Speaker 1I'm Katie Page, CEO of Harvey Norman. Since 2018, Harvey Norman has been a key partner in the Australians' investigative podcasts such as Sick to Death, Bronwyn, Shandy's Story, The Teacher's Pet and The Night Driver. Harvey Norman are proud sponsors of the Australians' podcast investigations and their award-winning
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Speaker 4The family of Missing Bathurst woman, Janine Vaughan, has made an emotional plea for information into her whereabouts. To be quite blunt with you, the moment this, if he's done it, arrests the man. This stuff has tortured me for a long time. It drives me insane. It breaks my freaking heart.
Speaker 3I've lost count of all the men who have been named as potential murderers during investigations into this case. My conversations with Kylie and her brother Adam, and more recently with Rod Vaughan as he too has burrowed deep into the files for the first time and gone down the rabbit hole, often raise a new name, a new possibility. Here's one of many dozens of exchanges Kylie and I have had about some of these men.
Speaker 5And another informant in Sydney referring to another person close to the park.
Speaker 6I know. Who sits there. That's the description as well of that type of character that would do something like that.
Speaker 3And many names have been raised by listeners of this podcast as a result of their own experiences in and around Bathurst. The number has grown as the podcast has widened. Sometimes informants make furtive approaches then retreat back into the shadows. We are left wondering, what did they know? Did they shut up out of fear or were they just full of it from the outset? It cuts Kylie deeply.
Speaker 7So I'm very pissed off at the moment thinking, how can you just give me a little snippet and then just drop off the face of the earth and not continue through with what you need to tell me?
Speaker 6I've rang him and texted him so many times this morning, even telling him, you know, you're doing my head in. Surely you understand that this is, this is cruel. And I've texted him that this morning. I'm still not getting back to him. My messages or anything. So it's really frustrating because I didn't get out of the conversation what I needed. Like, far out. This is what's so frustrating. And I'm just, this feeling that I have is like, holy shit, I might be close to finding somebody who has done this. Could that be the feeling that I'm having? I do not know, but I just feel sick to my stomach thinking, oh my God, is this going to be some sort of bringing her home type thing?
Speaker 3Many listeners of the podcast have contacted me confidentially through the email address at thenightdriver.com.au as well as via Facebook Messenger with information they believed could be important. You have come forward with often deeply disturbing facts about distant relatives, former partners, workmates, schoolmates, friends, neighbors, even in some cases, your own fathers, each with a troubling backstory justifying why you saw that individual as a possible suspect. And here's the thing, almost all of them are seemingly possible in this complex mosaic. It's one of the frustrating challenges with this case and with Bathurst at a time two decades ago when the culture and the noisy annual car race saw men behaving very badly. We try to run methodically through the possibilities, ruling out the ones that seem most unlikely, focusing on what we know or can show with facts and evidence. Responding to promising leads as they materialize. It would be good to be able to declare that every tip has been rigorously and exhaustively pursued. The reality is that with so many leads, my friend the retired judge Peter Murphy and I have had to effectively triage them into categories with headings of high priority, medium and low. It's put us on the horns of a dilemma. With a number of these individuals, Peter and I can see that there's a lot of room for us to be at least the framework of a circumstantial case, based on character, known behaviors and association with friends of Janine or with Janine. It can put them in the circumstantial frame.
Speaker 8So many theories, so many suspects and trying to draw the threads together has been unbelievably
Speaker 3frustrating. We hear from people who have been close to these men, whether they've been married or in relationships. Children, siblings, and they describe very dangerous, violent characters.
Speaker 8One person in particular I'm thinking about, very violent past, very violent history, particularly towards women. Those sort of people who we've been told about are very worrying, but there's not much we can do. I mean, the law says there's not much we can do, and to be perfectly honest, ethically, how do we. How do we name these people when the best we've got to go on is speculation, however much we're troubled by what we've heard about them?
Speaker 3At the start of this series, you heard Kylie and I talking about one such person. Here's an excerpt from the very first episode.
Speaker 6And she said to me, "If you ask me if I think he's capable of doing this to your sister," she said, "Yes, he is. 100% yes he is. He's a monster. He would shoot at anybody that would come to the property and put his big spotlights on them and make them that scared that they wouldn't be coming back." She said that there's a lot of mineshafts out on the property.
Speaker 9He is a violent, fearless criminal.
Speaker 6I feel sick. To be honest, every time I look at his photo, I think, "Oh, my God, that's disgusting. You're disgusting." I sent the photo to Adam today, this morning, and he's like, "I know that guy. I've seen that guy. I've heard of that guy." He's wracking his brain now thinking that he may have even seen him once when he was out with Janine.
Speaker 9You won't lose anything by pulling back and pursuing that life.
Speaker 6You won't lose anything. I wouldn't go out to the property and look around.
Speaker 9That would be crazy. She said, "I'll take you out there."
Speaker 6I said, "Let's just get this bastard." And she pretty much took back saying, "Let's do that." I would imagine if we got out there and we looked at each other. That would be crazy. Yeah. That would be crazy. She said, "I'll take you out there." I said, "Let's just get this bastard." She said, "Let's just get this bastard out there." I said, "Let's just get this bastard out there." She said, "Let's just get this bastard out there." We got out there and we found something.
Speaker 9Just imagine. I think that he was really starting to poke the bear.
Speaker 3I have since talked to several women who were close to that man being described there. They're still terrified of him, but they want these facts out there.
Speaker 10Yeah, well, to be honest, it was the most traumatic time of my life. I'd rather forget. Yeah. It's taken me a lot of years to get over this. He's a monster. Yeah. He's a human psychopath, a predator. He had a fetish for blonde women who were vulnerable. My time with him was absolute hell. I went through it all. I was hunted in the bush. I was shot at. I was strangled so much I went deaf. He's an animal. He's even thrown me out of cars. To be honest, I can't believe he actually got away with it this long. He was always going in the shopping center where Janine worked. He was walking past her. He was walking to her shop to visit his girlfriend who worked in the same center. Well, yeah, back then I was a bit of a pot smoker and to make a bit of extra cash I sold pot for him. That's how we got started and it just makes me sick to even think about it again. I mean, he was absolutely obsessed with people going near his property or not going near it. You know, it was remote out there. Why did he shoot at people who accidentally went onto the property? Like guys and girls were drunk. He would drive out there at night and he would come up and try to ram their cars off the cliff. It would be pitch fucking black at night and the girls would be screaming and pleading for their lives. It was a big secret. There was something that he's definitely hiding. Yeah, trust me, it's another world out there.
Speaker 3And here's another.
Speaker 11When I first came in contact with him, I was 14. He was selling my older brother marijuana. He had access to lots of different cars. Quite often he'd pull over and try to get you in his car. He'd give you the drugs. And look for the money later. It was his power trip, so you'd have to do something for him. He'd say, "Come and have a session. Come and have marijuana." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And I got in the car. It would have been like probably 60 to 80 kilometers outside Bathurst. And he pulled into the middle of nowhere. He pulled his gun out and he said, "If you don't do what I want you to do, I'll leave you out here." So I did what I thought would save my life and was probably lucky that he drove me home. He was a serial rapist. The cross is a charismatic person.
Speaker 3He's evil. Those are their harrowing words, not their voices. And, of course, Kylie did go out to that property. She did go and look around.
Speaker 6Like, it was just, my God, you know, Google Earth does nothing when you sort of get out there and go, wow. Like the cliff where we were driving, like, you just push someone off there and you've never seen them again. Yeah, look, he has form. He has association. He has means.
Speaker 9And people closest to him say he is absolutely capable of doing this.
Speaker 6This car graveyard out there and looking through the cars and trying to find stuff.
Speaker 9He would have seen Janine in the shopping centre and known of her and it's very likely that he also sold her smoke. Yeah. And it's also likely that he believed that he was a trusted friend of hers.
Speaker 6It was horrendous driving it out there. It was so scary. It was so scary just driving it, just being in the daylight. And you're right on the edge of a cliff.
Speaker 3Well, the man that you dubbed bad boy when we were in Bathurst and making inquiries about him, he was very troubling. An appalling history of. Violence towards women. We're talking about association that we can establish with Janine and her former loved ones. We're also talking about people close to that person who are deeply suspicious of him as a suspect.
Speaker 8There are men who themselves have had checkered pasts, shall we say, have spent time on the wrong side of the law, who have. Expressed real concern about this man and his propensity for violence.
Speaker 3You've also recently spoken to another source. What did you get from that?
Speaker 8What I received from that source was fear. Someone who is to this day very frightened, so much so that we have assured her of her confidence and that her details won't be revealed or alluded to.
Speaker 3And we're also aware that police have, over the years, also looked at him in relation to the disappearance of Jessica Small. Looked very closely at him over that.
Speaker 8Exactly. And may well still be looking at him very closely over that. Can we tie this man to Janine on the night?
Speaker 3No. These experiences and thoughts are with Kylie in her waking hours. Sometimes they even haunt her in her sleep.
Speaker 6I dreamt that I just rang her phone and her phone was at the door. Actually, an answering machine message to me. Like, it was like, I'm still in the old house. I'm with a guy that's beating me. Anyway, and I tried to call her back and she answered the next time. So I actually got to talk to her. So that was just amazing, but just so sad at the same time. And then she's saying, well, you know, I said, look, we're going to come and get you. And she's like, well, who's going to come? And, you know, she was asking about my mom. I'm like, how to tell her that everybody's dead. And it was just horrible. And then she's like, I've got to go. I've got to go. He's coming. So then she's gone back inside, but left me on the phone. And then I could hear this guy just beating the crap out of her. And then he must have just got to the point where, you know, he realized that he'd gone too far. And I think he had tried to strangle her or something. And so then he's ringed the cops and I could hear all of what was going on. And then the cops turned up and I think they just took him away. And then I woke up just in hysterics. It was horrible. So, so horrible. So then Adam decides he's going to ring her phone. So he rang her phone and a woman answered. So she's answered and going, hello. And he goes, hello, who's this? And she's going, well, you ring me, who's this? So it was kind of like back and forth because he was just blown away with someone answering his phone because it's never happened before.
