Episode 12 with Edwin van Stipdonk

[Music] Welcome to the StrongSource commodity podcast. We are your host, Metambeon and Alex on the stairs. [Music] Hello everybody, welcome to podcast number 12 of the StrongSource podcast. We have here a very special guest because I know him already for a very long time. He's the CEO of Interfood. He learned me tips and tricks of the world of dairy trading. And I arrived there actually as a junior trader all the way in the south part of the Netherlands to become a dairy trader where actually I could buy a Nea my way into the world of dairy, buying and selling skimmyk powders, butters, homek powders. We went from Greece to exhibitions in Italy to France to Sweden. It was amazing to learn a lot. And I think that if I would describe you, I think you're commercially one of the best guys that I know. I think you are a very strong asset in Interfood. And that's why I think you also now the CCO because it's not easy to work in a known family business and also to achieve what you have achieved. Because I think as well that you have one of the best years ever now in your company and those results don't come just by accident. And I think that also is because one the other thing is you see opportunities. And I think you saw that with futures and of course also with other people in the team but and I think now very much folks also on sustainability and other topics. So I think there you have an eye for these kind of commercial opportunities. I learned a lot and it was in 2012 that I started there and now we work together. But then I sell you the investment intelligence. So that's cool again. So the circle's round and now in the podcast. So welcome Edwin. Very happy that you're here. So I look forward to this episode. Very cool. Thank you, Stark. Thanks for this kind introduction of my time. Be a yes on the bird. Yeah, I know. I also'd like to say something to explain the audience how I know you because I don't know you that long as Alex. I didn't know much about dairy commodities because when I was head of Coco trading for Cargill in the Coco and Chocolate business, the Coco trading and chocolate trading was split. Another person in Cargill managed the dairy book for the chocolate business. So I knew about the dairy trade in terms of his results, his position results. But I'd never really analyzed the dairy market. Now and obviously I got approached by Interfood at some stage to help you finding trading talent. And then I visited Interfood. I also looked at the website, downloaded the Integrated Report and was very impressed by it. And I was fortunate that you guys allowed me to attend the trading meeting. And it felt like being back in Cargill sitting with like 30, 40 traders in one big room. Very young, ambitious people, good discussions. And yeah, I was really impressed by it. And then I was also invited to do a presentation for the youngest group of traders in Interfood as part of the trading academy. That was super nice. And yeah, so now I follow Interfood, obviously, very closely and also the dairy market. It's super interesting. And yeah, that is, I think the bridge to the first question that I have is when I thought about it. And when I talk with young people about getting into the commodities industry, you think about metals, you think about energy, you think about agriculture and agriculture, you think about grains and oil seeds to a large extent, cocoa, coffee, sugar, but not so much dairy. And I find it especially strange because everyone pretty much daily consumes dairy products, milk, the cheese, whatever. So can you tell us why you think among commodity traders, dairy is not that well known. Yeah. Yeah, good question. So we discussed that also internally many times and we don't have the exact answers there. And we do see that the commodity, dairy commodity industry is changing. To start with, the dairy market is actually much bigger than many other soft commodities. However, the difference is that dairy is consumed to a big extent, maybe 90% of its capacity where it's made. So the product, there's no necessity to ship it around the way others of commodities are being transported around the globe. Another reason is the future markets have not developed. And I assume it was, is because that necessity was not there. Maybe prices were more controlled in the past. I don't know, relatively to other commodities. And this has been changed over the last years. I think it was 2015 that the EU quota on production got released. And as of then also, I think the future markets got organized. And over the past, I would say five to 10 years, we have seen a very rapid development of the exchanges around the world. But still, it's only a small portion of the physical traders volumes. Whereas Coco, many others, it's a multiple of the traded volumes. So I think the opportunity is there. And I believe it's a market which is maybe slightly more conservative than others. So there's a lot of opportunity ahead of us. Yeah. I find it fascinating because you would think that any commodity market which is growing would like to have more opportunities for risk management. And especially when you do far-deferred business, you want to be able to bridge the gap between the behavior of suppliers and consumers. Because they actually, a supplier wants to sell when the market is high and the buyer wants to buy when the market is low. And that, in a sense, that gap in behavior, you can use futures for that. So why is it not that in the dairy industry, as you say, that it is bigger than some of the soft commodities that the industry is conservative and doesn't say, "Well, look, we need to stimulate this." And as always, liquidity is the key thing. Because even though liquidity, then people are afraid of having a contract in their book, which maybe doesn't sufficiently mirror the underlying, where you can't easily get in and out when you want to. So what are you doing in industry groups to stimulate people to use the derivative markets in dairy? Yeah, it's a lot of education. So I believe why it hasn't been the success so far, maybe in Europe, relatively to Europe, to the US, is that many of the co-ops in the European dairy landscape have considered futures to be a risk element. So they didn't see it as an opportunity to risk and mitigate a risk on their contracts. I think it has been a lot of education. And gradually now see that there are dedicated risk managers being hired by the bigger companies. And as a result, we see liquidity increasing. But we need time for this change. I think most trading companies were ahead of the curve, as I think it goes for all industries. And now we