difficult. It's, it's a practice. I always say to my clients and to my students, it's a skill, it's a muscle. We have to do more of it in order for it to really feel impactful and embodied. And it's also, especially with meditation, allowing your mind to just wander and see what comes up can bring up some really hard things. Well, it requires letting go of also, right? Not being in control of what happens. And I wonder, yeah, interesting. So that I think, you know, no, mindfulness is really hard, right? It's really hard to sit with what's coming up. Maybe it's that negative narrative you have of yourself and it's awful. And now we're asking you to sit with it and listen to it. That sounds, like that's impossible, right? So it's hard. It's hard. And I think it's actually really like gritty work sometimes to be like, this is what's going on in my head. And because of it, I feel so anxious. I feel depressed. Right? I'm in this negative head space. But if I can bring myself back with compassion and say, that is really hard. That was very traumatic. And I'm going to regulate myself. I'm not going to try and analyze it. I'm not going to try and come up with a response in my head to that person. I am just going to let it let the sensations come and actively slow my nervous system down. But see, when it's when you explain what it is that I can understand it being a little hard to grasp fearful, right? Because you're not in control of what's going to come up. Stereotypes about the woo-wooness of it. But maybe the woo-wooness of it is the fact that people don't understand what it is, right? And it's not really explained well. It's curious. I mean, I don't know what the conversion rate is. So to speak, you know, of those people who are doubtful, skeptical, and then, you know, do buy in. Well, I have to say, for the listener's room, for you, I mean, John Cuvittson's book, Full Catastrophe Living, is remarkable. I mean, he's created the mindfulness-based stress reduction clinic. But the book is great because it kind of brings you-- it's very conversational. And he shares with you the pushback that he's gotten from his patients. And you know, this is the change that has happened over time. And I think, for me, really being able to provide that psycho-education to my clients about what is happening within your body, right? I think that also allows them to see that this is rooted in evidence, right? There's a lot of evidence, especially with trauma and stress, right? When we are faced with a trauma or with a stressor, our nervous system, right? Fighter flight freeze happens, right? So what mindfulness does is like-- it's like the am to do it, right? The fighter flight freeze are ramping up. We're going. We're activated. And mindfulness is like the brakes. It allows us. It allows our body to come to a place of regulation. And this is where the debate of this whole polybagal theory comes in. And it's more so about the semantics of like the literally like the brain cell or the brainstem. I'm sorry. That anything else in there is merit to that critique. But it doesn't take away the fact that, yes, like, we need safety. We need co-regulation in order to work through our disregulated nervous system. So I like to provide that very like understandable, really approachable background. No, I think you've been successful in doing that. So I think that the last piece that I think would be really helpful is if you could provide an example of a timing your practice, where mindfulness really shifted the outcome, where there was a tangible outcome you could see. Yeah, for a client? Yeah. Yeah. She's one of my clients I still see today. She was one that is open to mindfulness. But like, everyone else, it's something that's like aspirational, right? So there was this one session. I'll say probably back when we first started, maybe like two years ago. And she was crying, right? Like really, really just processing something really difficult. And she was very emotional, right? And I really, what I said to you earlier is what we did, right? Hey, this is really hard. Can we just, let's take a couple of deep breaths. Let's give ourselves that safety. Let's give yourself that safety. And by doing that, I think really show, because her history involves her really not being protected and not being safe growing up. I think by her seeing that she can get herself to a place of regulation of calm, was really impactful for her. Like she was like, oh, I can do that. Like myself, I can do this myself. Wow. And not to say she's like, you know, a Buddhist now. But like, right, it has been a really powerful tool that we come back to in session. Or that she says, you know what Natalie? [BLANK_AUDIO] try to integrate mindfulness or a meditation at least like once a week out to the session. That's amazing. I love that, right? But it's that I think it's like that, that what do we call it, corrective emotional experience? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm also thinking about soothing. You know, if you've never been soothed, how do you learn how to self-sooth? So, you know, and that causes such emotional dysregulation. And so to give somebody a tool where, you know, again, I can't help by making the analogy to what I do, right? The idea is that hopefully a client can internalize my voice, what, you know, the soothing, just reassurance or validation or whatever might be that I offer them just through natural interpersonal relationship, but they don't have that kind voice themselves. So, you know, over time takes a lot of time. They internalize that. It becomes their own. That's the hope, right? And one day you won't need me to do that for you. And so, I think about the role that this plays in that very similar way is that you're giving them a very concrete tool that they can use and they need you and your guidance to provide that. I'm sure more than once for a while. And then to be able to, wow, what a moment. I mean, I could feel that when you said it, like to be able to say, wow, I can actually, you know, hold myself. I can put a warm blanket around myself and feel okay. You know, I don't have to call five friends and try and find the one that's actually gonna mirror me or, you know, say what I need, you know, yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. Or