Episode 002: Ara Katz, The Mentor

(upbeat music) Hi there, I'm Diana Cohen, and welcome to take your time. This is a space where we explore conversations about how to live your most creative life. I want these conversations to help you unlock your creative potential. Today's a very special day because we're talking to one of my favorite humans in the whole world, era cats. Era is the co-founder of seed, which is a health business that has an incredible symbiotic. She's really redefined gut health, and we talk a little bit about that, but we mostly get into our 13-year relationship. She is not only one of my best friends, but she's been a mentor of mine. I worked with her for many years. She's one of the first people I go to when I have questions. So we're gonna talk about a lot of things that she's never talked about before publicly. We talk about her childhood in New York City, which is really unique and special. We talk about grief and how the loss of a parent can totally change her lens on life. We talk about mentorship and our relationship. I know so many of you have asked, how do you find a mentor? How do you find that person? We get into the nitty-gritty of our relationship, so I hope that that's helpful for you as you build out your own world. We talk about how to live in alignment with your values in a world that will tell you to not. I think so many of us can feel really lost right now with social media with the noise. If you are seeking clarity on how to actually walk that path and live in alignment with what is meaningful to you, era is my personal North Star. I can't wait for you guys to listen without further ado, Eric Katz. (upbeat music) I'm with the lovely Eric Katz, and it's Eric, not our after those you want to know, but she will never crack deal. Eric is my soul sister. You are my soul sister in so many ways. And I'm going to try this thing where I start the podcast with three deep breaths. I think that's a great idea. Which I don't. I was even gonna suggest you take three. (laughing) I probably learned this from you. So let's start the show, and then I have the question that I want to ask you specifically. So, okay, inhale. And exhale. Inhale. And exhale. Last one, inhale. And exhale. Thank you for being here with me today, era. You are so welcome. I'm gonna ask you the question that you ask me often, and it always makes me cry a little bit. I know. How is your heart today? (laughing) I do ask that question all the time. I asked that question a lot in text too. I learned that recently, 'cause I went into my text messages, and I had to search heart for something. And literally, I was like, gave like, and I was like, oh wow, I asked a lot of people how their heart is. - Yeah. - How's my heart today? I mean, you know, it's a very interesting day, because first of all, I get to spend part of it with you. In New York, which is the city where our love affair started. So that is very special to me. And I also get to host a book talk tonight of a woman who poured her heart into words, and I get to kind of facilitate that conversation. So that part of my heart feels really, I think, full. And then if I'm incredibly honest, which I really cannot not be with you, my heart is in a very liminal space. It lives in the liminal at this very moment, but I'm like taking my time. - I'm so excited for you. And this conversation in particular, or something I've been looking forward to, because even as you just speak, it's like my nervous system. (laughing) - Glad yours does. - Which is crazy, because I kind of know what's going on from an earworking perspective. And I know that like how that shows up is just astonishing. - You're back home in New York, and I want you to take me back to being in New York and a little bit of little era, if you can share about her. - Yeah, I mean, you know, it's actually interesting being, it's a really interesting thing when you move to a place that you know, but as a person, that you are getting to know. (laughing) And that is an extraordinary thing. I was never, and actually really interesting, I just put this together, 'cause you know when I left spring, when I resigned from spring when I had a miscarriage. And I was by coastal, flying back in fourths in New York. LA, crazy person, get blue, services knew my name, first name, was on a first-time basis, most of them. And being back here with my children is an extraordinary thing. As a parent, you get to kind of rediscover a place. But it's very also interesting to homecoming is something I think, you know, homecoming, which I think is the name of all of our autobiographies. I think we take a long journey to find our way home. It is incredible to the word home kind of keep coming up for me as I've moved back, because you realize that for me, my children feel like they are my home. But at the same time, being here, and places that feel familiar, it's very interesting because at my whole life, I've been a traveler, I've been very nomadic. My entire life, I used to just pick up backpack, spent six weeks in Egypt by myself. This is by the way, pre-phones, pre-you know, I've been all around the world, like on backpacking through my 20s. I always travel myself to crazy countries. I spend a lot of time all over the Middle East, Europe, even Asia. And I think I always had travel as a part of my identity. And I was very interesting because recently, more recently, I started actually realizing how much I, I like, like, I'm valuing like quiet and actually staying in place. And it made me think a lot about what home can mean and feel like, and it's been like kind of interesting. So being here in the New York itself, of course, has its own hug that it gives people and that everyone feels those hugs differently on different days. So that's been really beautiful to just like be received, again, and also growing up here, it's, I was at the next game and it was like, literally, it was so crazy. First, guy from high school walks by. I say hello. Second person I see at the next game, guy from college, instantly, who did Christian or Spaceless. - No way. - The walk's fine. Stephen Levine. Oh, like Stephen Levine. I haven't seen you. - Of course, I haven't seen you. - I haven't seen you. I have not seen you since college. I was like, so is so nice. Then, I went to teach, called my co-founder, how I knew you, I was a spring. Walks right by. And I was like, what is going on at this, it was like, it was like the, with the Christmas, my Christmas carol. What's the letter, it's like literally at the end. - There's like, there's gonna be like a morale. - Yeah, it's like, what for? - Where is it like in my head? I'm like, where's this heading? - Where is it going? - It's actually when you walk around. And then my son goes to school. We were part of a founding group of families that started the Alpha AI chapter of New York City. And so, go to the first night. And I'm like, Matt Lembo, haven't seen you since seventh grade. He's a dad now. We have kids to get, you know? And so, it is very interesting to be here, outside of it just being like New York. It is a place that I have so much sense of place. And it also made me realize how much I didn't have that. In LA, which I think is so, how untethered I felt. This may, of course, if my kids, my family is there. It was many beautiful aspects. I've got such good friends there, but I didn't realize how untethered I felt there. - Yeah. - It's kind of interesting. So, it's been revelatory on a daily basis. Beautiful, cold, seasonal, all of the not 72 in sunny every day, which has actually been really extraordinary. And like, you know, it's interesting. It's been like a really interesting experiment and all happened also very fast. - Yes. - So speaking of taking your time, like this wasn't a life decision that happened, literally packed up the house in almost two weeks and had to come quickly. And that was a very interesting thing for me, because usually, like, particularly with when you think about take your time, you're