Episode 1: Existential Psychotherapy, Inner Consent and Phenomenology

[Music] We are the extensionists. [Music] Four existential psychotherapists invite you to join us in a dialogue about what it means to live an existential life. [Music] Your hosts are... Xavier Williams, therapist in Vancouver Canada. Janelle Dresner, therapist in Edmonton Canada. Chelsea Stanner, therapist in South Surrey Canada. And Mihail Alonano, therapist in Vancouver Canada. [Music] Welcome to our podcast, the existentialist. In today's episode, we are going to talk with you about what existential psychotherapy is and how easy to be an existential psychotherapist. And we'll start by telling you a bit about ourselves. Why introducing ourselves and telling you what brought us together to do this podcast and to have this dialogue with each other on various topics related to existential psychotherapy. So I will invite my colleagues to maybe say their name and a little bit about themselves. And what do you hope to accomplish through this dialogue? My name is Xavier. You'll hear me refer to a Zav, though, just in case, just to orient you. What do I want to achieve by this podcast? Really to try and chair existential thought and particularly existential therapeutic thought with the wider world, with the average person in the street, to kind of deconstruct a demystified and really make it applicable to everyday life situations, not just when people are struggling with mental health challenges or disorders or so that it can be helpful. And I just like talking about existentialism a lot. Yeah, and for me, I guess I can relate to what you said. I mean, I enjoy dialogue with colleagues and friends about existential psychotherapy, given our kind of shared background in this. And we're going to talk a little bit more about that a bit later. So even through this dialogue, I hope that some of the existential concepts that usually people find a bit too abstract for practical application, that this concept may become more alive and more practical. And so my hope is that through this podcast, we can reach an audience of ranging from people leaving their lives to psychotherapists, wanting to try some of the existential therapy, strategies, attitudes, and so on. And it's also really good and really enjoyable to do this together with the three of you. For me, the reason that I'd like to be a part of this podcast on one hand is to just enjoy really fantastic conversation with you guys, and I've gotten to know through my own training and existential therapy and through the master's program with some of you as well. But I'm also amazed at in doing some of the existential trainings or at least the introduction seminars, how many people remark, "Wow, I can't believe we can talk this deeply, and this is so incredible and fulfilling, and I really am enjoying this, and I wish I could just have these types of conversations with other people in my life." So I'm always taken aback by how well received this type of dialogue is and how needed it is. So I'd like to be a part of being able to bring it to more people and to engage beyond the scope of just our community. And my name is Chelsea, and what kind of interested me in doing this podcast was similarly to you, Janelle, was to be able to have fun and light-hearted, but also deep and meaningful conversations around topics that are existentially oriented that have been really life-changing for me. And I think, like you said, as well, with the training, so much of it has been very transformative in kind of opening up a new way of being that I hadn't been really that attuned to before this. And so I'm looking to really be able to share that with others in a practical way. I also hope to, on more of like a professional level, have some of my colleagues understand kind of what it is that I do as an existential therapist and what that means. And then also for clients to understand as well, the benefits of existential therapy and what it could do for their life or the benefits of seeing an existential therapist. Because I think, like Zav said, there's a lot that is kind of mysterious or maybe philosophical or not well understood. But I think it's a really, really beautiful method that can be very meaningful in changing a lot of different things for people. So that's kind of my hope in being part of this together. Yeah, so given that we kind of shared a bit about ourselves and what brought us together to this podcast, maybe it's a good moment to talk about what existential therapy is. And this is a daunting task in many ways and yet a very simple, simple one. It's a very daunting because as kind of the most recent definition of existential therapy shows us it takes a lot of time, a long time and a lot of effort for existential psychotherapies to agree on what is existential psychotherapy. On the other hand, it's a deceptively simple to talk about what existential therapy is about because it's about how we live as human beings. What it means to exist, to be here and now living our lives as human beings. It's about who we are, our human condition, our shared human condition, and what it means to exist. And etymologically speaking, the term existence means to stand out to rise above. It's coming from Latin X-ister, meaning that we are really standing up and rise above the conditions of our existence, not to ignore them or to pretend that they are not there, but actually to engage with them and to respond to them and to find the best life that we can live for each of us in the midst of these conditions and limitations. And existential therapy is all about being present in the here and now with ourselves and with our clients and with everyone else in our lives, hopefully, and to examine our lived experiences. And lived experiences means basically whatever we experience, we live, we think about in a certain moment, to slow down, to attend, to pay attention to what is going on with us, and then to find our position towards what's going on with us and to give our free response while assuming responsibility for our choices. And given these main characteristics that, again, don't do justice to everything that existential psychotherapy is, I wonder if we can talk about what brought each of us to be attracted to existential thought, to existential psychotherapy. Why did we choose to pursue training in existential