Episode 11: Mondiacult - Unleashing the power of culture to achieve sustainable development

[Music] Welcome to this new episode of the EMC podcast Music Webs. Weaving Connections and Untangling Cultural Policies in Europe. The subsequent episode was recorded in January, 2026. [Music] Hello everyone. It's a great pleasure to have you here at this new EMC podcast. Today we will be talking about the Mondia called Conference that took place in September, 2025 in Barcelona. My name is Mona Dutt and I'm one of the two secretaries general of the European Music Council and today I'm joined by Sylvia Fisher and Jordi Pasqual. And I would like to ask you to introduce yourselves quickly. Thank you. Hello, Zamona. Thank you for having me. My name is Sylvia Fisher and I am the secretary general of the International Music Council, which is the International umbrella of the EMC. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to all. This is Jordi Pasqual speaking from Barcelona. I am the coordinator of the Culture Committee of the World Organization of United Cities and Local Governments, also an umbrella, a global umbrella organization, organizations and associations of the cities, local and regional governments. A great pleasure to be in this conversation with Sylvia and Simone. Wonderful. Thank you really both for having accepted the invitation and you all hear that we are really joined by international experts and this is a real pleasure especially talking about the Mondia called 2025 Conference because it's the World Conference on Cultural Policy of UNESCO. And actually if I'm right, it's only the third edition. So the first edition took place in 1982. Then we had in 2022 the edition in Mexico and then 2025, so four or five months ago in Barcelona, the third edition. So this Monday called Conference brings together basically policy makers from UNESCO to talk about the role of culture. And in this edition, the key topic was unleashing the power of culture to achieve this daynable development and the conference was huge. I was very happy and privileged also to be able to attend such as Sylvia and Jordi were and was really, as I said, was huge more than 2,500 participants from 160 countries and really bringing together ministers of culture more than 100. And if I'm correct and also civil society representatives in that gathering and the topics as such were talking about cultural rights, digital technologies, cultural climate action, the economy of culture, culture and education and culture heritage and crisis. So a lot of different topics and a lot of different sessions and if you were there, it was also really a lot to digest because what was also interesting to see there were side events that also focused on that topics as well as civil society, a conference, the Aguara Civic Cup that took actually place more at the other end of Barcelona. So it was not so easy to just hop between the two. So a lot of talks, a lot of discussions on a lot of important topics. So what was your first takeaway or how was your first impression when you when you entered maybe Sylvia if you want to start on that? This was my second Mondia Cult experience. If I may say so, I attended Mondia Cult 2022 in Mexico City. It is always quite an experience. These international conferences, huge building, of course the conference center, the international conference center and lots of people, a program that is packed, you really need to be able to read such a program and to make choices because there's a lot of parallel things going on. And from the outset, we should say that the outcome document that was adopted at the end of the conference actually had been prepared and adopted before we all came to Barcelona. So this is how intergovernmental conferences, intergovernmental policies being made. Everything is done before and in the end people come together to just either reinforce their position or at least have a conversation with others. If I may quickly jump in on that because that was for me something that I was really astonished that I felt like, okay, how in the end at the very last day when this final declaration was then presented, I felt like how does that relate and when was it actually written? I was very much so as you know, more and you be in all of that, I really had to learn and understand that's more the diplomatic park head or how these intergovernmental UN UNESCO things actually work. I would have thought, you know, this is more than you just ask you work together and then this is part of a final document, but I understand that this is not how it is. No, it's not really what it is. Actually, the process of putting together such a declaration, such a document, they called it on purpose outcome document and not declaration because we had the Montier-Coult 2022 declaration. So the process started already one and a half year before Montier-Coult actually and again, we are talking about intergovernmental processes. So there were regional consultations about topics that UNESCO, a secretary had defined that came out of Montier-Coult 2022 and regional consultation means again, intergovernmental consultations, but to which civil society organizations, non-governmental organizations are invited. Regional consultations took place in the 6th UNESCO, defined regions, Western Europe and North America, Eastern Europe, Latin America and the Caribbean, the Arab States, Africa and Asia Pacific. And by the way, IMC and EMC precisely took part in these regional consultations, we were able as non-governmental organizations to also offer our input to the topics that were discussed at regional level. And then of course, all the inputs from the regional consultations were brought together by the UNESCO Secretary and they started to draft a first draft or zero draft of this outcome document and this again went through intergovernmental consultation processes where civil society was not included. In the end, we more or less discovered the outcome document when we came to Barcelona. Charity, so you are based in Barcelona and but also with the Culture 2030 goal campaign, you are very much of course focusing on with your work on culture in the sustainable development goals and how did you experience the Mundial Code conference? It is very important that Mundial Code