Episode 1 Part 2: Adventure is in the Mind of the Child

I'm Erin and I'm Morgan and I'm Mayan and this is Playwork, the podcast for people who love Dye. Welcome back to Playwork. This is part two of our first episode. So if you haven't heard part one, pause, stop, go back in your feed and listen to the first part of our conversation with American Playworker Alex Cote. We talked to her about her skillful playwork practice and specific things that you can do right now to make more way for play. Here on part two, we're going to hear more from Alex about the question that we get all the time, which is how can I do this at school? But first, this show is a resource, a place to talk about playwork and providing for play. So I'm going to start right now being a resource for all of you listeners. If you or your friends or anyone you know is excited about supporting play, you should read the playwork primer. I think the playwork primer was probably one of the first documents that I read about playwork and I remember it being this like, "Oh, that's what playwork is." Like now I understand this philosophy and this approach and like obviously there's lots more to read and lots more to learn about after you read the primer but it's just elegantly written and it just sort of lays everything out. I love the playwork primer. It's short, you can read it over coffee, you know, I definitely remember early on in my playwork journey sort of printing it out and taking it to a cafe with a highlighter and just sitting and spending some time with it. It's easy to read, it's easy to share with your friends, your fellow teachers and other parents that you know. So it's a great resource, definitely recommend it. It's on our website, you can go to playworkpodcast.com and download it. It's free and it's the best place to start in addition to listening to our podcast, of course. Okay, let's get back to our conversation with playworker Alex Cote and as a reminder, Alex is a playworker at the Riverdale Country School in the Bronx. Like most great play projects, especially in the US, this one started with one passionate person and in this case leading the charge was kindergarten teacher Geotie Gopal. So Morgan, you were one of the first people that Geotie reached out to sort of expand the playper vision on the playground. Do you remember those early calls? Yeah, absolutely. She was doing some really beautiful play support in her classroom and with the kids in her kindergarten group. Lots of really interesting stuff around like rough and tumble and loose parts, but she wanted to be expanding those ideas in the recess playground as well and just reaching more kids through the school so we did some workshops with all of the staff. And she'd been building momentum for a while and suddenly it seemed they were ready for a full-time member of staff. And Alex Cote, see in the natural choice. There's more from our interview with Alex Cote. How is it different to have a playworker, a trained playworker on the site on the playground from just having like teachers on the playground watching? Like don't the kids already do whatever they want on the playground? How does it feel different? I think it's more about the school caring about having someone who can devote their time to thinking about this stuff. Because they were really excited when Jotie was sort of spearheading doing some new stuff on the playground, but she already has a full-time job teaching kindergarten and she can't devote the time to training staff or thinking about materials in the way that I can be very conscious and planned about this, including things like making five-year plans or talking to the facilities people about the grounds and what we're able to put out there and all the nuances of a large system which a school is. Can you say some of the early materials that you introduced to the fixed play space and what has worked well in your context? Making a water source was one of the things that was pretty early on and that was really exciting. This school is already very playful. They'd been doing little steps for many years before I came. For example, the kindergarten teachers let their kindergarten kids go into their classrooms like Philip Cups of Water and bring them back out to the playground. I just sort of formalized that and made it accessible to other grades also. I put in, there's a water tap right there on the playground and putting a little drip faucet that turns off automatically so there doesn't have to be any sort of reminders to turn the water off or fear about water spraying everywhere. It's just there now and the kids know that it's there and they can get it when they want. How much does that cost? Six bucks. It's like a DAW. It's called the brand name is Lixit. It's like for a DAW to drink from the hose without their owners needing to turn it off and on. It lets out a little bit at times so it's not a big flood and you just press a little lever and the water comes out and then it automatically stops when the kids or the DAW doesn't want it to be running anymore. So it works really well for a playground. What's another list part? I mean, just adding more pots and pans. There's already lots of wood chips on this playground and that makes it possible to dig and do lots of pots and pans and spoons to make stuff. Sorry. Just to really dig in on this context thing, was the water choice? Were