Episode 1 - The Self Esteem Spectrum

(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, thank you for joining us for our podcast today. My name is Edan Oba, and I'm very happy to be joined by my wife B, and we're gonna be exploring the dynamics around self-value. - So this is a topic which is very dear to our hearts and minds, we think it's a huge issue for this time. And we've called the model we're gonna present today the self-esteem spectrum. So looking at those of us who may have too little value of ourselves, those who may face too much importance on themselves and how to achieve balance. - So I think it's a really important topic as you said for a number of reasons. One of the reasons why I think it's such a great topic to talk about is because we hear about this constantly, people talk about self-love, loving yourself, accepting yourself. And as we started discussing this, I really value the love, the insights that were generated through that discussion. And for me, one of the biggest things I really appreciated was this definition of self-esteem in a relational way. So often people talk about loving themselves, and I know that when we first started discussing and exploring this, you had a very powerful definition of self-esteem, and I was wondering if you could begin, just by maybe sharing that because it talks not only about the person, but about others as well, which I think is really important because it sets us up for having not only a healthy relationship with ourselves, but the way that you defined it being, really sets us up for having a healthy relationship with ourselves and a healthy relationship with other people. - Yeah, well, this realization was, is you know, it was born from a journey that I myself have been on, and I noticed that as my self-esteem, myself awareness and myself acceptance improved, my relationships with other people also improved. And so I understood that these two things are very much connected. And I've seen that there been other kind of definitions of self-esteem, and sometimes there's a idea that someone has got high self-esteem if they're strong in a dominant sense, almost, you know, kind of, in a sense maybe very much vocal about their own achievements. And I, someone's I had experienced with such people where I felt like it seems a bit too much here, you know? - Yeah, you mean it's like people, you're like when you meet people, kind of love themselves a bit too much. - Yeah, too much self-love and going on, you know? (laughs) - And it's kind of encroaching on your personal space. And so from all of this, I kind of, I understood, and the definition of this really helped me, and I've delivered it in a couple of seminars as well, to younger people. But self-esteem is actually, it's to do with how we see ourselves, as well as how to do with others, how we see others. - Okay, so in your definition, and I know again, we kind of looked into as an explorer, this, you know, back and forth for quite some time. So self-esteem, it was a sense that I am valuable, and that other people are equally valuable. And I think that's such a, I like it because it's such a vivid, and also a very clear definition. And what I've seen in my own life is that when people are very clear, and this one of the themes of our podcast have clear realization on something. - Yes, absolutely. Yeah, when people are very clear, then it helps you to navigate the situation. And I often find that so many times, there's a lack of perception, there's lack of realization, there's a lack of clarity, and because we're not clear on what's going on, we're not clear about how we can act, or how we should act, in order to move forward perfectly or effectively in life. - And that's why we want to start with talking about self-esteem, because how we perceive ourselves, in relation to others, is the foundation for every aspect of our lives. It affects our work, it affects our relationships, it affects our sense of positivity, it affects our resilience, it affects how we, how to move through obstacles, every aspect of our lives. - So yeah, that's actually interesting, because one of the things I was thinking about is how if there isn't a healthy sense of self-value and value of a people, one of the things that I've seen happen a lot is that it can lead to a very distorted view of reality, where we can be either too harsh and pushy on people, or the other side is we can be too easily triggered, and you get too much of a kind of victim mentality. - Yeah, so this really brings us to how we see self-esteem as a kind of spectrum, where in the center is the person who has a sense of I am valuable, and everyone else is also valuable. And one end of the spectrum is a person who's only thinking everyone else is valuable. - Okay, so just pause for that for a moment there. So let me just make sure I've got it clear. So in the center, so I like this idea of the spectrum. So it's like a natural, it's a whole continuum. If we're in the center, that's healthy self-esteem, somewhere in the center. If we're on one extreme, then you were saying that it's actually that other people are valuable except myself? - Yeah, that's right, yeah. So this is what we call someone with low self-value. So yeah, they see everyone else as valuable, and they don't take their own needs or concerns into account. And so there are a couple of symptoms of this, so I think we'll discuss a bit later on. But on the other side of the spectrum, oh, on