Speaker 3Another suspect is a man who, with his wife, owned a small red car, which they both drove. He had done security work around Bathurst. He grew up in a violent home. He had been accused as a married man of violence against women. He had lived near Janine and almost certainly knew her. He was questioned by police about a series of attempted sexual assaults around the town in the weeks before Janine's disappearance. And then he killed himself. I've talked to Mal Pollard from the Dirty Tav and other reliable sources in Bathurst at length about this man. Because he had also worked at the Dirty Tav. Some who knew him are deeply suspicious.
Speaker 8But as with so many others in this case, you come up against a roadblock. And the roadblock is that whilst the speculation can sound solid and troubling, when you really sit back and say, well, we've got all this troubling information, but what evidence do we have? What solid facts do we have? Linking this. Linking this person to this event which occurred four o'clock in the morning on this particular Friday morning, the answer is none.
Speaker 3And then in fairness to a man who is dead and can no longer defend himself, my view is we should err on the side of decency and caution. All the more so, absolutely. I'm not naming him because he's dead. He cannot defend himself. Have you wondered about whether one of the reasons, this case is unsolved, is because
Speaker 5the perpetrator is dead?
Speaker 7Yes, there's definitely a chance that this person is dead. And yes, certainly.
Speaker 5Mal Pollard has talked to me about how he used to sit outside the metro for sometimes hours at a time in the
Speaker 3red car after he had been fired from the metro.
Speaker 7So she definitely would have seen him there in the course of her three years being out of Bathurst. He has done. some horrible things. And not long after he was questioned and started to become this person of interest, he has passed away.
Speaker 5The unusual feature in that matter as well is that his brother bought Janine's house.
Speaker 7Yes. Yes, he did. Things have been searched at the house. You know, and obviously they haven't found anything. And yes, she probably felt comfortable getting into the car with him. If she didn't know about the sexual assaults and stuff that were going on prior to that. to her disappearance.
Speaker 5Which we don't know if he was even involved in.
Speaker 6That's right. He was just questioned about it.
Speaker 12And he had lost the plot. He worked for us for a little while and we caught him stealing and he used to sit across the road from the pub and it became really weird. Because he had the shits with us, he'd quite often drive and then park across the road and just stare at us. Yeah, it was just really bizarre behaviour. He was another strange character with a reputation for violence. And the right car as well, I suppose. So we always suspected him, even before he committed suicide.
Speaker 3There is a brief and cryptic reference in the final public report of the Police Integrity Commission from 2007. You'll recall that the commission held public hearings in a lengthy and strongly criticised investigation into allegations of police corruption, even murder. The commission uncovered something in the police files which was either overlooked by or not raised with the original police strike force, TOCO, led by the Sydney Homicide Squad Detective, Paul Jacob. This is how it was reported in the commission's final report in 2007.
Speaker 13On 19 December 2001, a woman complained to Bathurst Police about a sexual assault and named the alleged.
Speaker 3But when this information was logged into the computerised police database, it was categorised as intelligence only.
Speaker 13Because the woman was assessed as being, quote, strange and unreliable, unquote. The woman is now deceased. The person named by the woman has now been identified as being another person of interest in the disappearance of Miss Vaughan. He also owned a small red car in December 2001. In early 2006, information linking this person to Miss Vaughan's disappearance was again provided to New South Wales Police Force.
Speaker 3The Police Integrity Commission's report noted that as a result of this further information, in early 2006, another entry was created in the police database known as COPS, or COPS.
Speaker 13But no link made to the Strike Force Toko's investigation.
Speaker 3The brief extract chiding the police, for failing to effectively manage its information, does not disclose the identity of the woman who came forward 12 days after Janine vanished. A woman who named a person. A person who was named again in early 2006. But the woman cannot have been Lynette Borland, who was alive at the time of the Commission's report in 2007 and for several years afterwards. We're taking this helicopter view of police investigations over the past year. over 19 years, but particularly in the early years and it's I think obvious there have been a number of shortcomings some of these have been identified by by us some of them have been apparent from the start to other police and members of the town and I just have this almost certain now view that one of the reasons Brad Hoseman's became such a strong suspect in the community was because he was a copper and that community realized that there were so many things in the police investigation that looked deeply unsatisfactory
Speaker 8I think that that's now beyond doubt 19 years wisdom of hindsight most people would do things differently if they had a second opportunity I think we do have to be troubled by the initial police investigation here the way in which the search was undertaken the approach to the screens identified by a serving police officer losing a knife the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the that the the approach to the screen is identified by a police officer losing a knife the police officer losing a knife the identification of vehicles early on, the pursuit of people who may have had vehicles of one type or another. Look, to be fair, it may have reeked of a very significant lack of proper and experienced resources. The early investigation of this matter leaves an awful lot to be desired.
Speaker 3I've talked to a number of people who have known and worked with Andrew Jones, and you heard how they described him and his antics. Some women have felt intimidated and threatened by him in the workplace. Others saw him blowing up and actually throwing things around the pharmacy, just snapping with temper or stress or whatever. Clearly, there is another side of the story, his side. But if we accept at face value what a number of women have told us, about his behaviour, how do you factor that into this case?
Speaker 8It doesn't make you a killer. Certainly of itself, it doesn't make you a killer. This is a man who, to the best of our knowledge and all of the investigations we've been able to do, has never been convicted of any offence against women. And again, although named as a very strong person of interest by the police, when you look at the cold, hard evidence, there's very little evidence, if any, that links Jones to Janine on the night in question, at that specific place, in that specific car, at that specific time.
Speaker 3It's also a notorious fact that for years, the police in Perth believed the serial killer of young women in that city was an individual who was pursued relentlessly, who was named, shamed, and who, as we now know, had absolutely nothing to do with those murders. Here's a reminder of what happened.
Speaker 14He died an innocent man, but Lance Williams said his life had been ruined. The state's former police commissioner agrees now that he's out of uniform. For years, the public servant was stalked, his home watched, his phone bugged by police hunting a serial killer. Lance Williams had a habit of driving around the streets of Perth's entertainment areas late at night. It was on one of those drives in 1997 that he stumbled onto the police radar. His mistake? Offering a female undercover police officer a lift.
Speaker 3And I've always said all the time that I've had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 14Rob Scott, Seven News.
Speaker 3Because while Lance Williams was under intense scrutiny, the real killer had gone undetected by police for two decades. As Nine News crime editor Simon Boda reported in this clip when the guilty verdict was delivered, a few minutes later, a few months before the release of this episode of The Night Driver.
Speaker 13Because the evidence was inconclusive and could not be proved beyond reasonable doubt. The victims were real people who had families that loved them.
Speaker 8And look at who did those murders. An apparently quiet, unassuming man employed by a telco who was a little athletics coach. Not exactly the picture that springs to mind when you talk about a serial killer of women. You have to be very careful. About pointing fingers, except when there's good solid evidence as a foundation for pointing fingers. So that's one of the great frustrations of this case, I think.
Speaker 3One of the major points in relation to Andrew Jones is that while his number plate, the number plate on his car is very similar to that described by Lynette Borland, who's now deceased. When she was actually shown photographs, of possible suspects, including a photograph of Andrew Jones, she did not identify him as the person she believed was stalking her that night.
Speaker 8Well, that's right. And also, don't forget, that's the same Lynette Borland who said in a statement to the police that she was definite that she could recognize him again. Now, was she right? Was there any room for doubt there? We don't know now, of course, because unfortunately, she's died. But that's what she said. And that's what she said in a solemn statement to the police. And so the police gave her that opportunity. And she certainly didn't identify Jones. In all of these cases, we've sought to give people the opportunity to tell us their side of the story. Hosemans, Briggs. And to his credit, Briggs spoke to you at some length. Erin Brady spoke to you at some length. Jones hasn't. But he. He may well have his own reasons for not talking to us. And I don't know that we should necessarily draw any adverse conclusion from that. I'm not sure that I would necessarily want to participate in a public podcast if I was in his position.
Speaker 3Why? If you had nothing to hide?
Speaker 8Well, because I think that whether he has nothing to hide, and whether he's done nothing, as we've seen in this very podcast with respect to Hosemans, rumour innuendo. And public perception can be very powerful tools and adverse tools, very powerful forces against you. And in fact, may well make it worse for you. So I can understand someone in Jones's position. If he's innocent of this crime, if he's got nothing to hide, I can well understand why he may not want to talk to us.
Speaker 3You've heard in earlier episodes that Andrew Jones does come across to some people as awkward, perhaps even a bit of an oddball. There doesn't seem to be a lot of doubt about that. But it doesn't make him a killer. Since we discussed Jones at length in episode six, a number of women have contacted me to tell me about their experiences with him. Peter Murphy and I believe that it is important to tell their stories. They help us to understand Jones better. They help to. to paint a picture of a man who does find personal relationships difficult, who appears to be struggling under the constant pressure of being forced into the media spotlight, and very possibly of a man falsely accused of being involved in Janine's disappearance. We're left wondering, is it just too easy to fill the gaps in this story because he is different?
Speaker 5Let's just go back to your time working with Andrew Jones. What can you tell me about that?
Speaker 3I've been talking to Rebecca Alpin, and so have detectives from the police homicide squad in Sydney who went to see her a year ago. Bec lives in Orange, a 45-minute drive west of Bathurst. She's been managing local medical practices in recent years, but in 2001, she worked as a pharmacy assistant. The small pharmacy was at one end of the regional town amid a small strip of shops.
Speaker 6Bec got on well with the owners, and she
Speaker 3had been in the job about three years. She recalled that Andrew Jones was asked by the owners to work there as a locum pharmacist for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 6That was just me and him there through the day.
Speaker 3Jones has refused to be interviewed for the Night Driver podcast. I sent further questions to the criminal defense lawyer acting for him. According to Bec, in that first week of Jones' time at the pharmacy, he told her he would need to leave early one day to meet another pharmacist from the town for dinner. This meant she would need to close the pharmacy for the night.