psychotherapy rather than in another form of therapy or in all therapy at all doing a completely different career? I think I know how I came to existential therapy, existential analysis. It was a day in one of my master's courses in which I was challenged to pick my theory of psychotherapy, which was very difficult to do considering I hadn't at that point really learned about any of them. So making a decision without information is hard. But I was lucky enough to be prescribed a book called "Love's Executioner" by an existential psychiatrist in the U.S. called "Ovenialum", he's quite famous. And I remember reading basically a council of his sessions with some of his clients, and simply that it resonated with me. I kind of said, "Well, this is the kind of therapist I want to be." And then, of course, it chimed in with all the kind of philosophy that I'd read in my undergrad, and even in my own view of the world and particularly dealing with ideas of death and the limitations of life and acceptance and freedom. And it was really the resonance of, "Okay, I think I've found my home. I might know where I'm going." Of course, that also required further depth and training. And I was lucky enough to find an existential analysis and a training program which ended up confirming it all. For me, entering into existential psychotherapy, there was about two phases. As I reflected on it, I realized that there was this deep resonance with existential psychotherapy, even before I really knew of its existence. And this stemmed from a very form and an experience of my life. My dad died when I was nearing 14. And in our last conversation together, he had said that the last piece of advice that I'm going to give you is, always be not the victim, choose your way. And that piece of advice completely shaped the way that I lived my life. That I could see myself as somebody who actually authored my actions. I could actually choose a different attitude. And even to this day, I do wonder if he had read Victor Frankel's man search for meaning, and I'm never going to know that. But I'm so appreciative that he gave me that piece of advice. And so I'd carried that with me as this 14-year-old until I got to grad school. And then here we are in grad school, very similar to that story. And we have to pick a theory, and I get to think it was chapter three if I can remember this theory on existential psychotherapy. I think I read the first paragraph, and it used words like responsibility, freedom, agency, authenticity. And I was like, yep, that's it for me. And then very fortunately for me, Mahalo is my prof at the time. There were these seminars going on for training and existential psychotherapy. And so she's like, you should come. You would like it. I was like, okay. So I went having no idea that it was like a few years long. I had no clue. I went to the training, and I never looked back. It was one of the best decisions that I ever made. And every month for the training, the themes would just resonate so deeply. And so I've stayed since 2015. And for me, I found existentialism originally in my undergrad as more of a philosophy that I was drawn to. But then later in my master's, similarly to you, Janelle, in having to pick a theory to choose for how I would like to counsel clients as my kind of main orientation. I also continued to read up on existential psychotherapy and introduced myself to it there. And it started to resonate for me more at the surface level. And then from there in my cohort, and actually more so, the cohorts kind of above me in my master's training, I noticed a few individuals who were part of the existential analysis training. And just kind of the depth that they had, the ability for case conceptualization, how they saw kind of their clients' sufferings when they would bring cases to discuss. And I was really intrigued and impressed. And so that kind of also made me more interested. And then Mahala, who was also my instructor in the master's training as well, she invited me out to a training. And so I began my training in existential analysis in 2017. And really from day one, it's just felt more and more and more of a homecoming each time I engage with the material and continue my own training. It really just resonates on the deeper and deeper level. And so that's what drew me in. And that's how I counsel clients. It's my primary method that I use. I like how you said that, though, the way that some of your colleagues would be suffering. I definitely resonate with the uniqueness of this approach and how suffering is talked about, as looked at and as held, is quite unique. So hopefully we'll be able to shed some light on that and dive into that deeper. Yeah. And I relate to what you said, Chelsea, about existentialism and existential thought, entering my lives through more through philosophy. And that happened to me when I was still in Romania in doing my undergrad studies. And also I was enrolled at university in the psychology department. I used to skip classes in psychology to go to the philosophy department classes. Because I found it, yes, you know that thing. It's because I found those classes much more interesting, interesting that experimental psych. These were the first two years of psychology fall of experiments with cockroaches and mice and stuff like that. And I wasn't particularly attracted to those. At the same time with this, there was a course on high degree at University of Bucharest in the philosophy department. And so I audited that class, that course, that lasted for about two years, if not more. And so this is when I think I, this was my first encounter with existential thought and existential philosophy. And I'm not sure how much I chose it or how much it chose me. And that's not to, you know, to give away my freedom. But it felt like it was a mutual choice, you know, in a way. So that was, this is where it started. And then I came to Canada in 2005. And in about a year after or less, even after I was here and redoing my master's degree in counseling psychology at UBC. I got an email through the, through UBC listserv about training in existential analysis, which was introduced as a form of existential psychotherapy. And I guess probably the word "hidegger", the name "hidegger" was in there somewhere. So I was like, oh, this is intriguing. And then I, I became part of the first training