Episode 113: Faces of the Industry 2025, Part 1

[Music] Welcome to the Flux capacitor, a podcast about the future of electricity. A little something different on the pod today. This National Electricity Month, electricity Canada is introducing you to the people who are the faces of the industry. Electricity Canada's Faces of the Industry Award highlights the work of six industry professionals who have demonstrated leadership in every aspect of the electricity sector. We created the faces of the industry awards last year and it came out of a simple but powerful premise. The electricity sector aren't just companies, they're people. The great thing about faces is it's a real grassroots campaign. We have 47 nominations for the award representing people from all parts of the electricity sector from every region. All we ask is for the recipient to demonstrate innovation, leadership and outstanding achievement in the field. This year's award winners have been selected from every region of Canada and come from every part of the industry including executive leadership, finance, engineering, line work and procurement. What they have in common is leadership and innovation and of course they're working the electricity sector. I had the privilege of talking to all of this years faces of the industry recipients for the Flux capacitor and it was humbling to realize the breadth of experience and talent the electricity sector possesses. I hope that you will experience this yourself as you listen to my conversations with this year's Faces of the Industry. On the pod today are three of those Faces of the Industry. First up on the podcast is Sandra Haskin, Senior Vice President of Finance and CFO of Capital Power. Welcome to the podcast and congratulations on being one of the 2025 Faces of the Industry Sandra. Well thank you very much. It's certainly an honor. I thought for the listener it might be interesting to start off with a little bit about Capital Power and YCFO would be somebody who would be honored by their peers in the industry. Before we talk about three billion dollar questions, maybe start off with just a little bit of a thumbnail sketch for folks about what Capital Power is all about from your perspective. Yeah certainly. Capital Power has been around for 15 years when we IPOed from EPCOR which was the utility. We were an Alberta based company that was in a deregulated market and one of our key financial pillars was to remain investment grade. So we're currently triple B minus with S&P and DBRS. So for us that meant Capital Power needed to diversify outside of a single market. I've needed to have more contracted cash flows and we needed to be a growth oriented company. So in 2014 we decided to reset our strategy to continue down two parallel paths and one was to build out renewables which were very much in favor at the time. So that was see the beginning of energy transition. And the other was to acquire midlife natural gas. So it allowed us to get two different streams of generation that were contracted that would increase the stability of our cash flows. But from Capital Power's background is a as a generator and an operator and having the market expertise that we had. There was a real need from our perspective to have reliable, despatchable energy to support the grid. And so we saw that there was a number of assets in certain markets that were going to be needed for longer and felt that we could acquire them and make them more efficient to support those markets. So that's been sort of our mandate and our strategy as we go forward. So as I said that was the time of energy transition. What we're seeing now is demand curves are certainly much more robust than they were back then. We sort of thought energy efficiency would flatten the curve. And that is not the case. We're now seeing demand grow very, very rapidly. And so for Capital Power that has provided the opportunity for us to continue to grow and expand. So over the last number of years we've built a number of wind farms. We've done solar. We've added battery storage during the process of adding battery storage at a couple of our Ontario sites. Expand an upgrade generation to meet the growing demands and ensure that there's reliability and affordability in the market. So as CFO what that meant is there's a fair bit of capital that needed to be raised in order to do that. So I've been very active in the equity markets and the debt markets to finance this as we've had a pretty stable cadence of growth in acquisitions and development. For a number of years we were sanctioning about two renewable projects a year as well as acquiring mid-life natural gas. Probably our biggest undertaking was in Alberta where our Genesee, Genering Facility, was mandated to be off-cold by 2030 by the Alberta government in 2015. So most of the base load in the province was on coal. So we undertook the analysis to see whether we would do a conversion to natural gas, which is basically not a capital intensive solution, but it also does not decarbonize the unit. So you still are fairly inefficient. I would have cost us about $75 million to convert all three units. We decided just to convert one, the other we decided to repower. And so that involved all the difference between converting and repowering. So I think if you looked at converting it would be almost like taking the barbecue at home, changing it from being propane to natural gas. So pretty easy switch out of some equipment to change the fuel type and deal with the different heat intensity. But it's still the same barbecue, it's still the same burner. Exactly. So repowering is new equipment