Episode 122: Reflections on growing the system, building the grid, and a BC Hydro career with Chris O’Riley

[MUSIC] One of the things I did early in my 10 years, President, as I put my direct office phone number and my personal email on the web. So I would get probably half dozen outreaches from customers a week and we had a team to respond. But for me, it was a good window into what were our customers experiencing and how was the organization responding to that and a bit of a safety or a escape valve if you will pressure or res valve. [MUSIC] Welcome to the flux capacitor, a podcast about the future of electricity. I'm Francis Bradley of electricity, Canada. This is number one, two, two episode 122 of the flux capacitor. I've been chatting with the industry's business leaders, thought leaders, new market players and stakeholders. The folks that have been pondering the future of how we create, move, trade, and use energy. And what the future changes will mean for electricity companies, regulators, society, and customers. I hope these conversations are giving you the listener a sense of the conversations that are taking place in the sector. My guest on the podcast today is. >> Chris O'Reilly, the former President and CEO of BC Hydro. >> Chris joined me for a reflection of his 35 years at BC Hydro from his start as an engineering training at the Hydro Plant on Campbell River and the redevelopment of the John Hart generating station through a number of other transformative projects up to the recently completed site-C Dam and generating station. We talk about BC Hydro's evolution, including its increased complexity and focus on customer service. Chris also highlights Hydro's growing partnerships with First Nations, such as the Northwest Transmission Line Project, which involves joint ownership. Chris also reflects on the future of BC Hydro. And we close the conversation with Chris's book recommendation, which for a change is not a book by Brenne Brown. Here is my conversation with Chris O'Reilly recorded on Zoom in mid-September 2025. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Congratulations on reaching this milestone. It's great to talk to you even in retirement. >> Well, thanks so much, Francis. I've really always enjoyed our collaboration working together over the years at electricity can, and it's great to be connecting with you on video today or on a podcast today. >> Yeah. And so it's been a little while. Where have you been? I understand out on the island. Have you been out fishing? >> Yeah. Yeah, well, it was a good, I retired July 31st, and so we've had a good summer traveling to our cabin in the cult violence, and did lots of fishing, we're out sailing, spent lots of time on the boat, and spent lots of time with family. And it was a really good opportunity to compress after a pretty intense eight years, really, and the president and CEO of Roller BC Hydro. >> Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, hey, let's talk a little bit about that. So eight years as president, but I mean, you'd been with BC Hydro G, you were a student, do I have that right? >> Well, almost. I started with BC Hydro 1990, so 35 years ago as an engineer and training in our rotational program that we still have today, so right out of school, 22 years old, and started in our old John Hart Jennerning Station plant in Campbell River, which has since been replaced. And it was a great way to start in the organization, and a wonderful career over those 35 years. >> Yeah, so maybe let's start off just for the listener. Can you talk a little bit about, like, it's got to be a completely different company today than it was 35 years ago. There's been so much change. >> Yeah, there's been a lot of change in our industry, of course, and the business has got a lot more complex. There's entire departments that didn't exist when I started that are there today and very important today. So, but at the core of it, you know, it's about people and assets and working with their customers. So some things have certainly changed, some things have stayed the same. >> Yeah, and it's no doubt a much bigger company today than it was 35 years ago. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we've grown the business, the assets. We just put the site C-DAM in service, for example. We've gone through quite an intensive period of reinvesting in our assets over the last 20 years. That carries on for sure. And we're building up the grid to serve more customers, more people now doing things like I said that didn't exist back in the day. So much bigger organization, much more challenging environment, much higher goals, more ambitious organization for sure. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I'd like to get around to the more challenging environment today. But I do want to dwell a little bit on the past and talk a little bit about sure. >> Yeah, sure. >> Because so you mentioned the first plan that you worked at when you were an engineer in training is no longer there, it's been replaced. So maybe a little bit about that. So what plan was that? And I guess, you know, why was it replaced? >> Yeah, it was a really kind of important plant in my career. Having started there, I later was in charge of the region that it was part of in the operations group. And then of course, in charge of as executive vice president in charge of all the generation in BC Hydro. And it was an old plant built just after World War II very quickly. It was built in a very important environmental area. It was in the middle of a park. It was on the one of the best salmon streams in the province. And it, we came to realize that there was quite an environmental risk there given the risk of flow interruptions that can impact the salmon habitat downstream. So when I was in charge of that region, we initiated a redevelopment of the site. And we ended up carrying that through all the way to completion with our great team, of course. And we pursued the redevelopment through a quite interesting procurement model. It was what we called it the time of public private partnership. Really a design build-up rate model. And we ended up doing that with Essencee. Lavelin, as they were known in the day. And it was, we gave them the latitude to design the project. And they ended up coming up with an underground option, which we weren't expecting, but