Episode 1: Jey Austen

Welcome to the Name Your Layers Podcast. A podcast where I, Alyssa, talk to fellow designers and chat all things branding and design. We'll cover their background and sometimes their non-linear path to becoming a designer. We'll talk tools, fonts, and all things around brand identity, and pretty much life stuff as well. This podcast doesn't require a design degree. You don't have to have a favorite font and you don't even have to be a designer to listen. Come for the conversation, but stay for the good vibes. Today, on the podcast, we have Joy. Honestly, Joy is someone I've wanted to talk to you forever. We met on Twitter because that's the world we live in. Joy quickly became one of my favorite people I've ever met, whether in real life or virtually. She's amazing. She's got an awesome background. We realized while talking that we have a ton of common. Honestly, the whole conversation just made my day. It was snowing outside, but honestly, she was a beam of light inside my headphones. I would talk to her any day and week. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. She's currently a brand designer for a FinTech company. Joy's journey is just amazing. It's super inspirational. She gives great advice. She knows what she's doing. She's also the coolest human being I've ever met. Spoiler alert, I'm probably going to say that about every single guest on Named Real Airs. So it is what it is, but I'm stoked for a windowless and enjoy and let's get into it. Here is Joy on this week's episode of Name Your Layers. Tell me who are you. Hi, yeah, so my name is Joy Cosby. I'm a brand designer in Hofston. I've been designing for about eight years now. Right now I work as a senior designer for a FinTech company. Doing like brand design on it. So that's awesome. Well, I know you're a big pro create fan, right? Are you using pro create like your day to day? Or is that just like your free time interest? It's really great. It's kind of, it's definitely a free time thing. It's a release. It's. When going to art school for like a minute and art becomes your job. It's really hard to get back into the space of just doing it to enjoy. So I do. I do. I enjoy it. I used to do it for my job. But now I mainly use big. I'm not a big fan of art. And here we are. That's so funny. So what does he think about what you do today? Does he like, I told you so? You know, he is sense retired because like he was like, you know, building search engines that were specifically Texas back before Google was a thing, you know. And so he just like sees what I'm doing and he's just like, so like, can you build me a website, I want to make a social network kind of like, I can't. I make, I make pretty ads of, but that's cool. So do you think like, so then did you like, where did you go? Did you just take all your dad's knowledge or did you, one of those self taught designers or did you go to school for it? Uh, that's a, that's an interesting question. So I mean, I got big into the scene phase and did just a bunch of like designs where it's just like making your selfies, you know, and then, and then in like a high school, I got into like creating digital art or like, repelering art. That's cool. Mm-hmm. And I vaguely remember like, placing and graphic design stuff and like, but I would go into a really small school so that, uh, so like interstate competitions. Um, but then I got to college and I started out like, I thought I was going to go into computer science and I got there and I was just like, I can't not have like art or design in my life and some capacity. So I went and tried to do this studio art with graphic design specialty and after, uh, continually like putting my all into like figure drawing or whenever I'm fun, getting great and indensisantly and not really knowing what I'm doing and realizing like, there's only a few courses that they actually teach and design. Um, uh, what's the point? So I just, I was like, I'd rather learn like a new skill so I just quit and went to the film department. That's cool. Yeah. I, um, so my second semester of college, it was still like 17 and I was like, you know what, I've been doing design for a while and I needed a work study job and so I started working for the athletics department at my school. Uh, and then my boss was like, you know, you're really creative and you don't like sports. I don't know why you're here. Um, I'm sure there's other officers like go, go be creative. Um, and he's a good guy. He works at Indeed now on his like a product. Um, but, but yeah. And so I was, I was working in sports marketing like, uh, as a 17 year old and so I switched over and did, um, for like two or three years, like the student activities, like, big events at my school and I would do like all of the illustrations and the posters and everything for that and learned a lot just from getting paid to do it. Uh, and learning on the job and everything was remote. And this guy was a limit because I didn't have a lot of, uh, like they didn't have specific colors for me to use or anything. It was just whatever I wanted to do. That's cool. When you write the book about your life, can there be a chapter that says you don't really like sports? Basically what he told you, you know, like sports go work in different department, but you're really good at this. Yeah, yeah, I know. And I mean, you know, and that was a really good thing for him to tell me because I was like, man, I don't know why I don't like this. I like this. I like what I'm doing, but I just hate it. Um, uh, that's funny. Um, I know a lot of designers like now as like careers, they find themselves like, oh, I'm working at like some banking app and they're like, but I have no interest in money or they're working at like some sports like fantasy football app and like, but I hate sports. I love designing. I don't know. I don't want to talk about you. I don't want to dunk on you. FinTech is fine. FinTech pays. No, no, no, I'll explain everything. I promise. Uh, but keep going. I think this is an awesome story. And I love the city learned by doing. Um, uh, there's something to be said about when you have no like real rules and you're like, I get to decide the color palette. I get to decide the funds. Like that's for me like where I've done my best learning is that way. It's like I do random portfolio things where like I it's not, I'm