Episode 108 - Not Guily Does Not Equal Innocent - With Jordyn Gray - Part 4

This podcast is recorded on the stolen lands of the warringery people of the colon nation and I pay my respects to the elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening here today. Sovereignty was never seeded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to Reclaim Me. I'm your host, Madeline Heather. Reclaim me as a true crime podcast, told by those at the centre of those crimes, the victim survivors. The general public often hears stories of victims' survivors through the lenses of perpetrators or the media and we're changing that narrative here. These interviews are raw and honest so a word of warning is necessary. Discussion and topics may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. So please use your discussion. If you need help or support, please see the suggested resources in the show notes of this episode or contact your local crisis service. Hi fam and welcome back to another episode of Reclaim Me. I'm so excited to bring you part 4 with Jordan today. So if you haven't already listened to episodes 99 101 and 103, then I would highly recommend that otherwise where we pick up in this recording may not make complete sense. So we do have one more part after this. There'll be a part 5 and that will be coming out next week as well. But yes, I'm so happy to have Jordan back and yeah, let's get stuck into this episode. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Reclaim Me. I have a return guest back for you today. I've gotten so many messages from so many people asking when am I going to have Jordan grey back to finish up her story. Well, today here she is. Welcome Jordan. Thanks Maddie. Thank you so much for asking me back. I'm so happy to have you back and I'm so happy that we've really taken our time with sharing your story because there's like raw emotions and getting into the detail and giving it the time it needs. I think is so incredibly important. For example, one of the things that I find that I've had a lot of messages from is people that are within the Australian Defence Force who have never I think ever spoken about that. That's one aspect of people who said like how incredibly validating it is. But then also the breaking down of it that you and I have done it's been like really quite insightful for a lot of people. So thank you so much for taking so much time and going through this in so much detail with me. No, thank you and I think it's so valuable and to hear that people are getting value from it is so important. And when people ask me you know like why am I choosing to talk about this now. My answer is fairly simple. It's because this conversation and the ball is rolling inside Australia. But in my mind there's a clear demographic of people that are missing from that and it's the veterans. Like we are not speaking about anything and people like genuinely the more I talk about it people don't understand how the inner workings of the ADF function. So I think it's so important for not only people who are veterans themselves or know people who are veterans but everyone to understand how it works because it shouldn't be something that shrouded in secrecy and it shouldn't be something that people in the Defence Force have to keep silent. I think it's important for people to have a common touch, right? Like we are Australia's Defence Force and I say the royal week because I'm so used to saying it. But like we're Australia's Defence Force. So why should the nation that we're protecting not know how it functions and not know what's actually happening on the inside? And again, like why are these microcosms of society? Why do they have such high incidences of violence against women or violence in general as well? And why does nobody seem to give a fuck or do anything about them? And I mean that in terms of the police as well. For example, police have one of the highest incidences or the highest if I'm not mistaken of domestic violence perpetrators within one dynamic group of jobs, I guess. And to hear that we've got problems existing within microcosms of society like this within people who are supposed to be protecting other people from harms like this. It's quite a ridiculous kind of sentiment in many ways, right? Like it's kind of just like, hang on what? 100%. I truly think it's because like they put on the uniform and they think that they can be protected by that uniform. It's like almost as if that that in itself is like, oh, I'm innocent, I'm wearing a uniform. And in my mind, it just doesn't cut it. And I think it's also because they think they're going to get away with it because they know people who are taking care of these things or they know the people who are going to be doing the investigating. And that's not to say that that's like a blanket coverage for everyone. It's not. But I think like you are right. And like these, the true incidents rate is not actually known for the defence force. And I'm not quite sure about all the other like first responders. And I'd love to see that. But the true incidents rate for defence is not known in terms of domestic violence, sexual violence, anything, gender violence. It's just not known because the defence force does collect data. And this is something I was going to touch on today. But the defence force does collect data from its members internally. But they're not anonymous surveys. So like they have demographic identifying questions either at the beginning or at the end. And that's why people in defence do not want to self-report or do not want to say like what's happened. So for instance, like in a safety survey, I once completed on a base that I was posted to. The demographic question said like what gender are you and I went oh you know like I was identifying as female. So I said female. They said what rank are you and I said I'm a