Episode 132: An Update and Vision for Marine Renewables in Canada with Elisa Obermann

[MUSIC] I think we need a really coordinated approach amongst industry, federal and provincial governments, indigenous peoples, coastal communities, researchers, all of the above approach to how we move ahead. [MUSIC] Francis here from electricity Canada. Welcome to another episode of the flux capacitor, a podcast about the future of electricity. It's 2026 and this is number 132, episode 132 of the flux capacitor. I've been chatting with the industry's business leaders, thought leaders, new market players and stakeholders. I've built this as an opportunity for you, the listener to get a sense of the conversations that are taking place in the sector, in hallways over coffee, outside of parliamentary committees, in airport lounges and at industry events. My guest on the podcast today is-- Elisa Oberman, executive director at Marine Renewables Canada. Elissa joined me for an update on what's new in the Marine Renewables space, a space on the verge of big changes and growth. We talk about the future vision of the sector. The role Marine Renewables will play in remote and indigenous communities. The current state and prospects for title, offshore wind, wave and river current energy. We also talk about the need for more coordinated regional planning. Supply chain challenges and the potential impacts of trade pressures. Elissa emphasizes the need for regulatory certainty to attract investments and ensure the sector's competitiveness. We close the conversation with her recommendation for an addition to the flux capacitor book club. Here is my conversation with Elissa Oberman recorded on Zoom in mid-January, 2026. Elissa, welcome to the podcast. Thanks. Thanks very much for having me. Yeah, it's been, I think, probably two and a half years. We had a good chat in 2020. Well, I'm like, it was 2022, I guess it was. So a little bit more than that. But I thought it would be really timely to check in because, man, the world has changed, you know, half dozen times over since the last time we talked. And I thought it would be great to do a check in on what is taking place in the marine renewables sort of space. But why don't we start with maybe a bit of a definition for the listener. So they understand when we're talking about marine renewables, what is it that we're talking about specifically? So there are several different types of marine renewable energy resources and technologies. The ones that we focus on are title energy. And when I say title energy, I mean title stream energy. So the difference there is that the technology we're focused on are title energy devices or turbines that can be deployed incrementally, not barrages or dams, which are, you know, a older technology, not as environmentally acceptable, I would say. Okay. Offshore wind is another marine renewable energy that we are focused on. And I'm sure we'll talk a lot about that as well because there's been a lot of activity in that area. Yeah. So we're focused on energy energy as well and river current energy. And I can't recall if in the last time we talked, I mentioned the reason we look at river current energy. One is that it's abundant across the country. Every province has this resource, but the technology itself is very similar to title turbines. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we see a lot of the same technology developers that are developing title devices also looking at river current opportunities. Okay. The title stream energy offshore wind wave energy and river current energy, the principle areas of focus. And then as an organization, well, you know, when we talked last time, we talked about, you know, East Coast, West Coast, but if you're talking river as well, I guess that kind of gets you beyond simply offshore and it's marine. But previously, you know, we were always talking about what's happening on the oceans, but this is marine environments writ large, not simply those that are salty. Yeah. And so I would say with with river current, the areas of the country where our members have been active have mainly been around remote communities, indigenous communities, where they have a river resource, you know, that lends that opportunity to them where, you know, eventually solar wind may not be as viable in that area. But river current of all the technologies, I would say, is probably more emerging. There's still a lot more work to be done, particularly in Canada where, you know, in some of those regions, they're quite north. So there's issues like ice that people have to deal with, understanding those kinds of things. So it's not as well known, I think, because of that. But it's definitely an opportunity that some of our members and developers have been looking at in partnership with indigenous communities who have some interest in exploring that technology. Yeah, you know, I came across one of those developers, a Canadian company. And I think it was at a probability a conference a couple of years ago, it might have been at the big distribute tech, which is, you know, the next one is happening in a couple of weeks time. But it was a Canadian based company. And they were, you know, as you suggested, they're developing this specifically for remote communities, for off-grid communities as an opportunity to reduce