Episode 11: Daryl McGraw, Formerly Inc

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Welcome to Unaddiction, the podcast. My name is Dr. Inzinga Harrison. I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction medicine and co-founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that have helped them along the way, and the formulas that allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. I am so excited to tell you about my book. Unaddiction, six mind-changing conversations that could save a life is now available from Union Square and Company or wherever books are sold. Darrell McGraw is the founder of Formerly Inc, which supports anyone returning to the community after incarceration or inpatient addiction treatment. Darrell's personal journey through addiction and incarceration has prepared him to be a voice and advocate for those who still find themselves caught in the vicious cycles of addiction and recidivism. He is a certified addictions counselor, recovery support specialist, and criminal justice professional who has served as the former program director for the Yale University Department of Psychiatry and director of the Office of Recovery Community Affairs for the State of Connecticut Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services. This conversation was so fun from Darrell's recipe and secret sauce for his magic formula, as well as at the very end, the most important thing he wants people with addiction to unlearn. So welcome, Darrell. I am so thrilled that you said yes to coming on the Unaddiction podcast. I haven't seen you as probably two years now or three. That's been a minute. I think it might be two or three years. So I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for the invite. I'm always going to come through. Yeah, I appreciate you coming through. So, Unaddiction podcast, we created to bring awareness to Unaddiction Book, which just came out in January 9th. And the purpose of the book is really to change the way we think about addiction, which can then change the way we feel about people. Who have experienced addiction, which can change the way that we treat them. And so the idea is like, unlearn what we think we know that's not right. Undo the stigmas that are killing people, uncover the conversations that we need to have to start making a difference. And so this podcast is a series of conversations with people who have had their own recovery journey and we talk about wherever our hearts and souls are. And what are our hearts and souls take us? Cool, cool, man. I'm in. So with that intro, tell the listeners whatever you want them to know about Darryl McGraw. Oh, man. Well, once again, think you heard it invite. So many of you said, "I'm a girl. I am a person. What I like to identify as a long-term recovery." Which means I haven't used a substance since the May 7th, 2007. So yeah, I'm excited about that. But that also for me, my journey comes with, that's the last time that I was in the back of a police car. That's the last time that, you know, 'cause I'm also a survivor of police brutality. And, you know, that was also the last summer that I entered a prison system, not on my own accord where I got to leave. When I was ready to leave. But that's also so. My story comes with my recovery journey comes with the incarceration. And I spent 10 years of my life in and out of the correctional system. Right? And what I call the installment of play, which means that, you know, what going, I would go in for a few years, come back, and go out and cycle it in and outside. The death for about 10 years of my life. And when I really started to pill the onion back, and I realized that addiction was a root cause of pretty much all my incarceration and/or interactions with all enforcement. Every time I was either going to get a cell into it, I was doing something that was addiction related. That had me involved with myself with the criminal legal system. Yeah, it's not an installment plan that we would recommend for anybody, right? Not by any means. Not at all. No, no, no, definitely not that. But you know, definitely was, that was my, that was the journey, right? That was the thing for me, like, cycling in and out. Couldn't be a, couldn't be a right comfort girl, why I had to keep starting over. And so we actually met, when I saw you in this documentary, uprooting addiction. And what we spend a lot of time on in the book, unaddiction is looking at the root causes for addiction. So you said, I noticed that a root cause for my prison installment plan was addiction. You and I met, and you are educating us on how you came to understand the root causes of your addiction. Are you open to sharing that with us? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the root causes, I mean, like, so then I, then I went, you know, thank you, you know, love the platform, I love you know, being here talking about that, because what I was talking about it, it makes me better. It makes me keep, it keeps agreeing as some of us like to say. You know, so I talked about trauma, we talked about trauma in a rooted addiction, right? And one of the root causes for my, or one of the first traumas for me was my dad leaving when I was six years old. And when he left, he told me I was the man at the house, right? I don't want to give away all the good stuff, so I really want you to listen to go check out, or I'm bringing a dictionary, and then let's stop it up from there. But really having the, just understanding that for a long time up until like, I didn't even know growing up in the inner city, growing up in like, in violent environments. I didn't even really know I was a trauma survivor, or I didn't even know I was like, you know, because everybody, you know, we like to say it was the air that we breathe, right? So I didn't even know that I was even impacted by trauma, right? And my first trauma being my dad leaving, but then growing up in the hood, if you will, I started to witness some violence and so on and so forth. But it's time I was 14, I became a perpetrator of violence. So that same violence that I was witnessing. And then I got introduced to Crackle King. And you know, and I had some double the marijuana drink beer. I'm old school, so I'm gonna say I drank four years, right? So, you know, I did that, but it wasn't until I was introduced to Crackle King and I found something that could actually numb the pain that I was feeling, which I couldn't even identify the pain that I was feeling. Crackle King did something different than anything else for me. And it was numbing the pain of what I realized later in life was the pain of being, you know, my dad abandoned our family. That's six years old and telling me now it's a minute of house. Yeah, and so we break down kind of like into these six conversations, biological risk, psychological risk, environmental risk. And what you're talking about, we address kind of in the childhood psychological risk, which is this concept of ACEs. And so what you're describing is one of the adverse childhood experiences, one of the ACEs, which is losing a parent. But then we also talk about, which I think is really important, Darryl. And I saw your YouTube, your TEDx talk on this. Yes, that's it. Yeah, so I definitely want you to tell us about the TEDx talk. We, you know, examined the ACEs in the book and the ACEs are really about what's happening inside your house, right? And the Philadelphia ACEs project now has done a lot of work on what's happening outside of the house and touches on this concept that you're talking about also, which is urban trauma. And so yeah, talk to us about that. Yeah, urban and/or community trauma. We're starting to see a lot of people start to see the impact of that. Philadelphia ACEs project, what are we actually going to be talking on Zoom in that TED talk that I was, I don't know, for sure to do was, you know, trauma, trauma, trauma, untact is trauma, untreated, right? So, you know, that external like that, that, you know, you know, I remember growing up and older people would say, if he keeps messing with you, hit him in the head with something, and he's like, "Oh, what's happening today?" We know that that's probably not the best idea. That could lead to a false recommend on that course, because it's end or worse. Right, so we know that that wasn't the best advice, but the impact of like, you know, being poor, poverty, food, food insecurities, all of those things, right? Or, or, and we know, and I know your listeners know it's important to acknowledge when they just started understanding me, trauma is that it's not the actual event, it's the impact, right? It's our response to that event, right? And that's what we, you know, had to learn that, right? So, it wasn't the fact that, you know, it wasn't my dad, it was my response to it, because you know, I grew up in an out of brother, right? And if you know, you were tough for my brother, his response to that same event, maybe different, or you and I could witness something, you know, many people had the unfortunate pleasure of watching George Floyd be murdered right before eyes, right? And the response from me being a survivor of police brutality, I saw when I saw George on the ground, I saw myself on the ground, many of us saw ourselves on the ground. So we could, we understood that I internalized the outstriamitage by that, where somebody else could see the same thing and not street, or see the same, you know, have the same experience. So it's how we respond to that, right? So how we respond to that. And then my also part of my response to trauma was using substances, right? Using crack cocaine, crack cocaine marijuana. I always like to say that I had an intimate relationship with crack cocaine marijuana, right? Which means it was the only thing that I was dedicated and oiled through that I did every single day no matter what range, leaves. No, I was going to get my drug choice. So understanding how necessary that was, for me though, I realized that, you know, once I was able to, and this is not for me, right? We talked about me, for me, but once I was able to identify that, my, you know, my dad leaving was in me. That was in on me. That was his stuff. And when I was able to identify that it was, this was the trauma. And this is what I was trying to know. The substances became easier for me to leave that behind him and try to move on with the life. Like so, you know, we're working with people who, you know, all of this recovery journey and who also suffered from some type of trauma, that trauma, and things that I've experienced and things that happen or things that I witnessed didn't change, those things that happened, but how do I live in this life with those things that have happened to me? Yeah. And when we think about, like, SAMHSA has the trauma-informed framework, they have the four R's. And one of the R's is recognizing the signs and symptoms of trauma. And I think we've come a long way and we have a long way to