Speaker 6Bec decided to call my boss' daughter and ask her to come down and walk out with me because I felt that it was so strange. She came down and asked me to walk out with her. And I let her in the back door so that she could walk out with me out the front. And as soon as he saw that I was with her, like, we didn't talk to him or anything. We just walked around the back and got into my car. But, you know, I just thought that was extremely odd. Okay, so your
Speaker 5boss's daughter drove presumably from her place to escort you to your car. That would have been a pretty unusual request, wouldn't it, from an employee?
Speaker 6Oh, yes, definitely. It was a very small family business, so we had very close relationships. If I rang any of them and said I was uncomfortable, they would have been there. Whether it be one of their sons, their daughter, I just knew that their daughter was close by and she would get there probably the fastest. I didn't know why he was still hanging around there. It just didn't feel right. It frightened me, I guess, that he was still there. And because I felt uncomfortable, I remember I got the daughter came and walked me out every night in the end.
Speaker 5Is it possible that he was a bit awkward, a bit shy?
Speaker 6The way that he yelled at me when I asked him to clean up the toilet and things like that. And we'd had issues with patients getting wrong medication. And I'd had the nursing homes calling and saying that their patients had wrong medication. And there was just something about him that didn't sit right with me from the beginning.
Speaker 5But why couldn't he simply have been waiting for the pharmacist that he was meeting to turn up and for them to say go to a restaurant a few doors down?
Speaker 6Yeah, no, because he said they were going to her house. And her pharmacy was on the other side of town for a start.
Speaker 5But if it was really sinister, why wouldn't he hide around the back?
Speaker 6No, well, that's true. That's true. I thought about that as well.
Speaker 5And did he go to work the next day? Yeah, we just didn't
Speaker 6really talk unless we had to by that point. I really did keep my distance after that. I just spoke to him when I had to and otherwise I wouldn't speak to him at all.
Speaker 5When you found out about him being a person of interest in 2009 in relation to Janine's disappearance eight years earlier, do you think that that would have coloured your perception of what had happened to you in that perhaps made it seem more sinister than it was?
Speaker 6When I saw that he was a person of interest, I thought, wow.
Speaker 5And he has emphatically denied that he had anything to do with Janine's disappearance. And he's also denied ever offering the three women who I've talked to a lift in his small red car.
Speaker 3The woman you're going to hear from, Nikki, was also a pharmacy assistant working in the small town of Kandos about an hour's drive north of Bathurst. I asked Nikki to be absolutely factual and just as you remember it, just what you recall actually seeing.
Speaker 15He would be very erratic at times. You would get to the point where maybe he was a little bit flustered and then all of a sudden he would just like, you know, he would lose it and then he would have to throw something or walk out, yeah, to start like throwing things around the pharmacy. Do you remember seeing him throw things? I was there when he threw his mobile phone across the pharmacy one day when I wasn't there. And one of the other girls that was working there, like, she was like, have a look at the wall. And I sort of looked at the wall and she's like, that was a chair that Andrew threw through the wall. There's probably still holes in the wall of that pharmacy from the chair because it was out in the back room and, like, every time we put posters over them.
Speaker 3Nikki is describing events she says she witnessed in the pharmacy with Andrew Jones in 2005 when she was 25.
Speaker 15When you were working with him and forming an adverse view of him, did you already know? Did you already know that he had been involved in the Janine Vaughan case? No, I didn't know anything about it until, like, I saw it on the news, obviously, a couple of years after I'd finished working with him.
Speaker 3When Nikki worked with him, Andrew Jones was not publicly involved or known as a person of interest in a murder investigation. The first time the public learned that police had been looking closely at the pharmacist was 2009 during the inquest headed by the then state coroner, Mary Jones. Nikki was at a loss to identify the triggers.
Speaker 15Like, sometimes nothing. Like, it would just be, like, a bit of a build-up of stress. I've had enough. Launch something. Was it a high-stress environment? Do I understand? It was a small-town pharmacy. He was the only pharmacist there most of the time, so he did have the responsibility, I guess. A customer wasn't happy. That was when it would turn sometimes because he would be just like, oh, that's fine, and, like, you know, storm off and then be really quite rude to the customers and be like, oh, okay. Like, not a good day sort of thing because he was just so volatile at times and you just never knew who was going to be there, whether it was going to be calm Andrew or cranky Andrew.
Speaker 5Kathy,
Speaker 16you contacted me after listening to some of the podcast. Why? I just thought with my interactions with him, the pharmacist, I thought, yeah.
Speaker 3Kathy lives with her family in a small country town in Victoria, about an hour and a half's drive from the border with New South Wales. There are a few strangers here.
Speaker 5What was your experience?
Speaker 16I'm pretty sure it was the December 2012 and everything was fine when I first met him. I reckon it was about a week or more after I'd started working with him, I introduced him to my sister, whose name was Janine. Did you say this is my sister, Janine? Yes, because she came into the pharmacy. He didn't say much, just looked a little bit strange, but I didn't think anything. I came into work on the Monday after having the weekend off, walked in, and as soon as I walked in, I'd open the door and his first words were, stop talking about me, I know you're talking about me. I sort of went, is he talking to me? I sort of looked around and thought, oh, that's a bit weird, and I said, sorry, excuse me, what did you say, Andrew? And he repeated it, I know you're talking about me, stop talking about me. I just said, I have no idea what you're talking about, Andrew. I said, Andrew, what's wrong? And he just was really mumbly, he got really agitated.
Speaker 3Andrew Jones is adamant that he has been very badly wronged by police by the 2009 inquest and all the ensuing media scrutiny, which he says unfairly links him to the disappearance of Janine Vaughan. Jones swears he had nothing whatsoever to do with her presumed murder. It's unsurprising that when Kathy worked for him, he would be hypervigilant about her name being raised 11 years later. If Jones has suffered from post-traumatic stress from it all, he might well react oddly. A short time after their disagreement, Kathy says she noticed he had made an error in medication for a customer. It happens in pharmacies, and Kathy pointed it out to him.
Speaker 16He then proceeded to just sort of yell at me and tell me, don't tell me, have to do my job, you're only effective. I'm the pharmacy assistant, and I just sort of looked at him and said, well, that's fine, but there's a mistake, it's wrong.
Speaker 3Kathy says she stood her ground despite his protest.
Speaker 16So he fixed up the mistake, I went back to the customer and proceeded to serve her. He then came across and yelled at me in front of her, telling me, don't tell me what to do, you're only the pharmacy assistant, and yelling at me in front of her. And she was an old lady, and she looked so. worried and upset. I just ignored him. He kept carrying on yelling at me and telling me, stop telling him what to do. I picked up my bag and walked out. And I was quite upset, and I rang my sister, who said, don't go back to work.
Speaker 3When Kathy called her boss, he urged her to take an hour off and then try to go back. Her boss then rang Jones. Kathy said that Jones was apologetic when Kathy returned. Things were a little tense, but they continued working together.
Speaker 16Then he did another mistake, and I picked it up again. And again, he got quite aggressive towards me, telling me, don't tell me what to do. And I'm saying, well, it's wrong. He snatched stuff out of my hand, went to the customer and told them that it was fine. The customer walked out, and I thought, I can't deal with that. I ran after the customer, walked out, ran after her, and said, that's wrong. You need to go and see another pharmacy. And he just came over me, stood over me. There was sort of a wall where we used to unpack the water against, and he stood over me, yelling at me, just rambling. I sort of stood up and pushed him back with both hands and said, you need to back off. Back off. Get out of my face. And I sort of stared him down a bit, because he was a very big guy, like very imposing.
Speaker 5Have you ever had that in a pharmacy?
Speaker 16Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no way, no. Not like that. It was very, I haven't had that in any workplace that I've worked at, where someone is in your face like that.
Speaker 5Was that intimidating for you?
Speaker 16Oh, very. It really upset me, but I've always been taught to protect yourself, stand up for yourself. So my natural reaction was, no, you're not going to do this to me. And I, that's why I stood up and put, put my hands out and said, back off.
Speaker 3Kathy told me she walked out and only returned when she realized. that she didn't have her phone.
Speaker 16And I said, Andrew, where's my phone? I haven't got your phone.
Speaker 3Cathy could see her mobile phone in his pocket.
Speaker 16I said, where's my phone? I just kept saying, where's my phone? It was here. And I knew he had it because I could see it. And I said, well, what's that? And he goes, oh, I must have picked it up by accident and then handed it back to me. I don't think it was a joke, but it was very, very strange. Did he ever talk to you about Janine Vaughan? No, no, no, no. And I didn't know anything about that until after that. And look, if the guy's innocent, I feel sorry for him.
Speaker 3After the tensions between them, Cathy had by then done her own Google searching. And this led her to news reports of Jones from the 2009 inquest.
Speaker 16And I can't remember the exact words, but that's when he told me that he has very good lawyers. And I said, well, why do you need good lawyers? I can remember saying that to him, and he just went quiet because I didn't let on. But I just found out.
Speaker 3Cathy hasn't seen Jones since. He was only working with her briefly as a locum pharmacist. But that's not the end of the story. She walked into work after a holiday break. Jones had only recently gone.
Speaker 16And on the door was the missing persons poster of Janine Vaughan on the front door of the pharmacy. Someone's following him around or something.
Speaker 3Had you seen posters about missing people on the pharmacy doors? Or before? Never.
Speaker 16That's what made me think someone's obviously following his movements or something because, yeah, why would that all of a sudden appear?
Speaker 3Peter Murphy and I are left asking ourselves, is Jones just a bit of an oddball at the wrong place at the wrong time? He certainly seems to be a person who struggles to fit in, perhaps an easy person to fixate on. We are not suggesting that Andrew Jones is Janine's killer. He has certainly been a significant and ongoing person of interest in the Homicide Squad investigation. But as Peter Murphy and I said near the start of this episode, even Lynette Borland, who was stalked that night, could not actually place Jones as the person who was following her. You heard in episode 10 parts of my interview with Erin Brady and her candid disclosure about her arguments with Janine.
