Episode 11 "Losing Mom" A discussion with Dr Fran about Her Book

Today, we want to continue the conversation around a child's perspective when facing a terminal illness of a parent. Our last episode, we spoke with Jenny McClintock, an educator and a child of a cancer patient. Today, we're going to take a slightly different turn and talk with our own beloved Dr. Fran, who wrote a memoir-style book, looking at the terminal illness of a mother through the eyes of her child. It's a fascinating insight into what kids are thinking and feeling when faced with the reality of losing a parent. If you are a parent or an adult child, I think you will find this very helpful. I will listen. Welcome to Caregiver Compendent, a guide for the family caregivers of cancer patients. My name is John Rosano. I became the caregiver for my wife, Mary, when she was diagnosed with a rare cancer in 2014. I'd like to introduce my friend and colleague, Dr. Fran Baumgarten, clinical psychologist, caregiver and cancer survivor. We are part of a team that created a support group for family caregivers to provide resources, information and encouragement. Now we've created this podcast to provide these resources with greater accessibility. We're not medical professionals, we cannot give you clinical advice or suggestions, those are best directed to your health care practitioner. But we are here to offer a friendly voice, the benefit of our experience, and remind you there is a path forward through their caregiving journey. We are your caregiver companions. Let us join with you on your journey. Welcome back everybody to another episode of Caregiver Compendent, a guide for the family caregivers of cancer patients. This is John. I'm here with my good friend, Dr. Fran, Fran, how are you today? I'm doing great, John, how are you doing? I'm very well, thank you. So today we have a super special guest on, it's going to be our one and only, Dr. Fran herself who is going to talk about a project that she's done and a very interesting book that she's written called "Losing Mom, a Family's Journey of Transition, Hope and Perseverance." It's a fascinating book, it's a very accessible, easy read, I really recommend it for families that are dealing with, of course, cancer, but really any sort of chronic illness where there's loss of a loved one. So Fran, "Losing Mom," well I think it would be good first for the audience to have a little bit of a background on what the story itself and what the plot line is, so to speak. So why don't you give us a little background on what the book is about? Let me kind of start at the beginning. So I was always doing cancer counseling for a while as a specialty, I had been a psychologist before that, and part of what I got into was helping a support group for kids whose parents had cancer or had died of cancer. So it was a phenomenal support group, it was a really a peer run with us professionals helping. So we would meet twice a month and it didn't matter if the kids parent had cancer or had died of cancer. And so I got to sit with these kids for over five years and listen to them about what was going on with them, how they were dealing with it, and what we would do is it was a phenomenal group. We did a therapeutic game that we would play where the kids could share their emotions. One of them was like this M&M game, so we have to share it, you got M&Ms in your coffin. I mean, just really things that the kids like and the kids would come and open up. So we met at a hotel and they would run in. They couldn't wait to get it, they were so excited to be there. And then we'd sit in the circle and we'd play this game and everybody would talk about what had happened since the last time we saw them. And then we would just play. We would do art, we would play, we would have a whole bunch of fun, we'd have snacks, I mean, that's it. What was sort of the age group, the age range of the kids? So we had two separate groups. So we had, there was a really young group that started at five. And then we had a group that was older, like, you know, junior high and high school. So we had two different groups running. Yeah. So yeah, and of course, the topics were a little bit different than each group. But that's kind of how, you know, how things went. Yeah. So that's where it happened. And then I started seeing, in my practice, a lot of families, because of course you're there, you're meeting the parents and everything. And then they would come. So at some point, just I think shortly maybe before COVID, maybe about five or 10 years before COVID, I, I felt like the parents, nobody kind of understood what these kids were going through. So a parent would die and the kids looked fine and everybody thought the kids would find and they weren't. And because my practice grew in such a way, I was getting referrals from all ages. So I was getting young adults, getting families with young adults coming. And or the parents, you know, the adults that I was seeing with cancer would bring their kids in to meet me before they died and some of them were young adults. And so I had this vast range of young people. I was seeing that nobody really knew what they were going through. So I just sat down one day and I said, I really need to write a book for adults to experience what these, what these kids and young people were experiencing. I didn't want just a self-help book. Okay, if this is what happens, this is what the kids of the different ages, I wanted everybody to go on a journey with these kids and to feel what they were feeling and to kind of