flat lift tenant. And then they said what what job do you belong to when I said logistics. So the answers that I wrote came back in a month to me through that like the commanding officer and he said, Jordan why did you write this? And I said so how do you know what I wrote in the safety survey? And he said, oh I can see the demographics at the back end. And I went, oh how has anyone like meant to feel safe because he and I said, well how do you know it was me? Like there's no names in it and he said, Jordan you're the only female logistics officer at squadron. And I said what that don't call it anonymous if then you're going to use the identifying demographic factors to figure out who's made a complaint or who's self-reporting or who's saying that something is happening unsafe in a workplace. Like we're meant to be using various sources of information. As a trusted source people should feel safe to disclose things in there that's what they're for. But that's the culture inside the ADF and truly as like as someone who has served and who has been part of those surveys, I 100% think that's a contributing factor to why we do not know the true incidents right not to mention the results of those surveys and never publicly available. So how can we actually know? I mean there's no incentives to report correct information and this is what we see across many institutions and when Camille came on to talk about end rape on campus and the stop campaign that they're working on with all of the stuff around the I deserve safety survey that they completed and how much wonderful work they've been doing to try and make university campuses more safe. You know there are some university campuses around Australia that are genuinely saying they have zero incidences of like harassment, sexual assault, etc. But there's no way to collect that data and information and I think it's the same kind of thing we've got this backwards way of approaching reporting data and figures on these things rather than incentivising organisations to actually do something about them. We're incentivising them to report like in-advert and covers like figures on incidents rates that can never be known rather than looking at responses and ways that people handle and deal with things that are like it just to me it just feels like there's no way that we can get around this and you know we had the Royal Commission into institutional child sexual abuse as well and it's just this institutional level of power and closing ranks and passing people often moving people around and different types of things that just mean that none of this really ever gets through and this substantial really important change that needs to happen just isn't getting through yet. Yeah I could not agree more it's it's almost as if like we're not like the organisations aren't a bludge to publish accurate data and if the data that if they are publishing anything it's more for reputational like I guess assistance or like reputational protection on their part then it is actually truthfully reporting and I think like there needs to be like watch dogs the wrong word but something that governs that right like it like in my mind how are we meant to fix a problem if we don't actually understand the true incidence rate of it and I don't doubt like the Camille is trying it has like multiple ideas for for universities and I would love to see that brought into into work for the defence force because it needs to happen like it there's absolutely no way around it we need to understand the incidence rate in order to fix it and not just like I guess a like a cleared version a redacted version of that incidence rate to protect the face value of the ADF to the Australian public we need to understand the truly and even if it is horrific we need to understand it and we can't fix it unless we know that and we sure as fuck cannot have a police investigating police defence force investigating defence force and this ability for people to just close ranks like that's just a fundamental flaw and I think that's one of the biggest shocks I think in your story as well with what you've been saying because I think so many people assumed that civilian police versus ADF police like just the dichotomy between those two things and how they run together it it doesn't seem clear it seems like a jurisdictional issue that must come up quite often depending on where, what, what, all of those factors. And that's kind of a bit scary as well that it's almost operating outside of the law in many aspects. Yeah, it's certainly not centrally governed. I mean, as much as the Defence Force has like the one rulebook for the Defence Force, if you will, and the rulebook is essentially made in Canberra. So you extend that jurisdiction nationally and then when we're on operations, then it extends to there as well. But when you bring the civilian police into the mix of that, the integration of how that looks on the ground can be completely different. And in my instance, because the, like the jurisdiction that I was in, those local police were actually very supportive to me and they were telling me like, you know, we've had discussions with the ADF police and this is what's happening. And I went, well, that's actually not happening on the base. So who's telling you that? And like, it's just, yeah, there's, there's no overarching governing body that truly controls that. And I know I sit from, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a police expert, I'm not like I don't work in the legal, in the legal field. But seeing and what I witnessed, like they did not integrate seamlessly, there was no, like this is where the civilian police ends and this is where the ADF police picks up. It just didn't work like that in my case. It does in some, certainly not all, but it would just be so much better and so much more functional. If there was a clear