Episode 12: The Winners - Saga

Speaker 1 This podcast touches upon some complex topics. The creators have endeavored to deal with the issues honestly, and with the sensitivity they deserve. They have also reached out to all key players for their comments and have sought to present a balanced and factual account. We asked that listeners consider each episode in its full context. Speaker 2 This was an attempt by a religiously motivated group who shared a strong religious fervor to enter civil space, take over an NGO, a disapprove of and impose their agenda, this risk a broader spill over into relations between different Speaker 1 religions a. Where's extraordinary general meeting that life-changing day took place on second May 2009 three months later though. The Saga was still on everyone's Minds, including prime minister, Lee hsien loong This is his National Day rally speech on 16th of August, that year Speaker 2 after it was over after the dust had settled. I spoke to the religious leaders first are Christians, and then all the religious leaders all faiths, including the Christians again, so that everybody would understood where we stood and what our concerns were. So that we can continue to work together to strengthen our racial and religious Harmony. Speaker 1 PM Lee was typically circumspect. He didn't come down to clearly on any one side. But that didn't matter the most singaporeans. This speech. Close the book on the aware Saga. It had been a thrilling few months, a rare Nacional display of feeling culminating in a dramatic win for one party and a somewhat painful loss for another Speaker 3 although which side won and which last Speaker 1 depending on who you ask back then. Might have received different answers more than a decade down, the road. It's still unclear. Speaker 2 We are in a good position. It's a Garden of Eden State. It's one where you're happy, where things are working. And where if you leave the Garden of Eden, you cannot get back in again. So please stay there. We cheered, me Speaker 3 board, and then we voted, and then the result was in our favor. It was just like it was raining. Like, Speaker 1 this is what democracy feels Speaker 2 like to cling on to one's own point of view, dogmatically and force it down the throat of another person. I think that's the root of the Speaker 3 problem. He has to worry and we have to keep our eye on the ball. What does it mean to protect us? Killer space. What does it mean to protect the Democratic space? I'm bharathi Jagdish. This is Saga episode 12. The winners. The day after winning a, we're back. I think was the first day. I felt hungry in a long time. So, finally, I remember, we had a lunch. We had a nice lunch here. The foot isn't really good Speaker 1 for a, where's old God? The aftermath of the egm. Felt a little, like, the last scene in a fairy tale. The dragon was vanquished the castle defended, the townspeople rescued. Donna, Lum was the freshly inaugurated, president of aware a title. She had first held in 2000. She looked forward to settling into the role a role that just two months before. She had never dreamed of taking up an Speaker 3 opportunity to try and set things back in order at the same time. Not exactly. Setting it back the way it was but to try and give it enough of shape for it to carry on changing and moving Speaker 1 forward part. But he's everywhere and Old Guard supporter invited 100 others to her huge house in sembawang and Kalyn thumb. The volunteer who live tweeted the egm from Starbucks, went out for a night of carousing with his Saga comrades. Some of them. He had only ever met Speaker 2 online. We got drunk to a point where, like, when the bill came, everybody pulled off the Tee Box, put it on. And the way they came back. Hey guys, you have overpaid Us by about 150 bucks. So, I don't know how you learned settled. Speaker 1 Change. They ended up just giving it all to maithili, a member of the new new aware. Exco. So Speaker 2 we call it your day donations, right? Yeah, we do. Well, here you go at that point in time. None of us could count anymore. It's like an S is that we've suffered this together with pull through what we've done what we needed to do. So that bond is is real, and I will be very sad if I were to not be able to speak to anyone from the school ever again. They're friends. I don't usually say that about a lot of Speaker 1 people. All the egm means you'd expect to pop up popped up clips of Sally on Yelling, shut up and sit down. Got creatively remixed Brands released corny ads. You bought your Subaru last year. So, so you don't qualify. Hey, you're not being inclusive. I'll call my mother, my sister, my Speaker 2 God, you piece to be aware. Find out why at the Subaru showroom. Shut up and Speaker 1 Sit down sales of t-shirts, with quotes. From the egm. Went through the roof. Shut up and sit down, feminist, Mentor, feminist, mentee, feminist Mentos like the sweet. Speaker 2 I bought one ceremonies mentee t-shirt about the aware as you hashtag one for myself in Black, the shut up and sit down. I bought two one for myself, one for my wife. Speaker 1 However, it was not all spontaneous donations and jokey t-shirts. After the egm truth be told aware was a pile of rubble and Donna's Nunu. Exco had a lot of pieces to pick up. First up, Donna, muggy, and Company found that their predecessors had left them with a Parting Gift during the new guards time in office. Someone had uploaded to a file-sharing website. All the confidential files related to the comprehensive, sexuality education. Station program that we had run and which was the hijackers main issue with us. Speaker 3 So details of the trainer's details of the teachers, Speaker 1 the names of the schools. They were at. In other words, a doxing trainers. Who had conducted a? Where's comprehensive? Sexuality, education or CSC program, found their contact information all over the Internet. They started to be harassed. So did a teacher who had coordinated the program at one of the Speaker 3 schools. We made a police report, but of course, police can't do anything about it. And, you know, the more we write to one website and it appears in another website in a, we run to another area and you appear to another and another Epi Speaker 1 site, and the Sorrows weren't over for a where CSE program. It had been under mounting scrutiny during the lead-up to the egm. Initially after Tod cried, what she read, as Insidious gay content, the Ministry of Education, put out a statement defending the They hadn't received a single complaint from any student or parent. They say, conservative parents knew when invitation when they saw one