go, but recognizing that the symptoms of trauma do not always look like flashbacks, right? Sometimes they look like drug use. Sometimes they look like hungry, angry, lonely, tired. It can look like so many things. But so, talk to us, Darryl, we have this concept in the book called the Magic Formula. And the Magic Formula says, if you know the root causes of the addiction, biological, psychological, and environmental, and environmental is the physical environment, but also the cultural environment that you grew up in. And then also those same three biological, psychological, and environmental today as an adult, then you can put together your Magic Formula for intervening in whatever addiction. And this applies beyond addiction. But one of the things I'm hoping for for this podcast is that we hear an infinite number of root causes of addiction. And then we also hear an infinite number of pathways to recovery. And maybe somebody hears something in your path or maybe they hear something in the formula you're working today, that they think like, oh, I might try that or oh, that might work for me. And so can you talk to us about how you came to understand trauma as the root of your addiction and how you came to understand addiction as the root of your incarceration. And then how you use that information to set yourself on your recovery path. Oh wow, wow, we're talking about a recipe, a lot of recipe. We want all the recipes, Darryl, part of teaspoon, this cup of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have those sauce, you have some put a sauce. Yeah, you got some for the sauce. I'm going to try, I'm going to try, what I'm looking at, what I think about it in a break it down in the two things. So when I was, when I got arrested, the last time, May 7, 2007, right, I got arrested. It wasn't my first time. I had already been assaulted by police. I was on a quarter million dollars bond and curse read it. Nothing was going right. And I was in my cell and some guy to this day, I don't know where the guy was came by. I said, man, I got this book free to read. And I was like, man, if I was reading books, I wouldn't even be in prison. I wouldn't be in jail. I don't want to read no book, man. Can't you see? I'm struggling right now. Because I know, no, no, I want you to read this book. And so he came back, he slipped a book on the door and the book was a perporship in life by Rick Warren, right? And I've known sure, and people have heard of it before. But I mean, like it was for me, this, like it was a 40 day spiritual journey, right? And those of you that have heard of the book, it's a 40 day spiritual journey. It takes 40 days to read it. You read it chapter by chapter. It's 40 chapters. When my core day was 41 days away. And I'm a spiritual person. I'm believing God. And I love God. I know God loves me because I would not be here with you today if this wasn't so, right? So I'm thinking, oh, man, God must have sent me this book. So I'm reading this book day by day, writing in this little book saying, look at me, God, because I'm thinking God's a buzzman. I'm thinking that God's been attention. Because you think God's a buzzman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, listen, you see me writing this book, you say me right? So I'm trying to buy it. I'm trying to make another deal. Wouldn't be. So I'm writing and I'm writing it. And you know, I'm writing like one line and you know, then I close the book. And I go to sleep. But by day 26, I got to be honest. I started writing and I couldn't stop. I'm just couldn't stop writing. I was like, you know, or I want to do this. I want to be a better dad. I want to be a community because we're in the street. We're not even a part of the community. I want my neighbor to know my name. You ain't going to know my government. I don't want you to know nothing about me, right? But then when you make the transition. I want you to know this is my house. I want the police to know this is my house. K-Sweets breaking something. Something looks odd here, right? So we I want to be connected to my community. I want to be a coach to my community. I want to be a good dad. I want to be that. So I started writing and I couldn't stop writing. And by day 40, I had already felt like two days notebooks that they give you and jail had already felt like two of them. And what I call today my five year plan to successful reentry and recovery, right? And I wrote it and it was like, you know, I want to I like have pine a sky dreams of I wanted to be I want to be a homeowner. I want to go to college. I want to get a master's degree. My job is I'm still facing all this time. But I had already had this road. And you know, I remember in the beginning of selling saying to God, I said, man, God, I really want to go home. But if it's not your will, man, I'm good because through that process, I have found purpose, right? And I found purpose in my purpose was to be here with you today and others and other places. Every chance I get to use my story as a light to guide others out of darkness, right? And I believe that you and I and all of us that are on this journey are on the underground railroad, right? The modern day underground railroad and what our job is to do is help free others, right? We go back and go back in whether it be through this podcast. Am I going to the present or me in the street or me being someplace using this story and dragon others out of that darkness, whether it be of due to trauma or and or addiction