Episode 128: Ambition and Growth in Canada’s Biggest City, with Toronto Hydro’s Jana Mosley

[MUSIC] We need to be making sure that we're incentivizing utilities to be doing the right things with investment. That could mean deferring investment. It could mean installing storage. It could mean procuring load shedding services. That also requires different investment, of course, from a system operations perspective. It requires us to look at a different way of perhaps earning return. [MUSIC] Welcome to the Flux capacitor, a podcast about the future of electricity. I'm Francis Bradley of electricity Canada. This is number one two eight episode 128 of the Flux capacitor. I've been chatting with the industry's business leaders, thought leaders, new market players, and stakeholders. The folks that have been pondering the future of how we create, move, trade, and use energy. And what the future changes will mean for electricity companies, regulators, society, and customers. I hope these conversations have given you the listener a sense of the conversations that are taking place in the sector. My guest on the podcast today is. Janemos, late president and CEO of Toronto Hydro. Janne joined me for a chat about Toronto Hydro's role in ensuring electricity service to more than three million homes and businesses in Toronto. We talk about Hydro's plan to invest $5 billion over the next five years to modernize its grid, address rising electricity demand, and support a number of major city projects. Janne emphasizes the importance of safety, cost effectiveness, and technological innovation in grid modernization. We also discuss the challenges of project development, the need for regulatory reforms, and the company's alignment with Toronto's net zero strategy. We close the conversation with Janne's book recommendation. Here is my conversation with Janemos Lee recorded on Zoom in mid-November, 2025. Janne, welcome to the podcast. Great to have an opportunity to chat with you. Thanks for having me looking forward to this. So why don't we start for the listener with just a maybe a quick thumbnail sketch of Toronto Hydro for those that don't live in central Canada and don't have a familiarity with the company? Happy to do that. So Toronto Hydro is a distribution company. We distribute power to over three million homes and businesses here in the city of Toronto, Canada's largest city. We have over $7 billion in assets. And we're really focused on, you know, energizing our community today, but making sure that we're also building a brighter tomorrow here through building more modern, capable, and resilient grid. All right. And so what does that mean from a challenge perspective, building that brighter system for tomorrow? Sounds easy. Be safe, right? But yeah, we're all struggling with that a little bit in this space these days, you know, just based on the age of the assets in Canada. And the renewal that's required will also really forcing us to think differently about the grid, how we can maximize the use of the existing grid. Well, of course, trying to keep costs affordable for everybody. So, you know, really I'd say our most significant challenges and opportunities in front of us right now, you know, always will continue to be safety. You know, how do we make sure that we're doing all of this work and keeping our people and the public safe? That needs to remain top of mind. And this is high risk area. So we continue to work at our safety culture and how we think about that differently. Certainly we're modernizing the grid and maximizing the investment that, you know, customers already made. So we need to make sure we're getting everything out of the grid that exists today. As you know, electricity demand in Ontario is set to rise by 75% over the next 20 years. And that really is driven by electrification and industrial growth and data centers is connecting. So here in Toronto, that means we're investing over $5 billion in Toronto's electricity grid over the next five years, making sure that we're ready for that future growth and electrification. And supporting the city with some major developments like the Portlands area down on the water next to downtown Toronto and enabling the third line of transmission that's going to bring in generation into the city. And then supporting transit projects like the Ontario line that's going to help get more cars off the road and make getting around this city easier for people. I see the third thing that we're focused on right now, like many others is really just looking at technology. How do we make the grid smarter, stronger, more resilient? And how do we invest differently? Certainly the frequency and severity of weather events is increasing and that requires our grid to be more secure and stronger. We by optimizing the grid and help performs today. We're making sure that we're preparing for what's going to come at us out there down in the road. Okay, why don't we maybe follow up on a couple of those? One of them is you know you talk a lot about the growth that you're going to be seeing, growing demand in Ontario, some major major projects, third transmission line and so on. How easy is it to actually get these these projects moving forward? Is it a complicated process just from a permitting and citing perspective? Because I mean I do hear that from folks that are in the generation business, you know, building large generation. But my sense is even smaller projects all right down to the distribution to the customer. That's not easy either, is it? Certainly not and you know it takes time. It takes time to develop these projects and you know plan them and look at all of the different alternatives, consult with stakeholders, look at you know all of the environmental impacts and the priorities of different with different groups, understanding Indigenous lands and priorities there. So I think the number one complaint from a lot of people where they see a need and from customers is just how long the process still still does take and you know that's something that we're talking about federally and talking about really all over the world these days and I think North America has certainly an opportunity to think about how do we hit the mark on satisfying everyone's needs or understanding them while also keeping these things moving