Episode 10: Dealing with the loss of a pet

What's happening in the K9 industry? For all the latest news, views and expert opinions, stay right here for the K9 paradigm. You'll hear from industry leaders, experts, giants of the industry, learned colleagues, moveers and shakers, and the odd, randy guest. Get the latest insights and expert advice from both here and abroad from the people in the know. Now, here are your hosts, Glenn Cook and Pat Stewart. And I'm Lofty Fulton, and I'm out of here. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. I'm just here to let you know that we've got the Gabbina Marken over seminar coming up in February 14, 15. If you haven't purchased tickets for it yet, you can do so online. We have a event-right page that you can purchase them on. So it's a 14th and 15th of February in Sydney. A lot of people have asked me about the seminar already. So if you want to get on board, if you want to learn from somebody who's an industry professional, very sharp in a dog training practices, get on board now before you lose the opportunity to effectively train under somebody who's a champion in their own rights. So that's here at Pet Resort Australia. It's a Valentine's Day, treat yourself. Absolutely. All right, without further ado, cue the music. Welcome back to the canine paradigm. I'm your host Pat Stewart. I'm joined today with my co-host Glen Cook. And coming back, joining us for a second time is Bertie O'Cheety. Hi guys, thanks for having me. Thank you very much for coming back. It's my pleasure. Yeah, thanks for coming in Bertie. What we've talked about, too, is that we're going to look at having a bit more of a regular spot with Bertie. So rather than just having her as a guest, because she's a clinical psychologist, we thought that for several matters, we can actually refer to Bertie as our in-house psychologist on some technical matters that really need a professional edge. And let's face it, me and you probably need a favourite of psychological help and if we can get it for free. We just have to have everyone see it on our therapist. There's plenty of people who have heard me talk before and said, "Do you need someone to talk to?" So I can send to everyone who's sent my therapy. I'm amazed that I can be that person for you guys, what an honour. Well, you got your work cut out for you, good luck. Don't worry. So just so you're aware, too, there's a bit of a different sound in the studio today. We're messing around with a new mic, which is very sensitive. And we've also a mixing desk went back in for repairs. So if it sounds a little different, we're messing around with sounds as we said in earlier. So we're not audio engineers, but we're working on it and we're trying to make things right. You said to me recently, Glenn, we should get Bertie back on to talk about grief. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there has been a lot of people at the moment who've been losing their dogs. A lot of people have done it over past you've lost yours, I've lost mine. We're going to talk about that. Lauren Hoyle recently lost her dog. Josh Moran lost his dog recently. And same thing, he's experiencing a lot of pain and grief over it. This is a topic that I feel is very important that we have somebody who's rightfully qualified to make sure that we're discussing the right type of issue because it's very deep. And it's essentially inevitable. Dogs have a pretty short lifespan compared to us. So if you own one, it's highly likely that it's going to die. At some point, well, it's your dog. It is, you know, our pets have a magnificent role in our life. And what we're going to talk about today is a little bit about why does it hurt so much? Why does it hurt so much when you lose your beloved pet? But also, what do you have to do to help yourself? And if you have more pets in your home, how can you help them to cope with this situation? Because grieving a pet is a massive taboo. Like grieving a person is hard enough, but grieving a pet is even harder in today's society. Because a lot of people maybe don't understand why it's so significant for a person to lose that pet. Well, let's start with that, Bertie. I think that's a great thing to leap right into. And why is it a taboo? What is the problem that people are having with that? I guess what we have to acknowledge is, you know, the more significant that pet was to that person, the more the emotional pain will be when you lose that pet. And I don't think that people who don't have a pet understand what an emotional bond you can actually have with your pet. Something really special, you need to have had it to understand it treats for potential. And then you have a relationship with your pet or your dog. What you have to keep in mind is that that love when it's gone will leave a massive scar behind. And that scar will be as deep and as powerful and as painful to the same measure as how deep you love with that dog, you know. So to deeper the scar, the more you love your dog, and the better the relationship. And that essentially is what a meaningful life is. You want to end up at the end of your life with emotional scars because that men, you love. You had phenomenal relationships in your life. You were able to enjoy that. So it sucks to hurt, but that's the price you pay for having a really deep connection with another animal or with a human. So that's the price you pay. It's like a coin when you go into a relationship, you maybe just see the love side, but it will flip one day and then you have the equal amount of pain there. And the idea is that hopefully, if you had lots of loving relationships. There's a saying in general life that says, "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." How do you feel about that? I agree. Like I think it's better to be in pain because you love something than never giving yourself to James to actually fall in love. You know, it's. From a clinical perspective, that's definitely what we also help people a lot. That we help them overcome the fears of being hurt. You know, this is how people protect themselves sometimes because they don't want to enter that or take that risk to get hurt. So we very often help them to know it's worth the risk. How can we help you in power you that you see that it's worth that risk? And what happens in your mindset that stops you from taking that risk? I've met many people in over the term of my career that have said to me, "I've lost a dog before I can't do this again. I just can't go through it." Fundamentally, they've actually gone out and got a new puppy or kitten or rabbit or whatever they've lost. But I did say this in last week's podcast when we were talking with Andrew when we were talking about the loss of a pet like a guinea pig or a rabbit or something like that where somebody might mock the stress that people go through for losing an animal that a lot of other people wouldn't consider an important pet. But to them, that's their beloved pet. I said to Andrew in the last time that love is love, which everybody knows. If some people think it's stupid that you love a dog, my grandmother used to think, "I can't believe you have so much reverence for a dog that you would put it before your family sometimes." And I said, "Well, it is my family." That's how I feel about it. And that's exactly what I want to discuss a little bit because I want to really explain to people why does it hurt so much. So that people maybe, if they're having a situation where they are confronted with a person who does not understand that they can explain it. What we have to acknowledge first is basically, if you have a really good relationship with your pet or you with your dog you lose unconditional love. You know, if you are maybe a bit on the shy side or maybe more of an introvert communicating or sharing experiences with other human beings is a difficult thing. They don't enjoy it very often. You might be worrying about rejection or judgment. Whereas with your pet dog, they don't do those things. You know, they maybe don't give you the time of the day or they maybe ignore you. But they don't judge you. And that is a huge gift that pets offer to humankind. It's that unconditional pure loving connection. And because of that, very often pets become a family member. We can see these days that pets are so much more than just an addition to the family. They're very often part of the family and the bond that they have with their pet and the routines that they have with their pets is like what you would have with a child or someone you really care for. Like, you know, you make sure that your dog has regular mental, not mental, sorry. Medical health checkups has food, you know, doesn't overheat in summer. Isn't too cold and winter is protected. Like, there goes a lot of work into it and obviously when those routines are gone from our lives because they structure us, we miss them. You know, like, my day starts of, hey, I go and check on the dog. Is everything okay? That's how I start my day. I start my day usually with 10 minutes of interacting with my dog, whatever it looks like. That's what I exercise with my dog. So it's a huge structure for me. Yeah, for me, it's definitely when I don't have a dog and we notice this, when me and Jane's like first dog died and the first time you come home and there's no one barking and carrying on like an asshole as you walk through the