Episode 1: Identity. Power. Football. The Bill Papastergiadis Interview

Welcome to Unfiltered by Sokka Scene, where the real conversations in Australian football happen. No scripts, no spin, just the truth. This is where industry leaders, decision makers, and custodians of the game speak openly about the challenges, opportunities, and future of football in this country. Proudly brought to you by Zapparis Lawyers, backing the game and the people in it when it matters most. Let's elevate the debate. Our guest speaker today is the National Chairman and Managing Partner at Moraine Agniloias, the President of the Greek Community of Melbourne, the President of South Melbourne Football Club, and a board member of Melbourne University Humanities Foundation, and a family man and a father. Our speaker today is Bill Pappas-Degyatis. Bill, tell us a little bit more about what you do and how you find the time to wear so many hats and give your best to everything you take on. Those hats are in fact just a small portion of the other boards that I do sit in, or that I'm actually involved in. There's also the Victorian Multicultural Commission that I was a recent Commissioner for, as well as the Hellenic Initiative, that I'm a board director of, alongside a number of other board positions. I have found working in this space, that is the space of largely community, because I think football forms part of a community space, vests within a communal approach. In other words, your capacity to work with others. So the moment that you understand that you're only as good as the people you're around and that you need to find a way to work with others, then the rest falls into place. So my capacity and my time to be involved in all of these activities is largely due to the good nature and hard work of those around me who sit within those boards and within that environment. So it's a team effort on and off the field. So you'd say a lot of the things that you take on sort of coincide with each other? Yeah, they do. Everything does flow, because they're all interconnected. So whether you're, for example, at South Melbourne Hall, the technical, the logistical activities that you need to follow may have, for example, a legal implication, whether it's putting together the employment contracts for our players, may have an implication in terms of the lease agreements we have with the State Sports Centre Trust, which is the owner of the Lakeshide Stadium. All of the things that we work in have an interconnection. So my job as a lawyer relates to my work at South Melbourne Hall us, that football environment relates to the Greek community of Melbourne that I'm also involved in through the historic relationships of the Greek community and South Melbourne Hall us through to, for example, the Victoria Multicultural Commission, which is the peak representative body for 50% of Victorians who are either all overseas or have a family member that's born overseas. So all of those things have a thread through them and it's not hard to identify those patterns and to bring and to put a thread through all of them so that you get a good holistic view. Would you say your key role or what you spend the most time doing is working as a lawyer? I absolutely. I mean, that's my full-time job. That's my career. It has been an incredibly rewarding, but at the same time, I'm in the service industry. That's what law is. It's there to deal with people's issues, particularly if you're a litigator, which was my area of practice largely initially. People are coming to us as lawyers because they are unable to resolve a dispute and are so upset about the scenario they're in that they're prepared to spend significant amounts of money with lawyers to find a solution. And so the job of a good competent lawyer is to analyse and assess the legal issue and give good coherent advice that's sensible and appropriate and then find a solution to that problem as quickly as possible. And taking on some of the weight of the burden that the client is feeling because outside of maybe purchasing a home litigation, for example, would be perhaps the most upsetting part of anyone's life and has a significant detrimental effect on their daily activities because they'll be carrying with them. So my job as a lawyer has been to ensure that I understand the client. I give good advice to the client and I try and find a solution as quickly and as efficiently as possible so that that person goes on with their life. That's a service. Yeah. And the areas that I've worked in are largely all service-related. Well, that actually segues perfectly into one of the questions that I wanted to ask you. That's how I see a lawyer, someone who's committed to solving problems for other people. So what makes you want to do that in your spare time as a president of the Greek community, South Melbourne? Yep. Good question. The notion of community that we are all none of us are islands, that we all work within a space where you need interaction, where we're bound together by humanity and by souls and the conscience and the need to find and develop the good in all of us. I think is something that we all need. We've learnt it within our respective communities growing up. I saw that myself within the community that I grew up. That is the Hellenic Australian community and you know, how people gave of themselves for the greater good. And there is something in it where you are not thinking about yourself and where you're working towards a goal, a greater good that's not you. There's something incredibly satisfying in that. And in particular, as you go through that journey of creating something, creating either a centre or a function or an activity as you're going through that process, you meet so many other people, hopefully like-minded. And I have in my life found many, many like-minded people. And then you develop those relationships and the satisfaction of developing those friendships and relationships is immeasurable in terms of what it brings to your life and how satisfying it is for you as a person. So I am a deep believer in encouraging all of us to participate in engaging communal and community action and activity as a means of engaging with others and also seeing something that's beyond themselves which they will find incredibly satisfying. You mentioned a few times focusing on something outside of yourself. And that's something that I've heard a lot of times as advice for when you're feeling stressed or anxious. And I know observation I made of you as soon as you walked in for someone that has so much responsibility, you do seem very relaxed and self-assured. Do you think that that focusing on others can't bring in calm and self-assuredness is true? Oh 100% and that's a great observation. The best way to release some of the anxiety that you're experiencing is to understand the other person and then to understand your place in this world. And quite often when people are feeling anxious it's because the whole world is crushed into themselves and they feel like they are carrying the weight of the world. And as you expand your horizons and as you involve yourself with others, you see the world in, you see your place in the world and you realise that your place is, you know, I don't mean it's at a bad way, but in a bad way, but quite insignificant. And that the world will continue without you, that the weight of the world that you're experiencing is not really reflective of the actual weight of the world itself. It's very personalised. So the