see also other participants joining step by step. And I think this happens mostly through pain. So pain that they didn't had exposure. In a bakery industry, we have seen huge price peaks on butterfetting the world markets. And again, we're heading now again a peak. And I think it might pass the historical prices that we have seen over the past decade. And with this pain, you see it gradually people getting more willing to look at these risk management solutions. At the same time, three years ago, many Irish co-ops, they forward contracted their, based on their milk price, a three-year milk price, at a fairly low cost. That was prior to the start of the war between Ukraine and Russia. And as a result, these farmers did not look their input costs. So they were exposed. So they went short effectively and had to pay a big penalty to deliver those contracts. So I think over history, you see that gradually more and more participants are joining the game. But it comes also sometimes with a slowdown when certain people make mistakes and gradually they adapt, get better at it. And I see the next five to ten years a lot of opportunity for markets around the world to further evolve and create more liquidity. Because if you look at now, you guys do risk management now, like other traders and some of the producers and big FNCGs. But what do you think that why did input grow so fast? What is the success? Is the people, what did you change, what did you do differently? I think above all, it's our company culture and the people that we have employed and the culture we have created all together. The purpose that brings us together, of together for better, that's how we service, that's how we look at teamwork internally, but also how we cooperate with our business partners around the world, trying to create value for them and with them. Next to this, I believe we have been innovating faster than many of the competitors in the industry. So as you were highlighting yourself around risk management and the same applies to sustainability solutions right now, this is what the market is asking for. And if you're willing to invest maybe a head off the benefits then you can capture a part of that market there. And it's cool to see that people within the business are looking each and every time for new opportunities and they're out there. and then for yourself. when I started trading with you and the European team, you're also still young and you had some more experience than I did already in there. But now you're sea level in the company. What does that change in your role, basically, in things that you do? What is it to be a sea level in a dairy trading company? - A good question. I think I made my career within Interfood in a very gradual way. So it was step by step, moving away, starting as a junior trader, rolling into a trader, more senior position, ultimately running a book, becoming a responsible for the whole franchise in Europe, moving abroad to Singapore, managing that office, that hub, and ultimately getting into the position of CCO where I'm today. So each and every time you become maybe slightly less operational, and I sense that the drive I got from doing it deal when I entered the business as a junior trader, I changed into getting energy of succeeding as a team, or as a PNL, and the team each and every time got bigger, but still I sensed that achieving that success as an organization was a big part of my drive into this role. And not only trading today is part of the day to day anymore, a lot involves strategy and teams and structure, but ultimately I always have the traits and the customer demands in my mind, working on all these elements of within our board meetings. And that for me is a good mix, still being with the teams, sitting with the teams, hearing that day-to-day opportunities and challenges, helping them to be successful, and at the same time building a company that is ready for the future. And you don't miss the traits? I do, I do, every now and then I miss the traits, but it's through the applications that we've built, the team environment, and being able to see the traits that happen in China, in Brazil, in Poland, on a day-to-day basis, allow me to still be there with them, with the teams, and maybe at times help them or prevent certain challenges from happening. So I still feel and consider myself as one of the traders within the organization. So I can't and I don't see myself as a management only. I see myself as a trader who evolved into a more managerial role over the past 16 years. But then also you have different offices, right, around the world. Yeah, so how do you manage that? Because the people all over your response will commercially. So how do you manage that, basically, within the trading company, in different places? Well, effectively, we have the organization set up in three hubs. So there is an A-packup, there's an America's hub, and a European hub. There are three leaders of these PNLs. And ultimately, they are responsible for managing their business. And I, that comes with trust, right? So you delegate that responsibility in full. And that's maybe a very interesting element because I struggled at the start in my CCO role when sometimes people within my team, board team, challenge me and set, but why don't you control that better? Why don't you mitigate that position risk? Why don't you overrule them? And what I've sensed is the moment I start taking over their roles and start making the decisions that they have to make on a day-to-day basis, I start carrying the burden, and I will have a dispute with them whether it was their decision or my decision to step out of an exposure or strategy. And I believe over the past years that delegation is very important in order to have them truly take that accountability and manage that PNL. So it is about finding the right people that can deal with that responsibility. And is it then, do you think, so you've been in the cocoa or my time, you're an interior advent, do you think? It's completely different when you have different offices around the world for dairy commodities then, for cocoa for other salts. Do you think it matters that you're different regions, because they're both traded all over the world. You have different regions, different dynamics. Does it matter? Can you could the cocoa trade be fantastic for a dairy company or a trader be fantastic for a cocoa company? - Yeah, we had some discussions, Martijn and I on that subject, and I'm maybe biased, but so far I've really struggled to see people from the outside, succeed within our business. And Martijn challenged me and said within, in Cargill, I've seen multiple people