we're really pleased with. And the project was subsequently built. And it was under budget. It was on time. And remarkably, there were no lost time incidents among the construction crews on the project. So really extraordinary success. About a billion dollars. Was the budget and really pleased to have that project finished. That really removed a lot of very significant hazards for us, not just environmental hazards, but seismic hazards. Oh, because that is one of the most seismically hazardous parts of Canada, really. Camel River experienced probably the largest earthquake in recorded history. It happened just after World War II. And it was about a seven and a half on the Richter scale. So it is a significant seismic area. So the site is in much better shape. So really neat for me personally, to have been part of the whole arc of that from dealing with aging assets in 1990 all the way through recognizing that it was this very significant issue. And then the procurement and construction and replacement. So great, great asset, great story industry. So how big a plant is that one? Well, that is one of our coastal plants. So the new plant is 135 megawatts. So relatively small plant, but very strategically located for us because it's on Vancouver Island, which we only generate about a quarter of the power used on the island on the island. So from a perspective of capacity and local support for the transmission system and our customers, it was very critical that the plant be replaced and be reliable. Right, right. So maybe for the listener, just because I think this one's this one's really interesting because you mentioned the environmental considerations, the fish and fish habitats. So for somebody that's unfamiliar with these sorts of challenges and how you and how you build to address them, how different is the new plant? What are the sorts of things that had to be taken into consideration that the original plant wasn't doing that presumably now, you know, you don't have the same risk factors for for spawning fish? Yeah, that's a great question. So the original plant, there was a bypass around a fall. So we took water through some wooden pen stocks and then they went through the generating station and back into the river. So there was about a kilometer and a half section where the water was taken out of the river and then put back. And what would happen if we lost the entire plant either through just a trip or within the generating station or loss of transmission, you could have the entire flow in the river would be curtailed. And that would result in a drop in the elevation and stranding of fish and dewatering of the fish in the gravel. And so that was a pretty serious thing and we did have some near misses on that in the last 20 years and there was a lot of work with regulators and concern and the organization about that. So the key feature of the new plant was we put a flow bypass in. So if the generator tripped off, one of the three generator tripped off, we could put the water through a pressure reduction valve. And there's three pressure reduction valves that can bypass up to 80 cubic meters per second, which is a really good flow for the river. And so as soon as we lose a generator, we put water through the pressure reduction valve. And those were quite interesting components in themselves because you have to dissipate quite a lot of head. And obviously not generating electricity. And it had to operate with high degree reliability. And very quickly, so there was a lot of engineering challenges to be solved. So that was one of the key features of the project. And it really makes this plant unique, I think. And there's probably a handful of those in the country today. So it's very interesting, a very interesting asset. Yeah, yeah, no, I bet. So you mentioned on time, under budget, and no longer lost time. Are you able to say that about all the projects you were talking 35 years? That's pretty unique, right? I mean, that's like the trifecta. It is. And we also did some really interesting work with the First Nations communities there, the Three First Nation communities that have territory in the area. And we did some really interesting procurement and claimant and work with them on the project. So this, the whole thing was just really, really successful. And for me, really stood out as a highlight of my career and really appreciated, really privileged to be part of that. And just one again, want to crank up the team. We had a wonderful team that worked on it over, you know, when you work on something like that, it's really about a 15 year period, right? Because you have people toiling away in the planning phase and trying to figure out what to do all the way through a design and procurement and construction. So just an extraordinary journey for everyone involved. Yeah. So that's one that you were you were you were part of it from kind of from the beginning to the end. You finished your career at BC Hydro with Site C coming online. Were there were there any pro any projects? I know, I know there were no doubt quite a few, but any any projects between those two that also were our standouts that that had things that, you know, that really really stuck for you. Yeah, I mean, we I'm one of the things I always kind of characterized my my responsibility as a leader as we were, you know, trying to leave the place better off than we found it. And we were literally able to do that with the reinvestment campaigns. So we, you know, we started in earnest reinvesting in the assets around 2005 and and and through that, you know, it ramped up over time. And we were doing, you know, in any at any one time, there were doing hundreds and hundreds of projects, including, you know, ranging from small one or $2 million projects, like I said, up to the the billion dollar John Hart project and eventually the, you know, the 16 billion dollar site C project and they included plants to expand the the system. So growth project as we call them as well as sustaining projects and and the whole gamut of generation transmission and and distribution. So, you know, for me, the the highlights, the, you know, where I focused for always the the trickier one. So we did a rebuild of the the upper portion of the the Bennett dam replacing the riprap and and that was, you know, a very tricky project that required, you know, a