the far side, the other far side, is someone who only thinks I'm valuable and they don't have enough of awareness of the value of others, or they only see others as useful to the extent that they can serve their purposes. And that's what we call excessive self-value. But the interesting thing about both of these is that, but like the excessive self-value and the low self-value are both driven by insecurity. - Okay, so that's a really, it's a very clear understanding. Okay, so proper self-love is that, actually I value myself and I value others equally. Low self-esteem is that I think people are better than me. So that's kind of like your inferiority complex. And then you've got the excessive self-esteem where I think that I'm better than other people. And I know that one of the things that we discussed, and I think we've seen this is that, when people don't come to that sense of having a healthy sense of self-esteem, if there's the imbalance of too much excessive self-esteem or too little, then in both extremes or both unbalanced situations, you end up in having, you end up in difficult situations in life, you end up in trouble. Okay, so if it's the case that there are these free states, healthy self-esteem, excessive self-esteem, and low self-esteem, I guess the best thing to do is to really understand more about each of these areas. So if we're talking about, I find it interesting, people who love themselves too much. (laughing) So how do you know when you're dealing with someone who's got excessive self-esteem? - Well, yes, you know Ed, it's such a good question. Sometimes it may arise in the feeling. Like after where we're such people, we feel like it's harder for us to express our point of view. It's harder for them to be receptive to it. We may feel a sense of frustration, a sense of not being heard. Sometimes even a sense of utility, if we try to address these kinds of issues with such a person, simply because we feel like they won't understand or they won't accept what we have to say. So these can be the kind of niggling thoughts that we may have, which may be an indication that we're dealing with someone who's got excessive self-value. - Yeah, and I think that's an interesting one because I think we've all been there sometimes. We see people where they've got too much absorption in their own view, own idea. And it's interesting they don't make space. They're unwilling or unable to make space for other people's point of view, even though actually both are valuable and are both worth hearing. So it's not like someone is shutting down someone just because they're badly behaved, but you've got two people who both have something legitimate to share, but you're still trying to push their views down. - Yeah, and you said it, Ed, especially when the other person's view is very reasonable, logical, understandable, yet the person who's got the excessive self-value shuts that person down and won't accept what they have to say. Even if they disagree, they'll kind of dominate that discussion or try to and push their views as the only way, basically. - And it's interesting because if you think about what this does, once I start discussing this and as we start looking into it, it's interesting because you can really start to see the signs. You can see the signs of the sign. that person and it's actually quite sad because I've seen that when people have excessive self esteem not only do they shut people down but they actually start to sow the seeds of their own loneliness because especially if you're doing that to someone who values themselves after all they're just going to get fed up and nothing look this person we can't have a proper exchange because due to their own ego, excessive ego they just kind of want to be right all the time so then people after a while they just get fed up and think you know what I don't have time for this kind of person if they can't deal properly then we'll keep a distance and we'll interact with other people who are more balanced. Yeah and it's brilliant how you brought up at like the kind of the ego and so what's really driving this person as I mentioned a bit earlier is this insecurity. Yeah so some symptoms of a person with excessive self-alien is that they tend to expect other people to accommodate their wishes like there's one time I was meeting someone who I personally feels like excessive self-alien although it's healthy to see to what extent we have either these traits excessive low and sometimes balanced because it's all in the spectrum. But anyway so I was meeting someone here I think has got excessive self-alien and you were meeting up for lunch and they were literally an hour and a half late and yeah and then when they came to the restaurant they didn't really offer any explanation they didn't even say sorry and it's kind of one of those people in your life that you just you can't escape you know like you can't it's not like a colleague that you can just not hang out with like it's a person in your life and we've all got those people who just are just gonna have to play some role in our lives we can't escape them so but yes they didn't they didn't apologize and and I kind of I understood they actually didn't feel like they should apologize like they it just and this is the thing about excessive self-alien like there's a there's a prioritization of ones own needs and and their desires yeah more than just in needs yeah their desires yeah that's right man yeah