understand that at a very visceral level. And so that's why I really did this book. I mean, I really wanted to give voice to these young people and to educate the people around them and for them to see that it's just because it starts at whatever age it starts, it doesn't end at that age. It goes on and it morphs into different things. Right. Right. Yeah. So the story is basically about a young girl, Stella, who's eight years old when her mom gets diagnosed with cancer and how her siblings, you know, she's got four siblings and they age from age 15 to 25, how they all deal with this. There's no father in the picture. And so how do they deal with this mother's illness and what, and I put in things at different ages for her. So as an eight-year-old, what eight-year-olds do is they have very magical thinking. And so she thinks that she can kind of save her mom in this magical, mystical way. And so being like the super person, right? And then the story just goes on as she at different ages, right, she finds that she's interviewing her family members and kind of kind of working her way through this to see how everybody deals with things. And so I tried specifically during the time that mom was ill to put in things that families could do to be helpful. So the scenes are kind of like lessons, right? So I'm not on how much you want me to talk about that or... Well, I was going to say, I think one of the things that makes the book very poignant and helpful is it's written as a memoir style. So you are reading this through the eyes of Stella and it's the eight-year-old Stella. And it's the eleven-year-old Stella, then it's the thirteen-year-old Stella. So you're inside her head, and you're not, you know, you're not some like a third person that's observing. You're inside her head and you're getting a sense of what she's going through and what she thinks and how she's processing, you know, the reality that she's faced with. And then the other thing that I think was really cool is then there's sort of this movement in time, which is like, you know, it's a great literary tool and device, right? Right. And now it's like, I don't know, when is she maybe twenty? She's like college age. She's twenty-two or something and she's going back and reading, you know, what she wrote as an eight-year-old. So now you have the young adult who has lived through it and is now sort of is looking at it in the rear-view mirror, you know, that experience, but able to reread and see what she was thinking and feeling and dealing with real time as a young person. So it really, for the reader, it really gives you like almost like a 360 degree perspective on, you know, on what she in particular, but the other siblings, the other siblings as well. Yeah. And her insight is she watches them and understands at their ages why they did the things they did or how they did them. And she's kind of the keeper of the secret in the family, which the kids are. Right. I mean, she knows what Paul's doing at night when he co-, you know, walks into his mother's room. Nobody else knows. Right. I mean, she's watching and recording all of this. And that's what the kids actually do. They do watch and record it all. So it's interesting how she's the keeper almost of all the information. That is interesting. You know, I remember my parents used to say, you know, the walls have ears, right? You know, be careful what you say because the kids are listening. So it is. So children really are. They're very observant. And they see and pick up, they're probably almost like a vibe, you know, that the vibrations in the house, you know, that they can pick up as well. It's not just the, you know, the five obvious senses. Right. Yeah. They have an almost an intuitive sense of what is what's happening. So let me ask you, so the characters that you developed were, were they sort of based on the kids that were coming to the sessions and you know, you kind of built like a composite based on their experiences and things. Yeah. And, you know, and I have a little bit of a sense of humor, which always helps in my work. Right. So I named all the characters. They have to movie stars. That's right. Right. Old-fashioned movie stars. I mean, today people wouldn't maybe know who they are, but anybody, older is going to know. Because, you know, I have mom say, well, we knew you had enough smarts, but you need a little little bit more of that. You know, we had a little bit more of that to do, you know, and we had a little bit more of that and we had a little bit more of that to do. And, you know, we had a little bit more of that to do, you know, we had a little bit more of that to do, you know, we had a little bit more of that to do, you know, we had a little bit more of that to do. And, you know, you cared for your mom, you were a cancer patient and you had young kids at the time. Obviously, you know, professionally, this is the work that you do. So was the storytelling in here? Was there any, was a part of it like kind of a catharsis for you, you know, in kind of dealing with, you know, or surfacing, you know, some of those things that you were dealing with, you know, in the various times that you dealt with illness, either as a patient or as a caregiver or as a mom? Yeah, not really. I mean, it was, it was really much more for me wanting to give information. It was much more that I sat with all this information. I was sitting knowing all of this and feeling like it wasn't out there in a way that was accessible to anybody, you know. I mean, and that was, that was much more, you know, what I