Episode 11: Development/ Fundraising with Cher-Wen DeWitt

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Impact Compass, a podcast by Julius Embaer. In this show, we explore opportunities in the nonprofit and social impact space and amplify the impact of their leaders. We do this by finding amazing nonprofit and social impact organizations and their leaders. We share their stories, their triumphs, and their struggles in this dynamic, complex, and competitive space. By doing this, we hope to showcase how the work of these amazing leaders and their organizations is impacting and changing their communities. Inspire a new generation of nonprofit and social impact professionals determined to create an even better world. Inform the sector on new and emerging practices from nonprofit and social impact practices in Africa and lastly make them findable so that they can be fundable. Before we get going, please remember to subscribe, rate, and share this podcast. It helps others find it. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcasts. Welcome to the show. I'm excited to be back in 2026 and looking forward to a great year. I'm studying the year with one of my favorite persons and you'll get to know them very shortly. We know that 2025 through a curveball to the development sector, the dismantling of USID, meant that organizations had to pivot, fundraising had to pivot. And lots of changes really laid a lot of pressure on development professionals, especially those who are in fundraising. Today I'm excited to be talking to Shao Wen, do it, who is the development director at Imagine Walloi. And she'll be telling her story and sharing it with us some of the lessons and the things that have happened in this space, even as we try to adapt. Shao Wen has served with organizations such as One Echo Fund. She's been a global health core before, served with foundations such as Single Family Foundation and others. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Julie. And for those who do not know Shao and who is Shao and what would you like them to know about here? Oh my goodness. Yeah. We're to begin. I mean, I think maybe the easiest thread to draw through everything is, I think I've always been a really community-oriented person. Right. And I think that's true in my personal life, but it's proved especially persistent in my professional life. I think everything that I do is motivated by relationships. Yeah. And that could be people who have mentored me, that could be with peers, etc. But I think as you know very well, Julia's especially in fundraising, relationships are really the core of sustainable practice. It is. It is. But in terms of my background professionally, I started my career in public health. In the US, I was a peer HIV counselor and worked with children with HIV. And that's what initially led me to Kenya 19 years ago for the first time. Right. When someone said that they knew a family in Bungoma, we're running a clinic and community outreach program. It was called Ikude and I came and shadowed their work and volunteered. Volunteer just a strong word. I was here learning from them. I don't think I had much to offer in terms of skills or experience then, but I learned a lot. And it got me very committed to learning more, not just about community health, but about how community health work is practiced in East Africa in particular. And that's where my career started. Brain. And how has that evolved over time to becoming the director of development now? Yeah. So I essentially spent about 10 years in operations, logistics, roles in various nonprofits. Yeah. First in public health, then agriculture. I did a brief stint in American politics. That's exciting. Exciting, stressful. Because that is that is the role where you are doing some fundraising with the individual donors for for Policopatis. So that was my first, that's yeah, that was the first experience I had where I was really involved in fundraising. I was director of operations at an organization called Flipable. And in support to our CEO was starting to have interactions with donors. Yeah. That's where I started to dip my foot in. And then in 2019, was invited by our friend, Deito, to consider working as the director of partnerships at Segal Family Foundation. And that started me in about three years at Segal working in that role. And then I spent two years freelancing as a philanthropic advisor and fundraising consultant. So did about five years in philanthropy. But today, I'm glad to say I was lucky to be brought back to the doer side by Imagine Worldwide. Yeah. Where I work with an amazing team and incredible leadership. We are focused on bringing a personalized tablet-based literacy and numeracy solution to African primary schools. I'll be I'll be coming to that. I'll be coming to that because it's a very interesting model, especially in this era where technology and learning cannot be a foundational learning cannot be separated. Now, you've talked about that switch from being on the funder side and now on the doer side. Yeah. What would you say has changed insofar as that is concerned? For me personally. Yeah. As in what is the experience like, you know, when you are on the funder side, the imagination is that you're making all the decisions you are in this powerful position. Where are you making decisions on who gets granted and stuff like that. When you come on this other side. Yeah. Which is you now doing the chasing for lack of a better world. Yeah. I think that's very true. I mean, I think regardless, I think it is always the case that anyone working on the foundation side. Is on the benefiting end of an outsized power dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. That said, in my specific role, I was not personally making grant decisions. Yeah. So my role was more focused on connecting organizations with potential