succeed and move from cocoa to soy and to other ingredients. Well, that made me reconsider and think about this. What I see when people are successful within our company, and that's maybe how I can approach this question, is when they're successful, they are making their careers very rapidly. So I believe when you're very successful within interfood, and you make your career very quickly, and you become certificate holder, and you make impact, and you're being rewarded, and you make steps faster than others, I think most of the time you stay around. You don't move around. You don't move to a competitor, or you don't move to another industry. So from that mindset, I sometimes struggle to see why people would move away from something they truly know. And I ask myself the question, what if in my past 15 years, I would have been reporting to someone within the trading community who didn't know the landscape of dairy well, would that be a problem to me? I might have challenged him a lot. Or here. So I don't know, I wouldn't say it's not possible, because I think other commodities, and definitely the more advanced ones, can bring something that we are looking for as a business, to further advance and grow, but I think it's not easy. - Like to make some comments on that. So I think that you can learn something from all different commodities. And so I'm now reading, I'm almost finished reading the world for sale, and that is, and we have the author, as soon in this podcast, Javier Blas, he knows a lot about cocoa, by the way, but the book to a large extent is about oil trading, and energy trading, and now I'm almost finished, I'm thinking shit, I would have loved to trade oil. Now, okay, I did trade vegetable oil, but not crude oil. - Crude oil. - But not crude oil. But I really enjoyed trading crude oil, and being in that business in Cargel, or vegetable oil, but the same applied for cocoa and that business. So you can learn a lot from trading different commodities while the basics remain the same. And yes, indeed, the analysis that you need to do, the hard work that you need to put into it. And I also think you can learn from other businesses in a large conglomerate, and you can learn from having worked in different companies, because there are many successful companies where you can take the good stuff from, and there are many good people working where you can learn a lot from. So having exposure to other commodities other other companies is good. Now, your other question, Alex, which is also a good one, is other presence in other geographies, does that help? Yeah, I think it is important that if you trade cocoa and dairy, that you have people on the ground, literally. I was very dependent with the information I got from people on the ground in Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Cameroon, what was happening there. But I was also very dependent on the demand as a destination market, like North America. One of the examples of that was during 2008, the great financial crisis, we got very good information about how the North American consumer was behaving. Now, and that information is difficult to get when you are not on the ground. And also some of the things that we learned from the podcast with Chris Mahoney, and what you also read a lot about in the book The World for Sale, is that a lot of trading doesn't need to be flat price, but it's arbitrage between different commodities, relative value, wheat corn spreads, for example, rapeseed oil versus sonal spreads, you have basis spreads. Now, and all those things help. If you have locations all over the world and you follow the trade flows, and if you have understanding of those other commodities, and I can imagine also in the food and trading dairy, you trade spreads between the, the raw milk derivatives. The interesting thing is that a lot of people when they hear about trading, commodity trading, they always focus especially the media as well on the flat price, while a lot of money is made in relative value between different commodities, intra commodities, and then also time spreads. True, but it's less visible, I guess, to the outside. Correct. And to me, and probably that's something that I really like about the dairy industry or my work on a day-to-day basis, the opportunity is really endless. So if you think about the products that you can derive from raw milk, it's endless. And it's very expensive products that come from it, very competitive products. And you have multiple origins, right? There are supply zones in the Americas, in Oceania, in Europe, all these different products offer endless opportunity to trade. And it's like a monopoly to write on the Sunday that I used to play with my father. it's playing on a bigger scale now with a global organization where you have all these information points and opportunities and you have a team with the right capabilities to try and make the right traits at the right time to deliver value ultimately for our customers and suppliers as well as for ourselves. Can you explain us how the S&D works because the core of a commodity trade and I find it fascinating to think about okay you have cows yeah yeah you have cows and they produce basically the 20 24 7. Now this week I was reading an article about in the US discussions about part of the hurts being swapped from milk cows to slaughter cows right these type of things yeah how does it work the S&D and the analysis of supply in the month maybe as a starting point speaking to many other commodity traders but I've learned especially outside of dairy is that our S&D and analysis is maybe less developed than it is in some other industries as a starting point another point I believe that my trading style is very much and I think I've heard it before in your podcast is follow the markets rather than follow the earth follow yeah to some extent not try to predict markets but rather move the waves follow the waves and when something is historical high look at cocoa right well there's a good likelihood that prices will move down right and the opposite rule applies as well and in between we have our regional teams so an APEC team an America's team and an European team that will run their supply and demand balance sheet and they make assumptions where we have our traders meeting we always start we see on the supply side and what we expect to happen in the foreseeable future we discuss where we believe stocks are and how customers are covered and what the month will do but this is not a super detailed exercise and I think there's a lot for us to gain as a business to doing this better and understanding this better in order to capture maybe more