Episode 109 - The Athena Project - With Jordyn Gray - Part 5

This podcast is recorded on the stolen lands of the warringery people of the colon nation and I pay my respects to the elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening here today. Sovereignty was never seeded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to Reclaim Me. I'm your host, Madeline Heather. Reclaim me as a true crime podcast, told by those at the centre of those crimes, the victim survivors. The general public often hears stories of victims' survivors through the lenses of perpetrators or the media. We're changing that narrative here. These interviews are raw and honest so a word of warning is necessary. Discussion and topics may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. So please use your discussion. If you need help or support, please see the suggested resources in the show notes of this episode or contact your local crisis service. Hello, fam and welcome back to another episode of Reclaim Me. I'm so excited to bring you our fifth and final part of Jordan's story. Now just to remind you that if you haven't already listened to Jordan's story, please go back, I think episode one or part one starts at episode 99. So please go back and listen to it in its full entirety. This has been such a pleasure for me to be able to record alongside Jordan over multiple sessions. And to bring you such a comprehensive and in-depth discussion about the story that she wants to share, and to be able to go into so much about the Australian Defence Force, and to learn as well about different things, about the way that the courts work, about the way that different members of the ADF are treated to give some cultural background, and to really raise up the profile of what it is she's trying to raise awareness of, which is how people are not speaking about or giving voice to sexual assault and crimes like this that are happening within the Australian Defence Force. Now I'm so excited as well to really try and platform what Jordan is trying to do through the Athena project. So just make sure that you go to the links in the bio to check out our website, check out the Instagram page as well. All of the links will be in the show notes for this episode. And at the end of this episode as well, I'll do a little bit of a spill about exactly what she's trying to do in addition to what she explains of it as well. So thank you all so much for coming along with this journey. And let's get stuck into our last part with Jordan. I really couldn't fathom even going back to work because work no longer felt safe. Bases no longer felt safe because I felt like I could be targeted anywhere. So I had started to receive multiple messages on social media, like of people like saying that I was lying, of people saying that I was, I had just done it to ruin his life because I had regretted what had happened and like, and that was that extended off of social media. And I received them on the defense protected network. Like I received that on my work email. So like I could put a name to it. You can't send anonymous messages on the DPM. So I knew where it was coming from. Like on the defense system. I knew who was sending them. I reported them. Nothing happened. And I like I from that day forward from the day that I got back from that court case and the day that that verdict came down. I never put my uniform back on. That was the beginning of my what was what became my medical separation from defense because I no longer felt safe. I no longer felt like I could do anything inside the ADF because I had tried the February before to go and conduct a course. Like do training essentially which was expected of me as part of my job as a junior officer. It's expected of everyone in the ADF. But I went on a junior officer development course and one of his friends was there. And on one of the nights out it was I think it was the last night of course. We I went out for dinner with the course and he was on an adjacent course and he happened to be drunk and walked over to me and the pub and said, "Oh, why why are you trying to ruin my mate's life?" And in front of all of these people who had no idea what was going on. So that said to me like, "No where is safe. I can't go on a course. I can't go to work on a base. I can't go and eat in a mess because I don't know who I'm going to run into." So it was essentially like this this feeling that I was I was always surrounded that that people were going to come out of the woodwork and find me and make me feel unsafe. And I just felt like my reputation had been damaged. So there was no recovery for me for that. So I essentially pursued. I didn't want to at the start. My medical officer said, "Look like it's your choice. Whether or not you want to medically separate or whether or not you want to give this a go and stay in." And I pushed it for a long time and eventually it was my last who was my last commanding officer and he said, "Jordan, I truly respect you for what you're trying to do for the brave face that you're trying to put on. But you've got no where left to go." He said, "I genuinely think the best option for you here is to take a medical separation." And he will probably be listening to this because he is still one of my biggest supporters and I have so, so much time for that man. Like honestly, the fact that he was able, like that must have been so defeating for him too to come to me and go, "I can see how hard you're trying. I know you want this. I know you're passionate about like your job and helping people and being in the Air Force because that means a lot to you." But he said, "From where I stand, it's no longer safe for you to be here." Like, he knew that and he was a man and before any of this, like he will be the first to tell anyone that he never knew about anything to do a sexual assault. I was the first person to teach him that. He never knew anything. He did all his own research. After I came to him and said, "This is what's happened to me." But he knew nothing beforehand and he knew nothing of the extremities of how the system fucking fails victims. He didn't know that. So for him to come to me and go, "This