cohort in Canada in existential analysis. And since then, I kept going. And I finished my own training. Then I started teaching the training in Canada. And it, for me, it felt like a home in a very, in a very unique way, so to speak. Because my involvement with existential analysis really overlaps almost completely with my staying in Canada. So it became a sort of home identity here in Canada. And a bridge to my roots, my European roots. And my first love for existential philosophy that I experienced in Romania. And yeah, I'm, it feels like a very fortunate, providential event in my life that I encounter existential analysis. And I became part of this community. That is really cool that there was an opportunity to join the training that it had begun just around the time that you were here and that you could be a part of it. Yeah, it's again, for me, it feels providential in some ways. And it's a bit ironic that I came here, like in a completely different culture, to kind of deepen some of the European ways of being in many ways. I think it's providential for, I'm still, I'm still thinking about it. Sorry, I think it's providential for Janelle and I as well that you responded to that list serve. Because I don't know if we would be here in this training, had it not been for you signing up and joining originally in that first cohort. Hang on, we can't possibly be saying that it's all fake. Oh, no, no. Now we are getting into at the core of it. Indeed. Like, what do you think about faith? Well, this is a great question. I would suggest that they don't. And by that I mean, by that I mean is perhaps fate is the conditions of existence. Those things that are, I think anybody believes in faith believes on that it is. But that is an existentialist within that within those conditions. I have agency. I am able to respond. I'm able to have an attitude to position, make my own decisions. And then suffer the consequences or enjoy them. We do have what comes first. Well, then I'm very thankful that Mahala made her choice to respond to the list serve. Which also opened up the opportunity for me to respond as well. Yeah, the world presented an opportunity chose it. I mean, I do reflect on how free my choice was. Of course, I made the choice. It was free. But I really didn't know what I was getting into. And yet, the similar, I think Mahala said that. Like, it had chosen me. It was very, it was a very mutual attraction. And that I feel I couldn't say no to. And I wondered about that. I think when something is so right and resonates so deeply. I do question, are we free because it just gripped me. And I wouldn't want to say no. I also don't know if I could have said no. Yeah, this is a very good point. I feel the same that faithful applies not so much about. Something is predetermined and it has to go in a certain way. But is that, yeah, synchronicity that coming together. That it's so perfectly aligned or it feels so perfectly aligned. It almost brings freedom and necessity together. Like, it cannot be another way. And yet, I'm fully free in it. And I was absolutely free to respond or not to that email. And I was actually thinking a lot about that. Because it wasn't easy to pursue a new training program while I just arrived in a new country and trying to establish, you know, my life here. So I could have very easily not respond. Or I could have easily stopped with my own training and not continue. But there are many moments when it felt like I cannot not continue. But it wasn't out of lack of freedom or being forced to a course. It was just that unique, faithful, you know, meeting of freedom and necessity. I love how you say that, freedom and necessity. And where those two meet, I find myself and how do I respond to both of these. It's a very interesting image in my mind. Thank you for that. Thank you. So I wonder if it's since we keep talking about how much we love our training and existential analysis. It's a good idea to tell our listeners a bit more about what is existential analysis. And then we can of course have a dialogue about it. So existential analysis is one of the several schools of existential psychotherapy that currently exists. So I will mention some of the other schools, like there is a School of Design Analysis. And then a School of Existential Phenomenological Therapy in Great Britain, in London, the British School of Existential Analysis. And then there is in the states the existential humanistic or existential integrative psychotherapy. And so existential analysis is originated in Vienna. And its roots are in Victor Frankl's Logotherapy. And Victor Frankl is a psychiatrist in Vienna. And he developed Logotherapy first in around 1929. And Logotherapy is a form of psychotherapy that deals with problems of meaning. I mean people who are disconnected from their meaning in life or have lost their meaning in life because of usually a crisis or loss of tragedy that happens to them. Then for these people, Logotherapy is still the therapy of choice even today. And some people talk about meaning based therapies, which is very similar to Logotherapy. And so in 1983, Alfred Langle, who was one of Victor Frankl's students and friend, started developing a broader form of existential therapy called existential analysis, which maintained or incorporated Logotherapy as part of it. And then developed a more comprehensive psychotherapeutic approach with specific treatment methods for different psychological disorders. So maybe I will offer a definition of EA, by the way, existential analysis, we refer to it shortly as EA. And then based on this definition, we made together kind of unpack it because as you notice, it's probably not the most user-friendly definition. EA, like practically speaking, means to live with inner consent, meaning to give our yes to how we live our life and to everything that we are doing in our everyday life. It could be even from very little actions like being here in this podcast to much more significant life decisions. Also, it's EA's person-centered therapy that helps people live with freedom and responsibility. It's helping them achieve a free experiencing of their emotions, thoughts, inner life, so that they can make authentic decisions and live in a personally responsible way towards themselves, towards life and towards others. So this is how existential analysis is defined. So