more you involve yourself with others, the more you understand others, the better you understand your place in this world and then you can start finding meaning and purpose through that communication and action and activity. Action, as you indicated before, is the best way of overcoming anxiety. Make it happen. Don't dwell on it. Find a way forward. We have to be people that if we can't find that way forward, then find another way forward, or then look for something else. But make sure you're taking those steps every day. The moment you take that first step, you're dealing with whatever it is that anxiety that you're experiencing. I did find one way of putting this in. Within a societal example of what you've just described, is getting into a taxi in Athens. And you hop in a taxi driver, is open, conversing, talking about his experiences, talking about the world, talking about this, that, the other. And within that almost psychoanalytical conversation that you're having with that taxi driver, it releases attention and also the feelings that you feel are so important to you. It gives it space, and you understand that the world is so much bigger than whatever it is that you're experiencing through that conversation. It's what psychoanalysis calls the talking cure. Let's bring it out of yourself. And that's what community activity does. You take yourself into a community space, and you're no longer involved just with yourself. It's actually funny that you use that specific example because I've genuinely lived there. One time when I was supposed to go from MikiNos to Serbia to visit my family, we got from the ferry onto the mainland. And we find out our flight was in maybe three hours, two or three hours, and we found out that all the taxis in Athens were on strike that day. And we were running after the taxis. We were so stressed, we thought we weren't going to be able to make it there, and then luckily one guy was like, it's fine. You know, just pay a bit extra. And the way we calmed down was genuinely just listening to all of his stories. Him just telling us more about Greece, what the people were like there, and we got to their football laughing. He helped us carry in our suitcases. So that was honestly such a perfect example. It's at least at all. And historically, those cabs, they do it far less these days, pick up passengers as you're going to your destination. So if you say, I'm going to wax, as they're driving towards the exit, they'll pull over to someone else who says, "Yep, I'm going that way." And you end up with three or four people in that taxi, all of whom have a story, all of whom are talking to one another, and all of whom are releasing their daily experiences and their views of the world. And as you exit the cab, you too feel a sense of lightness that comes from it. And that's really what being involved in communal activities. And I'd like to think that the law, as well, is part of that because it operates within society. Going back a bit to the law, or being a lawyer, did you always know you wanted to do law? The studying process is very long, whether ever times where you wanted to give up or do something else, or did you have a sure purpose in that all the way through? The, I'm a little bit old, I knew. So the number of professions that were available for us, or the way that we saw the world, particularly back in the early '80s, was relatively limited, particularly coming from a migrant family where I exposure to the broader work environment was quite limited. My dad was a taxi driver. My mum worked as a dressmaker and a fair in a factory. So the types of activities and jobs that we could imagine were relatively limited. So my journey into law came from moments of kindness. And what do I mean by that? In year 10, I was given the opportunity through the work experience that schools offered within a particular work environment to work in law firm. Whilst working there, the young lawyer that was responsible for me noticed a very strong limping. I fractured my ankle, I broke my ankle, playing soccer about three months prior to that. And felt quite empathetic and sympathetic towards my lack of movement. I mean, I was limping quite strongly. And he said, are you getting fissure or anything like that? And then it just, these things didn't really exist. And I said, no, what's fissure? And he said, tomorrow, we're going to leave work a little bit early. You're going to come with me. And I said, where are we going? He said, don't worry about it. I didn't realise, but he was playing for a Coltman football club as an AFL footballer back then. And working as a lawyer? Yeah. Wow. And so he took me to the Coltman football club. We walked into the dressing room and all my, I was a Coltman supporter as well, by chance. All my idols were in that dressing room. And I remember Wayne Hams was on the, on one of the counters getting treated through Wayne Hams off. Got the physio to come and have a look at my leg. Gave me a number of different exercises. Now, whether that had an impact on my recovery, easy relevant, the act of kindness, and the empathy that he showed to me is what counted. And it allowed me to imagine myself in that environment, going forward, like in other words, to work in an environment where you can make a difference to another person's life, not certainly through an injury. But whatever it isn't might be. So I fell in love with that experience, that firm who took me on every summer as well. So after the work experience, every summer I worked at that law firm, phatercopying, giving coffee, getting the coffee orders, etc. And I then got the results at HSC, now VCU, it's now nine as VCA, and I fell into the law. The journey's not easy, it's not an easy journey. And one of the things that I've realised in life, that much of our success, if I can use that word, that much of the success you may achieve, comes from largely not necessarily being the most talented or the brightest or any of these things, but comes from your ability to sustain and move past difficult times. Because those difficult times exist, no matter who you are, where you are, or what stage you are in your life, in your early times, those difficulties because you don't have a perspective of what's in front of you, because you're seeing it for the first time, I'm much more difficult, because you just can't see beyond those difficulties now, after 30 years of experience, which I've now got, I can see when I encounter a difficulty, that it might not be as bad as I imagine it, when you're in your early 20s and you finish your law degree, and you're in law, and you're trying to navigate your way through really complex difficult legal questions, complex difficult environment, which could be quite brutal. It was quite brutal back in the '80s, in terms of the work environment, and the workplace relations. It was really hard, and grit was really the only way forward. And I think that notion of grit is essential to whatever it is, you want to pursue in your life your ability to move past difficulties, hopefully learn from those, and then continue to grow. And as you're going through that, hopefully you've got some learnings about how you will then treat others because of those difficulties that you expressed. We're never going to change everyone, we're never going to change the world, but we can make some small changes within the environment that we're in, and that's been my mantra. Yeah, you said yourself here a little bit older than me. You look great, but your