place that he has called a job for 30 years is no longer safe for you." Like, that's a huge fucking call for a straight white man to do that. And like that to me said, "Jesus fuck, like what am I up against here? Like this is too big for me." So I eventually did, like I pursued it and I officially medically separated from the Defence Force as of April of 2023. And I think it's interesting as all, like that you said, you felt like you were surrounded and the people coming out of the woodwork. And it's almost painted it in as way as if these like Gremlins and Goblins that might come out after you, not that you said it in that specific way. But I think what I want people to know and hear as well is like, obviously that was actually fucking happening though. Like I don't care if it's on social media and people just turn it off. No, it's not your job to make your surroundings safe. It's not your job to not have to receive vitriol from other people that weren't involved. It's not your job to make your works safe for you when other people are attacking your work. So it is coming from all areas. I can only imagine how much scarier that would have been seeing how many people who were high ranked, being involved in this vitriol. Somebody threatening you like that saying, well, what doesn't she come and talk to me about it? That's just another form of victim blaming again. And you know, I think the thing that came to my mind as you were going through all of that again was, I'm sure that people would say some, not people like everybody, but I'm sure that there are some people whose thoughts and minds and processes are going to go to, you know, like she could have just not said anything and things like that. And it's like, no, so you've been vilified not because of what happened to you specifically, but because you said something and you've not been medically separated specifically because of what happened to you, not because of that because the institution that surrounded you did nothing but make it a fucking nightmare for you. They didn't support you. They didn't believe you. They promoted the alleged offender. You know, it's this idea of people that have been sexually victimized, having their lives ruined. It's not the violence usually itself of the event. That's something that with support and with care and with love, we can all move on and live very wonderful lives. And you know, I always say that as a positive thing to people like this is not the end of the road. It's something that is a part of your journey and a part of your story. And many of us will go through different forms of healing to try and get through that or to get to a place where it doesn't hurt so much anymore. But that's not why you medically separated. You didn't separate because of that specific thing. It's no. Every single other thing around that. And that is only the fault of the people who did those actions. It's the failure of the system. It's the failure of the people. And these individuals who are doing this and I just, you know, when people look at culpability, to me, we always skip over and we miss the actual root cause of the problem. And I think that's the other thing as well. Like had you been sexually assaulted and how the complete care, the proper investigation, the people wrapping their arms around you and making sure that you felt safe and secure. Even if again, through all of that, had the process gone through where you weren't being treated so fucking differently from the offender, had your workplace actually done the right thing and looked after you, had you not had to be constantly, constantly vilified by other people once he was found not guilty. Then this would be a very different outcome as well. Like it's just, I'm sorry, again, my voice is getting really high and frustrated because it's just, that's, this is the impact that people's actions have made even outside of the offender. That's what blows my mind. That's what people need to hear as well. This is their actions. This is the air forces bullshit Yeah, and that's like that is my huge Issue and the thing that like drives me forward now is not what happened to me like I'm I'm well past that It's this it's the upholding of like incorrect systemic Functions is what got me at the end like it was the fact that I could no longer be protected like I think I had Have one person at one point go. I want you just post to a new unit and I went well How do I know that an officer in that unit or someone in that unit doesn't affiliate me as that person like who was involved in that case Because like that's what it was like like that person that case like how do I know that like how do I know where is safe now I don't because these people don't wear a big sign. Yeah, they don't wear a big sign on their chest saying like I Supported XYZ like they don't do that so these people could have been hiding anywhere and that was my point like I went on I went on a I went on a random course away from my home like away from my home away from my posted locality And I saw someone and someone saw me who knew what had happened So how the fuck am I meant to know even if I posted to a new place and why should I have to post to a new place in the first thing But anyway like how would I know that that place is safe? How would I know that that place has allies? How would I know that that place are gonna believe me because it's not like my recovery Through that was not just gonna go away overnight or now that there was a court verdict given like that That doesn't negate or take away the fact that I'm still healing and I'm still recovering Like I think a lot of people miss that they're like oh there's been there's been a verdict So much it must just mean like everything's over and we can get on with our lives like that doesn't work That's just the closing of a chapter and the start of a new one so that you can actually begin your healing But for me that chapter hasn't even started yet because there are still so many investigations happening inside the ADF So I can't even close the book and go Peaceful side like I'm ready to move on and actually heal I can do all the work and I am doing all the work now