Speaker 5She was very tearful and distressed about it, but she was being very open as well about the last time she saw Janine, which was at the Ox and they had a big row and said pretty nasty things to each other.
Speaker 17I'm pretty sure voices were raised. Janine was pretty cranky at Erin.
Speaker 5She said she left and she said she left with you and went back to her grandmother's place.
Speaker 3Sheree Renshaw was at the Ox with Erin the night of her arrest. She gave her argument with Janine hours before she disappeared. Erin moved away from Bathurst a long time ago. But Sheree is an accountant and she stayed to work and raise a family there. Sheree said they haven't caught up with each other for a long time. So let's go back to the Ox and you walked into the women's toilets.
Speaker 5What do you remember hearing?
Speaker 17Like I can't remember what they were saying, but they were just verbally arguing.
Speaker 5And how did it seem to you? Was it heated?
Speaker 17Yeah, it did seem a bit heated. But then on the flip side, Erin was really upset. Did you intervene to try to stop the argument? Oh, I can't remember. Do you know if anybody did? No, I don't really have a recollection of. Okay. They just sort of looked, both were, I don't know, angry, but it was, yeah, just sort of an angry argument. I do recall, like, Janine being angry and Erin sort of being, like, upset rather than angry back at her. And I think she sort of regretted losing that friendship as well.
Speaker 3So. Were you aware of tension between Erin and
Speaker 5Janine before that
Speaker 3night?
Speaker 17I think I was aware. I remember going into the bathrooms when they were having their argument. And then, yeah, we left and I remember getting breath tested in Piper Street on the way back to her grandmother's house. Because I was driving that night. And then sitting out the front with her, being really upset, and we were just sitting out the front, she was talking and crying to me and telling me how bad she felt and how bad it was. And, yeah, just being really upset. Okay. And then about, that was probably for about an hour, and then I went home.
Speaker 5What sort of car do you drive?
Speaker 17I had, back then, a green Lantra. Okay. Like a bottle green.
Speaker 5Erin said that she didn't have a car then. What's your recollection?
Speaker 17Yeah, I'm pretty sure she didn't have a car. Okay. Yeah, she was very upset when we went back to her grandmother's about the whole situation. I just remember her sitting there crying and her eyes out.
Speaker 5Well, you're a good friend to look after her. I'm a good listener. What do you remember about the police interest in you and Erin?
Speaker 17I just thought they were interviewing anyone who was out that night. I just gave them my recount of what happened and.
Speaker 5And
Speaker 17were you formally
Speaker 3interviewed?
Speaker 17Yes. At the Bathurst Police Station.
Speaker 9Yeah. And were you asked to appear at the inquest?
Speaker 17No. I wouldn't have thought it had anything to do with her disappearance. Yeah, no, I don't think she had anything to do with it. Don't think anyone that I know would have done anything like that, so yeah, I don't
Speaker 3know. Erin lived with Janine in the house at Rocket Street for much of 2001 until their friendship and living arrangement ended suddenly. Okay. In a place in which they were close, Erin was in a good position to recognize potential dangers to Janine. I asked Erin about the three men who were named as the key persons of interest at the inquest in 2009. Can you shed any light on Brad Hoseman or Dennis Briggs or Andrew Jones? I didn't even know about Andrew Jones until this podcast.
Speaker 5Can you shed any light on Brad Hoseman or Dennis Briggs I hadn't actually ever heard of him or seen him before. or Andrew Jones?
Speaker 4I hadn't actually ever heard of him or seen him. I had heard of Dennis Briggs, but I'd never met him or known that Janine had met him. And then Brad Hosemans, I feel like I kind of know more about the rumours than I actually know about whether she knew him or not. She never talked to me about him and I don't ever recall any flowers or anything like that I knew of coming from him.
Speaker 3It is a matter of public record that Hosemans has not only denied ever going on a date with Janine, he's also categorically denied ever having talked to her. Hoseman's has also sworn on oath that he had not bought flowers for Janine. A Bathurst local who asked to remain anonymous put me in touch with Debbie Campbell. She owned and operated the florist in the shopping centre at the time and Debbie told me she had no recollection at all of Hoseman's buying Janine flowers. But in the break following the release of the ninth episode of The Night Driver, Debbie Campbell's daughter Holly contacted me.
Speaker 18Someone told me about this podcast and it's just that I was listening and then I looked up a bit online and I read a bit about him denying sending the flowers and I thought, oh, I thought it was common knowledge that everyone knew that he sent the flowers. I thought we'd sort of told police that at the time. And mind you, my mum has got the worst memory in the world.
Speaker 3Holly exchanged messages with her mother, Debbie, about the flowers.
Speaker 18And here, I'll read you the exact messages. I said, have you spoken to anyone lately about the flowers that were sent to Janine Vaughan before she went missing? She said, that Hedley guy called me. I said we sent flowers, but I didn't know who from. At the time, the police called me twice and I went through the docket books and it said own card. Why? And I said, just been listening to the podcast. Brad Hoseman sent them. You know that. She wrote, I thought he did, but it's a long time ago. I actually can't remember. I did say that whatever I told the police at the time should have been on record.
Speaker 9I've not seen any statements by your mother or you to the police.
Speaker 18I remember him standing at the counter, writing his own card, sealing it in the envelope and ordering the flowers. And Brad Hosman was known. Everyone knew Brad. What's your level of
Speaker 5confidence that he really did send the flowers?
Speaker 18I'm 100% confident he sent those flowers to Janine Vaughan. We'd written Janine Vaughan, Ed Harry, $30 bunch of flowers or whatever it was, I don't know. Own card, because that means they've written their own card. We weren't worried about contact details for him because we knew it was from him. It was just going up in the shopping centre. I remember it had no sender information because usually we take a name and contact phone number, but it didn't have that on it.
Speaker 5So did the police talk to you and take a statement from you?
Speaker 18No, no. I'm pretty sure a policeman or a detective came pretty soon after she went disappearing. Now, the reason I think this is because I know that we still had the docket book on hand. It was still on the counter.
Speaker 3It seems odd, but Holly told me that when police came to the florist to ask about Janine receiving flowers, neither Holly nor her mum told police they recalled Hoseman's having sent the flowers.
Speaker 18I remember the detective coming and I remember mum finding it in the docket book, but I remember there was no sender details. So in the actual documentary record, which is your docket book,
Speaker 5it doesn't say who the sender was?
Speaker 18Correct. But you know what, I don't even think they took that docket book or took a copy of that docket book. My general feeling from them is, oh, there's no sender information, so it doesn't matter. But you have a memory, a distinct memory, that it was Brad Hoseman's? Yeah, I remember him coming and ordering them. I saw him come to the counter. I remember him standing at the counter writing his own card. I remember him sealing the envelope, and I even remember that it was like a reddy colour envelope. And I remember that there was a. There was a detective with him standing back from the counter. Because I just remember this other detective's face, like, oh, God. Like, I would have been standing right there anyway, because it was such a small shop. It's possible I handled it, yeah.
Speaker 5How do you know that he, for example, didn't send flowers to someone else?
Speaker 18Because it said Janine Vaughan, Ed Harry. But I have a feeling they were sent. I'm sure they were sent, like, the week before she went missing. Like, it was close.
Speaker 3Later in our interview, Holly told me she believed that either her mother or herself had told the investigating police.
Speaker 18It's not like something I felt I hid. I felt like we did sort of tell them. It came as a shock to me that that wasn't public knowledge that he sent them. I thought it was. And because Beth is such a rumour mill, like, you don't know what you hear, what's going on, like, I just sort of say out of it. But it came as a shock to me that the information we had given the police at that time was. just disregarded. Because I'm pretty sure we would have given them the belief that Brad sent them. I really am certain he sent those flowers. I believe he's a liar. I believe there's a cover-up. Because there was a detective with him, and I'm sure of that as well. So, you know, that detective hasn't said anything either.
Speaker 3My friend the retired judge, Peter Murphy, and I made it clear early in the Night Driver series that, in our view, the town's former deputy mayor and detective sergeant, Brad Hosemans, has been wrongfully accused of murder in a town where gossip and innuendo have ruled. Our view about this has not changed. We do not believe Hosemans had anything to do with Janine's disappearance and murder. There's just no evidence whatsoever to implicate him.
Speaker 8He may be telling an untruth. Or the florist may be telling an untruth. Or their versions might be wrong. Their versions. Their versions might be mistaken. Other people who are very close to Janine, other people who are close to Hosemans, have said, look, I've never seen any suggestion they've ever met that he's ever bought flowers. Someone's right, someone's wrong. So much of this case is murky. I think we can confidently say that if you take away rumour, speculation, dislike of him, dislike of his personality, and the way some people have described him strutting around town as if he owned it, when you strip away. I think we can say that all of the evidence which we have seen, all of the credible people we've spoken to, suggest that he had nothing to do with this offence against Janine.
Speaker 3But in light of these disclosures by Holly Campbell, we have to question whether it is possible that Hosemans, a renowned ladies' man in Bathurst in 2001, who asked his friend in fashion fair about Janine in the nearby Ed Harry store, did indeed send her flowers, and then perhaps denied it to distance himself from a crime committed by someone else. It was important to ask Hosemans about these flowers again.
Speaker 9She is absolutely
Speaker 3emphatic in saying that she was working when you came in and she believes you were with another detective or another officer, but that you bought flowers, and that you signed the card, and the flowers were to go to Janine at Ed
Speaker 5Harry's before Janine disappeared.
Speaker 19Right, no. Absolutely not, Hedley. Look, I probably have sent flowers to other women in Bathurst over the 20 years that I was there, but I can't say any more than what I've said previously, or anything different to what I've said previously, and that is I didn't have any contact with Janine Vaughan. I didn't send her flowers. I didn't ask her out. I didn't do any of that sort of stuff. She's just got it wrong, totally wrong.