door. That's the first big impact. That's the thing that I really am, you know, because it's an ordeal with an excitable dog that jumps all over you and even just comes and says, hello, that's something, some sort of greeting, that when that's missing was the first time that when we lost our dog that was like, oh man, this is this hurts. It's exactly what you're saying is a lot of my clients in the practice, the one thing that they noticed the first thing is that the noise is gone. You know, people go like the house is so silent. You know, day is no scratching, day is no barking at the door, there's no barking at the cat or the birds. It's just so quiet. Not a collar tag swinging as a dog walks around. Yeah, it's just so subtle things. But they are big, they ground us very often. So it's like you're losing a family member. And on top of that, for a lot of people, the dog's not just a family member. It has other roles as well. Like if you're a dog trainer, you're a dog. Here's your working body. Here's your wingman. And can be a part of your business and a necessary part like a demo dog or a dog you use. If a dog dies sort of prematurely young, then it could be a big part of your business and you could find yourself like, shit, I need this dog to not only use it a frame, but I need this dog to make money. I'm now in financial distress because I can't no longer do my job. I guess what I also want to say is that a lot of people see their dog as an interaction. You know, they don't talk many times. times with another person like if the elderly for instance they don't have very often a person to talk to so they talk with their pets so if they lose their dog they're basically lost their social life and I would say that it's really important that we acknowledge that this is a special bond that pets offer us and the most important thing that we also see is that pets usually without judgment witness our life they go with us through many stages you know they see us when you're angry when you're really sad like all those moments that other people have no look into our life like you know when you have your heart broken and it might be 3 am in the morning and you're eating your eyes come out of a tap who's there you cat or your dog you're not gonna put that on social media or anywhere your dog's gonna be your witness of that life journey or when you get a job off on the phone and you need to celebrate and your dog's to have cost that dog gets a cutlin is excited with you you know so your dog pick or your pet becomes your life witness there's a there's a joke that often makes me laugh that says your partner's at the front door banging to get in your dog scratching at the back door banging to get in who do you let in first the dog because it will still like you want to get inside yeah it's it's I think you know it's that pets can do things that humans can't and if you haven't had that relationship you maybe don't understand what they can offer and it depends like there are lots of variables and mediators that influence the pain level when you grieving so for instance it depends how long have you had a relationship with your pet you know who died how did they die what was to what were the circumstances of the death what was the nature of your attachment or bond with your dog like if you take your dog every day to your building site if you contractor you kind of have an amazing bond with that dog if that dog maybe was more for backyard dog you didn't have much to do with him maybe not so much of a bond depends and what's really significant in the process of grieving is also how did the dog pass did it by under cruel circumstances unexpectedly I was a really traumatic was that a lot of pain involved you know it's all those circumstances I'm sure that you've experienced that in your life as well that it depends on the circumstances and I think 100% and that affects like say out dog Ernie I had grieved his death before he was dead he was on the way he was a very old dog and he for the last two years didn't do very much and for the last month that he was alive we really should have probably put him down earlier James was different she was like more attached to the dog and certainly she was more affected by that day that he actually died but for me I almost saw that I was like okay we get to let it go like it's a it was a release really for that dog and so there I had grieved his death basically already but for another dog where it was like you find out okay like he's sick all my childhood dog that we just woke up one day and she's dead that's a bigger impact right because it's just like like getting that limb cut off straight away and it's also like one of my clients she her dog went missing one day and they looked for the dog um was a labradoral and they couldn't find it and it found the dog had been traumatized and tortured and was just thrown out of a car window in a national park Jesus so that has a very traumatic effect on the family and their children as well you know so so day try and keep that from the children surely right is that the right thing to do it was on a media in a poly like I mean a children were not that young they were teenagers or so but you know it really depends on the circumstances and it also depends on how support if you see a vet in that circumstance or how much time did you have to say goodbye was it done in a way that you felt grieved with you and I had one client and what she did and was really amazing to me was that she knew her dog was gonna die so the vet put her dog asleep and she brought her second dog in and then that that second dog say goodbye with her at that time so they created already a new memory going forward with that so it's also really important to know well in my life am I in a good place I am in a challenging space you know if you had a lot of trouble leading up to that death of your pet that might be just the last thing that you needed to tip you over the edge so very often then people come to the practice and they the GP refers them because they lost their pet it's actually very often just on top of a lot of things like they might have gotten a divorce or they might have lost someone a person in their life and then the pet died or they had a chronic illness so it's the accumulation of things that we also look at how the griefing process is impacted and then it also depends on how the person can cope how do you cope with brief are you okay with cope being having a good role model showing you how to grief hmm it's tough on you you talk about the woman bringing in her second dog I think that ritual it's for a dog that's got to be like euthanasia euthanasia euthanasia euthanasia euthanasia that ritual somehow becomes very important I feel so for my like second childhood dog she was a really super social dog she was in quite a lot of pain when she was eventually euthanasia and tried to bite the vet and he wanted to put a muzzle on him and I said like I just had this weird thing I didn't want it at all and a muzzle she'd never want a muzzle in her life I just didn't want to do it so I said look I'll do the injection because she ain't gonna bite me and she didn't and then every dog that I've had to use in these in those sense I've done it and it's like I've specifically said to the vet now I have to be the one that does that it's just probably some weird hang up that I have around it but it was like no like if you're going I'm doing it like I've chosen I should have the balls to actually do it I don't know why I feel that but I do very strongly and that's all that matters you it needs to sit well with you and you know people can't see your face right now what I can see your face and it's it's a big thing to talk about yeah it's just thinking about three dogs in particular having done that anyway it's made on it's a I'm a man I just bought but I one of the things that I think is tough for a lot of people too is that whole going to the vet experience when yeah it's a that solemn drive yeah it's a terror it actually is a tormenting thing that whole thing I mean it makes the hair stand on the and I'm sorry for anybody that's reliving that traumatic experience but for me we're all doing it together we've all done yeah we're doing it together and for Narella and I when we've had to put the dog in the car and take it to the vet and then walk the dog into the vet it's like walking to the guillotine you're in a very very vulnerable state at that point in time and then you're waiting for the vet to come in the room and you know that's it like you're living the last moments of your dog's life right there and then and you're thinking to yourself am I doing the right thing the dog is in a horrendous amount of pain something has led it to that point where Euthanasia is the kindest option that you could possibly think of for your dog at that point in time however you're still going through so many terrible doubts and I sat there with beer when we did this the last time we think he had a brain chemo he went blind suddenly he lost a lot of motor function and he was going downhill at a rapid rate and I couldn't watch him decline so badly he was 10 he was bumping into things but he basically had Alzheimer's so we made the appointment I was in shock about it and in denial Narella kept saying to me you have to do this you know you have to do it and I said I know I have to do it but I also have