value from this in the future but ultimately we make assumptions on what cows will do most cows don't deliver 24/7 by the way so they're also dry a certain time a year more time but yeah we will do the analysis in broad sense yeah do you think that then looking at how much is cover to demand all these kind of things how do you do that I think for listeners it's interesting to hear like do you speak to the markets honestly that's how you get that data is it do you do that more on real data and heart analysis on your own data is that how do you yeah how do we do that so I think the most important element is we have a trading trade and a commercial community of about 80 people around the world so what do we expect from everyone in line with our purpose is share information from your customers and markets openly with the rest because even though you might not see it today you might influence your customer your formation might be a benefit to someone on the other side of the earth having that access to that information allows us to trade so we have thousands about a thousand active customers so on the day to days we share business offers will fund supply contracts inquiries and we make assumptions on where and how far customers are covered and suppliers are comfortable into next month and adding this all together we have a feel on where we expect markets to be heading in the foreseeable future we normally don't predict what the market will do in six months time we predict what markets will do in the next four to six weeks yeah and then if you look at I think that you were strong always in this I recall from our trading meetings we had but what do you see in people when you think they're good what are most of the times elements competences in the people and in traders that you think oh that's certain things that I think are always very useful for these kind of yeah I believe to start with it's discipline so you need to have people that want to be successful and have the drive to win on a day-to-day basis so I think without the right level of commitment it's very hard to be successful in the trading world why because someone at your desk will do better and he will be the one getting the opportunities within the desk and not you I believe you need to be able to connect the dots as seeing having some basic analytical skills that allow you to sense and see opportunities whereas others don't see it and as a third point and this is maybe more visible in the long term while you need to be a team player within our business so you need to be able to work hard for people around you and for your customs and suppliers because if people within our organization see that you work for them and fight for their success they will fight for your success and that ultimately makes you a successful trader can you tell something about are you as a family member and make sure that people believe that they in the organization have a fair chance so that you have not kind of the animal farm type situation but where you have a situation where people think well okay yeah the only business but I have a fair chance to developing myself and when critical decisions are made the strength of the argument is still the causing the direction that we're going to take are you aware of that dynamic or doesn't play does it not play a role in the philosophy yes that question has been asked many times and how is it to work in a family business and what was this for you and I for whatever reason I never felt per se that I never dealt with into food as if was a family business I worked at it and I treated I wanted to be treated and I treat also my younger brother and as one of the commercial guys within the organization I believe and we've discussed it a lot within the family and also within the organization is who do we want to be so we I know multiple very traditional family businesses and we feel that that's not the type of business we want to be we consider our organization not a family we consider our organization a team and we want to put the best players in the field to make sure that we will play champion league each and every year and whether that's for people that been working 30 years within the company or whether that's for people that have the even stepped on glass name it doesn't matter we want to be there for the future and we don't want to compromise on last name or track record or other things we believe it's important to look at what people are there to contribute and treat everyone in the same manner and in terms of the future what do you see as the main challenges in the dairy industry and linked to that one big issue at the moment in other commodities is the EUDR regulation which is as you said maybe slightly different in dairy because I'm not so much aware of deforestation in Europe itself but still I can imagine that at the reason for the EUDR is at the end of the day is climate change is emissions to what extent does that impact the dairy industry and I was into food and how are you personally thinking about how to address that for the future yeah and so for me also the biggest challenge for the dairy industry is definitely sustainability linked right so what is the CO2 footprint it's massive right similar to meat farming and the industry as such has a challenge so this is an issue that will be addressed by consumers ultimately but also by regulators in the shorter horizon and next to this being a challenge we consider it one of the biggest opportunities so as we are reviewing our new strategy it's about how can we continue to deliver progress to our stakeholders and the industry and delivering more sustainable dairy to the marketplace is one of our key pillars so we try to help co-ops and farmers through multiple interventions to reduce their footprint and we believe that there is a lot to gain in the industry and yes some of these interventions come at a cost at a reasonable price but we believe that there are also marketplace there that will pay for these and ultimately it's to allow the market to thrive in the future next to this if we would not change the industry all together then I think the CO2 footprint but also animal welfare challenges will ultimately drive consumers away from dairy long term and this is also something that we are looking at so what kind of solutions can we provide our customers through precision fermentation or blended products with palm and dairy allowing them to on the one side reduce the CO2 footprint and maybe also have slightly more competitive solutions in the future and there was a challenge from also some of the other traders and there was notice for dairy girls on oil and fats