generation, grit and resilience, when I look at my grandparents, my parents, that is at the key of every story, career line, raising the family. And like you said, there were a lot less options back then. I feel like my generation, it's all about what do you want to do and following your heart, necessarily not just being in that survival mode. How do you teach grit to your kids now that they've finished high school and they're moving towards a career path? So a lot of our teaching is through conduct and observation. And my words will have very little meaning if those around me and particularly my children have not observed the pattern of behaviour. So they need to see you as a person working your way through difficult situations and also being open with the people around you and your children about those difficulties, that it's not all glossy and it's not all how it might be made to look on Instagram or in a Hollywood movie. And as you have those conversations and they understand the nature of what it requires to progress, they themselves will then be able to start doing it themselves because they have to do it themselves. You can help guide them and you can hopefully through your conduct show what it is to pick the best possible outcome for yourself and for those around you. And I think over time they will adopt those behaviors or patterns of behaviour for the good of their own lives, really. And we don't always achieve what we want or we don't always get what we want and life's not fair about that. Art, you can give it a pretty good go if you stick out it and I'm seeing that time and time again in life, those who have the ability to stick it out are getting outcomes that are fulfilling for themselves. Have you managed to inspire any of your own children to go down the legal route or not really? So, yeah, my son, I haven't spoken about it about doing law to my children and if anything quite often when you're in a profession you try and encourage your children to think more broadly. Because there are, you want them to pick something that they can self-realise, feel like they're realising themselves in it so you don't want to limit them to your own particular experience or work environment. So, I was almost talked down the law, not because I haven't found a fulfilling, I love the law and I love the environment I work in and I love the people I work with. I really do. And I feel blessed and I feel. I feel excited about going to work every day because the people I work with are terrific. And they're excellent at what they do and they care about what they do and they give it their all. And my responsibility as a managing partner is to make sure that I create the best possible environment for them to realise themselves in their profession. So, I did, however, discourage my daughter somewhat because I never talked that up and she's chosen a different path for herself where she'd like to go. And my son is, however, picking law as his career. So, one of them has, but that's not through any particular encouragement. That's because he's made his own decision about what he'd like to do in his life. So, yeah. Firstly, that is so special that you love going to work every day. That's what I aspire to, just genuinely loving your work. Just out of curiosity, your daughter's close to me in age and I'm also quite close with my father. How, from a father's perspective, how do you relate to your daughter? How do you give her advice that is genuine? So, a lot of, so we all do a walk almost every night. No matter what time it might be. So, my life does involve quite a lot of events and sometimes all with work and sometimes I get home quite late. So, I might get home at 8, 9, 10, 11 and my daughter's generally studying at that time and I'll say to her, "Lenny, let's go for our walk." So, we try and walk every night. And it's in those walks where quite often not much is said but either listening to one another or not even saying much. Other nights is a lot more to be said. We develop a particular understanding of one another and we try and ensure that those conversations involve a humorous part to it. In other words, make it fun. Find the funny side in whatever it is that we're doing and try and create some joy out of whatever the particular environment is. Not everything is fun and joyful, of course. But try and find it. And it is there. And so, those work, those walks most nights, some of them involve a lot of conversation and listening. It's hard to listen. It's hard to learn that that skill of listening to another person because that's natural for many of us, particularly myself, to want to talk. So, I have to hold myself back to try and listen more and ensure that we inject some humor into it. And it's the same with my son. I'll find a different environment where we can bond quite often that involves playing football together. So, we try and do that at least a few times a week or following the football for him that he's playing. And it's either the drive there or the drive back again. It's those periods that you can have that conversation and particular rubber dinner and also over holidays. So, pick activities during your holidays. So, we quite often go to Sydney. We stay in the North Shore. And we will do a walk every day for three to four hours. And that's a really good way to understand another person over four hours. And good and bad because the winding comes out, the complaining, you know, I fell over, it's too hot. That's fine. That's all part of it. Because that's part of life. That's part of life. You're going to find some parts of what you do. A little bit difficult, but on the whole you're having fun. On the whole you're having fun through it. You might stumble here and there. So, it's finding time is perhaps the short answer to connect at least once during the day. That's really good. I also really like what you said earlier about knowing that they're their own person and not just pushing your own experiences onto them. I think that's really good parenting when once your children become adults. Moving a little bit towards football and governance. So, I've been at soccer scene for a month. And if there's one thing that I've heard from Stays, from our partners, it's that sports government is highly political. As someone on the inside, do you believe football governance is more political than people admit or that people assume? It can be. It can be only because people are so passionate. I mean, football brings out the best in us and sometimes not the best in us. If I can put it that way. And it's also football is about winning. And you will do, some people will do everything they can to win. And within the rules or sometimes try and end the rules a little bit. And so, that impacts all aspects of that football environment, whether it's a selection of a team through to the foundation of the club and its governance. And also, it's a relationship with the governing bodies and also with government itself. So, in that environment, when people say it's political, I think what they're trying to say is that people are trying to find or they're trying to use whatever skill or relationship they have to get their club where they want it to be. So, they will describe that as political. I mean, politics is really part of our lives. Politics is the, is the politics defines the way people relate and behave within a particular environment. And football is just another one of those, which is at the extreme end of behaviour because of the passion and the rivalry