I wonder if we would like to maybe through dialogue unpack a bit this. And even tell our listeners how each of these points of this definition, how are they alive for us or how do we live them in our life, in our work as psychotherapists? Thank you for that description, and that was wonderful. Well, if we break it down, okay, so we started with it's, I think you mentioned inner consent in our yes. Mm-hmm, yes. Yeah, okay, good. That's a significant component of it. I remember something really shifted for me when we talked about how much easier it is to say no than it is to say yes. That yes reveals more of ourselves. And so then when we look at our lives, the things that we say yes to really start to reflect back on who we are. And all of a sudden we become responsible to that. That's that's the result. And so I think inner consent really does form the basis of this therapy. What is it that we say yes to, where can we find ourselves in our decisions? What ways do I show up? And it's pretty amazing with my clients how much I use the word consent. What do you say? What do you say yes to? What do you consent to? And that does shift, that can't spring about a shift in attitude. Oh, this is actually something that I can choose and decide what I think about it, what I feel about it, what I want to do with it. Yes, to be an active participant in one's own life rather than kind of life just happening to you passively. Totally. Yeah, a very practical example that I use almost all the time with every single client about inner consent is going to be invited to a party. On a set sound and evening where you really don't want to and you know straight away as soon as you get the invitation, you get this feeling inside of you going, oh, not really. But you kind of say yes because this is what we do. And then you go and even if you have a good time, some part of you really wanted to be at home and all the next day you regret because maybe you had a bit too much fun and you stayed out a bit too late. And so that that inner consent for me was very much being allowing myself to say what I actually felt, what I actually wanted. And then also to be responsible for that and that knowing that that might have an impact on whoever's inviting me and dealing with that. So it's not so much these grand, not necessarily, I mean, these grand kind of oh my gosh, what do I consent to in my life? It's as simple as do I go left or right to party or not to party. Yeah, or or of course to be or not to be. That's very funny. I far prefer the suggestion or the question that two existentists were an existentialist and a stoic, I think, on the east coast of the US wrote about and they, the title of the article was essentially choose coffee or choose death. Because if you were going to decide to live, you may as well have a coffee. I can't really stand by that. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, absolutely, especially especially in the mornings. Oh, it's a necessity. Yeah, for sure. It is very close to to be able to make me very aware that I haven't had my coffee today. Oh, no, where are your priorities, Chelsea? First one. Oh, okay. Yeah. But thank you for that example. Do I consent to going to a party because you're right. There's some very big decisions that require consent, but every little decision that we make does as well. And how sometimes how not great it feels to go when you really didn't want to when there wasn't consent. Absolutely. And I'd maybe encourage any listeners to try it on a very minor thing at first and see how it feels to do it. Like really feel that thing because we talked about in the definition talks about this kind of living an emotionally free life. And at least in my understanding, my conception of it that I've internalized is that when we make a decision within a consent, when I make a decision within a consent, I feel light. I actually have heaviness lifts from me, even if the decision doesn't, it doesn't really work out. It feels light and this is what often indicates to me that I'm making. I'm saying yes when I mean yes and no when I mean no. That is the right decision. It fits with you. It's you in that decision. And that's like for me, like from the definition, like what I really, it really touched me when I first read it and even after I read it several times and telling to other people is the concept of authenticity that is based on this free experience of our inner life. And also that is calling for responsibility. So being authentic and I'm going to build on self's example, like making a decision that corresponds to me and standing by it, even if the consequences are not the most desirable and yet being able to assume those consequences. And being myself is not being authentically me. It's not an easy way to be and I know many people talk about authenticity and being truly myself. But it comes with relatively heavy responsibility because it's definitely not the way to popularity and not an easy way to be. So yeah, but it's still it speaks to me and I am in my practice as psychotherapist. I sooner or later I go there with my clients and I ask them, so how is this for you? And is this what you truly want to do and is this what corresponds to you? And it's not always an easy discussion or a comfortable question. Do you mind if I ask you to say more to the relationship between authenticity and responsibility? I think that is such a key piece, but I'm not sure that everybody would understand that. Yeah, I think when I am myself and I stand for what I experience and what I think that I'm choosing and what I think and expressing who I am, it comes with some consequences. It has an impact. I mean, think about it when you are fully yourself, you know, when people keep talking about being fully myself and that's a very great way of talking and being, but it's being fully myself. I don't know how many people actually are able to withstand that necessarily or truly want the other person to be fully themselves. So there could be some consequences, including like hurting the other. I've been living as an existential philosopher said that by simply being myself or fully myself, I can do violence. I may be doing violence to the other. So it's that kind of consequence that is calling for responsibility from my part. It's not just an easy scrolling the part like, hey, look at me. I am myself. It