to cope with what I'm doing as well I have to be able to bring myself to this point where I grids the right thing and the last night I spent with him I was sitting up with him and he just looked shocking and I thought you're a cruel bastard you really need to move on this now this dog is you mate you've got the ability to do it for him you have to do it and I'm not going to lie to you I was absolutely devastated like Narella and I were hailing in the in the vet clinic I mean we were shattered and yeah that whole vet thing is hard it's it's anthropomorphising or the what's happening but you always sort of have the idea that dog knows as they're going to the vet like that dog Ernie he never resisted going to the vet and because he's back end was you know completely ruined and he's getting his cortisol injections quite regularly he'd love going to the vet because he knows I leave he's feeling he's better than I arrive but that day he put the brakes on and it was like no I'm not walking through the door and I'm sure that he he picked up on you know yeah exactly he knew this this is not gonna end well I'm not sure he understood that he was going in there for the last time but he certainly did not want to go in like we actually had to well that was the other thing like I didn't want to drag him in there by the call I said carried him so that you could avoid that resistance you know what I mean and then they give you that little click yeah damn you're carrying me I know what this is good of me and whether they do or not I don't know but it certainly feels that way and and it's it's what we know from research purposes is that we know people feel often a lot of guilt whether it is that you feel like you can't afford more medical treatment or you feel like guilty because you had to make the call you know grieving is super messy and grieving is a big taboo in the society because everyone has a different grieving response and it's very often not talked about and I sorry that I put you on the spot pet but like you hey I'm a big sportsman like I'm not supposed to have that fluffy feeling it's like that's me one so it's easy to just brush things away but then you do grieve you have to acknowledge that okay this is just going to be messy. A grieving process looks like you're going to the beach and you're getting hammered by big waves and then you can't get out of the water and you're just getting you know you're being tumbled and what it will just brings it on and you just feel like you can't get a breath because the sets of waves are just so strong but when you go swimming in the ocean and you would be tumbling the most smartest thing you can do is that you stay fluid that you don't tense up right so you need to roll with it. Then you have grief in your life it's really important that you just are curious and accept what's coming your ways okay you can go through all sorts of emotion in a heartbeat you can be happy about joyous moments and then you can be really sad or you can be angry or then you can be resentful then you can be super fun. frustrated and you can be really hopeless. There's so many things that you can go through in a heartbeat. And it's really important to know everyone has an individual process. There is not the recommended way to grieve, but you really should acknowledge it's a gradual process. It will take time and over time those waves that will hit you for probably become less strong or you will have more time to breathe, you know. And it also depends on triggers. Like some people have triggers like, you know, going into a certain building or hearing certain songs, for example, or certain tasks. So it depends what it is, but it's really important to know. It's totally okay to feel shocked. It's totally okay to feel angry. It's totally okay to feel really lonely and a bit in despair. And what I really want to encourage people is the worst thing you can do is that you avoid those things. So if you try to move on from them, despite being in a safe environment where you could share those things, like it's not like at work where you feel like it's not the right place. Like it's within family or friends or in a good environment, in a nourishing environment, you need to feel those things as unpleasant as it is. That's the way to heal. Yeah, it is unpleasant. It's very unpleasant. So you'd say that's important is to confront that unpleasant part and not run away from it. Don't try and bury it down is to just ride through it, go through it. You have to throw it. Yeah, you gotta, I mean, it's super inconvenient, but it's not about that. It's in the end, if you wanna heal, you just gotta. Let it out. Accepted and open up to it, basically. And there are certain tasks that you have to accomplish during a successful morning process and that can be a really long time, like there's no time frame to it, but certain parts have to be accomplished that people are coming out the other end. And one of them is that you first of all have to accept a reality of the loss. And if you keep denying yourself that if you go, if you keep brushing it under the rug, you kinda have an accepted that reality. You know, you kinda like still. What you have to do is basically make room for it in your heart and accept what that means and the consequences, essentially. Do you know what I mean with that? I think I do. You mean that except that your life has now got a change and that that pet or whatever was a significant portion of your life and if it was a leg on the stool, you now have to sit differently on the stool? Yes, so it's acknowledging the impact it has. And the most unhelpful things you could do is that you stop yourself from thinking about it, like we call them "thought-stopping procedures" so that you go like, "No, I'm not allowing myself to go there." The next thing would be that you only hold on to positive thoughts and you don't look at it how it really was. Like, if you had a dog in your life, they probably were good in bad times. You know that you have a realistic view of the journey with your dog that you don't idolize it. It's okay to also have had bad times with your dog or pet. The next thing is that you need to expose yourself to the situations where you were with your dog, like don't avoid situations. You need to face them, even if they're really painful. If it's really painful, get some support, get some help, but you need to face it. You need to accept the hate as his reality and you can alter your processes around it. I think that's a pretty good point, Bertie, that people sometimes do need to go and speak to somebody about their grief if they're finding it's very confronting. I certainly believe that good counseling and seeing the right type of person is beneficial to moving on and being able to move past it and not move past it. I don't think that's the correct use of terms that I'm thinking about. - Through it. - And move through it. - Yeah. - Be able to acknowledge it and understand that it's okay. It happened. Some of the things you were talking about before, there's been times where, you know, I'd be walking around the house, especially weeks after Biff died, and I'd find that suddenly I'd be emotional. You know, I'd be just in the kitchen or I'd be doing some laundry or something like that, and all of a sudden I could feel like emotion-welling up in me. The good thing is, I guess, is that after losing quite a few dogs over the years, I have learned how to deal with it. My coping mechanisms are listening to sad songs. You know, I'll just sit there and put some headphones on, listen to music for a while and have a bit of a howl and get up, and I guess one of the good things also about that is that after a period of time, I start being less emotional and more happy about some of the memories I have with the dog, like thinking about the times that we spent and looking at pictures. You know, things that I haven't seen for ages, looking at their old puppy pictures and training things that we did together and some of the videos that we did, but I mean, if you look behind you up there on the wall on the left-hand side, there's pretty much a shrine to all our dogs past. You know, they're all sitting up in there and little jars and stuff. And that's amazing, like, we highly encourage people to accept a reality that they actually have some form of visual help. Whether that is, you know, I see the earns there or that you have photos or something. If you, the reason why, for example, funerals are so important in our society is because it makes you real. You have to go through it. So it's about, I have to accept this is an end of an era, you know? It's a bit of closure, isn't it? I ritualized this. Yes, very. All in all, goodbye. Very important. And it can be really personalized, you know, everyone has their own ways of doing it, but it helps a lot to cope. And it's also helping people to then maybe get, you know, for example, in the human funeral, you then also have resources, all of a sudden, people idea to help you for your next morning task, which is to adjust to internal and external obstacles, essentially, you know? So what do you mean by that? I mean, Matt, that, for instance, if you lose your working dog, you all of a sudden need a new working dog, but how do you source a new working dog? You need people who know breeders or who know who has a litter, or people can help you choosing the right type