you responding to the fact that the kids were already bringing water outside or do you think that that's a good standard place to start, for example? I was responding to that. That was already something that seemed like the teachers were pretty comfortable with and they already felt like they were already doing it. I didn't just turn it on one day. I talked to the teachers about this happening and what if they get wet and we'll figure it out. We discussed stuff beforehand and the answer is that at a school sometimes you can't be wet when you go to your next class and all the teachers just sort of manage that themselves. They remind the kids that you can't have a water fight today because we're going to reading. Yeah. That's a really good practice. That's a great example because it's something that the kids were already trying to do and that the adults were already allowing but you could make it slightly easier. Yeah. And accessible to the other kids too. Because the kindergarten classrooms are right off of the playgrounds, so it's easy for them to go in their classrooms and get water but it's weird for a fourth grader to be going into a kindergarten classroom to get water. So there was a barrier there, like an actual physical barrier, to going inside. And now honestly, like the fourth graders are some of the ones that do the most like restaurant, like cooking play with the mud. You guys have a backfire at some point, didn't you? Not like an actual-- The tires? Was it? Yeah, so what-- Because you can sort of do too much too fast. It gets exciting, right? Yeah. Before I got there, the teachers were excited to introduce tires, which is something you see on a lot of adventure playgrounds and at a lot of schools that do loose parts play. But the way this school is laid out is that their playground is at the bottom of a very steep hill. So when they introduce tires, one of the affordances of tires is that they're really good at rolling and they pick up speed. And we haven't talked about this much but like children who haven't had access to a lot of loose parts, sometimes are not used to managing their own play yet and there will be some like necessary like mishaps until they figure it out. And the mishaps, when there's a heavy tire hurtling down the hill, were a little too much for this school to handle. So they ended up taking them back away again when a child got knocked over by a tire rolling down the hill. Yeah, what's the-- And like what ended up happening was that like the tires were gone now and that's not something that I have brought back because it doesn't-- I mean we could probably use tires at some point once everyone trusts that this is actually working but it's not something that needs to happen now when the school and everyone at the school is still learning about what this means. So I want to hammer him on this a little bit too because this is a great, I would think moment for people to be like this is a terrible idea. Clean up, done. To what degree are mishaps inevitable because this school is taking a risk by experimenting and other people want to know how to take risks and experiment as well. So what's the lesson here you think? I think the lesson is twofold and one is just like setting up everyone in the community with the expectation that it is a process of like children figuring things out for themselves is an important part of play and to trust that they will learn from it and get through it and to know that us as staff will attempt to prevent like serious harm but that like bumps and bruises and scrapes are part of figuring out where your body ends and the stuff begins and it'll happen and the kids can do it. The other part is just setting the kids up for success and like anticipating that if you have something that is heavy and rolls well that they will roll it and if a school can't have that happening yet don't put that stuff out. And I think it's, I don't know who originally said it but like don't put things out that you can't say yes to. If you feel like you're going to need to be hovering over that thing that's not the time for that thing yet. We've got a really good example of the process refined. a good starting object and a good example of water. Yeah, which is water. And an example of how that can and will go wrong, which is tires. How will you find the next loose part? I mostly looked at the children to see what they're showing me that they wish they could do. So an example of that would be we have a few pieces of cloth out on the playground now and there are no swings on the playground. So the children immediately turned the cloth into swings and I only put out a few at first so we can see how it goes and the swings have been up for most of the year now and it feels to me at least like now they're just part of the landscape. So I think it might be time soon to add a bit more because it's something that the kids have shown me that they obviously really care about and it's something that the teachers have seen at this point how it can work. And it's then it's just thinking about like what opportunities does a certain part provide and that's where a Ford and Sere comes in. And also just in the general thinking about like what makes a good loose part. Like is it open ended? Like can the children manipulate this themselves? Is it made of a material that we can leave out? Because we leave most of our