not doing it for a client. I just find something and I just want to design and I do it in my own way with no rules. And that's where like I discovered new stuff, doing it that way. Um, you guys 1000% like looking back at a lot of those designs. One of them were terrible. And, and some of them I had like been really inspired. Um, and I was like, you know what? Looking back on this like I wouldn't mind being attached to this still. Um, so, so yeah, it was a lot of learning and it was a lot of like my bosses just like, you only use Photoshop and not illustrator here. Hey, tell these Linda.com courses really quick and come back to me next week. Uh, that's cool. I like that. That's a cool way to learn. Yeah, exactly. Because I'm like, I'm getting paid for it. Uh, and I am being able to do whatever. Uh, and a lot of those bosses that I had, uh, throughout because I switched to another department for like, how are we just, uh, after that and did, um, like career and professional like, like I did all of their posters and that's like still invests me to the stand like holding up and it's like, Hey, I'm the marketing director at this place and we needed to find her. Can you like do stuff for me? Uh, and I just, it's, it's, it's good to know that it's like, Oh, I wasn't, I wasn't just like a student designer that was just learning like, y'all invested in me and really supported me. So it's, it's good to like have those like mentorship kind of things, even with people that aren't in your field these days. Yeah, no, I think that's really awesome. Your story is probably one of my favorites that I've ever heard because I think it's so cool to happen. Um, so, so then after that, what did you do next? Well, so that's the funny thing is I always saw graphic design as like the backup boring office check. I didn't mean that in loving way, but, uh, in college, I was just, I was doing film and then I really liked films. I didn't cost student design and makeup and like, I was a carpenter and a welder and, uh, like got paid for that. I worked in so cool. Yeah, it was a vibe. I, and like doing like theater and stuff. And so when I graduated, the first thing that I did was I went and, um, like my room was paid for and I worked as a makeup artist in Ohio for like all summer long. Um, and I was so right. Yeah, I did right after that. I went to Florida to work in a theme park to essentially like help build their subs and like take fake blood on all of their like Halloween stuff and like do all of their like Christmas stuff. Um, this is the coolest, this is the coolest origin story I've ever heard. Like I've heard entry. You know the designers that are like, I went to school and then I got a job and I'm like, no, that's cool for you, but it's interesting. Um, there needs to be a movie made about your life because I kind of had a feeling we've done a lot of stuff because you moved around a lot, but this is like, this like exceeding expectations. Oh, man, it gets so much worse. So, um, so during that time, uh, at working at the theme park, um, one of my very dear best friends was really amazing at Wigs. And I was like, heck yeah, like you're talented at both and I invested in you. And so there was this conference that was coming into town that was like a computer conference. And it was like $400 apiece to get in this conference. And I said, you know, there are some dumb people posting their badges online. Um, so I photoshopped up some badges and we went in, uh, we drove four hours these way there and back and I was just like trying to, because I just, I think that like the opportunities, um, for people to advance like, or should be limited to people that can afford to go to things like. Agreed. No, no, you're not the first person I've ever heard say this, especially with people that have amazing Photoshop skills. Um, no, I, yes. I, I, I think about it, if like I had not access to Photoshop, that's a kid, but I mean, I had to find out. Oh, no, I mean, I think the same thing. I mean, there's kids that are like, I mean, thank God, like the playing field is like a little bit, you know, it's a lower barrier to entry now with like what we have. And there's a lot of like free versions of things are like alternatives, but all I think the same thing with like I hadn't, and I couldn't afford Photoshop or Adobe back then. I had access to school. That's how I got it. Yeah. That's like 1000 versus. Yeah. Yeah, it's still an expensive tool. I'm not happy about what I'm paying. No, I will get into that later. But yeah, I just, I really think that access to education, whatever field you're in and access to opportunities should be made available for everyone. So, agreed. - Agreed. - So yeah. (laughs) But anyway. That story is just very important because it precludes another story. Okay, go on. I'll tell you a story you can end up with. So then right after I was done working for this art director, doing scenic work stuff, I really needed a job. And you know, I probably got like the middle class background. And so I moved to Florida because I thought like 1375 an hour, that was like so much money, but my six month contract was up. And so I ended up getting hired by their sister, theme park for, and I was, and they were like, had it, had like an hourly range. And I was like, oh my god, $15 an hour, that is like so much money. And so I stayed living in Tampa and drove into Orlando every day, 70 miles to go work as a like a graphic designer and ended up getting to like work with our director, some BSS staff, our director for some stuff. But that's so fun. Yeah, no, the money, big deal. I remember my first legit graphic design in house job, it was like an intern, listed as an intern and it was like $13 an hour. And this is that area. Yeah, this is the Bay Area too. And I was just like stoked. I was doing like freelance stuff. I, you know, I was doing like a little bit of this and I was like, that's a lot of money or at least it felt like it at that age. And then she's like, yeah, then they came and they're like, we're going to make you not an intern that she bumped it up to like 1875. And I remember thinking like, I just won a lot of like, can't hold me down. That was the coolest experience. But then it was at a medical device company. So it wasn't like super amazingly fun. But I learned a lot about packaging design. But yeah, I just, I remember that