sources of funding. Yeah. But it was in in some ways, sort of a type of whip lash. Yeah. When I when I first started working at the foundation, having worked in non-profits for over 10 years before that, it was I sort of felt like, am I allowed to be here? Yeah. Are you sure? I can be in this conversation or, you know, I felt internally maybe a bit out of place or unsure. Yeah. But I think my time spent in philanthropy has been extremely helpful in terms of gaining a sense of perspective. Yeah. Both in terms of I gained a new vantage point on on the work that I had been doing as, you know, in nonprofits or as a doer, as we say. But then I think also learned a lot about the intricacies of philanthropy. And I think, you know, no matter what we do professionally, I think from where we stand, it is very easy for us to generalize. The position of others. And I think having that time in philanthropy helped me understand, you know, kind of the real diversity in that landscape of, you know, types of funding, the types of people working in it, even within a single foundation. Yeah. There are so many different viewpoints and and I think that time has been extraordinarily helpful. And you know, it's also very helpful going into philanthropy from the perspective of a doer because there is something that you bring in the experience of like what it means to look for money and the relationship. It just makes the relationship more human and more understanding of each other. You've talked about your current role at Imagine Wallride and, yeah, I mean, always very excited. Talk about the work of Imagine Wallride. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do sort of a broader context and I'll come back to kind of the role of technology. So at Imagine, we work really closely with national governments specifically today in Malawi, Tanzania and Sierra Leone to bring a tablet-based literacy and numeracy program to public primary schools. And I say public specifically because these are often the most underserved areas for many children in these countries. And across the continent, what we've seen is that there is a foundational learning crisis that only one in 10 children on average is leaving primary school able to read a simple text. And so this requires really innovative thinking, a problem of that magnitude. And we are very grateful to have a solution that is well researched that demonstrates that it at least doubles the number of children who are able to leave school, literate and numerate. Amazing. And work very closely with a combination of governments, local organizations as our implementation service partners, and also funding partners to bring this to as many public schools as possible in those countries. Now I love the work and I think I've been excited even for deploying these in refugee settings where learning is very difficult. I mean it just enables and bridges that important gap for children to learn better. And you know I'm a fan of the work and congratulations to the team and the progress that you guys are making. You know like we say that the opening of the conversation 2025 was different. Really change the funding landscape. What's happening right now? What's the situation? And especially for you people who are in fundraising at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think as you've already said across the board 2025 was a really difficult year for anyone working in development sectors and social impact. We're coming up on the one-year anniversary of the stop work order. Yeah. That I think for many of us is a day, a week, a month of experience that lives in strong memories. It is an edge team memory. Yeah. Because it was really devastating for many organizations, for many communities. And I think has since left us in a state of shifting fans. Right. And really having to reorganize what we know about our work and the types of strategic futures that we might have been envisioning for programs. And has required us all to kind of make sense of a new reality. Specifically one where resources are are a lot more scarce than they were before or at least the ones that are readily available to people. And I think that you know this is different in each sector. I think global health and the work for example that you do at Luala was the most significantly impacted for sure. Deeply. And I think the question, I think people are still trying to understand what is sort of the new order. Yeah. And I think on the one hand the like the devastation has been significant and we have not yet recovered in terms of really securing new streams of funding for many organizations. And at the same time I think it's also raised a lot of important questions about what were the risks of the system running the way it did before concentrating so much power and so many resources. You know in these foundational pillars that kind of crumbled for us. And I think in terms of what we can expect now, I think we're still figuring that out. Right. I think we all agree that philanthropy has a significant role to play in. Even if it is not going to replace the gap I think. Yeah because it's a given that it's not possible that we have seen this in the past one year that the state resources were so huge. It's such a huge basket and that place such an important role in what was going on. There is no expectation of that philanthropic and feel that gap in total. I know government's have stepped in and I believe our governments are doing a lot more to continue things even with new arrangements. But like you're saying philanthropy still has a very important role to play. And going on going on with that, one of the things that I know about philanthropy is that we still have to communicate a story of hope despite the despair because I think nobody wants to give to a hopeless situation. Is that the case? I guess so. I think and I think you