like, everything needs to be done so thoughtfully and intentionally. And I think that is almost always right. But there is something to just sometimes, like, a prop chain, and you see that nature, of course, in biology all the time. - Yeah. - And it's been kind of an interesting experiment. - Yeah. I'm so excited for you. I see the energy and the shift in you since coming back home, if you will. And I think it beautifully mirrors all the other ways that you're coming home. - Yeah. - Right out to. - Yeah. - It feels that way. - And, you know, one could say we weren't home. That's obviously more of an extension than the matter work for a while. And, you know, I'd love for those who don't know. I'd love to go, like, a little bit through your life and career and journey. And, like, go as quick or as slow as you want. I'm excited to tell people when I'm at you. - Yes, please do. - Because I would describe you, for people who don't know you. I mean, there's so many ways I can describe you, but I always, like, no, no, no, trust me. It's the dream. I'm like, she's like a real life, Olsen says to her. (laughing) but like the science inert, like you are like the other Olsen, but so cool. And it's funny because I know when I met you, you were working on Beech Met, which was Diamond, your original. I worked in Mary Kate and Ashley on that. I know. And Danielle Doc Money and that whole crew, like early, I'm like early D to C vertically integrated integrated. You can explain it better. And then you know, you brought me on your team at Spring. Yes. I was at Into the Gloss at the time. It's so funny, talking about like looking at emails and searching things. I was searching something for Spring. I was making content, which I'll talk about content. And I found an email introducing you in Emily Weiss. Oh, that's right. Because Emily, I think was my reference. Yes, I think that's right. For you to hire. That's exactly right. And I just found that email. It was from 2013. At the moment of time. That's funny. Then she, because she later became a seed investor. Which is so crazy and full circle. And I remember when you first started working on seed. And there's so much story here. But at a really high level, so much of what I would love for this show to be is explaining how people become who they are. And so much of that happens in your first 20 issues of life, even if you're so unknown. That's kind of what crafty. So I'd love to do. Have you take us a little bit through? Well, it's interesting. You said that I was with you until you said so much of that happens in the first 20 years. And I would actually say, someone much older than you. I think more that happens later than we give ourselves credit for. If that makes any sense. Yeah. I think that I don't know if I knew who I was until the last year. In many ways, I always know, I knew myself. Yeah. I knew myself. I always had like a deep sense of knowing and intuition. I think maybe I would say I didn't, I wasn't listening quite as closely. And I think that's, you know, there's a lot of, you know, just like a tunement that happens, I think. But like I do think that there's not just for women, but I can speak as a woman. There's so much that happens in that like next 20 years. Totally. That, you know, is, is, and I think even in the next 20 years, I have so many women that I respect that are two decades ahead of me and they, and then they would say to me, wait until you see the next 20 years, you know, so I think it's an interesting thing to watch the accumulation. Yeah. Well, I agree with you. I write its lifelong work of knowing who you are. But okay, to kind of like put against that. At the moment, I met you and working for you directly, for two and a half years, which by the way, obviously, publicized has changed my life. You taught me everything I know truly about storytelling, grassroots marketing, building brand universes. Like I could go on forever. I am so much of who I am is because of you. And yes, of course, you were, I don't even know how old you were then, but like it was one of your first companies that you started. So you were era then. There was an essence of who you are. Is what I mean? All in that I was. Yes, you were era. Like, yes, of course. And the next 20 and 30 years are going to be even later and we're evolving and we're not the people we are. But like, you were always so uniquely you. And I'm curious like that essence part of it that I'm talking about. Yeah. Where did you become? Where does that come from? I wish my dad was here. Me too. Next episode. You know, I wish that it's not a, it's not that's not like a happy story. You know, I think like, well, I spent a lot, I mean, I would say a lot of adulting like very, very, very early. A lot of like really early trauma. Yeah. You know, I grew up in, I mean, I was writing, you know, just to one, one small example, I was like writing letters to my parents, starting at maybe the age of eight or nine and putting them under their bedroom door, begging them to get divorced. So, you know, I think in many ways, I sometimes think about this that I, I, the first brand I created was my world. Like, I had to kind of create, you know, I remember, you know, my, like, my room was like this like refuge, you know, and that's where music happened. That's where art happens. That's where my first computer happened. That's where, you know, like heartbreak happened. It's where listening to parents fighting happened. You know, and I think that, you know, and I think a lot of kids have that experience, you know, like, I think that a lot of kids like, you know, create that end up in environments that aren't necessarily like safe. Yeah. And where there isn't a lot of trust. You know, you, you, you, you, you know, you develop almost by survival. Yeah. Like a, not just resilience, and I think resilience is a part of it for sure. But it does, when you don't trust anyone else, and you don't trust your surroundings, you have to, the only thing you can rely on is your knowing. And those are, you know, those are mechanisms of self protection. And, you know, there's a million psychological, you know, rationalizations for like why they exist. But I do think it for me, at least it forced me. I always, you know, I was always like the producer, the director, the actor, you know, it was like, you're, you're, I didn't just like have to make the movie. I had to write the movie. I had to create the movie. I don't, you know, and I think that it, I spent as it was, I spent so much time alone. Yeah. Like so much time alone. And even to this day, I mean, people know I like to spend a lot of time alone. But I was someone, my, one of my best friends this morning sent me a quote, or it was, it was an excerpt of a text that someone had written. And said, I told my therapist, I like to spend a lot of time alone. Therapist said, well, you like to spend a lot of time in grief. And, you know, and I think that there was a lot of truth to that. And, you know, my mom died when I was 15. And that was a very horrific, very fast moving illness. And, you know, we, which we had a horrible relationship when she died. So that left a lot of like, you know, like open, open-ended questions and pain. And I think that I think, you know, through, and I also never really had like a girl group, you know, like, like I always had like one good friend here, one good friend there. They were always older. Yeah. And then they would graduate. And I think there was like a, I don't, I didn't feel lonely. Yeah. But I think that just being alone a lot, you develop like deep, deep, deep senses of like yourself and intuition and knowing. And, again, not always for the most, for the best reasons. And as I said, it's not like the, doesn't come from a very happy place. But creativity and creating, actually in many ways, I think was a form of survival. And I think creating is a form of control also because you can control. I mean, you can create, you, it is all within your control. You create a