happens. It is the biased moment in the global conversation on development in which the focus is on the cultural capacities, the content of the work of artists and cultural professionals. We perhaps could discuss if the conference in Stockholm in 1998 was also a similar conference to Mundial Code. And it is not added in the series, fairly because it was not called as Mundial Code in 1998, but also because it was a failure. Let's put it this way. In 1998, the conference of Stockholm was meant to take all the findings and engagements of the decade on culture and development and sustainable development in 1987, 1996. And the representatives in that conference, ministers for culture, were not able to who, uh, sweetly, uh, coherently translate into national and international policies, the findings of the world decade on culture and development. To be a little bit more pessimistic, but let me say also that, the world decade on culture and development, the results, the results of the Peres de Cuéjar report were mainly focusing on cultural rights. And we're giving to civil society a very strong place in the analysis and the delivery of cultural rights. It is not difficult to imagine why states feel not ready to translate those suggestions into policies. And the moment is not that part from the one we are living today. I would say today it's a little bit worse because in 1998 we had the first frame of the UN and everyone was, uh, say, expecting the society of knowledge, as we called it, in the end of the 1990s, was going to deliver positive benefits to everyone. To the realities and other one, the society of knowledge does not exist. The society of noise and control of the society. And control by the big text in California and other places are the ones ruling the exchanges. The society of information is also a society of disinformation. As a frame note, let's, let's consider Stockholm and the failure and that context. Then, Monday, a cult, uh, Barcelona, a success. Yes. Uh, in representation in the topics delivered in the achievements less optimistic because probably the wording on the culture goal, uh, that exists that in the declaration of 2022. Monday, a cult 2022 Mexico City is a bit stronger than the one that it was delivered by member states in in Barcelona in 2025. But to be positive, the discussion on the culture goal is already taking place. And this is positive. The discussions in 2025 between the UNESCO leaders in Paris with the offices they have all over the world. With countries with civil society are explicitly on the feasibility, the opportunity of the culture goal. The conversation is open. No, it is not open. Civil society is not participating as much as it participates in other UN conferences. And in other UN processes, they still say the relation between power, institution, and society is to be developed within within UNESCO. It's actually very interesting what you're saying, because at the one hand, when you look at when you when you were talking about Stockholm, where there was also a lot of expectations then from civil societies to actually implement the cultural rights, if I understood that correctly. Now we see that actually there is not so much of a really embedded involvement of the civil society in the in the debate and the further advancement of the culture goal. Listening to you carefully, it's also when you're saying, you know, the kind of the the realities of today where you say maybe maybe the realities are even worse. Then then during the end of the 1990s, but at the same time, all the topics that are critical were actually discussed. For example, freedom of artistic expression, there were topics and debates about that. So so isn't there also partly a hope in the debates and the discussions that took place during Monday, how do you see that maybe charity and then also Syria. Yes, the debates can still take place. But when when we notice that even in the self called even in the in the countries with a long tradition of open democratic frame, there are huge threats to those freedoms. Then it is coherent that we are worried the discussions. Yes, take place with mainly in the plenary sessions of Monday of old with institutional presence with quite low presence of civil society. Let me add here the existence of a culture goal would be a great progress because then the discussions first it would not only take place internationally every three years or every say every every two years when it comes to the to the implementation of the implementation of the UNESCO conventions. It would take place more often and it would take place nationally the results of the talks in Barcelona on culture and peace on cultural and artistic education on gender equality to name three of the great reports produced by UNESCO. Consider it by UNESCO member states and implemented nationally not all the countries implement those reports or the excellent recommendations of those reports nationally. If a culture goal existed then members dates could be firmly invited to develop policies in those directions and the discussions would take place more frequently nationally, regionally and globally. And the civil society would have more ground to be involved in those discussions nationally, regionally and globally. What was actually also very, very impressed by the high number of really very well prepared and insightful studies and publications during Monday or called that was such a such a big amount and so impressive. I would like to immediately echo what you just said, Simone, about the wealth of of information reports that were released on the occasion of Mondia, and of course you would think if there hadn't been Mondia, what would these data collections, these reflections, these analyses have happened. One of the outcomes of Mondia, could 2022 was apart from the declaration was the fact that there would be a global report on culture policies every four years. And the first report was produced for Mondia, called 2025 and it was presented also during a quite high level conversation. But there were, and I'm like you, other reports, they are still on my to read list. I think Mondia could indeed has been the occasion to force also UNESCO and to kind of force member states to reflect on issues they would maybe have put aside. And