Jew. Him remembers the Avalanche of complaints that ensued. There was kind of like a trigger for the parents in are associated with Roman Christians. Is that sending the complaint in so on 21st me education Minister? And in hen released, a new statement. He was suspending, aware sexuality, education program, and now the Haitian Ministry, says that should be more stringent processes to ensure that content if like the mainstream values of Singapore Society, but the married heterosexual family unit is a social Norm. In fact, the Ministry of Education suspended all its external sex. Ed providers, henceforth. All such vendors needed to be vetted by the ministry itself. The next year, Emily announced a new roster of approved vendors, four out of the six were overtly Christian. Shouldn't say such as focus on the family. This was a real blow to those who believed that, sex education should be secular, but it didn't look like Donna, Margie Karina, and their exco could do anything about it. It Speaker 3 was, it was annoying. It made me sad and angry. At the same time, Le so much energy has gone to the research and the design of this program that uncertain. Eat. That was there. This is now sacrificed so aware. Speaker 1 CSE program fell by the wayside where it has Lain idle, for 11 Speaker 3 years. It was a, it was a loss, think it was a big loss for the whole Speaker 2 country. Speaker 1 But a big win perhaps for a certain faction of the country, they might have lost control of a way, but to hear the new guard tell it the suspension of the CSC program was what they had been fighting for all along me. Charlotte Wang told today, that Emily is doing the right thing Speaker 3 aware, keep shouting about providing choice and empowering the youth Speaker 1 in decision, making in their sexual life, Speaker 3 on the other hand comprehensive. Sexuality education. CSE, does not talk about abstinence. Speaker 1 They Speaker 3 Clear Speaker 1 from abstinence as a choice, which was not true Speaker 3 saying that, she felt a sense of calm, after hearing the news. She added that if the CSE sticks to the Emily guidelines and caters to a majority of conservative parents. We shall be. All right, Speaker 1 Julian Cope deputy director of research. At Institute of policy studies spoke with Tio Sumerian shortly after the Saga. She remembers Tio expressing satisfaction about the fate of the CSE syllabus as well. Speaker 3 She did cite how if If that not had that time in a, where they would not have been able to get the evidence of what we had been doing, especially with regard to the sexuality program. You couldn't have access to the instructors notes. If you described as open the cupboards and, you know, look through the material. Speaker 1 When muggy emailed, dr. Theo in February of 2019 to invite her on to this podcast till replied. Dear Miss Thomas. Thank you for your kind note, the aware. Data is past history. It settled, various points for posterity. She claimed that aware had in 2009, been quote in breach, of its fiduciary duty to Mo E breaching. Its contract to provide comprehensive sex education. A claim that the ministry had never made. She then reiterated that, quote, the basic building block of Singapore, Society is the heterosexual family, and that quote, the education system in Singapore should. Be in alignment with the basic building block and with that the feminist Mentor politely declined to be interviewed. The difference between a comprehensive and non comprehensive. Sex, education program is absolutely critical says do him a mother has self see as he has been repeatedly shown by a number of different research to be effective than what majority of parents probably one, which is for them to delay for sexual contact, or fewer partners and to use condoms and practice, safe sex and indulgent fewer risky Speaker 3 sexual, behaviors and is Has been shown consistently to achieve this end Speaker 1 and then conversely, if they've only received abstinence-only sex education, they tend not to use condoms and there's no Speaker 3 effect on almost anything else. Speaker 1 Abstinence only education. It has zero impact on risky Behavior. This is the bitter pill aware has swallowed for the past decade. The fact that a generation of singaporeans has lost out on potentially life-changing education. Speaker 3 We have heard from kids that are now grown out. Wow, that was when I was 14 15, you guys coming in to do that program was great. Being empowered. With the knowledge of what informed consent is. And knowing how to act in these situations where this issue comes up. They're not receiving this education. So, yeah, I feel it's a real shame. I'm angry at the situation as well. But we think that looking at how things are it is just better to to train the parents. So this is what we've decided to do in 2018, Speaker 1 Jew him and Karina worked to launch a new sex education, workshop at away this time for parents. It's called birds and bees to date. It has trained more than 150 parents. It's a workshop for parents to find out where what the values are and Speaker 3 what they actually want to communicate in a socially work Speaker 1 out what they want to tell their children, Speaker 3 whatever the age about sex about relationships about consent. So Speaker 1 hopefully parents are going to See the value in having comprehensive sex, ed and they'll be more children who are given Speaker 3 scientifically accurate, medically, accurate Speaker 1 effects, and empowered to make their own Speaker 3 decisions as if it's kind Speaker 1 of small. We have no one room Speaker 3 of parents at any one Speaker 1 time, but I believe that with the interest in the talking about it then you know, you can create Ripple effects. It Speaker 3 will take time again, but social change takes time. Speaker 1 For Singapore's LGBT community the aware egm in 2009. Felt like the first real win in a long, long time. Those eight hours, were a glimpse of a Singapore that could be a Singapore where Integrity Justice and compassion, were What mattered, not Speaker 2 bigotry then? Speaker 1 The dream ended and they woke up again to a world that still saw them as criminals. This is ching-ching volunteered as an event photographer for the Old Guard. At the egm. It was an eight-hour, adrenaline rush. I was just Speaker 3 in front of this. I'm so privileged to be able to witness this upfront. You know, I was just how I fangirling half the time. They wow. These guys are like, you know, the legit old-school activism Academy. Lucky, but no I mean ride Speaker 1 but ring almost paid a price for that privilege. A few days later. She was having dinner with