and others on the sugars like as a producer you're owning the plantage or you're owning the cows etc as yours right so it's a trade is that it's harder to add your value in that sustainability whereas only certain volumes of the crop or certain of the milk production is only CO2, that's CO2 footprint. And that volume is still relatively small to in the crop or in the milk production. So how, as a trader, can you still add value when that production is relatively still small, with the footprint to basically do something with it towards the companies that need to buy and reduce the footprint, like multinationals, etc. And what we see is the biggest challenge today is the ability for many of these producers to organize for themselves. So there's an information gap and maybe capacity gap. So our role here is to help them deliver what the consumers want to achieve. So our value proposition is about helping our partners to change, to deliver this change and to organize for this. Is the trading house set up to do that? Because trading house has always been the purpose of buying, selling, etc. So you need to somehow change as well, then, a bit of the organization, people that you have good points. So how do I look at our business? And I see ourselves as a trader, but at the same time as a merchant. So we have, and we had once a strategic session and the consultant wanted us to make either left or right, or a trader or a merchant. And I came to the conclusion that you don't need to change. You don't need to choose between left or right. So we believe that these go hand in hand very well. So our ability to be emergent, I think drives our success ultimately also as a trading house. So being a good merchant, developing value propositions, engaging with our business partners suppliers and customers on long-term contracts and partnerships provide us flow. Our business model thrives about all the information and flow. So ultimately what we try to do with the merchant side of our business, which is effectively 90% of who we are, is generate flow that we can trade upon within our business. And this goes, I think, very well together and allows you to invest in both sides of the business. So therefore also innovate, find new value propositions, making sure that you can grab, grasp more market share ultimately on the marketplace. But if I look at nicely, maybe you can compare Coco again with Derry, because in Coco, especially now there is a crisis, there is a crop scare, and people wondering how is this going to evolve and prices to be fertilized. So people are talking about extension of plantations at the same time with the EUDR. That is going to be complicated. So the big upside potential in Coco is yield improvement. So from maybe 500 to 800 kilograms per hectare, and maybe double that. Now, what are the opportunities in Derry for that? So to what extent is there a possibility to increase the yield of cows versus, yeah, in the environment that it is likely that herd numbers are going to come down in Europe? Yeah, it's a good question. So I think the majority of the growth that we have seen in the last two decades, three decades, has been on yields. So more milk cows milking way more, and ultimately the number of cows reducing. I think today there are maybe cloned cows in China that produce, I think, a massive amount of milk that you don't want to know. But I think there are, in Israel, good examples of the best yielding cows in the industry. I believe I don't know the numbers by heart, but I thought it was around 15,000 liters a cow a year, which is, I think, almost more than 50 percent, more than a traditional cow would produce in the rest of the world. So if you assess that the yield improvement that could still be out there, that is massive. Yeah, and that ultimately also drives sustainability to some extent in the industry because you would see that the CO2 footprint through yield improvement goes down. Yeah. But I think that cow probably looks like a kind of hulk hogging cow, but that's very, that's very, probably. On this, so there are still many opportunities for the world of dairy. How do you think that actually looking at some regions, for example, South Korea is buying a lot of cheese and they did, do you think that that will still pop up that some regions will start eating more, much more dairy, whereas they were a very low-consuming region before. I think still the correlation between wealth and dairy consumption is there. So there are many developing countries that are just at the starting point. If you look at the number of the kilograms of dairy that it consume a year, it's nothing. So yes, there's ample opportunity to grow. But also now within the European Union, we got very surprised this year about how well cheese is being consumed by all of us. So I don't know where we put our cheese on nowadays, but apparently we are finding new ways every month to consume more cheese. And I think the Asian culture and the Asian region has so much opportunity for the high-value products. I see cheese and fat and also higher proteins that will drive a lot of growth for the industry. Did the Chinese have a cheese culture? They have, they're starting to consume more cheese. It's mostly still processed cheese that equals you, but also that is a growing category in the industry. Do you think that also? So we thought about Asia and you have worked in Singapore. So then basically how I see a lot of traders, especially young ones, want to travel around the world. They want to see everything. You have been flying around the world already for some years. Would you recommend for young traders, et cetera, to go abroad, to have that experience? Or can they better stick to the head office of a company and develop there? What is your view on that? I have a personal view there. So it has been four years in Asia and that was something that I knew that I would do. Even though I didn't know that I would work at Interfoot at that time, so it was a dream, a personal dream for me and my wife. And we went to Singapore with two kids. We came home with three. And it was a fantastic period. So I think the quality and the adventure associated with moving abroad and being exposed to new cultures and challenges that you don't challenge when you stay where you are, right? And where you're raised, I think it allows you to develop as an individual, right? It's personal development. But it also allowed me to develop in on the business level. I remember coming to Singapore and I thought, I know how this dairy market works. And then I came to learn that, oh, but the dynamic in Asia is completely different. Hey, many of these customers