on myself and on my mindset on my health and nutrition But I still can't close that book. I still can't close that chapter because it's still ongoing So it's not just something that ends when a verdict is handed down or when when you decide to leave a career like me like It doesn't happen you've still got to work through it and I think for me like that's the problem is like the investigation is still ongoing And it's just like it's it's never going to be the end of the chapter because it's just started off 45 different other fucking stories and Even when those things like close down even when those investigations shut that doesn't mean that we're not going to do other things to raise the issues that they've caused like EG Not having your dad as a fucking witness like there's shit like that that just makes me Absolutely wild and it is if anything it's opened more things for you. It's not a closure thing And I hate when people say that oh at least you've got closure now. It's like I've got closure What the hell does closure mean? I'm sorry. No, I don't have closure You know you took on a system and you lost that does not mean that you deserve to be bullied or where And like you was saying that really nice officer dude the guy. What was it? Like a high-commoning off fire ranking my CEO. Yeah, I'm such a civilian Hey, it's okay. You're a higher ranking officer Who's my CEO? Is it my commanding officer? Yeah To like to for him to know that that was an unsafe space for you and that was his suggestion Like the fact that there was no recourse for him to make that better or do better. Like that tried Do you know just like like he he had done all of this research to know that like which way the verdict went He went right these are my options that I can pursue when Jordan gets back to work after the court case is finished He did all of that research and he tried Everything and he like bless his soul. That's why I have so much time for him because he went out of his way To make sure that he knew exactly like the multiple different avenues that he could take to try and start new action inside the ADF Because like as much as the civilian case had failed he wanted to start like a case inside the ADF and he tried everything that he could And he was like he was at his wits end when he like pulled me into his office that day and said Like I know you don't want to do this, but it's it's there's not there's nothing left for us to do we've tried everything And like that was that was huge Like for him to say that is devastating. Yeah, it was I could I could tell that he was trying to stay strong In that moment, but he was at his breaking point as well and I recognize that and it was so hard For me to accept that because it was also hurting him and for him to see that and go like I can no longer protect her Because like that's not to say like I don't have the same boss forever I post like we post every two to three two to three four years whatever on a cycle inside the ADF So you always don't have the same boss. So he he knew he knew what exactly what I was saying He knew that the next person who posted in may not have the same perspective as him So I wouldn't be safe there. He knew that if I posted someone else may not be an ally so I wouldn't be safe there So he recognized that and went we need to like Help you and preserve what's left of your mental health at this point like we need to make an executive decision and go This is where we tap out and like that's it's great for him to have that foresight But it is also an incredibly scary thing that he's done all of that work And it's it's not only affected him but you and in the eyes of the wrong person that's a blame towards you And again, this is this is you being victimized by processes and systems and him being a secondary victim as well in in terms of The effect mentally as well like your your father your partner these are the flow on effects and the ripple effects of these things haven't it's so devastating you are actually turning all of this pain And your passion and your desire to do the right thing and protect people um Into something new and we have mentioned the Athena project before but do you mind time? Listen as a little bit about what you've got going on and what you've created Yeah, absolutely so the Athena project at the moment is absolutely my pride and joy So when I decided to medically separate from defense in April of this year I I could no longer tolerate stank silent and the longer I thought about it, I thought No, it's like someone needs to start something someone needs to start this conversation and someone needs to bring and Represent veterans at the table like this conversation is happening nationally We need to bring veteran voices to the table So I had a think about you know like what do I do like how do I do this and this is all like unheard of for me Like this is completely new and completely like Like it's it's it's like I'm sailing Like a boat and I have no idea what what is even on a boat like I just I don't know what's happening and that this is also like in in the midst of me trying to navigate civilian life Um and trying to figure out like what comes next, but I decided to found a not for profit And I called it the Athena project um and Athena For those who don't know so Athena was the goddess in Greek mythology of wisdom warfare and craft randomly enough But the two that I focused on were wisdom and warfare. I thought such a strong emblem and symbol for for military Women um for for one as a focus, but military people in general to draw to because she was known for her strategy And she was known for her fierce logic and like she lived unidentified like completely like in her feminine She was like she'd never ever strayed from that, but she was strong She was known for her heroics and I just I loved that but the story for me and finding a name was so Like it's so tumultuous and for people who want to read about it, it's on the website um and I'm sure Maddie will put that in the show notes But yeah, there was a couple of different signs that that proved to me that the Athena project was like the like Athena was going to be the name And and I