dependence on diesel, to kind of clean up the communities, and to use something that's sustainable. I thought it was a really interesting pitch. And it seems to be a little further advanced than I would have thought. There's a lot of. Exactly. I think that the challenge has always been just finding the investment and finance supports for some of these technologies. But when it comes to remote and indigenous communities, I mean, one of the things that has been a benefit when it comes to marine renewable energy, and there's been some studies around this, is that those technologies actually come in at a lower cost in diesel. So there's automatically a business case there. Right. And we have also found that some indigenous communities who are very attached to water, like, you know, that's a really part of their culture, have been very intrigued by the idea of being able to use marine renewable energy as, you know, to help with their energy sovereignty. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I want to kind of go through all of the other bits and pieces. But, you know, we're already partway down this rabbit hole. When we chatted a couple of years ago, we didn't get on to the topic of remote and indigenous communities. But this one is one that, I mean, I think it's certainly a topic that is critically important given, you know, our desire to, I guess, kind of reassert Canadian sovereignty over Canadian territory. And so this is going to be critically important. I mean, intrigued when you say that lower cost than diesel for these technologies, what do you think is the barrier? Is it the capital outlay? Is it, you know, diesel, diesel, while it may be more expensive, is just a, you know, a minor, you know, there's no massive capital outlay that's required because there's existing systems there that are in place. And it's just a matter of putting more diesel and burning it. I would say, if you think, I mean, one, it's just not as well known. And the technologies aren't necessarily off the shelf, right? So, I mean, a lot of these developers are still in the process of really proving the technology and ensuring that it's reliable, that it can withstand, you know, some of the challenges presented by the more harsh marine environments. But the other is when you bring a technology like that to a remote community and we've found this with some of the pilot projects, there has to be a team there that can also deal with the, oh, and app, like the operations and maintenance with the project. And sometimes those skills just aren't in those communities yet. And I'd say that, that's one of the bigger factors. And you obviously don't want to leave a community vulnerable to that risk and have them rely on something where they can't, you know, deal with the maintenance around it. The other is, I think, around, and this is, you know, has been true with all marine renewable energy wherever, maybe in the country is the regulatory frameworks and predictability and potential barriers. And I say that because, you know, what we saw with title energy and I think we even see sometimes now with river current is that there just haven't been enough deployments or long-term projects to really understand the full potential of environmental impacts. And obviously when you're working with regulators, you know, they want to know, they want some certainty around that as well as these communities. And so that's always raised some questions where I think, you know, the more we work with these devices and the technologies, the more ants, there's more answers. But it just takes time. Mm-hmm. Well, okay. All right. Listen, let's kind of jump up and take a big picture approach to this. this and talk about maybe if you could, because we talked a little bit about last time when we chatted, we talked a little bit about, what the future's gonna look like. But I know that you've been doing some work in this space at Marine Renewables, Canada, and you've been talking a lot about 2050 and what 2050 would look like. Maybe for the listener, paint a picture for us. What was this 2050 gonna look like for the Marine Renewables sector? - Yeah, that's a great question. So, as we've seen in the last year alone, there's been a lot of change when it comes to a focus on energy sovereignty for Canada, still have to address climate change and fine solutions, big focus on nation building and economic growth. And I think we kind of paused and reflected on all that. And thought, well, how does Marine Renewable Energy contribute to that in the near and long term? So, one of the things our association and our membership has been working on is a sector vision leading to 2050, so focused on those four resource areas. And the idea of it is to really understand how Marine Renewable Energy can contribute to that clean energy, future and our economic growth. And so, what we've done is really looked out. What is possible when it comes to Marine Renewables in terms of, we know we have amazing resources here when we have a strong supply chain and we have a lot of the pieces in place. But what's needed to really move the sector forward? And also why. Like, so why is Marine Renewable Energy at this point a compelling resource that should be considered in the greater mix? And so, when we looked at that and kind of painted that big picture for ourselves, there