and I both have the experience of approaching funding and approaching philanthropy as true collaboration and true partnerships. Right. And I think that in the spirit of true partnership I think organizations really have to, as you've already said, dig deep to find what is the trajectory out of our current situation and how do we build a vision that other people can access and relate to. Yeah. But I also think on the philanthropy side there's an opportunity to be really courageous and for philanthropy to rethink its role. And I think a conversation you and I are often very privy to is in philanthropy a lot of people talk about risk a lot of the time. Yeah. And I think now is a really excellent time to challenge kind of conventional assessment of risk and to say actually what is the risk of not stepping in more assertively? What is the risk of not funding essential programs? Yeah. And so I think it's really a combination. Was the risk of not spending now? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. I don't know whether this is your experience but if this situation of 2025 I reflected on it with the situation of COVID in 2020. And I feel like the response from philanthropy was completely different. I think that in 2020 there's a lot of stepping up wanting to do more deal with the crisis now. And I saw philanthropy deploy a lot more resources. Which is slightly different from what I saw in 2025. I saw a bit of more less appetite for risk and a bit of risk of usness. Yeah. And a bit of holding back because as late as even April, you know, there are for where you hear people approaching things differently. I felt that there was more holding back rather than really engaging in. I don't know what your experience and your observations were and what we can do in this time to continue to add philanthropy to after differently. Absolutely. Yeah. I think I saw a lot of a lot of similar things to you. And I think, you know, as we know there are there's there's a lot of diversity in the way that different foundations and different philanthropists responded. And some did really step in quickly to say we understand there are immediate gaps in organizations, budgets, and we would like to do what we can to support materially and grants and also to find other ways to support organizations. But overall, I would agree. I think a lot of organizations that had been having, you know, kind of long-term conversations with funders or foundations started to get emails or calls or have conversations where they heard we're taking a moment to rethink things. We heard the same exact same thing. We're taking a moment to rethink or we're pausing to reconsider our strategy that a lot of people are put on hold. And I think a lot of organizations, for a lot of organizations, it was very difficult being in this holding pattern of, of course, wanting to be respectful of that process and maintain those relationships well while also facing real urgency in in their communities or with their teams. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're looking at either laying people off next month or or whatever, there is there is no luxury of rethinking and all right. Do you think we have passed that and those strategic considerations have been settled or are we looking to another year where still thinking about strategy and response is still going to be a dominant thing? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you've had a different experience, but I think the pieces are still settling. Yeah. I think, you know, we're facing a time where a lot of things are changing. Yeah. Geopolitically, and we're facing a lot of changes to institutions that have been very core in the development sector at large. And so I don't think we've yet reached a settled place. But all the more reason I think to have conversations like this, and I really believe that, you know, we all do better as sort of, you know, we are like greater than the sum of our parts when we work together. And it's it's far better to do fundraising as a coalition or as a group or a community. Yeah. To really understand where we all sit. Yeah. And even if it is not like a formal coalition where you are going for funding together, but I think that conversation that goes on in this piece to just understand what is going on and things like that. And like you've said, I mean, we are not generalizing for everyone. Right. I mean, and we are not generalizing that everybody had to pose or think by a more dominant theme. But we also know that there are those who really stepped in. I know like in our case, gaps left in access to commodities and essential services, enabling essential services. Yeah, we were able to get partners to come alongside and in the interim help communities and government to step in situations like that. But I think just to say that we can, 2026, still, is not settled. And I'm looking forward to the conversations in BCI, especially in places like where people converge to hear what the vibe would be like. And I'm hoping that there is a little bit more zeal in wanting to change things and move things forward. Yeah, a little bit more. Yeah. And of course, always looking to the future with hope. Yeah, we have to. We have hope is a discipline. Yeah, and it's currency. Yeah. That's true. You are listening to the impact compass. We're pleased to have you. Are you a nonprofit or social impact leader seeking to create lasting change? Is your organization seeking to grow or going through a period of rapid change? Do you have questions on strategy, program design, donor or government engagement? Visit juliusbea.com. We provide mentorship and co-chair for nonprofit and social impact theaters and support funders and grantees to achieve big impact for communities. juliusbea.com, empowering social impact theaters to create lasting change. Back to the podcast. Yeah, Sean, we talking about fundraising or development as people would call it. And so I want to ask to look at some practical aspects because I think some of the listeners working in the space want to pick tips from here, those who are already doing it, they are also looking at ways of improving their practice. But let's just start with, I don't want to go individual, but this is like philanthropy. How do you go about identifying philanthropies who can support your work? Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a little bit of an art to it. Yes. But I would say a combination of first looking at, who do you know in terms of your board, your network, the people who work on your team, and understanding, who do we have connections with in our extended network? Because I think in most of our experience, having been connected through a person through relationships is always a more successful path than you may find a foundation or a person online that is on paper aligned with your work. But it's very difficult to make cold connections, not that it's impossible. But it's also true that a number of funders do not, they say, unsolicited applications. Yes, so that connection beat is important. Yeah. So I think starting with really talking to people in your networks and saying, who do you know who might be values aligned or mission aligned or strategically aligned with our work and having those conversations? And doing your research, I also often encourage organizations if they say, I have no idea where to start, because you know, I think a lot of newcomers or a lot of early stage funders, they say, should I be looking through a database? And in general, that's not my first suggestion, because that can be a little bit like looking for a needle in a haystack and even then, how do you connect with them? Instead, I usually say, you know, kind of in your work environment, look to your left and your right. Who are the other organizations that do work maybe similar to yours, maybe not exactly the same. I call them kind of your neighbors in the space and find out who funds them. Usually you can see that in people's annual reports. You can see that on their websites and say, you know, if this organization does work, that's a little bit adjacent to ours, but shares enough similarity. I think we have a bird friend in the studio, which is nice. If anyone can hear that. But really looking at other organizations similar to yours and finding out who works with them is actually, I think, a really helpful place to start. Yeah. So, you know, talking to others, looking at who in this space has been, who is finding similar work in their space. And I think what you are saying is very important, especially for local organizations and especially those who are operating from this part of the world, that you might not have a fundraising team in the West or otherwise, but who else is doing the work that you are doing and how. How do you convert? You've seen prospects. And now, yeah, how do you convert these to funding, you know? Yeah, the most important piece for a lot of people are the most difficult piece, right? And I think I would break this into two areas, if you'll allow. I think first is the most common concern. I hear from people who are fundraising as they say, I just don't think I'm the type who can be good at this. And when they say that, what they mean is they think of a person who's sort of a sales person. All right. And not everyone inhibitions themselves as that. I don't know many people who do, honestly. And I think the first thing I would say is people are so focused on their pitch and knowing how to speak about your work is important. But I think it's far more important to come from a place of being genuine. And I think for the nervous or the newer fundraisers, out there, I would say, you don't have to put so much effort into trying to be someone you're not. Yeah. Rather focus on delivering with genuine passion why you do this work or why your team does this work. So are you saying that those conversations about elevator pitch and all that I should set those aside? Or not exactly. I think it's still important to learn how to speak about your work. But I think we play so much emphasis on the pitch that it distracts from what I would call the second part, which is actually being in conversation. Oh, great. People get so focused on the pitch and that they forget to ask questions. That they forget to find out who is the funder. What is important to them? Why are they doing this work? And I think something I am grateful for experiencing on the funder's side is just how difficult it can be when person after person walks up to you and immediately says, I just need to tell you about our work. And then tells you a 10 minute pitch that they've memorized, that they're afraid to stop, because they're afraid of forgetting one of their points. When all you really want to do is have a conversation. Right? And I would say, don't waste precious in-person time or conversational time on something that a document could accomplish. So if you can accomplish in a one-pager, sharing what your organization is, then utilize the gift of time with a person to actually learn about what's motivating them so that you can actually have that-- I love nuggets and what you just say, I think I'll ask you to say it again. Don't waste precious in-person time on something that can be communicated in a document. Yes. Wonderful. What you're saying is, I remember a conversation again in this podcast where somebody on the other side was just sharing. Like, you know, some of these convenings where people come, three, four days and being on the fun that side, you are being paid part with, peach after peach. And I remember saying that one of the things that she appreciated was actually a moment where somebody just said, can you-- let's just have a conversation. How's your