Speaker 3Do you remember that florist? I remember Debbie Campbell,
Speaker 19which is her mother, having a florist. I don't remember her at all. But what I do know is that this suggestion that I was trying to date Janine Vaughan is totally wrong, and I can hand on heart sit here and say right now that no way in the world was I buying her flowers. Even attempted to buy her flowers, attempted to contact her, tried to ask her out on a date, none of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3Do you remember buying any flowers from that florist?
Speaker 19Yeah, I don't recall the store at all, but it's quite likely that over the years that I was there, and if I had an occasion to buy flowers, that I could have bought them from Debbie, that's quite likely.
Speaker 3And was buying flowers for women that you wanted to go out with before you'd gone out with them a regular routine for you?
Speaker 19No. It's not in my. They'd say, "M-O, my modus operandi to go and buy flowers before going." I'd only buy flowers for someone I was in a relationship with, whether it's a birthday or a Valentine's Day or something like that. Or if I'd done something where I had to dig myself out of a hole, it's a bit too much of a come on to send someone flowers if you're not dating them.
Speaker 3But at the time, if you had bought her flowers innocently, and then she goes missing, would you have wanted to distance yourself from it, even though you knew you had nothing to do with it? Or would you have wanted to do with her disappearance?
Speaker 19People are losing sight of the fact that I was a detective, and a detective sergeant at that. So I know what goes on in an investigation. I know what I would expect to carry on. And if I'd gone and bought something, done something, it would be an easy thing to lock me in. I know the police in the past, I'm sure in the past, they've investigated this suggestion about buying flowers and going to restaurants and dinners. And I'm pretty sure my financial records have been gone through, and there's nothing linking me with any of that sort of behaviour at all. So there's nothing to link my phone records, which they went through. There was nothing through my bank statements. There was no amounts of cash unexplained. There was no credit card purchases. There was just nothing. And it's all totally consistent with what I've always said, that none of this happened. It's all been dreamt up by a bunch of rumour, gossip and innuendo. And I can confidently stand by it, and I'm backed up by it, by the evidence.
Speaker 3Brad Hosemans was back in Bathurst on the night of Thursday, December 6. Having driven back to the town that day after a stay of several days with his mother near Newcastle. His initial claims to investigating police that he was still at his mother's place near Newcastle on the Thursday night. And that's a few hours drive from Bathurst, were based on his credit card statement. And that showed a fuel purchase near Newcastle on Friday, December 7. When it was shown later that he was in the town. In fact, back in Bathurst when Janine disappeared. Contrary to his original version, the rumours escalated. And when Hosemans corrected the mistake, but added that he could not be certain he was at his own home in Bathurst on the Thursday night. Public suspicion and gossip about him went around the town like wildfire. Can you clarify, once and for all, why you weren't able to say,
Speaker 5"I was home that night, definitely at home"?
Speaker 19Well, that's because I was asked a year later where I was. And I'd put it to anyone. If I asked you right here and now, Cold, where were you, you know, and picked a date 12 months previous. I'd defy anyone to be able to sit there and say hand on heart where they were on a time date and place 12 months previous. And be confident of getting it correct. It is what it is. My expectation is, and my belief is, I was at home. I'd returned from Newcastle after a torrid week. That's where I was. I rarely cooked at home, so it's likely I went down to the local Chinese, grabbed a meal and brought it back home. That could have happened. Could have got some fish and chips. But I know one thing, and I said this in the Police Integrity Commission hearing straight away. Just because I can't remember a year later exactly where I was on that day, there's one thing that I can remember and I'm quite clear about. I wasn't bloody well running around Bathurst trying to drag Janine Vaughan off the street and get her into a car that I didn't know. As a police officer, knowing that if you start to tell porky pies, you get yourself more in the shit telling lies than you do telling the truth half the time. So you try and be as accurate and as factual as possible. I reckon I was at home and I can absolutely sit here, talk to you and tell you hand on heart I had no involvement in causing the disappearance of Janine Vaughan. And the evidence and everything that's gone on, I believe, backs me up.
Speaker 3This is the 11th episode. This is the 11th episode of The Night Driver. Have you listened to any of the previous 10?
Speaker 19i haven't listened to any of them headly and that's no reflection on your abilities as an investigative journalist or the type of program that you're putting together but i've got to try and keep a hold of this emotionally and my way of doing that is not to listen to it and just to get about my business the main reason that i haven't done it is that it's a defense mechanism for myself to try and maintain some sort of hold on my emotion and my mental stability it's it's just something protective that i do it's too distressing if you're an innocent person and your name's constantly being dragged through this the worst thing that you can do for your own sanity is to read everything and listen to everything because it's just it's just uh it becomes a little grub inside your head and it just chews you out and honestly i don't know how i'd go if i took it on board. You're the only person that i've spoken to about this matter and that purely is based on my respect for you for the work that you do i've been honest and forthright if there was anything getting around that was untoward or would give rise to the fact that i was telling lies i think you would jump on it straight away there's still people out there that think we call them flat earthers they still think the earth is flat they still think i had something to do with it but this is still an ongoing police investigation and i don't want to be seen to be doing anything and i don't want to be seen to be doing anything and i don't want to be seen to be doing anything to derail that investigation because there's still a murderer that's got to be locked up the way i said this might help the investigation by talking to you over a number of hours about this it was cathartic in some ways hopefully it might help you've certainly been a man of your word and i'm glad that i did it i'm glad i've had the opportunity to put myself on the record i appreciate the fact that people have come and stood up for me which is just fantastic let's hope something good comes out of it headly and and whoever the arsehole is that's done this gets locked up how
Speaker 5do you feel about the flat earthers who have called you a killer for 19 years
Speaker 19i wish that the offender gets locked up what i really wish for is when he tries to get out of it i'm assuming it's a he when he tries to get out of it and in doing so they call me he's barrister calls me into the witness box to try and dump the blame on me i live for that day i can't wait and the flat earthers well then they'll probably then start to realize that i'm not going to be able to do anything about it i'm going to be able to do anything that they were chasing the wrong cat up the wrong tree this podcast is made
Speaker 3possible by subscribers to the australian and our principal sponsor harvey norman since late 2017 when i started pursuing chris dawson for the 1982 murder of his wife lynn harvey norman has been a loyal backer it began with the teacher's pet and harvey norman and its ceo katie page's support has continued for over eight years i'm proud to have had their backing on all of mine and the australian's investigative podcasts the night driver shandy's story shandy's legacy the teacher's trial the teacher's accuser bronwyn and most recently the sick to death podcast for more information on this podcast go to the australian dot com dot com dot au today on
Speaker 2the front bags of cash dodgy hotel key cards gangsters free rolexes the stunning crime wave inside australian casinos search the front to listen now headley this is a really
Speaker 20complicated case and quite frankly it's done my head in a number of times it's very complex i haven't any of the cases that i've ever had in my life i've never had any of the cases that i've ever had in my life
Speaker 3paul kirby is a former new south wales detective who specializes in the careful examination of the answers and explanations we give he's become an expert in breaking down every word of often lengthy records of interviews with suspects in serious crimes from murder to major fraud paul wouldn't describe himself in quite this way but i see him as a human lie detector and i'm always screwed by him and i'm always scared of him and i'm always scared of him and i'm always scared scrupulously honest when we chat he identifies the red flags of possible deception the areas of avoidance which provide clues to something that is sensitive or dangerous for a person being interviewed in terms of confirming truthfulness paul is looking for commitment in answers not dissembling or redirecting these are sometimes deliberate evasions an expert poker player looks for tells in an opponent's face and body language particularly when the stakes are high paul is looking for tells in the words we use and how we use them as we subconsciously and consciously edit our answers we do this when we're fearful of being caught out as we've worked well together in the past i asked paul to look at material relevant to the three known persons of interest in this case the pharmacist andrew jones the former cop brad hosemans and the former aged caretaker paul is looking for tells in the words we use and how we use them as we subconsciously and Dennis briggs i gave paul a number of documents and audio files to study and listen to there's the impromptu interview between jones and the network 10 reporter steve hart there are the records of the two police interviews with dennis briggs in 2007 there's the three-hour interview he did with us earlier this year for the night driver and there are my interviews with brad hosemans and other related documents paul soon became keenly interested in dennis briggs the only person to admit to having killed janine briggs is a baffling study on one level his claims about keeping severed human heads in his bowling ball bag and of a possum climbing down from a tree in mccatty park opposite the dirty tab to steal briggs dentures as he dozed before the said possum ran away wearing the dentures are so ludicrous as to cast doubt on the fact that the possum was a human being and that the possum was a human being briggs was off his medication when he committed a sexual assault over which he was imprisoned a few years after janine had disappeared he was according to his former partner julie cleave infatuated with janine in the section you're about to hear former police detective paul kirby comments on parts of the word-for-word transcript of the first formal police interview with briggs during investigations by strike force mount batten it is remarkable that this appears to be the first time any detectives recorded an interview with dennis briggs some five and a half years after he first told people in bathurst that he had stalked sexually assaulted and killed janine then disposed of her body near white rock now i need to stress briggs has retracted those self-incriminating claims and he has insisted he made them while drinking and he has insisted he made them while drinking heavily and not taking medication for his bipolar mental health condition well it
Speaker 20was put to him that he allegedly said they won't find a body they are looking in the wrong spot her throat has been slit and her body has been dumped near water and in response to that he said no i don't remember saying that at all unquote it's interesting because if something like that was put to someone who had absolutely nothing to do with it i'd expect that they wouldn't say i don't remember saying it but they would be more definitive and say i didn't say that at all and there's other parts in the interview where a proposition is put to him and he says it sounds like a lie to him and that he doesn't remember any of it which is very different from saying it is a lie or the conversation didn't happen and he was asked a question about whether he suspected anybody of doing this and he responded wouldn't have a clue who would think of doing anything like that it's indescribable what ever happened to her unquote and that's a really interesting response because to say something like that being indescribable is something that you've generally seen and it's an emotive word trying to relay it to someone else because what has happened is so bad that it's indescribable well generally needs to be associated with something that you've actually observed
Speaker 3peter murphy and i believe that it is important at this juncture to stress something i'm indebted to a keen listener with vast experience in dealing close up with bipolar conditions as he points out and i'm going to quote him now there is an entire spectrum of mental illness as well as an individual pendulum for patients and it swings from acute episodes at their worst to living ordinary lives under medication regimes at best unfortunately that pendulum may be dormant for a while but almost inevitably it swings again in response to external pressures and other factors like as in dennis's case the non-compliance with prescribed medications the research shows that men in particular will make more violent and threatening statements when their condition is acute and individuals in this circular system of acute episode and extraordinary acting out often draw police involvement then hospitalization then recovery and lack of compliance and then they often do not remember things they have done and said at the time of an acute episode when their brain chemistry was so haywire they can act entirely unlike themselves. I'm grateful for this thoughtful explanation. It's important context as we hear police interviews in which Dennis Briggs states he did not remember saying something.