really felt. And I knew some things that would help like mom as a letter. I knew how important that was to be able to leave a letter for the kids so that, you know, this issue that you're always parenting, even if you're not there. Yeah. And how the kids would, you know, the parents that I could get to write letters as difficult as that was, how those kids would read those letters and hold them. And even then, as adults, when they find them, what that meant to have their parents' words in their head. And so, you know, and especially at times when you're troubled, like if you're a teenager and the parent you're living with, you're unhappy with, you have a letter to go to. Your other parent is always there. So, you know, I, I, the mom's letter was very, very important. And I think, and like you said, the timeline was very important too. So, you know, you see Stella go into this kind of withdrawal after her mom dies, which doesn't understand the celebration after the funeral. And then she goes into this withdrawal and it takes her almost two years to kind of really feel like herself again. You know, so I think, and like you said, just developmentally over the time, kind of understanding all of the kids at different ages, you know, they never stopped missing this woman. I mean, she, they always missed her, but also how they kind of hovered together to kind of raise this little girl that was in this household. Yeah, which is, which is really interesting. And I, and I wondered about that because there's a significant age difference. You've got the sort of the four older ones that are more or less grouped together. You know, maybe there's what maybe like a 10 year spread over four kids and then there's a big jump to Stella. So it's almost like they, they become surrogate. In fact, I think Rosalind, the oldest sister, you know Elizabeth Elizabeth becomes the surrogate parent. Yeah, and she became the caregiver. Yes. I mean, you see how the kids, what the kids had to do. So William was the one that took her to the doctor visits. He had to become the caregiver in that way. And Rosalind and Elizabeth, for the most part, took care of mom. I made sure her room was nice. They always made sure there was flowers in it. I mean, you know, in Rosalind too. I mean, they were cooking and they would take care of the house and each taking care of Stella in a different way. So you, you saw the caregiving that these young adults had to. And I can tell you how many young adults I saw in my practice that left medical school, that left law school to come home and care for a parent. And was that always able to return? I mean, that was one of the biggest things with young adults was, don't worry. Your school will be there. Your job will be there. Because when there isn't another adult to care for your parent, you end up being the one that does it. Right. And so this was not a not an unusual situation to see young adults not go anywhere and stay home. So make sure that the parent and the household and the other children kind of are okay. Right. Right. And a place to get support. So, you know, I know we talked about this briefly, but as I read it, my sense was that each of the characters or each of the four older siblings, they sort of, well, I think they processed their grief in their own particular way. Almost like represented the different, I won't say they were represented all the stages of grief, but I definitely felt like they were, they, they, they were living in one, you know, they were kind of stuck in one particular of the phase or the stage, you know. Yeah. You know, you had one who just wanted like stayed away physically, moved away, didn't really, you know, then you had Paul, who was there. But really emotionally dist, it seemed emotionally distant. Like we said, Elizabeth was the, she kind of became the surrogate parent and was very active William, at the end, you know, he. You know, this becomes his life's work. He dedicates himself to research and the medical side of it. So everybody sort of took this experience and dealt and had their own way of dealing with it. Well, you know, William became what so many partners become doing the research, doing the doctor visits, doing all that stuff. Right. And, and as the oldest man in the family, it's not surprising. So he was always into science. But I mean, I second up that way. Yeah. As to, you know, to always be into science and to do that kind of stuff, you know, and Paul at 15 does what a 15 year old does, they just escape. Right. One of the parts of it. Right. So, you know, they just stay away as best as must as they can stay away. Yeah. Because what, you know, they can't tolerate any of that and he's the one that goes in her room at night in Christ. You know, I mean, you know, this is. It was a pretty good snapshot that you've got a parent that's sick or dying and you have anybody in this age group. It's a pretty good snapshot of this is what life is going to look like for them. Yeah. And how their lives are going to be centered and changed around what's going on. Yeah. Like I said before, I think for me, the most important part was the kind of things that people can proactively do to help. So like when she was sick, the way they had her room set up, the way they would go in and try to have a meal with her, even if they sat on the floor. I mean, there were some real proactive things in the book that I felt that parents look at this. They can do this and that's going to make a big difference, you know, just their family meetings. I mean, there are things that you can