more quickly. So you know at the same time we've got to make sure we're doing that right or we've got to spend each dollar wisely and make sure that customers are getting value for what they're paying for. So it continues to be an important balance and and we continue certainly in Ontario like other jurisdictions to look at how we can streamline and simplify without skipping important steps. Yeah and I guess that's that's a critical point as well right making sure that critical steps aren't skipped. So do we you know where do we need to adjust or do we need to adjust you know is it is it just a case if we've got generally the right framework for you know legislation and regulation but it's a question of being more efficient with it or do you think there's changes that we should be looking at bringing it forward. Well you know I think we continuous improvement is just a is a fundamental of operational excellence and in the utility space that's what we're all about so certainly there are some things that we can do differently. You know making sure we don't have duplication understanding and having clear priorities from you know policy makers that are going to achieve you know the broader goals of the country and the province and what taxpayers are looking for and expecting from their governments and making sure that we are also not getting too lost in some of the unknowns. So this isn't something that you know the utility industry is strong at. We manage risk for living and rightfully so we need to you know keep the lights on and provide people with the essential service of electricity. It's a life or death matter let alone an economic driver and depend enabler. So I think that we can go from a place of yes ensuring food and but also making sure that we are thinking ahead and enabling utilities to invest where they need to invest today so that we aren't left too far behind down the road and that's very hard to catch up. So there's a bit of a shift I do believe that's required and you're seeing policy makers and regulators start to have those discussions and look at non-traditional types of investment that utilities should be making for customers so that we can truly enable what this different future looks like for all of us. I was intrigued by the use of the term lost on the unknowns. Can you unpack that a little bit? This is a sector that I mean it was built by engineers and you know they built and answered everything. But of course, that's not the world that we live in, right? Well, I mean, look how long we've debated net zero by when? Yeah. You know, so, you know, what I like now is that we seem to have moved past by the exact date and just know we're moving from A to B. B might move, B might look slightly different. It might be be cubed by the time we get there. But there's the engineer in me making it into some sort of mathematical formula. But I think the less we debate the exact what it exactly looks like. And the more we spend our time moving us forward, the better off will be because we just really can't predict the future. I mean, look, what's happened in our country just over the last 18 months and how, you know, through, you know, geopolitical priorities and economic requirements in our own country. We've seen a shift in terms of some of the port priorities that we've been talking about federally and some of those timelines. So we need to be nimble. We need to be comfortable not having all of the answers, focus on, you know, the must have the must dues from a safety and reliability perspective. But we're going to need to wait into some non-traditional type of ways of investing in our systems and using our grids. So that we can unleash the full potential of all this investment. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. And I'd like to follow up on that. But but first one of the things that I ask folks that come on the podcast is about their journey. I'm always interested to get a sense of, you know, what people's journey has been. So same joke every, every podcast. Janna, when you were a kid on the playground, did you, did you always dream of leading Toronto Hydro? What was your, what was your journey to this role? Well, I wanted to be a lawyer and then a teacher and then I landed on engineer. I think thanks to some great influencers in my household and a, and a physics and chemistry teacher in grade 12. I've been so fortunate for what that has opened up for me through my career. You know, I think, you know, not unlike a lot of people in the early 20s, I landed in the utility space when I went to work for Transelta after graduating from electrical engineering. And, you know, I like solve problems. I like to work with the team to achieve a greater good. And wow, do we ever have opportunities in our industry to continue to keep solving the next challenge and making a difference in ways that we get to see come to life. You know, when you're, turn your lights on and off. So that's why I've stayed in this business. And, and they're just amazing people across, across the industry. And we share knowledge. We're supporting each other. And you know, you know that better than anyone else to give in the role that you play across Canada in this space. And I did know that I wanted to lead for whatever reason that was, those are just some strengths that I had as a kid, everything from organizing, you know, circus events in my backyard and parents coming to the door asking my mother, why does my kid need to bring $5 to your house? And, you know, things like that. So I just always naturally got into those types of things. I just didn't know exactly where we lead. And, and here we are. And I'm super grateful. Yeah. Yeah. So, providing power to 3 million homes. The largest distribution company in Canada. The largest. Well, we can always debate that. My buddy, Brian, at Electron, I debate that from time to time. But I'm going to say yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Is because there's a spectrum. You know, you mentioned, you mentioned Electra company that's, you know, in the same sort of the same league as Toronto Hydro, but there's a spectrum in Ontario and also in some of the other provinces where there's distribution only companies from large companies to small companies. So you're leading one of the largest. Are