don't want to work with me, right? I, my style is not what they like. So yes, I could manage in a proper way multinational customers and some of the suppliers in Oceania. But I've seen that the way that the locals were managing the customers in the region was in a completely different way. So I entered, I left Europe knowing pretty much how your business worked. And I thought I can one-on-one copy paste that and move my roots. But I came in a standstill for nine months, swimming, trying to survive and add value to the teams and the business there. So that was a big stretch, but was worth it. Yes, it was worth it. And it helps you now in your current role as well that you have been in the other side from your own company as well. Yeah. So we asked all the other ones as well, what's your style? And you just said about my style didn't really work out in Asia. Tell us about your style. How did you describe that? I think my style on trading and I think already set is, I follow ways more than I try to be smarter than the markets. I am maybe sometimes emotional. So I quickly try to change step away when I see strategies don't work. Whereas I, especially the last few years, learned that people with maybe slightly more patience and maybe some stronger analytical skills have been stronger in this respect. I influence quite a bit. So I think I'm a strong influencer. It allowed me to own board partners and convince partners. But it also sometimes I've learned that I try to push something through maybe too fast and not listen carefully to the opinion of the people around me in the organization. So I think that are a few of my-- Some of your style. Yeah. Maybe you remember that from the past, right? Sitting not far from me, Stairk? No, I think that what you say, the way is, but I think that you're influential and push through that I see. Yeah. If you wanted something, then you would get it. And sometimes runs straight through me to that client because she had a better, a long relationship or I think sometimes the role that you had helped. But I think that's where you see the-- and the way is I think that's a strategy that you select, right? So if you say long term, short term, going over ways, I think that makes sense. Where predicting industries is super hard, especially what you see now with the volatility. You've seen it in Go Go, nobody predicted that. Nobody predicted a war. Nobody predicted a Go-vid. So there's so many elements that you cannot predict. So it makes sense. But then it's interesting to see, of course, now I don't work with you now, but I think that the development of you is from the trade that you were through the sea level. I mean, has been probably a roller coaster for yourself as well, an interesting one to get to know itself. Yeah. Yeah, I have some more questions about the S&D, yeah? So do you also look at Goat Milk, for example? En daar are alternatives, en als elmen, die als een heel positie is. - We niet het goed, Milk. Waarom we hier niet veel van ons hebben voor ons ontwikkelen, dan vertelden we het niet. En we niet het korelaatste voor het ook nog wel goed is. - OK. Daar are alternatives, plant-based. Als we de customere portfolio zien, we zien dat de customere niet-perseiseerde plant-based-alternities voor de replications. Ja, ze zijn de producten van de koeien, de producten van de bakery, dezelfde producten, een eenke echte prijs, een voetbeende, ja ze zijn de producten van de producten, een novel voet, of de prijsbeleidsgekomen, een gevolgige toeperend. En die producten zijn de monitor, we gaan het sporen en we gaan het weer in de futur weer nemen. We believe dat het een een groot geval van het valier is om ons de customere basis te hebben. Ik heb het al gezet, omdat in het echte dag er replatiem is. Ja, nou. En dan om de demanden te hebben, ik denk dat, again, met koeien, waarbij koeien is het niet een stabel voet. Je niet moet het als weet of rijd. Maar bij hetzelfde tijd is het een eenkele luchtje. People like het en die ofte een impuls van het, die in de karte, of de gas station. Als je een geval van het geval, ik ga niet het als een stabel voet. Het geval is ook meer als om te stijden als je op de bevrijd in de moring kan worden. Je kan het als stabel voet, maar het geval is ook een kleine, voetbeende luchtje. Als ik het geval van het geval van het geval van het geval van het geval, ik denk dat de geval van het geval heeft een heel erg spensen. En ik heb even een notice met mij, als ik mijn shoppengel aan de Albert-ijn doe, ik heb het op de prijs van kilo. - Ja. Waar ik zien, wat van de slices zijn, 35 euro van kilo, en de andere van de 23. En dan denk ik, 'Oh, ik heb het een of twee extra slices voor dezelfde money.' En ik heb het al gezegd dat het al gezegd van de jonge of jonge of jonge. Ik heb het niet niet hetzelfde. - Ik weet het niet. Je moet het op je paletten. - Ja. Maar hoe moet je als een dertraider als een deel van het geval van het geval van het geval van het geval van het geval? en nu werkt het bij, in punt van stemen Armin geven, jongens nemen600 goed gehaktiveerd of weer goed severely druk, en of het zo zo een lingende ontstandhaar heeft. Het is ervan dat olzwerker staat en tepen. En er voi ook geen waarom ik zoietsen met jouw gegeven is, en dan je hebt een heel mooi gegeven dat is supergeven en je hebt gemotede gegeven dat ik niet zo goed heb, maar dat is nog steeds meer gegeven dat het een paar jaar was. En ik denk dat we zien als een change in de industrie dat we kouden in multiple producten in gegeven. Dus veel van de proces, alternaties, gegeven als een ingrediënt. En waarom? Het is goed. En dat is wat het gegeven is. Ja, maar ook andere gegeven. Er is zo veel gegeven. Als je het gegeven is, dan is het gegeven. Dus in veel producten, nu het is, we hebben het en dit is een trend in Europe, in de U.S. er is meer gegeven en in de gegeven er meer gegeven. Dus we believe that this category will thrive de volgende 10 jaar. Als je me vandaag de meeste challenge dat ik op de supply in de maand, balance sheet is waarom dit tepleik is. Dus als de westeren in de U.S. of met de exception van de U.S. er zijn verschillende dingen om te schilen, omdat er zoveel voor de stijden en de stijden in de procesen in de gloop. Dan denk ik dat de normaalse suspecten, zoals China, misschien Russia en andere markt, moeten we dat de maandgap in de volgende gegeven. Of we zullen zien, prijs en exploden, misschien zoals Coco heeft als de proces in de volgende 6 maand. Interesting. Ja, er is een vraag dat we willen te laten zien, omdat de zinse zin voor het is. Dat is de boek. - Ja. Kan je het dan ook in de boeken vervangen? Waar je dat denk dat het helpen was in mijn