that is involved in football. And so, that brings out the best in people, particularly within their football environments, sometimes brings out the worst in people in terms of how they see the rest of the football world. In the Greek community of Melbourne, one of the things that we've done in the last four or five years is to create the Hellenic football cup for men, women and our juniors, because there's almost 30 Hellenic clubs or clubs of Hellenic background in Melbourne. Many of them don't have a relationship with one another because of those intense rivalries. What we want to do is break down the fantasized orders that they have between one another because they're not real. Sure, you want to win on the pitch. But there are so many things that bring us together, that bring us together off the pitch, putting to one side a humanity, a background, a passion, our need for sponsors, all of the other things that form part of putting a football club work is what we all experience now and understand. What we've tried to through the Greek community of Melbourne is bring back the Hellenic cup and develop those relationships amongst the clubs and amongst all of the people that are involved. The moment you open the door, it's amazing who walks through and how similar we all see the world. And I've developed some beautiful relationships through that cup with people that have shown tremendous generosity and goodwill, particularly the clubs that are hosting the Hellenic cup and towards all of the other clubs that are participating, it's brought out the best in us. And it's been a lot of fun. I've made a lot of good friends out of football too. In fact, I don't think I've made a lot of enemies. I think I've just made a lot of good friends. That's my experience. As I sit, they might see it differently. That's how I sit. Any of those friends that you carry from when you were a player? Some, some, some. I do have relationships with some of my former players and their sons who have sought to join South Melbourne Hellenis in recent times. And that's quite interesting to observe and watch how the development of, you know, within their own family and the success they're having as footballers and continuing with that. Yeah, look, it's a team environment. Quite often when you talk to people about their experiences, young people in sport, those who participate in team environments will have friends for a particular period of time and sometimes for life or at the very worst, they'll remember it for life. Even if they don't have those friendships, they'll still remember that team environment. And if they see one another, it's a, you know, it's a high five or a handshake or what are you up to as opposed to those involved in individual sports like tennis, who go through life quite lonely and don't have those experiences, don't have that societal connection and don't have those friendships. So it football does unite and bring people together. And the Oceania Football, professional football league is the best example where it's uniting all of Oceania through football. You know, it's, I'm seeing a new world. I traveled to New Zealand to follow our team there. I hadn't been to New Zealand. I made amazing friends while I was there. I met the president of the Greek community in Auckland. He will become a lifelong friend. He's now coming to follow the matches in two weeks' time when we're playing against the number of teams here. He will come for those. I made a variety of other friends with the president of, I think it was, it's not Vanuayra, one of the other countries. I think the Solomon Islands of the variety of people. You make friends, you know, it is political. But if you look at it and throw an appropriate lens for me, it opens the door to a beautiful rich tapestry of different people that you can engage with, some of whom you can build lifelong friendships with. That's been my experience and I'm loving it. I love it. I love it. And I love watching kids find a purpose and a way in life. We, and I saw the video on Instagram yesterday of the South Melbourne players and coaches in Papua Nagini went to a school and did a school camp with those kids in Papua Nagini share drawing on the faces of those kids. Just lit up my heart. And, and the activities they did together and then hearing those kids chant "Hallos" in Papua Nagini, "Portmoresby" all together in Unison. That's so special. I was hilarious. It was so much fun. Those kids won't forget it. Our players and coaching staff won't forget it. They'll carry that experience for life. How good is that? How good is that? Who cares if you, sorry, I do care if we win. You know what? That's what you'll remember. You'll remember that more than scoring a goal from 40 metres. Exactly. Hopefully as a person. Yeah. Hopefully as a person, you'll remember your engagement more. I love that you turn the politics into something positive. You have a very positive outlook on it. But I do still need to grill you a little bit about the political stuff. As from being a player to a supporter to now the president, have you ever personally experienced politics getting the way of the lot of the game? It can, but we have found ways forward. We have found ways forward. You don't always get what you want in life. That's rule number one. And I'm quite vigorous in pursuing objectives and outcomes with government, with local government, and within the club itself. And I will push it as hard as I can to get what I consider to be a fair outcome. So I doubt quite often people enjoy the experience of me coming after a particular outcome. They probably, and they do say to casualty, take it back with step build. But if I believe in something and I think it's right, and I think it's for the good of the game, the good of the sport, and it's a good outcome for society, and I'll pursue it vigorously. But I don't always get it. And that's fine. Well, it's not fine, but I have to live with that. I have to live with the notion that I can fail. You know, that's part of life that I can fail. And we can fail as a club too in some things. But at the end of the day, you may in a particular instance, don't get your outcome. Holistically, that a good outcome is generally on the horizon and achievable. And that's been my experience. I have just met on the whole really decent people who give of themselves, who gain very little, who sit behind the scenes, because they're not on the field. They're working selflessly for the good of others, and for the good of the supporters. I've found those people to be incredible human beings. I met one last night, South Melbourne played, Oxeal, and friendly. And I'm standing there in Petticoca, so football director said, "Have you met this lady beside us?" She was in her mid 80s. And she required a walking, not a walking stick, but one of those pushing, those walking, you know. It's got the four legs, I'm not sure. And she'd come all the way from Ringwood to watch Box Hill and South Melbourne. I, public transport, Angla Salty background, was 9.30 at night. She was carrying with her a little book of photos of South Melbourne and countless players from the 80s and 90s of herself in the stand. Tells me she listens to three weeks while on a Sunday to hear what's going on in football. She's not Greek. She listens to the English part. New all of the players comes to the games, I then saw them walking down Canberu Road to a train station at 9.30. They're both in the mid 80s, her and a partner. And with their walking trolleys, to