if you will. So it does have a new highly efficient unit. So it's also a brownfield project. So you do use a lot of the existing infrastructure, which brings the cost down materially. But we're still looking at one and a half billion dollars was the all-in project cost to take 840 megawatts and convert it to 1,250 megawatts. So not only did we achieve being off coal five years in advance, we also reduced 3.4 megatons annually of CO2 emissions from the project. So that's a 40% reduction in emissions, but a 60% increase in overall generations. So you increase the capacity, lowered the emissions and provided long-term reliable energy for for Albertans. So I guess the question for CFO is, what did you find 1.5 billion dollars? Well, we generate a fair bit of cash flow. So our cash flow goes towards paying dividends. So roughly about 30% currently is our pay-all ratio. The rest we use to fund our growth. So obviously that still brings us a little bit short. But we've been successful in issuing equity as well as as the debt capital markets. So as I mentioned earlier, we've always looked to maintain our investment grade credit rating, which means that you do have to raise equity in order to to maintain your credit metrics. So you know, we spend a fair bit of time over our entire history of getting out reaching out to investors. So our investor relations efforts are constantly ongoing and getting our name out, explaining who we are, this company out of Alberta that has this strategy and letting them know our story, our strategy and our how we implement so that when we do go to market, we are successful and able and be able to raise the funds that we need. So I think that our strategy really resonates with with investors. Energy is essential to the communities we live and work in and you know our long-term goals. And I think what's been important is everything we said we were going to do we've done. So we've been very clear on our pathway, in our direction, and we've delivered on that. So when we needed the money, it was there. And you know, as far as Genesee, it's probably the largest decarbonization story around that didn't use out of market incentives to do it. So we just completed our first full quarter of operations of the repower units. And our intensity of our emissions was below the benchmark at which you have to pay carbon tax. So tells you the the efficiency of those units and of course it is very reliable. Alberta being quite unique and that we're not blessed with some of the other resources that you see in other markets. We don't have large hydro as far as wind and solar when you're looking at February when temperatures can be sustained very very cold. All of the wind on the on the grid drops to zero. So we have zero generation from renewables. We're getting eight or nine hours of sunlight. So there's not a lot from solar. We need to have reliable dispatchable generation. So something that we get from our repowered units. So it's reliable and it's there when our consumers need it. Now we don't sort of stop there. As I said, I think the whole all of us would have thought a number of years ago that we wouldn't need the demand for power that we're seeing now. Certainly, as things are becoming electrified, you have AI and data centers. As you will know that our driving demand, but the next sort of step is decarbonization. And where will the grid go a number of years out? So from our perspective, we spent a lot of time looking at carbon capture and storage. Feel that it is there from a technology perspective, but not yet economic. Likewise, SMRs is another opportunity that we're partnering with OPG on to explore bringing SMRs utility scale to Alberta. So if you want to have SMRs in the province in 2035, 2040, that work has to start today. It's a very - And you began that work. - We started that a year ago. So we're looking at that. And I think that, you know, we sort of see that every market will have multiple answers to generation. It's not one technology that will carry the day, but there's a lot happening in terms of innovation and exploration of projects. And we so we continue to monitor those and and feel that we'll be able to make that that pivot when the time comes to what that next generation of supply will come from. - So when you enter into the agreement with with OPG to look at SMRs, was that the last technology that the capital power had not yet been involved in? Because the company now covers pretty much every type of generation, right? - Pretty much. We don't do offshore wind and we don't do hydro. So in our history, we have had a few run of river, but like nuclear, it is sort of unique in terms of the expertise that you need and was not something that we felt was necessarily an niche we would pursue. But we are quite diversified by fuel type. And as I said, every market is unique in terms of the market construct as well as what resources they happen to be blessed with or not. So for us, that has meant venturing into a number of different technology types. - Well and diversity also with respect to the markets that you're in, right? - How many markets, how many different jurisdictions is Albert? Sorry, capital power in these days? - Yes. So that's a good question. We're in Ontario, BC and Alberta in Canada. And we're in 11 different states in the US. So actually, there'll be more now. We just did an acquisition last week. So I think we're now in 13 different states. So different markets. So PGM being the market we just entered were in the desert Southwest. We also have the Southeast and as well as Pacific Northwest, which is also part of the Weck