so and way above the recognition of other people's own healthy needs or desires yeah and that's that's where it gets tricky because I know that there's a real difference between someone's needs which are like basic and foundational as opposed to you know the desires so in my mind when I'm thinking about something that a person needs you're talking about certain universal and healthy things right so I need for respect and need for satisfaction and need for contribution and then what I've seen is when you have people who have excessive self-esteem it's not really even about their needs it's just about their wants you know they want something and they kind of they put their wants the things that they just like to have but they don't require they put that above other people's legitimate actual healthy needs which makes it really kind of difficult and I love this point you're making because when you know when we've had discussions about this it became very clear to me that when there's healthy self-esteem you give enough healthy room for yourself and enough healthy room for other people so there's legitimate space for you to express your own legitimate healthy needs and views and so on and you give space to the other person to do the same thing yeah but when it gets into excessive space then you're kind of pushing your illegitimate you're kind of just desires and you're minimizing space for other people's healthy expression as well yeah that's that's right and and sometimes if disagreements come up then the person with excessive self-value or self-esteem they'll tend to blame the other person for their emotional disturbance you know they won't take any real responsibility for their own emotions is all the other person's fault and it's like that and then they feel that way all like most of the time they have disagreements yeah yeah and I've seen that because so a new one person who's like that and they just will need to try and control everyone yeah and it's kind of like it's just and and to the point that in order to control other people they had to try to minimise other people as well and I was just thinking just how sad how sad that is it's a shame and also I mean even when we're in disagreements and even if the other person has said something that genuinely does disappoint us and yes there is that initial emotional reaction but then there's always something that each one of us can do for ourselves you know there's always that kind of self nourishing self-healing activities and thoughts that we can have that can help bring us into a state of balance and that's something that's really typical of people who've got balanced self-value or healthy self-esteem that they will do that so they'll stay in a place of balance whereas someone with excessive self-value they may continue to blame the other person and feel very negative yeah and it's interesting but with that kind of person ultimately even if they're surrounded by people they're still alone because deep down you kind of you you can't you can't be truly happy in a deep sense if you're always kind of trying to put down other people, minimise other people and I'm just thinking more and more that if someone is like this and you know you mentioned this when we spoke about this last time the extreme of this kind of excessive self-esteem the extreme of this idea that I'm more important than other people is the narcissist yeah the narcissist really takes the excess of self-value to an extreme it they take it to the extreme that even though their relationships are falling apart so there's a strong dysfunctional element but they're still in this absorption of thinking I am valuable no one else has any real value so yeah so that's really the difference between someone with excessive self-esteem, someone with narcissism like narcissism is like the far end of that spectrum where it's gone into dysfunctional territory like really dysfunctional territory but they still maintain their narcissistic viewpoint yeah and also another thing that I saw with people on that kind of excessive self-esteem is that they have this tendency they want to control other people I was speaking to someone recently and you know they used to interrupt with this person who was too controlling wanting to tell them what to do all the time and I'll be honest it was to that guy's credit that he kind of became clear he moved away from that person and I was impressed because it showed me that there was something about this guy where he had enough respect for himself that he could kind of realize that this was unhealthy and that the person who was dealing with him wasn't really allowing him to grow and develop but rather they wanted him to be like an extension of themselves and I think we see that a lot with people who have excessive self-esteem. Yeah and see that's the interesting but that's how the insecurity comes in because someone with healthy self-esteem they're not disturbed they're not bothered if other people are shown to also have internal strength but this sort of thing it bothers someone with excessive self-esteem because they're actually insecure and sometimes that controlling tendency it comes from a desire to put other people in you know a lower place because it disturbs them if other people come up. Yeah so I guess in summary here we're seeing that when we're dealing with someone who's got excessive self-esteem first of all underneath it is insecurity that's one thing and some