lot of, you know, the seasonal constraints and you had to do it, you know, with, you know, avoiding, you know, the high water periods of a year and we we did an extensive early contractor involvement process with contractor. And I'm really just mapped up every step along the way of of the work that had to be done. And including the, you know, extensive quarrying and transportation of the rock and then what what ended up being almost a ballet of placement of these rocks and excavator, which is quite extraordinary and that project was was very successful. It went through a whole, you know, utility commission regulatory process. We got lots of support there for the project. So what stands up for me are the ones that were just really tricky and and the team came together to find solutions and work with our contractors, our stakeholders, First Nations and partners to, to, you know, bring forward a great result at the end. So that was, that's another example, but many, many examples transmission lines and and the like. One project we're working on or we're working on today and I have to be careful with my pronoun here because I'm going to say we, it's really they, they're working on now. 35 year have it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Is the Northwest transmission line or North Coast transmission line? It should say right. And that is the five-intercating line from Prince George to, to Terrace. That's really intended to open up the Northwest to extensive economic development, critical mineral mine. It's an LNG project support facilities. Yeah, like and it is really a nation scale project that that will impact the whole country because it's really opening up a huge export corridor for Canada. And I think something that all are along Canadian should be interested in and aware of and paying attention to and the interesting thing we're doing here that's different for us anyway is the we're proposing a joint ownership model with First Nations along the line. There's 14 First Nations that include both the redditary and elected systems and leadership systems and and we've been working through those negotiations and agreements and just before I left we did we did sign a non-binding term sheet with a subset of the First Nations, a really good progress there and we credit the work that was done in Ontario by Hyder One who made the path for that model and you know we're following closely in the footsteps and appreciate their leadership on that. But you know it's an example of in this day and age you really have to do things differently and we have to do different things and this is an example of you know we're stretching and First Nations, leaders along the way they are stretching to try and really do this big big thing together that will have a significant impact and benefit to the entire country. Yeah yeah yeah and and again that's another topic that I hope will have a chance to circle back to but I want to follow up maybe pull on this thread. You mentioned the reinvestment campaign 2005. What triggered a reinvestment campaign in 2005 was it kind of like an over build from the 60s, 70s into the 80s and then everything was on pause for a time? Yeah I mean we finished the major construction period in the mid 1980s and at that point there was a surplus of power and the you know the other and there was a drop in the load forecast with the recession in the 80s and there was a real downsizing of the organization and so the big plants you know in the 90s were still relatively new you know and certainly in hydro power terms and you know they didn't eat a lot of work they didn't need you know there was maintenance of course but but not major in reinvestment so by the early 2000s the assets were starting to show their age and we had some real you know sore thumbs in terms of you know machines that needed work and and you know we started started in on that in you know in more of an ad hoc basis but you know slowly built up our program and both the the asset management program and the project delivery program to pursue that or kind of a really proactive and disciplined way. And it had some pretty good recognition of both our asset management programs and the project delivery systems that we put in place. And for me, it was really about, I didn't want to be doing having one-off solutions or one-off approaches. We wanted a system and that approach to maintaining the assets. And we followed what was in those days that has 55 model for our asset management. And the project delivery approaches out of the PMI institute. And for us, it was not just managing individual projects. It was a program of projects or portfolio of projects, which had all these different resources matrixed into them. So kind of tricky, pretty tricky management problem. And we brought in partners to help with that. We staffed up our own resources. And so there was a significant expansion and the latter part of the zeroes and then another expansion again in the mid teens when site C began. And the organization has gone through in the last couple of years and even further expansion and project delivery capability. One of the masks that you cannot avoid is that everything is getting older. Everything that you're not replacing is getting older every year. And so what was a new planet, a relatively new plant 20 years ago is now needing work, right? So that's the dynamic that utilities BCIB deals with. And you have to organize yourself around that dynamic which we certainly did. Chris, one of the things I asked folks that had come on the podcast is about their journey. And I'd be interested to be interested that I always make the joke when you were a kid on the playground. Is this what you always dreamed of doing? So when you were a kid on the playground, was it, did you dream of being an engineer or was it like a tool to a France champion or did you dream of voicing the Stanley Cup? So how did you get from the playground to that, I mean, that original initial role at BC Hydro? - Yeah, it was always struck by how certain dipitus or random careers and lives are. And that was certainly the case for me. You know, I was good at math and science. I had a couple role models in my extended family of people that were engineers. So I had a bit of a view into that. - Yeah. And at the time, I was focused on something that would translate