market. So, you know, so a number of different markets. But we see that there are very strong fundamentals in in a lot of the different markets. So we look to be diversified across those markets. And the flight to quality in terms of what assets you acquire. So once again, our team is able to do their due diligence. In a lot of case when you're buying a plant, there's opportunity to improve its efficiency and do operates in expansions. And we have the operational expertise to do that, which differentiates us from from many who who go in and buy assets and are more of a financial player as opposed to a strategic that can bring that incremental value and add, you know, upside to our shareholders. Sandra, one of the things I ask folks that come on the podcast is about their journey. And I always make the same joke when you were a a little kid on the playground. Did you always dream of being the CFO of a major energy company? What was your journey from from that playground to capital power? Yeah, that's an interesting one. I think I really just fell into it to be honest. I knew I wanted to go to university, had no idea what I wanted to do. So I think that the subjects that I enjoyed most and that I excelled in most were math and science. I did one year of natural sciences and couldn't think of how I would marry that with a career. So where would be the end goal? And I think, you know, at that point in my life, I wanted to see a pathway. I wanted to see where it would end and ended up going into business. And I enjoyed that. I think my my final decision to go into accounting was as I said accidental. It was I did major in finance and accounting and got my first job. Having just done one year in sciences, it meant that I was done after three years with the exception of one course. And so I ended up getting a job in an accounting department in my final year of university. And they offered me a job at the end of it and I've never looked back. So that's kind of how it all fell together. So not overly well planned. It just sort of took advantage of any opportunity as it presented myself. It presented itself to me. And this is where it's taken me. Has it been energy throughout? No, I started. I was in insurance for a number of years. So I worked in the life insurance industry in a number of different areas. I did spend part of my career in in claims administration on the benefit side. So a bit of a different different pathway there for a number of years to try a little more on the management and administration side. But then we avatated back into the financial stream. All right. And I can't, you know, end the podcast without asking about that equity offering, which I'm told was the most in demand institutional raise since capital powers IPO. Why? Is it because of the investment grade? What is it that have made that so successful? Yeah. So we've actually done two that in the last little while. So we did do an equity raise in December in anticipation of doing an acquisition. So we wanted to tap the market before we went into earnings blackout knowing that there were a number of opportunities that we were looking at. And it was highly over subscribed. And at that point in time, we didn't even have an acquisition to raise against. But I think we've just done a lot of legwork over the last number of years getting out in front of investors and talking about the story. When you look at the IPPs in the US, their valuations have really taken off over the last number of years. We see that the whole thematic around growing demand being sort of the tailwind. And so when we talked to investors, we talk about how we've been doing exactly what others are pivoting to do now. So when I described our strategy and how we've been executing, that's not a change for us. That's the way that we've been been growing since 2014. And so I think the story really resonated. And people see the strong thematic in the energy business and saw us as a credible organization that has laid out what we were going to do. And we do what we say we're going to do. And as a result of that, it's paid off with us being able to twice now in the course of just over three months, approach the equity market and get over subscribed, well over subscribed demand for our shares. So we think you've done our best at putting that capital to work in generating a long-term history of a strong total shareholder return. And we're pleased to have those outcomes, especially last week when we approached the market. We were probably the first offering since the tariff announcements that have created some challenges in the market. So we were particularly pleased to be able to see that we still had investor support and confidence in our strategy. Terrific. Once again, Sandra, congratulations for being selected as one of the 2020-25 faces of the industry. Congratulations for being recognized by your colleagues and your peers for your leadership. Well, thank you. It's truly an honor. So really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to join the podcast. Thanks for having me. My next guest on the podcast is Joy Brick Senior Technical Advisor with Nova Scotia Ballet. Joy, welcome to the podcast and congratulations on being one of the 2025 faces of the industry. Thank you very much, Frances. I'm very happy to be here. So recognized by your your colleagues and your peers in the sector for leadership. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, what was happening in that space. And so my understanding is a lot of work has been taken place with respect to developing and implementing that system integration. and it is all about wind, solar, battery energy storage. For the listener, maybe, how about a description of what, you know, what this initiative has been on all about? - So in Nova Scotia, we have a lot of coal mines because we had coal mines, so now we have a lot of coal generators. Coal, of course, we now wish to retire to meet decarbonization targets. So to take the coal off our system, we need to replace it with something to serve the load. In Nova Scotia, what we have is great wind. That's where all the hurricanes come in. We have lots of wind in Nova Scotia. So to take wind and replace a thermal, a synchronous plant with a wind facility, which is asynchronous, it doesn't have a built-in inertia. And then take a look at what supports you're gonna need to make that windy equivalent in supplying energy to a thermal machine. That's the task at hand. And it is, it's very complicated. I mean, remember when I was like a kid, I wanted to, you know, engineering rocket science. This was way harder than rocket science. There are a lot of grids on the planet where they've gone to very high IBR. - Yeah. - But in Nova Scotia, we're also weekly connected to the rest of the interconnection. We're now in the process of getting a new tyline through to New Brunswick, which will help that. But it'll still be relatively weekly connected and our ability to pull an energy over those ties is limited. So to put these inverter-based resources on, we got our first bit of experience with a maritime line. We put in an HVDC link between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. And we had to work very closely with the equipment manufacturers and with Newfoundland to think of how will it work. It's a very weak at the West Coast Newfoundland. It was very weak in Cape Breton. So we got really a very good grounding in control systems in weak grids during that. We developed talent with Nova Scotia. And we also worked a lot of talent working with other planners in the Atlantic Canada. Like we get together regularly in Atlantic Canada for provinces. We're developing common standards and how we're going to look at the models for wind and batteries and solar and pulling on our experience game with the maritime link to come up with solutions. So there's lots of areas in-- - So all the maritime link didn't happen. - The maritime, no, no, you're thinking that Atlantic? Look, maritime link. - It is. - It's already part of me. - Yeah, so that was the first time Newfoundland was connected to the Eastern interconnection. That was so exciting. Remember, like I say, when we had that first energy flow and the frequency in Newfoundland went to 60 hertz and stayed there instead of bouncing around. So what that link gave us initially when it was just a one-win connecting Newfoundland, I have Newfoundland dropped a generator suddenly, rather than having to drop customers, which you do when you're in Ireland. It would rapidly, like in milliseconds, pulling energy from Nova Scotia. And in that few seconds, their generators would ramp up and equalize the frequency. And then they would stop drying Nova Scotia. And it worked spectacularly well. We had a forest fire and ice storm, both of which connected Cape, right and two separate events from the rest of the mainland in Nova Scotia. Both times, we pull on Newfoundland. And we got enough support from them that it allowed us to survive the event better than we would have otherwise. It was to fairly significant events. One forest fire took out, a major transmission corridor for high voltage lines. There was an other time we had a massive ice storm took out to separate us from New Brunswick, separated in Nova Scotia, mainland from Cape Breton. And both those times, we pulled on Newfoundland. So we could see how control systems could be tuned and develop to work spectacularly well. So we went into this wind and battery with the mindset that we know how to do electromagnetic transient studies based on our experience there. We know that if we have a very good model of the system, it will match reality extremely old. Maritime link, this was Netafon. We have 345 KV line going into the substation where the Maritime link, the HVDC connects. And it's like, hang on. On Nova Scotia side. And Nova Scotia side, 345 KV goes into the terminal for the HVDC. And it's like, OK, I want to be sure before the vendor's gone. That this works like a supposed to. I was in the process of arranging to have a contract to come, put a chain into the 345 KV line, create a fault, and make sure it matched our simulated response. I was so disappointed. Lightning struck that line. But in a few kilometers. So I got all the data I needed, but I didn't get a fun of-- Of actually running. Actually running. Now we did do with the drone. You wanted to get to see the time. I just wanted to see-- You wanted to sabotage the line yourself. We did that with the DC. We used drone. We took the drone up. We put a copper wire in. That's on YouTube somewhere. And what we found is that our models, when we put in our simulated world of power system, when we put a lightning strike there, it looked exactly the same as when we experienced a lightning strike in reality. We had to traces. We could see what happened. So we know that if we had very good modeling, we can very accurately represent what's going to happen in the real world. So take that forward a couple of years from the maritime link. And now we're looking to win this coming. We've got to figure this out. Grid forming batteries. Not grid forming. It was batteries for the energy arbitrage to make the energy work or it's intermittent. We wanted to have batteries, transmission batteries. It was like, OK, we need the technical specification. Over the last year or so, NERC is now recommending grid forming for transmission batteries in North America. 