Speaker 21The time is 1.16pm and this is an electronically recorded interview on Wednesday the 5th of September 2007 between Senior Constable Justine Priest and Dennis Briggs. Dennis, I'm going to ask you some questions about the disappearance and presumed murder of Janine Vaughan.
Speaker 20He was asked whether or not he shopped regularly at Ed Harry's and he said that he shopped there frequently.
Speaker 21Did you shop regularly at Ed Harry?
Speaker 20But the interesting thing is he goes on to give a real-life account of what he did. He's given a reason as to why he shopped there frequently. So answering a question outside the boundaries of the question is meaningful and there's a reason that a subject does that. So he's really given a reason to the interviewer as to why he did something when it wasn't called for. I did frequent there a fair bit, yeah,
Speaker 21because I like their style of clothes. They're expensive but nice clothes. So how many times would you say just on average or just from memory do you think you might have been in there either looking or purchasing your clothes at Ed Harry?
Speaker 20I could have been quite frequent in there, yeah. Because I just like their style of clothes because they're nice clothes and they're better than Woolies and Coles and BW and that. And in terms of the analysis of the interview and the language that he uses, it's a red flag.
Speaker 21And did you buy many of these clothes?
Speaker 20I could have bought quite a bit of merchandise and further, he was asked whether or not he'd purchased many of the clothes from Ed Harry's shop and he responds by saying that he could have and using the phrase could have isn't I did and they're two very different things and it's a form of non-commitment to a version of events and that's meaningful. But then interestingly, he qualifies the times that he went in there and he said, that virtually he went in there after she had disappeared. And when I went into that shop, it was probably after the time she was, whatever happened to her. And he says, and part of the sentence is, and when I went into that shop, it was probably after the time she was, whatever happened. So whatever happened to her, I'm quite, really interesting point because what we see, and interviews is that when someone's actually reliving an event or they're thinking about something, they start to articulate what's happened. If someone is withholding information, then they will typically catch themselves and then change and modify their response.
Speaker 3What you're about to hear is from the interview with Dennis Briggs in a public park in his hometown in Northwest New South Wales. In my questions to Briggs, I raised with him some of the questions he was asked and the answers that he gave in the recorded interview he did with police in May 2007. The careful transcript from that 2007 interview shows that detectives Ben Hopper and Peter McLaughlin were asking Briggs about fresh mud and dirt and foliage around the number plate and chassis of his Hyundai soon after Janine's disappearance. It raised suspicions that he had gone off road with Janine, and that he had been hit by a car. In that 2007 interview with the police, they asked you about where you've driven your car. And they asked you about reeds and other foliage, vegetation that was underneath the car. They'd obviously examined the car closely. You said that you didn't drive off road. Do you remember those questions? Do you remember how that
Speaker 22mud got on the car? Yeah, yeah. I do know how that mud got on the car. I was going to Orange Temp in Bowling, and I pulled over at a, like a, I wasn't a truck stopper, it was like a grassy area, and that's where all the, whatever, I'll tell you myself, like mud or debris or whatever, and probably how the number plate was half off was because I stopped there, because I was really, really tired and wanted a rest, so I had to sleep at that particular spot.
Speaker 7So you got tired?
Speaker 22Yeah, I got tired, yeah.
Speaker 7About 40 minutes out of Bathurst.
Speaker 22Yeah, I used to do that a lot, because I, oh, Julie was worse. She used to fall asleep at the wheel in 10 minutes. But I used to get really tired, and I don't know whether I worked a night shift or whatever, but I was really buggered, and I just stopped there to have a sleep.
Speaker 3Here's the former detective, Paul Kirby, again.
Speaker 20So where he says, I do not know how that mud got on the car, I was going to Orange Temp in Bowling, and I pulled over at a, like a, it wasn't a truck stop, it was like a grassy area. A question simply put and understood should invite a simple response, and anything less than that is meaningful. And he stutters in his answer, that's meaningful, that's showing high stress in his response, and he's also using passive language. That's another marker that is important to note. So he starts giving equivocations of what things were not, rather than what it was. And he goes on to say, and that's where all the, whatever, I'll tell you meself, like mud or debris or whatever, and probably how the number plate was half off, was because I stopped there, because I was really, really tired and wanted, I wanted to rest, so I had a sleep at that particular stop. So he's using passive language there because he's being asked about the number plate and the foliage and reeds and mud on the car. But the passive language is, a number plate just doesn't become half off. Something has to cause that, but he avoids it. So he uses passive language. Are you concerned about his explanation in relation to his movements on that day? Yes. Particularly around the number plate. Because he's not answered the question. It's an area of sensitivity. So he needs to clearly respond to the question around what happened to his car and the number plate. He's just not telling the whole story. And that's where the passive language comes in. So there's more to that version of events than he's answered. And part of his response was, Julie was worse. She would fall asleep at the wheel in 10 minutes. I used to get really tired. I don't know if I, I worked night shift or whatever, but I stopped there to have a sleep. His answer is outside the boundaries of the question. So the boundary of the question is, you got tired. So what's Julie got to do with it? Julie has nothing to do with that question. So when someone brings someone else into the answer, it's becoming a justification as to why he was tired. And we already know that he went on holidays just before Janine Vaughan disappeared. So he wouldn't have been working nights. And why would you have a sleep just outside of Bathurst on your way to Orange? That doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3I asked Paul Kirby what advice he would have given detectives questioning Dennis Briggs in light of those answers.
Speaker 20To push a bit harder about the number plate and where he was parked by the side of the road. I think there is more to that number plate and what happened to it than what he said both to the police and also to you.
Speaker 3But again, this is not, black and white. Because the bipolar illness afflicting Dennis Briggs could be affecting him in other ways. I'm going to quote further from the advice we received about it. People like Dennis have long, fraught histories with police and with medical institutions, and they may be institutionalized by these histories, which until recently included horrific measures like electric shock therapy and a raft of ostracism. It can make them deferential when dealing with authorities like police because of the fear of defending oneself in the face of authority.
Speaker 20The last bit is the clincher for me. He's asked about whether he'll continue helping with this investigation you're doing. And this bit got me.
Speaker 22I'll help you all I can. But, I am not going to admit to anything that I've done or didn't do when I didn't do it. You know what I mean? He says, "I'll help you all I can."
Speaker 20But, he emphasizes the but. And when someone uses but in an answer, that generally means you can disregard what they said before the but. So where he says, "Yes, I'll help you all I can." But, that is important where he's put the but. Do you remember him saying that to you? Yes. What did you think about that answer?
Speaker 3I'm just trying to remember. It was at the end of a long interview and it had been a long day of driving,
Speaker 20and. It was at the three hour, five minute mark. He was being very adamant. He said, "I will help you all I can." and but, so it's a qualification. I'm not going to admit to anything I've done. He pauses, or didn't do, when I didn't do it. So the pause is also important because he's realising the gravity of what he's saying.
Speaker 3Here's an excerpt relating to an area of sensitivity identified earlier by Paul. The mystery place where Dennis Briggs says he pulled his car over for a rest.
Speaker 22But that was the area I'm talking about. That's where I had a rest. If you're thinking of finding anything there, there'd be nothing there at all because that's where I had a rest. Yeah. I know it's going through your mind now. I'm thinking, oh, shit, you know. But you can send it out to a search party or whatever. I don't care, but they will not find anything there because I was just having a nap.
Speaker 3One hour on from that point, in the lengthy, long interview with Briggs, I revisited this angle to try to get a fix on it. Do you remember when we were talking earlier? Mm-hm. And we were talking about bowling and you going bowling and so on. And a location came up and you said, oh, I can see what's going through your minds, but you won't find it there, meaning Janine. Yeah. Where were you referring to?
Speaker 9That's a good question.
Speaker 3Paul Kirby was interested in Dennis' response because the defense said, he effectively misdirected the line of questioning. Briggs went on and on.
Speaker 20All that in relation to the question being, where were you referring to? There's sensitivity around the location that you're asking about.
Speaker 3But Peter Murphy is far from convinced.
Speaker 8I'm extremely sceptical, to be perfectly honest, about a claim for expertise in assessing veracity, honesty, and the like. And I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. like from listening to voices and observing and reading what witnesses have had to say. There are multiple factors that need to be taken into account in any event, all the more so, in my view, when drawing conclusions about honesty. I mean, there are a multiplicity of things that need to be taken into account. This is a man who had a frank, chronic psychiatric illness. We know that he has been up and down in taking his medication for that chronic psychiatric illness. We know that he says and does bizarre things when he's not medicated. This is a man who said that a possum in McKeddie Park stole his dentures while he was sleeping.
Speaker 3But when you were on the bench assessing witnesses and the way they spoke and answered and so on, wouldn't you just, as part of human nature, make assessments about the credibility of people because you thought they were being evasive or changing their language here and there? Isn't that really what this boils down to?