her parents, her brother and his wife. The aware Saga came up in the conversation to chinks anger, her brother, and sister-in-law. Dismissed it as an affair for quote, a bunch of lesbians. Speaker 3 And the thing is that I was up to my brother then, but his wife decided to use it against me at the Tate table. They were, we were all combos in English and because my My dad and my mom, when you know like Foo and at all, in English, didn't know what we were talking about at all. So the kind of threatened to out me at a table of tell them. Tell them what, a, where does I said? Well, I mean, they're trembling for, you generally quality. What's wrong Betty? Like, oh, there's six at, you know that he did, you know, they're promoting gay sex, has it there's not promoting gay sex teaching people how to protect themselves, you know, and they're like, well, you can tell him in Chinese. Let's see what they say. Well, as religions, Speaker 2 Give Speaker 3 you horrify and from that day onwards, it really affected our relationship because they really literally, almost got me kicked out when I was not really to be up. And it wasn't, it was terrifying for Speaker 2 me. Yeah. Speaker 1 Someone else. Caught doing a painful egm hangover was Alexandra. Sorrenti. Alex, had made a stirring speech. At the egm. We're not here because, you know, Speaker 2 we because we were by Speaker 1 how this executive Speaker 2 committee came to power. Speaker 1 We are here because we are deeply, troubled, by the instigation of Civic space. As a designated seat. Warmer. Alex hadn't planned to speak at all. But like many others, she was too moved by the proceedings to hold back with her, buzz cut and a red. Bandana around her neck. Alex cut her distinctive figure that day, so much, so that she ended up on all the local news channels. Speaker 3 I remember my daughter was very proud of it at some point. When that was just after it happened, it should say. Oh, this is my mom. Speaker 1 And yet, the happiness of that day was tempered by a nagging worry. Speaker 3 Um, yeah. I had a lot of people, you know, who had very mixed feelings about my participation in the gym, and I actually had a few people who said, how's it going to look? Because, you know, what? The highwomen, Hijackers are saying about aware, right that he had been taken over by lesbians. And then there's you you look really lesbian. I mean, I don't know what a lesbian person looks like that. Okay, because, you know, my wife is very lesbian. She looks nothing like me, but you, do you confirm you take every checkbox? Right? Of how lesbians are supposed to look like and behave and I confess I gave their objections. Serious thought. Speaker 1 Alex was in a cruel Catch-22 throughout the Speaker 3 Saga. So if I'm for Grounded too much, then we confirmed the narrative that aware has been taken over by letting people, a homosexual, agenda. Whatever that is. I'm delighted to show you my phone and show you how mundane my agenda is. Okay, but if we don't stand up for away, the enemy wins because they have effectively removed a Source Speaker 1 of support. Speaker 3 That is important for a West continuation to support or not to support. Either way. We lose, do we give in to that fear or do? I trust that? There will be singaporeans who will be able to hear the message, despite the messenger. And I didn't know what the answer to that would be Speaker 1 at the egm. Alex had decided not to give in to the fear. To trust in singaporeans and to speak up for her rights. It had been glorious. Now, that the moment was over, though. The doubt was creeping in again, was her continued involvement with aware a liability for the organization. Speaker 3 I'll make the confession and I'll wear the flag for this. I actually told some members of the Old Guard that for a short period after the egm that they needed to distance themselves from me and from my community as a strategic move. Advise them that and that was me as a gay person. I felt that that narrative needed to go away in the public imagination first. I didn't agree with it, but I advised it, Speaker 1 it broke Alex's, heart to say Speaker 3 this. I wish that we didn't live in that world, but Yeah. Speaker 1 Indeed. Everyone was grappling with this same question. Here's Drew him. People are saying, do we need to dial back? Our public support of LGBT? What do we do? Do? We want to Speaker 3 allow the public discourse to focus exclusively on LGBT in. Also, there's a lot of discussion and Speaker 1 to what extent? A certain values non-negotiable. And if we try to negotiate on that we Speaker 3 become less, Speaker 1 you know, we are betrayed ourselves. Beyond ching and Alex others in Singapore's, lesbian Community, had their own dissatisfaction after all, many of them had rallied behind a, we're in a time of need at their own personal risk. So, understandably members of the gay community came to our support felt that we should pay back and somewhere. There was some feedback that some members of the gay community felt that we owed it to them to Champion their cause more. It was the Age-old aware predicament. Once again, too. Radical too safe, too. Hot to cold, never just right. Finally away. Lesbian groups, Ione and a few other organizations held a sort of tribal council. The conclusion was that aware would continue to lend support to those groups, but fairly discreetly in US is that if there is something specific, they needed a where's help on, we would, we would do it, but Speaker 3 otherwise, We were not in a position to Forefront the lesbian cause at that point Speaker 1 yet to this day, just Speaker 3 like maybe we took the expedient route after such a huge battle. Everybody was just battle, very aware. Like we I don't think we had the stomach to fight this battle and and I think for me personally and I think maybe other people we can't just make the excuse that it Speaker 2 The temporary, Speaker 1 it was quite a different climate and the fear. Felt real. See, you Speaker 3 know, we really did not want to be seen as a mainly LGBT group because there's so much other work that we had that we wanted to do. Speaker 1 It would take aware a long while to shake off the trauma of The Saga. Speaker 3 If you ask me, what are the three top things that are? Where's working on today? This is not one of them, right? And that's how it is. But if you say, will you take a stand for any? LGBT issue. Yes. We are. Right there. We will make a press statement. We will speak on it. I think that we have actually been a lot Bolder in our public statements on this Speaker 1 and this existential wrestling. Another social movement was Finding its