like 13, I thought $13 was like huge. Yeah, because my first like the Bay Area athletics, like that, it was work study and it was 725 and hour. Yeah, well, I mean, that and you're not making anything that feels like something. Yeah. And it was my first job ever. I mean, I went on to be a barista and stuff after that. But I didn't know. And it's funny because later on when I was doing work study, like my last year there, because I worked five years and the boss that I got was like, you know what? Like I had everyone that's a minute portfolio. So yours was like the best one. And like you're clear to the most experienced. But also like I want to get you the most that you can because it's already your money. Because it's the government's because it's federal work study. So she got it as high as it can go, which was 13 hours. And I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. Yeah, no, it's I mean, I think everyone, hopefully everyone that's humble remembers their first like big, like, oh my god, I made it moment, which is making a living, getting that that wage. Yeah. So you were community said, how many miles to get the job? Seven. And you had to be there before the park opened a lot of times if there was like installations and things. So I believe my house at 230 in the morning to get there at 4 AM. And like listen to scary podcasts. And then when my co-workers got there at 6 AM, I would scream because I would think that I was going to be haunted. Because you know, you're working on the phone. Since this is Florida, was it pretty much a year round theme park? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh wow. Holder you at the time driving like that far because I, that's a far. 23, 24. I ran off the road at one point. Oh my god. And oh man, it was just scary like, it's swerved and almost hit the median and then swerved and almost it defenced. I was going like 80. And all that I needed done on my car was just two new tires. Oh wow. Yeah, you need, we need to make your start your life into a movie. Like, it's fascinating. This is the shit you've been through. So then okay, what happened after the theme, after the after this job? Well, so I realized that I was tired of driving and it was taking a toll on me. And I, I really had started to do my research and was like, oh, all the, all the real designers that went to school for the time, and forget ad agencies. So that's what I need to do to improve that I've, a real designer. Since I'm starting to get into this now and I'm not just like running around painting blood on things anymore, like I'm actually doing design. So I, I started following all the ad agencies that I could on Instagram. And I went to like a bunch of like any free event that I could find. And then I found out that they were hosting this thing called the AdiUs, which are like ad design awards. And I hold on how will the mail this time? I think I've still like 24 maybe. Yeah. And so I found out they were hosting the AdiUs, but it was $100 to take it. And your girl was making $15. So that was a compliment. Yeah, that's cool. And so I realized, you know, maybe since it's taking place at a public market, I can just go and sit and work at the coffee shop right next door and pretend like maybe and part of it and then I'll like strike up conversations and that work with the people who are coming outside to go to the bar. So I dress up like this is like, this is like when bands follow like other bands on the floor and like hope they can like give them their demo. This is like the designer version of that. And this is 100% what that was. So anyway, so I went and I was just sitting there like working on design and I got finished with my freelance in like 20 minutes. And I was like, shit, now whatever you got to do. And I'm just seeing people go in and out of this thing. So I go and I put my laptop in the car and I was going to sound really weird, but I went, I went into the bathroom and just started like printing like I was just like looking in the mirror and like complimenting people and their dresses and a strike up a conversation with some of them and then walked with them into the back door and it entered and snuck into the out of this. That's that is a gangster move. I respect that. That's smart. You're like, you're not going to hold a different level to think of like this stuff, but I respect it. That is cool. Oh, I wasn't going to let this like world I wanted to get a part of the way for me because I could do before it. Yeah, no, that goes back to the other things like things shouldn't be like it's ridiculous how much like conferences cost. I've always wanted to go to the addies, but it's like it's a flight, it's a ticket, it's a whole thing. Yeah. That's a boss. Yeah, okay. You you sneak in when I'm next. So I struck up a conversation with someone next to me and they were the speed of human being that happens to work for an ad agency that was there. And so after the awards ceremony, I met all of them and they were all held in drunk, so they'd love to meet. And we all got in finatas together afterwards. And then they were like, well, we have a UI design position open come in for an interview. So I said cool. And the next week I had an interview with them. Did you know what an UI designer was? No. So we get them. And they interview with okay. And the guy had mentioned that he was going to go to self-isolped dress the next week. And I this is all at Tampa. So knowing often very well. I went home and I made an app kind of ask thing. It looks terrible looking back on it. I put like wood textures of like cactus colors of like burnt orange because I was trying to make it all awesome. And but then I used all the PDF tools to make it all linkable to actual Google map results. I like to do an Austin like places to get going tacos all the coffee shops and good bars. And they were like listen Google. So it was like useful to him. And you know, once I swear I did not get this job. I probably shouldn't have made that thing this end and end just be like here something useful for you because it just clearly shows that I had no idea what UI design was. But they kept up with me. When they when if their clients had a graphic designer or designer opening, they like messaged me about it. And at the time I was I'd already found another job actually with the the market that was hosting the