Speaker 8Partly. And of course, it's part of the job to try and assess witnesses and their honesty, veracity, reliability when they're in the witness box. But again, while judges consider themselves to be very good at assessing honesty, reliability, credibility, by reference to people's demeanour in the witness box, there's a mountain of evidence that suggests that we're nowhere near as good at it as what we might think
Speaker 3we are. The former Detective Inspector John Tate spoke to me in an earlier episode about the work of Strike Force Mountbatten before and after Coroner Mary Jerram's inquest. Some persons of interest during the Mountbatten probe were priority targets. Others considered to be less likely received lighter police scrutiny.
Speaker 23Dennis Briggs, for example, we did a lot of work on him, both COVID and electronic surveillance
Speaker 3on him. It sounds like there's a huge amount of work that was done, but the public would never hear about it.
Speaker 23That's right. I mean, they're not privy to what investigation techniques the police use, put it that way, and we just don't disclose a lot of it. As I said to you, there's things I could tell you, but I won't because it's disclosing methodology. Methodology doesn't change too much from when I was in the job to what it is now. I can't comprehend. The amount of work that goes into an investigation of this house, not only by us, but by the initial task force and the car cases later.
Speaker 3I asked John where on the list of Janine's potential killers he put the person of interest known as Bad Dennis, Dennis Briggs.
Speaker 23Nowhere. As far as I'm concerned, his initial comments that he'd murdered was just, was him. He'd been off his meds. No, he was written off early.
Speaker 5Noel, what were you doing in Bathurst? In December 2001.
Speaker 24Basically, investigating serious crime scenes, ranging from homicides right down to broken enters as well.
Speaker 3Noel Payne is retired and growing macadamia nuts on a farm a half day's drive from Bathurst. But when Janine disappeared, he was a police forensics officer working closely with the town's senior detectives. It was Noel who examined the blood-stained knife with hair adhered to the blade after it was brought back to him. He was brought to the police station by two cops, Lisa Anderson and Kylie Holland. They had retrieved the knife from where it was lying near the entrance to an aged care home. The knife was found by a member of the public who had heard the early TV reports about a newly missing woman, with her family and police fearing the worst. We covered some of this in an earlier episode, including the destruction of the knife while it was in police custody. The knife was brought into police custody when the town's detective sergeant, Brad Hosemans, was effectively in charge, just prior to the arrival of the homicide squad's detectives from Sydney. The knife's destruction by police was not the only thing that was brought into police custody. The knife was brought into police custody when the town's detective sergeant, Brad Hosemans, Police in Bathurst in early 2002 was not known to the family or anyone in the public until the inquest seven and a half years later. This only sowed suspicion. Noel Payne remembers the knife and his own handling of it and he's gone back and checked his diary to help answer my questions. Noel Payne's explanation about the destruction by police of a bloodied knife which Janine's family is concerned could have been a murder weapon does sound straightforward. This is what he says happened. Soon after the knife was brought into the station Noel examined it and he noted the hair on the blade and he noted the blood. He suspected the hair was from an animal. At the time there was no field test for the knife. Noel Payne's explanation about the destruction by police to distinguish whether it was animal blood or human blood on the blade. Noel told me that he recommended the knife would need to be forwarded to the official analytical laboratory but only if it was deemed that further examination was needed. The system was under great strain. Noel and other cops in forensics were being told they should not burden the already overwhelmed laboratory with requests for forensic testing on items which quite possibly had nothing to do with a serious crime. As Noel believed that the hair on the knife was from an animal not a human the knife was not a priority exhibit. The other factor in the knife's destruction a few months after it was brought in is that it was not actually entered into the records in the station as an exhibit. It was entered instead as miscellaneous property. The property room in the bathroom was unclaimed. Destroying such items after a few months was routine at Bathurst Police Station. I've talked to other police about these procedures and they have confirmed this is what happens. Noel said that he did not fingerprint the knife because the handle was plastic and textured. This meant it was not conducive to holding prints and trying to get prints from such a surface would have compromised or even destroyed any DNA on the handle. Noel believed there was always a chance the knife might become relevant but he was doubtful.
Speaker 5How did you form the preliminary view that the hair may not have been human?
Speaker 24Some of the hair had colour changes along the shaft so that's very indicative of animal hair. Also quite coarse, so they appeared to me to be coarser than what I would say normal human hair.
Speaker 5And if they had been apparently human hair would you have handled that knife differently? Yeah, I would have handled that knife differently.
Speaker 24Oh, definitely. Yeah, because if you've got human hair and blood on a knife obviously you're looking at something that's much more serious.
Speaker 5And at that time you felt you were sufficiently trained and therefore able to distinguish between human and non-human hair?
Speaker 24Yeah, at a basic level for sure. Yeah, look at, you know, there's every possibility I was wrong. But with my experience I had a reasonable amount of understanding the difference between animal and human hair at a macro level. You know, I was fairly certain. and it was non-human, but to have that confirmed you'd need a hair expert to look at it. at it. I think we're pretty confident that at some stage in the near future we'd have a resolution regards to a body and then we'd have some more information regards to cause of death. At that particular time there were stab wounds to the body then obviously that knife would become very relevant. There were a few things going on with a suspect and there'd been a full forensic procedure done. There was a vehicle in police possession. A lot of the forensic resources were going into that so in my view it was more important to push those resources into that aspect of the investigation.
Speaker 9What about the suggestion that there has been a vast conspiracy to cover up a crime probably committed by a police officer and that's why the knife was destroyed?
Speaker 24Crazy, absolutely crazy. That conspiracy would require a lot of people to be involved in it. It is just insane.
Speaker 5But a lot of people are suspicious of the knife being destroyed.
Speaker 24It's too far-fetched to give any credence. It just would never happen to think that that could happen. It's quite laughable really.
Speaker 9Do you believe that a case as old as this can still be solved?
Speaker 24Oh absolutely. Yeah absolutely. I would never give up on these sorts of cases. You just don't know what's going to come along.
Speaker 25I heard mention that there was some documents possibly relating to stalking and I wondered if they'd been examined.
Speaker 3Tani Dewhurst is an expert in handwriting analysis and forensic document examination. She's been working on a number of cases and she's been studying them. A scientist with a PhD in human bioscience, Tani worked for Victoria Police Forensic Services for 13 years, examining many hundreds of documents for evidence and for court before branching out on her own. Her offer to me to try to help in the Knight Driver case was kind and I'm grateful for the time she has spent on it. The handwritten stalker notes and Janine's fears were revealed in episode two. You'll recall that Janine's father, Ian Vaughan, found the stalker notes in a green bag in the wardrobe of the house in Rocket Street after his daughter had disappeared. Janine had previously reported her fears of a stalker to police. Here's a reminder of the handwritten words in those notes.
Speaker 26Don't be scared of me. I don't want to hurt you. I just want to get to know you. I'll be in touch. I've missed you. It's not over.
Speaker 27Looks like you took those notes straight to the police when you found them. Yeah. Well, I didn't know. I thought any of these could be some sort of evidence, you know. When you're in a state like I was in, you don't think straight.
Speaker 5They're a bit creepy, those notes.
Speaker 27But I don't want to see them again. I don't want to see them.
Speaker 13No, it's okay.
Speaker 3Those notes got Tani's attention as she listened. Tani wanted to see them. She offered to study them closely. What are you looking for in handwritten notes when it comes to trying to identify the writer?
Speaker 25Over the time you reach adulthood, the way that you write is fairly hardwired into your brain, and it's actually a very difficult process for you to alter or change. And that's good for document examiners because that means it's difficult for you to alter it. So if I'm looking at an individual's handwriting, there are indications in that handwriting that tell me about that. It's like a fingerprint, for example. So the way they execute certain letters, the directionality of letters, the relationship between letter sizes, where they put the handwriting on the page, the size of that handwriting. And when you try and alter your handwriting in some way, you're interrupting that motor program and that causes a stutter in your handwriting or unnatural writing behavior. And that's what you can observe in simulated and or disguised handwritings. So for example, if you give me an example of your handwriting, and then I have an example of unknown handwriting, I can compare the two. So it's a comparative exercise. And I can say whether Hedley wrote that handwriting or did not write that handwriting.
Speaker 3From those different styles, from those different characteristics, can you, for example, make an educated assessment of whether the person is passive, aggressive, unhinged, happy, serene?
Speaker 25I can't infer anything about an individual's personality or individual characteristics from the handwriting. So basically, it's an identification science. Of all the studies that have been done, there is no indications that examiners are able to determine gender based on handwriting.
Speaker 3It seems unlikely that someone seeking to remain anonymous in a handwritten note would pen the words and sentences in his or her natural hand. I asked Tani about the steps a writer might take to foil identification.
Speaker 25Individuals will try to put the pen in their other hand, if they're attempting to disguise handwriting. But the way that you form your letters and construct them will still be quite similar. So if you put your pen in your left hand, if that's your non-natural hand, or you put the pen in your mouth, or you put the pen between your toes, you're still going to execute that letter in the same way you do as if it's in your preferred hand. Because of the way handwriting is stored in the brain, you might be able to disguise your handwriting for a letter, a small word, a couple of sentences. But if I ask you to write a lot more information or give me a page of handwriting, it's going to be very difficult for you to maintain that disguise strategy. And also, I will see indications in your handwriting that you are attempting a disguise strategy. So your writing will be less fluent, for example, than it would be if you were just writing normally.
Speaker 5Okay. And I've sent you copies of some documents, and they're not great copies. We don't have the originals. What do you make of those?
Speaker 25The writing lacks fluency. It's laboriously executed. It leads me to question, is this naturally and generally written? Or is there a possibility of a disguise behaviour in this handwriting? Subjects typically implement a range of disguise strategies, such as what we see here, two-stroke formations, stick figure type writing, the introduction of serifs, such as what we see over the capital I. That's a typical disguise strategy that individuals will attempt to implement when we're asking them to disguise their handwriting. And again, this handwriting sort of raises a few red flags with me. So I'm concerned that there is a possibility of disguise behaviour within this handwriting.
Speaker 3Tani identified something else that might be a disguise characteristic.
Speaker 25I just thought it was an interesting observation that we've got such poor, poorly executed handwriting, but we've got perfect punctuation. So we've got commas, we've got apostrophes, they're all in the right place. I thought that was just worthy of noting.