2021 Nova Scotia power said, though, she'll have grid forming on your batteries that are coming in the Nova Scotia. We were pretty confident that we would use it sometime. So we have grid following, grid forming. Grid following means it takes signals from the grid and it gives you a megawatt output and it gives you a Q output. Grid forming means it's more like a traditional machine. It gives you an output of megawatts based on the system frequency and it gives you a Q output based on the voltage at that point. So we said, yeah, we think we're going to need this. It must be in spec. And we had to defend that pretty strongly. Well, we're now doing those PSCAT, those EMD studies. It will be in grid forming. All the time. If we had not specified grid forming four years ago, we would have probably need synchronous condensers to make those batteries be fully stable. What 100% right? OK. So I'm not sure where I might be taking this a little more deep than you wanted to go. Just saying. But to make this system work, they've done this in a lot of places around the world. But we're also hearing about black grids, cascading outages. In Nova Scotia, we're building on our knowledge. And we've put a team together specifically for these EMD studies. And we are very confident in our results if you got good models. So we do a lot of work with the OEMs. We've gone back and we're getting vendors to give us models for existing wind. And we test. We test. And we test. And what we found is that we need to be more stringent in putting wind on and say to rest in North America. Like NERKER Wright and Adder trying to put up PRC standards. And it's like, oh, type three wind only has this profile. So Adder allowed to do this much. Type four must do this much. We're saying, no. Your plan must be able to support the voltage, your point of interconnection. And you must be able to stay online for all normal grid events, lightning strikes, loss of lines, all of that, which means we have more stringent requirements to connect wind in Nova Scotia than just but anywhere. It requires synchronous style support or equivalent. And we've found nothing yet as good as the synchronous condenser. All of our finding there's some of the grid forming batteries are pretty good. We've got one right now for customer we're looking at a combination of a grid forming battery. It's solar together. We're working through the models. Once we got good models, we will stand by the results that's coming into simulations. Because we've matched a simulated world against real world events. So that has led us to have more stringent criteria. But we also have a lot of confidence that it is going to work. The other thing in our why we're so stringent is we don't want to say you put-- oh, it's really strong. You can connect a wind farm there. It's really strong. You can connect one there. We're saying anywhere in Nova Scotia, that is a transmission line that can get your mega watts out. You can put it there if you meet the standard. If you meet the standard. Yes. Which includes that support your plan must be able to stay online during all grid events. It must deliver voltage support. And like I say, it can't get into oscillatory behavior. It can't be dragged off. It's-- I don't know. So are you creating synthetic inertia? What synthetic inertia? Well, because you said-- as you move away from the traditional types of generation that have large spinning systems and moving into something that is in a very based-- does it react? What does-- so when they talk about inertia, and this is something that's been happening over the last couple of years, a lot of times what they mean is frequency support, that mega-wise support. That's been solved. Batteries can-- like the maritime link, like I say, a new from land with the maritime link, they lose a generator. [BLANK_AUDIO] Nova Scotia can send them energy automatically over the maritime link. That's not that they do not go a number for physiology. I would consider that as synthetic response. In Nova Scotia, we're looking to have batteries help support that. But inertia, everybody's got kind of focused on this megawatt. A inertia, what they're talking about is the big thermal plants have that heavy rotating mass. 60 hertz. Shhh, trucking along. Vompa in the power system. That keeps moving. You've got the head of steam. It keeps cranking out at 60 hertz for a while. That helps stabilize the frequency. People have focused on that megawatt. It also produces fault current and provides voltage response. The second part of inertia, which hasn't really been looked at, is that fault current and the voltage response. The grid forming batteries that we have are able to stay online and they are able to do the megawatt response. They do not produce fault current, but they can stay online and they can support the point of interconnection. They are a go, as long as the grid forming, and their point of interconnection. We're going to get more stringent because grid forming is a name that means different things. There's different types of grid forming. It's not real grid forming. It's kind of a synthetic. We're going to get more stringent on what kind of grid forming we want in our battery. That's one part. Back to the wind, there is nothing yet. I know there's some R&D going on. I'm grid forming wind. It's not there. Come talk to me when you get there. I really would like to test it. It's not there yet. We've got some of the vendors that are