business en in de personaliteit en de traden? Ja, ik heb het in een keer in de vliegde. Ik denk dat ik niet langer met mijn wife. En dan vond ik dat als de konferen van Dubai, daarvoor in de doel van de geelvoet. En dan zeg ik dat ik een geef van je heb. Ik heb het in de boek geef, en dan ze zei ik dat het boek had gevoerd. En het was eigenlijk de wereldpacéle. - Ja. Ja, ik luk dat. En de boek dat ik op de voedigde aan het werkde, dat ik nog steeds een dag bij de boek geef, en dat is voor mij een maastreet, en het is een koudboostelking van de voil. En dan moet ik het boek uitgeven, maar ik denk dat de interpenership, die er daar is, misschien met een level van on de eetje, ik denk dat het niet bij de stendere stil is, maar het is impressive wat de ES has realist. En de advijks dat de ES als zien is, ik denk dat het een fantastische boek aan het verwerpen in de basis en het vermoedige advijks dat er associatert. Ja. - Hoe is het vervelend van de wereldpacéle? Ik heb niet de wereldpacéle, maar ik denk dat de wereldpacéle is. Het is niet vervelend van de wereldpacéle. - Nee, nee. Dat is een geef dat je voor mij wil zijn. Ik zou zeggen dat de wereldpacéle houdt veel van de parten van de wereldpacéle, maar wat ik leuk heb van de wereldpacéle is om het deel, het deel, het deel, het deel, het is meer associatief. En dat is ook de boek-teids dat ik echt leuk zou bereiken. Het is niet vervelend van de wereldpacéle, dus ik heb niet alweer vervelend van de wereldpacéle, ik vervelend de wereldpacéle, waar ik kan leren. Dus, managerial boek, of boek een succesal company, ik heb ook de kargiel, wat is het? Wat is het? - Ja. De wereldpacéle boek, voor kargiel. En ik heb het niet geval om even te leren 20 beperken van de eerste boek. Het is. - Orbaleridden. Boer. - Als je een keer een keer aan het vervelend van de wereldpacéle is, en van de company, of een andere persoonlijke. Het is de hele historie van kargiel. Het is niet anders. - Het is een hartreer. Ik weet het nu niet, nu je weet het. Ja. - En dat was ook een van mijn tekenen van de boek, het is aan de penuurship. Ja. - En het is aan de pechering. En een van de dingen dat ik niet leuker van general journalist en het vervelend van de traiting in de strijd en de traiter is de focus aan de manier dat is gehaald, de traiting, het vergeten van de masief risken en het penuurship dat is gebruikt, en ook ook de capitalen in de strijd. Kan je er iets aan het vervelend van de tijd waar je ergens onderzocht is? We hebben een veel risken. We zijn ervaring op een veel risken, want het is niet alles. Back to back dat je doet. Het is niet vrolijk. - Het is geen vrolijk. Dus kan je het niet zeggen? Dat is ook een van de mooie dingen van de World For Sale. Er zijn veel exemplen waar je ergens in een situatie is, waar je het feelig is. Dit is deze mensen, die ze een masief risken hebben. En ja, je hebt de potentieel voor vanafoon, ik heb een heel interessant uitgevallen, maar de dingen kan ook gewoon vroeg. En dat was, voor example, dat glenk-orkelten, dat van de roon, ik heb er veel dingen in de cargeldruid dat bluurt. Een van de mensen in het vervoerde niet meer, maar kan je een situatie waar je in de roon van je vader en de boer, en je zegt, "Wauw, dit is iets wat ik niet benen." Of iets waar je zegt, dit is een echt exciting riskenreverd. De proposition. Dus je weet het was risken, maar je denkt, dit is een heel groot opportuniteit en we hebben een positie om te gebruiken. Een groot vraag? Let me try to answer it through maybe risk that we have experienced. Dus misschien 5, 6, 7 jaar geleden waren we in een heel groot partenschap met een van onze grootste customis. En we had a project where we would take up all kinds of Jesus that were second grade cheese, third grade cheese, dat was geen huis voor deze product meer, maar er was een kleine shop, in Australië, die een goed product was om deze cheese in een heel groot product te worden. De kleine company had een product in de familie van de wilde. Dat was heel moeilijk, we hebben het gevoel dat een heel groot cheese, we hebben het gevoelde, en we schippen het naar de markt en we betekent de prijs, als we het gevoelde. Through deze partneratie, we hebben het gevoelde van een heel groot deel, en er zijn ook veel geweldigd dat er meer complex dan de dag tot dag werkt, dat niet exist. Dus je moet er heel veel voor zijn. Dus onze verhoorlijking van dat point was, we willen zeggen dat alles is. Dus als een business partner komt met een challenge dat hij voor de gevoelde, en een opportuniteit dat hij voor de assisten met, we willen zeggen dat, we moeten ook de organiseren zelfs opgegen. Dus als je een opportuniteit probleemt als een trader en gewoon denk dat hij een contract is en het is gedaan en het gaat worden. Je moet er vooral worden. big trouble. So this betas lose one of our largest customers and cost a lot of money to our business. So my learning has been on opportunities that are big, organize themselves also for the size of the price and rather if that's some more time and capital in order to organize it in a proper way and leave also a professional impression behind to the business partners then jump on opportunity and think you can approach this as a simple trait that you do on a day-to-day basis. That's a great example for my guidance and of the audience what can you convert cheese in? So this opportunity it was ultimately cheese as an application in processed cheese. It's all about solids. So how much fat and protein do you get in order to process reprocess into a final product? So what we did is we bought all kinds of cheeses from cheddar to mulch to you don't even know that those type of cheeses, montrey, jack and other things you don't even know that they exist and they were pressed, molded it, it was in frozen shape and then repacked into a new shape and shipped to destination. So there's a lot of things happening and that doesn't apply only to the dairy industry that you don't know with food and it's not always nice. In the pre-scripten just before this one we also talked about is that learnings that you had, some of the people we had here in podcasts they also had people they worked with that they looked up to or that they said were amazing mentors or that they so what were for you learnings or people that have influenced your career so far? I think at the start of my career I have worked with multiple senior guys that made a very good impression on me and allowed me to develop in a certain direction. Most of these guys don't work for interfood anymore but they work at different trading companies right now. So I looked up to them and they helped me develop certain traits that allowed me to be