Episode 11: Unlaced with Christopher Dean

[Music] Hello and welcome to Unlaced with Chocolate Bates. I'm Madison Trock. And I'm Evan Bates. And we're Olympic Ice Dancers for Team USA. If you're into sports betting, bet online is the fastest and easiest way to bet all your favorite sports. Head to their new updated desktop or mobile website to sign up today and receive your 50% welcome bonus on your first deposit. Just use our promo code, Believe50, to receive your bonus. Today we have a very special episode for you. We have our first ever guest on Unlaced, Christopher Dean. Chris is the 1984 Olympic Champion in Ice Dance and widely considered to be the greatest of all time. He is a constant source of inspiration to the two of us and we were so thrilled to get the chance to sit down and talk to Chris. So without further ado, here's our interview. So Chris, thank you so much for joining us. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. I know you're a highly efficient person and very punctual, so we're going to jump right in. Oh great, thank you. Lovely to be on the first guest on your podcast. We are so honored to have you here today. A few episodes ago we were taking questions from listeners and somebody asked what your favorite program of all time. And immediately the first thing on a Maddie's mouth was Balaro, of course Balaro. So recently I just went down a YouTube rabbit hole watching all of you and James programs and videos. And I was just like, oh my god, they're so amazing. I'm certain that if you came back to competition today, you would still be just as dominant as ever. And well, you flatter us on that way, but trust me, not going to happen. But I found myself I was just watching and I was like, oh my god, that's so hard. And Evan was sitting and yeah, he would just hear me randomly utter like, oh my god. Have you seen this? Can you believe this? I was on the other side of the room. We're both watching our own Corvallandine programs and just uttering like, that's so hard. Like, how do they do that? Oh my god. We're going to have to ask Chris how to do that. It's quite amazing because occasionally, you know, on Facebook or something, somebody posts something, which leads you to something. And I'm still coming across bits and pieces that I can't remember doing. But they're up there. So we must have done it at some time. Just the other day I saw something from the British Championships, which was way back in 1978 or '77, something like that. And you know, those old TV reruns that you see that it's all blurry and it was black and white. So that's how long ago it was. But the content and the creativity is still relevant. And just, I mean, I can't even imagine what it was like at that time for an audience member. That's what I was saying to Maddie last night. Can you imagine seeing them live? Like, they come out and they just do things that you're like, is it same for? It's incredible. Wow, you're very kind. Thank you. So we want to start just at the beginning. You started age 10. Your first ice dance partner is age 14, if I'm correct. But ice dance only became an Olympic event in '76 when you're 18. So when you started, you must not have really even had the Olympics on your radar. So when did the Olympic dream begin for you? You know what? It's sort of crept upon us, really. We started skating together, Jane and myself, when we were 15 years old. And it was just a sense that we'd both started skating. And that I actually left school very early on at the age of 15 and a half. And became, well, a policeman. Well, in actual fact, it was a police cadet. And we all sort of joke that a police cadet, the order of things are, you know, you go down the ranks and then eventually get to a policeman, then you get to a police dog, and then you get to a cadet. So I started as a cadet for a while and then became a policeman. But, um, enjoy. Are you skipped over the police dog? Well, the police dog was, you know, way ahead. I had aspirations to get beyond that. But we started skating together. And really, I think that we just had a passion to want to skate. And that our previous partners went off somewhere else and it left us in a void. And fortunately, you know, we, England's not a very big place, but there aren't that many ice rinks. And at that time, we were both at the same ice rink. And it was a suggestion of a coach at that time, Janet Soarbridge, who was a world competitor. She had started coaching and she had come up to teach myself and my previous partner. And after about six weeks, the previous partner left and so she was desperate to find a partner for me. And Jane was in a similar situation, you know, I think she was all of 15 and most probably too late to be a single skater. Because she'd been a pair skater. And she was a successful pair skater in the British anyway. And she was a champion when she was 13. And so she was sort of ruled the roost at the rink in a sense that, you know, whenever they were skating, people got out the way and all of that. So eventually she found herself without a partner. I found myself without a partner. So Janet said, why don't you two skate together? And everybody at the rink said, well, she's a free skater or a pair skater. She's not a