feet that may pink dot Singapore's, first gay pride event. Speaker 2 Hoping that started is a Located story. I would say the Catalyst was when the police relax, the rules for hung them. Pop. Speaker 1 Remember Alan Sia. We spoke to him in episode 4 about his public petition. In 2007 to repeal section 377. A the law that criminalizes gay. Sex. Alan is a co-founder of pink dot the venue. He's talking about Hong Lim park has been the traditional site over the years of many political rallies and other rabble-rousing events. In 2008, the rules for the Parks famous Speakers Speaker 3 Corner were Speaker 2 updated. So it used to be. You had to register and tell them what you were going to speak about before you allow to speak in Speakers Corner. And what they did was relaxed the rules where you didn't have to tell them what you were going to speak about, and the police had actually had a held a press conference and they said, and to announce this. And they say, Said and you can even now have a gay pride parade Speaker 1 gay activists to new and invitation. When they saw one one activist. Dr. Roy tan, immediately decided he would organize a gay pride event at Hong Lim Speaker 2 Park. So other activists and coalesce sort of around Roy and out of all the conversations and discussions. Pink dot was Speaker 1 born Allen and Company were very careful not to Brand pink dots as a protest. March instead, it would be a celebratory family-friendly picnic. Speaker 2 That's come together. Form a human pink dot in the middle of Holland Park. And that the growth of that dot every year was symbolize societies. Growing acceptance of the lgbtq Speaker 1 community still as controversial as gay rights were in Singapore. Would anyone show up at all? The very first pink dot was scheduled for Saturday 6th. 18th, May 2009, coincidentally, a mere two weeks after the away, egm Speaker 2 what Louis away was, you know about 2,500 people showed up and progressively every year after that. I think we broke her own record. In terms of the number of people that showed Speaker 1 up Alan thinks that all this energy was a direct runoff from the aware egm Speaker 2 success. The fact that it had a happy outcome. I think it was sort of a launch pad their went straight to Two weeks later. I think, definitely, first been got benefited. Hugely from that Speaker 1 energy. One of the people at that first pink dot was Ching. Whose participation at aware? Zgm almost got her out at to her Speaker 3 parents. I think for a lot of us when we went to the very first thing, got a hole in part. We were like, oh my God, are we going to get arrested? You know, we were all like fearful it kind of reminded me of that day being at, you know, some time as well being at the GM. And I I just hope my God, things are changing, anything Speaker 1 about Ching. Showed up again for Pink Dot to in 2010. Then Pink Dot 3, Speaker 3 then the 30 I can individual response of a pink dot subsequently. Then I join as the organizing committee and kind of never looked Speaker 1 back since then. Now, she's one of the key organizers of pink dot which has celebrated 12 editions at Peak attendance pink, dot has seen 28,000, people filling up. Lim Park, Speaker 3 if you tell me that 10 years later, they'll be this amount of people in the pop. I would literally laugh in your face. If you told me that's going Speaker 1 to happen since 2009, King has come out to her parents, her mom, subsequently became an aware donor. Speaker 3 I'm glad that you GM happened. I think that you GM didn't happen. I probably will still be clubbing every weekend. That's you like, you know, it's kind of like I found meaning in activism and the Oguri GM, honestly gave me. You know, that Catalyst, that that I needed to go into it. I'm very grateful for Pioneers, like Constance Margaret and to him and Karina and all they are a true inspiration, you know, and they are name is going to go down in history as like, you know, truly amazing women that a lot of us will look up to thank you Josie law and the Pussycat Dolls. Speaker 1 As for Alex sorrenti, she to finally overcome. Her doubts after almost not attending pink dot Speaker 3 herself. Again. I was dragging away. Possibly into pink dot. Right is the Optics other thing, but, you know, one of my friends, put me up and she said, well, I'm what are you thinking? Right? She said, you know, I don't care what the Optics are. This is not something that you can afford to not go to, because, like, I had been helping younger lesbians with their struggles, if you Don't turn up, what sort of signal, what sort of message. Would you be sending to these younger Speaker 1 people? Screw it thought to Alex aware. Will Survive? Those? Young people might not. So she went to Pink Dot stood up and was counted Alex, her wife and their daughter have made a conscious decision to talk openly about their family Speaker 3 to actually challenge. The one narrative that I think is deeply problematic, which is that we are against Family Values. I have been married. Now for 18 years. We have been monogamous all our lives. So when we hear this narrative, lesbians gay people, people files multiple hookups, they sleep around every day. I'm like, who you Speaker 2 talking about? Speaker 3 We've had a marriage that has lasted longer than some of our heterosexual friends, but there's still a long way to go and the fact that we have still not decriminalized. Speaker 2 Winds up in a is Speaker 3 a stain on our national Speaker 2 conscience. Speaker 3 Then of that, that whole episode in a way has changed Speaker 2 me. Speaker 3 There are emotional even just even just talking about it. Now. That was something that really moved me during the heroes and on, I was very proud of is important. And I think when people say that singaporeans are not ready. For 377 a not ready for all sorts of things. I think back on that day. My no, actually, we're ready. Speaker 2 We are Speaker 3 ready. You know, it's just that we've not been given an opportunity to show how to live up to our Readiness. And that's that's the tragedy of Singapore and the hope so yes. Speaker 2 Yeah the whole. Speaker 3 Yes, I probably need to clean my dears. Speaker 1 We invited the key members of the new God, to be interviewed for this podcast, but most did not get back to us. In fact, the new God have almost never spoken publicly on the events of 2009. So as much as we'd like to do a, where are they now segment here? Our information is piecemeal at best. We do know that Josie Lao left her job at DBS shortly after the Sangha. No surprises there. Given the public criticisms, the bank made about her condo. Later in 2009. She