is a very compelling story there of how, you know, for example, tidal energy can be scaled much further than it is right now, particularly when we look at the Bay of Fundy in British Columbia. So, you know, we're looking at hundreds of megawatts of tidal energy by 2050. So, offshore wind, you know, multiple gigawatts of offshore wind energy. And then more, you know, just starting from the beginning of our conversation, more uptake in remote communities of these resources as well. So essentially, I'd say, you know, when we look at 2050, we're saying Marine Renewable Energy could be part of that mainstream energy mix. - Mm-hmm. Okay. And so, you know, if we kind of take a look at how, how does it fit though in the overall system as well, right? That's got to be a consideration because a lot of the technologies that you're talking about are intermittent, right? - Yep, yeah. - And so, that's got to be part of it, that's certainly part of the conversation, I guess, in terms of how does this fit? And I guess it's going to mean that our mix is going to look different by 2050. - Yeah, exactly. And I think we all, you know, we're seeing that trajectory. And so, one of the things that we did in developing this, we wanted to ensure this is realistic also. I mean, obviously ambitious, 'cause you're talking about a vision. So you want to have some aspirational aspects of it, but we also want to kind of round it in some reality of what's possible. - Yeah. - And so, when this, you know, when this comes out and everybody will see, it's, you know, it's aspirational, but there is some realities in truth to it. So, when you talk about system planning and, you know, how it's going to fit and what we need to think about, one of the things with Marine Renewable Energy, and I can't remember if I mentioned it in the past, last time we talked, but if we look at title energy, for example, it brings the system benefit that it is predictable. So we know when the tides are coming in and out. And so from a planning perspective, you know, it's not as variable as maybe some other resources from if you look at it that way, because you really can plan ahead for when, you know, we have that production happening. - Right. So it's, you could almost say that title is, it is pretty much despatchable, as long as you know, you're scheduling, yeah. Okay. - Exactly. - I hadn't thought of it that way. That's interesting, yeah. - And so, and then as an example, offshore wind, I mean, it obviously, you know, there's a lot of similarities between offshore and onshore, but because the wind, you know, is coming from further distances, there's more of a consistency and there's stronger winds. So there's some, you know, planning aspects that can help make, I think, help with the grid and provide some reliability, but that also, you know, ensures that it's complementary to supporting the uptake of other renewables. So, you know, as time goes on and we see more development of these resources, we can also see opportunities for, you know, where they're combined with other renewable energy sources. And that's actually being done in some of those remote communities where there's hybrid systems to kind of, you know, ensure that the benefits of each kind of renewable energy kind of work off of each other. - Right, right. Okay, cool. All right, so let's maybe take apart some of these and talk about where they are today, you know, versus what the vision is at to 2050, so that we can kind of get a sense of what's that gap that we need to close in the next. Well, now I was gonna say 25 years, but it's 24 years now, 20, it's 20, 26 now. So, what is sort of the state of play today? Let's start with title, because that's, you know, the one that you mentioned a couple of times and one that, as you point out, is absolutely predictable. What's the state of play in title today? And kind of, you know, how far off are we from, you know, it becoming mainstream as opposed to kind of demonstration project? - Yes, I would say titles and area where I have become much more optimistic just even in the last year. And the reason for that, you know, over the past few years, there was a lot in the media about some of the regulatory hurdles that the sector was facing. You may recall there were a few projects that just in the Bay of Funding that decided to, you know, not move ahead with their plans. And that also came down to those regulatory barriers that were presented by some of the legislation that the developers had to, you know, to obviously adhere to. And because of that, that actually, even though those were big challenges, what happened because of it was that the industry and provincial and federal governments came together and said, how can we solve this? And so now there is a new regulatory approach, basically a staged process to help ensure that there's some more certainty for developers when they are going forward with projects, also to help create some certainty for investors. But then it also still ensures that there's those environmental, you know, standards still very well in place to ensure that the marine environment and marine life are protected. And that certainty has played a huge role. So just in the past six months, the province of Nova Scotia has went out for another kind of call for the, we call them births, but basically for the