of breed for you. You know, there's a huge process around it. So it's about reaching out again and getting help. Another task people struggle with very often in their grieving process is to have to find the legacy behind the path that they have left. You know, you have to come to terms with what their path meant for you, but then also how do you move on? How do you move into a world with a new dog? And I'm just looking at you, Pat. And I'm like, I'm thinking about you and Ryder in your first episode. You know, what an amazing transformation it really was. And I'm wondering how worst it for you, like, how did you experience it? Well, it was a very difficult decision in period. So what happened was Ryder got sick and was basically, had a brain trauma and had, which we didn't know initially, but for a month he started acting. He was a sketchy dog and I could always tell what was going on. A lot of people had a hard time reading your bow. I never did. I could always see what was going to happen. And then for about a month, I couldn't. So I pushed him, pushed him, pushed him, finally figured out what it was. And we found out on a Wednesday and I put him down the Thursday. So we like did it basically straight away. And he might have lived a year or two. I don't have no idea. He could have gone a long time. So that is something I have to carry around for a long time that I didn't even investigate any treatment because I knew that I just knew it wasn't going to pan out. I knew that he was. And essentially what it boiled down to was that he was becoming dangerous to be around my family. Never with me still. And he never was like that. But I basically couldn't base the idea that he would through illness and through his clearly in pain. Like he should see, he probably just had like a grinding headache all the time and basically became dangerous around my son. And so I just was like, well, I didn't want to destroy his legacy for starters because he had done so much for me and I still loved him so much. And I could still give him the way to die in a way that before he did something that was probably out of his control anyway. So we made a decision that we found out on a Wednesday and like basically putting down straight away the next day. We got a different vet to do it. We had a friend of my brother and laws is a mobile vet. So we got her to come around and she'd never seen him and didn't know the dog from Barra Sofe and I just explained to her that what we needed to do and she allowed us to do it at home. So well, in her van out the front of my house, but basically I sedated him in the house and then carried him out unconscious to her van. So yeah, it was a really huge kick in the nuts. It was about then I just moped around for a day. And what emotions did you experience because people can't see your face right now. So what emotions did you feel the most in those moments? It was a lot of sort of an emptiness without him because he was such a pain in the ass dog for a long time. He, my whole life kind of revolved around. We had safety precautions in the house to deal with this dog. Not for us, but that's what we never wanted to get to. So people didn't come over and there was a whole routine for when they did come, he had to be in his box and he knew it. It was real well set up for it. But there was sort of an emptiness of like, well, even the layout out of our house, he's crate in the room. All of that had a purpose and now suddenly it had no purpose. So there was a lot of just the way our furniture was set out in our house was no longer had to be like that without him. So there was sort of an emptiness of that. There was a lot of, like, there's always that feeling of maybe have let him down. I never had that too strongly. What happened was like, I spoke to Sam basically as soon as we found out and said, I'm gonna put him down straight away. I was, I mean, I don't know about whether to do it that day or wait till the next day. And he said, you know, that dog lived way longer than with you, way longer than he would have with anyone else 'cause he would have been a problem that someone else gave up on at that point. Wow. So that felt pretty good to hear. That is, he was, I think, six, nearly seven when he died. So it was, he had longer innings with me than possible anywhere else, which felt good to hear whether it's true or not. But that's amazing, you know, it's also when you, in the clinic, we very often encourage people to really think the story through what meaning did they have through that dog. You know, what did that dog bring to you? Life did it teach you anything or that pet. Like, if I asked you what was the legacy of right and what contributed right into your life, what do you owe him? But what did you do? - Well, just about everything. Like, we wouldn't be here without him. Without, I often say like, 'cause he was not the dog I wanted when I bought a dog. Say if I bought Remco now, if I bought him, and actually the exact same age as when I got right and right now, if I had bought him, I would have just had this little interesting sware with dog training, and then I would have had this mowly just locked in my yard doing nothing. I would have been into it for six months, and then I would have been like, look, a squirrel. And I would have been distracted and doing something else, because it wouldn't have been enough challenge. So because there was so much challenge, it completely redirected my whole life. We're sitting here, this is my job, it's everything is different. So there's that. There's also that, you know, as we discussed at one time before, like he was a huge part of my life in that, when I first broke my back, he was really just my coping mechanism. - So he was the one that helped you here? - Yeah, and actually physically as well. So the funny thing was he used to, (laughing) the way I used to get sort of, when at my back was really bad, and that these were really out of place, I had kind of hunched forward, and I was really uncomfortable. And the doctor actually said, when you're lying for the like six weeks that was basically in bed, had to have like a weight across my sort of abdomen to sort of relieve the pressure. It was like my so-as muscle to go to the toilet. So it was here for six weeks, this dog basically laid in my lap and was pain relief. Like not just an emotional support, but physical pain relief when he was laying on me, when he knew it was bad. So there's a pretty strong connection there, right? And I love training him and I love the dog, and certainly losing him, well, just having him completely changed my life in a direction that I have no idea where it would've gone without him, and losing him, it was a bit of sweet moment because it was almost a release. So there was a few days of feeling horrible, and I just bought my eyes out in my garage for basically that whole day. - And did you talk to someone about your son? Just like, were you just by yourself like did you? - Yeah, not really. So what happened was Jane took Rip and Bale out so that no one was home, it was just that's when we did it. And then yeah, she just sort of kept Rip sort of busy all day and I just sort of moped around crying in my, looking at photos of him in the garage. And it was a pretty shitty experience, but then like I said, after a few days, I kind of got this feeling of relief because he was a headache dog a lot of the time. Though I love him and I wouldn't change the experience that I had with him even if I could. It was almost a case of like, oh, I don't want to say I was happy, I certainly wasn't happy not in any way, shape or form, but it was like I was waiting for my shoulders like I'd been carrying around that difficulty forever. And I was happy to carry it and would have carried it forever so long as it was my difficulty. But as soon as he became clear that like he was unpredictable and once we understood why, I was like why I can't, I'm not going to let him get worse and potentially, that was a big deal to me. I didn't want his legacy destroyed. I wanted him to be a dog that was too dangerous and too difficult to be around, got to a point where he could be and was totally manageable. And I wanted it to end there. It was really important to me that he didn't bite a kid and that would be the end of him because of that, it had to be before that. So yeah, that's sort of the impact that he made. And same thing like, so what happened, that was the Thursday and then he's see people around neighborhood, do you just got one dog and people like, hey, what happened? Like I saw Lydia the next day, well, might have even been the same day I can't remember 'cause I saw her and she knew straightaway, even though there was no, 'cause she'd never seen me with one dog and not the other. So she sort of was like, well, like really good about it and didn't pro, but we talked like, yeah, right, it's dead. And then you sort of people find out over the next couple of days and then I put something on Facebook about it like a week later, basically. So he'd been dead about a week before anyone really knew. Because I do have to say, I feel sometimes that men have a harder time sharing those things, especially the fluffy kind of emotions. Angus is probably more accepted, but the sadness or the loss and all those things, it's probably something that I don't know, he's sad true, I'm just, I don't