joined overseas Union Enterprise or oue the real estate company run at the time. Bye Tio Sumerians. Husband. One of the few people. Dr. Theo and Josie did interview with was Gillian Co of The Institute of policy studies. The interviews were for Jillian's chapter in Terrence Chung's. 2011 book on the aware Saga. We asked Jillian for whatever insights, she could provide into the woman's thoughts and feelings about the Olga she remembers doctor till in the interview, being not regretful but Speaker 3 reflective if she had to do it again, how would she do things differently? She wish she brought together more diverse group of friends to suggest, that it's not just a very small tiny group that's necessarily informed, by one religious, kind of approach. One religious organization or community. So, if you want to do that, then you definitely have to have more dialogue in more discourse and then a setting out of concerns. Why were they so unclear Speaker 2 about the true motivations at the beginning, Speaker 3 the day - insane were clear in them motivations. They weren't much better, but not spelt out in a form that you publish in a pamphlet. We can't sort of Is really important on them and expectation that they're so. Well studied so well informed. So clever about being, you know, before mobilizers and, and, you know, there's a kind of proper way in which, to do such things. Yeah. Just Union herself said that she'd been very, very conscious about how gay activism has been taking place and in the west that was very clear. She'd been thinking about the general area General issue of gay rights campaigns for a very very very long time Speaker 1 over the past decade. Dr. Theo has continued to write letters to the Press anytime gay rights come up in the news in 2018 in an open letter to the education Minister. She wrote quote those who Advocate the decriminalization of section 377 a they're also advocating pedophilia incest necrophilia and bestiality. We should be aware of the Insidious ways in which the proponents of this agenda. I seek to infiltrate our system. Emily had been infiltrated once in its sex education. Unquote. She's referring to a where's SI SE program? In case you thought? She might have mellowed in her 80s, maybe change is a task for a new generation. In July 2019 and oblique but friendly ish. Overture came our way via a Facebook post by Stephanie UNT. Oh, Steph is a prominent lawyer nto Sumerians daughter-in-law in her post. Steph reflected on how the aware Saga had. Unfortunately, further polarized, Singaporean Society, but she also wrote that the Saga ahead, an important upside. It caused gay friends to come out and to share their struggles with her Steph ended her. Was to with an anecdote, I quote when my son was 15. He asked me how I would respond if he came home one day and told me he was gay as a Christian. I had always wondered how I would feel about that. But in that moment as a mother I had no hesitation. I told him that I would always love him and that he and his partner would always be welcome in my home and in my heart unquote that sentiment from a member of the teal Clan is significant. Something else. In 2018. The actress Pam we are vocal aware supporter. Had an unexpected. Post-show encounter with the daughter of a new guard member Speaker 3 recently. I won't say which Committee Member but one of the new committee members that take over her daughter, came up to me after a show that I had performed that and when she revealed, who she was, I was like, oh, okay. I'm not sure. This is going, but very cheerfully, she apologized for what her mother did. Speaker 1 And I felt that that Speaker 3 was very powerful. But there was no need for her to apologize for what her parents Speaker 1 did for Pam. This was eye-opening Speaker 3 for the first time. 10 years later. I actually had to think about what their children felt about their actions and it gave me a little window into, okay. So just because a parent things like that. It doesn't necessarily follow that the children seemed like things like that. And this is a young adult. So I think mindsets are slowly Speaker 2 changing. I love, what's happening with 0s. Are go over here at. She was ahead of its time, Speaker 1 Tommy the social entrepreneur, and Christian. We spoke to, in episode 5 has seen major changes in religious discourse over the past, Speaker 2 decade, Singapore, in 2009. She's a very different thing apart from what it is right now, right? The societal conversation around power or power dynamics, or actually, who gets to speak, who doesn't get to speak over here. I think many Christians today if it happened today. Okay, would be up in arms about this. And she will say, this is actually very unfair or even an ethical practice in the short game. You win some. I don't know, token Champion over LGBT rights issues or things like that. Find a long game where you're meant to be people within society that demonstrate trust or that great trust among each other. I think you've lost them Speaker 1 and it's that long game. That religious communities are now struggling Speaker 2 with the congregation by sheer virtue of how much exposure they have two different viewpoints. Are becoming more Progressive. So the church itself now has identity versus relevance question. Do we stick to the core identity of who we are, or do we play the game to start staying relevant? When I'm even speaking to Christian leaders today? I think most of them are in dilemmas over their own systems their own Survival, a lot of them over here their private movements. They always ask why is God not more clear with the guidebook. I don't know. I think, with all this complexity, we are as looking for miracles as anybody else. Yeah. Speaker 1 If appealing to Progressive, young congregants is Christianity's new challenge. How have some Churches tried to address it? Speaker 3 I initially didn't feel like the church was a safe place because homosexuality wasn't talked about, and when it was mentioned it was talked about in the very I thought, unhelpful way. It was always the Speaker 1 issue but not the Speaker 3 person. Speaker 1 A rainbow icon. Pretty hand. Written script in rainbow colors. Pretty people surrounded by rainbows. If you were to skim through its various online facades, you might mistake. True love is for another lgbtq affirming Pride, aligned social movement, even the slogans that appear in its videos, employed, terms associated with progressives quote. True. Love does not ignore the truth and do The facts. Shame dies when stories are told in safe spaces. Don't just come out, come home. Only if you actually pay attention to