or flaking much. So through that process, I found this purpose and that purpose was to use my story as a light for others, right? I went to court the next day and I got four years. I didn't get released, but I was released. I was free. I was mad. I was on this journey. So and ever since then, every day I wake up, I'm on my feet on the floor like, how could I help? What can I do? How can I be of service? Right? Because when you're in addiction, and I know for me, when I was in addiction, it was always about me. I always had to get run it off the top where I was robbing, scamming, scheming, I had to get run off the top. When you make this transition and you become on this recovery journey, I call it right now it's about others. How can I help others? So you know, you always call me be like, yo, I'm going to try. I'm like, narrow, I've all been moody. I'm in a building because and no, I'm important is never about me, never about you. It's about others. It's about somebody that's there that may be struggling. So, mom, my mom, you know, who never gave up, right? So it's about that. So for me in that process, that was the way. So the addiction similar I had to, you know, find a way to stay on this path, what works. So, you know, we talk a lot about recovery capital. We talk about those little wins, right? Like whether it was getting job, then it was that. And then because I had that road map, those little wins were already kind of highlighted. I want to graduate college, not them that twice now. I want to own a house. I own two. You know what I mean? So I want these things, you know. And it's really not about the material things, but it's about these accomplishments. Whether it be these little things that remind you that you're on the right path, that you're on the right path. And you know, even when we get into situations where they're struggling, like I've been through some major storms, where I'm talking to God, like really made a couple of a can we just get one way without all the storm? Can't you just give me a million dollars? I'm telling you, I know what to do with it. But you know, it's always what you know, there's no, you know, so I always have to remind myself that, you know, in order for you to be a really great fighter, you have to be in some fights. In order to be a seasoned sailor, you have to go through some storms. But before when I went through those things, I was looking to reach out, saw myself right when I was in the thick of it. I was looking to to medicate. The problem doesn't go away. I just numb the situation. So today, I know I got to go do that to get to the other side. And then when I get to the other side, number one, it's either a blessing or a lesson. There's going to be some reason for it. And we can no longer continue to deny ourselves going through those processes in order for us to be better. Yeah. I love. Okay. I have to unpack so much of what you just said just now. So. Oh, man. Sorry. No, you got me. No, listen. I was incredible. There was no way I was going to interrupt you at all. Starting at the beginning, one of the things we say is like, your path to recovery is your path to recovery. But one of the ways I think substance use disorder treatment, I'm doing quote unquote because people on the podcast can't see me with my fingers gets it wrong. It's like there's only one way to start. So like, NA is the only way to start or detox is the only way to start or residential programs, the only way to start you started with a book, right? You started with a book. And so they're an infinite number of ways to start to somebody gave you that book. So like I love this underground railroad imagery that you gave us. Like you keep going back because I was going to ask you the same question about prison. I know prison can be a very traumatic place for you to choose to keep going back. And so I feel like that's part of your underground real world. That's part of your magic formula for today, right? Yep. And then talk to us more about this recovery capital because I'm here with you, but I want to make sure our listeners get this concept and can think about it in their own lives. Yeah, that recovery capital is those little wins. It really starts out as little wins. Maybe it's just getting the email. Maybe it's just getting the job. Maybe it's just getting a GED. You know, without work with people, I'm like, you know, if you had a magic world, what would be the thing that you want to do? Oh, I want to be an astronaut. Okay. Well, we can try that. But maybe you need your GED first. So how do we get you to that path? So those wins reassure us that we're on the right path. I mean, we can't just keep losing, right? And then we also have to learn through this recovery capital. We also have to learn a new way of life, right? For me, like getting high, right? We get, you know, use substances or, you know, we are trying to numb this pain. We're doing all this stuff, but it's not progressing us in life. At least it wasn't for me. So therefore I started to see these things as progress, progress. People was I got to start to, you know, after a while, I got to start to know who I am. So I'm more able to talk about my feelings, most of us. We even talk about the things that upset me, right? And those are wins. So this capital that starts to build up, starts to build up this confidence in you. So when somebody either wronged you or you don't feel right about it, or I get to tell you, like, well, this is making me feel this