dancer. And I just wanted a partner to be honest. And so we said, yes, okay, well, we'll give it a go. And then that morning when we first got together, very first morning, I remember it was in the first morning. It was 6am. We had to go in, open the rink up ourselves, put the lights on. And our rinks is one of those old cold damp, dirgy kind of places at the time. And you know, as you put the lights on, you see the rats in the my skater. We put it, switch everything on. And the first thing that Janet did to us was getting to dance holds and into dance hold. And she made us our belly is stomachs touch. And then she left us there for like 10 minutes, while she went up and did other things. What an ice. Absolutely. And that was the whole point of it. And I was like, how comfortable can you be with this new person? And so there we stood to looking around. So we started chatting to each other. But that was that was the beginning of it. And that was our first start. And then you know, after a week or so, Janet would say, well, how's it been going? Well, yeah, it's good. So we wanted to jinx it by saying, yeah, we think we're going to give it a go. So after a month, she would ask again, and we were still in that place that like, oh, and even to this day, we haven't agreed that we're going to continue skating with each other. It's not true. We're working on it. It's a slow bird. Well, it turned out to be the best burn. Oh, thank you. So we knew about the police background. When we got the lucky chance to collaborate with you on some programs, you passed down that rule to always step with your left foot first. And I know that that was that was taught to you with the police academy. But what other interviews did that time in your life have the discipline and the work ethic that you guys have? Yeah, well, I've never been a late person. It's not within me. I get anxious if I'm late. But the police definitely solidified that. And then in later years with Jane, her timekeeping is always like push it to the last minute. She feels that it's a success. Is she stepping onto the airplane, the door closes. That's been on time. And the philosophy is if you're not 10 minutes earlier already late. So there are the little differences. But I think, you know, together with over time, we've, we, you know, we found this in a partnership. You must know this that it's the respect for each other. And that you would expect that person to be doing the right things and turning up at the right times. And that's something that you gain in the partnership. I think that becomes ultimately successful. You have respect for each other. And at the same time, you understand each other. Their needs and where they're at. And, you know, as teenagers, we grew up from being early teens all the way through our life. We've gone through all the evolutions of life now. We're even at the stage where some friends are passing away now. So, you know, we've gone through the gambit of life of having children and all of those things. And nowadays, you know, we can, we can have conversations without talking. And just going off of what you said, I do feel like there is always one person in the partnership that is more punctual than the other one. Like just from knowing us and knowing some of our friends, like, I can certainly say, who is punctual and who is not punctual. And just to let you know, punctual one. And that resonated a bit when you described that. And you allow that to happen as right, man. He would get me there. Yeah, I'm like, oh, he's like, you move like molasses. Let's go. Glacial. Glacial. He's a glacial. Yeah. Oh, there you go. And it's perfect because I'm on the ice. Glacial is ice. I'm technically skating. This holiday season, say goodbye to the dull gifts. Lightbox lab-grown diamonds are the brightest gift of the year. Using cutting-edge technology and innovative techniques, they've cracked the science of sparkle, creating the highest quality lab-grown diamonds you can find at a light price of 800 per carrot. Lightbox lab-grown diamonds are the gift they'll never want to take off and the key to making every outfit sparkle. You and Jane have always been at the forefront of ice stands and pushing the boundaries of creativity. And we know you as the main choreographer. So what inspires you when you choreograph? So many things, it's not one thing per se. And I think it depends on the people. It depends on the event. So many factors that go into it, whether it's competitive, whether it's for show, whether it's for an art piece, all of those factors go into it. And sometimes it's the music, sometimes it's the idea. And then finding the music for the idea. But then I really like to get very technical and into the music to understand all the nuances of the music. And I like to go relatively prepared. I've got a lot of things in my head that I bring to the table. But from that, it's a jumping off point to somewhere else. I use that as a starting point. And then I like to allow, whoever I'm choreographing with, if they've got those skills to then add to that and bring something of them to the table as well. Because it's not, skating is not necessarily like a dance choreographer in the sense that the choreographer has the idea and the