do that just help because that was the general goal for me was to set this up so that the kids and the young people would get the help that they need and that things they get organized in a way that made sense. Yeah, I mean, I think I think you're the book and the storytelling serves a dual purpose because you do have sort of those practical examples of, you know, here's things to do. Here's how this family dealt, you know, dealt with things and did things. You can certainly take sort of pointers from that, but the perspective, the point of view of through the kids eyes to me was really that was lack of a better term eye opening. Because as you said, kids on, you know, on the surface externally, they look like they're fine, you know, they've processed it. They're dealing with it, but there's a lot, a lot going on inside. So if you are a parent, you know, if you're the surviving parent or an adult who is sort of caring for a child or has some responsibility for a child who's lost a parent, they may look okay on the surface. But there's a lot going on in there and you're the way you set the story up and the point of view that you're giving it, you're allowing us to really see into the mind of those kids and really get an understanding of what they're going through. In the way that they can understand it, like you said, you know, as a child, she's sort of, she's doing magic. She thinks she's got magic powers or something. Yeah, but yeah, I think that is very, very, it's a valuable lesson there, you know, to take away as much as the practical things that you're that are exemplified in, you know, the different things that they did. Well, it's interesting because our talk with Jenny about the crow, you know, you see anybody that knows anything about this experience, you know, the kids suffer silently. You know, and everybody is so busy helping the person that's sick, that they don't really take the time and the kids don't want to be a burden to anybody. So they're the ones that are in their room crying at night, right? And they won't tell anybody. They won't tell and they probably, and maybe in some cases they don't even have the vocabulary to articulate it, right? They know they have these feelings, but they can't really express it. So for some of the little kids, you see them acting out really badly and they're told to behave and nobody understands that what they're seeing is this enormous amount of anxiety. That they can contain. I mean, I had one little girl in the group. And I mean, this, this was, I think, one of the hardest, the hardest ones I've ever had to deal with and she was in the group and her mom died. Her mom had terminal cancer, but she died suddenly. Nobody expected her to die. I mean, we thought she had a lot longer. She had some kind of brain aneurysm in the middle of everything, quite everybody by surprise. And this little girl comes to group. And in one of our sessions, she says she tells us her mom died. And you know, everybody was very, the kids are wonderful with each other, you know, supportive. And she said, I know she wanted to get away from me because I was really bad. Oh, my gosh. Oh, right. Now there's no way to correct this. Mom's gone. Yeah, we can't call mom in. Yeah, the best I got was that I knew her mother because I had been doing groups with them. And I was able to say to her, you're, that's not what your mom ever told me about you. She always said, you were a really good girl and she really loved you. And yeah, you did things that upset her at times, but all kids do. Don't we all, you know, I mean, sure, yeah, yeah, but that's what this kid was going to live with. Wow. Right. Wow. That's the kind of stuff that would come up in groups. Yeah. The ambulance is coming. What it was like. I mean, this was, these kids were dealing with the hardest things that most adults can even deal with. Right. And people don't understand their experiences exactly like ours. And they've got fewer resources than we have as adults to deal with it. And then they're on their own because nobody's even looking at them as if this is part of their life too. Right. Yeah, which was kind of, it's, and you, you, you depicted that with Stella that she was sort of left in the dark. You know, the other kids, the other siblings really didn't share with her that the extent of her mother's illness and, you know, that sort of thing. That she was because you're just a kid. That's probably, you know, how people think, but there's, there's a lot, there's a lot going on in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got to share one little story, not really related, but you mentioned the mama letters. And when my oldest son was born, my dad wrote me a letter about fatherhood. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. And John is now 37 years old, and I, I have that letter. And I will always have it. And, you know, and periodically I pull that out and it's so in his handwriting, which was very, very distinct handwriting. And he talks about, you know, what it was like for him to raising me and I was the youngest of four. There was a big, big age spread between us. And I treasure that letter. And so people that are listening, if you know, those, those are really impactful. So if people are thinking about they should, you know, whether or not to put something in writing for like a future reference. I do it because, you know, the, in your book, those, those letters really explain it really open up the, each of the kids' minds to, to what they're, what their relationship with their mother