way. Now, being a street dude, right? I never really was into this is how it makes me feel. And you make me feel right? I would show you that I am upset with your behavior more so than being able to articulate, like, listen, this is upsetting me and this is why I'm feeling this way or no, you're not going to treat me this way because I know I'm worth it now, right? There was a time, you know, I remember one time on this journey. So they said to me, oh, and I was a counselor at the time. And somebody said to me, oh, you think you all that? I was like, you right. And in person said, well, you ain't supposed to talk to us like that. You supposed to encourage. I am encouraging you, but you said, I think I'm all that. You wait. I do think I'm all that because there was a time in my life that I didn't think I was anything. I was anything, right? So of course, I think I'm all that. Yes, I'd dance to the beat of my old drama. I got music played. I got the theme music when I'm walking in because I today, I have, I have a great, so got to work it. I'm worth it. And that recovery capitalist substantial. My bank is full. My, my regular bank, maybe that's so pretty, but my recovery capital bank is ridiculous. Like you know, and I stand on that, I stand on that because I'm always putting it in there, whether even this is going in my account, right? Being on this part of the fact that you asked for people, I mean, now people ask you to speak, people ask you to come play. Because people want to hear you, people want to work with you. You know, those are all wins, right? So yeah, yeah, I'm killing it in the capital. Yeah, I've got, I got a lot of capital. I got a lot of capital overflow it. So talk to us. Okay. Okay. All this pockets I could have. All right. You're talking here. Wow, listen, I'm going to get out much. Okay, picked up never recovery capital. Yeah. So okay, the magic formula, we have heard some of the pieces of yours. It sounds like a very central piece is purpose. Yes, absolutely. And a very central piece is ensuring you are filling your recovery capital bank account. Can you talk to us like share specific examples for how you do that? And like I said in the book, we talk about biological formula, psychological formula, environmental formula. Yeah. Can you talk to us about which of those buckets you're, you know, getting your formula out of and water some discrete examples that people might try. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, so for me, like I'm an entrepreneur. So I'm an entrepreneur. I, you know, to the journey, I want to, I want to increase my, my presence and motivational speaking. So I search and I look at quotes and I write things down and I connect with people. I try to surround myself with like my, my people, my, my core friends are all business owners. They always say you want to be a business owner. You got to hang out with business owners, right? So I don't, I don't, I don't involve myself in the negative conversations. We don't go down the road talking about drug use and, and we used to sell drugs. I don't, I don't involve myself in those kind of conversations because those are not profitable. Those are not moving me forward till my goal. So therefore I move differently, right? I like to, um, you know, I like to dress nice, right? So I, you know, when I can, when I can, you know, I, I'm always in, in suits and it's really funny. Like, you know, I, I wear a lot of suits and stuff like that. But, you know, like I said, you know, my, bringing what I was watching those gangster movies and all that stuff like that. I was people are trying to be gangster. But movies I watch these dudes wear suits. I think you know, the needs, I want to, I want to do that. And you know, but then I moved to words, how can I remain authentic self while delivering messages while being a part of the, but I'll be in a part of a process of solution versus being on something else. So I'm always trying to sharpen, I always say iron sharpens iron. I'm always educating myself. I'm always looking from new ways to sometimes either re-in or enhance who I am. So I'm studying and doing a lot of that, taking, taking classes. I do things like that, you know, and you know, that's really for the mental, right? But, um, really trying to, you know, be of service for others too. Like, you know, brother, who just is 16 years in prison. He, um, he's doing really well, but he got sick. Like everybody's just flu season. What have you right? We're getting sick. So he couldn't pay his rent this week. So he called me, some, man, I'm struggling, you know, you know, and this is one of the things that trips us up. We always talk about pebbles and boulders, right? The boulders are the things you see. The pebbles that trip us up, right? Yeah. So he can predict that he would be sick and be sure on his rent this week. So I call one of my friends who runs a recovery organization. Hey, I got a guy that needs rent for the week. Oh, no problem. Right? So enhancing relationships. I have a lot of good friends today that I can call my relationships are not transactional where you know, you give me this. I give you that. We can call each other and I don't have to, it doesn't have to be a different take. So I'm being able to do that, being able to, you know, treat yourself, not teach yourself, right? So being able to do those things for myself and being able to be more independent on myself and being leaning on myself. Well, I will be remiss to talk about faith and how