week been and stuff like that? And it just like lowered everything and every pressure of wanting to respond to our requests and stuff like that. So that conversation part is so important. And I think it's important because that person does want to know about your work. It's very likely. But in a time and a place where they have the ability to readily absorb that information, but while they have time with you, it's like, I want to get to know Julius as a person. And why is he here? Why does he do the work that he's doing? And so I think it's understandable. You feel like this is my one shot. This is my chance to speak to this person. But I think it's a natural kind of evolution of how we learn to grow these relationships. That comes from such a place of experience. And guys, if you've not taken anything, I think you should take that. Because I think we have so much under pressure to close, to come away with. but sometimes it's just like that get to know you. is what will open opportunity for you to have a full-on conversation that can then translate into a funding opportunity. But don't you think that that also happens when you are operating from a place of comfort? I mean you go into these spaces, you know that your payroll is not going to hit in three months and you just need somebody who is going to come alongside you. How do I balance the agency of the need vis-a-vis like the long game of get to know you the relationship that we've talked about that eventually translates into funding. Yeah I think that that feeling of urgency or importance is absolutely understandable and I think the context that that funders have to keep in mind is often you know for many organizations you've paid a significant amount of money to make a journey to somewhere very often is where these conversations happen. And you know that your team is counting on you you've probably had to go through a difficult visa process to get to this location. So a lot is writing on it and it's understandable. At the same time I think if you're if if if the stress is what is driving you you have to take an outcomes driven approach. Yeah. Which is if I introduce myself and I very briefly share this is the organization that I work for and pause that gives the funder or the other person a chance to ask me a question. Right. And often their question is also sharing a piece of information with you which is what is important to this person. Right. Because through their questions you'll learn what's what's the most salient thing or or aspect of your work from their perspective because every funder will ask you in a slightly different way because it reflects what's important to them in their giving or in the style of their foundation in some cases if it's a staffed foundation. And and I think it's it can be a really good opportunity because I think another challenge with this this idea around the pitch. Yeah. Is that if you are delivering the same pitch to every funder you meet then you're doing it wrong. Right. Because really it's like having one application letter and you are sending it to several employers without really looking at the difference between the different even if it is the same position. Right. Employers are looking for different things so you cannot take one application letter and that is what you keep on sending. Right. Because funders know there are many organizations doing important work but the question is why is your important work a good fit for their giving or their goals. Great. Now they've come in and we need to retain them and continue to work with us in the journey and just ensure that we have long-term relationships with them. How do you keep them fun, that's happy, how do you keep them engaged and willing to continue to fund your work. Absolutely. I mean I think kind of following in the same vein I would say first is to ask them. Every funder has a difference that of expectations or preferences. I've had funders who have said I'm making the grant to you. We'll speak in a year. Okay. And that is their preference. I've had funders say please send me updates. I want to hear about what's going on or let me know if I have a chance to visit and you have to kind of run a menu of options past them to say how often would you like to hear from us. Do you prefer written communication. Should we put calls on the calendar. Would you like to visit the work. Make sure that they understand what you're ready and available to provide and find out what their preferences are first. And then I would say second is pull them in as collaborators and by that I mean I think there is again going back to this idea of understandable fear. There is an understandable fear of you know what if something is not exactly going as we predicted in our work or what if we miss a milestone or we didn't quite hit a target. There can be a fear to share that information with funders. And I think that what can actually build the most durable long-term relationships is to draw in the funder when those things happen and to say you know we have met this challenge or hit this roadblock and here is our plan for how we're dealing with that or here's what we've learned from this and I think they really appreciate that I think that builds trust mutually but also helps them to feel that they're involved and I think it's it's moments like that or conversations like that that actually build long-term stronger relationships. And that trust building that keeps people in for the long-term but I think they're also practical things such as like you are reporting you know you are which is both narrative and financial because you also have to meet your obligations as a grantee so to say. Yeah great you know development is a daily grind. 24/7. 