rule book or a clear depiction of like, this is exactly what needs to happen and this is the step by step process and there's no room for discretionary measures. Yeah, absolutely. And there should be ongoing training that police have where they do enter places like defense forces rather than them being feeling like they're out of their own environment. You know, like going onto an army base of any kind or an Air Force ADF base of any kind should not mean that somebody that's a police officer who's there to investigate these crimes, would like should feel out of place either. There should be that level of training completed for people like this as well. Because I think as well with your story, one thing that also struck me was kind of how differently it seemed like they had treated the situation. By giving like all of these other people a say in your experience in your story and what you wanted to do and say, which would never be condoned in a quote unquote normal environment. Like I'm not to say that it would never happen, but it's just so outside of normal operating procedure. Yeah. And in my case, it certainly did, right? Like it, it truly affected the end outcome and it truly affected the narrative that did perpetuate in court. And like I truly believe that there should be locality based awareness training for police officers. There is in defense. So like for me, when I posted to that locality that I was in, I had to have like regional, I guess awareness training based on like where I was in Australia. And they just gave us general context of where we were living. And why should that not be the same for police officers who are posted to localities where there are defense bases and defense communities? Because you are right, there is a bit of a crossover of how the Commonwealth law impacts defense members and how that can be, I guess, interpreted by the jurisdiction that you're in. So why is that not something that the police can do? Like, okay, here's how we integrate with defense force members and here's how we integrate with defense police or I think they call them like, so, so, so, so, like, sex poll or something. I don't even know anymore. Like, I'm just out of the lingo. But like, why is that not like, why can't we provide a generalized awareness training so that we can alleviate these things happening? Because in, in my situation, the, the fact that there was discretionary measures and I will say discretionary measures as a loose term taken did impact the end outcome and the evidence that was tended and given in court. All of the processes and systems that are in place, yes, they do retraumatize you, but there is an inherent feeling, I think, from most of the public that if you did go through something like this that you would be able to navigate that successfully. And to hear that the reason that things don't go great isn't because of you, isn't because of any other fact other than the fact that people have done poor process, they've they've not followed the rules. And they've done a lot more damage in the way of accessing and doing that. It's, does that make sense? It's like, it's just a frustrating thing to it because I think so many members of the public who haven't been through this have this kind of thing. It's just like, oh, you know, they didn't get an outcome because the victim didn't want to make a statement or they didn't get this because of the victim or they didn't get this because of the offender. But it's like, no, actually, this is a systemic problem that is only held up by failures of people to complete process properly or people who have and let their own bias get in the way. Yeah, I like it's it's so hard to explain how the legal system truly feels to go through it to somebody who hasn't had any understanding of it. And like, I'll admit, I went in naive and I genuinely thought like, you know, I've got nothing but my truth and like, this is what I'm going in with. But when we got there, it was the caliber of the evidence that was questioned. It was like, why things were taken at certain times? It was why I didn't provide more things as the victim. And when I provided everything, I even like went so far as doing pretext phone calls. Like, I did everything that they asked me to do. And then still when I got to court, the validity was on me. The questioning was on me. It was all for me to prove. And that was really hard for me because I have like, I had a blackout period and still do to this day. So I can't just like go into my brain, pluck out the memory and go, here you go. Like, I don't have that. So it was it was incredibly disheartening because everything was outside of my control. Some of that process was completely let down by the fact that you were interrogated in front of other people. You didn't have knowledge of certain things and they gave their evidence in front of you, which is just a standard no-no for police operating procedures. Whenever there's been multiple people who have been privy to or understanding of, you you remove them all from one another. It's not just from the victim in that case, but it's from everybody. It's so that you can get individual accounts so that you can prop up this person's the validity of these person statements or hear some aspects of the crime itself or the evening itself from individual aspects from different people. So those are all such important things from an investigational point of view to hold up and they just let you down so bad with that. But you've alluded to as well like this, the outcome not going great and we did go over a bit of a beforehand. But do you mind, I guess, kind of going into after you've gone through this court process, you've given your evidence, where did you kind of land after that? What was the process from finishing up your time on the stand and the both sides, I guess, making their arguments to a