know. - Well, I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't know. You know, I can only talk from my own experience, I can't say mine versus anyone else, but it certainly was, you know, you're kind of lost for words trying to explain it because I don't think there is a word that I know that really explains how I felt. And Glenn. - I think that it depends on how you raised as a child on how you share emotions. If you raised around a lot of men, and especially old school men crying was a bit, you were a bit of a cc if you cried. So it sort of being encouraged to just man up and just kick the dirt and sort of take it that, you know, she'd happens and you've got to deal with it. Or if you raised around females, some of the old school females that I've raised were a bit the same as the old school guys as well. That sort of suggest, you don't deal with it by being a suck. Where other members of my family would say to me, look, if you need to cry, especially my mum, my mum was actually very compassionate with things like that. She would often say to me, if you need to cry, then cry. If you need to laugh, then laugh. She said, don't disguise how you feel about things. Whatever you feel, just let it run. Primarily what Bertie was talking about before. So actually had a good role model in my mother. I mean, like most people, she was wise in some things and not so wise in other things, but in that advice I actually found it was sage advice that she gave me because she allowed me to be an emotional child. Where other members of my family would say, no, don't. You're a boy, you're gonna be a man. That's not what men do. Men don't walk around like girls. There's other ones who are supposed to cry and feel passion and pain. Men are supposed to man up and get some balls and. - Yeah, I think probably I agree with that in public anyway. Like I feel, you see this with the army guys as well, when someone gets killed overseas or whatever. Like you have the moment, you allow yourself that moment and that for me was in my garage sitting there. I remember sitting there on my bench press thing just bowling my eyes out, but it was a Thursday and I came to training that Thursday night, remember? And like I told you already, you knew when I got here, but no one else knew and I trained deeper dogs here that night, like it was no one knew. People asked where's right, I just had to sit in the room. That was it. I figured like, irrational, I said, "Oh my goodness, that's not a lie, I just didn't bring him." I don't need to tell you more than that. And I remember I think Lynette, like when she found out the following week was like, "I can't believe you were out here, but I'd had my time." You know what I mean? Like I didn't need to, I guess that's part of the grieving process and everyone so it does it differently, but I didn't need to publicly give her, like I'm sad, my dog's there, like I had that myself. - Everyone's different. - And felt it really deeply, like I had that really deeply home alone. - And you and I talked about it around the corner of the garage. - Yeah, that's right. - I mean, I think I was one of the people you told me pre-hand what was gonna go down. And yeah, I was actually surprised to see you out here a couple of days later, and you said to me, look, it was a terrible situation. I feel shit about it, but I know in my heart, ultimately I've done the right thing. And you said, "I've just got to move on from that point now. It is what it is. I'm gonna feel terrible about it for a while, but ultimately I agreed with you. When you laid it down for me, when you were explaining to me what was happening with the dog and how sick he was and how dangerous he was becoming. If it was a client ringing me up with that same request or giving me that same information, my response would be the same. I would say, you're doing the right thing." - So I guess for me, to answer your question about how it goes is I definitely went through like a very emotional phase, but I tried to do it in a couple of hours. And so I really did it really fast and intense, alone and then was like, "Well, it's done. There's nothing more I can do about this." And I've got, I'm locked in my garage, boiling my eyes out, and I've got a wife and kid and another dog upstairs that are wondering what the fuck's going on. - And also for you to guarantee to me is a very symbolic place to do it because you train your dogs a lot in the garage. So it's a very private intimate space. It's not just a garage, it's the garage where you train. - Yeah, the garage is, yeah, that's my dog training area. - And then really, there were only a couple of things that were kicking the nuts from after that that really brought it up again. So I kind of put, you know, when you put something on Facebook about it, then people, comments, things like that. But you've got to tell people, especially for a dog that you're known for. So then people sort of share their stories and that was like a positive, I enjoyed that. I was reading it, but you know, upset by a lot of things, but enjoyed reading and people talk about it. I remember this time when he nearly killed me and you know, like they've got their own version. And everyone reminded him, finally, which was important to me. So that was, I was happy to read all of that. But then, you know, like equipment that I'd bought, like turns up and like, "Oh, what the fuck do I do with this?" And you get angry then and upset, like my treadmill turned up. And then fairy contacted me and said, "Oh, what do you think of the mouse that I don't have a dog to put on it?" So that's kind of, that's that difficult moment. - Yeah, so it was a bit upsetting in that regard. But that's for me, it was very intense, but for a very short period and then I was like, "Okay, I got to move on." And there were only a couple of little things that brought that back. And you know, we hadn't created the first object for that to have cremated. And so when the ashes arrived, that's a bit of a. - So that was also, you were re-trolls. So you had a few re-trolls to like, the photos in your garage and then you got him cremated as well. - Yeah, and so we've got his collar, like I've got a little thing in upstairs. He's got his inner box. His collar goes on it and he sits there. And me and Jay actually have like two separate little shrines. So in her office, she's got a little shriner to earn it with his collar. And I've got right up upstairs in my office with his collar and pretty much the same thing. And we both have like big photos on the wall of our dogs sort of in our workspace. - So I think it's important, but that, yeah, as I say, for me, I've just decided, and it's what I've sort of always done with other things, it's just to feel it really intensely and really deeply for a short period of time. Just open up and then move on. - Yeah, I think that's the personal thing. That's the personal style again. And also probably very in your life, I think. at that time, you know, if you had home you can do it, if it would be a work, it would be different. And I think it's just such a personalized thing grieving. And I think what we really need to tell people is that don't let out of people tell you how you feel, you know, whatever you're doing, if you feel like it works for you and you feel like you're okay and you're making progress with no time pressure, you're doing the right thing. Like it's such a personalized thing. Everyone does different things, you know. Glendiz and Stu Music, I probably overed on chocolate. So, you know, we all have our coping strategies. And if you're more of a social person, you may be want to reach out with people and share those experiences and talk it through. Like everyone's a bit different. And if you ever feel like people need professional help about it, please don't feel ashamed to talk about it. You know, we really acknowledge that paths have an amazing, importantly, we're all in our life. A colleague of mine many years ago and subsequently other people have done this as well is prior to actually having the dog, Uthane. They brought around people that have meant something to the dog. Like I've known the dog. So I went to like a party for the dog, pre-Euthanasia party. And we sat around getting drunk, telling stories while the dog was with us. I mean, the dog had cancer. It was, it had a limited amount of time. There were some tears that night. Bunch of bikes all, telling some stories and some people got pretty emotional. Me included, because it was part of the family, part of the clan. But it was a good night. It was actually a really good night. The dog was a working dog. We gave it its final bite on the sleeve. That was a hard moment. And we're walking out the door thinking, "That's it. I'm not going to see this dog again." And it's farewell to a colleague. Farewell to somebody that you had feelings for and felt fond for. And we had a post-Uthane measure get together where we sat around and made sure the guy was okay and he felt better about it. And he went through that torment himself where he said, "I shouldn't have done it. I maybe I should have left it a bit and I said, I don't think so." I said, "That dog was fading away fast." I said, "I think you, no matter what you felt, you're feeling right now." I said, "If it gives you any relief, just let me tell you that I would feel those same horrible feelings, but looking at the way your dog was, I