24/7. You think it's live wake up to development? Yeah. How do you maintain the balance and still maintain the interest in doing this this work? Yeah good question. I'll be honest it's difficult. Yeah right I think we each go through seasons where that are more or less balanced and I think there are times where we can feel that we are stretched very thin that we're experiencing burn out you know development positions are some of the highest turnover positions in nonprofits for multiple reasons but one of them is that it is very stressful and it is very high pressure. I think for me a part of it has to do with really being honest with myself about what I'm capable of doing in a day. I think there can be a natural tendency and fundraising to say I'll get this to you today or to never say no right and I think something that working on the funder side showed me is that if an organization when I worked at a foundation if an organization said we really need one more week to get this to you or could we ask for one more week to get this to you in a really high quality format or we need more time to verify data or to check with our teams usually I had that time on the foundation side and all somebody needed to do is talk to me in advance about it so I think learning to learning to let people know what you also need to deliver to deliver what they're looking for because what the foundation or the funder is looking for is is an honest and insightful picture of the work and so I have gotten better over time at learning to ask for the right conditions to get them what they need and I think it's also about not doing it alone. I think the people who really burn out badly in this work generally tend to be the ones that I've noticed are not reaching out for help from friends and from peers and really as I've reached out to you asking for help or asking for advice and I think it's really important to not do this work alone even if it is just to talk about how you're doing. Yeah and I think this is this is where I was saying it's not just when you talked about working coalition it just doesn't mean like you have a formal partnership right who is in your space that you can actually tend to ask a question okay I'm talking to this funder what do you know about them how should I approach and things like that those are very important to in yeah and and also not seeing development team or the development leads as they solve people who have the sole responsibility to bring resources into the organization I mean you are coordinating efforts you are helping us position better but everybody plays are all in ensuring that funding comes through and and don't as are retained yeah very important for young people who are either considering a career in fundraising or are in the other stages of their career what advice do you have for them? Well I mean I should say as we've talked about I didn't start my career in fundraising and I honestly it it came coincidentally more so than something that I was striving for so my advice might be a little unusual I think it's important to to to get experience in the work I think some of the best fundraisers that I have ever met are people who previously worked in operations roles and strategy in evaluation there's so many different paths but I think having real experience in the work really helps to translate those realities because that's really what you're doing in a lot of fundraising is you're acting as a sort of ambassador or translator between parties you are representing the work yeah yeah and to represent the work you have to understand the nitty-gritty, the details of how it happens. But what I would also say is I think that as you move through your career, choose your opportunities based on the people that you are working with. I think there can be opportunities, roles, or organizations, or institutions that feel incredible on paper. But if you're working in an environment that is not the right fit for you or that is not supportive, that golden opportunity can tarnish very quickly. How do you know the people before you go ahead? I mean, I think that's an important part of setting your goals or evaluating an opportunity is talk to people who work at the organization and try to understand. It's not just about what title do I want to have or where do I want to say that I'm working. Who do I want to be working with? Because I think you can have a role in maybe a less well-known organization with the right mentorship and with the right teammates, it can be an incredibly rewarding experience. And I think that's really key to motivation in keeping you in it and the work. And I think in development also just like being attracted to the work because I think it's a lot easier if you are fundraising for something that you believe in and something that you are enjoying rather than just doing it for the sake of. Because I don't know how you will enthusiastically talk about the work. I represent that work if there is not something that is close to your heart. Absolutely. And the people doing it. Yes. Because I'm fundraising. I'm thinking about my incredible teammates who I want to be able to, you know, I want them to be able to focus on what they do best. And not have to worry about where is the next month's payroll coming from. How do we keep the lights on? They should be able to focus in their areas of specialty. And so I think a lot of people who funders were doing it for our colleagues as much as we are for the mission. Yeah. What have you found to be the most difficult part of the work? Good question. I mean, we already talked about personal sustainability being a challenge. But, you know, I think the thing that sets me back the most is when there is misunderstanding in miscommunication. I think I personally take that very hard when I realize that maybe I did not communicate something in the right way or I feel that someone has gotten the wrong impression. Those are times when I'm pretty hard on myself because it's really important to me to