judge? Yeah, definitely. For me, it was quite a tough time, I'll be honest. So on the rest of that afternoon, so it was essentially a full day that I gave evidence. I'd been taken, like I was sworn in, if that's what I think that's what you say. The afternoon before and then I spent the whole of the next day on the stand. I had a few breaks on that next day and on one of those breaks I actually left the courtroom in tears and as I walked out into the hallway, I was greeted not by like my family or like my family and I had two people who were there. I had my partner and my dad. I was greeted with complete members of the perpetrators squadron of his senior officers, of his friends, because it was a closed court. So no one was allowed in the courtroom when I was in there because of the jurisdiction that I was in. So I walked out and I was in tears and an absolute mess and was greeted in the hall with all these people from his squadron and his support network because they were encouraged to be there to support him. But I had no one there. So I had to walk through that crowd of people to get back to the witness support room and I guess to find my partner Nick and my dad and just to be able to collapse and just go, I don't know what the fuck is going on because I'd just spent the afternoon being berated. And after the cross examination, like I've heard, went back in and the cross examination had finished up and the prosecutor asked some final clarifying questions, I was dismissed. And from there, the prosecutor came and saw me in the afternoon and he said, look, I understand that you'll have a want and a need to come back and see what's going on. He said, "But I urge you not to come back and sit in the courtroom." He said, "That's not just for you because there won't be any protectionary measures against you and the perpetrator, like the court's not a bludge to do anything to protect you anymore because you've been dismissed as a witness." And I went, "Oh, what the shit?" He said, "It's also because if you come back in, the jury know your face and they will be looking to you for every single reaction that you're going to give." And I went, "Oh, okay, well, like I guess, like I guess I won't. Like I was planning on coming and sitting just to understand because it like, if this was happening to me and I wanted to understand what was happening, but it in hindsight, I'm very glad that I didn't because the narrative that perpetuated would have made me incredibly angry, but my dad and my partner sat in that courtroom for the rest of that week and the trial ended up being extended into the next week. And they sat there just through that first week when we were still in the state where it was happening and they would call me and update me and be like, "This is what's happened. This is the way it's going to be." witness that's been on the stand today and obviously I knew all these people and I could see the narrative perpetuating and at that point they were calling me and I was just back in the hotel room just like I was just crying myself like crying to myself because I had nothing to do because my partner and my dad wanted to sit in court because they wanted to support me and and know the information that was happening but we didn't have anyone else there because I was 3000 kilometers away from my new home so I'd gone back to where I'd originally happened and then left my new home behind so I just sat alone in a hotel room for the rest of that week while my dad and my partner went to the court and like made sure that they got all the information they took notes and it was incredibly difficult for my dad because my dad had been a huge support to me throughout this time as I was going through these actual events so for him to sit there in court and listen to the version of events that was being retold by witnesses and my dad knew that it was all false he was like this didn't happen like Jordan called me every single day multiple times a day when things were happening because when it was all happening I felt like I was on the outside so I had I couldn't turn to any of these people anymore so I had to turn to my family to my dad and that's that's a very raw thing to share with your dad and I'm lucky that I do have a good relationship with him but he was he was frustrated by can tell that he was angry and from what my partner knew because we obviously went together at the time and from what he knew he knew that the way that those people were describing me on the stand he's like that's not Jordan that's not who she is that's that's she would never say those things she would never do those things and like that's how uncharacteristically me they were I guess perpetuating this narrative and it was so frustrating to see but in addition to that there was also issues that arose in terms of Air Force's internal policy so I had a support officer with me when I went to court and that support officer wasn't allowed into the closed courtroom because he was just my supervisor and he didn't have legal training so he was an engineer he was just purely there to provide me emotional support in terms of like a tie back to where I was posted to to my unit but what we found out that week as we were sitting in court was that the perpetrator had been afforded a support officer who was a legally trained lawyer and who actually had like she wasn't like full-time serving she was a reservist which meant that she had a civilian job but she also was a reserve legal officer in the Air Force and she had been acting as a legal emotional support officer to the perpetrator for the period of two and a half years leading up to the trial so he had been and I say this for lack of a better word because this is by perception and from where I stand as an outsider he had been coached for two years and on multiple occasions I had reached out to defense force legal being