important faith is to me, right? Everybody's journey is different. People have different things. Meetings are amazing. I love staying connected to the recovery community. We just want to recover conference recently in Stanford, Connecticut, it was huge. But being able to go there and still see people, maybe I only see them once a year, but I see that you're still on a journey. I'm still on a journey. We are still here. We are still in the fight. So that also helps go into meetings connecting with people. You know, what does your network look like? I always say my network is my network, right? What does that look like? And what kind of conversations are you having? But I think also, you know, I'm a dad, right? So being present for family, my 24 year old daughter is any day now having a baby with, I am like, I don't know when I'm going to use that. This will be your first grade. We're not going to be. This will be your first second second generation baby. Yeah. Why are we using? Why do I have to go? So we got to call people grand. We're going to say this is a fucking generation. I consider a raise your baby. Okay. What's this baby going to call you? I don't know. I'm struggling. I'm struggling. I'm struggling. I don't like grand. I don't know why. And I always say, well, Jen is going to have to be pop. And I'm not. I never saw myself as a I don't know, I'm gonna not to figure it out. But any day now, my twin, who my first kid, born when I was in Karsha, read it. And you know, by those choices and recovery, I was able to watch her graduate, eighth grade, high school, get her first apartment, help her with kidder license. You know, by those choices, I would have been present. And that's what being when this recovery, reading that book in 2007 made me available to be ready for this kid, be able to, for them to call me and be like, hey, that, I need, and you know, and you know, I know when I was in active addiction, I was worried about that. You know, I was worried about if I was going to be in a position where my kid calls me, can I help them? - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, you know, and that's a real thing. Like, you know, maybe it's not, maybe it's not my own territory. Maybe it's just being present. Maybe you know how to fix a car. Maybe you know something, right? But just being able to be present was super important. And if we go back to that five year plan, that was part being a diet, being a better diet, being available, being available to them. And so, you know, my son is last year, he was 19. And when I was 19, I started my first, my first prison bit, he started his first college, you know, I, and I, you know, and I was able to pay, which I didn't like. I was able to pay. - You didn't like actually paying, although you liked being able to pay. - Yeah, I was, when they told me how much they needed it, I looked at him and I said, do you see what's happening right now? So being able, man, am I the reason I'm being able to pay, right? Right? We have to make choices, right? Many times I had to make choices in the street. Some of them go bad, whatever, but I had to make these choices. And when we're on this recovery journey, we have to make choices every single day, right? I have to make a choice to not use, not drink, not do this, not do this, and not do things that put myself in a situation that may prevent me from being available later. You know? So yeah. - Yeah. So I mean, you just ran down about a bajillion and 32 pieces of your formula, right? - Yeah, that's the sauce. - And you said the sauce, right? - That was the sauce. I mean, I asked for it to you gave it. I asked for it to you gave it, right? - Give it a sauce, you know. - So many little pieces that folks could grab out of there if it feels like it might be a fit for them. - Right. - And like the point that I want to emphasize, I feel like I could categorize your formula into two big buckets, which is pouring into yourself and pouring into others. - Yeah. You can't pour from an empty cup. Like we got to know that. So it's super important to understand that take care of you first. I got to take care of me first. - Yeah. - Because I tried it. I tried to pour from an empty cup and it just is hard and it's stressful. And you can't help those of you before you help yourself. You know, you can't do it. It's impossible. - Right. - And if you can, let us know how you're doing it because I found it to be very difficult. - Yeah. And I think what a lot of people struggle with Daryl is not even realizing my cup is empty. Or trying to emulate, you can't be downward. I told people, it's not going to be me. You got to be you because she was working for me as I'm working my program. You got to work your program and you will be successful at that. Every time you try to do something different, I never, you know, you can be creative. You can do a million things. What I did might not work for you. 12 staff worked for me, but it might not work for you. I always say, if somebody says, man, I found what I'm going to do eating tomatoes. I'm going to say, you know what? I know somebody did it to me. I know they did it. As a day we want you to live. We want you to find your past. Some people find it through religion, right? And they go to church every day. And they do this and they do that. And they find their space. You got to find that tribe. And then run with it, you know. And then sometimes, you know, and I'll say this as I've gotten older, I've learned that we outgrow