what's being said in the videos, or notice the churches named in the credits, only then might you catch on to the real nature of true love is my team and I Journey with Christian struggling Speaker 2 with I want the same sex attraction. We shower them with of acceptance to your sad truth. This whole journey with your families and Church community. Speaker 1 True love is is a movement of people who believe their homosexuality. Needs to be overcome or neutralized or suppress before they can live a good holy life. It's a service run by 3/16 Church in affiliation with church of our Saviour. True love is encourages people who are quote, Living the gay lifestyle, to give that up and find peace in God. This is achieved by either abstaining from sex entirely or in some cases, having heterosexual sex only to argue that That same-sex attraction can be overcome. True love is has produced. Testimonials with a bunch of spokespeople complete with inspirational music and tasteful. Cinematography. Each person talks about the horrors, they encountered before they renounced homosexuality. Usually this involves some combination of abuse, heartbreak, STIs or meaningless sex Speaker 2 are going to many relationships. Hundreds of intimate encounters. It's very common. In the case. I'll go. At 17. Speaker 1 Now, found out that my boyfriend was cheating on me. The slickly produced videos, show, bright sincere, people, associating all manner of human foibles, loneliness infidelity violence lust depression disease, with being gay. Never mind, that straight people are as vulnerable to those things, as gay people, the same lines Echo across the Speaker 2 videos. I mean, I'll be free from my desires. But I no longer will still struggle with homosexuality, but I no longer desire that acts upon it. Speaker 1 Ever since true love is was launched in early 2018, observers like Alex, sorrenti have seen it. As the next evolution of conservative Speaker 3 messaging, the sound affirming of LGBT and differently gender people. But at the end of the day, they are welcome is a poisoned Apple, love the person, not the behavior. So at the end of the day, it's all about changing yourself still. And what worries me is that They have come back in a much more Insidious form and that scares me. Speaker 2 God. I Set Me Free from guilt and self-condemnation. And I wish that forever Speaker 1 gone. Either Anonymous chain emails references to a task force, blithely posted online, The Conspiracy Theory, Laden PowerPoint, presentations, that are all these pretty rainbow colored memes. Just another Trojan Horse. I mean, you have to give them. Props, rubbin Graham, the old gods, Twitter Maestro, Speaker 3 they've learned and they're very strong. Now, their media campaigns are really quite slick now, so they know that in this day and age you can't come across as like an old-school. Homophobe. Right? We love you. We're not anti-gay. We just want to cut the gay out of you. Like we're sorry. If you hate yourself, we don't have anything to do with you hitting yourself, you know, if Hate yourself because you're gay. We can help you with Speaker 1 that. A quote comes to mind from an interview doctor till gave to the newspaper Yen Hotel pow shortly after the egm in the interview as per usual. Kill denies that she premeditated the aware take over. Then she says something Speaker 2 interesting. Speaker 1 If she were to really attempted takeover of a secular organization. She would not be so obvious as to employ Agents from the same church. I would be a real strategist. She says, I would organize a Rainbow Coalition like them. True love is has sparked a lot of online outrage, critics. Call it. Conversion therapy. IE. The institutionalized attempt to change, a person's, sexual orientation, from gay, or bi to straight. True love is has strenuously denied. It is conversion therapy, which is outlawed in many places around the world. It insists that it's participants have the right to choose how to live their personal lives. No matter that. Those choices are Fluids to buy church doctrine. It emphasizes that many gay Christians have found. True love is to be a supportive and welcoming space. It says that those who criticize our themselves being intolerant and exclusionary, the same, argument used to defend the new guards views in Speaker 2 2009. I am confused Speaker 1 because those who want to Speaker 2 exclude, our stories Speaker 3 are often, the very ones who also advocate for love and inclusiveness. If you Say, my story is harming, you. What about you trying to silence? My life journey. Is it that humming me, Speaker 2 please stop. Assuming please. Stop speaking over my story. Speaker 3 Give me credit that I have come to my own convictions and decisions for Speaker 2 myself. Speaker 1 What happened. You make of true love is it doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. Many of our interviewees, talk about a certain Evangelical conviction growing quietly in Singapore, flexing, its influence poking, its head around secularism sabacc door, you might Glimpse it in the strength of the wear white movement of the far-right Muslims and Christians Who band together every year to protest, pink dot or in the National Library. Board's decision to pull three children's books from shelves after complaints that they were pro-gay. There have been no more surprise press conferences at the Raffles Town Club, but it would be naive to take that as a sign of retirement. More accurately, perhaps an ability to learn from mistakes to as chew the spotlight to get the job done. Speaker 2 Draw the world as a tendency for all religion to become more radical and fundamentally. This is true Christianity, but it is true and Hindu ISM as we see in India, it's true in Islam. Of course. We see that all over the world Buddhism. Speaker 1 One morning in July 2019. Monkey. Thomas went to meet Professor Tom Eco Professor. KO is Singapore's preeminent Diplomat and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Ambassador-at-large. He was Singapore's permanent representative to the United Nations for many years. He's also a decorated lawyer. In fact, he succeeded to yeosu me in as dean of nus law back in the He's Speaker 2 look at America. The Republican party has successfully weaponized, Christianity against the devil. The real danger is unscrupulous politician will use religion as a weapon against the opponent and it's surprising, there's many highly educated and sophisticated Christians in Singapore have embrace the point of view. They eventually go Speaker 1 and should the Those are moderates, whether you're religious or or not. Should we be concerned Speaker 