sites, you know, within the Bay of Fundy at force, which is the demonstration site. A new developer is going forward there. They're gonna be developing 12.5 megawatts, which in the, you know, title world is quite big. And so that, I think, has given a lot of confidence to the sector as a whole. They've also received an authorization from DFO to move ahead with their, you know, proposed plans, which again was one of those hurdles. And so we'll see just even in the next couple of years that project moving ahead, which obviously will engage local communities, suppliers, and do a lot to also help bring costs of electricity from these projects down, because it just with that building that volume and scale, you know, the same as any technology trajectory, or, you know, the aim is that the costs will come down from these projects. - Right, right. And when you talk about some of the regulatory hurdles or barriers that they're facing, what are the sorts of things? Like I'm familiar with some of the federal pieces of legislation that we see with, you know, but larger projects, you know, things like Fisher, exact, and navigable waters. And is it those sorts of barriers, or are there other ones that are very specific to this space? - Yeah, specifically, and to your point, the Fisheries Act was what the major challenge was, and the reason for that is particularly in the Bay of Fundy. So for those that are listening to this, and aren't that familiar with the Bay of Fundy, I mean, very high flow, fast, you know, title currents. But because of that, there's also a lot of sedimentation. So the environmental monitoring equipment that you would, you know, maybe use at a different site that's a bit lower flow, where there's clear waters. - Oh, that's right. - Well, won't necessarily work in the Bay of Fundy. And so when developers are moving forward and having to tell, you know, DFO that, you know, they expect this kind of impact to marine life, or, you know, what the outcomes might be, it's much harder to monitor for that. And so that was the key challenge, is that there wasn't certainty for DFO to say, well, you know, these projects aren't going to cause harm. We also couldn't say that. they would or wouldn't without some more intents, environmental monitoring, but that's been one of the key challenges. And so because of that, the federal government established the title task force, and that was kind of what I was alluding to, which was this initiative to help address this particular challenge. - Okay, all right. So let's talk about the one that's been in the news a lot lately, and that's an offshore wind, which has become a really popular topic of conversation in the energy and the electricity space, because there's a proposal for a very significant growth in the space. Can you give the listener a bit of a sense of what, you're in the space. What is that looking like and what are you hearing and maybe a little bit about what you are seeing in terms of plans? - Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, progress towards developing an offshore wind sector in Canada has been tremendous, because if we look back at it, it was just 2022, was a three, four years ago, where governments came together and said, we're making a commitment to establish an offshore wind sector here, beginning with establishing a regulatory framework. And so a few major steps have been taken. When we now have a regulatory framework in place because the offshore Accordax that were used, traditionally for offshore oil and gas, were amended for offshore renewables, including offshore wind. So there's now framework in place, a regulator in place. There's been regional assessments done in both Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador, which kind of lays the groundwork for understanding, where are the key places in the offshore, that offshore wind can be developed without, with the least amount of conflict with other users. And also that was an exercise together, quite a bit of data to understand where there might be data gaps that regulators would need. There's also been wind energy areas designated by the government of Nova Scotia. And so that was based on the work of the regional assessment. And now we're at a point where this past fall, strategic direction was set, which basically was a letter from federal and provincial ministers saying, we want the regulator in Nova Scotia to move ahead with a call for BIDS process. And so that call for BIDS process is based on a five gigawatt target that Nova Scotia government had set in 2022. - Right. - More electricity than we are going to require to Nova Scotia because as I know, you're very familiar with, we just don't have the demand here. It's a smaller population. So that's been one of the challenges is really identifying the market for offshore wind. I mean, some can be sold to the Nova Scotia electricity to the grid. But otherwise we're looking for export opportunities for that production. And so as I think really kind of a call to action around that, what we saw last year was Premier Houston of Nova Scotia of putting forward this idea of wind west, which is essentially-- - That's the one. - Right. That's the one that we've been hearing about. Okay, wind west. All right, please unpack wind west for the listener. All right. - Yeah, I will. So I just mentioned the