into a career. So I'd had a little bit of exposure to BC Hydro when I was 12. We went to a big open house of BC Hydro and I recently found all the pamphlets that I could get this thing in the late 70s. And so it was always kind of there. I mean, BC Hydro is of course like in every province, the power company is a big relatively large presence. - Yep. - And they came to campus looking for folks. And I was really pleased that they hired me. But it, you know, I'm very, you know, very grateful that we mutually came to that conclusion. It was a turned out fantastic for me. Over the years, but I recognize it just could have easily gone a different way. - Sure. - Yeah. So I had the chance, you mentioned CITC earlier. I did have the chance and thanks to your team that organized that. I think it was a NERC board meeting in Vancouver three years ago. And you took a bunch of us up to visit. And of course, the site, the like the power station was still under construction. But like one of the things that struck me was, and I've been to a lot of facilities, but this is the first time that I visited one of so extensive wallet was still under construction. And you know, one of the things that struck me is was how large a project it was. It wasn't you, I mean, the company was not simply building a dam and a power plant. You were building roads, you were building bridges. You were, you know, the enormity of the project was I found a real eye opener. From your perspective, 'cause you had a pretty significant hand in that project. Maybe talk a little bit about the complexity of it. - Yeah, it's, so my involvement, I worked on the early iteration of the efforts back in 2006. And we spent about a six months kind of dusting off the work had been done that had been done previously. And there had been investigations in Decide C back into the 50s. So there's a lot of work. And at that time, you know, we looked at all the issues and recommended that it merited further consideration. And this as far as we went in 2006. And then there was a whole team set up to do that work. And I came back to it in after the final investment had this decision had been made by the board and the government. And we were just starting into construction. So that was some 2015, summer 2015. So I was involved with it for about 11 years through construction. And it was just an incredibly challenging project and down both just that what we were trying to do, building a dam and a powerhouse. And like you say, roads and bridges and transmission and substations and the like. But we had a lot of issues of roads as has been very public in the course of construction and had to deal with just many, many challenges along the way. And that's of course what translated into the higher cost that we ended up experiencing. And I just really again, I wanna credit the team for all of the work that was done just the enormous persistence and endurance that the team showed and the creativity and the face of challenges. I still remember the day we had to decide what to do about COVID. And ultimately we decided to scale down. A lot of the construction activity, we kept the core work required to maintain the river diversion schedule underway. So we could run a much smaller camp than kind of keep people separate and distance and safe. But what an extraordinary thing. And that was just one thing. And in those 11 years that was, we had to deal with. - Yeah, and I got to see the camp. And even the camp itself was impressive in terms of the scope and scale. - Yeah, people come from all across Canada to work on the project and really need to see people from British Columbia of course. And we had folks from Alberta because sightsees is actually quite physically close to Northern Alberta. But we had people from Quebec and Newfoundland and it's something the whole country should feel some pride and ownership with. And really pleased with the result of what we were able to produce there. - Yeah, yeah. Chris, one of the things that I know you've had a focus on has been customers. And so I wanted to chat a little bit about customers. And you know, has that been something that has changed over the years? Well, I mean, I've been in the sector as long as you have. I do recall in my early days we didn't talk much about customers. - Yeah. - Talked about ratepayers sometimes. - Yes. - Yes. - But I mean, that's, you know, when you kind of look at the broader sweep of it, that's actually a really significant change in terms of the centrality of customers today versus sometimes we talk about ratepayers 30 odd years ago. - Yeah. Yeah, that's a really, a really great question and point. The, so of course we're up monopoly like other, common, common structure in our industry. We're also a crown corporation. So I think that gave us a little bit of a leg up respect to a focus on the customer because we've always been very attuned to the fact that our customers are in, you know, indirectly our owners really through the government. And so there has been always been a strong ethos of serving the customer in BC Hydro and getting the lights back on, which you hear that language in the company. What I think has changed, I worked in the key account management group in the mid 90s, which was a really great experience for me, just getting close to the customer. to understand what their challenges and needs were and expectations. And what I think has changed over time is our willingness to do things differently. So I remember at the time, we were bringing forward ideas and suggestions. And there was a lot of weight given to the status quo. Well, this is how we do it. So let's keep doing it that way. And I think over time, we've learned to be, to take more risk and to try things and knowing that you can try something. And it doesn't always work out. You know, a few, about 15 years ago, we brought in two part rates, you know, a rate where there was a level for an initial consumption and a higher level at the moment. And we brought them in for residential commercial and industrial. And the rate at the time met the objectives for the residential and the industrial customers. It didn't for the commercial customers. And there was a bit of initial finger pointing around that. And I remember the very quickly people realized, wait a minute, that was a really good thing to try and learn from. And we just