guess the motivation for this so um my partner and I met um and we decided to adopt a cat very soon after and He didn't know that I had an absolute love and adoration for Greek mythology I think it's so powerful and so moving and you you look back and you read everything and you read the myths and legends that's surrounded and it's just empowering Um, so I loved it and we had been together not a long time and we decided to adopt this kitten and he said to me Hey, babe. What do you think about the name Athena? And I just looked at him and went We haven't discussed Greek mythology like why that name and he just went oh no the cat we met today was like Pretty strong and sure of herself. So it seems kind of fitting and I went Okay, like Athena sounds like a great name like and I went um We haven't spoken about this but like I love Greek mythology and he went oh, okay cool like that's what a what a cool coincidence and I went okay Um and then a couple weeks later we um we took a trip to the sunshine coast to the markets at your monday Um and we're just walking around the markets enjoying like a beautiful sad day with a nice coffee and the sunshine and we just moved into a new apartment And we needed some artwork and as as you do at markets you have a look at all the beautiful things and we walked past this stall And like I don't know what called out to me it was just something and I was like flicking through this big pile of portraits that she had And she was like oh, you know like I draw them all myself and um Like I work at all on on on my local studio and I picked one out and I said to Nick Oh, like this is perfect like I'd love to give this to my best friend and he went Oh, okay, but make sure you pick one for you as well And I said okay, so like flip back through and I found one and I went yeah This is beautiful like this just calls to me and there were hundreds of portraits like hundreds of portraits And I picked it out and I said these two please like this one's for me and this one's for my best friend And she said okay Like would you like to meet the people like like meet the feminine figures that you've picked out and I went Meet them and she went oh, I write biographies and I named them based on like what like prompted me to draw that figure And I went oh that that's beautiful. I would love to meet them And she pulled out the first card for the one for my best friend and then she pulled out the one for me And as I looked at it I looked at my partner Nick and I went you've got to be fucking kidding me and her name was Athena And I went you are fucking kidding like what the heck like what is this coincidence like this is just next level And as we're driving home from the sunshine coast that day I said to Nick like what do you think about the name the Athena project? And he went oh that sounds pretty cool like that sounds strong. What are you thinking like what's that for and I went I Think that's what I want to name the organization And he went that sounds amazing So then started all the work for me. I guess to start the Athena project and To come up with the concepts and I pitched it to a couple of friends and they said that is a great idea And it's just it's one of those things that it really brings out like the happiness in me to be able to like do this and And give back and try to make change and bring awareness to the conversation and you probably you can tell like I can feel it in myself like I'm talking about it now and I'm like oh my god I love everything to do with this and because it makes me like so fulfilled and I feel so aligned talking about it and It just it feels like it was something that came to me at the right time and the fact that like my cat is called a Thena and like the it I honestly I think it's like the word that I use the most in my vocabulary at the moment like between yelling at my cat Who doesn't stop screaming of a nighttime? To talking about and trying to spread awareness of the Athena project It's it's it's a word that never leaves my vocabulary and I had the absolute privilege to go and speak at my first speaking event in August of this year so a couple of months ago and I went and I did my first speaking event about what the Athena project is and my story inside defense and This lady in the question and answer like in the Q&A section at the end she put her hand up because hi Jordan My name's Thia and in my brain I immediately went holy fuck she's Greek I'm gonna get in so much trouble for like cultural appropriation or I've missed something or I've like Incredibly represented Athena like holy shit. I'm about to get done in in front of 150 people like oh my god I'm I'm a I'm a falsity like oh I'm a liar or whatever and she just went no like I loved your presentation And I loved everything you had to say about a Thena She goes I'm actually Greek I come from a traditional Greek family and I went oh that's so nice like me on the microphone trying to compose myself like holy shit What she's about to say and she went you've actually just missed one thing when it comes to a Thena and I went Okay, and she went Athena was always on the winning side She always chose the right side of history and I went oh my goodness like and that was just like the biggest feeling for me to go This is the right direction like this is what needs to happen and this is how to do it and these are the conversations that we need to have together I have full body chills like yeah, it was just so I just up and down my back I'm freezing because I just keep getting goosebumps like it's just bit by bit That's just it's such an incredible story. It is. It's amazing and I just love how holistic it is and how much it means to you and how much How passionately you're speaking about it and again, it like goes to show what I was talking about before as well It there is so much life after abuse and it's not to say that people who experience is have to do something like what you're doing but it is so powerful when you can and if you can do that but it's also just to show that this doesn't always have to be You know that that horribleness for you you know You've got this little joy and life and laughter and things