get that part right. And usually, I mean, I find that like when things don't come through or something isn't, a relationship isn't closed on. Oftentimes, it is because of some form of miscommunication or misunderstanding. And some of those can also lead or can end up in loss of funding relationships, right? Again. Yeah, I can. Have you had an opportunity to like shall I say, let me say, off-ramp or graduate off-ramp or? As in we chose or they chose? We chose. Oh, interesting. I know that is that a choice? No, I think there is a choice. And I something I used to say to a lot of organizations when I worked at SQL is it's important to know that not all money is the right money for you. Because you're also, it's not just a transaction you're bringing in a partner, a collaborator. And not everyone is the right fit for a partnership. So while I have not in my fundraising roles done that today that I can remember right now, but I have worked very closely and like been advised organizations through that decision when they have made it. And it's a very difficult one for an organization to make, but usually it's because of a real misalignment in goals or in values. Yeah, great. You know, we have a tradition in this podcast where guests leave questions for the upcoming guests. And in many cases they don't know who is coming on the podcast. So our last guest left a question for you. Okay. And the question is when was the last time that you were surprised and what did you learn from it? Oh, wow. When was the last time? I was surprised when you were with this question. When is the last time that I was surprised? I think. I think. And doesn't have to be more catering than that. I know there is that surprise that you don't want to disclose, but. Yeah. How personal are we going to. I think. I think the last time that I was really surprised was. Finding unlikely allies or friends in certain types of community organizing. And so I obviously work in the development sector professionally. And I think. and I also personally, you know, a community member where I live in Brooklyn and I'm lucky to be connected with a lot of local organizations there. And I think sometimes we have spent so long dedicated to our missions or our causes, that that can. In its own way become a sense or a form of limited perspective. Because, you know, if you've especially been working in a resource constrained mission, you think, you know, I already know everybody who's willing to work with us or who is a supporter of our cause. And I think the pleasant surprise for me has been that in the long term, people come alongside you to join or really champion the same cause of your community. That you might not have expected. And so I think I have learned to be more open to those opportunities as they come. Yeah. Great. Now, for somebody who is just tuning and they've just got into like minute 58 of this podcast of this episode, what is the one message that you want to share with them? And I think I also want to position these especially to organizations in the continent that I'm trying to fundraise for their missions. And yeah, what advice do you have for them? I would say. And if you let me explain it, I would say the type of fundraising approach that you take dictates what your personal experience will be. And by that, I mean, if you approach fundraising as a set of transactions, then you will have a transactional experience, which is often very draining. And it's very difficult to stay motivated or even to see results with that kind of approach. But if you approach fundraising as an opportunity to build a set of relationships, a community or a brain trust around your work, then I think you'll find it to be much more rewarding. The kind of fundraising stand that you choose. I think it holds for a lot of things because I think even if it is in personal relationships or even the work, yeah, the way you approach it really defines your experience with it. Absolutely. And yeah, amazing. Fantastic. For people who want to learn more from you, because I think you are. You're going ahead of other people in this space and they might want to learn from you. How do they get in touch with you? Well, I am always happy to make new friends and contacts. The best way is to reach out to me on LinkedIn. Thankfully I am the only person with my name. So for better or for worse, I am easy to discover. Was it not second? Are you the first on LinkedIn or are you the second? The second what? As in when you do a LinkedIn site, you'd always see Shao and Dewit, first, Shao and Dewit, second or. There are no other Shao and Dewits that I'm aware of with my spelling. And I assume it will be spelled in the podcast title. But with my name spelling, I am the only one. Okay. But I request, please send a note telling me why you're reaching out so that I know why we should be connecting and what it is that you want to talk about because if I receive a request without a note, then it leads me a bit lost. So do that DM and if you are sending a request for connection, please explain a little bit. to where you want to connect. - Exactly. - Amazing. Thank you so much, Shawan, for being with us on the episode. I think I've learned quite a bit from the conversation and this is what the podcast is about. Sharing information, sharing knowledge and understanding of what is happening in international development. And also inspiring that next generation of nonprofit leaders that will take this work forward. So thank you so much. - Thank you so great for being here. - Amazing. - Thank you for listening to the Impact Compass. We hope that you've enjoyed the session. Please remember to subscribe, rate, and share this podcast. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, juliasbea.com, or wherever you find your podcast. Until next time, go ahead. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)