EPISODE 11: Missed miscarriages and coping with pregnancy after loss with Maddy Zanatta

[Music] Welcome to the Miss Codulean. I'm Sam Payne, CEO and co-founder of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And I'm Stacy June Lewis, Councillor Psychotherapist and Broadcaster. This podcast is where we share stories of many Australians who have lost their babies to early pregnancy loss. With evidence and empathy, we unpack the shame, blame and stigma and the lack of support that many face. This is a loss that has been silenced for too long. We deserve better. We are here to normalise the conversation and we're here to make lasting change. [Music] Today we welcome the wonderful Maddie Zanata to the Miss Carriage Rebellion. Maddie is a fashion and beauty content creator, a model, a musician and a mum to her beautiful Rainbow Baby Centre. Maddie went through a lot to get her Rainbow Baby, which she has shared on her social platforms. And today she generously shares in more detail. This story is one we know many of you will relate to. So without further ado, please welcome Maddie to the podcast. Really grateful to have you here today, Maddie, on the Miss Carriage Rebellion to share your experience with our listeners and to help us advocate for change. So for the benefit of the listeners that don't maybe follow you on Instagram or don't know your story, if you could tell us what happened to you, what were your experiences of Miss Carriage? So my husband and I had two Miss Carriages. So a Miss Carriages when you don't have any symptoms, you just find out at your ultrasound. So we actually got pregnant on our honeymoon, which was lovely. And we were super excited. When I got the test, I just couldn't believe that it happened like the first time that we tried. Yeah. Which we're extremely grateful for, extremely lucky for. And you know, I'd already planned how to tell our parents and how to have a baby shower and all this other thing. You plan this whole life as soon as you see that test. And never in a million years did I ever think that that could happen that I would be a statistic. So I went to see my obstetrician Dr. Drumeoffrey. And it was our very first, I think it was our first, maybe our second appointment. And the very second time we'd seen, you know what it was the second time because we had gone to our initial ultrasound and found the heartbeat and everything. And I remember him just really struggling to find the heartbeat. And he just kept saying like, it's okay, like this is an old machine. Let me just keep checking, keep checking. And then, then his face changed. And I thought, oh, what do you mean? And I just remember my whole like, world just crashing down. Yeah. And it was just the worst thing that could have happened in that moment. And even just thinking about that has really brought back all those emotions in that time. And I think it was just the shock of it. Yeah. Of the fact that I never, I wasn't prepared, wasn't emotionally or physically prepared for that. It wasn't even on my scope of things for it to happen. And then when I called my parents and told them, I found out that, you know, my nan had had two miscarriages. My mom had had a miscarriage, my sister-in-law had had two miscarriages. And I just thought I felt a bit betrayed because no one had talked about it. No one had prepared me for that. Like, you hear all these things like, oh no, you shouldn't tell people until 14 weeks, just in case. Or you shouldn't do this. So you shouldn't do that. You know, just in case the worst happens. And unfortunately, the worst had happened. And I remember thinking, I don't want to be like that. So in the moment, I just put a post up on Instagram. Just because I thought, if I could help one person, and I know you don't want to think about miscarriage when you're pregnant. But if I could just prepare one person, just to, you know, just so they could mentally prepare for that, not that you can. But I don't know where I'm going. No, but I know what you mean. I do. I think, you'd rather say, is that whole education piece, right? Yes. For you, you almost felt cheated by the sisterhood because no one talked about miscarriage to you. So it was something that happened to others. Yes. You knew it was maybe common. You didn't know how common. No, yeah. And you wouldn't think yourself would be a statistic either. Yeah. None of us do, right? Yeah. And then you land here, and I've heard it described in a way like it's almost like you wake up swimming in a different sea. 100%. You have no idea until you actually go through it. And so you want to share on Instagram is a beautiful way of wanting to almost prepare people. So that if it happens. Yes. But it's also about normalizing the conversation. That's what it's more so about was normalizing it and saying that, hey, this has