get on the train, to go back to Ringwood, having come to watch South Melbourne versus Box Hill. Now, if that doesn't bring out the best in you, I don't know what will. And I did say to her, "Ring us up, we'll organise free tickets at the next match for you and we'll look after you." So I said, "I need free tickets. I just come for the love of the game." And the love of the people around me. And I feel more alive and better about yourself when you meet people like that. And that's what football clubs are about. They're little societal ecosystems. That's really beautiful. Trust me, it was. She was the sweetest person I've met in a long time. And I'm the richer for meeting her. And she told me about all the trips she did following South Melbourne Hellers. Like Interstate and the trophies they won and the people she met. She seemed perfectly happy. She was happy. That level of dedication and loyalty to a club cannot be taught. No. And that's what football is about. It's that passion. So can't be taught and you can't manufacture it. And I think that's been part of the difficulties the A-League has experienced in their inability and their lack of understanding that football is just not about a franchise and about money. But it requires a community understanding and history and a lived experience which the Australian Championship threw the other tier. I won't call it the second tier. It's the other tier because those clubs are worthy to be at the top level of football in this country. Bring to football. It's those clubs, South Melbourne, Hydeburg, Maconie, Arbia, Nights, Preston. They bring society with them to each of their matches. And this has been the unfortunate part of a football fabric and ecosystem in our country that we've stifled their ambition and their ability to realise their dreams and the lock the leg up which does it reflect society. Because society is not about you creating one law firm for all of Australia that can just service everyone's needs. There are different courses for different horses for different courses. You can't have everyone forcing everyone to go to one law firm. There are a thousand law firms and it's that competition amongst the law firms I'm using law as one example that drives a better outcome for the customer. Now locking up the A-league means we're forced into a particular paradigm without the opportunity of watching fluidity and movement and competition and allowing others to dream. There's bad dreams. That's what we all wake up within the morning. Each of us, when we wake up in the morning, wake up with a particular dream. You may not realise that you've got a dream because you're too busy trying to execute whatever it is you want to do. But there's a dream in you about what you want to do. Now if that dream is taken away from you, well what have we got? Consciously and subconsciously. And that's been the big failure of football in this country. I hope it's fixed. We will agitate for it to be fixed not because for the sake of South Melbourne. It's for the sake of every club in this country. They all deserve every single club in this country. Deserves to aspire to dream and to bring out the best in themselves and to progress. You can't stop that in humanity. I was wanting to ask you actually something along those lines. So locking up the A league, not allowing other leagues to dream. You see that as one of the issues. Last night at the Bentley Greens launch night, we heard from James Hurt as a guest speaker. And someone asked him what he believes is holding back football as in soccer, as the world's most popular sport and the most played sport here. From reaching the level of popularity and market ability that the AFL has in Australia. He said that even though the coaching at a junior level is so good and in a lot of ways superior, he said that as players move past the junior level, the pathway isn't clear enough. Do you agree with this? Yes, spot on. And it's exactly what we just spoke about. It isn't clear because we've shut the gates on clubs dreaming, aspiring, and wanting to do better and bring out the best in themselves. And bring out the best in the competition. So he's spot on James as a very wise person. He's kids play football at a high level. I remember his children from South Melbourne, Halas. I were there. I remember James from there. I remember him participating in a parents match against kids. And one thing I observed about James in that match was his commitment to the team during that match. I didn't seem doing anything fancy. Get the ball past it. He was looking to engage and bring others into the game. So that example, that metaphor is what football, the football ecosystem needs in his country. That is, how can we bring everyone into the game? How can you make all of us participants in the global game? Well, open the doors. That's the first way, isn't it? Allow us in. That's the first way. So the doors, the A league, the administrators of the A league, those clubs need to realise that they are not the custodians of football in this country. People are the football ecosystem of the custodians. Not a select group of individuals who think they own football in this country. They do not. And it will be ultimately the demise of those clubs because you can't hold back the people. Yeah. Power to the people. How do you see tangible steps into opening up is that something that you've thought about to make it more open and cohesive? Because I think how fractured it is seems like a big issue. I think football Australia is making some giant steps. I think football Victoria doing some excellent work in that regard. Creating the Australian Championship has opened those doors, allowed people to imagine themselves in a different environment, to bring out the best in themselves to compete. Because we saw within with the Australian Championships every club went another level in terms of player engagement, fan engagement, creating a better experience, match the experience for their supporters. Everything went up because we introduced competition again. So football Australia, full credit to Anter, full credit to Heather, football Victoria, well done to the board there, to the chair, to the CEO, Beryl. They're doing an excellent job. I'm optimistic about the future. We spoke about politics. Politics was present. Was present when South Melbourne made its bid for its A league back eight years ago. Politics was present to exclude South Melbourne for winning a winning a birth into the A league back then. So I will go back to that regional question and I will answer it. Yes, it does rear its ugly head in particular circumstances. Yes, it does. And it denied us the opportunity to compete when I thought we had personally a very compelling case to be admitted into the A league eight years ago. And I think politics played a role in us not being selected. And I've been told that anyway from some senior people. I've heard a bit about that as well. So just mention I'm just for accuracy. I'll call it the national second tier, even though you call it the other tier. The Australian Championship, that's what we call Australian Championship. So firstly, congratulations for South Melbourne winning that the inaugural championship. From the outside, the national second tier feels hard to fully understand. Not just what it is, but what it's meant to fix. How do you see it? And do you think it's fixing what it's set out to? So it's. It works in a number of different levels. The first one is it's bringing us together in a