brand. It's within your idea. It's your, you know, and I think that, I've always, but I do think that it was a form of survival. And so I learned to tell stories. And I really learned to, you know, I think it's where like art and as I said music. And it was interesting. I was, I was, I was, I was weird in the sense that I was academically proficient. And I was an athlete too. And so I, I read about this in the book that I've been telling you about. I developed a relationship to like that kind of intuition and knowing as control and survival. But it also always made me like, it had a loneliness to it in the sense that I would go to like people's houses. And I would always, I just like watch their parents, you know, I'd like, I'd like watch the dynamics in the family at a very young age and like, like think about like what was going on between that like mom and that dad. And I remember I, they would like, so if you ever picked up a carpool or they were taking you home or dropping you off or just in an elevator and I'd like watch the dynamics amongst like adults. Yeah. Very like with a lot of like knowing. Like I remember thinking like that mom does not want to be in this marriage or that dad. There's something really dark or not. Okay, there there's, you know, and I would, and then I would watch the kids and you'd see, and I might have as a psychologist. So I had a lot of the language to like, to like understand some of these things. And, and so I think, you know, I think it, yeah, it was, I think a lot of my early like, and I did have like on the surface like quite a good, I mean, we did not have a lot of money, but you know, I had most of the things I needed and I had no extra advocate life. But, you know, after seventh grade, my parents scraped all the money together. I was on financial aid, but they sent me to Horseman, which changed the trajectory of my life. Because I was in, I was starting to act out and the head of the talented and gifted program in my elementary school told my parents you need to get this kid out of here. And that woman, her name is Edie Tenzer. If she's watching Edie Tenzer, you change my life. We love you. Oh, extraordinary educator. And by the way it shows you how teachers can change the trajectory of a child's life. And she changed the trajectory of my life. And just going to her classroom felt like my room, her classroom felt, I remember it was like we created an ocean. And when you walked in there, it was like you were in the ocean, which is part of my obsession with animals and biology and nature, which was where I got that from, a lot from her, some from my dad. And it was just, yeah. And I also had a loneliness around like how much I cared about Earth. I was from, I had a video from when I was seven explaining why all plants and animals and all living organisms must live together in peace and harmony. - Yeah. - And I had a real, and so all of holding all of that, like young, I think it just, truthfully it came out of spending so much time alone and being in touch and having this heightened, heightened sensibility about some of these truths that I just didn't feel like I could talk to, no one else around me, I didn't know who to talk to about these things. And I think that, as I said, it wasn't super enjoyable at the time, but I am very grateful for it now. - Yeah, I made you a superhuman, a extraordinarily curious person. - It makes you a curious person, the most curious person. - And deeply feeling, which I think is a big part of like all the work that we did and like, and that I think happens in the best, whether it's friends, movies, whatever, you know, you have to have that in being touched with humanity or humaneness. And I think that was something I've always deeply felt. It was just really painful and hard because I didn't know how to, who to talk to about it. You know, and I certainly didn't resonate in like groups of girls and I just, you know, so I spent a lot of that was all a very lonely period of time. - Yeah, I'd so, first of all, thank you for sharing that because I think so many people resonate with that. And it's probably something that we could all do a little bit more to is me alone, with our thoughts and our intuition, but I understand as a child and not having a space. - Yes. - To go to it totally side is that it's funny that you share the teacher who's space in room you were in because I recently did the brain spotting therapy. - Yeah, you told me that. - And you map out places in your life in your childhood that suit you. And for me, I had a teacher, Erika Gagag, who was my type of reading English teacher who saw me. And it wasn't about like achieving a performance. And she would be in the writing conference center of stairs and the writing conference center was my favorite place at my school. It's where I went to just be amazing. And it's so funny, I ended up writing my college essay about the writing conference center, which is hilarious. - Amazing. - I think it did now, but that's when I get, when my nervous system is a little, you regularly not regulated or something triggers me, I go back to her room. And I think creative curious people too, there is something about a room, a room of one's own, a space that it becomes the sanctuary for creativity and expression, which is so powerful. - The study of space in our brains and our body, I mean, there's the first, it's called neuroesthetics. And the first neuroesthetics program was started at Hopkins. And it, I learned very early on, it's interesting when I was really little, I used to make replicants of Frank Lloyd Wright, how I wanted to be an architect. I still do, you will do. And physical space, whether it was because I wanted to create a beautiful space that I didn't feel, I had or a safe place I didn't feel I had, no matter the reason, I think there is something that is deeply, deeply ingrained in me around like aesthetics and physical space. It is something I have learned. I tell people, I've said, you're overly picky. One way to put it. But I do, I've really become, I'm very, like attuned to spaces. And when I started reading about the research and understanding, you know, also just like the biological or rationale for it, I mean, it is incredible. I mean, the difference between a curved corner and a hotel in a hospital room can be more healing. - Yes. - You know, just to tempt me, obviously things like temperatures of, you know, like lighting and bulbs and how it impacts patient, you know, recovery and lighting. - I mean, lighting, lighting. - Lighting alone, it's a really, and it's interesting as I've gotten older, I've become more sensitive to, not just because we understand like circadian rhythm and all these things, but like, I just really started being more, I mean, in the same way that you're more picky about as you get older, who you surround yourself with. Where you surround yourself, I think is something I've think a lot about. - Yeah, you are someone who does so much research and I want to get into it because I know with your mother, you did a lot of research in scientific papers. I have a question for you that's kind of random, but I also just want to say to people out there that air has the best taste and, you know, and you really, and finally, I understand there's a lot of people. - It's true though, I started art history, I love design, but like working with you and working for you, it trained my eye. You know, it was a refinement of what I knew. - There's a bunch of people out there watching. - I know. - Do you know how crazy she actually is? We worked for her at seed. - No. - Push those pexels baby. - I want to be to hold the one out of play. - I'm a pixel pusher. - I was, you should be. By the way, there are certain people who deserve to be with the record and no truly. I sound like I'm, but it's true. - I did it. - I learned so much through that experience and like it was so interesting coming from working for Emily Weiss who's obviously like really created a whole, I mean, I'm able to