wind energy areas that were established by Nova Scotia. If you were to develop those wind energy areas at their full capacity, it would be around, it would be over 60 gigawatts of energy. So that's what we're looking for. So we're looking for electricity, I should say. And so again, coming back to what I was saying, we don't, you know, Nova Scotia doesn't need that amount of electricity. But it presents, obviously, huge clean electricity potential, but also huge economic potential in terms of jobs, suppliers, all of those things for the province of Nova Scotia. And so wind west is a proposed initiative to build out the transmission infrastructure that would be needed to bring that electricity possibly also northeast United States, which, you know, in the past year, obviously is in a need for more clean electricity based on the fact that some of the offshore wind projects in the United States are now, you know, basically paused or not moving ahead because of that. - Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Maybe we can touch on that a little bit later because I expect that it's having some impact in terms of prospects here in Canada. - Yeah, absolutely. So the idea behind Wind West is that, and the other thing I will say about Wind West is that it's not just about offshore wind. I mean, it's been proposed like that, but I also see it as a huge opportunity for other, you know, clean electricity production to use that infrastructure, obviously. - Right, yeah. - And so even though it's packaged as Wind West, I think it's something that a lot of us have been calling for for a long time is just those strengthened, that strengthened infrastructure and intertwised between provinces so that we eventually get to East to West grid. - Yeah, yeah. So 60,000 megawatts, 60k megawatts. - Exactly, so the estimate I saw for that was that it could meet about 27% of all of Canada's electricity needs. Where, you know, the question lies, 'cause I'm more confident in, yes, you could probably get this infrastructure built. I mean, it's gonna take time and investment, and obviously there's, you know, regulatory challenges between each province and those kinds of things. I think what it comes down to though is the market. So who's buying the electricity, right? And so there's a lot of discussions that will still need to happen between provinces, you know, between, if it were to go south, then obviously in Northeast United States and New England would need to be talking with the land of Canada and Nova Scotia. But that's where I think we are with it right now is that there needs to be, you know, it's a very coordinated effort in that strategy in who's buying, who needs electricity and who's buying it and for how much. - Yeah. - And so that's kind of the key question right now, I think. - Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's one of the issues that I did wanna talk a little bit about. So why don't we touch on that now? I would expect that this is probably, the day of who all over again for you. When we chatted last time, we talked a little bit about your journey and you'd spent time working for the government. You were, you know, offshore oil and gas and then renewables and so on. I expect that you've been talking about challenges of regional collaboration, coordination since the beginning of your time in the energy space. Is this the fundamental challenge we have on the East Coast is trying to work through the jurisdictional difficulty of doing regional planning across provinces and north-eastern states? - Yeah, I would say so. I mean, and some of this feels a lot like, you know, the discussions we had early on around title, although title isn't going to be delivering tens of gigawatts of electricity. But yeah, I think for, you know, Atlanta, Canada, it's interesting 'cause it's a unique in the sense that, you know, we have each of these provinces that are actually kind of looking at different types of electricity production both for their own use, but then like for that economic, you know, opportunity. But we also have that potential that because of our smaller and pretty well connected that there is an opportunity to have a more coordinated response to regional electricity system planning. And I think that is going to have to happen. And there is a lot of work being done by several different associations, Atlantic Ascentra for Energy, for example, has been really working hard to bring us all together and have those discussions and kind of develop a strategy around that. But yeah, it continues to be a, you know, an ongoing challenge like we had the concept of the Atlantic Loop. And that, you know, has, you know, ended. But then there's when Wes kind of comes in and the energy, East Partnership, all those things, you know, still have those same kind of principles that we do need to be working together and have a coordinated approach. - Yeah, yeah. Okay. Back to the other pieces we talked about, title we've talked about offshore wind. What is the state of play of wave? Energy and, you know, I guess specifically a kind of river current energy. Not sorry, not wave, but river current energy, yeah. - So for river current, there's been a few demonstrations to date. Still very early as we kind of talked about in terms of, you know, becoming a more commercial technology and option when it