can damage relationships with others, but also with oneself, depending on what the consequences of my decisions are. That's such a huge question. How do I live fully me, fully authentically, but still live with others? At what point do maybe I cross the boundaries of another or we we experience some tension and quite a few people are very uncomfortable with interpersonal tension. I know I am. I don't love it. I do avoid conflict if I can at the same time that there does come a point where if I want to live truly authentically, it may not align with maybe my family. Family and what they say is acceptable or my community or these other groups that I've grown up with and are currently situated in. So often there is there is tension like Zavius said that that you felt light. And absolutely I agree with that. I think the lightness comes from at least for me of resting in a decision that I have the sense of I'm standing with myself, which feels incredible. But it doesn't necessarily feel good into personally all the time. Indeed, I think you make fantastic points there, Janelle and what came to mind was something that my mother's accused me of particularly when first kind of got into this existential kind of realm. Because she has one idea of existentialism and that's that's the South Korean version. And she doesn't understand it. Of course, because she hasn't really looked into it, but which is could you explain that for a second? Well, essentially the existential philosophy espoused by by Jean-Paul Sartre, who was a major cultural figure in France in the 60s, 60s, 50s. And the way at least that she interpreted it, and I think that a lot of people might interpret existentialism is a selfishness. Is that I don't give a fuck? Nothing, you know, well, you know, if there's no meaning in life and there's no order and there's no, well, I can just do whatever I like. And that will clearly annoy people and then grate on people. But I think that comes back to the question you posed to Janelle about how authenticity and responsibility go hand in hand. That it's not about just doing what I want and not caring about anybody else by any stretch of imagination. I think for me they're at least with the topic of inner consent. It was, it was a hard one. There were lots of growing pains initially, like in terms of, okay, what does it mean to be authentic and to actually go with or be open to what resonates for me and initially in my life that meant a lot of big changes. And Janelle, when you pointed out, you know, family changes or community expectations or family values and expectations, I had to really take a look at, you know, what really resonates with me versus what, what doesn't. And for me, it took a lot of courage to make those decisions to live a life that I could say yes to from within. And, and it's still, it's still hard at times to live with that kind of inner consent. But it definitely gets easier, I find. So now that some of those big shifts are out of the way or behind me, it's, it's easier now to be attuned to those little shifts or those little things or the day-to-day things like your examples of with the party. Those are easier to pay attention to now. And I think it certainly on in our interrelationship with ourselves, we feel that and then I think people on the outside of us, they respond to that as well. Even the more real and authentically people so to get to know us, even maybe more and more real way or in a deeper way. And so there is a response in the outer world also. And sometimes that, you know, can cause more attention, but sometimes that actually can alleviate quite a bit as well. Yeah, it's a wonderful experience, or at least in my experience, in my experience, it was a wonderful experience to have the outside world listen or hear what I had to say, give my my authentic decision and to respond positively. It was really transformative when I remember going back to the party example, it wasn't so much a party, it was supposed to meet a friend and I texted them what I, instead of texting them what I would usually text and say, I'm just not feeling well or, you know, I said, you know, tonight is not the night for me, I just, I just rather be at home. And their response was so positive, it was the most, you know, they were completely understanding and they said, oh, you know, it's a pity that you can't make it, but we'll catch up another time. And that's all relatable. It is, isn't it? Also points towards something really important in the existential analysis, like what you said that the outer world kind of responded positively, right? Like as we, we are all the time in dialogue, both with our inner world, when we ask ourselves, does this correspond to me, do I really want to go to the party? Or what do I want, if I say no to the party, what do I say, yes, which maybe when evening at home is family or by myself resting, watching a movie with family or by myself and so on. But it's also what you said, so it's also important to communicate my decision to the outer world and to remain open to what the world is telling me back about my decision. But all the time in a double dialogue with ourselves, asking ourselves, what do we want, what do we prefer, what do we say, yes. And we turn in dialogue with the outer world and see how does the word respond to me or what are the offers in the world that I can take up or not. That's something that I just want to highlight just because it's, you know, I think it's a word that we're going to use a lot is dialogue. And one of the things I notice with clients a lot is, you know, I'll talk about dialogue and we'll have a dialogue in the session. And then I'll talk about, you know, they'll say to me, well, I have a dialogue with myself all the time. And the very first question I ask them is, are you really having a dialogue with yourself or and they look at me but puzzled and I said, do you talk back to yourself? Because what a lot of them describe is really a monologue and often a very critical monologue, right of, you know, I'm not, you're not good enough, you should be doing this, you do it. There's no pushback, there's no dialogue, there's no back and forth. And better, they are just, their mother and father talk to them, right, it's not even, yeah, this is such a good point of, like I also ask my clients, like, okay, give me an example, like just do