national perspective. So it's it's engaging our clubs within the state teams. That's the first thing. Second thing, it's bringing back those rivalries that did exist decades ago, back into the football framework. You know, the arpears, the machonies, the Haudenosa, the Adelaide out of Brisbane. Thirdly, it fourth clubs through competition to invest in football, invest in players, invest in match-thake experiences. I mean, some of the clubs spent a lot of money to create better match-thake experiences for their supporters. And our supporter turnout increased by 400 to 600%. Now that's a lot in one season. That is a lot. And some of those clubs had similar outcomes where their fan engagement increased significantly in the season itself. So, and also the quality of the football was very watchable. Now, I don't believe the gap between the MPL and the A-League is as significant as many people may assume. We saw Haudenosa, make its way to the final. Lose. just lose in that final. We're a little bit unlucky not to progress into the Asian Champions League. They beat, and I think three A-League clubs to get to that final. The gap is quite small. It's time to open up and open the gates to a football pyramid of the football pyramid in this country. And I think the Australian Championship is the start of that outcome. And I think it was the success. So congratulations to Anter. Congratulations to Heather, the CEO, and Anter, the chairman of football Australia. And also to the various federations around the country who supported it. And speaking to South Melbourne specifically, there a foundation club in the new competition. How does this speak to the setbacks that the club had from not being involved in the A-League when the NSL disbanded? Well, it's given us a new. it's a breath of fresh air and a new lease in life. And it's allowed us to engage with our supporters, to bring back people who hadn't been to games for 10, 15, 20 years, to reconnect. Because that's what football does. So as you walk through the ground, you're bumping into people. You're giving a hug, a high five, having a word with people that you haven't seen for such a long period of time. That's what it's done for us. It's brought back that passion, which you can't bottle, you can't pay, and you can't buy. And that's what the Australian Championship has done. I mean, and then to watch our players, I've fallen at a much higher level within themselves. So they realised they had another level, but they could play at another level when the competition demanded it. So brought out the best in everyone. How good is that? How good is that? So there were no losers in it in the Australian Championship. We may have won, but I don't believe there were any losers, because I think next season will be even better and brighter. Giving people belief in themselves is one of the most powerful things in sport. Part of the controversy surrounding the National Second Tier is how it affects the MPL club's ability to balance both seasons. Not just the players, but also the volunteers who are trying to make it work behind the scenes. As someone in a governance position, how do you think this can be managed for long-term sustainability? Well, there's not that many games as it currently stands in that tier of competition. So you play, I think it was four or six matches leading up to the finals. So it's not imposing a significant burden within the club itself. It might only get four home games, or they're about, it's manageable. We can do it. And it's exciting. And we want more of it. We don't play enough football in this country. The Aaligh is 26 matches a year. That's half a season in Europe. They're playing 50 games. So we're, South Melbourne will play close to 60 games this season. Through the OFC, the OSEAN and professional football league, through the Australian Cup, the OLD FA Cup, the Dockety Cup, the MPL, and any Australian Championship. Bring it on. That's what we want. We love it. That's what we're here to do. We're a football club. We shouldn't go to sleep. Do you feel like South Melbourne has the capacity to do both pretty easily? All clubs do. You're given the opportunity. You watch them lift themselves up. Give them the chance. You watch them do it. I think they can. They want to. And it's exciting. It really is. It's exciting. It was a great time to be in football. I was lucky. I was lucky to experience it. I regard myself as lucky to experience that. How do you see it evolving towards a full league or even a promotion system someday? I'm seeing it evolving into a full league. I see that within a few years time. Providing all things remain equal and the clubs continue to invest. I'm confident that football, Australia will enable clubs to realise those ambitions in participating in a full tier competition. And then what I imagine will happen is that the A league will need to allow promotion into a league, maybe crowding an A1 and an A2 league without relegating any of the particular A-league clubs, but allowing that competition to continue to increase in numbers, which is what it needs. At any point in time there's three clubs in the A league that are in financial difficulty. How many clubs in our central coast, for example, is now in some form of administration. We're seeing that time and time again. Create that competition. Create those opportunities. Expand the A league through this additional tier. And then the second tier, the additional tier and have an A1, A2 and how much fun will that be? How much fun? It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm sure it would be. I'm looking forward to it. I hope I'm around. They've been booted near out of the club by then. I doubt they would. You never know. So, I'd like to start to your role as president of South Melbourne and the president of the Greek diaspora in Melbourne. What is your own personal history with the two since they go hand in hand? And obviously this could go way back. You would have such an amazing story. Some of the presidents of the Greek community of Melbourne, Pepper Service, Marmaras, just to name two, have been presidents of the Greek community of Melbourne and Victoria, the organisation that I also am president of. So, there's been a strong connection between the club itself and also the Greek community of Melbourne. So football was an opportunity for engagement for migrants in this country in the 50s to 60s, 70s in the 80s. And so it was a community experience, which is what the organisation of the Greek community in Melbourne is. It's part of that community experience and they intersect. And they offer different things at different times in people's lives. And we need that. We need that variety. And so that intersection has existed historically, continues to exist. And so this is the Greek community in Melbourne's founded in 1897. So it's pre-Federation. It's before Australia became a country and has played an important role in a number of, in a development of this country, whether it's through multiculturalism, immigration policies, cultural activity, university courses, and giving people a sense of place and home. And that's what football clubs are too. That's what the Greek community of Melbourne is. It creates a sense of home and place for you. And where you feel you belong. So all of us have got a place quite often. Those places should intersect and do so in a collegiate and harmonious way. And we have as a community continue to do that. Now being Greek, of course, they, you know, we do have the