dancers he molds. He's like, I want this, this, and this. And I think with something I'm dancing, each couple become their own entity and their own abilities. And you need to work with that as well to get the best out of it. Because I'm not going to work with somebody that I can see. I've got this idea and I'm forcing it on them. And it's just not working. I want to work and allow them to bring something else to the table as well. And like I say, there'll be an idea or a spark of an idea or a concept. And then allowing it to flow from that. But still having an overall vision of what you want to get out of it. So what was then the backstory behind the creation of Balero? Was that music that inspired you? Yeah, well, each year after the championships, literally as the championship ends, let's say the world's in 81, which was a surprise for us to win. We weren't expected to win that year, but we did. And literally the next day our thoughts go to music. What's next? Where we're going. And so each year it's a constant. You're always cataloging music as you go along and as you go along. And so by the time we got to 1984 or the end of '83, going into '84, it was a question of, OK, what is the music? And what we had been using was Balero, the full orchestra piece, which is, you know, depending on how fast the leader plays, whether it's 18 and a half minutes or 22 minutes. We would use it as a warm-up. And we put it on. And that was our 20-minute stroking, exercising together. And by the end of that 20 minutes, OK, now we'll start our compulsories or original dance or freelance, whichever it may be. But that was our warm-up program. And as we started to think about '84, we obviously became with our bucket load of ideas and music and sat down with our trusted people at the time, which was Courtney Jones and Bobby and ourselves. And Balero came up. And we all went, Balero, it's one piece of music, and it's slow. But it's slow, but it's got a constant marching beat. But what's beautiful and incredible about Balero, it crescendos, it grows, it just rises up to a climactic end. And so it seemed the ideal piece of music. And we felt like it was original that, you know, it wasn't the three or four pieces of music that were sometimes spliced together somewhat randomly. Or, you know, we'd already been going down those orchestral themes anyway, you know, with Barnum and with Mac and Mabel. So Balero for us was there's a classical departure, but at the same time, in our heads, we always liked a narrative. We always wanted some thought of what it was about and where it was going. And so ultimately, you know, it's a Romeo Juliet-esque story in our heads, two lovers that from different families couldn't beat together so ultimately, they were climbing up the volcano, getting higher and higher, and they love stronger and stronger and ultimately, they're united together as one as they throw themselves into the volcano. That's our narrative, that's crazy, and whatever it sounds. But, you know, it's a passion. It's an internal energy to it. And that's where it came from. And that's what drove, you know, from that very, on the ice on our knees, very small. And as it grows, if you watch it, it's almost like a winding path choreographically that's sort of winding its way up to the edge of the volcano. That's brilliant. I didn't know about the volcano piece of it. I got the Romeo and Juliet vibe, though. I definitely feel that. But wow, the volcano. What a fiery way to-- At the end, that's why we sort of slid down and ended on the ice laid out. So that was the final bit in death, but united together. I love that. Oh, that's so beautiful. So poetic. There was death, you know, in our head. I always feel like I like a narrative. Oh, it makes a huge difference. To drive something to where it's going. You know, whether it's a strong, serious piece like that, or if it's somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but there's always this sort of narrative. And that's one of the hardest things, actually, humor on the ice to carry it off that it doesn't look like. I'm doing it right. But it looks doing it right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you get to the Olympics in Cereavo. And by that time, you've won three world titles, and you're the overwhelming favorite. Were there nerves happening still in your body? Like, what did it feel like to step on the ice? What went through your head? Obviously, there are nerves. But I think the build up and everybody's way of training is the way that you repeat it and you repeat it. It's a tip of the iceberg when you see that final performance. You know that. That what you do is that it's not a lucky performance. It's the performance that you've worked towards putting in all those groundwork, all those hours, to get it as consistent and as good as you can make it. And so going into it-- but at the end of the day, you know life performance is ice conditions, little trips, little lessons can happen. So you never know what's going to happen, but you practice to the 1/2 degree to try and find out all the possibilities. And going to the Olympics, we actually-- we traveled because we went to-- we trained in over-staff in Germany. And so we traveled with the