do what I do at Crown Affair because of the work that Emily did, period, but then going to work and build with you and how the research into anything, whether it's obviously scientific in the case now and you know, as your mom too, but also just with building brand university, university's and telling stories. It's like the context and how it comes, the soul, that's where the soul comes from. - Yes. - I have a quick kind of side question. I know there was a quote from your mother and always follow the rest. - Oh yeah, it's interesting. I said told you that my mom and I had a really bad like mother teenage mom relationship, like really bad. Like I chose not to live with her like bad. And it was very interesting because you know, as she was dying the circumstances of how her kind of last months went, I was really like distant from her. And she had taken a trip to the Brook Shears with her then, with her boyfriend at the time. And she brought me back a pin, a little tiny little wooden pin which in like on this tiny little, much more than like a clear laminated or something in future a font. I didn't choose the font. - Yeah. - It said she didn't always follow the recipe and it was the last thing she ever gave me. You know, it must have cost like $3. It wasn't, there was nothing actually like aesthetically, I mean, I actually have a mountain on a piece of wood. And so for me of course it now aesthetically means something but it was so simple. And I'd like to think, you know, I'd like to think it's, you know, she somehow, it's very much what we were talking about which is, you know, I mean, as you know, there's no recipe. - Yeah. - The secret of life is there is no recipe. But I always thought about it in the context of maybe, maybe she knew me, you know, and I think that that, you know, is, you know, I have hope for that, you know. - Yeah, it's beautiful. - You're one of those beautiful recipes if you could see a first one. - The lens can be massive if we are. - I think that they kind of are been, it's true. - Yeah, it's true. - It's like you got it at night, yeah. Okay, I mean, there's so many things that I just, even you talking, I'm like, we're gonna have to have multiple parts of this. - That's okay, we decided that our episode is never gonna end. This is just part one. - Part one, part one, we're gonna take our time. - We're gonna take our time. - There's a great brand that says that as a bit slogans. - You wanna hear a crazy story? - You should hear that. - I should hear about it. The crazy story that I tell all the time when someone's like, I wanna launch something or I have an idea. Total side note, do people ever come up to you and are like, I'm gonna start a shopping app and you're just like, no, at a certain point, I just stopped giving advice on it. I'm getting people to download an app. But when I told you that we're walking around in Venice a couple of more, and we were, I was telling you about ground affair in this idea. And you, I don't know if you remember this. You stopped talking. We stopped walking and you turned to me and looked at me and you said, are you ready to make this your life? And my stomach, it was so real. - Mm-hmm. - Oh boy. - No, it was amazing because I did have, like I would say, it wasn't like an immediate time. For a period of time, for a period of time, which I was all going to. But it was like a yes. I'm ready to commit and give myself fully. I mean, you would already see it was already well in the world. And for those who don't know, I mean, I remember going over to your apartment, the app, anyone that I own, which was so amazing. And like, you working on, there was like turmeric and like all this stuff. You've been working on seed for a long time. I mean, you know, we're hands-seed forever. Like you were the first person. You're the first person to ever eat mindfully that I knew. Like I remember being at school. - That's crazy. - Because you were living in New York. I was living in New York. I remember when like, dirty burgers, dirty work, you used to look like getting to full light. And it wasn't in a way that was, it was just you. - Yes. - Well, that was from since my childhood. - Really? - Yeah, yeah. I was the kid with no, with my mom, we belonged to like nature co-ops. There would be like mushroom juice in my refrigerator. And my lunch was in a brown bag. Everything in it was brown or green or vegetable or fruit. My mom would make like organic, like coconut date rolls and put them in like roll them up. Like they look, you know, and people would be like, "Oh, you're eating poop." You know, it's like totally. Like everyone got like, "You're like, "Ring saying you're by the light." Yeah, I just like, "Yeah." There is some retribution to that. But yeah, my mom really, ironically given that she got cancer at 48. So you know, it's not certainly a, it's eating mindfully is not a promise. But it definitely is, that is something that was always like a deep, deep part of my life. And I think partially, also when my mom, you know, when my mom got sick, I think when you get older, everyone's older, grandparents always say, at least you have your health and I think in at least in past generations prior to wellness mania and longevity mania, we never really understand that when you're younger. They always say, it's wasted on the health, it's wasted on the youth. But when you watch the human body deteriorate very quickly, mechanically, aesthetically, like, you know, when you're changing your parents' diapers, like when you're 15 years old, I really liked something deeply clicks around that truly this machinery is miracle, is miraculous. It is, we get one of them. Yes, there's stem cells, yes, there's, of course, there's, we will see extraordinary things in our lifetime. But the idea that we don't do everything we possibly can to preserve this like one thing we get that enables us to love and do everything that we want to do with our lives was always, when I tell you about the loneliness, it was like, you know, you're sitting there at 16, everyone's like pounding alcohol and the, you know, it's, it is lonely to have these worldview. It is less lonely now because now it's just cool and it's a trillion dollar industry. But I still think even the way the industry's evolved, I don't know is like fully embracing it as religiously as I'm proposing, which is that, you know, whether you believe in God or you believe in you don't believe, you're, you're, you're, you're total atheist. I'm not a third party outsourcer and I don't think the universe gave me anything. But this is like, it is a miracle. Yeah. And I really deeply believe that we should treat it as such and I, and that that that goes beyond like self-worth and loving yourself. I mean, it is a part of loving yourself. But it is quite math. It is just math. Correct. You take care of it and it takes care of you. And they're, you know, and I think that that orientation is like driven, you know, and has driven so much of the, yeah, my life. Yeah, actually. Well, and it's, and it's interesting you just even saying, well, in this mania, I'm like, this is just so deeply authentic to you and your soul and you've always, yes, this is just inherent. And it's real. It's not like, you know, you wake up one day and you're like, oh, I should start caring. I did all that stuff then and now there's an opportunity in the wellness space. It's like your philosophies of how to move through the world. I think are so profound. And, you know, of course, that is imbued within seed in what you've built. Yes. And it's funny as you're talking. I'm like, you know, I don't know if people have ever had those moments where they can see like the universe, like right, like the smallest little molecule or thing in nature. And then like, it's like, it is the universe. It was immediately uploaded for your pipe form. I know. Yes, I know. I'm excited to share those responses. You, to me, you are that in human form. Like you are able to simplify, break it down into this tiny