comes to wave energy. Kind of the same thing. There's still many different technology concepts. So what I mean by that is, you know, there hasn't been a convergence of the technology like you'd see in the wind sector. And so part of that is going to be more pilot testing, demonstrations, determining what, you know, what technology is most efficient and effective in the marine environment. But one thing that has happened in the past couple years that I think is actually pretty cool with wave energy is that Moshalat Mushalat First Nation, in British Columbia has really taken an interest in wave energy because they're very close to a very strong wave energy resource. And so they've been working with University of Victoria and local suppliers and a wave energy company to actually go ahead with a demonstration project. And it's been a long time since we've had wave energy tested and demonstrated in Canada. So this could actually obviously help me a few objectives of displacement of diesel, energy sovereignty for a remote and indigenous community and also at the same time moving that technology forward. - Yeah, and it's clearly, clearly, these are opportunities to address issues of remote and indigenous communities. - Yeah, exactly. - Which, as I think about it, I guess almost every community that would be considered remote and the vast majority of these indigenous communities as well are adjacent to water resources. - Yes. - Those communities did not spring up in a place where there isn't water. So yeah, marine resources and marine renewable resources. This clearly is in your wheelhouse now. - Yeah, exactly. And actually over the past couple of years too, we've been doing a lot more work with indigenous communities and organizations. Just trying to kind of see what the interest is but also to provide more information about what those opportunities could look like. And what we've noticed is that even in the past year within our membership, there's been a lot more and many more indigenous communities becoming members who are looking either for that type of ownership opportunity or indigenous suppliers who are interested in what kinds of opportunities these projects could bring to their businesses. - Yeah. - So I think it's definitely encouraging to see that. Like we've been really happy to see that interest level. - So we've, you know, we chatted about what the 2050 vision looks like. We chatted about where we are today. What are the gaps? What do we need to do to get from where we are today to be able to realize that 2050 vision and be able to take advantage of these opportunities for development of these resources? - Yeah. I think we have kind of, I think we have 14 recommendations. - Oh, okay. So you've got, so you're, you're, you're-- - You're beginning to all of them. - So you've got the specifics on. - I'll summarize where we are with things. And so I would say the number one thing that we need to do right now is essentially move quickly, thoughtfully but quickly. And the reason I say that is because when it comes to particularly offshore wind and tidal energy, there are a lot of other jurisdictions competing for investment that have foundational regulatory frameworks in place, a lot of experience. So we're kind of in this catch-up mode, but that doesn't mean that we're not in a position where we can lead and really be competitive. And so to do that, I think we need a really coordinated approach amongst industry, federal and provincial governments, indigenous peoples, coastal communities, researchers, kind of all of the above approach to how we move ahead with this sector. And so there are a few key things that would make a big difference. So one, we'd already been talking about with Wind West is some leadership on inter-provincial electricity planning. I know there's a lot of efforts like that underway, but those definitely need to continue. And I think also, you know, kind of come more to the forefront of something that's very critical for Canada. Even beyond marine renewables, just we need, you know, that approach in Canada. And then with that also comes the investment in transmission that's going to be required. When it comes to marine renewables, also investment in port infrastructure, because if we don't have the upgrades and infrastructure we need in ports, we simply won't be able to handle that scale of development moving forward. So that could be a potential bottleneck if there is an investment. The other is off-take mechanisms. So it comes back to, you know, the market, how do you create that market? Where was the off-take? And then the last thing I would say is just streamlined regulatory processes, avoiding duplication, avoiding uncertainty. And I know that the federal government's working towards that with the major projects office. And so those kinds of approaches are going to be really, really critical to unlocking private investment and delivering projects going forward. And Ed will address a lot of the challenges, I think, the sector faces. Yeah, well, and that last point, I guess, relates to your first point, when you said work, where potentially competing for investments with others, some of whom have regulatory frameworks in place, and we need that regulatory framework, right? Yeah, I mean, when we've taken some, there's been some big steps with offshore wind, as