was. And, you know, and having that, and, you know, for me, just having that for my dad's letter, they're something I'll treasure forever. So. I'm doing a book, a grandpa book, right? I'm doing the grandpa book right now. Yeah, which is. That, that takes, that takes a lot of, you know, because the questions there, the prompts, it's a great book is it's, it prompts you with a question. And I think I'm up to like the high school years. Uh-huh. So some of it you really got to reach, you know, far back in those memory, you know, the memory cells, they're not as good as that used to be. But it's, yeah, but it's, it's really neat to be able to put, to put your stories down and, and what your, what your life was like in your own hand. And, and the fact that it's in your handwriting, I think is really important to, so that's another, you have people are, you know, you probably, you could find those at any bookstore nowadays, but that's, that's a really cool thing to, to a legacy to leave, you know, leave your, your brain. What's that called again that book? This one, this particular one is grandpa, I want to know about your life. But there's, there's different, there's different versions of it, you know, but, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's pretty neat. So the fact that you incorporated the idea of the letter into the story. I think it just, you know, it really speaks to legacy, it speaks to, even though the parent is passed, they've got this, this artifact, this thing that will stay with them forever, that their parents touched and they wrote. Yeah, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot to that, you know, yeah, yeah, well, you know, the impetus to that was not just my work with the kids, but I grew up with my grandmother, she grew up with me, she shared a bedroom with me my whole life. And though a lot of those words were hers, and I often think I don't have anything from her, she was very poor. And so she didn't really have anything, you know, to leave, I mean, not even a piece of jewelry and there was nothing. Yeah, but we had her words. Yeah. And that's the big conversation with me and it was with my mother and it is with my aunt and my cousins, you know, what grandma would say, you know, those are big, that's a big thing in the family. So, you know, when, when I, when I knew that the kids needed this, it was kind of like, well, this is, this is what I grew up hearing, you know, this is, this is the lessons that she tried to kind of teach me growing up, you know. So, but you're right. I mean, I think every parent, even if you're well, should have something. Yeah. Should have something for the kids. Yeah. I mean, it just is, it just makes such a world the difference. Like you said, you treasure it. I mean, it's just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Well, Fred, thanks for sharing the story. Thanks for, thanks for actually writing this book, because I think it really is such a, such a, yeah, a, an eye opener into the mind of, of a young person and a child that's dealing with some pretty, some pretty heavy stuff. So, the name of the book is called losing mom, a family's journey of transition, hope and perseverance. Can we, can we get a link where if people want to get, I think it's still on Amazon. I don't know. I mean, but they certainly could call the center if need be, but. Okay. Yeah. But I think, yeah. Yeah. I'll put an, a link on Amazon. So, people, you know, people can find it that way, because it's, it's really, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great read. And it's, you know, I don't know what's, what, maybe like 150, 200 pages. So, it's, you know, it's a, I mean, I read through it. I mean, I couldn't put it down, but I think within a few days, you know, you can get through it. But there's like, there's just so much wisdom in that that I think it's really, really insightful for people understand what kids are, what kids have to deal with. So, thanks for doing that. Thank you so much, John. Yeah. I mean, I tried even in the introduction and the authors know to kind of really explain things to help wrap things up for people. Yeah. So, you know, because some people that read it said it was very emotional. And I didn't want them to just leave with that. I wanted to be more insightful and stuff. So, but thank you. I appreciate the, the beautiful words. Thank you. Well done. Well done. I think, you know, Hemingway and Faulkner and those guys, they better start looking over their shoulder. Thanks, John. Okay. See you next time. I will see you next time. Thanks for having. Today, we had the chance to hear from our own beloved Dr. Fran. As an author, she was able to create these characters that can help us all in understanding what's going through her child's mind when confronted with a serious illness and loss of a parent. There are some great insights in this small, but powerful book. I encourage everyone who has children and their lives to read it. I want to leave you with the words from author, American author Robert Brault, who said, quote, "A child seldom needs a good talking to as much as a good listening to." See you next time. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in and listening to this episode of Caregiver Companion. We would love to hear from you. You can visit our website www.caregivercompanion.libson.com. That's l-i-b-s-y-n.com. You'll find other episodes and send us your comments and questions. We'll try to answer your questions in future episodes. Thanks again and remember, you are not alone. (upbeat music)