little thing you can like hold close, but it is so expansive. And I didn't realize that this is just nature, you know? Yeah, I mean, look, you know, perspective is such an interesting thing. It's, you know, I think that we, yes, I mean, look, we're filming this traveling roughly like 1100 miles an hour and spinning. Rock. Yeah. In the middle of the universe. That's true. Held down by gravity. It's so cozy. You know, it is and we're made of carbon. Yeah. Yeah. And so are stars. And there's, you know, and there's 38 trillion living things that are not human in your body right now called microbes. You know, it's that that keep you alive. Yeah. You know, and are pretty essential. And you know, it's, it is before you get into the electricity and the chemistry and all the things that are happening just for us to sit here and have this conversation. It is extraordinary. I think that we've really lost the plot. Correct. You know, and that is that's a that and that when you go back to like where how I got my worldview or became me, I think that was always something I felt really, really deeply was that we had like, and very young age that would really like lost the plot. How do you remember the plot? I mean, you know, I mean, for everybody, I think we're hoping how do we collectively remember the plot is a much harder question. I think we have so much, we've really like we've we've lost so much connectivity with our Earth and with all living things. We've decided that we as humans are more important than all of those living things. We've decided that some humans are more important than other humans. And we've decided that being human is subjective. Yeah. And I really and I really know that for at least for me, like you can't solve everything. You can't boil the ocean. You're never going to know one's not one person is going to solve everything. Contrary to public belief, AI may not get me. Yeah, maybe a beautiful tool for it. It may be a destructive tool. I think we we find ways to live in that duality as humans. But I do think that what we can do is that we can get quiet. I think we can create a life and and lives as we raise children who listens to themselves. Yeah. Which I think is really not happening right now because we spend more time looking at what everyone else says than thinking about what we what our voice, what's what's what's happening inside. So I think part of the solution is getting really quiet and really really redefining what listening means. And that means listening to our forests or screaming our oceans or screaming our bodies are screaming. Yeah. Screaming. I mean look at the amount of plastic in our own bodies versus an ocean versus a square foot. You know, it's you know, we we've I think we need I remember that you know Bob Bo Burnham. Yeah, the documentary he made during I was so funny. I was thinking of him on the floor at one point in the documentary. He made during COVID and he was like, yeah, it's a great thing. And he's like, could everybody just shut the fuck up. Could everybody just one minute just could everybody just shut the fuck up for one minute. And I do think and I by the way that includes self-talk. That includes the dialogue and the the the number we do on ourselves. But I I think that we all need to get quiet. I think we need to remember everyone says you need to live a life of purpose and not need it like I I am less about that. I actually I think that create that's just like a westernized way of feeling inadequate. Yeah. Because then you're like, well, I'm not living my life's purpose. What should the purpose be? I should buy this book and then I'll find my purpose. And then I should go see this person and I'll find my purpose. So it's just like another way of saying it's a goal. Yeah. Purpose becomes like success. Yeah. I think that I do I am such a naive person that I do think that love can conquer all actually really believe it. And I and I mean that in the sense of there isn't love around the tables that govern our countries right now. We're not being guided by love or being guided by our our minds. Not being guided by our hearts or not being guided by our knowing. Yeah. We can't get to our knowing because we don't shut the fuck up long enough to listen to it. Yeah. And we are loud and polluted. Yeah. In our minds. And in our hearts. That's also crazy. Our hearts are like really polluted oceans. Truly. You know what I mean? And it's like and and so I I'm very committed to. Hmm. Quiet. And and in quiet is when you can actually like hear. Yeah. And I really it's the I told you the book that is coming out I get my friend Cecilia a nice plug because hopefully by the time well actually the book's out so. Yeah. When this published it or when this comes out. My friend Cecilia Mark wrote a book called Undimmed that talks about the ways in which we dim ourselves. Yeah. And how we dim that little voice inside our knowing. You know, and I think that that if we were in touch with that who would be sitting on a committee that says okay, like it's okay to pollute the environment this much. Yeah. No, it just wouldn't be okay. It wouldn't be okay. Oh, we can we're going to kill this many less animals. It would just be it would just not be okay. Really? I love that you mentioned that over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Because every few years I see a clip of his yes, that is essentially saying like they are coming for every second of our attention. Yes, that's right. Every single second. And I don't see I wouldn't say they're coming. I would say they have. They have it's here. It's right. It's not. You know, you know, I mean think about it. I think this is my children. Where do you consume news that's not an advertising platform? I know. Nowhere. Right. So we learn about the world through advertising. Correct. And we're now living a world where it's just so, all of the things that are in black here are becoming real. That's right. Like truly just creating 24/7, never turning off. And it's interesting because, you know, I think a lot of people, and when you go in nature, you still have to take photos of showing that you're in nature. Correct. Because then you wouldn't have been in nature, because the tree didn't fall if no one took a photo of it and put it on like, it is a. But here's the existential crisis, which we've talked about. And I want to get into this, is like, if you don't post that, for certain people. And I want to kind of talk about this. Like, because we're about 10 years apart, I don't know. Yeah. But you, as you should. You're so brilliant, all of the things, but you should transcend this, because you don't need to do this. And then I kind of joke that like people 10 years younger than me, it's like, there are only options is to create every second. Not only option, but you know what I mean? Within like certain marketing, or the worlds that I'm building in. Yes. Obviously, if you want to go pee and concentrate, like that's of course, or an electrician or whatever, you don't need to take photos of the electrical ones. I'm sure there are electrician influencers. Well, and they've made it so easy that that seems like a viable path, but for so many reasons, that isn't a way to get quiet. You don't really figure out who you are. But I kind of feel like, I always joke that I'm like one foot in one world and one out the other. And even early in my career, it was like, I went into college wanting to work for Anna Wentor and I allowed it to working for Emily Weiss. Like, that was the shift. That's right. And I feel like, if you don't post it, it's like, how do you find the balance and where do you find the balance in the world that is changing so much? And you've been able to build an extraordinarily successful business in France. That is really healthy. Without posting my salads. Without posting your salads. But you know what? Maybe it would be more successful if I posted my salad. But let's talk about that though. That's what's so interesting is it's probably not