therefore I fully agree with with Jody that it is important that Mondia could happens has happened and continues to happen. Of course, we would like to see culture policies be on the agenda of every government every day and not just every four years. And indeed the culture goal discussion is about putting culture on the agenda of policy across all policy areas actually also. So to underline on the one hand, the fact that culture is in an able and to driver of development. But really to have this sector approach and the vector approach to to culture to recognize that it can enable a lot of other policies, but that it also needs its own policy definition. Let me echo the also Simone some cultural actors are a bit reluctant to the culture goal because some fear we would be caged in one in one goal only that's false. Let's be very clear that's false. The feminist movement monitors the implementation of the 17 goals, including the SDG five on gender equality, the climate activists monitor the 17 goals, including the goals related to forest to climate action to. water to all of them. And the cultural activists and the cultural professionals, if there was an SDG 18, we would be monitoring, involve implementing, supporting the implementation of the other 17, as well as delivering what we know, how to deliver. Creativity, diversity, transmission of knowledge, heritage, rituality. So it's so important that we have a cultural goal, so important. It is also important for our responsibility, to accept that we are not absent. We are at the middle of the discussions on democracy and freedoms. And we have to take serious commitments in the activism and the delivery of double elements. And if I may add to this, there's a reason why this UNESCO report, a global report on cultural policies, is titled "The Missing Goal". I mean, it's a statement also given to the world. What was your best moment at one day I called Cilia? There were several. I was very impressed by the speeches given by representatives of Spain and Catalonia. At the opening ceremony, I was very impressed by the concert of Jordi Saval and his musicians in the beautiful Palau de la Musica. I was very interested to go to a site event that was about South-Cowoperation and actually having representatives from Central Africa, speaking to representatives from Central America. The best moments, difficult to pick one because there were many. But the collection of the energies in the site events organized by civil society, this could be certainly the best moment. And second one would be the final closing ceremony session in which the claim for a cultural goal was very explicit by the organizers, UNESCO and Spain, the organizers, including the director general of UNESCO. The difficult moments, I was not in the difficult moments. I was not in the conversations between the members of the executive bureau of UNESCO in which some of the members said, "We don't want a clear statement on the cultural goal." And that's extremely sad. If ministers for culture explicitly saying, "In closed meetings, we don't want a cultural goal," this is extremely worrying. Indeed. But on the other hand, I think the three of what Monja Colt or the whole discussion about the outcome document brought to light is a divide among regions, even among states, but also among regions. I think the most interesting part of the oral report of the rapporteur of Monja Colt was when she started to say what countries or groups of states had wished to be set in this oral report. And this was Kenya on behalf of all Sub-Saharan Africa, regretting that the wording was not strong enough, that they would have preferred the word that a culture goal should be included and not just be considered. If you read the outcome document, the wording is that culture should be considered as a stand-alone goal in the next development agenda. So, considered was the wording that found the consensus. But as I said, Kenya, for speaking for Sub-Saharan Africa, was not happy about this. There were other groups of countries. There were countries from Latin America, Chile, for example, also had requested that this be officially set. They were not happy. To me, from the outside, also from the inside, because I heard these conversations at the executive board of UNESCO, it is set. It is set to witness that some countries for various reasons seem to really block the wish of others. Do you think maybe also this wish to not be so explicit about culture? Is that because they, I mean, I'm now maybe a bit going over the top, but is that because they think culture can be too powerful if it was included? Because I wonder, you know, it's why would you, as a culture minister, not be in favor of having it explicitly spelled out that the next SDGs need a standalone gold for culture? But of course, you may not know if you have not talked to them. But what might be the reason for that? It's not understandable. The really weird thing is that the hesitation or retisons in French comes from countries that have strong culture policies. Not all, but many of them have strong culture policies. So it's difficult to consider an argument that they would be afraid of the power of culture because in their countries, they give power to culture. But there are other reasons. The remains of colonialism that exist still in those countries that have strong cultural policies, but have not openly faced. That the 21st century is about recognition of colonialism. First, second, market domination. Difficulties by some countries to lose some markets. And third, the narrative of the civil society in the last 20, 30 years is about the power of culture, the transformative power of culture. But this is something that the institution state knows perfectly since the end of the 19th century. Explicitly or implicitly, culture is glued to power and to open a conversation in which this is less glued or more accountable to other narratives. It's a danger. The best moments for me at Mondia Colt were really the moments at the side events, actually. And when you always had an artistic intervention, like the concept of Jorissa Val, or the Samenko, or things that were really where you could feel why we are talking here, where you could really also understand much better. Sometimes I really feel that it's