Addies needed a designer. And I got to do like a bunch of illustration and have a bunch of creative control. But these people kept up with me. And I saw them the next year when I snuck into the Addies with a student ticket. Because I felt bad for not paying $100 the first year. So I decided 25 the next year sign. And they they introduced me as oh my goodness this person is the one that made like this off myself us design for us and it was really cool and So I've kept up with these people and they're very nice and they went like send me opportunities and like talk about like mentorship and stuff. So even though it didn't work out as a job. It was still like really cool. Yeah, it's networking. It's all it is. It's just everybody kind of knows each other to an extent like six degrees of I guess at this point is going to be six degrees of joy. I think I know everybody at this point. Yeah, so yeah, and it was fun and I started going to like drink and draw like illustrator events like around Tampa and got really involved in the community there. They have like a burless think you're drawing and I got involved in like the dribble meetups and so I started talking to a lot of people. and I learned what UI design was. I'm like product designers that were in the Tampa area. And one of them like led the sketch made up group. And all of them started talking about like salary and deserving what. You should like making what you should deserve and knowing your worth. And they all were very confident and male. And I was like, oh, I need to like, I need to learn this confidence. So that I can start getting paid what I'm worth. And I, I had found a job in Tampa and it was like a restaurant company slash market. And they were always opening a restaurant. So I got to work on designing for new restaurants. And I was also doing all of the brand stuff and like doing all of the ads for 23 open restaurants. They were working on like these nearby resort like lagoon. So I was doing stuff for that. So I was essentially doing all of the stuff. I was our dressing photoshoots and everything. But I was just one graphic designer by myself for a restaurant company. And it was fun, but the pandemic hit and it's Florida and they kept insisting you would go in the office. And I was the only one wearing a mask. I just, I realized I wasn't happy and I missed my family. So I decided to pack it up and move to Austin. I remember that I remember that tweet saga. You drove or do you fly? Yeah. Yeah. No. I drove. Well, so then when you moved to Austin, you did you did or you didn't have a job lined up. I did it. So I had saved up a little bit and I was like, you know what, I'll freelance. And I'll work on my portfolio. I'll find something. I at that point realized that while I did enjoy illustration and graphic design that I wanted to get more into grade design. I wanted to do a little bit of more like website stuff because I started like working with like repress sites of public sites. And I really just wanted to like pivot in my career. So I took some time off. And. And it was great. I started working with her create a lot more and realized, you know, I would really like to teach this. I think that it's important for people to be able to have access to our education. And so I started using TikTok as a platform to quickly share just like little tips, but also. I think that that's where a lot of teenagers and young artists are going to be and giving them knowledge and access to someone that's in the industry. And I think it's really important to me to start learning, to be able to see what I'm doing and what I'm doing. And I think that's really important for me. And I think that's really important for me to be able to see a lot more. And I didn't realize how much I'd learned until I started my new job. I was like, I wasn't working doing any of this a year ago. That's also. Yeah. That's just cool. Yeah. I like learned fun like animation and perforating. And I think that's just a lot of fun. I just want to let you know we are not going to have ads on this podcast. We're just going to have shout outs and those shout outs include small businesses that I love. So first up, we have sparks of joy. Sparks of joy. Sparks of joy is by Kelly Goodwin. And it's a really thoughtful, amazing beautifully handwritten cards that you can buy. They're great for postcards, they're great for flat cards. You name it. They're really well thought out. They're amazing. And Kelly's just a good person. And I want to see her do really well in life. I love what she's doing. I think you'll love it too. So get yourself some cards. Again, that's sparks of joy. Co.com. And let me know what you want to get. Show me on Twitter or mail me. Don't mail me one actually. That's where you don't do that. Just support Kelly and sparks of joy. And yeah, let's get back to that episode. And go. So today you all, what's your title? Or do you officially like a brand designer? You do a little bit of everything now. I do a little bit of everything. So my official title is just senior designer. I work for a FN Tech company. And I work on the marketing team. They just got a series of funding. So they hired a whole design team all at once. And there's. Yeah. And so my position is senior designer on track for creative. Directing opportunities. And. We have. So it's me and one other senior designer and two change signers. And so our creative director. That's cool. I'm assuming it sounds like you like it, which is like cool. I. Stuff you were down there ago. That's cool. Yeah, exactly. It's. I was never expecting that I would like FN Tech. From someone that's done a lot of creative stuff. FN Tech just sounds so. Not creative. It sounds like you're going to be using the same colors as not. I'm just making white papers all day. Yeah. Um, yes. And. So when I first talked to my boss and I was interviewing. He just seemed really keen on mentorship. And. I just had a lot of values that really aligned. I was. I was concerned about. Diversity in the workplace. Just. Work life balance and a lot of other things. And concerned about like, how are you going to invest in your team? And. He was able to answer a lot of those questions for me really easily. And very, and he invited me to the like happy hour meetup with the team before. Before I had accepted the offer. And everyone else had. And they were just really lovely people. And I like. Clicked while with them very immediately. So. So it's just. It's a good. It's good vibes. - Feel like FinTech is fun. I used to work in cybersecurity DevOps, and it doesn't sound sexy. But it was actually some of the most creative stuff I worked on. 