worth posting the salads. It's a great question because it's very, I look like I could get a TED talk that sounds like totally, you know, I can sound and give all the sound bites of what I believe these algorithms are doing to us. I can, um, million reasons why social media from a mental health perspective to where do a rich, where does original thinking coming from to, I don't know, like at the, I've given at this point in my life 17 new lilies. Yeah. I know what people say about people when they die. I actually have been to many more funerals than weddings just because people started dying in my life starting at five years old. Right. So, you know, I was you, you know, I usually choose my grandparents at nine and it did one at eight, I did one at 10. My barometer is less about what, what's the era, you know, for you? What does my friend era think about social media? Right. My thing is that I want Diana to live every day in love with yourself. Yeah. That's what I want for you. Right. And in love with your life. And if you, like these things, these things, and the reason I bring up Eulogy is just because these things don't matter. Right. They don't matter. They don't matter. How you spend your life, how you spend the three, two hours on Instagram or hours, you know that you and I, I'm just giving a context. Yeah. And I could spend more time together. Right now. So, you, so these things are negotiations, not about like your social media good or bad. They're just the same negotiations. So, should I go to the gym or not go to the gym? Right. Should I do that? And yes, the, you know, the externalization of ourselves is something I'm very sensitive to, which is I think my dad wrote a really beautiful paper about like the externalization of self, which is that the one thing about these platforms that becomes challenging, which is a little bit black mirror, is that it starts to become challenging to discern what is you or what are you creating to be you in another space of people's perception of you. And that is something that, that is something that I don't know if I, I don't know if I want for my life, right? And that's not just because like, I'm older and like, I don't, you know, I don't, I didn't grow up in the generation of the, like, I think that's just, I, I need to figure out what I have a book coming out. So of course, I, you and I talk about this. But I think when you do these things from a place of, you know, it's like, we were talking about Rick Rubin. Yeah. You do something from a place of creating. Yeah. And you're not like, oh, but do it this way. So the algorithm, you know, and, you know, it, it, it really has to feel to you. Good. Yeah. But if you have angst about it, like any really, if you, if your relationship to it does not feel good, then you shouldn't do it. Or you need to change your relationship to it. Right. But I would say that if you said that to me about anything else in your life, you said, I don't like my company, that doesn't feel like I'd be like, then you need to change that. Yeah. But I think what the most important thing, like really smart people, to me recently, have met so many beautiful, like, women over the last year who really changed my life. One of the things that always comes up is if you have anxiety about something over and over again, or something creates grief or pain in your life, just know that you are choosing it. You are choosing it. Yeah. Yeah. You are choosing it. You are overthinking something. It means that there is something that you already know and you are choosing the opposite. When you have anxiety over something, it is usually a sign that you are not in alignment with your knowing and that you already know, but you are not doing the thing that you know. How do you do that makes sense? A hundred, by the way, you're looking into my soul. Yeah. Like, oddly into everyone. Yeah. So I'm looking into my own soul. A great example of like the one of the women said to me, you eat so happily. Why in this one part of your life do you go to McDonald's every single day? You eat McDonald's every day in this one part of your life. Why? Yeah. Do you want to go to McDonald's every day? Right. Like, no. No. It's like, whoa. Right. Per-found. Yeah. You're using CVS hair care. Yeah. No way. Is this green? Hair care five times a day. Yeah. Do you want to be trying to come up with a good now? No, no, no. Totally. I would never. So whenever. So when these things are coming up, you are choosing it. So if you're going to choose it and you say, okay, I've, I have made the decision and the choice that I am going to be on social, I'm going to create content. Right. How can I do it in a way where I'm not waking up with this like, I don't want to be doing it. I do want to be doing it. Like, who wants to be in any relationships? Anymore. Yeah. Who has a fucking time? No, no. We've got time. So like, if you're going to do it, just do it. Yeah. Just do it. And you're like, actually, I enjoy it. I like, I like creating community this way. It feels good. Yeah. Here's five things I'm not going to do because I feel like a fucking sell out when I do them. Right. And I don't like them. Right. Like, if a brand is going to be like, can you skip across the bridge? You're going to be like, I'm not going to fucking skip across the bridge. Right. You have to find your line. What feels on it? Or do it. And like, don't you have to bridge money to something meaningful. Right. That would be like, this is why I skipped across the bridge. It helped other people. Right. Now, everyone can see it. So funny because you're so amazing at transcending. It isn't, it's all these things happening within a larger, it's not about age, it's not about the modality, it's about the choices that you make. Absolutely. And by the way, I, you know, I say these things like, you know, I struggle with many things. I struggle with many things. I think I've always had a practice of breathing. And I don't mean like, doing breathwork hours a day. I just mean, we, when we breathe through these things and you get quiet, you know. Yeah. The question is what you do with the knowing. That's where all of our anxiety and all of our problems come from. Totally. And hearing you speak to this, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to do this show is to have conversations like this. And there's such, for me, there's such a cognitive dissonance with what's actually, quote, performing. Right. I think this wouldn't, you know, and I think that's where take your time comes from is like, great things take time. Have the conversations. Do the thing that is in alignment with you. And don't worry about the performance. And don't book guests because their name will help you in the algorithm. Right. Which is huge. That's super boring. Yeah. I was saying my friend, it is boring. You said something that maybe you want to say one more thing and I say this especially to women. And I say that especially because I feel it so deeply myself, we are contortionists. We are fucking full time contortionists. It's so tiring. It's so exhausting. We are contortionists. And at every age, you're contorting for something else, relationships, friendships. And I would just say, and we can tort for the algorithm to your point. Right. And I don't have a lot of 14,000 followers. And I don't post. But that's probably compared to some of the guests you will have and other things you could book. But you have to decide, and I say this out loud because I think about this all the time. Do you want to, are you okay? You have to decide what level of contorting are you comfortable with and why are you doing it? But I find the things that are the most interesting, things like, you know, we're talking about Rick Rubin. That guy is not contorting for anybody. No. We love you, Rick. I love you, Rick. And the things that just, you know, it's like, and that's when you start, you're at that fine line between like good food and processed food and then fast food, you know, and it is a