it, kind of like, think aloud or talk, right? And it's usually like they're just listened to a very critical voice that is not themselves. And that's the part where, like in the definition, guiding somebody to an emotionally free decision or emotionally free experience kind of really stood out to me because I find when I ask my clients about their emotional experience of something very quickly, it's a deviation away from that to either like a secondary emotional response, like, oh, I shouldn't have been sad. And now I'm frustrated with myself that I'm sad or other like cognitions or expectations or judgments that quite often sound like other people's voices or cultural narratives or maybe other kinds of oppressing narratives. Rather than kind of the, the essence of the kind of that first emotion that was there for them first, like, Sav, when you described that party example, I just think it's so clear that initial kind of gut sense of like, I don't want to go. And paying attention to that and really being open to it and sitting with it and dialoging about it, rather than kind of jumping to that next initial reaction where, oh, I should go or they'll be disappointed in me. That highlights the freedom part to say actually it's okay that you don't want to go and you're allowed to feel that you're allowed to not want to and to and it's valuable to separate our feelings and our impulses from what we do. And that's what we try to do in existential psychotherapy is to differentiate those because you can have a feeling about something and not want to go. Maybe the pros and cons and say, you know what though, like I haven't seen this person in a long time, they're only, maybe they're only in town every few months. So even though I don't want to, I'm still going to choose to go because there's some other values here at play, but it's all right to just allow that dislike or that hesitancy to be there. And I think that maybe that's a good time to talk about the phenomenology. Exactly and I was about to say that very related to what is such as this phenomenology that this is what general elaborated before is the free experiencing that we talk about in the definition that I read. Like it's allowing myself to experience whatever is there and then take a moment and away the pros and cons to use your language channel and kind of see what what is the most important value in that and make a choice. Or as you may hear us saying to respond rather than to react. Yes, exactly. So going back to your suggestion, Chelsea, so what is phenomenology? And if you cannot say if you try phenomenological, that will be that will be much easier. I find it helps if you put on a very character. What's the way I'm looking for a very stereotypical American accent. Let's hear it. Yeah, let's hear it. Phenomenological Wow, I'm in a chair. Well, I think it's even harder in Spanish. Phenomenology. Oh, yeah, yeah. How would it be in Romanian, Mahala? Phenomenology. What about French? Phenomenology where it's much easier in the Latin languages. I think we still keep our podcast in English for now, but maybe the next episode you're being for a treat. Yes, so when we talk about the being of phenomenological therapy and us kind of engaging in a phenomenological dialogue and process. What do you mean by that? I think that's a great idea, Chelsea, to unpack for our listeners a bit, because it sounds like it's a very complicated word, especially in English. But it's actually again, very simple. It's like, and very difficult at the same time. It's like paying attention and looking in order to see and listening in order to hear. And again, it seems very simple and you may say, well, yeah, we are doing this all the time. Why do you need the complicated word for that? But actually, if you think about even today, have you really seen what is in front of you? Have you really heard what maybe your partner told you or your children try to communicate to you? Have you really heard what someone told you through an email or a Zoom meeting and all that? Because I think many times we think that, yeah, of course, I listen to you. I hear you or, yeah, of course, I look at it. I see it, but we really don't. Because in order to see or hear, we need to pay attention and a special kind of attention, attention, a caring attention. And the attention that is focused at the same time that allows us to open, to see what is there and what is possible. And an attention that doesn't assume, I think, going into a lot of things, we have presumptions and expectations and assumptions, even before we, or as we're taking in what we're hearing. And I think that's the essence of the phenomenology is the openness to setting those assumptions or biases aside. And to use like a really, I don't know, concrete example, like if I'm observing an orange, an orange will speak to me in its own way differently than a sailboat will or a sunset or sunrise or another conversation. I think, EA really celebrate our phenomenology within EA really celebrates the uniqueness of what is before us, whatever that may be, and to attune to that uniqueness and to let it speak to me and impress upon me. That's beautiful. And I just want to offer really, really simple breakdown of the word phenomenology, which is that anytime you see logical, it's the study of and study of a phenomenon. And a phenomenon is anything that we observe that exists that we can look at. So everything, just as your example of the orange and the sailboat, anything can be a phenomenon that we can look at and for us to actually slow down enough to see a thing, but really see it in its essence. An incredible way of viewing our world, and there's so much richness when we can slow down and open it up, but we often, we take a lot of things for granted, we make a ton of assumptions about what the things that we observe and see and what their meanings are, we assume what, you know, what it's going to mean, how we interpret it. And we make judgments about it before we actually really understand what it is in and of itself. And to take it out of the series a little bit just because this is one of my favorite things, but it's on topic is the differences between ontology, causality, epistemology and phenomenology. And so, do you see yourself taking us out of the serious? Yes. Well, just hang on, just wait, see how this impresses upon you. So