German team to get to Cereavo on the train, which took over 20 hours to get there. And as we arrived, you know the British contingent with there and the press were there. And in over-staff and the way that we worked, we liked to be in isolation. And this was before social media and everything. So it was limited accessibility to us and certainly as broadcasting anything that we were doing. Whereas obviously today, the pressures of what's happening and social media and what everybody's doing, it's so accessible, minute by minute of the day. Whereas for us, we lived in our bubble in training in Oberstoff and we got in the train then. Something we arrived at Cereavo. And from the train to getting to the village, you know, as a massive media for us. And so for us, it was like, whoa, OK. And it was more of a-- from the press's point of view, and certainly, you know, the way it was relayed to certainly hearing, great Britain. It were the favorites and it's ours to lose. And so you don't really-- really want to hear those concepts and those ideas, because as you say, puts so much pressure on. I know what we want to do is to get there, go do our skate, do the skate, and get it done. 'Cause those final weeks in Oberstorf, that's how we train. We wouldn't necessarily put then hours on the ice that we would go on, do our warm ups, do the routine, and clear the ice, and practice that several times throughout the day, as opposed to, you know, we'd worked on all the elements of it throughout the year to get to that point. And so there's last two weeks with like, constant training of just going on, doing the routine, getting off the ice. And you know what it's like, that it's a good feeling to know that you can just take to the ice, skate around a few times, put the music on, do the number, and get off, and do that again consistently, without that idea of like, oh no, I've got to do every part of my program, running through, and you've done, the idea is that you do all of that outside of that last period, and that last period is that training of when you go to the Olympics. And of course, you know, you're being watched, it's not training when you're at the Olympics. You're being judged whilst you're on the ice, and everything that you do, every time you step on the ice. And so we were trying to get into that, that setting ahead of time. So we knew that every time that we went on, it was basically a performance. And every time we went on, we would run through everything. You know, if it was the original dance, we'd get on, we'd warm up for our two minutes, depending where you are in the line. But then we wouldn't train anything in between, if we were at the last. So we would gauge our time, do our warm-ups together, music, music on, get off the ice. And, you know, I think it was a psychological thing for us to say we're ready, and for all the other couples to see, "Oh, well, they've just come on and do it and get off." That's it. So, you know, highly efficient, yeah. And it was a performance every time. You're very ready. Very ready. Ready to put on a show, and then you go and you do put on a show. But for you, it's old hat at that point. And then the scores come out. Well, you say that, but the actual performance, people say, "Do you remember it?" But you know that thing they called in the zone. We were in the zone. It was, it almost like happened for itself. I mean, it wasn't autopilot by any means. But it was very much just the two of us there and then doing what we've done in every practice, not trying to do it any bigger than we've ever done it before. But certainly, when I look at it now, I look at it from outside that, from what I remember doing it. Because it was almost, you know, urinotrans for us. It was anyway when we did that performance. And it's only watching videos after the fact that you look, you stand outside of it and watch the performance. But I can't sort of replicate how I felt because it was at the time like a trance. Yeah, you were just in the state of flow. That special moment where everything comes together and becomes this iconic Olympic moment. And then the scores come up and it's an iconic, perfect, all sixes for artistic interpretation. So was that a surprise? And what did that feel like? The problem was, again, not only were we expected to win, but how many sixes are you going to get? Because each year we progressively got more sixes for our original set pattern or freelance and compulsory as even. And so obviously getting that was outstanding from our point of view. But everybody was like, well, how many sixes did you get this time? And so it's the pressure of like, how perfect it can be. And so from that point of view, it was a relief. And it's also for us, we practiced, rehearsed, got to that point, completed it successfully and it was such euphoria. But we had no plans. Well, we had a World Championship coming up after that. But after the World Championships in the Olympic year, we hadn't made any plans because it was true, a true amateur sports time. And so we couldn't earn any money, we can get any sign, any contracts or anything like that. So we were sort of employed after all of the for-a that had happened of what's next. And little did we know, since our career, we've