like hey can I have some assistance I don't actually understand what's happening like I just want someone to explain this to me in simple terms and they said oh like give us a rundown of what's happening and I said oh this is what's happening they said oh sorry we can't help you that's a civilian matter and it's taking case in a civilian court so we actually can't like provide you any counseling on that and I said oh okay seems fair and I said like is that in policy and they said yeah it is in policy and I said okay if I just took their word for it but it was because his squadron had found a way around things to find and pay for days for a reservist to attend meetings with him with like his barrister and meetings with him with his commanding officer and all of the inside information that was happening and this is currently being investigated by the office of the IG-80F and whilst I have the utmost respect for the officer from the IG-80F who is doing the investigation here it comes back to something that you said before and it's why do people like we're scared about defense investigating defense and police investigating police the IG-80F is defense investigating defense like that's a body that we're meant to turn to who can investigate goings on like this which are completely wrong and malicious and I would I went to them for someone to investigate this but then I didn't realize because I was young and naive that it's defense investigating defense it doesn't sit outside defense it sits within it so I have an inherent problem with that as well so there's a whole investigation unfolding there but there was so many policy breaches and because the support officer was a lawyer she knew her way around the law and she knew her way around a courtroom and she knew the things to ask for that so that she could be included and so that she could be almost sat at the bar with like the barrister and the defense legal team and she knew the correct like applications to make to the court when we were going through the trial to make sure that she was allowed to sit in a closed court my support officer didn't have that because he was just my boss and that's who your support officer was is meant to be according to policy so it's meant to be someone in your squadron who's superior to you like who can just provide like general welfare advice and support she wasn't even a member of his squadron she sat outside of that so she had been sought and plucked for her legal expertise and provided as a support officer to the perpetrator so I then felt on me that that was that was another case of the air force favoring the perpetrator and like making sure that his welfare and his needs were a priority when I had spent the last two years leading up to that pleading begging for legal assistance because I couldn't contact the prosecutor regularly to ask these questions to ask how I should better prepare to ask the things that I should be doing like in preparation for being cross-examined I couldn't ask those questions because we all know prosecutors are so very busy and they are so overworked and they're like overloaded with things to do they jump from one case to another and that's not their fault that's the systems fault but I didn't have like a independent person in air force to turn to for legal advice but he did so that still makes me really angry and upset I just I get so so beyond frustrated because it's it's just so stupid it doesn't make any fucking sense it's it's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard ever but it's not and I'm not saying to take away anything from you it's not uncommon the gunway hearing about people and I believe this exists as a rule like you probably couldn't access any of that help because the prosecution legally cannot coach you or train you in any way but the defense has every right to train that defendant so it's just like at what point which again we're training people to act at what point does do we go this isn't working this is literally not even based on the facts or evidence we're literally just playing a chess game here so like you said like he's just played a little bit of a more strategic game in terms of getting access to somebody that you didn't know that you had could or should or you were never told about like they're playing on the edge of the rules and you're just trying to be a part of this process and system and you're trusting that people are going to have your best interest at heart but it's not and you've got all of these other factors that work against you as a victim of this type of crime that's all of the processes that's everything else and the expectation that you would have to perform if you were to stay in that courtroom and also isn't it fucking whether you've got no opportunity to defend the statements that are being made against you by the people that are telling lies about you like at what at what point are we sitting there going like is there making all these allegations again so they're saying all of that shit why can't they bring you back up to defend those statements as well and secondary like I have a question following on from that what is your dad not a witness my dad was not a witness he was not called he was the first person he was the first person that I telephoned like morning after I woke up and through this day my dad is still furious about this because he was never contacted to make a statement he was like never what like he not not even contacted to make a statement so the fact that my dad was so entwined like intertwined in this and enmeshed in my story and like what happened to me and the narrative of events he was so close to it and they never ever contacted him and I genuinely believe it was because he was on the opposite side of Australia when this happened and it was just a phone call that happened between he and I but that is still like evidence