ability to create discord and to dissect. And we've created 30 Hellenic clubs in Melbourne, when other community groups don't have 30 clubs. But that's okay. Our job now is to understand our history and find ways where we can support one another. For example, I'm a sponsor at about five different clubs. I may be involved at South Melbourne, but I sponsor another five other clubs because I believe in what they do and what they offer and how they engage, particularly with the young people. And how important they are for society and its cohesion. Social cohesion is the most important thing for us. Moving forward, our ability to understand the humanity in one another and football clubs do that community groups do that. The intersection of the Greek community and football is very important, very central to the story in the mid 90s. A lot of clubs try to soften or shift their ethnic identity to appeal to a broader Australian audience, largely for commercial reasons. And that strategy didn't really take hold. Now we're seeing a shift back, particularly at South Melbourne, an example is, how is reappearing on merchandise? What do you think's changed? We're an Australian club. First and foremost, let's be clear about that. And we do have, however, a history. And it's a history that gives meaning and purpose to the club. Let's not deny that. Let's make sure that history is conveyed in a way which promotes social cohesion, which doesn't exclude others. We're not inundated with Greek players in the club. All Greek coaches administrators, yes, somewhat. In the coaching and the playing perspective, it fits in within the broader multicultural framework of this country and with players from every background. So we are a multicultural club, where a club that represents all of Victoria and Melbourne, but has a particular history which we should feel proud about. We should be proud about it. But that's, it's historical. There's a relevance, but that's all it is. First and foremost. So let's not deny our origin and our history. Imagine telling someone, you know, you can't mention, you know, your village within our country. You're not allowed to speak your language. If we denied someone, the opportunity to express themselves and their story. I think that's that that would be a very aggressive step for society, not allowing people to tell their story. That's what we're doing now. We're telling a story. You know, we're all learning from this story. I'm learning as I go, I'm learning and I'm learning from others continuously and daily. And acknowledging others. With your work that you mentioned before with the multicultural commission as well. Touching back on that, that what happened in the mid 90s, moving away from ethnic identities. There's an element of social exclusion to that story. And so that's what I was talking about. I was talking about racism, particularly in that era. Did you ever experience that firsthand or notice that during that time as a younger person or, you know, breaking into. I experienced that at work in a quite visible way, actually. And so the racism did exist. I'd like to believe we're better at it now and we understand one another more deeply and are not intimidated by the difference in others. So that racism did exist. I think the demise of the National Soccer League was racist in its execution. And to deny those clubs, the opportunity to continue to participate solely because of their historical background, particularly when those clubs are what football was built on. So, you know, you've, it's like saying to your parents who have worked all of their lives to build a house and as they get older, you throw them out of the house and say, no, no, no, hang on, you're quite old and you're a little bit weak at the moment. This is a downward, you know, you're approaching the end of this part of your existence on this planet. I'm just going to take the house. How to go and you send them where you abandon your parents where where do you send them into the street to fail to die. And that's what happened to all those clubs. And I hate to tell them the orchestrators of those of that particular approach towards football didn't achieve their outcome. The clubs didn't fail. They're still around and we're seeing them all competing now in the Australian Championship. So, you know, I'd like to think that as time goes, we become more civilised. This is the whole notion of civilisation. The whole notion of civilisation is you get better over time. You get better at the standing, you're placing this world over time. And that we're more civilised now and can make better decisions now than we did back then, which might have been might have been seen through the prism of a particular view of Australia and what Australia is. So, yes, racism did exist. That's racism still exists. Absolutely. It still exists. It's our job to combat it everywhere and every time we see it and to call it out. And I'm calling it out. I'm calling it after back then. And I'm calling it after what I experienced as a young lawyer and as a young professional. I saw it. It impacted me. It didn't make me, I took the perspective that I want to become a better person for it so that this doesn't happen to someone else. So that someone else doesn't experience it. So, one of my passions is working with young people and giving them the best opportunity to excel in whatever environment it is. Give them the opportunity to read and respect. Don't treat anyone poorly. There is no need for that. Make them feel good about themselves. Make them feel good about the place they're in and allow them to flourish. That's my passion. That's my passion. I think that they've been able to sustain football despite all of those challenges, especially within the Greek community really shows their grit. The Greek diasporian Melbourne is the largest, sorry, in Victoria is the largest one globally. I spent a lot of my growing up years until recently in Tempestor. So I'm very familiar with the Greek community and as an outsider, I love the Greek community. But as an outsider, sometimes I say it's the equivalent of if you don't barrack for calling wood and you're looking at calling wood supporters, that's what it feels like to be on the outside of the Greek community looking in. No, no, no, no, no, no, in the best way. No, no, no, no, no, they're not in the league because we don't want to exclude people. No, no, no, I don't mean in that sense, but only because of perhaps the is it the pride? No, I honestly, I mean that lightly just because they can be so obnoxiously proud. Sometimes I love it. I love it. How does it feel to be the president of such a big and proud community? I've never seen it that way because the way I've just seen myself as a small cog in this very large wheel. So it's interesting for you to say that as an outsider and I'm going to take that on board and I'm going to be more mindful. I've learned a little bit today through this through this podcast, more mindful for people who are outside our community about making sure that we're open. I don't want you to take that the wrong way. It's important point because quite often when you're in something, you don't see the experience of those of on the outside who are looking at what it is you're doing and whether they feel they can be accommodated or they can be welcomed or they can feel comfortable in that particular environment. Only because you're so comfortable in that environment, you think everyone's comfortable in that environment, no matter