think you did an act of mercy and for your friend, I don't think you could have done a better thing for him." And I don't know whether that gave him relief or not, I certainly hope so, but I would have felt relief myself had somebody that said that to mean people I often have and I felt that same shitty situation, people had come and said, "I saw how the dog was, I saw how you were with him, I totally support what you did, I think." There was a lot of love in what went on. And that itself, I think is a very important thing, is it's an act of mercy and an act of love and compassion for a friend you need. - Yeah, I think that sort of get together is a great idea. There's no way I could do that though. Like for me, it's like, okay, once we've decided that it has to happen right now. I'd love to go to someone else's, I'm able to make a situation where it can happen, but it's an awesome idea, and I do, but if it was my dog, it's like, once I've made that decision, I have to do it right away. That's, I guess, just, what does that tell about me? - No, but it's also what I mean, like, as a grieving is really intimate, it's really private, you know? Like some people they want to share it and talk to a lot of people, some people want to become a bit of a hermit for a little while, you know, everyone's different. I think the main thing is just that you look after yourself, you know, that you set yourself up, that you can do that in a safe way. So, you know, we would not recommend getting constantly drunk or constantly avoiding those emotions or stopping those thoughts or those memories and or rushing into buying a new dark straightaway just to replace that feeling immediately, you know? It needs to be acknowledged that you've gone ahead for a while, but if you let yourself do that, you're probably gonna come out of the other end. - So that's a good point in bringing up. Can we talk about that? Obviously, everyone then, they're gonna get another dark, at some point, mostly, right? - Yeah, it's part of moving on. - So what's the advice on that other than just, is there anything better than just don't rush into the dark or rush into a new one, or is there something, a time when you know it, you should or what's the deal? - Well, I think it depends on the circumstances, whether your dark is part of your business or not. I think it depends on the role of the dark as well. And, you know, all those mediators, like how close are you to that dark, what's your relationship with that dark, what was the function of that dark, what was the reason for the death of that dark, how immediate was that death? But in general, what we're saying is, take your time, like you don't need to rush into things. Like if you have availability in your business or in your situation, you take your time, take your time. Like if someone comes to me in the clinic in a crisis, and they just lost someone, and they don't have to make decisions, I encourage them to at least rate three weeks. I'm like, don't make a decision in the next three weeks. I just saw another person who I failed to mention before the start of the podcast is Michelle Dentch. She lost her working dog recently. And you could see the grief that she was going through, because it was her partner. - Yeah. - It was her working dog, her partner, and she'd been working with that dog for a long time. And you could see the outwardly pouring of love and loss that Michelle was going through. So, I mean, I know Michelle for many, many years, good friend, great person, and I could tell she was hurting deeply. What she was sharing that post was a part of her soul, which most people do. They actually expose something that they don't normally show to other people. And you do the same when you're grieving pad or small. And I do the same. I don't share a lot of emotion with people, but when I've lost a dog, I don't really care about what people see me going through. I'm sort of thinking, well, this is a fanfare for your beloved companion. - Yeah. - So, something you brought up before, are you familiar with the term second dog syndrome? Is that something that I've done before? So, something you see a lot of the time when people have had a dog and particularly when it's been a really good dog, their dog, their dog, and they get a new dog, regardless of how long it takes. And they just can't gel with the dog. Like, say, I get puppies all the time, raised plenty of dogs. So, I'm used to the process, but most people get a dog and they go, like, 15 years before they get another puppy. And they forget what a fucking nightmare it is to have a puppy and how difficult it is. And they've had this dog that basically. - It's coming up to the standard of the other dog. - Yeah, and their dog for the last 10 years has spoken plain English or understood exactly how they want it and it fits into the life. And then they bring in a puppy and they forget that their dog was exactly the same 15 years ago. But yeah, it's called second dog syndrome. And they're really ever. Well, I don't, it's, you know, I'm certain, I'm sure it's not a proper clinical term, but I've heard people using it. And the second dog really ever is as good as the first because they don't put the work in. Because I think this should just be happening and why isn't this happening. But then the third dog is usually excellent because then they realize, oh, okay, like we're back to this. - So journey, yeah. I think, you know, it's really important to acknowledge that and also not to put the big reef dog on a pedestal to be realistic about it. Like my friend just lost her dog and you know, her dog was a difficult dog. So she had a lot of positive qualities, but there were also really hard times. Like there were lots of headaches in wealth with that dog as well. And it would be not fair to the story and to the dog's legacy, if you go like not a dog, was 100% sweet and easy all the time. That's not how it was. And because that dog wasn't easy, my friend is now so much better trained and the matter because of it, like a lot of good came out of it. But I think what also is really interesting and I was wondering what you guys think about that. But if a family loses a dog or a household loses a pet, how do they other dogs cope? Like how can you set up the rest of the household? And especially the pets to cope with this situation because I imagine that you know, there might be not as hungry or a change to routines or there might be a bit of flight. Have you guys ever had that with your pets? - Yeah, for sure. - Yeah, I think it's basically exactly the same as people from my observation is that some dogs don't care. Like so I think a lot of people think that their dogs are best friends and often the two dogs really just tolerate each other. So some dogs are just happy the other dogs gone and seeing that for sure. And then I've seen the opposite where dogs are really in bad shape over a second dog leaving especially when their little mates, then you're dealing with a separation like anxiety issue. But you gotta work through it exactly like people who let them grieve and let them experience all that. And it's difficult. And I don't think there is a technical cancer. Exactly like with people. It goes different ways. Like Valerie, she's saying that me dogs come and go through our house that she definitely was a bit displaced about writer for a little while because she had never been a loan. She'd never been a single dog. And she only was for a few weeks because, well, it was about six weeks. We got another puppy about six weeks later, but that was actually, that dog was coming before we put writer down like that was always a plan. That mom was arriving. So for that period she was the first time she'd ever been a single dog. And she adjusted pretty easily. She wasn't really a big deal for her. Couple of days of sort of, this is a bit odd, but then she was back to normal. And what did you do? Did you just stick to your schedule and your training schedule, like just moving on? Like, we've gone to trainers. Yeah, everything just stays the same. That's what I've heard is the best. So just keep going with what you're doing and give them some form of not too stringing routine but some form of head, it's the same. Yeah. And I think the advice I've given people in the past is just don't force the dog into anything for a little while. No strict obedience, you know? Just more companionship work. Yeah, exactly. Just nothing too difficult for the dog but still just continue the routine. Don't be a box worker or something. Yeah. Well, yeah. No, actually it probably would be, if I didn't know that back then but that probably would be a perfect thing to do. So I think just going for a walk with the dog and just spending general time with it would be sound advice that you could actually give them on that subject when we're talking about how does the other dog function? I have seen in situation where people have got multi-house pets, like three, four, up to five dogs, where one of the dogs has passed. And depending on that pecking order of the dog, it has destabilised the actual system that was set up. So there was perfect harmony before, whereas that dog was passed, and then it has established a situation where the dogs are rumbling for pecking order. I know people have this belief and they don't like to acknowledge that dominance exists, but there does need to be