really slippery. race slope because these algorithms really favor fast food. And it needs to be in a package, it needs to be in a factory, and it needs to be terrible for you. And her bodies and her environment, that's, that is what the world craves. Yeah. Or like that's what the algorithm optimizes for. And I just think and you know this from artists to art, you love the people that I respect the most in my life. And the things that are the most creative. People were like, I am not fucking contorting for anybody. And so that you know, it's it, it's not really like do I post do I not post. It's like why? What how? Right. You know, and there's so many interesting. I mean, look, it's there's so many interest as you know, there's so many interesting that Marshall and Chloe and I think you remember this from like when we used to work together. You know, he wrote understanding media in the 70s and that famous line that came out of it is the message. The medium is the message. So how do you bend these platforms to your will? It's the question. Yeah. You know, to what you want to create and what you want to put out, you have a line that says, take your time. Well, create content in a way that takes your time. Right. And that's what people forget. Yeah. And that it doesn't have to be like sensationalized and optimized. It's like, it feels so deeply. It is fast food in the sense that it might taste good for some, but it's so deeply. Yeah. Not nourishing. And I think what part of this I want this to be the antidote to like, I want people to actually feel nourished. Yeah. By the things that they're consuming. That's right. You need to feel nourished in doing it in the minute that you don't feel that way. You should stop doing it. Yeah. Just one season of take your time or mold. It might be half a season. Yeah. This might be the beginning and the fucking end of your podcast. Blind day of recording. You might be a one and you might pop it up three years from now or two months or not. I'm making it up. That's the marketer. I mean, but you know, that's where the storyteller. I mean, I really think that the world needs now are non-contortionists. We just need week. Like there we just can't like the group think and the lack of original thought and is and you know, and because of social media, we're also losing generations of voices. Yes. If I said I thought about having maybe a producer can tell me if this is a good or bad idea. Yeah. I thought about just having a podcast of all these extraordinary people who have no social media. Thank you, Todd. Because no, who's gonna, it's like you remember when Spielberg, you know, the Spielberg and the show of foundation went and documented all the Holocaust survivors because who was going to remember these stories. And so for me, I'm like, there's so much wisdom. Can you do that? Last. I don't know. Yeah. I'm going to do that. But you have pretty set. But I've really been like so excited about like who are the people who have no social media going back and have so much to tell us. The tree falling in the forest. If you take a photo of it, it says, does the non-contortionist exist? That's right. That's not contorting within the context of me. How do we know about them? Right. I actually think it's so brilliant. And it's crazy what's happened in this world and how in disconnection we are. And I always, every single time I'm with you, you are such an anchor and you are so knowing and whatever is that you navigated through your life. As you know, and still am. And still am. But like you're, you're just so deeply rooted in all, no matter what's going on around it. I'm like, oh, era will know. I will always know. And you know, it's funny. People, I think a lot of people know, are mentorship and program seedling. Yes. Know that that's inspired by you. And I'm, you're the one who told me about that word. I even remember one time, it was 22 or 23 working for you. And you're like, oh, I should have been saying that word. And it was like, this is how things grow. Yeah. And you've such extraordinary perspective on all these different things. And yeah, I'm curious. Like, I think the one thing about you, I just had an image of you coming out of the stalls crying. It's that spring and brought tracks and Broadway in our Broadway office. Yeah, which office. Which time were you crying? It's really every office, every time. Diana, cred off in guys. But that, by the way, that is, first of all, you cried often because you give a shit. Like you deeply, deeply, deeply care about anything you do, which is extraordinary. That is extraordinary. That already your social media will inevitably just, you know, not so social. It's just whatever you're creating will be different because you care so deeply about the things you do. And that's why one of the reasons I love you and loved working with you. You know, it's like that quote, you know, how you do anything is how you do everything. And that is like, if I may, if there's any take-home message from this, that is it. Is that what you say? I know. I think you told me, I was just laying my producer because I literally sat this yesterday. I was like, I want this podcast to not, because by the way, we all get on shows. You get on shows. We could listen, you talk about seed and the science behind seed forever and I love it. And it's incredible. But I really want this space to be. I think you probably came from you telling this. How you do anything is how you do everything. Yeah. And I want to understand that. Yeah. Because when people listen, I hope that they get inspired. Because at the end of the day, I would love for them to go, you know, use and change their lives with seed or crown affair. But it's not actually about that. It's about how you do everything. It is. And, you know, I'm going to go back to why you're crying. Yeah. I'll let you bring it back. So I remember that you were talking a little bit about this was going to be some un-sensitive advice for you. But only because I really learned, really until recently, didn't fully appreciate this. Because it's such an obvious thing. But the thing at that time, which was a while ago, is that you didn't yet trust yourself. And I still see that a little bit. I still don't know a lot. Yeah. And I did not fully understand that word. Actually, two kids, like companies later, like I really truly didn't understand what that meant until recently. Because when you trust yourself, there's like a, everything just clicks into place. And you can't not listen. Because no other piece of data is more important than the inner voice that is saying, yes, no, maybe, you know, whatever that thing is. And I really, and that, I used to see in you. And I always used to remember like, feeling my heart, remember, because I would always go to yoga often after the end of our days, right on Broadway. And at the end of yoga, you always, like in the Shavasana, I always think about people in my life. And I think, and I remember, I used to just think for you about trusting yourself. And I really, and that's what taking your time, you have to trust yourself to give something time. You know, like you really, you really do to do something thoughtfully and intentionally, or as I said, moving your face sometimes, it's very fast. But you do need to have, you have to trust yourself. And I think like women, you know, we talk a lot about self love, which is part of that and safety and, you know, confidence and other stuff. But trust is like a, it's a whole other dimension. Totally. And it's hard, even, I mean, not just yourself, but also even with team, like I think about the context of my team, the work that I had to do the last two years to trust. Other people, which I know you've spoken about and shared and we talk about this all the time, when you build something and then we need to trust in, it's the same journey of authentically trusting yourself. And you have those intuitions and you feel what's going on in your gut, but you don't always make those