'Cause I think especially when you get like-- And then similarly, Perpello, what I was at, it's a very stoshy old industry that, the only difference between them is they went on the cloud first. So, we got to be fun and do cool things, and think outside the box, and the colors were not your standard. What I call Salesforce Blue, it was-- - Yeah. - You got to be different. - Don't give me wrong, there are some FinTech and some SaaS companies that are boring as hell. And I don't know why, I mean, teach their own, I guess. But there are some, there are times where there's really fun projects. - Yeah. So, and not to think as it's not. So, I guess it's okay if I explain my company a little bit. - Yeah, no, go for it, yeah. - Yeah, I love them, by the way. I love that you asked, like, the fact that you said you were important, like, diversity was important to you. And you did your research, I think that is amazing. - Well, because I, and this gonna be edited out, I don't mind, but just to explain a little bit there, as a queer person with a lot of friends of color, I want to be in a place that really fosters community for everyone. And I applied to another place, and they said, oh yeah, we're really big on diversity, we have a Slack channel, and everyone I interviewed with was white in street. And I was just like, okay, but what are you doing about it? - No, yeah, I mean, - I know it's a great point. - Yeah. And with my boss, he was like, you know what, I can get HR numbers for you if you want. and it is a FENTAC company and I can just say that I have to leave by example with my own team. I don't know. I'm also new to the company but everyone on our marketing team is like women. Our CMO is queer and then the junior designers that we were he hired were both women of color. That's amazing. So I was like okay even though this is your stereotypical straight white dude creative director. I can think he's trying. No that's that's important and I know that's important to you and it's important to me and someone that's interviewing and like looking for my next thing. That's important to me when I was talking in companies before the big thing I've been asking people is like hey how have you been helping your employees during 2020 and I let each employer they all take their own spin on it they either go like the diversity route or they go the political route or they go like the oh when black lives matter happened we did this like I very much use it as like an open entity to see what approach they're gonna take and don't get me a lot of them fail the question. And then some other ones were like super candid there was one I was talking to in December and they're like you know what we did like a lot of like internal work and realized like hey 90% of us are white we have mostly white employees are bored as white there's no women in leadership like some are very candid honest and then they said like you know we're not where we want to be so we understand if this isn't for you and I appreciate it. I liked that a lot. And for Fintech and especially this company I I have all the other companies that I've worked for usually like people off regularly and this is a growing company and like the the environment change that that is it's really lovely like the CEO when he met our team like he asked my pronouns like in a company with 150 people which was just really lovely and he like wrote them down and like asked again to make sure that he got you know yeah that doesn't that doesn't always happen and that's a good sign I like that that's why I'm glad that I'm happy that you found something that it's for you especially you know just in this there's a lot going on right now and I think it's really cool and that actually makes me really hopeful that more companies will be like that that's awesome. Yeah yeah and so so um but like day to day the work is we we design and build um thanks in 90 days. I don't exactly know those specifics but it's like niche banks for like things for newlyweds or banks and so our teamwork says an in-house agency designing like UI and website and branding and digital ads for these banks for presentations so that they can like pitch them to different companies so it's a lot like working in a agency but in-house and then we also do the branding for our company. That's awesome that's cool and you guys are all remote right now I presume right? We're all all laser mode. That's cool. Is it is it based and is it just like they've always been remote to have the get the jump or the pandemic made them remote? I think it's always in remote because the company is based out of Miami but all of my design team works in Austin and or live in Austin and this CEO like listen like Colorado or something. Oh so I'm so happy for you because I've followed it long enough to know like the saga of everything so I think the pumps that you have an awesome place to be and they appreciate you and yeah um so then it goes to my question then we kind of touched on your favorite tools but what are you so based on whether it's freelance free time work stuff what is like your go-to site book podcast where do you go to inspiration or is it as simple as like I just go walk outside like what do you what do you turn to if you're stuck? No um no that's a really cool question um I'll do a lot of different things so obviously like dribble and penchrist but then also I a lot of Twitter actually I create a lot of different lists on Twitter some of them private some of them public so like I have like list of like people that I respect in the design and I'll scroll through their stuff and when I'm like looking for inspiration as far as like new tools they're like different ways to use pigment and stuff at Rajee has like five minute Figma videos that that I love because with ADHD that's five minutes is about how much you're gonna get me to focus on learning something so so there's a great I think there's someone else that's like Figma 55 it's just like one minute Figma videos so that's cool okay um yeah no same I think we look at similar things I think I follow some of your lists