happened to me. If it's also happened to you, I'm with you. Yes. Solidarity. Yes. Like we are now all a part of this club that we haven't chosen to be in. Yeah. None of us want to be here. No, exactly. Yeah. But we're all here and only we can really understand what it's like. Yes. Yes. So I know that my girlfriend, she'd had quite a few mischaracters, quite a few mischaracters. And she was just this rock to me during that time because she understood. Yeah. And a lot of people didn't, you know, the comments. The comments. I will try again. The worst ones. It's like they're minimising it to try and make you feel better. I think more so that to make them feel like they are trying to give advice and that makes them feel better. Managing their own discomfort. Yes. It's, yes. It's, they don't want to be put in that awkward situation where you start crying and getting emotional in front of them so they kind of brush it off. Yeah. And that's the worst thing that you could possibly do. Yeah. Because we're terrible at dealing with grief. Yeah. And then you add in the fact that this is an invisible loss of a baby that they've not seen. Yes. So it's not the normal grief trajectory. Yeah. It's a reversal of life order. It's not like an old person that's passed away. It's not someone who you know their personality and you physically hold them. And then you add in this kind of add, they are imagining like a vendigam, you add in then baby death into that and women's health and periods and blood. And it's so many taboos and stigmas all in one thing. Yes. That it's too hard for people to go there. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So with, and not just dealing with the grief of losing your baby, it's the grief of losing this whole life that you had suddenly planned for the last, you know, 12 weeks or however many weeks you were when it happened. And I think that's the worst part. Is it suddenly you don't know where you stand anymore? And I feel like in that moment I changed as a person. Yes. And it's so strange. It's so strange and it was probably the same like when my daughter now was born. I also changed in that moment too. Yeah. So it's just a really weird juxtaposition. Yeah. And it is. And it's not maybe something when you're right in it, it might be strange to hear in itself. But it is a profound moment in your life. So yeah. But you stay with you forever. Forever. Forever. And even though you know we have our beautiful rainbow daughter. And I couldn't imagine not having her now. Yeah. That doesn't diminish the lot's we had before. Yeah. And I want to talk to you about that as well because I follow your story and I know. And I think it's beautiful. We've got this element of hope. You've got Senna now and she's gorgeous and this beautiful chubby little baby that just when you get the shares on Instagram when you know what someone's been through you just look at it and you just have someone's joy. Yeah. But what about that in between moment of picking yourself up when you've had miscarriages? Yeah. And you know that you really do want to have a baby in your arms. You want to build a family. You've got that vision. Yeah. How do you go again? I remember like after our first one, it made me realize, okay, I do really want a baby. I really want to start a family. Not that I wasn't keen before, but we were kind of like, should we shouldn't we let's just try and have fun and whatnot. But then I was like, okay, no, I want this life that I've envisioned for myself suddenly. So I just, we jumped straight back in as soon as we could. I had a DNC so we, because it had been about three weeks and my body just wasn't naturally doing it. So went with that option. And so we started trying straight away. Very luckily got pregnant again the next month or like after we could try. And I just was so nervous. Every ultrasound, I hated it. To this day, I hate ultrasounds. And I, sorry, Dr. Dre, but I hate your ultrasound. Every time I went in there, I was like, I hate this room so much. And we were in that room so many times. And then unfortunately, it was like a week after I told my mom, I finally felt confident to tell her the second time. And a week after we lost the baby, this our second baby. And I just thought, how am I going to ever feel confident to tell her the truth? to try again knowing that this might happen again. - Yeah. - And we had so many tests done, and everything came back negative. There was no rhyme or reason to it, which made it worse. - Yes. - I feel like, well, my body's just betrayed me. And I don't understand why this has happened. There's no closure. And I remember, I think it's on my Instagram stories, so I'm just sitting in the car. - Yeah, these are on the one. And I just thought, how am I gonna get the confidence to start again and try again and go through all the