of the signs that we've mentioned tendency to be overbearing overly controlling right tendency to try to undermine other people and we sometimes see this kind of microaggression so they want to say small statements to kind of minimize people small digs and also they want to act towards other people in such a way that they try to make other people feel inferior so that they can control them and inability to recognize another person's point of view even when it's legitimate right so I think there's a different there's an important distinction to make here though see for example there is a place for confronting people who may be let's say mistreating people putting people down right so that they understand that that kind of behavior won't be tolerated but there's a difference between that and just kind of making a dig to someone because you just want to undermine them as well and you want to kind of erode their sense of self-value you know yeah definitely okay so then now this is a question of view can people who have excessive self-esteem because we said that ultimately pushes people away. Can they be charming? Yeah, thanks for mentioning this. Yeah, they can be charming, but it's with a purpose. You know, it's not because they just like being friendly. It's usually that they see some value in the person they're trying to charm and therefore they exert some positive kind of attitude towards that person. But then you can kind of see that the charming tendency it doesn't last like when they get the thing that they want to get from that person, then they no longer maintain that charming attitude. Okay, so yeah, so it's like the mask eventually slips, right? Yes, yeah. Okay, so okay, we've discussed the whole thing about excessive self-value. Now, I'm curious what your thoughts are in terms of people who have a low self-esteem, right? So, again, that spectrum in the middle, that middle range. And I think it's a really great model, the idea that it's a spectrum because it's not like one category or another. And I remember one thing that you shared, which I thought was really interesting and I'd love to get into a bit more later on. It's about how people can move on that spectrum because I think that's really, that's for me was a real insight because you do see that. You can see someone who's insecure and at the same time, sometimes they're trying to push people around. So one day they're being minimised by one group and then in another setting, they're trying to push everyone around. Yeah, so yeah, that is a phenomenon. And that really comes because of the underlying driver of the excessive self-value and the low self-value, both of them, the underlying driver's insecurity. And there's a deep down, there's a sense of not really deeply appreciating one's own real value. So someone with low self esteem, they will think that if I am in such and such situation, then that means that I can be appreciated. That means I can appreciate myself. So you know, if I have more money, if I maybe have more YouTube followers, if I look more beautiful, if I get this job, that means I'm valuable. And so the person with low self-value basically is insecurity, the feeling of insecurity, plus thinking I don't have any of these things, which would actually make me valuable. And therefore, manifest as low self-esteem, low self-value. The person with excessive self-value, they also think if I am rich, I am more valuable, or I'm valuable. If I am attractive, I am valuable. If I have more YouTube followers, I am valuable. The difference is, is they actually have those things. And so therefore, they see, like they see the, they see, and other people who don't have those things, they will see themselves as superior to those other people. And so, so that's also how we see, that's one way in which the self value can fluctuate. Because if you're around someone who's got less of the thing, that you've attributed your self-value to, you feel better than that person. And if you're around people where you've got, but they've got more of the thing that you've attributed your self-value to, you feel worst in them. And so therefore, in these different ways, the low self-value and excessive self-value will be expressed. Yeah, so it's interesting also that it means you're vulnerable in terms of your own sense of value. Because we know that so many things that we may have, it can change. I remember, I remember watching something and they were talking about certain comedians who at a particular point in their, in their, in their career, they were the number one, right? And then what happened when the next big up and coming names started to appear on the horizon, then they were no longer the top person. And then that could start to affect the way that they saw themselves. And so I think it's really is a bit of a trap at the end of the day. If we attribute our self-worth directly to so many external things. Yeah, and it's a trap that I've fallen into. It's something that I'm still trying to overcome. You know, I mean, at the beginning, I mentioned that some of these realizations are born of my own personal journey. And so I trained and I studied as a doctor, I worked as a doctor for a period of time. And then when I was no longer working as a doctor, then I started to feel a low sense of self-value. And so I am now looking back, I can see that I attributed my sense of self-value to having that external position, something which was respected in