Speaker 3Along with the stalker notes, I emailed to Tani a number of other samples of handwriting. The actual authors of these other notes, which I sent to Tani, are known to me. In a previous episode, you heard that Janine's partner at the time of the stalking incidents was Phil Evans. And Phil's sister Janine Evans suspected for some time that there was no stalker, that Janine Vaughan had made up the stalking stories because she was lonely and didn't want Phil leaving her to go away for his work as an electrician. Tani asked me to not disclose to her the identity of the writer of the other samples of handwriting, which I wanted her to compare with the stalker notes. But I can say now that her analysis is over, that I included samples of hand writing by Janine and samples of handwriting by several men. She compared the stalker notes with samples of Janine's handwriting and samples of the handwriting of some men known to me, men who were known to Janine. But the features of the poor quality stalker notes, or scanned notes, have badly muddied the water.
Speaker 25I am of the opinion that the scanned notes bear evidence of disguise and/or simulation behaviour, which in this instance, includes characteristics such as lack of fluency, irregular slants, angles of letter formations, stick figure formations, multiple stroke formations of individual letters, and different formations of the same letter.
Speaker 3Tani is reluctant to express a definitive conclusion. The evidence at her disposal was just too limited.
Speaker 25The presence of these features within a handwriting sample makes it very difficult to conduct an effective comparison, and I'm unable to offer an opinion as to authorship of the stalking notes in comparison to the sample handwriting submitted. Therefore, I remain inconclusive at this time.
Speaker 3We're going to close out the first season, perhaps the only season, of The Night Driver with this episode. But if there are further developments, I want to revisit it. How do you feel about it?
Speaker 8Of course I'd want to follow it through. During the course of what's now been a very lengthy process, thousands of documents speaking to many, many, many, many people, we've lifted up some rocks. We've lifted up some rocks that have caused us real concern. So if they come to fruition, I'd certainly like to revisit it and bring a conclusion for Kylie and the family, which is essentially how I got interested in the first place.
Speaker 3So we will revisit
Speaker 8this when there is more to do? I'm reasonably confident that the police now have more leads, more sources of information, more avenues of inquiry than they had before this podcast started.
Speaker 3It's an amazing vehicle, a rolling podcast investigation that picks up evidence, a bit like a snowball.
Speaker 8Yeah, I think some people are critical of it. And And certainly people in my profession, I think, are critical of it from time to time because it's, you know, who the hell are we? Who the hell are you? You're a journalist. You're not a police officer. You know, you're not a trained investigator. And the same certainly applies to me. But I think the thing that's missing from that criticism is an understanding of the nature and extent of the cooperation and information people give to someone like you that they, for whatever reason, haven't given to the police. One of the things that I've been struck by is the number of people out there who just earnestly and sincerely want to fight. I find Janine's killer not just to bring a murderer to account, but because of the pain that Janine's family suffers and has suffered for such a long time. In a podcast, if you put your neck out and say, well, you can contact me either openly or confidentially, then there's a focal point and people say, well, I can.
Speaker 3We'll continue to do this. We don't know where it's going to take us. But when there are further developments, we'll be back. We'll be back for another episode, perhaps another season of The Night Driver.
Speaker 8It's people who have a sincere desire to see peace being brought to Kylie and her family and resolution, hopefully, with someone being convicted of a terrible crime.
Speaker 3There's a room in Kylie's house in Musselbrook and she calls it her office, but it's more like a shrine. Almost every last space on the walls and tables are covered with framed frames. Photographs of her sister Janine, police missing persons, posters of Janine, newspaper front pages about her disappearance and mementos from her life. In an earlier episode, you heard from Jill, who was married to Brad Hosemans and spoke of him as a gentle man who would never hurt a woman. Jill and Kylie have mutual friends.
Speaker 6I've actually been in Kylie Vaughan's house, but my heart breaks for her because when I was in her house, I remember looking around and there were photos of Janine everywhere. Beautiful photos and obviously really close sisters and it must rip her heart apart every day. I don't think there'd be a day where she wouldn't wonder what's happened to a sister.
Speaker 3This is very true. I've heard Kylie when she's been at the end of her tether.
Speaker 6I'm just left hanging. I feel like crap today. I am really upset. I feel like crying today. My whole emotion is just, I just want to cry. I want to scream. I'm probably yelling at Livia a lot more. I should be, but I'm just so frustrated, you know.
Speaker 3Her husband, David, has been a pillar of support. We spoke about it over a beer at his local pub.
Speaker 28You don't really understand what sort of effect it has on a family until you're there and you can see what's going on. She's like a dog at a barn. Takes over everything. Can't sleep at night. It's all encompassing. Terrible. When Kylie's been obsessive or. Being consumed by it all. That's, you know, that's a lot of the time, that's all that's going on.
Speaker 3I asked Janine's father, Ian, how he deals with the not knowing. The ambiguity and the grief surrounding a death but no body. With no understanding of what's happened.
Speaker 27No closure. I'm powerless. I'm powerless. That's what makes me get so frustrated. Everything just builds up. I'm a very emotional man. Very emotional. I have been all my life. And it just builds up and builds up and builds up and takes charge of me. I'm at the stage now that if I don't get away, I could go downhill again. You know, and I don't want that to happen. Because I've got the kids.
Speaker 3Kylie took me for a drive, but not before some banter with her dad.
Speaker 7I want him down closer to me.
Speaker 27Over the road, she wants me.
Speaker 7I do not want you at the retirement home. I want you home. I want you home. I'm not going to your place. No, no, no. I wouldn't bloody have you. See you. Bye, Dad. You did well today. So, we're just coming into Mountain Street. It's changed colours. Wow. It is. The little frogs are still sitting at the bottom of the steps.
Speaker 3Serendipity. God, it's in good shape. Yeah. What do you think of the colour scheme? Yeah, not a fan. It's like lime grey.
Speaker 7It's just horrendous, to be honest. A red door. I've got fond memories. They used to have a little shed up the back. And, you know, we used to play. It was like a little cubby house. And they'd have a trampoline. And Gran loved a garden. And she had garden stuff up there as well.
Speaker 3Where are the bedrooms? Front or back?
Speaker 7There's one bedroom at the front here. Jermaine's bedroom used to be on the left. I think they're on the side there, actually. It's got a little room in there. A lot of memories there.
Speaker 3A happier time and place. We do not know where Janine Mary Vaughan's life ended. We don't know how it ended. We can point to seemingly random chance events before Janine died. The loss of a handbag. The rain. A lover's tiff between Jordan and Juanita. Janine choosing to walk ahead. And if one of those random events just doesn't happen, Janine doesn't get into a red car at 10 to 4 in the morning, Friday, December 7, 2001. But this was her fate. Kylie and I talked about random events. Sliding door moments. We sat outside Janine's childhood home.
Speaker 7You change one thing. But then you think it's kind of like messing up the world's way of doing things. You can't just go, well, if I had to change that one thing, like the butterfly effect type thing, she may have died in a car accident. She may have got run over. And so many lives are ruined by just changing one thing. So many people would never have met Janine if she hadn't have moved to Bathurst. Do you know what I mean? Like, you just sort of think, well, it's just what it is. She's obviously meant to not live a long life.
Speaker 3Tackling this investigation into Janine Vaughan's disappearance has been enormously challenging, but it has always been a privilege. The project would not have occurred in the first place without the efforts of two women, Janine Hosking and Katrina McGowan of Eye Candy Films. They brought this case to me and they had done so much work on it before I became involved. We worked on it together before the pandemic struck. I thank them and Stephen Hopes and regret we could not finish what we had planned to do. Janine and Katrina introduced me to the immediate members of the Vaughan family. Kylie, Adam, Rod and their father Ian. I wish we could have finally solved the case for you. We are still trying. Kylie is one in a million. So determined and good-humoured, I'm lucky to have met her. My audio engineer friend Slade Gibson and Blacksmith & Co have done every episode, every musical score under sometimes crushing deadlines with care, professionalism and very wise counsel. they are brilliant. My friend the retired Judge Peter Murphy has been a great partner in crime. His judgment, measured approach and left field ideas have been invaluable as we tried to solve this baffling case. The Australian newspaper and news corp provide the time, funds and autonomy to help me achieve these projects. Warm thanks are due to the Chairman Michael Miller, the Australian's Editor-in-Chief Chris Daw, CEO Nicholas Gray, who has been at the heart of this project from the start, and Steve Jackson, who wrote many tens of thousands of words for the newspaper and digital site, as well as David Murray and Matt Condon for their great insights and advice. I'm also very grateful to Petra Rees, John Lehman, Michelle Gunn, Stuart Fagg, Chris Bosley, Nick Adams, Jasbar, Eric George, Kel Southern, Alice Bradbury, Dean Rolfe, Liliana Molina, Anna Zakaris, Alex Chigi and Milan Sepinovic, Emily Cowell, Elise Popperwell, John Paul Cashin and Corey Janke. They are all my colleagues who helped make this happen. I thank my wife Ruth Mathewson who was there for me in every episode and my children Alexander and Sarah who tried to stay quiet while I was narrating. We would not be able to embark on investigations of this scale without the backing of a launch sponsor like harvey norman and its ceo katie page who is committed to helping solve cold cases and violent crime thank you so much katie the night driver is a podcast series investigated and written by me hedley thomas with assistance from peter murphy music and audio production is by blacksmith and co with additional audio support from chris bosley this podcast series is brought you by the Australian newspaper and digital site. Visit thenightdriver.com.au for additional documentary material as well as credits for the full team behind this multi-part production. Anyone with information about the disappearance of Janine Vaughan can contact me confidentially by email by going to thenightdriver.com.au. You can search for the Night Driver podcast official discussion group on Facebook and join in with the exchange of ideas and information. This podcast is made possible by subscribers to The Australian and our principal sponsor, Harvey Norman. Harvey Norman has provided unwavering support for my investigative podcast since 2018. For more information on this podcast and on our entire investigative catalogue, go to theaustralian.com.au. Today on the
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