that can that could have been tended and to loop back to something that you said I 100% agree and that that should be a thing like I'm the first witness who was called right so like lock me away for the rest of the week I don't care so that I don't know anything that's going on like I won't take any information from like my family or whatever who's sitting in the courtroom but call me back at the end of the trial and go hi can we verify some things that were said like this doesn't match your original statement and I don't know why that wasn't brought up because those things that did end up perpetuating as the accepted narrative in court were completely different to the narrative that I gave in my original statement to the narrative that was provided by the other people who's like I guess first report of the event was taken alongside me so how that could differ from the end narrative completely blows and like just blows my mind so I think like and what you said before about like people operating on the edge of the law you're not wrong but they were also operating on the edge of ADF law like in terms of how they were funding a lawyer inside Air Force, which is not allowed, like it's there's a whole thing happening there, like that's just not okay. But then like also on the outside, like it's it's performative, right? And it was just it was ridiculous and so disheartening and it's just and rages me because the system's not built for victims, it's built for the perpetrators. And don't even get me started on character references because all of his character references were senior ADF officers who like took this stand to defend him. So the fact is his character to do with anything, what where's your character references from your mates that are like what where's that? But I I cannot get past the fact that your dad would probably be the biggest person who holds the most amount of corroborative evidence of everything that you've said and he's not there as a person. So you've called off a phone. You've got you've got point and time and location information. You've got anything else. I'm sure that he whittled off a few texts to different people after that. I'm sure that he texts you information. I'm sure that you texted him that back. You have things in writing there. You would have so much information that would mean that he had every opportunity to corroborate your story and what was going on. I'm sure that you were telling him about the so-called friends that you had at that time and what they were saying and what they were doing. So he had also every opportunity to counter the arguments that they were saying and you were not afforded a proper I was going to say defense but it almost is a proper defense of your character. What the fuck are we doing when we're not letting in the biggest piece of information? I don't give a fuck if that's your family member or not. That is the key piece of information that sits there within that for you and your story. How dare that not be included and how dare he not be able to come in after all that bullshit was said not to defend you as a father to tell the fucking truth the way that everybody else that attends that court is supposed to do because I can imagine right now they would say he wouldn't be reliable because he's her dad. I'm sorry but everybody there is operating under the bread under the umbrella of their fucking job. You're telling me that they're not going to lie if they're told to or they're not going to lie so that they can get ahead or that they're going to lie because they don't want to be pigeonholed into being a problem person. That is an absolute bullshit outcome and I'm absolutely furious and I'm so sorry to your dad as well because how fucking frustrating to sit there and listen to that bullshit and have no recourse to be able to correct the narrative. Oh yeah. Honestly and it's like it's still something that troubles my dad because he's like maybe I should have done more and I'm like it wasn't on you. Honestly like I tended all of the evidence I gave over my phone I gave over my text messages I gave over my phone records I told them I said he was the first person I spoke to like that was in my statement multiple times like they were questioning me about who I spoke to about it and it was always my dad like that was it that's who I spoke to. So yeah it's it's incredibly frustrating and I mean it extends from there there have been multiple investigations inside Air Force into what happened in that courtroom because of the crossover between like where the morality is of the support officer to the perpetrator being a lawyer and my dad witnessed a lot of that firsthand because he spent that entire week in the courtroom. So he witnessed all of the behaviour he witnessed note passing between a support officer and like the barrister and the defend the defense legal team. So like that's that that like I guess perspective wise crosses over what the perception of a support of emotional support officer would be doing correct and my dad witnessed all of that in court. So I did my partner and in every investigation that happened inside Air Force no statements were taken from them. There was absolutely no one else in that court who could have like provided an unbiased if we're going to take that like perspective but my dad and my partner were there and they were they were the only ones outside of that Air Force or defense tech like I guess branch or like coverage whatever you want to call it but they won't ever asked to provide a statement for the investigative team. They won't ever ask to provide a statement on what they witnessed happening between the support officer and the lawyers in court. They won't ever ask to provide a support like supporting statement of evidence to say what they witnessed the support officer doing outside of court with other witnesses. They never