people too. You know, there are not, everybody's not going to come in the journey the whole way. That was probably the hardest lesson that, you know, people that I started the journey with, the people that I was like, oh, no, God, but I love them. I want them to come. They say, nah, this is where they get all. This is their, just as they stop in order for you to grow. Or like, you know, I was, she's the furniture, right? If I want to put a new couch in my living room, I got to take the old one out. So sometimes you got to move some stuff around in order for the new stuff to come in. And it won't fit. Even unless you take the other stuff out. So I had to learn that. I had to learn that. And that was a hard lesson because I think of a, I'm a people pack rat, right? I like to keep people. I like to pack rat people. I like to keep everybody in, and it's just don't work like that. - Yeah, yeah. No, it's so true. I love that imagery with the couch. Like, you have to make space. - You have to. - You have to make space. And I also want to double click on what you say. You should just be the host. Okay, you could be the host and then I'll be the guest. - No, no, no, no. You know what I'm going, this is your thing. - I'm just jumping in. Let me jump in it. - Yeah? You just asked the perfect question. That's all this easy. Yeah, you know, you know, it'd be right. You like it, you like it. You're right. - I loved when you said, your formula is your formula. And so like that is literally the heart and soul of the message that we're trying to send. You said, we want you to live. Find your formula and work with it. And I think also like just like everybody that started the journey with you will not be on the journey with you the whole way, your formula can also change over time. - Mm-hmm, it does, it looks different. It looks different. And you know, man, as we get older, we learn that everybody's not going to clap for you. You know what, I was really surprised about that. I was like, oh look, I'm waiting. I got this award and they're like, yeah, good for you. Right? Because they're going through their stuff. And if you're going through your stuff and it tends to be then the people who like, you know, Facebook says, I have over 2000 friends. I don't even know all these people, but it does. But when it comes down to it, and especially on the tough days, you know, you might get that one or two friends. - Yeah, you may have that one or two friends. - Which why it's so important. Said number one, have that capital. You gotta be kicked up in that capital when you need to reach in. I need to reach interest. I need some reminders. Wait a minute, please some stuff. Right? You're not being able to have that and understanding that. You know, everybody's not going to clap. Everybody's not going to clap. And sometimes these people that maybe trust as family members and or what have you, they might not, 'cause they're going through their own things. And that's what I'm saying. - Yeah, they may not even have the ability to clap, right? - Wait, that's okay. And that's okay. - That's okay. - Sometimes I had to clap literally the loudest for myself. Like, yo, I am winning. I am winning. And sometimes that comes in the forms of me playing very loud. You get my car. I'm very low to me. And but just really celebrating just and being, you know, I think for me, one of the most things is being humble. I want to do things I talk to God the most about. No matter how successful you allow me to get, please let me remain humble. I don't even want fame, success, money, wealth, whatever, without humble. I don't want it, I don't want it, 'cause I already know. That's not going to do good for me. That's not, that's not all right. And if I can't remain humble, have a lot of stuff. I like nice stuff. But I don't want it if I can't remain, if I can't be humble with it. - Yeah. And I mean, humble is like an adjective. And I really see the way you turn that into a verb is the service word that you do. - Being able to get back and people see that. Like they see that you don't, I mean, we don't have to do this. I don't have to be here. I don't have to come here. I come here because I choose to. I don't have to do these things. I'm good, you know, I'm good. But I choose to be where I am. And because that's the work that I've chosen. That's the right on this earth is to give back. I always say, God, listen, use a whole bunch of these things. He lets us have all this nice stuff. But that's nothing. That's those are just tools. The work on the earth is actually what are you doing? And you want to be that person like even quote unquote, when this second generation baby is born, right? And questions are asked, what did you do when George Floyd or anything happened in the world? Where were you? What were you doing? You want to be able to answer that? I want to be able to answer that. I want to be able to say, well, I did this. And this is what I did. You know, I've accomplished a lot of firsts in our, in our state as a black man. And I'm the first this one, the first that. So hopefully at something day somebody says, right, and about me in black history, you might think you know, like, you know, wait a minute, boy, you know what? Right about a boy. All right. So time is flying because you're dropping the sauce. Yeah, yeah. About half of the time I remember to say at the end of the episode, I'm going to ask you this question. Yes. Remember the name of the book is unaddiction. Unlearn what we