society. And so when that position, when I was no longer working that position, that sense of self-value for me, it also went down. So this is a kind of thing, like you're saying, this is the kind of thing that happens when we don't appreciate deep down our real self-value. And it brings me to something that I remember when I was young, looking at so many things around self-development, self-improvement. And one of the things that really used to, it used to kind of like, niggle at me, like, cause a little bit of irritation. You'd have people saying that they want to be somebody. And I was just thinking about, so what you're basically saying is that right now, you're not valuable, you are a nobody. But when you get the external, so-called success, then you suddenly become valuable. And for me, that's inherently wrong. I think that the message we really need to be sending to ourselves and to other people is that everyone is valuable unconditionally. And that's the starting point. Now, we should strive to, you know, be the best to make contribution in a healthy way. But the value comes a prior way. Yeah, absolutely. We do have to appreciate, yeah, we have to not put our value on certain external conditions. That's the essential feature. Yeah, so, okay. So we touched upon this idea of excessive self-esteem. So the people who love themselves a bit too much. And we know that beneath that, there's this idea, actually, this insecurity. Let's look at the other side of the spectrum, right? So people who have low self-esteem, first of all, how, or will it the symptoms of someone who has low self-esteem, slash and inferiority complex? Yeah, so this one is probably more common of the two, I would suspect. But there would tend to be tended to self-neglect, you know? So sometimes they may neglect their appearance, they may not as well. But they may neglect their appearance, they may neglect their health properly, so they don't take the time they need to rest, recuperate or exercise, which is important for everyone. They may neglect themselves in terms of constantly doing too much. They might, which is, you know, maybe not so obvious when you think of someone with low self-esteem. But sometimes those of us with low self-esteem, we may overwork. It was an overcompensation and we'll neglect really essential areas of our lives. So you were making that point. I remember when we discuss this, that kind of over-achieving has a lot to do with seeking validation from other people. So you want to share something on that? Yeah, and again, that's something that I really struggled with. I know that I received a lot of attention when I got good grades. So I felt, and actually what I imbibed deep down was a feeling of, I am valuable when I get good grades, I'm valuable when I get a good job. And this went on and on and until the extent that when I didn't get those high-achieving grades, then I actually thought, I'm not valuable, you know, that it went to that extent. So I would actually feel down or depressed if I wasn't always getting the top marks. Yes, that's interesting. I mean, also looking at my own journey, I see that in those same periods where I've had that experience in terms of low self-esteem. So one thing is the self-neglect. There's also, I can definitely relate to that, that you can build up a sense of underlying resentment or negativity as well. Yeah, towards other people, which I thought was very, very interesting because at the same time is not properly looking after oneself, not properly caring for oneself, that can then cause some poison to come up inside as well, which I thought was a very, very interesting comment. Yeah, that's such a good point, Ed. And also, some of us, if we've got the low self-esteem, we'll actually attract people with excessive self-value, who will try to push us around. And because we're not able to address those transgressions, where in the relation of the person with excessive self-value, they go too far and they overstep the balance. boundaries and if you've got low self-value we don't address those scenarios. It starts to build up a sense of resentment and frustration. So that can also be a reason why. Yeah and again it's so interesting because you know because as we've been looking at this especially through the lens of you know Eastern wisdom, Eastern knowledge you get a real very clear understanding of these free areas. So on one extreme you've got this kind of we could call it a lower level of functioning in theory or to complex low self-esteem that's one side. On the other you got this excessive functioning like overly passionate, over endeavouring, right overly domineering, overly controlling and then when you go into the center it's more you get more this sense of balance. And that's more internally healthy and good, something that's also more sustainable. And that comes from more of that security, they're actually secure and because they have that awareness that I am unconditionally valuable. So let's look at that then because this is really where we all want to be. We want to live in this space of healthy self-value. So again this idea that I'm valuable and other people are valuable and again it's such a clear vision because it means that I can have a litmus test for my own self-esteem not just by how I'm dealing with myself but also how I'm dealing with other people as well, not just the space I'm giving myself in life but the healthy and legitimate space that I'm giving to