were asked and these are still questions that I've routinely asked now because the investigations are still ongoing. I still ask this. I said why were these people not actually questioned like yes I'm reading what you've asked other people but you're not asking the right questions like you're just asking like around the point you're dancing around a point and I understand that you're all like in the people who were doing in the investigations and arguing the investigations are legally trained. So I understand that you're very well trained in the law but stop trying to protect your own. Like there is clear like there's clear issue here understand that address it don't talk around it. So yeah it makes me incredibly angry and it's my dad will likely listen to this episode and he will again get frustrated and it's something we talk about a lot but we still have a very good relationship now where we do talk about this and he is one of the big supports in terms of everything that I do with the Athena project and when I tell people that I'm giving evidence with the Royal Commission or I'm writing my submission my dad is often a sounding board that I like I bounce these things off to make sure that it's a good idea and because he has been so intricately involved from the beginning and it's it's so frustrating for me and yeah it's it's unvalidating to hear you say that because I think you're one of very few people who have also drawn that conclusion because you're seeing this and hearing this for for the first time and going what the fuck like why was that not included? Yeah and like snaps or pop a bear there like good on like being such a good dad and being such a great support I'd love to hear that like if you're listening to this we love you but I think as well like is this not an example of a complete failure of an investigation? Like you said before and I was really caught up on that language that you used and you said I provided them this I provided them that I provided them this yet within the context of the court you're just a witness you know as soon as it becomes an investigation you're just a part your piece of evidence you're you're you're a part of that you're you're no longer a part of this cog yet the responsibility to investigate the crime sits on you and if somebody doesn't follow a lead that you've given them because they've taken absolutely no care to run down every single aspect of that crime on your behalf because they're doing their job properly then you're the only person that that fails and probably I will say the wider community at large because there's a likely sex offender out there who's not been held to account and we know that most sex offenders don't only offend one time and we can comfortably say that we wouldn't want any guilty sex offender to not be operating with omnipotence within the boundaries of the ADF or any kind of cohort and we're just giving these people these green tickets and these green lights and we're saying good on you keep continuing on with your behaviour like I just it's a failure of the court system to not speak to your dad it's a failure of every review to not speak to actually let's reframe that it's a failure of the court system to not speak to the secondary key witness a key person who holds so much evidence it is completely unacceptable for the court to not do that for the investigation of the crime itself to not do that for any subsequent investigations what the fuck are they doing it like they're literally looking into that what happened in court and they're only asking people in one echo chamber did anybody see anything wrong and then the the undetermined of that is if you tell us even anonymously we do know the demographic detail on the back end of that survey babes and you will get in trouble so like just don't tell us what what we know that you know but like yeah like that's what seems to be happening and it's I'm sorry I'm not laughing at it I just it's no it's frustration it's just like the absurdity yeah it's frustration oh my goodness um no it's like it's genuinely frustration it's like you've got nothing else to do but laugh because you're like well how how much more fuffed can this get like it like I ask myself that question most days if I'm honest like I'm like okay we're here again okay sick like unreal so do you want to identify like or maim do you want to identify what I said in this survey like sure let's bring it all back up like it just it doesn't happen so and it's it's so funny and I actually brought this up in my Royal Commission submission and when I had a private session with one of the commissioners I brought this up and I said look like surface and defense aren't anonymous and like he looked at me and he goes what do you mean and I explained what I explained before and he said also people know what you're right and I said yes like that's why people don't disclose that's why people aren't honest it's why they're not saying what they're actually seeing they're just protecting the people who sit above them or they're protecting the people that work alongside them and they're perpetuating this culture of not only a boys club but like we protect our own and we don't like we don't call that anything that's bad and like I saw that happen in my case and I like it's just yeah I've got so many questions and so many frustrations but well like I know that you're going to brick by brick if you have to pull this shit apart and build a whole new system yourself and I know that you're well on the way to starting that but do mine I guess telling people the outcome I think we can all summarise what it probably was the same as mine saying what the actual outcome was. Yeah so the outcome in court which was which was given down the next week so I was dismissed Wednesday of that first week and the verdict wasn't reached until the Wednesday of the week