who they are. So that's a good learning for me to see that how we can sometimes portray ourselves as overly confident or use your expression obnoxious about our heritage in a way that doesn't make the other person feel included. Good learning, good observation, I will be better at making sure that we are even more inclusive going forward but Greeks are we're tribal. We are a bit tribal. I just want to clarify, I truly do not mean that. I go living in temples, though, because I'm also orthodox, but I'm not Greek. I used to go to Hattalambos church and they make me feel so welcome. I have so many Greek friends. I think it's more at school and you have the Greeks and this and that, especially in our area because it's such a big community, it's very proud, but it's not in a bad way at all. Trust me, as someone of Greek background in this country, that coming together in a particular group is a form of protection rather than pride too. So they're protecting themselves from what they consider might be the outside world, which may not be as accommodating to them as they think it could be. So it's almost working in both ways. So what you're seeing, what you're seeing is, oh my god, look at them. They're behaving in a particular way. They move as a block. It's hard to get in while people inside that particular environment, let's use Greeks as the example, I'm probably thinking we better stick together because everyone's against us and this is the only way forward for us. And we better work in a particular collegiate way. So both sides to that equation or to that particular environment are expressing their own level of interest, maybe a little bit of insecurity and being inquisitive. They're both inquisitive, but that that not only express it. So the more we open the better, I can definitely see the other side of the coin with that. Going back quite a few questions ago, you said something about being very good at achieving an objective for a club. We just recently actually yesterday published a published an opinion piece based off of survey results that we got from soccer scene and it was the survey was about relationships between councils and clubs. One of the questions that we asked, which I think if I'm right, was around 75% of football stakeholders responded saying that they think that the communication between councils and clubs or clubs trying to reach out to councils is ineffective and inconsistent. What advice would you give to clubs or people representing clubs and leading clubs to achieve objectives in the sense of getting better facilities and how would you. Engagement, invite them to your events, invite them to your club presentations, invite the Councillors to matches, organise lunches, have them follow a particular football program, a youth development program, morning training session. Through that process, they will find that doors will open. We're in the City of Port Phillip and we have an excellent relationship with the council and the local mayor whose Alex Maken is doing incredible work for our club and that's through engagement. But it's through, trust is built over time. So we, you can't expect the council to do things for you or any stakeholder to do things for you on the one engagement. You need to develop trust over a period of time and it's what we described and talked about before a back grip and perseverance. Stick out, keep going back, keep going back, keep going back and the more you engage, the more you will find that the councils will then and the council was who were there to serve. Their constituents will try and find a way and a solution for you because probably they're being locked back because they don't know much about you. They don't know much about you, but they know about other codes who have a more visible presence through the media. Football just doesn't have that presence, does that unfortunately in this country? We don't see it on television. I mean, the Australian professional league is not covered by any of the mainstream media in this country at all. The Australian Championship wasn't covered basically at all. How is that? I mean, you'll have cricket covered, state cricket covered or sorts of other sports covered, but we can't get that, we can't get that coverage. So there's a little bit of, particularly from a council perspective, like of awareness about what people are doing and how successful they are at what they're doing because most clubs are really successful at it. So engage. Speaking about coverage, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't it that the championship final was at Sunday, 1pm or something like that? I might be wrong. Something like that. Yes. How is BS? Yeah. How do we change that? How do we overcome the issue of media coverage? Because I, from what I can gather that is one of the biggest issues because not everyone can get out to watching a game. They can't see their local heroes on screen like they would with the EPR or other leads. So I should correct what I said previously. SBS, SBS did provide coverage, but the other mainstream organisations, media organisations didn't succusend it. Of course. And congratulations to Stase and the work that you do. This is terrific, terrific engagement. I think SBS did a lot of learning and football Australia had a lot of learnings out of that particular competition. I think it will change going forward into the next championship in terms of what times matches are programmed. We will see a change there because they were quite surprised by the engagement on TV and otherwise. And I guess looking to the future to sort of move towards the end of the podcast or the end of the segment. In your role as president at South Melbourne and also all of your other roles as well. What do you wish to leave behind and equip people with going forward? What is your main goal to enhance and support individuals, businesses, industries in within the football ecosystem? The journey is more important than the outcome and that we should encourage people to feel good about the particularly journey that daily journey they're involved in. The outcome, we will do our best to get there, but we don't always get there. You know, we don't always win that big trophy or that shiny medal. Enjoy the journey, do the best you can while you're at it. Create the best possible environment for all participants in the course of that journey. Allow them to feel whether it's women, men or children engaged and supported in that journey. And hopefully they've got an experience that they will continue with. Even when they're not playing at the top levels, back in the club either through an administrator, supporter or volunteer. You know, because you want that full circle to take place in someone's life and to feel like they've got a home. Let's create that home for people to come back to and intersect and in time and their life and to feel welcome. That's what we all want. We all want some, we all want a home to go to. That's what football is about. Beautiful. Well, in that case, thank you so much for your time. I've learned a lot from this. You articulate so well and you have a wealth of knowledge. And I hope that stays and I get the opportunity to work with you again in the future. And I'm sure this was very insightful for the listeners as well. It was insightful for me. It was insightful to hear your questions and the way you put them and your own observations and the learnings I've had from this particular podcast as well. So I thank you for the opportunity. [Music]