3 about what appears to be a growing extremist Speaker 2 movement. You may be a concern but there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah. Speaker 1 Currently in the Singapore, establishment. Co is the most outspoken critic of section 377. A, in fact, after India, repealed their section 377 in June 2018, Cole wrote a Facebook, post suggesting that singaporeans. Try again, the post prompted a whole new set of competing petitions in an echo of 2007. Speaker 2 It's actually a legacy of the British colonial era, you know, she's crazy the The country long ago before this death, but in many of the ex-colonies people who invested in this long, you know, and they're very reluctant to do away with it. When you saw obviously and Designs irrational and no rational basis, Speaker 1 if you don't get what a big deal, it is to hear a government officials say that on record, you don't know, Singapore. Speaker 2 I was hoping that our Judiciary like the Judiciary in the, in India, the United. State Hong Kong and elsewhere would declare the law unconstitutional, but I think that's not very likely to happen. They make a convenient compromise and say we will keep the law in the books, but we will not enforce her lawyers, like me and are not comfortable because we feel that it brings discredit to the law where you have a law in the book, which you publicly declare that you are not in France. Speaker 1 Though he recognizes how powerful the Christian right? Has become in Singapore Society. Professor Cole believes that the tide will turn one day. I think Speaker 2 history will move on and they will be left behind you even in Singapore. When I talk to the young people, my college and university is clear to me that it's a matter of time before a majority. Singaporean, but say, let's do away with this. I'll kick long one generation to generation soon. other than that, Speaker 1 Unfortunately, 2019, ten years and two days after the extraordinary general meeting that sealed, its fate aware through an anniversary party, a few Saga Superstars including constant, Singham spoke to the hundred or so people crowded in the aware Center for Connie. The whole Affair was bittersweet. She's not fully over what happened in 2009. She might never be Speaker 3 for two days. I was my stomach was churning and I had to take ntsc. Before I came even, when Margot told me that they were doing this. I said, monkey, you're going to remind me. I am going to go through the trauma all over Speaker 1 again. The perhaps trauma can be productive if lessons are learned right after the Saga aware made some much needed updates to its Constitution across the country. Other organizations of all Stripes, quickly did the same from, then on new aware members would have to To sign a declaration that goes something like this OS values. We Embrace Speaker 3 diversity. We promote understanding and acceptance of Speaker 1 diversity, respect the individual, and the choices. She makes in life and supporter when needed. We recognize the human rights of all, regardless of gender so that everyone can realize their aspirations. That's it. What do you think of it? Yeah, it's fine. I can Speaker 3 join. It's like a security. You know, stop and declare yourself. We do have in our membership Rules by laws and so on that, we can kick members out if we found that their behavior does not live up to these values. So we do have that as a Speaker 1 fallback today. Aware membership sits at around 600 a sheer drop from the peak of 3,000. During The Saga. Of course, associate members were finally given the vote in 2016. Those subject to a cap of 25% of total votes. Although to be nominated onto a where's board. You need to have been an active member for at least two years. That's right. It's a board. Now not an executive committee that because after the Saga aware decided to professionalize, instead of a president running away. There would be a full-time executive director in 2010. That person was selected. It was drumroll, please Karina Speaker 3 Lim had startup experience. I could run a team. I felt like this was my calling. This was the right time emotionally psychologically. It felt right Speaker 1 turning aware into a Professional Organization was not without controversy either. Some longtime volunteer members worried that paying people to do the work of feminism would destroy, its Integrity. Speaker 3 Even today. We have members. We have all the members who question the, the wisdom of having people paid to be spokesperson, for example, for issues. Rather than dr. Passionate Speaker 1 president. Donna Lum, doesn't agree after all aware is still a non-profit. The staff aren't paid Speaker 3 much. I think that, that is a little bit short-sighted. This person applied for this job because this issue is important to her and your organization is a place where she can use her skills and earn a living for that. Instead of relying on the volunteer, close attention span is very limited for you, which is what we were struggling with. There is a risk that When organizations become more professional, that they also become more Speaker 1 conservative sociologists tou Yen, the aware member who cheered the old guard on at the egm. Served on the board from 2010 to 2016. She witnessed the rocky road to professional ization under three different presidents, including Winifred low, and HR expert who tenaciously Steward it aware in to version 2.0. You Yen, remembers the arguments? It's Speaker 3 in my first bought that was like table slamming and stuff. I would say it was quite painful, but would you achieve anything? Oh, of course, so I think that's always the big question. Speaker 1 As you Yen explains. Professionalizing aware was always going to involve some trade-offs. So there might be some self-censorship. Speaker 3 There probably is. I think all of us self-censor, I think that that's important to acknowledge and we should Pretend we don't self-censor. Because once you pretend, I think that is, when the censorship becomes even more Insidious. I think the important thing for we're going forward to my mind is to maintain that tension. Meaning is very important for the board, and for volunteers, and for staff to continue to be made up of people who disagree with one another and is very, very important to keep safe guarding that space. Case to argue and quarrel, I mean, I cannot emphasize how much I've gained from learning. How the quarrel in a way. It must continue to be uncomfortable all the time. I think of this discomfort as a necessary thing. Speaker 1 Today in 2020 aware has a staff of around 30 which has vastly different capabilities than the