other people. And I really love this idea because it's almost like a relationship ecosystem. But if I actually have that value for myself and value for others that provides the foundation upon which relationships can continue to be nourished, continue to grow and continue to actually develop. Yeah, absolutely. And there are quite a few symptoms of someone who's got healthy self-esteem. Even being that they tend to be authentic and true in all circumstances. They don't have a problem. They don't need to overcompensate and really they don't actually maintain a facade. So someone with excessive self-value, sometimes that facade will be there like you said when they want to be charming to get something, it may be there. Someone with low self-value, they may also sometimes maintain a facade at times. But someone with balanced self-esteem, they're authentic. They're able to appreciate their strengths. They may emphasize their strengths. They will accept their weaknesses and they'll also be able to deal with their weaknesses in the way in which they try to minimise the impact that weakness has on their life. And I think that was a really interesting one because when we started discussing and exploring this, when you shared that, it helped me to understand it was like the missing link. It helped me to understand that when someone has healthy self-value, it makes them secure enough to be able to see the good in themselves and it makes them secure enough to be able to face the things that they need to work on. It was a clue to me because I started to realise that whenever people pretend that they're perfect and when people deny issues that they actually have, that became clear to me that that was actually a sign of an imbalance in that person. Yeah, I mean sometimes that can be part of the maintaining a facade, but also it can be that they've got trouble actually accepting that there are points which they need to work on. But that's natural for all of us, really. And sometimes, sometimes people can be, we can be too hard in ourselves for weaknesses. It makes you can tell me about that because where we're going with this is, what are some of the things that we can do? What are the practical things that we can do in order to develop this foundation? I think it's so important for modern society. I see so many issues when you look at it through this lens, you can see that people who are overcompensating, being domineering all of these things, they're out of balance. And I know that we often talk about certain wisdom texts like the Gita and it talks about the impolns of equi-poise. So for me, all of these things line up. How do we or will it some of the practical things that we can do that can help us to develop and stay in that space of healthy balance? Any ideas? Yeah, so really one thing that we can do is we can have our self-narushing practices. So the things, the activities that we perform that literally make us feel positive. We get a boost afterwards. And these are things that we really should be able to do by ourselves, really, as a self-narushing practice. But it might be something like maybe going for a bike ride, going for a walk in nature. For me personally, I love writing. So it might be writing. It might be poetry. It might be reading. But just something in activity that we do, we literally feel nourished in our hearts. It might be exercise as well. But we tried to actually build this activity into our daily life and do it with some regularity. So it's something that should be part of a natural balance lifestyle. I mean, there are those of us who feel positive after we eat chocolate. I'm not sure if eating a regular chocolate could be saying it's part of a balance lifestyle. But you know, these things which we do, which are really good activities, wholesome good activities that bring a positivity into our heart space. Yeah. So reflecting on that, because one of the triggers that I see which are very, very powerful, like not triggers, I guess, drivers is a better word. When people practice the symptoms of healthy self-esteem, then even if they don't have healthy self-esteem, that will help them to get into balance. So you've mentioned one which is like regularly taking care of one's needs. So you talked about this before that with healthy self-esteem, I don't neglect myself. And again, I love the spectrum as a model because it does give room for people to do something which may be an emergency situation. So let's say that you're being given an opportunity to get into a top university, but you have to kind of do a little bit more study. So you're going to push for that period, but it's for a specific limited period for a particular situation, then you go back into balance. And again, what I loved about this model is that if you're living your life with healthy self-esteem and taking care of these needs on a general level, it actually provides the extra capacity which allows you to kind of basically be all hands on deck when you have the drive for a particular event or a particular objective. Yeah, I mean, you may have to be dominating, let's say you're a teacher and you go to class of unruly children. Then of course, you're going to have to dominate at some point. But again, the thing is that domination is not with oneself as the prime goal. It's actually, that domination is still for the benefit of others to some extent. So you can even see in that way that there's a difference between the domination