able to demonstrate. They can ride through at lower. Charts are going to be a, but then we're still seeing a bit of a silatory behavior for what I would consider normal faults. Like no, synchronous support, the synchronous condenser or equivalent. And there's nothing yet. Now we've got another wonder trying to do with a battery. They may. We're always looking at ways to do this better and at a better lower cost. Right now it's synchronous condensers. We're in the process of acquiring those. I'm not sure what the interview I was interviewing today is. My goal right now is soon as I got a delivery date for those synchronous condensers, I am getting in our work area and our private ability is going to be a year and a month of when we can run 100% IBR in Nova Scotia with confidence. Wow. That's my goal. I'm hoping it's within a couple years. We've got a little bit of must run hydro. I probably wouldn't be allowed to turn off. But we, I believe, are going to be able to do it with the grid forming batteries, the wind and the synchronous condensers. I think we're there. Well, especially when we get the second highlight because that'll give us that that will be a huge boost for reliability and the damping that we get there for frequency. We wouldn't have to rate but rock off rate of change of frequency if we got that second tie. That's a big bonus. So, yeah, second-tie line, synchronous condensers. What's the second-tie line? Second-tie line. There's still a couple of years out. I'm not yet. We're in total processes and then it's the build. We're doing massive studies because some of these we got to propose them right now. That's on one. You can see Indicute to put a 340 megawatts of wind on that timeline. That gets very interesting because it's so close to New Brunswick. The synchronous support is going to be needed. It's in conjunction with a very interesting load type. There's just so much on the go. It's just fabulous. Yeah. Joey, one of the things I asked folks to come on the podcast is about their journey. So, I'd be interested to hear what your journey is. How did I get to what I'm doing? Yeah, when you were a kid on the playground. Is this what you already streamed to doing? Well, when I was a kid on the playground, I didn't spend, probably a playground. I spent it in the library reading books that specifically, there's a couple specifically about engineering. There was one was an electrical engineer and one was a couple and they were civil processing industrial engineers. So yes, but then, I mean, I remember getting electricity. Okay, I'm from a very small community in Newfoundland. So life didn't take me right to engineering. I ended up raising my kids in my 20s. I did what work part time. I had a business on the side for a bit, things like that. The overseas for a bit took me there for my 30s. So I get back to Halifax. Move to Halo. Big cities, Halhouse, and you can first look at that. I need a good job. What's the fastest way to get a good job? Engineering. What's the easiest engineering you can do? Electrical. Which is always everybody's reaction, but I'm math. Okay. I'd like programming a math and that kind of, you know, probably in statistics. That's the kind of brain I have. That's my favorite stuff ever. So I'm 45 years old. I'm a sketchbag in the scholarship. I started there and I went back. Wow. Yeah, so I've had a blast. Joy, I want to thank you for taking the time to pop on the podcast. But also once again to congratulate you for being selected by your colleagues and your peers to be one of the 2025 faces of the industry. So thanks very much and congratulations. Thank you very much. And our third guest today is. Jeff Leninga from Manateeville Hydro on the section head of transmission, live line, electrical effects. Jeff, congratulations on being one of the faces of the industry in 2025. Well, thank you. It's a great honor to be here and receive that award and represent Manateeville Hydro. Let's dig into kind of one of the reasons why you're here. So live line engineer. So what is that in tail just for the listener? So they at least first off get an understanding of what it is that like you do. Well, when they say live line engineer, responsible for all of the safety criteria for the live line crews, supporting the development of new tools and new procedures. Well, everything from, you know, even the environmental conditions they work in. Okay. And so what is that when you're talking about new tools, just looking at some of my stuff, advanced insulating ropes. What is an advanced insulating rope? So essentially, Manateeville Hydro experienced flashovers on insulating hot sticks. So they're long insulating tubes that you would do live working on energized lines. Right. So when I say live working, that's the maintenance of transmission lines without shutting off the power. Right. So that Manateeville Hydro, that means 500,000 volts. Right. Alternate and current or DC. So working on working on a line while it's live. So the customer doesn't lose power. We also don't lose revenue. Yeah. We're keeping the reliability of the system intact. Right. So the insulating ropes you asked about. Yeah. So essentially, because of those accents we had, we found that those accents occurred because of contamination on the tools that was so light you couldn't even see it. So contamination on the tools. So that means they weren't supposed to be conducting and they did conduct. Yes, they did conduct. So what we found was it was from very, very light salt contamination, which could have been from the winter roads, salts getting onto the vehicles, onto their gloves, and then