volunteer-run shop of your. Speaker 3 I often say this phrase Collective action. People can come here and do the work and really contribute to a larger set of goals and people can become more than we can become more than the sum of our parts. That's the thing. This organization is no longer. About one or two personalities. You know, when you think about aware today, you don't think about who the president is necessarily any more contrast this to what aware was before, which was always attached to who was president, when we come here, what we create together. We cannot do without each other. I, I am immensely proud with the way is Speaker 1 usually aware today is still run by executive director Karina, Lim who is ringing in 11 years. Speaker 3 In that role of all the things that we have done, I think one of the major ones that I am feel very proud of the team having achieved is really sexual assault, care and advocacy and also the research in this area. We started this in 2011, the sexual assault Defender service which morphed into the sexual assault care center. And so, 10 years later. We have the most expertise in this area and it is so badly needed, right? As a Example when hashtag me to happen in the world, the number of people came to see us increased by 79% the research and advocacy. We didn't have any Department in the past. We now have five people in this area but focusing on Aging of Singapore, which is going to place and disproportionate burden on women in Singapore. As we have to provide the elder care, more than men and inequality is the other major. Issue in 2015. We won a charity transparency and governance awards. Given by the government. This was actually a real boost and a recognition of how tightly run. Yeah. We are big sister too many of the smaller women's organizations and organizations focused on gender Speaker 2 issues. Speaker 1 If you ask and well, Jets, oin aware founding member Singapore's first female nominated Member of Parliament and a Resolute, active Asia as she nears, 80 how consequential, the aware Saga? Was. She shrugs? If there had been no egm, or Speaker 3 we would have definitely started another away. And it is in a bit like, Singapore, who wants to take over, Singapore, right? We have no resources, natural resources and oil. If you take over Singapore, you have to win. Hot sand mind. So a way it's the same thing. Okay, take our premises change. Our constitution will just going from another away somewhere else. Again Speaker 1 more than a decade. Later. The sagas impact on Singapore is unequivocal to some like you Yen. Speaker 3 There were many things that were still less people than they are. Now things have Speaker 1 changed and obscure to others who see little progress and some regress in areas such as LGBT rights. Or freedom of expression, too many aware members and allies. The memory of The Saga, is both an occasion for pride and an injunction to work harder and be Speaker 3 braver as activists. You cannot think of social change as happening linearly and in One Direction, you have to think, in terms of the long game and a long Arc. There's a wonderful book by Rebecca solnit called hope in the dark. She reminds me when I'm in the dark to think about all the things. That have changed, for example, about what can and cannot be said about women. In society. We are here on Earth for a very short time. And all we can do is contribute to the wave if you are doing it, because you are expecting to be a hero, you're not going to last very long. It gives me hope that Civil Society will continue to thrive in Singapore. Although I wished that it was much more active. Although I wish we had much more space than its given to us. Us, there's so many ideas, so much enthusiasm. So much of passion that has been curtailed because of the fear my business and by government owed, that Civil Society will upset the apple cart of the durian cut or whatever cut you want. So, I think that is their loss, but we in Civil Society, continue to work under whatever constraints we have. And we, we have to energize. Our Speaker 2 self-awareness is really only the beginning of the game and that The difficulty really comes in the long tail when we start to look at it. How do we handle all this complexity? And where does it go? When what we do as a society, we have as good a chance as any other nation in the world to address. This affects this. We have an excellent foundation in south of DC playing a game. But sometimes this conversation, it cannot be, just stay declaring it. It has to be a conversation that citizens are. And what we're seeing is self with this increasingly work, generations of people write is that people are more willing to step up to the plate, right? To have these conversations and I'm grateful to say over here that I think Civil Society organizations are concerned with both levels of work of advocacy work, but also the capacity building work necessary to can carry these difficult conversations. All the way through, Speaker 3 we were Sago blood people to think more deeply about what really mattered to them. It sparked heated debate on soul-searching about issues like the role of religion, secularism, sexuality, and Justice and equality. These are conversations that continue today and this can only be good for Singapore. The aware Saga is a powerful reminder to keep standing up and speaking Speaker 1 out for what you believe in, because civil liberties are not set. In stone progress, doesn't just occur on its own. Everything you believe in can be overturned in the course of one life-changing day. And when that happens, Speaker 3 where will you be? Speaker 1 For this podcast. We reached out to cure soon Yen, and the members of the new guard, they either declined or did not respond to our interview requests. Saga is hosted by me bharathi Jagdish. It was written and produced by Jasmine Young and Kelly. Liao audio post production by mocha chai Laboratories with sound design by cheongsan. Yin, and Amelia sigh nor Ina Safari was our associate producer and Bali called Jesus. Was our story consultant original score by wage and in of the band, dot, GIF, and additional music from the free music archive under the Creative, Commons attribution-noncommercial license artwork by John Albrecht Gwen, limb was our marketing strategist. We received editorial. Assistants from Caspian Paris, Casas, Narayan, limb tochan, Meghan, tan and a tireless group of interns. We're also grateful to splice Studios and neon sound. Visit a where dot org dot SG, / Saga for bonus. Speaker 3 Clips. Speaker 1 Links to archival material and interactive timeline Speaker 2 character map and more.