first trimester of pregnancy again to not have anything at the end. So pregnancy is such a hard toll on your body. And that first trimester for a lot of women sucks. So I've now gone through that twice with no reward at the end. So it's not just the emotional toll of that, but the physical toll as well. I'm having to go through these things and have another DNC. So it was just, it took a lot of courage to go, okay, I think I wanna try again. - So much courage. - Yeah, so we took a break. We talked things through, and finally I got to a place where I thought, maybe we should try again. And then I just was a mess. The entire first trimester, specifically the entire first trimester. And just thinking back of where my head was was so bad. I was in my head, the space was not good. And I remember Dr. Drew saying to me, you need to see a counselor talk to someone, work through this because it will come back to you on your next pregnancy. And he was right. He really was. And I'm telling you now, up until this day, they affect me. Everything has affected who I am as a person, how I am as a mother. It stays with you forever. And I know that my other friends who've also had miscarriages, their parenting is very different to the people who haven't. Not that it's a bad thing or a good thing, it's just different. - Yeah. - And you know, some people who look in and go, oh, you're a helicopter mom or you're a helicopter parent. And it's like, no, I love my child. I will do anything to protect that child. I went through a lot to get this child. So I will fight. - Yes. - Yes. - No, no. - I'm not going to be glad to have to. - Yeah. - But yeah, it took a lot of courage to try again. And I remember it. It didn't affect me a lot. And obviously, pink elephants helped so much. I remember I was lost. I wanted to talk to someone. It was like midnight. I didn't know who to talk to. I didn't want to put the burden on my friends or my husband who was also struggling as well and had no one to talk to. I think it's the husbands and the partners do get - Less. - Left behind a bit there, especially you know, through all of pregnancy actually. - Yeah. - No, they're trying to hold space and support their partner and their loved one. - Yeah, he was very strong. - He was managing their own grief and fears and anxieties and trying to make sure your okay and it's a really messy hard thing to do. And the grief is often minimized and non-acknowledged. - Yes, definitely. And I always tried to include him, but also I think that he just didn't want to think about it either. And he didn't want to keep bringing it up. And to me, I just couldn't stop thinking about it. So he's, his, what's all that I'm looking for? But he's coping mechanism. Like he's coping method was to brush it off. - It's not brushing off, but to just not talk about it. - It's, there's different types of grievous. So the listeners as well, we often hear this and it can be a sticking point, right? Because you feel like your partner's not grieving. - Yeah. - And sometimes that can be hurtful to you because you are hurting so much. But what it actually is is you've got intuitive grievous and you've got instrumental grievous. - Oh, okay. - And instrumental grievous are people that do and try and fix things and move forward in changing things. - Yes. - And I'm that and that's why pink elephants exist. And then you have the intuitive grievous who might more outwardly, emotionally display the grief. And often what you find, their couples have very different grievous tales and they also can vary. You might be one, one hour, then the next hour I can put you different. And as the grief kind of changes away from the immediacy of those first few weeks, you can also change. Yeah, and the way that you evolve and grow around grief. So it's really interesting that when we unpack that, right? It's not your partner or you. - Yes. - It's natural. But again, that speaks to miscarriage. We're given so little education about it. And like we said about the sisterhood not telling you what had happened as well. Because we haven't talked about it. Then what we've lost in a way is that ability to support each other through it and normalize different reactions and say, "Hey, my partner behaved this way." And I thought he wasn't grieving too. And actually what I learned, that was his coping mechanism. - Yes. - But see, that's what I found on pink elephants. Because it was a Facebook group with so many of us in the club, which is awful, but so supportive. And you could say, "Hey, I'm feeling this." And everyone could then say, "I'm feeling this too. This is normal." Or, you know, "Here's some advice for this." Or again, you know, "My partner did this and this is this." So it was really helpful in that sense. But I mean, I could do that at one o'clock in the morning when I was up