too so um that's do you listen to that's one thing I'm always wondering about you do you listen to music or podcasts when you're actually like in the zone working yeah so I listen to I make like a different playlist every single day so I'm a big spot if I use there always have them and then I also is an audiobooks uh like high fantasy like and the guy reading it has like a big British accent kind of audiobooks and then one thing that's yeah and one thing that's really helped me during the pandemic is um I have friends that we will hop into like an audio chat and like just have music playing in the background and it's just this working together and like occasionally like sharing like a cool font or uh that sounds really nerdy but like our memes and stuff to like break the silence but it's it's like co-working but no as soon as you said that I was like that's the cool stuff like what I miss about kind of being your people whether it's like a coffee shop or like in an office for you just like you hear music and then you randomly like you hear each other like cursing at your computer and you're like back yeah or whatever it is and yeah I miss that I like that that you guys do that pretty cool yeah like two of my best friends go top like the same keyboard and and so you just like hear it in the background and you're just like all these typing noise it's so nice that's cool I know I do miss my uh my old co-worker he had like I called it a DMB keyboard because it was so loud and I'm like oh my god I miss that um when I'm working hearing the sound of it uh what is like your so you say like so if you're like ever blocked like you have a project you just can't just can't get there what's like your first thing is like you drink coffee you go for a walk you walk the dog like what's your uh what's your method of choice going outside I wish that I was not kind of first uh yeah no if uh if it's if it's not working out for me that night I'm I'm turning it off you know and I'm stepping away from the computer uh or texting my friends and asking if they want to play like virtual board games so like I need a complete like switch because if it's it's not working and just I'm gonna have to sleep before I come back to it uh yeah and and sometimes it's like going for a drive there's there's a coffee shop that has like a taco taco truck right next door and so I've been spending a lot of time just uh driving there and back if I just need a break for a minute so that I can get back in the zone that's cool yeah I think a lot of the time so you more of a late night person or early morning oh I'm 100% late night like if 5 a.m. could be an acceptable bedtime every day I would do it I think I knew that I figured I I'm a similar way I'd rather stay up late and work on something then wake up early uh I can't do that I don't know how people do it like starting at like at 10 p.m. and like oh all of the stuff that I couldn't do earlier in the day I can finally start working on now and I'll start working like and I'm a reporter or something and I'm like why am I like a presentation like why am I doing this at 10 at night like I couldn't have done it during the day when I'm awake when my coworkers are do you have a are you one of those people that when you're working you just kind of like for me hours go by and I like I'm like oh I have it boob I have it like done I'm like just stuck on my computer because I get so lost and it's one of those things um my husband's always like he he's like oh you're in the zone right now it's like it's like it's not something you can like take a break from if you're in it because I don't want to lose it uh yeah and that's the thing like especially certain types of projects like if I'm doing like coding or whatever it is like deck design I start like getting on a roll and I'm like oh yeah he stopped because then I can't yeah I'm going back in oh my god yeah with ADHD I'm straight up like uh it'll take me forever to focus and then like once I finally do I'm I I have to get it done I'm I'm not moving until it's done because I don't know when I'll be able to focus again that's funny um okay then I have a question for you to say what would I what would 13 year old joy think of of you today when she'd like oh yeah 13 year old me would think I'm cool or like at least like my job because I remember like sorry oh no no no good good sitting in Barnes and Noble around that age and like going through like all the art magazines and like looking at all this like digital art stuff and thinking it's the coolest thing ever and now it's like I can do that if I want and I do think do you think 13 year old joy would understand what your job is today? no not I would know that I make ads with stuff. And I would think that that's really cool. So. No, that makes sense. What's your, what's like your dream project with your dream client? Like if you could just like, if they could, if they were calling you tomorrow, who is, who's the client with the project? So the client, I, I really care like a lot about certain nonprofits. Like for me, just all the immigration stuff. This is relevant. I promise. No, no, no, no, I know it's important to you and I, and I agree. Like, yeah, I just occasionally will like get high and call. I said demand for like releases people. Sorry, you can take that out. No, no, I know you, so it's fine. Like I, and that's I'm glad you're saying I was, I was hoping you were going to say that, but I'm glad you are saying it. So keep going. Yeah. So, so no, so my dream client would be a racies or racies action fund. They are, they provide legal services to immigrants. Especially people that are. As island seekers at the border that are being detained. And I just, I think it's absolutely disgusting. What? For doing this. So I would love to help make a difference and offer excellence to that. I think that. Well, would you want to work with me? I don't even know, even as just like posters and action fund or they worked with an agency out of New York. A while back. I wrote the name. I forgot. They're wonderful. It's pretty good. They must have, they must have worked with an agency. Yeah. They did. It's. It's called like. Burns and Wakefield or some. It's two people's names. They like came up with like a new kids and cages thing and did like the Skarila R.P. Where they took audio from the. The holding centers and our