successful. Later in my career I started to look for non trader capabilities and mentors that allowed me to build things that allow me to develop into a better manager and make more impact on a wider group within our organization and I think two things that I remember most and that helped me a lot in the past five years is there to invest in your organization as this will prevent issues from happening and it's a way to also generate more income driving being responsible for the income of our business. It's very easy to fight costs because my team is responsible for the gross margin that we have to generate. So fighting within the board about every penny of investments that we will make is something that I have been doing but I've also proven to be wrong multiple times on this and so that is an insight that these investments have allowed us to be the company we are today investing in the right quality of people not penny wise bound foolish. Next to that I and maybe that's partly inspired by the book I read and I recommended to read King of Oil he was a bit of a bad man to some extent so he liked to do shady business and I don't want to say that I like to do shady business not at all but every now and then it was good that there was a mentor that helped me also to stay on track and maybe not fight for things that are third tier or fourth tier and it helped me to focus on the pearls on the business leaders on the things that are there to stay and I think this focus has helped me to drive the company also in a certain direction that is where we are today. Yeah. And in case your father will listen when both guys live can we give him some credits for what you have become so far? Well he has made me a starting point right so big as credit obviously he has been a mentor to me so that was the closest link for me to ask questions and I think it also and that's maybe being part of the family gave me some opportunity that many other people within our business didn't have so I had access to him day in almost day out right asking questions challenging him getting feedback on ideas that helped me develop myself in a certain way. I think today big credits should be given to him by allowing me and other senior people within our business to do that thing. I believe trading and I think good managing at that sea level is putting confidence in the people that you employ and providing them with the freedom to manage their business in the way that they consider it's best and yes you need to manage a mentor but provide them with the flexibility and freedom and support and I see him do that in a way that is fantastic and he also made many mistakes by putting too much confidence in people that he shouldn't have put confidence in but adding the sum up it was still the right decision to take for him. Thanks, Satin. Well we're there at the end of the podcast and I think we learned a lot we heard a lot and it was our first dairy podcast so I think about the dairy commodity so I think that's really great to hear. There may be one question for you. One question for you. What was the nicest dairy trade that you have done? Oh yeah that's only there's only one man that pops up in my mind immediately. I was trading with a big bakery company was a Rista. I found this man in the first six months I was. I was the first six months. I was actually really poor in the trading and I was like oh no I'm not sure even if I can allow I allow me to stay here and then actually I should have been also in the logistics in the beginning but the logistical people just said probably to add in peace. Let him leave the logistical desk because this is terrible. So when they are and actually we didn't really gamble these and then I found and the European desk was not that developed as the export desk so we could go all I went to all affairs and then I found a company called Risa, a master bakery company that bought a lot of butter. So then actually I had a click with the purchase manager Sven. He left the business already for some years now but he had a click and then actually he wanted to buy butter and he only had producers and he wasn't working with the trader and for the first time he got enough for for a ride and for him was surprised for all Risa was surprised and for me was surprised to do a big business and then actually we did a deal and I think was first five new tons and then came to thousand and it became bigger and bigger and then actually that was the start of my career basically at the input and that was with him on the butter side and I was so happy when that started and then actually at the time he started pushing me to do more deals on that more deals on that and yeah that's how it started that was actually my best deal and also I think it was a bit of a start that gave me a bit of confidence that it gave me a bit of a kickoff in dairy trading because in again I only got I can remember that one of our former colleagues said well are you new on the dairy desk here you have these supplies you can call them and often then not the most fruitful supply is that I left there so it was for me really good start but that is when you got the name the nickname the king of butter the king of butter yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah before we finish I'd like to raise one more question because that is the question I personally get the most often through LinkedIn and now we have the king of cheese as our guest I would like to raise that question also to you because young people they constantly ask how do I break into the commodity industry so what is your advice to young people who want to work in the commodity industry what is what they should do I would say apply for rule right and think carefully whether you have the traits that I think I explained but also that has been highlighted through many of the podcasts before and be true to yourself I believe if you have those traits then you also have the ability to work for trading company there are endless trading companies not just in the Netherlands not just in Switzerland they everywhere around the world so if you have that ambition there is definitely a place to start and as a next suggestion be true to yourself you will see within two three years whether you are successful and being promoted and provided with more opportunities maybe than your peers and if you see this it's a career for life I guess because it's something that you are good at and that will provide you with plenty of adventure for the rest of your professional career starting commodities yeah that's what we should say yeah nice positive note thanks a lot much Edwin fantastic half year thanks for having me