materials out now so it needs to be like we don't put cardboard out because it would just melt in the rain. Yeah so durability like can we get enough of this? So that it's not just one thing that everyone wants to use. Although that can be fun too. Just to tie back to something we talked about earlier about talking. Yeah like about the adults talking in the space. Like the tire thing when I just imagine that I just imagine so much finger wagging and wait or you know that's going to fall on you. You know that kind of advice. Or honestly even worse which I think was what was happening instead was the teachers are feeling like I guess the school wants us to let this happen now and not saying anything at all and being scared. And not feeling like they had any control over what was happening to their kids. And these like every teacher cares so much about the kids that are with them every day. So that's been part of this process too is making sure that they're part of it. I'm curious and I guess to hear how you feel like your responsibility towards the children. What do you hope that this does for them in their day? It's really lovely to work in a school because as many complications as it brings in I know that there is going to be that bit of time every single day that the kids will have to play. And I can't know that about the rest of their lives. I hope that they're playing when they go home also. But I know that they're playing when they come to school every day. [Music] One of the things that's nice about school being a place for child directed play is that it's the same kids every day they can leave something come back to it that like place to return to. How important is that? Yeah. It can be incredibly important. You build up a relationship with a place over time and the other people who you see in that place and school is incredibly potent in that. You know, we all went to school. What do you think might have been different if your school had had a play worker? There was kind of a myth at my school because my school had a big hill in the backyard and there was this myth that like sometimes on a snow day that teachers will let you take lunch trays out and slide down the hill and go sledding on the hill. That happened once. And that was sort of like this legend in the school that the kids are always like maybe we'll get to go sledding. You know, on a very snowy day. And that never happened while I was there. But it must have happened once because it was sort of, you know, in the air. Oh my god. It's just how long that like memory can be. Right. Like children's cultural memory. Like that could have been years before. And also with regards to time like school and pop-ups, the thing that they have in common like recess is this sort of like thing where the kid is on a schedule that's not their own right? Like the parents brought them here or like it's 1130 or whatever time. It's like, okay, it's time to have fun now. Go. Go have fun now until I say that the time for fun is over. And so it's like hard to have fun on demand, you know. It is. I sometimes think it's like as a comparison to those friends that like forced you to get up and dance. Yeah, yeah. When like you don't want to get up and dance and you're not ready to get up and dance. But like sometimes it turns out fun anyway. But it's still like not the best way to get a party started. Why? Why? The alternative, the way to have fun on your own time right is to have lots of time. That also sounds like the technical or fantasy of many things that I know. What does? Right. Like a whole day off at home. Right. I think because I think normally kids' experiences with time these days are like tightly, tightly regulated. You know, it's like down to like the 20 minutes if you're lucky, most recess. And then it gets taken away if you've gotten trouble too, right, for a lot of kids. So like I think our concept of how much time is necessary sometimes. It's like, I don't know. Like people have asked with pop-ups what we, like how the length of time that we suggest. And we usually say three hours. Because like it's long enough for people to come and feel like they've stayed for a long chunk of time. It's short enough that your volunteers don't like hate you. And it seems to work. But similarly when people have asked sometimes, like well I only have an hour because I'm in a school or I only have a half an hour. We're like, then do that. Like do whatever you can because the kids are going to get something out of it. And they always do. Yeah, hopefully that permission kind of resonates, right? Like they came to the pop-up adventure playground for a half an hour or they were at had 20 minutes of recess to work in a mud kitchen. And then when they get home and they see, you know, a pot or a pan, they see more opportunity in it than they might have if they hadn't had. That experience earlier. Yeah. I hope so. I've read some of that from kids sometimes. Like one of them brought in a frog that she'd caught at home after she learned how to catch frogs at an adventure playground. And I was like, well, this is going in the annual report. So if you're listening to this podcast, then chances are we have a few other interests in common too. Like all people, we are interested in a bunch of different things at any given time. And so now we're going to introduce a little section called, if you like this, then