that you get excited about and I think that's just also a wonderful emblematic thing to kind of show people and live truly But do you mind I guess yeah if anybody wants to get involved or if they can support or how can they how can they help you with their Theta project and and where do you see it kind of landing in the next few weeks months and years? Yeah, great question. I mean we're looking for volunteers So the way the Athena project works and the way that I've intended it to exist as an entity is is a couple of different ways So our utmost priority is veteran victims of either care And it's just it's something that's not really brought to the table So in defense there's support mechanisms for people who are victims of sexual violence and sexual harassment and sexual assault But they're they're not tailored services and they're often not victim led completely So there's like a 1-800 number that you can call in defense But there's no physical advocacy service where like say for instance for myself when I Was going through what I was going through there was no person that I could call who could travel to come and just be with me and Sit with me as I was in hospital or sit with me as I was giving my police statement or sit with me back on base when I was having really difficult Conversations with my chains of command and because of everything that we've touched on in these episodes about how defense is so Intricate and there's the added complexity of having to navigate the defense system as well as the civilian legal system We kind of like there's no person. There's no advocacy service that can bridge that gap So the the most pro like the biggest priority for a thinner project is what we're calling the advocacy support network So we're looking for volunteers around Australia who want to volunteer you don't have to have defense Experience or you don't have to know anyone who's in defense, but you just volunteer based on where you live So so for me I live in Brisbane so I would be an advocate and if and when I hate saying when but it is When an incident of sexual violence happens like close to Brisbane or on a defense base near here then Somebody might contact the Athena project either it could be the victim survivor themselves It could be someone it could be their partner could be their best friend could be someone from their chain of command They could reach out to the Athena project and go hey we've got a victim survivor who's going through this at the moment like very early stages Do you have any trained advocates in this in this area? And I could go yep, I've got three trained advocates in that area. I've got a female who's 50 I've got a male who's 40 and I've got a female who's 26 and they might go Victim survivor would feel more like comfortable with a female who's 50 because it would remind them of their mum And I'd be like absolutely so then from the Athena project we would then contact that advocate who has gone through our training program which our director of education and training Emma is Kindly putting together and it's fantastic So they would have gone through that then they would be then rolled out to be with that So they would then go and be with the victim survivor and help them with whatever they need and it's not just Going in and giving them advice. It's taking lead off what they need So if they just want someone to sit there and be a shoulder to cry on who is Nothing to do with the situation and nothing to do with their chain of command Then that's what they'll be if they need someone to give them an understanding of like what the police want and what they're asking for That's what they'll be if they want someone to explain what's happening inside the defense system administratively That person can give them that and it's like a one-stop shop essentially where it's not someone wearing a uniform It's not someone who's part of your mandatory Chain of command or mandatory support network. It's someone who is actually there for you and Genuinely cares about you and it's not a box-ticking exercise So because I guess it was just born out of a need for me like I felt so alone going through my My situation and I know so many others who felt the same and that was the reason that I came up with this idea in the first place So I would love if people could volunteer to be advocates because we need to grow it nationwide And because defense is all over Australia we need people everywhere So at this stage we're planning to run three or four training courses a year so basically on like a quarterly basis because we are not for profit And we're running very short at the moment, but yeah I'm still calling us in a build phase, but I would love if people could volunteer to do that and like I said before you do not have to have Any idea about what defense is or like what any of the terms mean because in the in the training package We cover a general awareness of what everything means and what position Like what what I guess acronyms mean and what positions mean and what people do and there's also going to be a hard copy book That each advocate will receive so they'll do the training They'll have the book and they can refer back to it if and when they need to When they're engaged as an active advocate. So yeah, I guess that's one face of the Athena project that we're looking to build But we obviously are going to heavily rely on volunteers to build that network It's just so amazing and it's so true and it's You know the fact that this doesn't already exist You know, I'm so grateful for you to have done that the fact that You know, you've had to go through this experience yourself to identify the major gap that's there Just again goes to show how much victims survivors are being led to let down on so many different levels by people not Create something that there's a massive need for. But for you to be able to do this and lead this project, I think is absolutely amazing. And for people that can't volunteer or don't have the time or capacity at this stage to volunteer and do the training, what would you suggest that they can do to help? Is there, can we get on social media? Can they donate if they've got