like, okay, well, how do we redefine the role here? Who's pretty much running the show? You can deny it all you want, but the eyes don't deceive you when you're actually watching dogs going through that. They're dealing in coping with the fact that that dog who used to keep things in line or the establishment was there, pre that dog, it's not there anymore. So the now they're unsettled. And I have seen that. I've had that happen at home before with my own dogs, where we had, when Harley died, the females, they lost their shit. I had a grandmother and a granddaughter that were trying to kill each other, which subsequently meant I had to re-home the granddaughter, because they were unsettled. They just didn't have the wise old man there to keep things under control. Yeah. If there was any nonsense going and he'd usually move in and just say, hey, knock it off. You know, any zone way, get in between them and say, what's all this about? When he left, there was no one to do that. There was no one to do that. It literally happened days after we put him down. You know, so I was dealing with the grief of that. Plus, we had destabilisation with the dogs, which was very, very difficult. So that's, I think, you know, what very often what we notice in people is it depends how many more difficulties followed at death, you know, what does it mean? And that can really stress people more or less. Like, if it's quite easy, then people have time to figure out how they're going to cope. But if you just keep being faced with more and more challenges, it's obviously a lot more difficult. And if you have three or more dogs, it's definitely going to happen. I mean, my understanding, certainly what I've observed is that when a new dog enters or leaves the hierarchy, that slot just, that don't just slot in somewhere and they don't just, the chain doesn't just move tighter together. The whole pecking order is now of a. Stabilised. Yeah. So number, who, who not might have been number four, has a shot at number one. And if he wants it, he'll take it. And they're exactly as you say, that order is relevant to those dogs. Putting a new one in can completely turn the order upside down and taking one out can do the same. So it can really wreak havoc with a little dog family for sure. And what's the effect you're going to see? Who knows until it's happening. Yeah. I think you can't prepare. That's the thing. Yeah, exactly. And it's such a morbid thing to even think about preparing for. That it's just not worth thinking about until you're faced with the problem. And then just dealing with what you've got. Yeah. That's, I think that's the kind of, as a, the common topic that you just have to roll with it, whatever you're being presented. And, you know, please people, if you're here, don't hesitate to reach out. Like, most dog owners who had dogs all their life have gone through this. So they know how you feel to a certain extent. So don't worry about sharing your story. And I think we're going to talk a little bit about the legacy. Yeah, I think that's a great idea that people can share the legacy of a pet that meant something to them. I remember in the original podcast we did with you, you talked about a rabbit that meant something to you in Austria. How did you cope? I, how, yeah, so I haven't lost a dog. It's I have lost my rabbit. And it is love is love. And I actually get really emotional talking now because it's the first time I saw my parents cry. So that rabbit was having access to other people's hearts as well because the rabbit wasn't inside rabbit sometimes. And I spent a lot of time with it. And I was riding my bicycle around with my rabbit, talking to church. And I saw my dad crying for the first time. And my rabbit died really dramatically. I was one day going into his, into the barn where he was. And he tried to commit suicide. Like he, he was in so many, he must have been in so much pain that he just kept running against a wallhead first. He just tried to smash his head into the wall. And I just, I remember just crying out to my mom, I'm like, "Mom, get out of a friend who, who was a hunter and had a gun." I'm like, "He need to get him. He needs to, and I was crying through my name. He needs to shoot my rabbit." And he's like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Look." And I remember how I had to witness for an hour how my rabbit was in so much pain. And then what happened was I'm getting so scared. It's that he took one last trial and it was his last trial and he just smashed his skull against him. Jesus. Against the board that he was in. And I was, I was maybe 12 or 13. So, so, so. It happened so fast because my dad was just like realizing, you know, no one's gonna be here in time until it happened so quickly. And he died in my, I put, pick him up and, and that's how he died. And the way I cope with it is that we had, the whole family had a burial, like, put him in a box with flowers. And my dad was like, we reset a couple of words and it was a really good introduction to death for me. Like, I was glad that I was a child and I was part of it or do I was cruel at the time. But I felt like, this is what you do, you value it, you show your respect and your love and everyone had their words. And then what happened was I engraved my favorite tree with his name and as we put it hard around it and it's told to. So, when I go home, I can still see the heart and it's, yeah. It's an interesting topic in regard. It's a little bit ethereal, but I've thought for a long time that the role of the family dog is, you imagine that the standard, the couple get together, they move in together, they get a dog as a troll for, they think it married, they get a dog as a troll for kids. They've had the dog for, you know, four years, whatever. They have kids. Then the dog is there, the kid grows up with them and then I feel like I've always kind of felt like it's the role of the dog to teach the kid. That's why they have a lifespan of what they do. The first thing that dies in your life, if it's not a grandparent or someone else, if a thing's going according to plan, should be this thing that you're really close to, but it's not a living human being. So you get the taste, like a little denoculation of real grieving and loss. And of course, as we've just discussed, it could be huge. It could be more significant. I mean, I care much more deeply about some dogs than I do some people, but it could be huge, but it's that taste of like, okay, this is what it is to lose so that you don't have such a significant loss when a family member or someone else you know does. You've at least gone, this is very found to stand what I'm going through because I remember it happened to Fido. And it also, it role models you, like, you know, your parents, like the elder generation can role model to you what you can do. And also what I think the beauty about losing a pet is the relationships very clear with the pet. You know, days usually no arguments, days no bad aftertaste or anything. Like it's a very pure relationship so you can grieve in a very unspoil kind of way, like you're not to amend it by the hopefully too many negative experiences that really cut you in the past. So yeah, and I agree. I think it's a great way to teach children if it's under right way. Just like a minor desensitising to the idea of it, right? I sort of had that feeling. So it was a bit personal, but when I, a guy I went to primary school with died a few years ago, and I went to his funeral and all people that haven't seen in years at primary school. And they were, everyone, like they hadn't seen this going a long time, you know, at primary school, you just, you don't see the people that marching. I was shocked at how deeply grieving a lot of people were. And then I sort of realised I was like, oh, like I've been to, it was a few in halls of had heaps of friends killing the army, I've been in honor guards and all sorts of things. So like I've been to a lot of close friends, you know, and this is their first time. And I probably was like that the first time. So it's certainly for me it has been a desensitising effect. Is that real or am I just a sicko? No, no, no, I think there is desensitising, but also what you have to keep in mind is that people make it retrigate. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like, you know, if I, if I've gone to a funeral and it was very similar to my granddad's funeral who was one of the most important people in my life, I will be not in a good space. And that's not saying that I'm not coping, I'm just hurting. So it doesn't represent how strong I am or how much I'm not coping. I'm just hurting that moment. But whereas if I maybe go to someone else's funeral and it has not much in common with what I've experienced or doesn't trigger or pull my heart strings, it might be a very different story. So it is a very, it just depends on the situation. And you know, we sometimes in a clinic discuss the importance of how much do you want to feel at a funeral? Is it better that people take medication to feel less? So is it so that they can cope better? Or is it would it actually help better if they would feel it? Like there's a big discussion in the literature around it. And yeah, I'm not sure what science would say at this stage, but we definitely would encourage people. I know it's going to hurt, but if it's okay, you're allowed to hurt, you lost something really valuable. The amount of pain you have is the amount of love you had in your life. And of course you're going to have a massive scar now. And it's going to, you know what, you would know a scar will show up hurting every now and then. Like it never stops being in your life. You know it's there, it pulls on you. And that's just how grief is as well. It's tough to be. It is, but it is. But a necessary one when you're considering how many people have been losing their pets. I mean, I've seen a lot recently, but it's an ongoing thing we're going to. Yeah, it's a matter of, well, they every bit you have is likely to die and on your watch. It's just that that's the cycle. They have a short life for spend and that's just how it's going to go. But we also need a reminder that life we don't know what happens the next day. You know, we sometimes live in this fairy tale that, oh, I will, I will be forever. No, it's not you just. And mortality is one when you're young, you can tell me, but for young teenage boys, you grew up with this. thing that you pull a proof that you can't be harmed, you can't be killed. Invincible. Until you witness mortality. And that's, I think for the first time for me it happens when I lost a pet. I realised what mortality was, I realised what death was and then you kind of, it's bit of a slap in the face. And you sort of go in a bit of denial for a period of time. All people are different, some people cope with it differently. But I mean the first time for me that I really became aware of mortality is when I watch my Uncle die for brain tumor. And like he was my, one of my rocks in my life, a very important figure. He was one of the people who actually taught me, I think I talked about him and never say what, his name was Lee. But he was the guy who taught me how to enjoy hunting and fishing and being with dogs. We trained dogs together, it was the first person we ever, I actually ever really trained a dog with. And when he died, it was like, somebody reached inside my stomach, pulled my heart and ripped it out. And it was the toughest day of my life. And that was true mortality for me the day that actually happened. That was the day that I realised I'm not going to be here forever. And it was tough. It was tough. It's very hard. But now I mean, at the time I couldn't even look at his photo. Now I look at his photos fondly. I've got a photo in my office and I often think about him and celebrate the time I did have with him because he was effectively a father figure to me. Good man. And I think what we have to acknowledge is that that pain that we have is actually, it's better sweet, but it was sweet at some stage, you know. And that's what gives your life meaning and purpose and urgency. So, have everything we sort of discussed today? If you could boil it down to sort of one idea, I take away from what we discussed as that. When you have a pet die, it's okay to grieve as hard and fast as you like as much as it would like a person. And you don't know anyone, any apologies on that. And what you should do is go deep into your grief, even experience it, and ride those waves of emotion and don't fight it. And wait until you get shot out the other end. How badly about butchered what we're doing. I think the key thing is that take your time, it's personal. It will be not over quickly. Everyone's different. But you have every right to hurt. You have every right to take your time and be sore. Maybe also remember that you're hurting because you're having love in your life. You know, this is what we want. We want to have a meaningful life, so that's the price. So that means you're on the right track. And if you feel like it's too much or you feel like, hey, I don't know what to do. It's just getting too much from me to handling. Reach out, like the health professionals, that's what we're here for. And we take that very seriously. How many people do you see now clinically that are coming to you over a great photo over a pet? Do you have people that do that? Do they come and see you? I only have two. But they come. As I, with these two people, what happened is it's part of the story. So they had just a lot of bad things happening to them and it's part of it. And I just, you know, it's a compound. It's a compound and it's just part of it. But I had a lady and she had to re-home her dog, her puppy dog, because life was all for certain. It changed overnight. And for her, that loss of a puppy and that guilt that she had and all of it is very difficult for the children as well, you know, it's, it has an impact. So, so don't hesitate that if you feel like it's too much, reach out. There's help there and the podcast might be not the right thing. But we haven't, like, psychologists have a lot of tools how to help you with this, you know. Some people might need more problem solving. Some people might need more emotion focus strategies. But there's a big toolbox with things that we can help you and show you how to do because how society actually doesn't teach us how do you sit with uncomfortable emotions. I don't think the idea of the podcast was to council people. It was to create awareness. Yes. If there's ever any message that I was hoping to get out from this podcast in the discussion that we've had and getting it out was, if you do need to talk to somebody, make the necessary time to go out and do that, seek out someone like Bertie, or even if feeling good about it is sitting with a few friends, having a beer and having a get together to a little wake. Have a wake, yeah. Yes. And I think we discussed that we would love to hear the legacy of everyone's dog. Like, you know how we discussed that people maybe have the option of posting a photo of the dog in the story with the dog and the story about the dog and what it meant to you. Yeah, we'll make a post on our Facebook page relating to that. And if you're listening in and I think, you know, probably 90% of our listeners are dog trainers or industry people. So everyone surely has a dog that got you to this point and you've lost along the way. So we'd love to hear about the legacy of your dogs and you can post a photo of your dog and tell us the story. And in a way, I actually found that just even talking about writer them was pretty nice to do, kept my shit together and didn't cry. So that's good. But you're in a room full of friends. And if you've been seeing in your car, look at this and think about it, you've been boiling your eyes out that way. We've all had our moment in this. And that was really close. You just always skipped to the next topic. But no, we would like to hear other people's stories because I think the podcast is a really safe place to share those stories and people would really appreciate it. Yeah, but don't feel compelled to either. If you don't want to, there's no requirement that you have to share something. If you're silent on the topic, it's recent and painful for you. Please don't feel like we're trying to force you to post something up because we're certainly not. I mean, there's times where I've, it's been too close where I haven't wanted to talk about it. And there's been other times where I felt the need that I do want to talk about it. And I've reached out to friends at the time or shared it on social media. It's been the right time to do it. So up to you. Very personalist. Yeah. All right. I think with that in mind, Bertie, I'd like to once again thank you very much for your time and professionalism. It's been invaluable having you here. This topic has been a difficult one to talk about for all of us because we've talked about things that have been hurtful for us in the past, things that have certainly tugged down our own heartstrings. All our podcasts are going to be this remorseful, but this is an important one because like I said, we were witnessing people going through a lot of grief at the moment and I thought this would be a good topic for us to talk about how to collectively get through it. So again, Bertie, great. Oh, thank you for having me here, like a love being and helping people in that way. So thanks a lot for giving me the opportunity. Well, we're looking forward to our next site session with Bertie. So we'll think of something collectively in the future that we can, or even if there's any suggestions from our listeners, if you have something that you think is a benefit discuss, as always, we're encouraging people to come forward and talk to us about it. Why does Pat have such bad relationship with food? And he's currently on his carnivore diet. Yeah, 13. 13, yeah. Nothing but meat and water. Mm-hmm. I actually feel pretty good. Anyway, that's it from us. As always, if you like what you hear, please get onto whatever subscription service you're downloading us through and give us a rating. That'd be fantastic. And doing that helps people who we can't just harass on Facebook and contact with us. To actually listen. If you'd like to get in contact with us, the best way to do that is through Facebook. The canine paradigm is our Facebook page. And you can send us some messages there. We've actually been getting lots of messages, especially about the box feeding up and getting a lot of personal messages about that as well. So made a little supplementary video that you might have seen on Facebook to sort of clarify a few issues. That's it from us. Glenn, can you please click Q to music?