you're like. This. in which we each tell you one thing that we are super into right now. Cool. Ma'am, what do you recommend? So my recommendation is fostering kittens, actually. Oh my God, Ma'am has kittens all over his house. I have literally. I don't know if you've heard them in this recording because they may have been bouncing around. I have a mama cat and three baby kittens and they're so adorable. So Ma'am, you got the kittens when they were like, could fit in the palm of your hand and their eyes weren't even open yet? Yeah. Oh my gosh. And they were three days old and Mama was taking care of them. She was feeding them. They didn't even look like cats yet. Their eyes were shut, their ears were shut, they were blind and deaf, and they were just. They squeak and they walk around tiny bit and they're the most adorable things. And then you watch them grow into kittens that you would recognize otherwise, and they progressively explore the house and walk around tentatively and look around and then they play with each other. And the other thing that I would say is that especially in the context of playwork, for me watching the mother interact with these three kittens, is a lesson in playwork. It's like she sort of is there, she always knows where they are, but she doesn't intervene when they're playing, unless they're sort of calling out for help to her, she'll come and check on them. She doesn't always even grab them to pick them up. She'll just sort of be a presence to make sure they're okay. And they do some crazy shit. They'll wrestle with each other and bite each other and then fall off of wherever they're wrestling onto the floor. But the other thing that I would say that's really cool is watching their play process is really interesting, where they'll chase their tail, they'll play with each other, but they'll also explore things that this really tentative way that kids sometimes do, where they'll be like, "I don't know if I can do this whole thing yet, but I'm going to try as much as I feel comfortable with," and then back off, and then do it again a little bit more, and then back off again, and then try it and fall, and try it again and do it this way. And it's just a really cool thing to watch, especially because they're kids. I would watch and listen to your voice over kids. And the day of the week, close-kitten observations with my ass every Thursday. Yes, these tweets some kitten pictures are. I will do that. I will definitely tweet some some videos or some pictures kittens. God they're cute Cool. I'll recommend another podcast that I listened to and really was delightful It's called bees big laughs bees big laughs podcast and it's an interview show hosted by a 10 year old girl And she interviews women actor comedians So you know Carrie Brownstein from Slater Kinney and Portlandia Abby Jacobson from Broad City and other really Funny women and it's just super charming and sweet So if you have a work commute or go to the gym or our person who listens to podcasts other than this one I definitely recommend bees big laughs. It's very cute. That sounds like so much fun. I want to listen to that I love all those people. I know the people are cool and the girl is delightful Be age 10 interviewing bad ass women funny ladies My my recommendation also includes a bad ass woman. Oh, Elephids Gerald. Yes And her her version of paper moon Which is a really lovely song that you might I don't know I feel like a lot of people knew and then forgot that they know Like a lot of old tunes and it's always been in my mind like an unofficial anthem for playwork and Even as I say that I can hear a couple of play work has been like that It suggests too highly interventionist of a relationship but But there are times when kids do like look to us to support their dream and For me like paper moon really gets at that moment when like having somebody else See your idea like makes it become true Moan sailing over Cardboard see but it wouldn't be make believe if you believe in me Yes, it's only a Thank you to our guest Alex Cote you can read more from Alex on her blog playbound playbound dot word press dot com Special thanks to Riverville Country School for taking the risk of incorporating playwork in their playground You can see pictures of the space on our website at playworkpodcast.com We'll also post links to the playwork primer free download and also that licks it water dripper thing that Alex installed on her school playground Plus photos of the parish school adventure playground in Houston that we talked about in part one It's a beautiful spot. You've got to see the photos or you can't believe it Subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts while you're there You can rate us and write a review if you'd like this and want more episodes email us and tell us that you're listening We'd love to hear your questions. You can tweet us at playwork podcast or email hello at playworkpodcast.com And that's all. Thank you. Thanks for listening everyone. Bye Only a canvas guy Hey, no A Muslim tree. My boy. But it wouldn't be make me leave if you believe me Without your It's a long, long, long parade without your love Get some melody played in a penny arcade It's a bottom-end Bailey world Just as funny as it can be What it wouldn't be make me leave if you believe in me It's funny. It's plain to see How happy I would be if you believe in me You