financial capacity to do so? Yeah, absolutely. So we're still in the stages of setting up as a not-for-profit to be able to take donations. So, but there is an ability to like contact us directly through the website and we can organise that privately. We are of course, because we're not for profit, we're going to rely solely on donations to be able to do what we do and do the training that we're doing. And yeah, it's all about growing the word and truly growing them and mentor means about talking about it and really getting this out there. And that's not just within the defence community, it's like as a whole, we just need to talk about it and be aware of these issues and really just escalate the discussion of it. So I would love if people could get on social media, we've recently done a rebrand. So we're looking all nice and pretty and aesthetic. And I'm absolutely an awe about designer who has done all the work that she's done. So it's yeah, just talk about it, share our stuff, like drop us a comment, drop us a like, anything, just to grow the momentum and grow the conversation that's happening. I love it so much and all of those links will be in the show notes for this episode. So all you've got to do is open wherever you're listening, click on the website, send through an email, click on the social media, give them a follow, repost something. And you know what I love saying as well as when people take a selfie or something and tag us in it when they're listening to the episode. So if you're doing that, then tell us because we love to hear it and we love to see it, let us know what you're thinking about it as well. But I think more than anything, Jordan, thank you so much for coming on over four episodes, for sharing so much, for being so detailed, for being so caring, for taking us as well, many of us civilians through kind of that, the nomenclature, the the back end, like what kind of happens and how it works. It's quite intricate. And it's it's given us, I think this added dimension that otherwise would have made it really difficult not to not difficult to understand the situation itself, but it's added so much more value into the into us listening to it. And I just I can't be more proud of you for what you've created and how much impact your episodes already so far have had on so many people. So just thank you so much for coming on. You're just an absolute firecracker. You're a you're a thinner. Oh my goodness, stop that so flattering. Thank you. Like the fact that I'm here and able to do this, it just speaks volumes to like the necessary need that is there for it, right? And I had someone come up to me at the speaking event that I did and she said, look like I've wanted to do something like this for years, but I can't speak the way that you can. And she said, I'm so glad that someone like you was finally talking about this. And I went, oh my goodness, it was just another one of those moments that I went holy shit, like I'm just I'm so lucky to be able to do this and I feel so fulfilled in doing it. And it's so important. And I truly believe that it's like now more than ever, it is so important that the general public understand what defense is because for those that aren't aware, there's currently a Royal Commission into defense and veteran suicide. And it's going like the reporting and the findings of that are due to come out halfway through 2024. So this conversation is not going away if anything, it's going to escalate. So the fact that people should be educating themselves on what that means, what the problems look like and how we can better take care of our veterans communities, like the time is now we can't wait until it's too late until the report findings are published. Like we have time to prepare now before that report is handed down and now more than ever, it's time to listen to veterans and what they truly need. And I'd love if people can jump on board and and and truly help us build this message about the Athena project and about sexual violence in militaries because we need to talk about it and it needs to be brought out from under the rug and the light needs to be shined on it. So thank you, Maddie, for bring like for being here and for just like creating this space and this platform for people to talk about and I'm just I'm so grateful to be able to bring this one into the light. My absolute pleasure and you know it's not just it's not just Australia and you know if you're listening from a different country and you've got a dialogue to add them please do get involved. And if you've got questions send them in I'm sure that we can wrangle Jordan back again to come on there is a question it's been it's honestly been so wonderful. Yes so not a lot to you. Everyone gets a chance to get involved so much and you know this is the beauty of these kind of conversations as well is it brings and draws people in and and you know it's just it's given I haven't had so much feedback about any episodes in my life yet because it was just so many people even messaging me saying there's a girl that I knew in high school and she was a cadet and this is and it's so so many people have connections and ties to the defense forces and so many people are aware of what's going on and that undercurrent that undertone it just goes to show that there is an awareness out there that there's a problem there's a knowledge there this isn't new information for the upper echelons of these organizations who are pretending like there there is no problems these are known issues by so many members of society so you know you're shining a light on something that that people know needs to change and I think that we're in the best place as you said right now to really you know I was going to say dig the knife in but that's not the right kind of thing. You know what I mean like we're really going to like yeah I know exactly what you're going to because it's kind of fucking do it yeah it's no longer okay to accept these things like the fact that is like people genuinely understand that it's something that occurs like it's it's not just something that we should accept as a generalized risk as a female or as any person as any gender