there advantages to that scope and scale that, you know, a smaller company in Ontario wouldn't have? And I imagine there's also further complications as well. So there can be pluses and minuses. But what does that look like from a scale? First, like, clarify, when I talk largest, I should have mentioned, largest, urban, right? And I would say one of the biggest differences between distribution companies is, you know, urban versus rural. Right. Those are very, very different challenges. Yeah. And then you throw in, you know, the city of Toronto, you know, old infrastructure, not all of its underground, like, you know, if you're down in New York City, I was just down meeting with Tim, con, con Edison's CEO and just comparing notes a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, we have some real, real challenges here in the city. And if you want to get into upgraded, the structure or connect new buildings, you know, you are really disrupting, you know, people in the city, businesses, people trying to move around and drive around this city. So it requires a different level of planning and coordination. And we still have opportunity there to do that better. And that's been, that's a big focus of ours right now and working with the city of Toronto. And, and just that congestion and tight space, both from a physical perspective above ground, but then also what's happening below ground or, you know, in people's backyards. And you just have to drive around the city to see that. Yeah. While a lot of greenfield happening in my service territory, that's for sure. Right. Right. But, but a lot of, but a lot of build up, right? I mean, that's that's every time, every time anybody just, we're spending almost 900 million a year right now in capital, just meeting the growth and asset renewal that's required here in the city. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, listen, you mentioned a couple of minutes ago, non traditional types of investments and allowing for non traditional types of investments. What would that look like? What does that mean? Yeah. So certainly, you know, the things that we've seen change are, of course, the investment and technology that utilities are required to make. You know, technology certainly unlocks innovation, but, you know, it drives up operational costs, you know, depending on the financial treatment, right? We're moving from spending capital to operating with cloud services and cybersecurity. And so well, eventually, you're going to get those operational efficiencies and costs, savings in the near term. There's quite a bubble there. And so looking at how do you treat that from our finance and from a regulatory perspective and making sure that utilities are able to make those important investments that customers benefit from is really, really important. So I do think we need to continue to think differently about that in our regulatory frameworks and our revenue requirements. And then certainly when you look at distribution systems in particular, and if we want to maximize, so it maximizes to a power flow in our grid, we need to be making sure that we're incentivizing utilities to be doing the right things with investment. It could mean procuring, you know, load shedding services. And so we need to be making sure that we're doing that. And so that also requires different investment, of course, from a system operations perspective. But it requires us to look at a different way of perhaps earning return. And is that something that is an active conversation right now? Yeah, I'm pleased to say that I think, you know, the Ontario Energy Board, and I certainly saw this in Alberta with the other utilities commission. They're aware of this. They're open to the conversation. They have been supporting utilities who've been piloting different types of investment. And, you know, they're proceeding with caution, probably not as fast as most utilities would like. But I think with each case that goes in and each utility learning from each other, we're starting to make some progress around what can really do here. And we don't need to just look within Canada. There are areas in the United States that have done this well. New York is one of them. And certainly in the UK and Australia, there's some, there's some great lessons learned there. But that's how we're really going to unlock the full potential of the grid. And, you know, our utility companies know the grid better than anyone else. And I think we just need to make sure we unleash them to be able to do what they really can only do for customers. Yeah. So it sounds as though this would be achievable in the current regulatory construct. But that this is going to require, I guess, a kind of an iterative process in terms of rulings and decisions. But it isn't something where we've got to, you know, we've got to introduce legislation and change the change how we regulate. It depends. It would depend what jurisdiction you're in. Correct. I think, you know, policy makers job is to, you know, provide that clear policy direction to independent system operators and regulators. And, you know, we're having that conversation, certainly here in Ontario, right? So we do still need to bring regulators along. We need to continue working on building trust between utilities and regulators so that we can unlock proper. investment and in technology and ways of working. And I think what's really important is we do need to move past talking about just electricity costs. We need to talk about the total energy wallet. As technology changes, as customer behavior changes, we are going to see a shift in how people use electricity. And I expect the cost of electricity will go up as a result of what you're spending electricity will will be higher. But what I expect will also happen is perhaps the whether you're spending a natural gas will be down. And so we need to start educating people around that total energy wallet. And so I'm thinking about costs and affordability through that lens, not just through, you know, a rate one rate case at a time and looking at, you know, making sure that we don't see any of the electricity rates go up. Because I just think that's not practical for for what's ahead of all of us. Yeah. So that sounds like a challenge that is greater than Toronto Hydro. And