much better understood why we are talking a lot about cultural policy and why culture is so important when you actually feel it again. And I think that was really brilliantly done in Mondia Colt. But my nose actually really relate to this complexity of these, the real Mondia Colt sessions. When the Minister's talk, because for those who were not there, it was for me at the beginning, at the first day, I had no idea what was a real Mondia Colt session and what was the side event. Because the beauty of it was that everything took place at the big convention center. And you had the different sessions. And then you looked where you would want to go, automatically. But these official Mondia Colt sessions, they were where actually the state representatives and the Ministers of Cultural set in a circle and debate it on a specific topic. And in these, the debates, most of them actually just read out the state or pre-written statements. And for me, I had one point then, as I understood it, I didn't go there anymore because I really liked the interaction there. But I think there were good ones that I then unfortunately missed, where the interaction was actually taken part. I really had some sessions where I thought, well, this is lying to your face. Diplomatic diplomacy, I thought, oh, that's about lying. I mean, I'm really a newbie to these very high diplomatic circles. And I was shocked how politicians of countries that have more populist governments were just able to say whatever they wanted without being contradicted by anybody else sitting in that round. And I mean, I know, and I'm fortunate that I wasn't there that the UN Special Reperture for Cultural Rights, Alexander Ksantaki, she was there and she very fortunately took the floor and said something. And I was unfortunate not at that session because all the sessions that I attended, it's just nobody said anything. I guess I have become used to it to such incidents. Where again, I think when when ministers of Kratya come or representatives of governments come to such events, they won't be self-criticizing what happens in their country. So they would always be talking very in very positive terms. And we see the same sometimes with the reports that governments produce for on the implementation of UNESCO conventions. So there is from a civil society point of view, we do see discrepancies and that's why it is always important to give civil society to opportunity not to contradict, but to offer its own perspective. Within sometimes comes in contradiction, but that's for those who read and to listen to appreciate this contradiction. Having listened to many instances of such governmental positions, it has reinforced in my mind really to need to give civil society organizations an opportunity to offer its own perspective in all policy arenas. Or maybe one has to be more trained in understanding that a civil society statement then actually is an opposition to something that has been said. Like I said, maybe still to naive when someone from an autocratic state, state states, culture is freedom and freedom is culture. Yeah, but there are writers in flission in your country and nobody is saying anything and also not a rapporteur or an observer in such a circle. What I have seen in also discussions among civil society organizations is, is the question, do we name and shame openly or do we just point out in general problems that we see in general. But then count on reports that specifically give statistics report on situations, very concrete situations of organizations. And these reports are done by organizations whose mission is to inform about, for example, violations of freedom of expressions. It's maybe difficult to correct in the room someone at least to have an authoritative voice to correct someone in a room rather than offering your perspective in another way. Are there any kind of rules or something for representatives of states what they can actually present in such a because I mean again I have not been part of that session. But you know you have authoritarian states that are in war and they do propaganda. And speaking I'm used to countries openly attacking each other verbally during UNESCO meetings in a diplomatic way but still attacking each other. So I don't think there are rules in in the sense. And I think there is something to be used to and when we are looking at the next Monday call that maybe to better prepare and it's good to have people like Alexandra Santaquay to be then open and dare to speak up. We cannot leave the special reporter to be the only voice. Exactly. The announcement is the situation we have to be better equipped as soon as possible and I think that the gravity of the situation is felt by many networks globally and and originally and nationally certainly. So it is it is time to better prepare the cohesiveness of the civil society vis-à-vis the big UNESCO conferences and that's for civil society to be maybe stronger together. So should we try to yeah I don't know. I have meetings that prepare us then on beforehand maybe more. And when you come I mean next next Monday call this in Saudi Arabia. I think we'll come to this for example when it comes to the 2005 convention on the diversity of cultural expressions. There is an effort to coordinate civil society interventions so that first of all we reinforce each other statements. And we don't contradict each other or we try not to contradict each other and we prepare a strong a strong presence a strong voice of civil society together. Indeed this has not happened with one year called because it is not so easy to actually know who will be there. So let's say global coordination of civil society organizations attending Monday call sessions. That coordination does not exist. There are groups that talk to each other but more in an informal way and there's of course our culture 2030 goal campaign was with its its agora of supporters and contributors. And such there's not such a thing as a community of civil society organizations that go to Monday call also because they're I mean as we said there there have been three additions now plus Stockholm. Maybe it takes more additions to create this community. The other thing that goes on in my mind of course is of course we it's it's also not at all about preparing