ontology, what the fuck causality, why the fuck epistemology, how the why the fuck and phenomenology, the fuck. Yes, that's very good. So we just deal with the fuck. Exactly. And we look at it and we try to see it for what it is. I was on the same similar topic, I was thinking like it's almost like the phenomenological look is kind of reclaiming our noetic virginity, so to speak. Oh, okay. Wow, I mean, you've lost Nina. I don't know if the listeners are going to be able to tell us more. Like I was thinking about like really like seeing something for what it is while stripping down all the assumptions, presumptions and all that. So it's and reclaiming a sort of again pure innocent way of looking. So this is what I what I meant, but it's funny because it the world of virginity came to my mind just before you read about. And I do think it's appropriate in to use that word because I don't think we often approach life that way. And so we kind of have to relearn what it's like to to look and to see something in and of itself. So I can't remember your exact wording, but you said like reclaiming a virginity or something like that. Yes, reclaiming, restoring like that kind of like again, pure look that or way of looking that is is not, you know, filled with assumptions. It's kind of like a looking at something with naivety again, kind of the eyes of a child really. How does a child engage with an object that we will look at and go, well, this is just a, I don't know, looking around the room, a bicycle. Yeah, but a bicycle is is more than just an object and a bicycle and and and what does it impress upon me? How do I engage with it? What is it that that appeals to me? Chelsea, your example of the orange reminded me of how this is a composer in the US called Martin Loudson. And he composed this beautiful coral piece and he said he composed it because he saw a painting that made him weep and all it was was a bit of fruit on a table. And that is the other aspect of the word virginity is it's also yes new fresh, but there is a fullness in and of itself that there is a completeness already to be experienced. If we really go back to the word virgin, what it means is that it is enough in and of itself. Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean these etymological excursions to speak they are very, very helpful sometimes to illuminate the meaning of a word. And it's also it to me when you when you spoke to them like it also what came to me is like there is also the attitude of all and surprise. And that comes is claiming that that innocent look, the way of looking. Would someone like to kind of share what it's like to work with a client in a phenomenological way? It's first of all quite hard because at least in the in the technique of the of phenomenology, the idea is to the technical term is called epok. But it's to bracket to take away all your took all your assumptions and preconceived ideas and and to try because it's incredibly hard to put them aside. And then to listen to the client and to pay attention to how your client impresses you and it's not impresses as in oh they're so brilliant. But literally as if they were pushing down on your body what it would feel like what their words, their manner, their. Their gesticulations everything how that impresses you and and tuning into that because that gives us information about what they're saying. This is important when when working with clients, but we can also do this with people in everyday life. For example, client comes in and says I'm depressed. Well, as therapists, we have a bunch of assumptions about what that means. We have different theories about depression. We use the diagnostic and statistical manual mental disorders tells us what major depression is and all the symptomology and the criteria. However, we don't ever fully know how it is to be depressed for each person. So what this does is we expand that we say, okay, tell us more. How is it for you? How does it feel for you? What reactions come up? What's going on in your body? And to really explore in a radical open way how depression is experienced for them. And we may find that yes, it aligns with the criteria. But we may also and quite often do discover such a richness in their experience and certain nuances that we would miss if we just, you know, okay, depression next and moved on. That's a fabulous point there to make Janelle the one of the things that I love about existential therapy and existential analysis in particular is that the question is is not so much what is wrong with you as what is your suffering. That this is what we ask ourselves and of course ask our clients as well what occupies you what preoccupies you what do you suffer from like this. And even if the symptoms of depression align perfectly with the DSM the criteria that experience is so much more so much richer incredibly rich even if on the surface the symptoms match those criteria. The way they leave each of those symptoms is so personal and unique and it's and engaging them in exploring that is therapeutic itself. Because so going back to what it means to work phenomenologically with clients of what south said is about allowing ourselves to be moved by what the client shares with us. And it's also of course being open and eliciting that lived experience from from the client in a biological manner and the reason we allow ourselves to be so open and to be so deeply moved and to check with our self how is this for me right now. To be here with this depressed person is because by accessing our own essence I mean how it is for us at our core to be with this person we invite the client to connect is their own core beyond symptoms labels diagnostic labels and so on. It's basically inviting them to take themselves seriously that experience and to make room for it. I mean depression is of course a dreadful usually a very dreadful state for most people but it's also a gift. So I think the phenomenological openness allow us to see and to feel even something that it's usually dreadful and unpleasant as carrying a potential gift the gift of slowing down the gift of turning towards myself. To to check with myself. So that's that's also one of the fruits of phenomenology and then finally like it's not just about all I feel in a certain way this is my lead experience and we dialogue and share it together. It's also the