think we know. Yes. Undo stigma that's killing people uncover the conversations. And so if there is one thing that you want people to unlearn, one stigma you want them to undo, one conversation, you want them to uncover. What is it? Yeah. You got to unlearn that. I think for me is that we're not our, [BLANK_AUDIO] the worrisome state, right? We make my states where we're going to continue to make them they don't define us, right? So stop listening to that negative messaging and replace what positive. I had to unlearn that. I struggled with that. Like, you know, the, we call it imposter syndrome, right? No matter what, I'm always getting these negative, oh, you know, dessert to be here. Oh, this is going to happen. And you know that, that, you know, we call it tragic or, you know, catastrophic catastrophic, catastrophic thinking. Why do we think like that? How can I can't win? You know, my mentor who passed away a few years ago when I was going through the storm, he came over and I was like, you know, I was like, oh, and I'm known likes me. And he's like, you know, and I was going through something. And he said, well, why not you? Why not? And I was up. Like, I hate when he did that, right? He was like, why not you? And so now I embrace that. Why not me? You know, when I go through a storm, I say, you know what? I'd rather it be me because I'm built for this versus it be somebody who can't, who might not be built for this. This might be the final straw. They might take actions otherwise and go and do the storm. I'd rather it be me. I'll take that all day. We know we are the storm catchers. Right? Let's catch some storm twirlers. I'd rather go through that. So, you know, unlearn accepting those negative messages about yourself and you make a mistake. You know, own it and keep it moving. So I would unlearn that. That would be the first thing because that's going to, that's going to propel you into this world. Like, you know, I've been going through stuff and people all even call you and they'll remind you how bad your situation is. They're like, you know what they said about you. You know, I know. I know that's all right. That's all right. No, how are you going? I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. I mean, I'm just checking on you because man, I mean, if it was me, I know if it was you, you'd be hurting right now. But me. I'm staying, I'm staying 10 toes up. Man, let's go. Let's go. If you're not, because I know the other side, when I get to the other side of whatever trials and tribulations I did, it will be 100% stronger, knowledgeable and equipped with that that you'll never be able to get me like that again. You'll never be able to use that. You'll never be because I'm, I'm skilled. Right. Yep. Yeah. I love that so much. So I'm going to use that to close us out. You are not your biggest mistake. Yes. And I want to come back to something Darryl said earlier. You think you all that? Yes. Absolutely. You are all that all that, all that believe that. You are all that. You are all that. You need to tell them tomorrow today. You know what I heard? I want that. Exactly. Thank you so much for coming Darryl. So we'll put in the show notes. We definitely need people to check out the documentary uprooting addiction. We definitely need them to check out your TEDx talk. Yeah. That's true. We are. I'm treated. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Formerly in in Connecticut, but we were a while. We trying to be worldwide is that we are the first criminal justice reform consultant organization fully staffed by people who lived experience of the criminal justice system. We do technical assistance. We do talks. We do workshops. We talk about reentry. We focus on reentry and recovery. And that's one of the things that does my passion. You know, the TEDx TEDx is something that I'm super excited about, but really being able to work and try to employ my goal is to be the largest employer formerly incarcerated people ever. Like ever because I'm just all that. Ever. Yeah, ever. You know, because you know so many of our people get denied access to employment and housing because of their criminal background, we smile at that, like bring that to us. So let's see how we can work with that. Sometimes we can help people. Sometimes we can't, but most of the time, you know, if nothing else, we create a community of like many people and we shoot them out of get on the other side of that struggle. Follow me on follow me on IG. Harry. Tubman. Not Harriet. Harry. Tubman. Eat. See you. Follow me because I'm trying to get more followers of my daughter. So you got five thousand. I got like two. Come on, man. Hey, me up. Follow me. Follow me. She'll me out. Amazing. And congratulations on the second generation, baby. Oh, thank you. Thank you for the term. We'll be using it if we know we might break you off a little. You could just you could just call the baby 2G. Yeah, yeah, you know, that's what we're going to do. I like it. I like it. I love it. Thank you so much for tuning in. And if you like this episode, please check out my book on addiction, six mind-changing conversations that could save a life. Available at Barnes & Noble, bookshop.org, Union Square & Company, Amazon, and wherever books are sold. If you like to this episode, please share it with someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five-star review. That helps us reach any and everyone who may be looking for support in the face of addiction. Guaranteed Human.