awake, 'cause that's all I could think about. And you were at the only other person I'll put one in the morning. - Yes, there would have been a lot of women in that group at that point. - Yeah. And I mean, you had a pregnancy after loss page as well. So, you know, I got close to a few people who were pregnant at the same time as me going through the same things. And, you know, unfortunately, if they have another loss, then, you know, we could help grieve with them. And it just became this like real sisterhood. - Yeah. - You create your own connections from the group, right? You can connect with us that you might. It's almost like, we say this a lot, but when you leave hospital with a baby in your arms, you get a mom's group. - Yeah. - And you get that given to you by the health system, they set you up with support. - Yeah. - But yeah, we leave a baby with, leave hospitals already with no baby in our arms. - Yeah. - And we're left as a whole group. So that when we find something, as pink elephants online support, it is that for us. It's okay, it's all the people that I don't have to pretend. I don't have to wear that brave face for. - Yes, oh my gosh, yes. How did that look for you, that brave face? Like what you were telling people outwardly versus what you were actually? How did that present in your world? - I think it depends on who I was talking to. So I know that some people didn't understand, so I just didn't bring it up. And other people who do understand, you know, my two of my friends who had like close friends who also had miscarriages, they understood. But it's just, it's a hard journey and everything triggers you. So just a few was like, we went away with our friend group. And seeing everyone with their babies. And it was fresh. Like we just had our second miscarriage. And I remember thinking like, why am I here? This is awful. But like also I had so much fun and I love my friends. But just seeing them with their babies and cuddling them and it makes me want to cry. - Yeah. - And I did that. - 'Cause I got that feeling. - Yeah, and I had it, I had like a tear in my eye. And I was trying so hard. And I didn't want to be that person at the party that cries. - Yeah, you don't want to be like, - And everyone's like, everyone's like, "Oh, Maddie's crying again, "'cause she had a baby die." Or, you know, you just didn't want to be that person. - Yeah. - And I know my friends wouldn't be like that, but you feel like that. - You feel like that. And I remember my friend who had the multiple miscarriages. She looked me in the eye and she's like, "You like it?" And I was like, it is what it is, you know? So in that moment, we had that moment of solidarity and she knew exactly what I was thinking, 'cause she'd been there. And like, she is too beautiful kids now. And it was just that moment of like, I understand that really helped me. Or, I think, 'cause I'm a singer. Mother's Day, I decided to do a gig on Mother's Day, which was the worst possible thing I could have done. I think I spent most of the time just holding back tears. And I remember crying, I was saying a Valerie or something. And I just tears running down my face. Just, and I was like, I had to have a brave face. I was at work. Looking at everyone on Mother's Day with their mother, with their babies and mums. And I thought, this is stupid. Why did I do this? Thinking that it would take my mind off it, but it put me directly back, you know, into that grief again. So, thinking that you have to go back to work with a brave face, because I don't think they recognize, or I think the government has just recognized. - Yeah. - So we don't have leave. So, the elephant's lobbied for an amendment to the Fair Work Act. - Yeah. - And what that means is that anyone that has a miscarriage is entitled to two days paid bereavement leave and the partners too. - Two days. - It's not enough. It's not about the days. For us, the reason we lobbied for that was the validation aspects that it puts miscarriage in line with any other type of bereavement. So, previously it was sick leave. And as you'll know, it's not like you've broken your arm. You don't have to flew. My baby died. I should get bereavement leave. So, it brings it into line, but what we're now seeing, which is really positive, is workplaces are actually extending that amount of leave. - It's amazing. - And they're offering a lot longer, like anything from five days, right through to 12 weeks, we've heard of so far, which is, yeah. - Wow. - Amazing, QBE offer 12 weeks. - That's amazing. - And I think that we're starting to wake up to this as a society and starting just gradually now to understand the depth of the trauma that we go through. - Yeah. - And I use that word intentionally. - Yes, trauma. It is, it's trauma. I mean, I know that I have PTSD in ultrasound rooms from