key question in existential analysis and in existential therapies like okay and now how do I live with this what is my response not just my reaction to this because maybe I really hate my depression that's my reaction I want to get rid of it. But what is my response to it how can I live with it how can I let it to shape my my existence how can I let it change my way of being my way of ways of being maybe I was a little bit too busy before I got depressed maybe I was maybe I was doing too much maybe. I'm not living my life authentically yes, which is definitely a thing that comes on with depression. So so that's a kind of coming full circle so we start to open this to what is to align ourselves to be moved and inviting the client to access their free lived experience and then staying with it to to distill what how to respond to this. Is this just a terrible fate that I'm depressed and if it is how can I be with it but maybe it's more than just a very unpleasant emotional experience. Thank you for summarizing that for us. I hope that made it a little bit more concrete and it's it's ironic that such a difficult word and concept phenomenology is actually rooted in the most kind of concrete and tangible you know reality of our experiences. There is no phenomenology without something very concrete. We can only do this process that we just talked about if someone is willing to to share with us something very concrete. That's why we ask them not for the symptoms of depression but how is it for you personally describe it to me. Yeah to describe is the word that I use all the time. I'll ask a question the clients will start explaining. They'll tell me the why and and I have to bring them back and say you know what is it describe it to me. Even if you don't have the know the precise emotional word for something just describe what it feels like what images come up what it elicits in you what colors even come up. Which could be so challenging. Absolutely for a lot of us. I mean we we often live our lives through like with our lives adjacent like through interpretation not quite fully in our experience. Then all of a sudden you sit with somebody and you really find yourself in this moment of oh. How how is it for me actually this is rather hard to say so it's simple and yet in practice it can be quite challenging and and hopefully with this podcast we're able to do exactly that. Take some existential concepts and themes that are often talked about you know quite intellectually with theories and abstract concepts and to actually bring them down and entire lived experience and embody them be with them and be with them together. And be with them in an open manner with all the uncertainty and ambiguity that they elicit and this is something really hard to be with. But you can also start anywhere too as as a way of kind of trying to work this muscle of seeing differently or seeing a new or seeing fresh. It could even be like you know I have shreddies for breakfast and I do it with not a whole lot of thought but I could ask myself this morning. How is it for me to have this for breakfast do I like it do I enjoy it what what are the sensations with it it's really something that you can start and explore and expand with even very benign normal things that you wouldn't normally think about. And a great question to to ponder and to ask you ourselves if not at every step in our day because probably does not realistic at least often enough like how is it for me to do this how is it how is it for me to try that how is it for me. So just to check with ourselves and to remain open to whatever comes up like if it's and of course to try going back to the word describe to if you can to describe in more details your experience rather than saying it's good or it's bad. Yeah what what is good or what is bad about it indeed a helpful example there is I worked in a in a restaurant in my younger days and the manager prohibited us from saying nice when describing the dishes. And so we're to become very creative in how do you describe a piece of steak there's many ways and but if you have to every night try and recreate that you can get quite yeah creative and and have fun with it. I think some words should be prohibited and that doesn't come from a phenomenological attitude coming from my other side but like words like nice interesting lovely I mean they are so empty and shallow most of the time unless you really mean this is interesting. And this is interesting and then you provide a description about what is interesting about that but there are so many vacuous empty words that we used to take us away from this phenomenological way of being and to cover up actually our free experiencing for the sake of being polite and so on. So since since we already alluded to the fact that it's important to pause once in a while and have a dialogue with yourself and to ask yourself some questions and then to be open to receive yourself and your answer to this question. We intend to end our episodes of this podcast with an invitation for you in the form of an existential question. And we invite you to to let that question again move you see how how you receive it if you can receive it if you cannot receive it try to notice what makes it hard for you to receive it and then how does it reverberate through you how does it move you and what comes up in terms of maybe for its reaction or impulse but then try to stay still and this still your response to this question. And we will have a spot on our website as well where you can bring your answers and you can share them with us too. We're indeed an instantly there too. So the existential question for this episode is what is it like for you to leave a missed uncertainty or with uncertainty. And our times are very uncertain times as we all experience and there may be more uncertainties in your life that are even unrelated to the times that we are leave. So ask yourself openly as openly as possible what is it like for you to leave with this uncertainty. And on this note thank you for listening to our episode today and we are looking forward to reconnecting with you with our next episode. Follow us on Instagram @existentialistpodcast and let us know your answer to today's existential question. To learn more about us listen to and learn about other episodes visit our website at existentialistpodcast.com.