I'll even say two in a different way in which this has been really impactful for my clients is for some clients who really avoid emotion, right? And it's so, it's almost like these little pockets of like where I'm like, oh, like we're gonna, we're gonna put the bear here. And where they're bringing up something stressful, you know, frustrating, sad, anxiety-producing, self-same, you name it. If I'm finding a hint of that underlying what they're talking about, I just say, can we just stop right here? And can we just sit with what you just said about yourself? Mm-hmm. Right. And typically, right, the person who pushes that emotion away that wants to analyze, it wants to think it through, woof, the emotion, like the, the catharsis that comes from being like, oh wow, yeah, that was really intense or that was really harsh. And now let's sit with it. I was just thinking that because you took a pause to sit with that to, right, to help them sit with it, to be able to experience it, tolerate it. It makes me think when you say you don't have time for your couch, why do you have one? Because going, going, going, going, we don't take the time to just be, to ever just be. And some of us do that intentionally, right? Because you're scared with what you're going to be left with, right? And so when they call it out, they're like, oh no, Natalie. Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. I'll tell you, this honestly has made me think like, oh, I want to try this. Like there's, I want to try this on my practice. I need to read about it a little bit more, get more familiar with it, because I think that it sounds very easy to just like, oh, I'll take somebody through a body scan or I'll, you know, ask them to get in touch with their five senses, but you got to know a little bit more about what to do with it, how to read what they're saying, how to be with them in the moment. And I think something I've taken away from it is it's not as simple as it sounds in a way. It's not as simple as it sounds in the sense that, let me think about how I want to word that. I don't know. I think it's kind of like been disregarded as, as you're saying, in evidence-based practice or as like this woo woo thing. So it doesn't have like stature connected to it, you know, and on the other hand, it's simple enough that one can integrate this into their daily life or however you practice therapy or working with other people. And so it's manageable and it's workable. And it, it sounds like it has the potential to be so impactful. So why not, you know, give it a try. And I have to say, right, the idea that we need, and this, I mean this with, you know, with, with context, I guess, the idea that we need all of these resources and tools to help us become quote unquote normal really discredits the fact that we as humans, like our bodies, if we just listen to ourselves, right, we can provide ourselves at safety. Obviously, right, medication is needed and right, coping skills are needed, but the idea that you yourself can heal or you yourself can provide yourself with safety. I think we've kind of lost that, that authority that we have over ourselves. We don't, we don't realize that about ourselves. Right. And maybe that's the piece about simplicity that I want to clarify is that it sounds like this is something anybody can learn, even though as you said, it might not come naturally. And so don't get frustrated with it. Right. But if you keep at it soon enough, it sounds like soon enough, you can get the hang of it. And it can have such a positive outcome rather, rather quickly. Yeah. So I buy in, and I mean that for real, like I really feel like you made this tangible, manageable, you know, like it's concretized, it's digestible, and I want to try it on. Yeah. And I guess I got to try it on myself too. I should say where I read about it and try it with my clients. I'm going to try it on myself as well. That would be the one thing I would share with any therapist, if you're going to, if you would like to integrate this into your practice, really try to do it yourself. Right. It will come across just like with anything in therapy, right, the genuineness, it'll come across when you know how hard it is, when you know that your mind, when you know how judgmental you are to yourself, right, we have to kind of live it first in a way. So yeah, I would suggest, you know, embodying it yourself, unless I'm not perfect going practice it every single day, right, and I have a newborn now. So I, but I find myself, like, oh, I really need to come back into my body, like I, right. So, wait, wait, wait, what happened to the judgment? No judgment. Right. No judgment. No one, you don't do it every day. Who says you have to do it every day? What do we do every day? Right. Right. Anyway, Natalie, soon to be doctor. Yes. Where do you want to draw people towards your website? Do you want people to come to you and practice mindfulness? You want to give a shout out about anything? Absolutely. I mean, if you are interested in working with me, you can find my information on psychology today, or through headway. You can find my information and check up my availability. And, you know, I love to continue working and hopefully providing the right type of support that people need. So, okay. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Natalie Meavis, N-I-E-V-E-S. Thank you so much. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. Thanks for listening. I really do appreciate it. If you like what you heard, please consider leading a rating and review on your podcast platform. And don't forget to subscribe, so you don't miss my next episode. If you're struggling with clients, I'm happy to consult or provide supervision. Consultations are also available for any person listening. If you're struggling with sibling abuse, you may want to join my sibling abuse workshops. I'm open to feedback on topics you'd like to hear or questions, so feel free to email me at [email protected]. You may be interested as well in checking out my blogs on my website at Amymyersphd.org. Don't point me in any direction. Clinical guidance is what I need to help me become who I'm going to be. I've been searching for a teacher another point of view. And I've been asking myself, what would drmyers do?