of someone who's got balance of the team and the excessive dominance of the person with excessive self-esteem. So taking it further into this idea of how we can actually generate and develop this space of balanced, healthy self-value where I'm important, I'm valuable, and so are other people equally. There's a few things I know that we broke it down to kind of four key areas. So I was thinking maybe you could take us through like at least the first ones and then I can maybe share some as well. Okay, yeah, so thank you Ed. To the four areas that we developed, we came up with, to the self-esteem based upon our observations and our study of this topic is one, attentiveness. So really just noticing ourselves. Sometimes when we don't have self-esteem, we disregard or neglect ourselves. And so, and it can get even to say to we don't even know what our own preferences are. We don't know what our skill set is, our unique natural strengths or incarnations. We're not aware of those because we're not paying attention to ourselves. And done that actually, I saw that there was something here about emotional self awareness because when people don't recognize and acknowledge how they're feeling, both good or bad, then what happens is the emotions get repressed. But that repressed emotion, a, it can cause some kind of health issue. But also it just, it tends to erupt, especially if it's a negative emotion because usually people are happy to acknowledge positive emotions. But that kind of inability to acknowledge where one may be feeling annoyed, irritated, whatever. That then pushes it into the unconscious, in which case it will tend to erupt and come out in some more intense way at a later point. And of course, the balance here is that when there's healthy self-esteem, I acknowledge my feelings, but that doesn't mean I just kind of lash out. So there's an acknowledgement so it doesn't become repressed, but that I'm still able to consciously decide as and when and how I will express that particular emotion in such a way that it's progressive ultimately. Yeah, yeah, that's fabulous. Yeah, so we simply want to just notice ourselves. We can even just make a note of the emotions that we're feeling if a woman or someone who likes to-- or for a man and we like to write diaries, we like to express and appreciate our emotions. And I guess like one simple and practical technique, let's say two things come to mind. One is actually having regular time with close friends. So you can actually-- you can talk about how you're actually feeling. And that way you're able to kind of express it in healthy and mature association. And I guess the other thing is actually-- many people now into journaling. And there's a lot of study that shows that by people doing that, they're able to actually express or release those emotions in a healthy and progressive way. So both things can be a way of really practically practicing this idea of self-attentiveness. Brilliant. And so moving on. So number two was affection. So literally being kind to ourselves, if we make a mistake, yeah, we want to recognize a mistake so that we can improve the next time. But we also don't want to use harsh words in ourselves. Sometimes those of us with low self-esteem, we may think that the harsh words will help us to do better for the next time. Actually, they're just incredibly discouraging. Sometimes you might even be harsh in ourselves out of frustration on ourselves. But again, we're kind of overreacting and they're just being too hard. One tip for being kind to ourselves is to speak to ourselves as we would speak to someone that we really appreciate. That's simple. And I'm guessing that another key part of this affection aspect is often what they call self-soothing. So let's say you've had a hard time or you had an interaction that was quite negative, taking that time to actually do those things that make you, again, feel whole, feel balanced, giving yourself almost like self-healing. Sometimes for yourself, time to actually relax, time to actually recharge or rejuvenate from some of those difficult experiences that you've been through. So I think that's another way in which we can really help to bring ourselves back up. Because more and more as I think about this, I'm seeing life like a dance. So there's sometimes you're very active in the dance. Sometimes you have to be a little bit more calm in the dance because you're looking to continually recharge your batteries and then use that charge to move forward in life. Then recharge your batteries and then use that charge to move forward. If you're always charging forward, you burn out. But if you just relax and don't do anything, then you stagnate. So it's like a sine wave. It's that kind of activity and then recharge. And then healthy activity and then recharge. And what I've also seen to be really interesting is in the periods where you're recharging, you're also using that period for recharging and also review. Because as you reflect on yourself and your learning, then you can actually move into the next period of activity with more wisdom, more strength, more insight, more enthusiasm. So it's like an upward spiral of progress as an individual. And I know that one of the things you were mentioning in this four stages, because you told me that attentiveness, then affection. And you said that as people practice that, they become clearer on their intention. Can you say more? - Yes, that brings us to the third