it sounds like it's greater than, you know, simply the utilities. Who's going to need to be part of this conversation? Well, you know, I think it's a very active conversation, you know, in any jurisdiction right now, even electricity Canada, I would say, you know, it has been part of understanding that and and through its various committees, you know, been pooling the minds across the country at all the different utilities together. I do think we have an opportunity through electricity Canada and other advocacy groups to bridge the gap through Can foot and work with the regulators to better understand this. And then, you know, and talk to our policy makers about how how this works. This is what they do day in day out. And so just helping them understand it and what problems are we solving trying to solve together and look at practical ways to do that. I'm really encouraged here in Ontario, you know, we are seeing some great alignment all the way up to, you know, the top through the premier's office and minister Lecce, the minister of energy and minds. And we're having a conversation not just about supply, not just about transmission, but we're now having conversation about distribution utilities as well. I'm looking at how do we make sure that distribution companies are able to finance the the incredible CAPEX programs that they're going to have down the line as we're working to get new generation from, you know, supply all the way to households and businesses. So this is an active conversation. I think we've got the right people in the table at the table. And we've got some common goals. I'm quite encouraged by that. Yeah. And one of the issues that I think has been part of almost every conversation you and a guy you and I have had since you took on this role of Toronto Hydro is about customers and floorability because that's the God to be central to this conversation, right? Absolutely. It is everywhere. There's cost pressures in every household with everything that has been going on. You know, we even since COVID. So, you know, that hasn't, that hasn't gone away. And as utilities, we need to be thoughtful about that and be using our expertise to think about how do we plan and stage this appropriately. But we also need to make sure we don't collectively shy away from doing the things that need to be done and pushing this problem down the road. Right. Right. You mentioned earlier about, you know, growing demand and the need to meet some of this demand through a variety of projects. You mentioned data centers. So our data centers. And I think I mentioned the offline that I was, I was, I was at NWIF a couple of days ago and they were, you know, showing us some of some of their, some of their interesting technology where they're recovering heat from buildings and they talked about recovering heat from data centers. So our data centers now becoming a significant part of Toronto Hydro's business. So interestingly enough, you know, when you're in the city of Toronto, you wouldn't think that there's a large footprint where you could see data centers starting to pop up, but they certainly are. So, you know, we have a few of them today with substantial load and certainly we have several others that are, you know, in talking with us right now about their plans. So, you know, there's a lot of, you know, empty space too that, you know, can be taken advantage of or you have some sort of interconnection to the grid already. And so we're starting to see those discussions happening. So yeah, very much about our our long-term load growth and the need for increased capital investment. And you know, I think in many ways that can be a good thing because, you know, you can socialize, you know, the costs around, you know, how we're paying for the grid through the more customers you have connected to the grid. The more you can spread out, the need, you know, how we pay for that grid. So it, you know, it is, it can be part of the solution in terms of keeping costs affordable when you look at some of these connecting some of these large loads to your system. Yeah, interesting stuff. Okay. And then one of the other challenges you mentioned was to be able to meet some of these some of these future challenges you've got to that their transmission line. So how's that going to happen? Just saying it. Talking about this one for a while. The independent electric system operator published their plan at the end of October after an extensive consultation period that I am really pleased to say Toronto Hydro played a big role in. And you know, they did they did recommend to bring in a third line of supply and to do that from directly from where the new some of the new nuclear development is happening out east at Darlington and bring that in actually as a a submersed cable, a big cable all the way into that under the ellipt Portland area east of downtown Toronto. So, you know, I think that the good news about that is, you know, you were really minimizing the impact to landowners in terms of, you know, re-conductoring or if you needed to widen right of way. Now that that said, I think there's some other great alternatives there that would have minimal impacts to to landowners anyways because of existing right way that exists. But you know what, we're going to need a fourth line. So, you know, that that will come in due course anyways. What's nice here is, you know, with the city's plans to develop that area, we get to look at that all at once and do it right and and get moving on that. So, we're excited to partner on that project and, you know, see that we're going to indeed be able to get a new supply, additional supply in to serve our customers because that's certainly always on my mind as we build this new generation. That's excellent. But we've got to get it to homes and businesses within our service territory and that is not easy in a congested city like Toronto. Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned that this Portland's development just for people who aren't familiar with it, it's like adding another small city, right? I mean, it's going to be pretty. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you mentioned, anyway, you know, they're also looking at, you know, what role can, you know, district heating and cooling play in that development down there. And that's a really great opportunity for us to astronohydro to to partner with Carlisle and his team and the city in planning out, you know, the ultimate infrastructure development there to as we, you know, as we continue to invest in the growth in the city. So it's exciting to see that I'll come together. It's always hard to ask a city to save land for later. So, you know, well, we could have reserved space for an eventual line coming in through the water. You know, in some ways, it's good to move forward with it now and make sure that we're able to do it right. Yeah, yeah. And net zero, we talked about net zero earlier and different, you know, depending upon where you are, you've got a different target. As a, a distribution company, just Toronto Hydro itself have a net zero target for the company, the kind of sort of separate and independent of what, you know, what the province is doing or what the city is doing. Do you have targets at Toronto Hydro? So we are, our targets are aligned with our shareholder. So there's four main priorities right now of our shareholder. And I should mention our sole shareholder is the city of Toronto. We're focused on certainly making sure that they get a stable, predictable return on investment, advancing their net zero strategy and they have a very clear laid out transform to plan. And our role is to really support them through enabling emission reductions of buildings and vehicles through our investment in infrastructure. And certainly reducing our own emissions through our own fleet electrification and looking at our own building emissions. And we're, we're well on track to, to hit our goals there. The third shareholder priority is to increase access to transit. And then, of course, affordable and available housing in what is a growing city. So yes, we certainly are focused on net zero. You know, we also talk a lot about how do we support that overall? It's through enabling electrification. And we do that, you know, through investing in our global it. You know, that is the way we contribute to decarbonization and climate action, where the backbone for supporting that. And so we need to be prepared to electrify new homes and buildings and transit at a rapid space, at a rapid pace. I'd say when I look out into the future, there's really three key things that we're doing that, you know, are, and going to continue to lean in that are different than perhaps what we've been doing in the past, which was more of, I would say that in order, an order taker or, you know, if you bring it to me, I will figure out how to connect you. We're moving to more of that proactive accelerator of electrification and expanding beyond educating and advising customers around energy efficiency goals to really removing barriers and incentivizing electrification across the city. We are proactively investing, of course, in those core system upgrades that are going to enable the energy transition. And then we're really looking at how do we advance what we refer to in our industry as the DSO operating model, which is the distribution system operations of our business. And really this is about, you know, how do we make sure that we can reduce the need for additional supply wherever possible that saves customers money on how we're operating the grid and increasing that system flexibility. So Janet, the last question, and I ask everybody the same last question and that is for a book recommendation. We assemble them all onto our book, our flux capacitor book club. So our reading list today will have an additional book based upon your recommendations. So what book are you going to put on our reading list today? This is a great question. I am a bit of an addict of leadership and culture books, but I thought I'd go back to basics for you a book that I read in my early 20s. And it was called Strengthsfinder 2.0 by Tom Raff. There's been many versions of it since. So there's, I don't know if it's still 2.0, but this is really based on Clifton Strengthsfinder Gallup now, I think, has the rights to his philosophy. And it really is all about understanding what your top strengths are and figuring out how to amplify those. And I found when you just work with people and for yourself when focusing on your strengths, you really start to unleash the potential in people and in your organization. So it's a great read. Get your partner or friends to do the assessment too. You have some great debate. Some people wonder how my partner and I are able to live in the same house based on our top five strengths. But you know, that's a story for another day in Francis, but it's been really helpful for me. And then I'd say later in career, looking at what happens when you're overusing your strengths and how does that end up playing out and looking and so looking like and so how can you adjust that as well. So that's what I'd offer to you and your listeners. And I hope people enjoy it as much as I have. All right. So strengths finder 2.0. And this is Tom Raff. So strengths finder 2.0 with by Tom Raff. A great addition. You got it. Terrific. Appreciate that. We will add it to our reading list. And with that, Janet, thank you very much for taking the time to chat, to join the podcast and to give us some insight into what's happening at Toronto Hajo. Very appreciate it. It's very exciting times ahead. We're I'm happy to be here. Feel very fortunate to be to be leading in this very exciting time with this great group of people. For those that have been with the podcast since the beginning and those that have joined along the way, thanks for listening. Please take the time to rate the podcast on whatever platform you use to listen and let me know what you think of the flux capacitor. You can find me on Instagram as the Brad Bradley on LinkedIn and through our website at electricity dot ca. The website for this pod is the flux capacitor dot ca. And it includes links for this episode on the show page. This being episode 128 and while you're there, check out the book club page, which provides info on and links to the books which have been recommended by guests on the flux capacitor, including Janice recommendation, strengths finder 2.0 by Tom Rath. And let's continue the electricity conversation on our Facebook page on Instagram and at electricity dot ca. Thank you.