ultrasound room, like the feeling that I get even thinking about going into an ultrasound, it's awful. And I would not wish this on anybody. And up until the, I mean, I say this, like up until the day my daughter was born, I didn't believe it was gonna happen. And even when she was in my arms, I remember saying, oh my gosh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drop her. Can you please remove her? I'm terrified. I just remember being terrified and it was meant to be the most beautiful, sorry. - No, I get it because I've been there. - Yeah, it's meant to be the most beautiful day of your life. - I mean, you've got the shadow of other things that are still playing through the mind and trying to push. - And it's not even intentionally that the shadow, there's that, that you know the shadow's there. Exactly. And I just remember thinking, like, what's wrong with me? Why am I not having this beautiful moment? And I had a, I had a maternal assisted seizure, so I helped pull her, sorry. - No, I love it. I know. I helped pull her out because I thought that that would help me realize that she's real. She's here. We finally have her, you know. And it just, it didn't. - I haven't shared this publicly, but when my last baby was born Rosie, my first word to her, she's really real. She's really real. - Yeah. - Just kept saying she's really real. - Yeah. - And I was shaking and I was messy. - Because up until that point, she was not real because I couldn't allow my heart to fall in love with the risk of another loss. - Yes, yeah. And I had the shaking thing too. I couldn't stop shaking and I thought, is this a side effect of the epidural, what if it's spinal block or whatever? - I think it is as well, but I also think there's the emotional aspect of it. - Yes. But I just remember feeling terrified. That's what I felt was terrified. And I remember getting back to the room and I was like, there's something wrong with me emotionally. And you know what? I look at photos and videos from that time. And it's scary because I look happy and I look okay. And I remember my brain was not okay. - Yeah. - Yeah, you deserve so much more. It's, there's a lot to unpack. - Yeah. - And then we get to that point with a baby in our arms and everyone's just like, okay. - Are you fine now? - Yeah. - Yeah. - People don't talk about it, but it's happening behind closed doors, hidden behind smiling faces. There are so many people suffering in silence right now. Unable to access the support that they need and deserve. Simply because they don't even know that there is support available. The pink elephant's community is made up of people from all over Australia. Some come from the big smoke, others from the bush. Some of us have heaps of friends and family around. Others have numb. Some have lost babies at five weeks. Some had ectopic pregnancies. Some had multiple ultrasounds. Others only ever saw the two red lines on a positive pregnancy test. But we all have something in common. We have all lost a baby. We are all bereaved parents. There are estimated to be over 100,000 of us across Australia every single year. Please help us connect with these people to give them the support that they deserve. No one should have to lose a baby and be left on their own to navigate their grief. Help pink elephants support more bereaved parents. Visit pinkelephants.org.au And I think that that's really important to share and normalise and we refer to organisations such as Gidgett Foundation and Panda because we know that when we've gone through such a traumatic experience to have a baby in our arms, we are at higher risk of poor mental health outcomes, particularly when we get the baby. And so it's really important to know that and to watch out for those signs. And that's where you need to know where to go. And we'll link to those in the show notes. Yes, definitely. I think that comes to this continuity of care that needs to happen in the health system as well and acknowledgement of our losses. And you had an amazing obstetrician, Dr. Drew, who referred you said, "Get some counseling, get some support." Yeah, he was incredible. No, everyone gets that. Yeah. They'll get minimised. They're like, "Why are you this nervous? You had a miscarriage, it's okay. You're now 20 weeks, you should be fine." All right. That's a thing. My friend, she lost her baby at 24 weeks. One was still born and all those sort of things. And you just, you never felt safe. No. Not once. And I remember this one time. I think I was about, I must have been about maybe 18 weeks pregnant and I hadn't felt her move yet. So it was all that. Yeah, it felt building up. Yeah, so all the moving, I felt what I thought might have been her, it could have been more like 16 weeks maybe, but I was, I would just woke up a mess and I'd convinced myself that she disappeared