after so I was back home in Brisbane at that point and like I was expecting a call from the prosecutor and they did call and none of it was like none of it made media in the state where it happened so my partner and I sat at home pretty much all day just in limbo waiting for a call from the prosecutor and the witness support officer and they called it about six o'clock that night and I remember it distinctly the phone rang with an unknown number and I went fuck here we go and my partner was there with me and the prosecutor like was the first to say anything on the call he said hi Jordan it's it's so and so like prosecutors reached a verdict and the like the trials now concluded and I said oh okay and he goes look it's not what we were hoping for and in that moment my like I guess my emotions started to unravel I was just I like I could I could kind of feel that it was coming and I think like it's hard to get your hopes up when you know what the conviction rates are and he said look like the verdict was not guilty and in that moment I like started to to cry and like the tears were falling from my eyes and I was trying to to stay silent so that I could still hear what he was saying but I couldn't like there were no words coming out and he just kept talking and he said look I need you to hear this when I say this not guilty is not innocent he said that the two are not the same thing and he said I need you to hear this and he repeated it like six or seven times he said Jordan not guilty does not equal innocent he owes it is not an acquittal it just means there wasn't enough evidence to convince the jury and he said it over and over again and I think it was because I wasn't saying anything and my partner was speaking on my behalf and he was like oh you know like thank you for letting us know and thank like thank you for contacting us and the prosecutor said like look like I'm going to send you my last like the statement that I like closing I guess remarks that he gave and he goes I want you to read that and I want you to know what I said and he said I want you to see what the judge said when he handed down the like the verdict and he said this does not mean it didn't happen he said I need you to hear that he said I believe you I believe you I always will and it does not mean it did not happen and it was so disheartening and like it's so raw for me and it's not something that I often speak about and I'm sure you can hear it now like it still makes me incredibly upset and it took me a few days to really be able to process what that meant and then everything got worse again because Air Force and the perpetrators chain of command tended a report inside of Air Force that read that the perpetrator had been just like labelled innocent in a court of law and as such he was promoted and essentially sent back to work as a glorified hero how could you have possibly won this there's there's no scenario in which you up against the fucking system up against the Air Force up against this fucking corrupt bullshit there's no way that you could have won that ever and it's like and that when people ask that quote or say that like oh women only do this because they regret it or because they're lying like why would I willingly put myself up for this why would I willingly submit myself for this vitriol this attack if like why would I do that willingly like that's that's not something I would ever want to do and yeah the way that it happened inside Air Force and like it was essentially his promotion had been withheld for the time that like the trial was occurring right so and after it concluded and the report was tended by a very senior officer inside the ADF and the Air Force and for it to come out and say innocent like returning him to work no actions to be taken like member has been deemed innocent in a court of law he will be thus promoted and sent back on his merry way essentially that reached me and like through multiple other sources it reached me and the message that was delivered alongside it was from that senior officer and because I held a very good rapport with my chain of command at the time so a very senior officer inside my chain of command was a very senior female and I have the utmost respect for her and I consider her one of my role models in life she like fortunately was my equivalent of like what that ranked officer was at that time and she actually gave me the information that said this is what's been said in the report and this is what ex-office has delivered alongside it for me to tell you and the message essentially was if Jordan's got a problem with it she can book time in my calendar and have a direct conversation with me which is like essentially like a big dick chest move right like it's a strategy like a senior officer going to a junior officer like oh book time with me and tell me what you really think like tell me how tell me why you think it's wrong like that's that's a very intimate that's an intimidation tactic and that was the beginning of the end for me thank you for listening to this episode if you do need help or support please reach out to those crisis services or suggested resources in the show notes for this episode have a look after yourself and make sure that you're doing and taking the time that you need to process the information or to process anything that may have come up that was triggering for you lastly I do have one ask can you please take the time to rate and review on Apple podcasts, Spotify and any platform that you listen to reclaim me on this helps tremendously with me reaching additional people and making sure that we get the word out there that there is no shame or stigma that should be associated with being a victim of these crimes if you could also share this podcast with somebody you may know as you may not be a survivor yourself but you sure as hell no one thank you again bye