transferring onto the hot sticks. Or it could even be from when workers work and the sweat comes through their gloves. Yeah. And that's sodium chloride. Yeah. And so when we have those accidents, ropes made out of synthetic materials, pulley propelines, even in live working, people are doing utilities are using just ropes from the climbing industry for mountain climbing and they're accessing energized and they're only relying on the dry properties of those ropes. So we were finding, we knew that we wanted to have ropes now that we could clean. And also we wanted ropes that would meet the standards. We were finding that a lot of the ropes wouldn't meet the existing standards that we were testing to. Oh, wow. When we tried to do our own testing. Yeah. So we went down a journey of trying to develop a rope that could be used for various applications. And I could explain to you all the ways we've innovated and implemented if you want. So you've basically developed ropes. Ropes with a thermal plastic extruded jacket. There was the first. They didn't exist before. Well, the first generations of these ropes were created for hydrocobeck. Hydrocobeck did a project where they strung a new skyward over energy, 735 KV lines without outages. So this rope was created for that application. But the first generation of these ropes was extremely rigid and unusable for a live worker. They were very stiff. In the cold they would be hard to put through pulleys and blocks, etc. So I went to this company out of Montreal called Barry Courterge. They're the one that developed that for hydrocobeck and I said, "Can you make ropes that are notable and flammable?" that still have this coding. So together we innovated these ropes and went through testing and now it's actually leading to enhancing the international standards. I get the opportunity to work through IEC and change the international standards to consider these higher properties of these ropes. And they're being manufactured here as well? They're manufactured in Montreal, in Canada. Wow, okay. So that's another ticket in its favor as well. That's terrific. And so, used in live working helicopter ops rescue tasks. Yeah, maybe again for the listener. Maybe describe what are, you know, what does a helicopter ops mean? I've got a pretty good idea, but I'm not sure the listener knows when we're talking about live-line work in helicopter ops. So helicopters, we actually used a company out of Vancouver, our British Columbia, I should say. It's called the Cent Helicopters. And they developed their methods with BC Hydro over the last 20 years. And they're the most, I'd say, one of the most experienced in the world of working out around utility environment, energy-wise environment. So essentially BC Hydro, the used to use helicopters and have workers on working off the skid or a platform. So that's the way they started, but we've seen industry accidents on transmission lines where there's been contact with rotors and lines or helicopters getting tangled in the transmission structure. So they developed a British Columbia, they developed what's called the hoisting method. And the hoisting method is basically allowing the worker to stay in the helicopter a longer portion of the time. Right. And when they're working, they're lower down, lower down to the transmission structure, while the helicopter stays on a higher elevation away from a distance. So you can do all, I wouldn't say a helicopter is any different than doing live working out of an aerial device. For example, it's the same principle, it's just an access tool. Right. Can you do things with a helicopter obviously that you couldn't with an aerial device? Yes, because you can get to places. And you, I can say, I've had a talk about Hydro, we've done projects in recent years. In two weeks, we accomplished as much work as it would have normally taken three winters of building winter roads in the winter time. Just because you were at a helicopter. Just because we were able to access and have that speed of access. So from an electricity point of view, I would argue that helicopters the safest form of light working because you have no path to ground in you. Like a bird sitting on a wire. Yeah, yeah. So from an electrical point of view, I'd say it's very safe. And then one of the things I asked folks to come on the podcast is about their journey. So when you were a kid on the playground, did you dream of that this is what you would be doing? No. So what was your journey from the playground as a kid to the work that you're doing today? So I, well for myself actually when I graduated from high school, I wouldn't say my marks were like crazy out of the ballpark. But I did develop a love for math and sciences. Okay. I didn't even know what I wanted to be. I did a year of sciences at the University of Winnipeg. And then I went on to engineering and I decided to go into electrical engineering. And then by my fourth year, I started to form an interest in power systems. And I started to realize I'd like to stay in the province of work for Balthamau Hydro. So then my, that was in around 1999. And then I started as an engineer in trading at Balthamau Hydro. I gained a lot of my initial experience in power system studies and doing, you know, interconnection studies. And power transient studies. And I had a colleague in live line that wanted to bring that expertise to do studies on grounding scenarios. So working on de-energized lines. Yeah. You might not realize it. But de-energized lines are actually a cause of more fatality as an industry than live working. Right. So did not know that. Yeah. So the issue with