from my stomach. Not that she had died, but that she was no longer there. Yeah. And that's not healthy. It's not possible. It's not physically possible for her to just disappear. And I remember, and I was a mess and I was inconsolably crying. And my husband was just like, "What is, that's not a thing, like that can't happen." And he's like, "Let's just go to the hospital, let's get it done." Like go and get to the ultrasound and just double check there, everything's okay to put your mind at ease. And I remember thinking, "I don't want to, I don't want to know." I don't want to face it if that is real. Like if we've had another miscarriage, I don't want to know about it. Oh my God. I can't. I can't physically cope with that right now. So I also didn't, I just didn't want to know, but I'd also convinced myself that she wasn't there anymore. Yeah. It was scary. Yeah. And you're not alone. I see that one play out in our power. The pregnancy after loss online group that you referred to earlier. It's common. Very common. We all do it to ourselves, right? Yeah. I can speak for it personally, but I see it within our community as well. Well, that it's just, it's such a complex journey to go through pregnancy after loss. And again, it's minimized so much because we think it's the happy tick box. Okay, well now the pregnant past 12 weeks. Oh, we're 14 weeks, it's fine. Oh, yeah. And it's not that case at all. It felt more like an uphill battle. Like, okay, we've gone past this obstacle course now. And then your life is an athlete with the baby in your arms, but you're exhausted mentally because you've gone through so much to get to this point. Literally. Yeah. That's exhausted mentally every, and it got better when I could feel her. I started to feel a bit more hopeful, but then it was so every scam was nerve-wracking. Every, and then what's worse was like Drew was really quick at finding the heartbeat. Yeah. It was what we were going through, but every other ultrasound we went to. The first thing I wanted to know was, is there a heartbeat issue okay? And that would be the first thing out of my mouth, is she okay? Is she alive? Is she alive? Is she okay? And I think that was the first thing I said in the Cesarean too, 'cause is she alive? Yes, she okay. And it is that as well. And now we've just kind of gone through in the last couple years, the guidelines for sonography have changed on how they deliver pregnancy loss news, but also subsequent pregnancies and managed within those guidelines. And they talk of things like ensuring that women are told there's a heartbeat as soon as possible. Good. And I love that, that they're in the guidelines, but then I go, how are we making sure this has happened in practice every day? Yes. Because I'm still here in stories like yours every day, where that isn't the case. No. Where the silent, I hate it when that silent. Tell me she's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm stirring up at the ceiling, and I can't look at anything else. And I'm a frozen deer in headlights right now. Yes, exactly. You know, I'm a final fight. Gripping my husband's like a vise every single time. Yeah, no. I guess we can hear a lot of different themes running through your story. I really like the bit about the sisterhood and if you'd have been told before, maybe how that would have made you feel going into this. I guess it would have made you prepared. I don't want to say that you should be thinking about miscarried to win your pregnant, but just to have it in the back of your mind that like, oh, my mom had two miscarriages. And you know, my sister-in-law, or like my mother-in-law said, oh, we didn't even know that Kelly had two miscarriages. She didn't tell us. And I remember that hurt me because I was like, oh, well, should I not be telling you? Yes. And there it goes again. But she, that wasn't her intention, obviously. But that, to me, I was like, oh, should I stay silent? And then I thought, no, I don't want to stay silent about this. Because one, my baby's deserved to be known about. Mm-hmm. You know, and secondly, everyone can benefit from hearing about this. Yes. You know, whether you're young or old or taking the stigma away and taking the questions away, winning and I'm gonna have to go. have a baby. Oh, you've just been married. So you're going to start trying like all these sort of things when you have another baby or yeah, it should be getting there. Right. Yes. Yeah, getting there now. All sorts of things. It's no one's business. If anyone's listening to this, can we stop those questions? Yes. It's not okay to ask. Yeah. So a couple of months I've gone by and I would answer and say, Oh, no, I have to, I've had two, but they're not living or I've had two miscarriages. And that would, I mean, it's a bit of a bit, it seemed a bit bitchy to