skated together now for 47 years. And so we would have never envisaged that we'd be still here talking to current champion and still skating around. Talk about their career, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never get to. We heard so many stories about your professional skating career. And 10 minute long numbers, you and Jane skating multiple times in the show. And it just all sounds so physically demanding. And so I wonder, when you turned pro, was it harder on your body? Was it harder physically than competing? Yes. Yeah, because we'd be doing eight shows a week with our own show. And that's so, if it's your own show, if you're, and it's got your name above the manner. And we choreographed it, put it together. So we also had to be present. You know, it's the early days. It was before, collagen ice and all of the old shows were going. But this was something new. This is your show. And how much should you be out there? And so, yeah, now our first tour, which went on for nearly a year and a half around the world, eight shows a week, we were doing 10 numbers a night, nearly 10 numbers. Wow. And, you know, encounter with six minutes, we did four three dancers, we did two big ensemble numbers as well, a comedy piece. Yeah, so that was every night. We would lose five pounds of sweat every night. Oh my goodness. Did you go to more pairs of skates during your professional career? Oh, yeah. Your amateur career? Yeah, although you wanted to hang on to them as long as you could, because breaking new skates and during a working period, it's the worst thing to have to try and do. Oh, okay. You know, at least every six months, we were going through them. And we would have rotations like three or four sets of blades as well, so that we could just screw one lot off and put the next lot on. And eventually I learned how to do skate shortening, so that helped a little bit too. Yeah. So, inefficient and doing it for yourself. 10 years of that. Yeah. I mean. So after all of that, and then they changed the rules, so you could go back to competitive skating. Did it seem like that would be easy because you've had all of this professional training under your belt, and two, three numbers would just be a walk in the park. What brought you back to competitive skating? That was definitely that sort of, oh, this would be a walk in the park. But to go back, you know, 10 years after your Olympics and come back again, we thought that was sort of a big milestone as well to be able to do that. And, you know, because we've been performing so much, we were very fit. And so as that opportunity came up, we took it. And it was a new challenge for us. So, you know, it was inspiring for us. But it was, you know, you understand the politics and the vibe of the time. I think people felt like, oh, they're just coming back to get another really new Olympics and claim some limelight again, which it wasn't that at all. It really was a personal challenge for ourselves. And so coming back into it, we certainly felt outside of it. As before, when we were definitely at the front and center and leading it. So it was a different feeling altogether of coming back for that Olympic year. But, you know, we're so glad we did it. We wanted to do it. It pushed us again. And, you know, it kept some more longevity came from it as well. Yeah. And you mentioned the political climate. And it was an incredibly interesting time in world history, in skating history. The Soviet Union had just broken up. It had clearly impacted the scope of the judging panel. And I wonder how much did that political climate weigh on you leading in? And how did you deal with that? Well, it did. And it was difficult time, to be honest. The training and everything throughout the year was we enjoyed. But then as it got to the competition time, it was definitely we felt, we felt the pressure. And we felt the political politicization of it are feeling outside that. And as you said, the Soviet Union split up. And yet there was still a lot of satellite countries that are always been aligned with the same. of it union as well. So they each had their own judge and so the panel you know could be quite a bias panel let's say. I'm not saying that particularly year it was but it could easily have been that and we felt that and it wasn't it wasn't as obviously people were looking as well. Are they as good can they still do it and you know we had a lot of input like we want to bring it back to ice skating would put dance back into dance. So we were taking on all of this advice and we were heading and I think it was a different perspective from 10 years earlier when you could lead because you were at the forefront but when you're coming back into something you don't necessarily have the credentials again to say well this is what I think is what it's about now and I think what happened that we had a lot of input from a lot of people and maybe our original concept got diluted somewhat and that's where I've you know you learn from that and one of my big things is like you know really trust you got trust what you you feel is right if you if you have that capacity to feel it as opposed to be told it and that's one bit of advice I've always tried to work with moving