detention centers and like covered what looked like a body and foil with the cages and. It's not really depressing, but essentially like cops have to like cut them off because they would like. Change them to like various like post and things. To raise awareness or what's happening. I think it would be really awesome to like work like as like an art director or something. On a project that's something that's meaningful that has impact that's actionable. That helps people out because at the end of the day, if we're not helping other people, what are we doing here, you know. I love that you said that. What is a degree of back? What would start to your old joy? What would a what would the dream project look like back then if you're talking to your 13 year old. Oh, back then I'd want to do like album art or something. Or like he completely completely selfish. Like I can get people to do a mural. I was when you could do a mural for them for a paracess you could do it for them. Yeah, I would love that. That's cool. Yeah, what is okay. So this is the this is like we're going to have to like I know you have a great memory because you already have good stories. So what is your favorite project you've worked on to date? I've worked on so many projects over the years. I like some animal rescue stuff. I think probably. The most recent freelance project that I did. I got to work with one of my Twitter friends who does a subscription box for like witchy particles. Okay. Candles and tea and all sorts of stuff. And I got to work with them doing a rebrand of their labels. That's cool. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. So I was like, what's that stuff that you enjoy? You were charged of like doing like the color pro or the topography everything or was it just. Yes. Yeah. So so we kept there logo. But I was able to. And I kept a similar color palette to what they had before, but I made it pastel. And I was like, I was like, I'm not sure if I was going to be able to do that. Yeah, I had a she just gave me a ton of creative control. She was just like, these are some objects that I would like to see. These are some examples of like labels that I've been in the past. Just do whatever you want. And so I got to choose like really thin weight fonts. She she really liked like just that new modern pastel type of like TTC brand. And so I got to choose like a serif font. And so there was like a lot of like. And so there was like. No, she loved everything. For me, there was. Some like as I was drawing the crystal ball. I was like having trouble. Like I don't know how crystal ball stayed bound into their base. And every reference image isn't doing it for me. It's so. So stuff like that. But it's, it's. It's a really good feeling. So that's cool. Yeah. Okay. Well, I have a question I like to end with. And it's if you were in a room with, you know, kids are not even kids. Just anyone that wanted to do what you didn't like, hey, what advice do you have for me? Like, what can I do to do something remotely close to what you do for a living? What would you say? Good. So. So if it's kids go one thing I'm going to start with is, you know, just do whatever you can to be creative. And to not stop creating. And. And you don't need the fancy most expensive event to do to July. You don't need like the most. Like all of these art tools. Like you can just start being creative on your own. And. And then I think from there, like, as far as like a career and start making things that interest you. So using the free tools available or not extensive tools. So like, Figma and love because it's available on every platform and it's free. So like people can start learning it. And. Be able to list it. Start making memes or I have a friend who makes Instagram filters. Like start with what interests you and get into it as a hobby. And really see what you like. And you don't always have to monetize your hobby, of course. But if it's a career that you choose to do, start doing. What you like to do for you and your friends now. That is the best advice. I mean, especially like, yeah, do do. You love you don't. And I love that you say you don't have to monetize it because there's such that hustle culture. Like I must figure out a way to make money off this. And you don't necessarily have to. There's, I mean, there's lots of things people enjoy that you don't have to. I mean, if you want to cool, but you don't have to, don't put obligated to make a profit. And I didn't even know you could do Instagram. I'm not too cool, but you don't have to obligated to make a profit. And I didn't even know you could do Instagram filters like that. That's really cool. Yeah, like I have a friend that just like makes a yard filters for fun. And that's just how they got into it. It makes like fun. Islands or something that you can all get in with your friends and fig my end like. Just the meme capacity. Oh, I mean, you know, I was turning myself green and making fun scene photos. It's like words like, can imagine. Yeah, I think the other thing that I would advise people is. don't take no for an answer and don't undervalue yourself. Especially of like submitting portfolios and like job staff and always thinking, oh, like my portfolio's not done, I can't submit it. Having done on the other end of hiring, no, I promise you, just even your medium effort is still gonna be better than stuff. Like you don't have to worry as long as you're trying and you're using your design principles and you're doing what you know, like you're probably already better than a lot of other candidates and not even realize that you should compare yourself and your job stuff and the important thing. - No, it's totally true. I mean, yeah. - And I think it's not something like, I didn't realize it really either until I was on the other side, like doing interviewing people. 'Cause for me, not to make like a, women are the best, women like, I've seen a lot of men that I'm like, man, like come through the interview process. I'm like, God, I wish I had your confidence. 