do. But also I just wanted them to be like, Oh, okay, well, maybe I won't answer that question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've done that too. Like, yeah. But it's also then about, it's really hard to be the person that's grieving and in the experience and education, educating people at the same time. Exactly. It's really difficult. We know this again. I've said this before, but it's the honest on victims almost and we're not victims, but it's that whole thing that we see. We domestic violence don't ask them to kind of be the ones to fix it. Yeah. But that's what it feels like with miscarriage. It feels like we are managing everyone's reactions as well as managing our own grief. Yeah. It's not good enough. Yeah. Yeah. That's not fair. We don't have the time. We don't have the, we're not able to have the capacity to just be in our own feelings and grieve. You know, with the work two days, we have to get back to work again. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that as well, what are your thoughts around that kind of perceptions around timelines and grief and miscarriage? I mean, even up until my daughter was born even now, it's still, you know, I'm still crying at the thought of it. Like the thought of going into an older sound now, the thought of me trying for another baby right now. No, thank you. Yeah. I don't want to go through that again, even though we have one successful baby or one living baby, I still don't want to go through that just in case. Yeah. I'm sure I will eventually. But at the moment, it's, it's, it's fresh. You know, two years ago and it's still fresh. Yeah. And we know many women and it can be decades ago and it's still part of them today. Yeah. And that's not to scare anyone in any way, but it's almost to kind of reduce that minimization of it. Yeah. From a, like an online perspective, because I posted about it that day. And I think in hindsight, if I had awaited until the next day, I wouldn't have posted. So I'm actually glad that I just ripped the bandaid off and posted about it. But still to this day, I get people saying, you know, I'm, what did you do differently? I'm going through the same thing as you. Thank you so much for talking about this. Thank you for making me feel normal. You know, when I was talking about trying again, I feel like this. Thank you so much for bringing it up. But then also you get the, the amount of time someone said to me, I'm so sorry. The words, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Every DM I was opening up, Maddie, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This has happened to you. I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm so, and I started to hate the words. I'm so sorry. You don't want people to feel sorry for you, right? That almost feels like sympathy, not empathy, even though we tell people to say I'm sorry. I hear what you're saying there. It's too much. You know, I mean, I don't know what you would say instead of them. But I remember thinking like if one person, one more person says, I'm so sorry to me. I'm, I'm going to crack it. That started to become traumatic in itself. And even to this day when I hear someone say I'm so sorry, those, it brings like a flood of emotion back over it kind of heightens my heart rate a little bit, which is a symptom of PTSD. And I'm not a counsellor. So I'm not diagnosing that in any way. But I know it is one. Yeah. It is that it's hard though, right? But I think that's again, you're a person of influence. Lots of people have access to your content that you put online. And it can be seen as brave and courageous to share it. But the boundaries then become blurred of words, your privacy. Yes. And like, how do you manage that? It's, I'm glad that I did it. And I'm glad that I've done it to help people. And also why is it brave when I'm just posting about my life? You know, that that shouldn't be brave to come out like it was this big dirty secret. It shouldn't be. It wasn't a big dirty secret. They were my children, you know, whether they are alive or not. They're part of your family. Exactly. So what it's not brave of me to come out and talk about it. This is just me telling you what is going on in my life exactly like I've just found this beautiful dress and you should look at it. Yeah. You know, to me, that's not, yeah. I love that great frame. That's really meaningful. Well, it's true. Like, it's not, it shouldn't be hidden away. It shouldn't be a secret. Again, what you said before, like it ties into the two-boo subjects of periods and blood and all this sort of thing. And it just annoys me that we keep it inside so that other people feel comfortable. Yeah. So we have to feel uncomfortable to make others feel comfortable when it should just be normalized. And no one needs to actually be uncomfortable. And also, like, I don't know about you, but for me, it was like, you can't upset me anymore than I'm already upset. So if I cry, yeah, it's not the end of the world because I've been all like crying anyway. Right. So you have to say anything to me right now. I'm probably more numb right now because of yeah, the armor that you were. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I'm glad that I talked about it because it does help so many people, but also it, it, yeah, it does have an emotional toll. Yeah, it does. And I can see, I guess moving now, like, looking forward. So part of the miscarriage rebellion is that we are intentionally telling your story. Yes. And there's a point to tell that story because we don't want people to feel sorry for us. We're not aiming for sympathy. Yep. We are looking to invoke empathy, which fosters more meaningful understanding of what we actually really, truly go through when our babies died to miscarriage. Yeah. But it is a system as a whole. We want to insight action. We want to see change because for too long, we've talked about it, this silence, shame, stigma and disenfranchised grief. So I guess for you, if there was one part of your experience that you could change or something, you can change for the future for other women, what would that be? I think that, you know, having more access to support, like, you know, pregnancy with your mom's groups, if you have a miscarriage or it's still birth, pregnancy loss, you need to have that support group recommended to you by your, your obstetrician or your midwife. I think that's definite. I think that workplaces, you need longer leave. Two days is not even enough for the physical side. Let alone the mental aspects. Talk about it. Openly, talk about it. I think so you yourself don't sweep it under the rug as well. Because that's a big one. Like Dr. Drew said, get some counseling, otherwise it will affect you, whether you like it or not. So my friend, she just threw herself into work and she just didn't let herself process it. And you know, it's coming out in different ways and it's not healthy. And you've got to give your brain and your body time to process it. Not even to heal because you never fully heal, but just process what has happened. I remember it took me a long time to even realize what had happened. Yeah. And it's not about trying to heal. To come to terms with it. Yes. It's acceptance. Acceptance. Exactly. And acceptance of a new version of you because of what has happened to you. grief changes you. Yeah. It does. And it can be hard to hear when you're in it. Yeah. But grief can change you in a way that can be a beautiful change. And that's not minimizing and finding a silver line in. We don't believe in that rubbish. No, not all that is. No. But it can open us up to be more empathetic. That was just about the common room. It makes you more empathetic. Yeah. Yeah. I was so black and white before all of this. I think they're just talking about it. Be open about it. Let the world know because your baby is deserved that. And secondly, you deserve that. You don't deserve to suffer in silence. Yeah. Whether it be your parents or you don't have to tell Instagram, you don't have to tell the whole world, but just be open about in a conversation with your friends and family and where feels natural and right for you. For you. Exactly. My change as well. Right. Yeah. One week, it's good. And then another week, you might not feel like wanting to talk about it, which is fine too. Yeah. But you should whether it be a counselor in a professional setting or your friends and family. Yeah. Or pink elephants. That's a good one. Yeah. Because it's full of other people who've got it. That's all right. Exactly. We don't have to worry about finding someone who understands. Yeah. No. Yeah. Can you remember even my husband saying like, you just don't understand unless you go through it. Yeah. It's hard, right? Because you don't. Because we've not talked about it enough. And that's what part of this is is that let's make everyone understand. So that we don't have to just find those with lived experience to support us. Yeah. So why do we have to go looking for it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Amazing. Thank you. Today's episode may have brought up some feelings for you that you need to some support around, that's totally okay. Head to pinkelephants.org.au to find access to our circle of support, your safe space, where you can be met with empathy and understanding throughout all of your experiences of early pregnancy loss. We're here for you. You are not alone. - If you enjoyed listening to the Ms. Karajrabellian, please help us by leaving a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. The Ms. Karajrabellian is a pinkelephants podcast, produced by our friends at Three-Pay Studio.