working on de-energized lines is that you have many different conductors and objects that differ potential. And workers often end up bridging those. Right. Live line. You're working on one source at a time of, of high voltage. And you're much more focused on that risk. Gotcha. So you see a lot more incidents during grounding. So that was my initial, my initial introduction to live line. And then my boss at that time left, Matt of Hydro, and retired. And I got to take over live line at the same time as we were going back to work after those accidents that we experienced. Yeah. So we had about the 10 year break. Mm-hmm. And then I got to lead us back into that. So I would say also in my life when I first started working. I had four children. I spent the majority of my time focusing on my family. Mm-hmm. I started taking extra courses around that time. In 2017, I graduated with the Masters of Science and Electrical Engineering. Oh, okay. And right now I'm finishing a PhD. So I feel like I have been a lifelong student. And doing my education at the same time as working and getting involved in global industry standards. I had the opportunity to support industry through Matt of Hydro International. So I had a very rewarding career. I have a lot of respect for the line workers who put themselves in these situations working at heights, helicopters, high voltage. And I have a very good relationship with them. And I respect them and they respect and trust me. I believe in return. So it's been very rewarding. I'm always learning. Right. Always new challenges. Yeah. Yeah. What is a two-shed design for hot sticks? I'm just looking at my notes. Well, when we went back to work in 2013, when we realized that that like contamination of the tool could be a potential cause, it was the most likely cause that we found of the tool flashing over. Right. The high voltage testing simulations that we're doing, they're all showing that the sheds are, can stop these events. So when we went back to the in 2013, we implemented these heat shrink sheds. You have to heat up to shrink onto the tool. So when you think I was explaining it in my, in my interview. So think of, sometimes when we talk about electricity, it's helpful to think of it as water. So imagine a tool and you have water flowing on its surface. And imagine if there's nothing in its way, it's just going to flow all the way down and bridge that whole surface. But if we put a shed in the way, it's going to interrupt it and shed the water away. You'd need much more force to get that water to get across. That's the same thing with electricity. So that shed interrupts it. And we say a two piece shed. That was a recent innovation that was just driven by the applications we needed. So we want to install these sheds on aerial devices. You can't just, there is nothing we could find that you could, an aerial device is quite a large, a large insulating. I don't know how many inches, but probably a foot across 12 inches. And then also we wanted to put it on ladders. There was an incident in the United States where there was a flash over while the worker was on a ladder. So he said, okay, we want to put these on a ladder. Because of the rungs, you can't just slip something up and down. So that's innovated this design for a two piece design. So that first technology came out of the cable industry where they would install in the field they put those sheds on cables. So we just took it from that industry. It's just constant innovation, finding new ways to do things. And I hope to see globally, I'd like to see this become a requirement for manufacturers like that. This is given consideration. We're innovating, but how about keeping the rest of Canada and our worker safe globally? Are you involved in some of those initiatives to take this work and have it established and embedded in standards nationally? Yes, so I'm part of IEC right now, which is like the international electrical standards. And they have standards for tools, testing and equipment. So I'm actually the chair of the standard for live working ropes. I'm working at getting the requirements for these new ropes that can be tested at higher stresses. providing additional safety so in response to getting that international standard. So it's very challenging. I have to handle concerns from Europe and Europe and international teams. I had meetings last month meeting with all these different nations. So a great leadership opportunity. But standardization is it's very challenging right? It's one thing to convince your line workers or utilities the best thing that other countries it's it is it is political and political in a sense they have their own history and their own beliefs and I have to try to convince them of my way of thinking. Yeah absolutely. Yeah. Jeff thank you very much really appreciate you taking the time and once again congratulations on being named one of the 2025 faces of the industry. Brandy appreciate you taking the time to chat. Thanks for the opportunity with you today. For those that have been with the podcast since the beginning and those that have joined along the way thanks for listening tune in for future episodes including the next episode which will feature the other three 2025 faces of the industry winners. Please take the time to rate the podcast on whatever platform you use to listen and let me know what you think of the flux capacitor. You can find me through our website at electricity dot CA on LinkedIn and on Instagram as the Brad Bradley. Until the next episode let's continue the electricity conversation on our Facebook page on Instagram and at electricity dot CA.