went back to a flat rate for those customers. And it was fine. It wasn't a huge investment or for cost. And a really good example of trying something. And if it doesn't work, you can try something else. And so we have been trying to extend that philosophy with our customers and just have a willingness to try different things. And today, you know, we have our core rates. But we also have some optional rates. So we've got an optional time of use rate, time of day rate, and an optional flat rate for our residential customers. And I know there's, you know, thinking about other optional rates we can provide. So just the idea of providing choice to to customers. And the other thing I really, I came to realize particularly as president and CEO is just how challenging it can be for customers to interact with a large organization. And I would see that through, you know, you'd get these letters where people had struggled to express their problem and to get a solution. And obviously those were the exceptions. But one of the things I did early in my 10 years, president, as I put my phone number, my direct office phone number and my personal email on the web. And so I would get, you know, probably half dozen outreaches from customers a week. And we had a team to respond. And, and, but for me, it was a good window into, you know, what were our customers experiencing and how was the organization, you know, responding to that. And, and a bit of a safety or a escape valve if you will pressure or res valve because, you know, sometimes people get quite, quite upset dealing with large organizations. And it's really good to have that, that outlet. And I felt, you know, I provided that outlet. I was just a person for the end of the week to reach out to and, and, you know, when the normal systems weren't working. So that was a, something I would recommend to, you know, my fellow CEOs over around, uh, no country is just, you know, put yourself out there and, and, um, I know people were worried when I did that, that that would be abused or we would, we would be inundated or I would be replacing the call center. But that never happened. Now people were quite judicious and they're, they're used at that channel. And I, um, I learned a lot and the organization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, one of the other areas that has changed over all these these years that you've been at, uh, at Hydro has been the relationship between the company and, uh, and the indigenous peoples. Yes. And so, yeah, you mentioned, um, the North Coast transmission line, uh, is it, uh, you know, a recent example of a pretty significant partnership that you're entering into. But I mean, that's, that's changed. And I know, and I know, I know this has been a, uh, an area that has been particularly close to you that, you know, you've personally been very involved in and committed, uh, to, you know, indigenous reconciliation. How about, you know, again, you know, how much of things changed in these 35 years? It's massive, hasn't it? Yeah. It's massive. And so I started with BC Hydro in the summer of 1990 and it was, we were in the midst of the Oca crisis. I remember. Yeah. Which was a very, you know, absolutely one of the low points in the, uh, relationship between Canada and, and our first peoples and, and we were also going through, um, the, the Meech Lake controversy, which most people won't remember, but, you know, we follow very closely at the time. And, um, and one of the issues there was the lack of inclusion of a First Nations perspective in that, in that accord. And, and ultimately that was one of the reasons it failed. So I remember the very dramatic moment in the Manitokal legislature when that happened. So it was a point of, of flux and change. And, and I think where that showed up in BC Hydro is we set up our first Indigenous Relations Group in 1993. Um, and, you know, they just started building relationships. Um, and, you know, really getting to know the First Nations who, who'd kind of been on the outs when it came to electricity development in, in, in BC over decades. Um, and I remember being in the first time, you know, I was in a meeting and, and someone talked about the consultation obligation, you know, which came out of the court cases in the 90s. And that was around an electricity planning process that we were going through and, and, um, and, uh, just realizing that that was something I had had no exposure to understanding of. And, and that was some, you know, that was well into the, the unease one of that moment occurred. Um, I think obviously today we're in quite a different place. We, we learned a lot in our capital projects because, you know, we were going through consultation processes sometimes, um, adversarial processes. Um, and, and through the course of those work got to really know, um, some of the leaders leadership, um, with some of the nations that we were, we're impacting and we're interacting with. And in particular for me, there was the, we did a project in the Fraser Valley on the Stave River called the Breastcon Jennering Station. That was a redevelopment of the dam and Jennering Station in the Quantlin Territory. And, and, you know, we started off, you know, the first time I met the Quantlin was in a regulatory process where we were kind of adversaries in a workshop. Yeah. And, and we ended up, um, just building it, just a tremendous relationship with them over the years. And, you know, we worked through some, some difficult issues. There was an archeological site that was in an unexpected location that got impacted and, and we ended up, um, funding, uh, and invest making an investment in their community center, um, coming out of that. And, um, we got my family and I went to the opening of this, this community center, cultural center. It was just an extraordinary day. Um, we ended up putting these art panels on the dam that were created by an artist, um, from the Quantlin. And we ended up with, you know, um, agreements around the project and procurement opportunities and just a really deep relationship, um, coming out of that. So it, it showed, showed me what, what was, um, what was possible in terms of reconciliation. We weren't even using that term. No, that's right at the time. Yeah. Um, but it, um, it showed me what, what could be, could be achieved, um, but working closely