joining the defense force it's not just a risk that we should accept like it needs to be spoken about and bringing it out is the only way we're going to do it and I mean the Royal Commission is going to unpack a lot of things and I think for a lot of people who who genuinely like to prefer their life under a rock it's going to really shake the cage on that because the stuff that's going to come out is mind blowing and the stuff that that is still happening and by the time this episode comes out the submission date will have closed but the sheer amount of submissions that are happening they don't come out of nowhere they come because people have had bad experiences inside defense we have lost too many people to suicide we have lost too many people to negative mental health issues we need to combat that and it starts by talking about it so that's why I'm here I love it thank you so much Jordan again and for everybody listening please make sure that you go to the show notes for this episode check out the Athena project follow everything share as much as you can but thank you again all for listening to reclaim me well well well thank you Jordan great so much for coming on and sharing all of your story every aspect in so much detail something that is so important to me personally with this platform is to be able to share each person's individual story in whatever detail they liked and from the moment that I met Jordan it became so apparent that we needed to talk about this in depth not only as her story and for her to share that in her own words and in her own time but also to raise this issue which we've not spoken about in in depth at all on this podcast before which is the state of assault and the way that people are treated within the Australian Defence Force it's not new news to so many people and I think most people who have worked in this kind of area of sexual violence or as an advocate like myself or who knows people who have been in the Australian Defence Force constantly hear stories about the mistreatment of their staff the mistreatment of people and especially the misogyny that women face every day the rampant sexual violence that I have heard about within just conversations every day is something that troubles me so deeply and that is why I'm so passionate about platforming this so much and to work as closely as I possibly can with Jordan and with the Athena project not only to highlight this story is more but to help support in any way that we possibly can so I do have some more information on the Athena project which Jordan's soft launched now they've got a website live the link to that is in the bio or it's the Athena project.com.au now they are taking expressions of interest for volunteers and for people to join the team so go check it out and if it's something that you're interested in getting involved in or learning more about then you can absolutely do that. There are so many ways in which we can help to share this wider and to get more people who want to share their stories or more people who need to hear them out there so please make sure that you share Jordan's stories that you share this podcast as a resource with people that you know as well because like I say at the end of each episode you may not be a survivor yourself but you sure as hell no one and I think that's the important thing as well. If you're a member of the Defence Force listening to this now or a former member like many people who have come forward and spoken to me then I think this is something that you should share with your community as well because it is so important that we change this culture and we change the way that it's being treated because it's just not acceptable. Speaking to Jordan, just made me think so much of speaking to Camille a few weeks ago, as we talked about the state of sexual violence within universities and these institutions that have so much power and they're just continuing to go forward unchecked. So yeah, it's obviously those are my two cents, but it's been an absolute privilege to be able to work with Jordan, to talk with Jordan, to hear more about the Athena project and kind of be a part of the learning and evolution of where the Athena project started a few months ago and we're at satin now with this soft launch. So like I said, please get involved, go follow Jordan and the Athena project on Instagram and socials, the links for those are in the show notes of this episode, go to theathenaproject.com.au. Make sure that you send an expression of interest to if you're interested and if you can't do any of those or you're not interested in doing that, one of the most amazing things that you can do is share this episode. So thank you all so much for coming along this journey. And I'd also say as well, please make sure to send Jordan some feedback to send it, send her your love. It's been a lot of her effort to share this for the first time to come out of a trial with such a bad verdict to have gone through what she has and to dedicate this much time for the first time ever. So if you're listening to this as well, I guess send her your love. There's so many ways that you can get involved and change somebody's life for a day. So yeah, I definitely encourage that too. But thank you all so much for listening to reclaim me. Big love. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you do need help or support, please reach out to those Christ's Services or suggested resources in the show notes for this episode. Have a look after yourself and make sure that you're doing and taking the time that you need to process the information or to process anything that may have come up that was triggering for you. Lastly, I do have one ask. Can you please take the time to rate and review on our podcast, Spotify and any platform that you listen to reclaim me on. This helps tremendously with me reaching additional people and making sure that we get the word out there that there is no shame or stigma that should be associated with being a victim of these crimes. If you could also share this podcast with somebody you may know as you may not be a survivor yourself, but you sure as hell no one. Thank you again. Bye.