aspect that is really important to take into account when developing self-esteem. And that's our intention. So once we've been attentive to ourselves, we started to take notice of ourselves and what generates positive emotions within us and positive thoughts. And we started to be affectionate. We started to actually act and think positive in positive ways when regarding ourselves. Then we've come to intention. So much more better able to actually recognize, what do I want to do? How do I want to spend my time? How do I want to direct my thoughts? What are the things which I value? And how do I want to put those things into my life? What things do I want to move forward towards? And so this is our intention. And people with a low self-esteem, sometimes we might actually suppress our own intentions because we're afraid that they're not healthy, they're not good because we don't recognize them because we think that that's not the thing that would get us validation from other people. If we've got excessive self-esteem, we may over-emphasize our intentions above other people's. So with self-esteem, we recognize our intentions and also able to move towards those intentions, which brings us to point number four. But just on that before we go on, because I think there's also a lot of confusion around intention. And I think that there's a few things to differentiate here. So there are healthy intentions. That means intentions which are valuable, which are healthy and which are progressive for us and are not damaging to other people. And I think that that's the kind of intention that comes when we're really properly attentive and properly affectionate. So someone who just wants to do whatever they want and engage in activities which are damaging to themselves, I would probably argue that that's not really a deep level of intention because the intention would connect with our needs, which are universal requirements for us as people who want to be healthy and progressive, whereas unhealthy intentions will be just more around kind of external desires. Like you said, too much dependence on the validation of other people, for example. Or they may even be whimsical, completely too much whimsical activity. And then I guess the last point. So you've talked about attention, affection, intention. And this last one is really interesting situation because it goes back to the model of the self-esteem spectrum that healthy self-esteem is that I value myself and I value other people equally. Because this last one situation means I'm also mindful and respectful of other people in the environment and what their needs are. So I'm taking care of myself, but not at the cost of overriding other people's legitimate space and also their legitimate needs as well. And being aware of the situation means that we will be able to be attentive to ourselves, be affectionate and express our intention, but in a way it is healthy. And therefore because it's healthy, we'll be able to do it ongoingly. It will have endurance. - Yeah, and I was just thinking that what does this mean practically? It means we will do things in a way that does not unnecessarily disturb other people. Now of course, if you're doing something healthy and other people are just disturbed anyway, then it probably indicates that there's some discussion that needs to be had to see if they've got a good reason for being like that or maybe it's just an issue that they have that they need to work through. But again, it's always in that kind of, it's always in that dynamic of looking after yourself and also allowing or not encroaching on the healthy space of other people, which I think is such a key piece of the jigsaw puzzle that's so often overlooked. Because I've seen that many times when people talk about self-love and self-care, you can get to the space where people actually in the name of self-love are just literally being self-centred and selfish. - Yeah, yeah, that's true. And again, that's why this definition is so holistic because actually if someone's got healthy and strong self-esteem, it actually uplifts everyone. - Thank you very much for that. And I guess that's a great point to end on. So the self-esteem spectrum is really about understanding where we are on the spectrum, understanding that we can sometimes move on that spectrum. The person who may have low self-esteem in one environment could be overly domineering in another environment, but ultimately we're trying to get into this space where we have healthy self-esteem and it creates a great foundation for life, a great foundation for relationships because if I value myself and value other people properly, that's really the healthy basis for having a healthy, ongoing relationship with others. others, whether it's friendship, partnership and business, marriage, whatever it is, it's the foundation in that sense. So yes, this attentiveness or attention, affection, intention and always taking into account or giving proper respect, not only to myself but also to the situation itself. Okay. So thank you very much for tuning into the podcast. Please join us for the next release which should be literally within a week's time and we have a very exciting, very powerful, very practical model for you which you're just going to love. Yeah, I absolutely cannot wait for our next podcast to drop. It's going to be epic. Thank you very much. Take care guys. All the best. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]