with, with First Nations and, and was certainly, uh, um, you know, a life altering, uh, certainly perspective for me. I had a, just a remarkable moment where I was, um, we were in a, in, in an office on their, on their, um, in their community, out near Fort Langley in, in the Fraser Valley and it was a map on the territory. And I, I realized like I'd grown up in North Delta, which is a suburb of, a BC, a Vancouver. And I, I, um, realized that I'd grown up in their territory. And I didn't even know that that wasn't something that, that was part of my awareness in, in the 70s. And so, um, it, um, you know, I personally, um, learned a lot and grew a lot as a result of, of that relationship. And today, you know, we're in a completely different place. We talked about the transmission one. We, we also just, um, um, you know, about, about a year ago now, we, we issued, um, contracts for, um, renewable power projects, 10 renewable power projects that came out of our, our recent call for power and, and one of the requirements we put in there was, um, a minimum 25% ownership by First Nations up to, within centives up to 51. And we ended up with eight of the projects getting 51% ownership. And the other two, I think we're 49 and 50. So, um, that is, we estimated about six billion dollars worth of construction, capital of which First Nations now control path that, right? So that's an extraordinary thing. And so we went from, um, you know, the barest bit of consultation in the, in the late 90s, to join hold of the ship in the early, um, 2020s. And that's, uh, I think a very positive change. And just, you know, I think a tremendous example. And I think it really harps the really points out what the future is. And the future for our sector and linear development. Generally, whether linear energy development generally, whether it's electricity or something else, is joint ownership with first nations along the way and really working together to achieve these results and achieve, um, get these projects built. Yeah. One of the other interesting aspects of the electricity business in, in British Columbia is the relationship with the United States. But that's undergoing change. It's undergoing certainly challenges right now. And then, you know, you and I both had the opportunity to sit in some cross-border forums, including the electricity sub-sector coordinating council where we've, you know, had had time to work with our colleagues in the States. We're at a particular point in time right now with, uh, with a, uh, administration in the US that, uh, that is, is, is, is more challenging when it comes to its trade relationships. What do you see, uh, as the, you know, the potential future impacts, or, you know, so far electricity has not been pulled into this, but, uh, do you think that's going to remain as we go forward? Yeah. Well, it's a very, um, important development for our industry. And your listeners will know that the electricity grid in North America is, is very, um, much integrated on the ties north south that we can in the United States, are actually quite a bit stronger in most respects than the East West ties. And that's certainly the case for us connecting to Washington State versus Alberta. You know, the, the north south ties about three times the connection to Alberta. We, we at BC Hydro have, have always been very closely integrated in the, in the market and, and that shows up in our involvement in, in committees and organizations north south, like, um, WAC and, or, and North West Power Pool and, and the like. Um, but also we have a very big trading business, which is through our, done through our subsidiary power X. Right. And we, we rely on the market to help balance, you know, the ups and downs of our hydro hydro inflows, which are quite variable from year to year. You know, we plan for average, but so in a high water year, we're selling in a low water year. Um, we're buying, we also have an extensive, just ongoing business around, um, buying and selling electricity in the owner number of transmission contracts and, and produces quite a bit of income from BC Hydro that, Gal goes back to our, our rate pairs and keeps our rates lower than they would otherwise be. And that goes back, um, you know, it was set up in the late 80s. It was, um, I worked there in the 90s and the zeros. And it carries on today. It's a very, it's quite an interesting, um, you know, I think a different model than what is, you see in other provinces. Um, kind of quite a, you know, a quiet success story. in our province and in our country. We're certainly, I know we're certainly worried about the changing conditions, the changing environment and some of the things we're interested and see opportunities and having stronger ties with Alberta and and and sometimes that is seen as a a wires issue like we need to put more wires in place. It's actually also a market structure and regulatory issue. Yeah, because you know the way electricity systems are set up in this country they're very different from province to province and there's there is a real bias in each province to doing to being subsufficient and and and not rely on our neighbors and there's actually barriers that you know, for example, it's difficult for for folks in Alberta to to generators in Alberta sell to B.C. We can buy from their power pool. We can sell to that power pool, but it's you know, it's difficult for them to to do the same thing here. So there are barriers in you, you know, their classic interpermitsual trade barriers. Yeah, in addition to infrastructure issues that that would need to be addressed to to knit the provinces more closely together in terms of electricity and I think that is worth pursuing, you know, these are, you know, even the larger provinces are relatively small in terms of population and and you know, electrical load and and systems are always more reliable and resilient when you when you knit them together strongly. So I think that's an opportunity and I know there's broad recognition, but it's not an easy thing to do for all the reasons that I just stated there. And like you say for now, there have not been tariffs on electricity that obviously could change and that would be certainly a concern. You know, we've we have tried to as part of the government's efforts to, you know, reduce expenditures in the US and travel in the like, you