ourselves for the next Monday calls because I mean Monday call this one thing the other thing is we want a culture I stand alone goal and we want culture to be recognized in. Also in other policies and that that culture has a strong role to play in our societies and also given that role by the government. And I think this is something that we also continuously should work on and this is also something that I currently see as as it really is is really under pressure not only is it challenged in financially where budget arc cuts it's it's really also challenged. On on a value based level when politics start to interfere more and more with how culture is presented or the content of culture and I feel that the world is closing a little bit down on on on how freely we can actually express ourselves culturally even in in Europe and European countries you know and it's it's something that I think is on the geopolitical context currently also something that is. And also something that we need to be really looking at i'm starting to be a bit pessimistic unfortunately impossible not to share what what you say Simone another historical perspective is is is is is is is is is very important. A century ago the church was totally against the freedoms that we now have in many countries around the world expression assembly we have to stick to do what human dignity means and and and when you stick to that connection between culture and human rights is very obvious. And the need for strong voices from the civil society in those difficult in these difficult dark moments are needed we are not badly equipped to raise our voice and to defend that connection between. The right to participate in cultural life democracy. All the human rights and development we do observe in Europe quite an attack on on the way we operate we see our our means. We see our areas of action more delimited when it comes to other regions we have different situations even more other difficulties let's put it that way region states where you can't even openly speak about cultural rights and where you have to be very cautious and when you are an artist when you are a country. And then we also have countries where there is either no culture policy or there's there's no implementation of any culture policies where the rights of of artists are absolutely not respected. And I think we need to keep talking to each other to also understand where are the difficulties for each of us but one thing should unite isn't that is our. right to enjoy our rights. When I started at the EMC, what, and 20 years ago, I had this, probably now I would say, very naive belief with culture and freedom of cultural expressions. You can export democracy, you can just make, you can change the world in small and in little, and you just need to really support culture. And then this whole idea of democracy and freedom of expression, which is to be multiplied across the world. But now we are in 2026, and the world has changed so much to the country. And now democracies are just turning away from democracy, looking again at an international geopolitical level. And we are all despite the two of you being really working in an international context, but we are all based in Europe. It's so interesting that I think that I'm so European in a way that to me, democracy and the freedom of speech is just the only thing, and this is the thing, I would not want to accept any other thing. At the same time, we are also talking about overcoming colonial structures, and we don't want to go around the world and fight in a war for that. This is something that is really worrying me and from a very European standpoint that we defend, or that I believe, talking from my perspective, similarly believe in these values, but I don't actually know how to defend them currently. - This feeling is more and more often within me, but we have the responsibility to keep the energy high and to repeat and repeat again, that the alternative to a Beijing founding development outside human dignity is impossible. (gentle music) - So I think we come towards the end, but I really would love to, I know that I have dragged it down a bit to the very pessimistic and dark part, but it would be lovely to also end the podcast, end our conversation on a positive note. What gives you hope? - Hope that some countries in the reports, they will send in April, May this year to the high level political forum with ad, spontaneously chapter on SDG 18 culture, also that in September, 2027, when the negotiations for the post 2030, the evidence on this leave no one behind connection between development and democracy and culture are obvious to everyone and also in between this, say, February, January, February, 2026, and September, 2027, we have met, or let me put it a bit more accurately, wall leaders of cultural networks meet and decide an agenda of minimum to talk with UNESCO and to prepare the next Monday, April, 2028 or nine, - 29, 29, 29, 29. - 29, Riat. My concrete hope is that those countries who today, or at Mondiaquil wanted to just consider culture as a standalone goal, will change their minds exactly by the start of the negotiations and will take a strong stand in favor of a standalone goal in these negotiations. And I also hope that the next ADG for culture will be as supportive of a standalone culture goal as Ernesto Otóne has been during his mandate. And I also hope that more and more, yes, cultural networks will join the campaign as supporters to reach what Jordi has said, that we all come together and are able to be a strong voice as civil society networks. And that Mondiaquil's 2029, and that's a little dream, will actually take note of the fact that negotiations have been successful. Thank you so much. I think what gives me hope is for sure the two of you and all the others that are in that fight together with you and us. I think we have such a great basis of really committed persons, individuals working in the culture sector for networks but also on the ground and that we strengthen each other, that we are in solidarity, that we are good to each other. Let's, I mean, this gives me hope. And the wish for me is let's be kind to each other, even if we disagree, let's really work on that togetherness. And then I think we can achieve a lot. Good night.