forward is like if it feels right to me I'm going to go with it regardless of other critics. So you may have been advised to skate to something that you weren't necessarily the most passionate about or maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice had you gone with your gut and I just wonder was there something else that you had in mind that you wanted to skate to but maybe never got the chance to compete it. You know I've always been at this time you couldn't do that anyway but Gavin Guillem did it and I think I spoke with Murray France a couple of years before that but the spoken word with context of music behind it for me that was sort of the next sort of step forward but not just that but a rhythmic sound even repetitive sounds that sound rhythmic in the way that you say things that that was always something that I felt was but you know that's off in this very artistic tangent and I think you know deep you get into anything you want to explore and experiment in those areas but it's not necessarily a mass audience thing that you know not everybody goes that's great you know it's niche but that's what art is sometimes isn't it it's pushing those boundaries and going further but I'm not saying that in by any means that popular list skating isn't great as well but I think there are there are things that you want to try for yourself to experiment with and you don't always have the forums to be able to do it so yeah yeah that's still something that I like I like to work with you know young talented skaters to be able to do something like that. I feel like when you do have ideas like that and that may be a little bit out of the box I often find like at least recently for us and I would say a gabbing you I'm have had some programs like that the program like speaks through the skater and if your passionate about it it often comes through and you can show the audience something they they didn't know they wanted to see which I think is a really unique thing about our sport and something that you have done so well as a choreographer. Well one one tour that we did with the Russian All Stars we did a whole company piece of Philip Glass which was a 15 minute number and you know it's very out of the box and left of field it's all about Achnath and the Pharaoh and Philip Glass music you know it's minimalist music that sort of ebbs and flows and it's challenging sometimes to listen to or at least you know if you if you're if you're not familiar with it and so that for me was you know things like that get me going the the inspiration. As a choreographer you just create things that I have never seen on the ice before tricks and little highlight moves that you and Jane were known for and you've since distributed to other couples who you've worked with your most recent success when you created the long program for Alion and Bruno that then became another iconic Olympic moment when they won Golden Pyeongchang what was that moment like for you watching that and did it in any way reflect your experience in Sarajevo seeing them laying on the ice at the end wearing their purple costumes yeah that's a choreographer what was that like? Oh you know the first of all to work with such talent like that is a wonderful to be able to do and again it's learning how they move and what they want to do as well and so it's it's so that push and pull of pushing them and them saying this is where we want to go and and finally that dynamic but ultimately watching that performance give it give me shivers you know to feel that she she they had succeeded such great athletes and certainly Aliona you know all the years that she's put into it was I just felt proud for them and it was great to be you know a small part of that. Just following up on that we have one final question for you and that is what advice would you give to an ice dance team preparing for the Olympic Games aiming for the podium? You know you've got to you know what you have to do you've done it many times believe in yourself and and skate with the passion that you have yeah you know you have that passion I know you have that I've seen that passion many times and you know you you have this ability of connection between the two of you and allow that to come out allow that connection that people believe you and what you're doing and I do believe that is that eye contact that feeling that knowing that other person's there that you actually become one on the ice then so believe in yourself you have that brilliant Chris thank you so much you are such a huge inspiration to the two of us and to the skating world at large you are a gift and we thank you so much for your time today thank you so much I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show and please say hi to diesel and Karen for us hope everyone's doing well happy holidays I will pass it on happy holidays thanks guys this has been an episode of Unlaced with chalk and baits we want to say a big thank you to our special guest Christopher Dean chatting with you with such an inspiration as it always is and we're so grateful that you took the time to chat with us today make sure you subscribe for future episodes and follow us on social media at chalk baits talk to you soon bye [BLANK_AUDIO]