know, we significantly curtailed our engagement with the US, like anyone committees and and conferences and the like, we you know, intentionally said we want to have some empty seats around the table. We want to see one thing to see we're not there. So we were all we were all one before and and now we're we're not and and wanted to make that statement. And you mentioned the ESCC, which is I think a very important forum, particularly when it comes to the cyber risk we we relied a lot on intelligence from from the US around cyber threats and and hopefully that will will continue. Hopefully that is continuing. Obviously not not involved with that anymore, but you know, if it doesn't continue, that will be a loss and the overall system will be will weaker as a result. Because it's a electricity is a great example where we're strong we're always stronger together when it comes to, you know, electrical grants, increasing their interactions, increasing the the strength and resilience of the ties between them and the trade patterns that exist and that that is only only becomes more true when you raise the the percent of renewables in a system. The systems with lots of renewables need to rely on one or two to balance out. Right. All right. So we talked a lot about how much things have changed at Hydro and how different it looks today than it looked back in in 1990. Let's look to the future. If we look out not even 35 years, let's say 25 years because 2050 is one of those landmark years that we talk about, you know, net zero by 2015. So how different do you think Hydro will look as a company in 2050? Is it still going to be the same kind of companies? Is it still going to be a crown corporation? Is it still going to be a monopoly? Is it? You know, what could the future potentially hold? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think you have to start with what is being asked of the electric provider. And to some degree, that's independent of whether it's BC Hydro. It's common across North America. And the two the two things that are being asked of of utilities today is one is in support of climate action, right. So of education with low carbon generation to help our our jurisdictions and countries and the like world. Reduce emissions. And electric electrification remains the most available pathway for our customers to reduce their emissions, right. It's the it's the thing that that customers pretty much the thing that customers can do most easily to reduce their emissions is to electrify in place of fossil fuels. So I think that is a big kind of pressure and expectation on utilities that is is going to have you know impacts. And and the second thing is the the role that electric utilities play in broader economic development. And that has always been true, you know, when we've gone through periods in this country where we're very steep in species and use of electricity like after the first or the second world war. But it's especially true today. So we've come out of a period of very flat or low low growth. And now we're in a period where there is some you know significant requests for burning supply new service from you know from industry and data centers. There's growing populations. And and so when you put those two things together the electrification and the the economic growth that puts a lot of pressure on the utilities and and and it's not just the the the growth, it's the uncertainty and where and when that growth is going to show up that makes it very difficult plan. So I think when you look at the future in light of those pressures, which aren't in my view going away, they're going to be with us for decades for sure, you, you know, the utilities have to look different, right? They, they, you're going to need different relationships with stakeholders and first nations and customers. Right. To get this infrastructure done, governments are going to have to have a role. It, it can't all be on on the utility, right? The things get, things just get too big, right? And there's just too much work to develop in the lake. So we, we are going to have to work in in partnership to, as I said, with all of those groups to get the work done to build up the system, to, to manage the impacts on ratepayers. The one place I do think is useful talking using the term ratepayers when you're, you know, you're thinking about the financial consequences of the decisions because they are a model for the most part, customers pay, pay, pay the freight, right? They pay those rates. So I, I find that in that use, in that, in that contact ratepayers actually an important term. And, you know, and there's a point where, you know, the, the investments that are required are really beyond the ability of ratepayers to carry. And at that point, we need some kind of, of government contribution, right? To societal contribution, as we see with, you know, transit and other major infrastructure investment. So I think it is going to look different. I think it depends on the, you know, the, the pressures and the priorities of the day. We already see, you know, I would say unfortunately some, the management of the focus on climate action. And so I would say that's a, that's a, that's a disappointment. But, you know, there's just so many other pressing problems in our society that, that maybe that is a natural result. But so on the question of the Crown, a CrownCorp status, I actually think in, in that environment having a, a Crown model is actually beneficial. It doesn't necessarily have to, you know, provide all the, the roles and, you know, we've, we've long had independent power producers here, which is a way that private sector can invest in our, our industry. So we don't have to carry everything. But in, in, in an industry that is so tied to everything, it can be helpful to, to have that government backing. And I, I think, you know, I think governments would think twice or wanting to give that up. Right. Just given that, you know, it's a, it's a really important lever for them as they, as they think about, you know, economic development and climate action and reconciliation, you know, giving that up, I think they would, you know, want to think twice about it. And personally, I think it's been a good model for PC over the decades, regardless of the challenges that we might have been facing in any particular