I mentioned, where we, you know, we have that regulatory framework in place, but now we need to act on them. And all of this is new. So it's also how our regulators interpreting, you know, the regulations moving forward, how can we do this efficiently? And also how can we ensure, you know, that indigenous rights are upheld in all of this, that local communities and other ocean users, you know, are still involved in these processes and not impacted negatively by them? So there's a lot that has to be done. And really what I think it comes down to is that collaboration and coordination amongst all the key entities that need to be part of it. Right. Okay. Cool. All right. I wanted to touch on some hot topic issues, the stuff that's top of the news, and whether or not those issues are resonating with your sector. And the first one would be, you know, the trade pressures and the trade challenges that we have with the United States, the increasing tariff environment within which we're operating. Is that having an impact on the sector? Is it just raising costs? Is it raising concerns about future investment? Yeah. I mean, we're obviously concerned and our members are concerned and have been, we've been in close contact with them. I think the difference between our sector and maybe some of the other clean energy and electricity sub-sectors is we're not in the, like, the construction phase yet. So, and it will still be, I mean, we thought, like, let's take offshore wind as an example, even once a project receives approval, it will still be about 10 years, like before it goes through to the actual, like, in steel in the water phase. And so we are watching this very closely, but we haven't heard a lot of concerns from members yet because we're just not at that stage where it will have an impact on them. That said, I mean, a lot of our membership are also suppliers that are working in, you know, offshore oil and gas, other renewable sectors. And so we do hear a lot from that perspective, but there hasn't been yet that direct impact to title offshore wind wave at this point. Gotcha, okay. You mentioned the pullback that we've seen in the United States with respect to some of their, you know, offshore wind projects, for example. What's that doing for us? I'm wondering is that potentially an opportunity for us? Are we now becoming at least in, you know, in the land of Canada, potentially the first movers in this space? Yeah, so that definitely has had an impact. And I think initially when, you know, the first projects were paused, our thought was like, well, this is, you know, this potentially could attract investment to Canada. But what has, I think, actually happened? I mean, it has, and we have noticed, we even noticed that at our conference this past fall, where we had like more than double the amount of people with many of them coming from the United States, just going to be looking to see what the opportunities are. But what it actually has come down to is it has created, I think, more of an environment of being risk averse and really needing to ensure that there is regulatory certainty, you know, all the way that there, you know, that there isn't going to be that kind of challenge. And so what we've seen with developers and industry is that they are being very careful about how they make their investment decisions. And so I think what Canada needs to do, because there is an opportunity there, but is to send that signal, you know, we have that regulatory certainty here. And we're, you know, we can ensure that you aren't going to experience those risks in your projects. If we can do that, I think that we would see, you know, more investment flowing to Canada at this point. Right. All right. How about supply chains? I keep hearing, and I didn't know what we've been talking on and off really since the beginning of the pandemic, about supply chains and the challenges of getting critical equipment and how the delays and how long delays are to get critical materials. Is that an issue yet for the sector? It's not an issue yet, but I think it probably will be. And I see that because it's already been, even before, you know, tariffs and some of these trade challenges, there are already a number of supply chain bottlenecks when it comes to the offshore wind industry. And as an ex and part of that is just ensuring that there is an understanding of what the scale of development is going to be, which is also why I believe Nova Scotia set that goal of five gigawatts for offshore wind to kind of send that signal of what suppliers and the supply chain should be thinking about when it comes to future development, like just to provide that kind of certainty. And so without, you know, really understanding the scale of development, I think we would see suppliers looking at other, you know, other jurisdictions, not necessarily preparing for offshore wind development in Atlanta, Canada. But then the other side of it, and you're probably familiar with this as well, is just the scale of, or the size of offshore wind turbines has been increasing and increasing, like we're going at 15 megawatt turbines to 20 megawatt turbines. And actually one of the challenges there are the vessels, the vessels that are capable of bringing those components to, you know, to the project site are scarce. There aren't a lot of them. And