'Cause I'm over here like doubting if I should apply for a role. So I'm like, I don't know. And then I've been on the other side of it where I see people apply and it's usually very confident men. And I'm like, oh, I should have applied for that job because he just had like, he has the confidence to do it, but not the talent or the work to back it up. - That is so important. Recently I went for a contract full time at my job. And I was talking to my friends, I was like, you know, I've never really negotiated before. Like, should I even do it? Like I've already been working with these people for a few months. And I was like, oh, I'm not gonna do it. And my friend, who I had done the same thing for her a few months back, she messaged me immediately. And she's like, you better not have said that email saying that you accepted the offer yet. And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, think about it. If your name was Matt or something, would you have even thought twice about something like that? (laughs) It's so true. - Yeah. And she sent me the template that she had used for herself that we had all of it. Me and my friends had helped it right. And she's like, use this, write it, send it, I'm not taking no for an answer. And I ended up taking like 5K that I wouldn't have got if I had just one email and they responded immediately. So, yeah. Exactly, right? I had this similar thing recently. I was doing a freelancing and I was like, I had like my gut instinct to say my rate. And I was like, no. And then I just was like, fuck it. And I just sent it. And like, okay, cool. Can you just send it to invoice? And I was like, oh my god. I need to have a little confidence more. 'Cause you know, I mean, you hit the real thing. - You're the only one that undersells yourself. Everyone else already sees your value. That's why they're hitting you up. - Yep, that's exactly. - That is so true. Well, then what are you working on? I know what are you stoked about? Anything you want to plug? You're procreate by you a coffee. - Of course. - Yeah, of course. Anyway, can buy me a coffee if they want. But I don't think anyone should ever have to feel pressured too. I think I'm working on right now. Personally, my next personal project, I kind of started it. I started it a few months ago and then I've sat on it a while and now I'm getting back into it. And it's, I wanna make a pop phone, tear a deck for myself. - It's for like a week. - Take my money. - I have to. - I have no idea what I'm gonna finish it. I don't even know. I've moved boarded it. I've got a color palette. We're gonna see where it goes. But that's my personal project right now. - That's amazing. That is so cool. And honestly, I would expect nothing less from you. - I didn't even touch on that. I guess that's actually one thing before we wrap it up. - I think. - Move boards. Are you like a tactical mood board person or do you do like dribble boards? - Yes. And I, I know this isn't very designer of me, but I love Pinterest. And I get that from, in college, I had to use Pinterest for costume design because all we would do is like pin like old extant garment research. And like we would have to look at like thousands of photos of like old paintings and stuff to make sure that we got like the shapes of garments right. And so I've gotten used to using Pinterest. And the way that their algorithms work is my brain will be like I'll start out with, okay, pop-hunt terror deck. I'm going to first research like old pop-hunt album covers and start pinning those. Okay, now I'm going to go search skate art. Okay, now I'm going to go to my board and I'm going to go hit related. And now it's going to start showing me a bunch more stuff that I'm actually thinking of. Now that I've gotten like my first person research done and just their suggestions really. And that's like personal stuff. If I'm in mood boarding for a job, I do it in stigma. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's amazing. There's nothing wrong with Pinterest. Pinterest is like, I mean, that's the whole point of their algorithm, right? You start pinning things and it starts suggesting it for you. I've gotten similar things. So for me, I do like Spotify playlists and then Spotify starts to recommend songs that other people I'm assuming must have put on like a similar playlist. And that's kind of where I go from there. But oh my god, please let me, I will gladly buy those pop-hunt terror deck for me. That is amazing. How was it when we thought of that? - I don't know, man. Give me like two years. Let me know. - Oh, but we'll see. - That's awesome. All right, what is, I know you changed it often, but what is your current Twitter handle in your Instagram? - I think right now it's at my anti-christ. But I'm not necessarily saying that I've been in tune about design. - I'm not necessarily saying it's the most safer work for you there. - Yeah, you can tell your, your, your, it goes like, it depends on like, I can kind of guess like the type of day you're having and I'm here for you're like one of my favorite people to follow for that reason. - So I'm like, am I going to get educated today? Am I going to laugh? Am I going to cry? Who's to say? You don't know. (laughing) - That's the same. - I think it's awesome. And you know, I mean, I'm sure you follow. There's a lot of people I follow that are like designers and like they post just about UX and that's fine. Like details. - Twitter has given me some of my best friends. - Especially the past year. - And I, it really bugs me when people are not effective. - Are you telling me you don't want to be tweet? - Are you telling me that? You don't like the portrait of me? - I, I would rather die than follow design got readers, probably. I'm sorry, but it just is not. I, it's not that I don't like design because I do and I love seeing design. But I care about people as people first. - Yeah. - No, I mean, it's, yeah, I agree. There are some people that I wonder, you know, what do they really like? But yeah, there's a lot of those out there. I put them in a category of like, portrait from the Caledars. But that's why I love your feed because it's so you and like depending on the time of day, like I think the other day, I was like, so I was like, okay, we're in like the cool space you posted your Spotify playlist of like the 2000s music. I was like, this is a, this is a mood. And then I was like, who knows, the next one could be like, fuck ice, who's to say? Yep. - Yeah. - And I think that's on brand for you and I love it. I don't want you to ever change it. - Thanks. - Awesome. - Thank you for giving me this. You're amazing. Of course, I am gonna stop recording right. (upbeat music)