time. Right. Right. Now, of course, I've taken way more time than I, that I plan to, but I just had a couple more things. Sure. One, I did want to chat about leadership. But maybe I'll just go right to, right to kind of the future leadership now at Hydro. And I get your sense of, of how you see the, the, the folks that are now taking over as you, you're stepping back from, from that role. So, yeah. You know, what, what, what would you tell the listener about, yeah, Charlotte and the team that she's been assembling at, at Hydro? Well, the first thing is we're really fortunate to have them. So Charlotte Mita is really fantastic as a leader, as an engineer, and as a CEO of BC Hydro. And, and you know, she spent the last two decades or so in our operations, you know, you know, working with frontline, working with management teams, working through, working with customers and first nations, stakeholders and alike, through very difficult problems and, and lots of challenges. So she is very experienced, very knowledgeable, really great in a, in a crisis. And just to, people really want to work for her. That's the one thing that I always some take away when she asks people to do something there, they are, they're all in with that. And I think that's a real testament to who she is as a person. And she's got a great team around her and some of whom are around, you know, we had through, kind of accident and of, of timing, really, we had a number of people retire in the last little while. And it's just people getting to that stage in life. And so she's got some new leaders with her on the team and they've come up through the organization. And I think are well positioned. One of the, the little, sort of, informal, key performance indicators that I'm always quite proud of is that, that including Charlotte, we've had in the last half-thousand years or so, we've had four people come out of our executive team and take on CEO roles in Canadian companies. And that is, an unusual thing. And I think speaks to the quality of people we have at BC Hydro and the focus we've had on leadership development and the challenges we've been addressing. So people get great experience there. And it's neat to see people go off and stretch their wings and take on big jobs elsewhere, really, really proud of that. And, and, you know, Charlotte came out of that succession, planning process, lots of support from the board and, and her colleagues. And really pleased to see her in the role and to see what what she does. Excellent. Okay. Chris, you don't, you don't get completely off the hook yet because we always end with a book recommendation. Yeah. And we added to our reading list. Yeah. And so which book, which book are you going to add to, to our reading list today? Yeah. So I was going to mention abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, but it showed up on President Obama's reading list. So I'm presuming everybody already has that one. But I think it's really important for our sector in particular. The, the, an interesting book I read since retirement is a new book by Rutger Breggman, who is a Dutch historian and it's called Moral Ambition. And he is really encouraging the reader to, you know, take their talents and apply them to the most pressing problems in, in our society and, including things like climate change and income inequality and, and, you know, health outcomes or health outcomes around the world. And really to try and redefine what people see as success in their careers, which, you know, I think he would say is overly focused on financial outcomes today and just trying to get people to think differently about, about what success looks like. And, and I found it a really quite an uplifting book because, you know, there, there are lots of improvements in outcomes, health outcomes and, you know, poverty reduction, lots of, of tremendous changes going on in the world. We have lots of challenges, but, but there have been lots of positive developments as well. And he talks about how the role that individuals can, can have in that. And so that was a helpful for me as I'm kind of on the, in this transition. And I think it would be helpful for lots of people. So that's Moral Ambition by, by Racker Breggman. All right. Recommend that. Yeah. Okay. Terrific. I did a little search here. Yeah. So Moral Ambition, stop wasting your talent and start making a difference. Yes. By by Racker Breggman. And the New York Times says he is a more politically radical Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah. Look forward, look forward to reading that. We will add it to our list. And Chris, let me, thank you for, for, for being very generous with your time. Great to chat and finally get you on the podcast. I'm looking forward to seeing you at our Powering Partnerships event in, in Vancouver, in November. And I don't know, Chris, depending upon what the next chapter is for you, and what you decide to do next, we might have an opportunity to chat again on the podcast. Yeah. What that next chapter is. Oh, that's great. Friends, yeah, I really enjoyed that. Hopefully, I think you said you took more time. I think I was the one talking too much. So you can edit that down to something that people want to hear. Oh, it was, I don't think there's anything we can edit out of this. But Chris, thank you very much once again for taking the time, really appreciate it. Great. Well, thanks, thanks, Francis. Bye, and all the best. For those that have been with the podcast since the beginning and those that have joined along the way, thanks for listening. Please take the time to rate the podcast on whatever platform you use to listen and let me know what you think of the flux capacitor. You can find me on Instagram as the Brad Bradley on Blue Sky as @FrancisBradley on LinkedIn and through our website at electricity.ca. The website for this pod is the fluxcapacitor.ca and it includes links for this episode on the show page, this being episode 122. And while you're there, check out the book club page which provides info on and links to the books which have been recommended by guests on the fluxcapacitor. Including Chris's recommendation, moral ambition, stop wasting your talent and start making a difference by Rutger Breggman. And let's continue the electricity conversation on our Facebook page on Instagram and at Electricity.ca. [Music]