so, again, it comes down to sending the signals and having some certainty in what those development timelines are going to be. Wow. Okay. All right. Well, I had a couple of other issues, but I know we touched on them. We did talk about regional planning and regional grid planning, we did talk about the need for east-west transmission. So before I get to the final question, and you know, my final question is always about your book recommendation. I mean, I got to point it out. Terrific and interesting conversation, but you did a lot of myth-busting in this conversation. You busted quite a few myths about, you know, intermittency and variability. That actually doesn't necessarily apply to things like wave and river and tidal. And I find that encouraging that, you know, we will are able to deliver, I think, I think interesting messages with respect to these resources that often folks will just simply, you know, jumble together with things that are intermittent and you can't plan for. Whereas, you know, as you pointed out, a lot of these are either you can plan for in terms of title or actually constant in terms of wave and river. Yeah, and that's exactly it. I think that's one of the things we're trying to do with this sector vision that we're going to be releasing next month. And when you see it, you'll see it's a fairly large document. And the reason for that is a big piece of it is that education piece. Yeah. And getting people to understand what the sector actually is, what the technologies are. And getting people to understand that there's benefits beyond lowest cost of energy. There's other things that these technologies and resources can bring to our system planning efforts. Great. Okay. Now we get to now we get to the book recommendation. And you've done this before. But here's your opportunity to add a second book now. It's a re-plus years later to our flux capacitor book club. So what book are you recommending that we add to our book club today? So I am currently reading the Barry Pickers by Amanda Peters. And so there's a few interesting things about this book. I'll just start with which is why I was drawn to reading it. The first is that I actually went to graduate school with Amanda Peters, the author. Oh wow. No kidding. Exciting to see her put this book out. Wow. The other is just to give you an idea what it's about. It's about a Migma family from Nova Scotia that travels to Maine each year for blueberry picking. And the area of Maine where it's actually based in is actually like probably about 20 minutes from where I grew up. And I actually remember seeing people come in the summers and do the whole blueberry picking across the island staying at the camp. So I was compelled to it for that reason. But what it's about, I think, is actually the very important piece here. So it's about a family that goes to Maine, a Migma family, as I mentioned. And their daughter goes missing while they're at this camp and doing the blueberry picking. And really what the book does is provides a very good illustration at what loss and lasting effects of colonial harm can be like, you know, for Indigenous peoples. Through this really kind of intimate and quiet narrative that really sticks with you to kind of make you feel that you're understanding the characters hurt and feelings in this family crisis that occurs. So I thought it was, I mean, I'm only halfway through at this point, but it has been a very good reminder so far of how much these Indigenous voices matter and in different ways of telling that story. Well, once again, when it comes to book recommendations, you do not disappoint. Okay. Well, hopefully some people read it after this because I'm enjoying it so far. I haven't gone all the way through, but it's been a good story. Well, you've convinced me it is now on my, now on my reading list. So this is the Barry Pickers. It's by Amanda Peters. And this is somebody that you said you were at graduate school with. Yeah, exactly. Fantastic. Melissa, thank you very much for joining the podcast once again. Really interesting conversation and some fun myth busting and look forward to seeing that report coming in a couple of weeks time. Yeah, thank you so much, Francis, for having me. It was a great conversation and I just was happy to have the opportunity to provide a bit more information about where the sector has gone since the last time we chatted a lot and has happened. A lot has happened. All right. Thanks very much. All right. Thank you. For those that have been with the podcast since the beginning and those that have joined along the way, thanks for listening. Please take the time to rate the podcast on whatever platform you use to listen and let me know what you think of the flux capacitor. You can find me on Instagram as the Brad Bradley on LinkedIn and through our website at electricity dot C.A. The website for this pod is the flux capacitor dot C.A. And it includes links for this episode on the show page this being episode 132. And while you're there, check out the book club page which provides info on and links to the books which have been recommended by guests on the flux capacitor, including Alyssa's recommendation, the berry pickers by Amanda Peters. And let's continue the electricity conversation on our Facebook page on Instagram and at electricity dot C.A. Thank you.