decisions. It's a lot of work. It's the most important work. It is the most important work, but it's, but it's what will answer the questions about social media and content. Do I do this? Do I do that? Do I not do this? Yeah. You know, and that you can only get to those answers if you, you got to get quiet. And speaking of, oh yeah, can we read the book? Oh yeah. I love it. I love it. So in the vein, in the vein of era texting me, how is your heart this morning? I woke up with a text very early. Very early. I was up at 6, you were up at 530. That sounds about right. So I sent poetry at about 530 in the morning, which is the best. And it's of all people. Well, do you want to share what you sent me this morning? Yes. Well, it was, you know, I was preparing, I've been preparing for the talk tonight for Sessley's book. And you know, poetry is such an interesting medium because it, you know, very similar to like most art, like it really calls you in to like a remembering of this like universal experience that we all have. And probably over many episodes, you'll start to really probably just throw them all in Chachi B.T. But you may also in your own brain start to pattern recognize, you know, these threads that we all share that are so a James Baldwin has a beautiful quote about like just this like shared human experience and how we all have the same pains and the same try. You know, and so I was thinking about the, you know, the book talk preparation and a poem made of this Mary Oliver reading, which I had never heard her read that poem. She's one of my favorite poets, but I had never heard her read what is one of my favorite poems called The Journey. But I thought about you for a million reasons. But because we were going to have this today, but of course I was like thinking, I was as I've tried it all the type of poem favorite, you know, these like poem, you know, or favorite, like, you know, different different images or art. I was like, oh, we should talk about a poem. I'm going to add up the poem to the type of poem. Because they're really all of the things, all of the things. mediums and I used to think it was movies actually which I made many of it for you to get to talk about that. You know I always think it was movies that changed my life more anything but when I really think about the things that like sit in my back pocket with me all the time it is there it is poems. That's poems. Yeah and in her poems particularly just have like maybe just you know different seasons different reasons I found them at different moments in my life but there are a few but one of the sweet darkness is my other one but this one I thought was so beautiful this is Mary Oliver the journey. One day this is great actually it's great for what we're just talking about. One day you finally knew what you had to do and began though the voices around you kept shouting they're bad advice though the whole house began to tremble and you felt the old tug at your ankles. Then my life each voice cried but you didn't stop you knew what you had to do though the wind pried with its stiff fingers at the very foundations though their melancholy was terrible it was already late enough and a wild night and the road full of fallen branches and stones but little by little as you left their voice behind the stars began to burn through the sheets of clouds and there was a new voice which you slowly recognized as your own that kept you company as you strode deeper and deeper into the world determined to do the only thing you could do determined to save the only life that you could save. I love you so much I love you so much I always think poems are like the most immediate medium to just expropriate like it's like everyone can very much so like I think sometimes it can be overwhelming yes with creating whether it's a brand or a painting yes it can feel daunting but there's something so just visceral about it. The first artist we ever commissioned for seed was a poet right humble yes oh my goodness there's there's about seven million things we can talk about you can call my agent I might be available for more I mean we'll see I mean I think I think I think a you should start your own show where you interview people who don't maybe since I think that I'm very profound I got a producer yes you have producer she's incredible I've made my major producer cry I mean she already cried she's amazing I won't use that against the negotiation so one of the things that I'm trying to do is like figuring out how we wrap up the episodes and I know that there will be a part two but theme of the show is time yes so I have three questions instead of doing rapid fire sure it's too fast yes we like to take things okay take some I'll take your time back okay is what I like that the first one is and I'm so curious what your answer is gosh if your whole schedule cleared tomorrow how would you spend the day I would take my children out of school and to my dad's house and take a walk in nature with him spend the day with him sounds like a perfect I think I spent that day I'll see I'll email your EA let's see if we can get everything off your calendar the second question I usually ask generally but I think because you've given so much great advice I want to make almost this focused on building seed the second question is time is the only thing you can't fake you can have all the resources throw money people anything but you cannot fake time what is one lesson you can share that you could only learn over time that you cannot under any circumstances abandon yourself you're such a poet do you write poetry I used to I used to have a you know writing the book recently felt like poetry even though it was prose I'm so excited for your book I've thought about putting some poems throughout the book actually you should you're opening and closing it with a poem if not about that I love that a bit yeah we're gonna it's a good tone better if you can't do the three breaths it's a great the metaphor call it right it's like a three-boss no it's a pala clen- perfect poems or pala clen- it's actually great that's it about every seed event we ever had open with a poem and it's a wit anyone who's out there who I don't know I don't know anyone I I literally don't think I know anyone who isn't familiar with seed like I actually think about my immediate work but for those who aren't if you do exist what do people do check out the storytelling that seed does because era and her team are extraordinary and will literally change the way that you think about things that's what I've learned from you by the way thank you although I don't you know as you know I'm not currently the storytelling human it so maybe go way back well that's we can go way back but I think about every first activation you did the poem you know commissioning poetry like you you have rewritten a script of what it means to be a brand right and thank you the work that you're doing is more profound than just the brand and the product but I think for me it's been a masterclass as I build out Crown Affair and I think which you've done masterfully one of the things that comes to mind too from a marketing perspective that I think really got seed on a lot of people's radars was the work that you did with the Times Square beltboard oh yeah can you share a little bit about that oh you know it was so interesting I was so funny I we just did it because I was like of course this is what you do but there was Molly Bass had been put on a I believe it was one of the billboards in Times Square that owned that was owned by I believe it was clear channel and it was about breastfeeding and it was just showing her like intimating breast it wasn't actually breast and they flagged it the FCC flagged it by the way if you look around Times Square it's women in like lingerie and like it was it was absurd I thought it was absurd we had to have a billboard directly across the street so we call Molly I call Molly I said we're gonna put you up directly across from that no problem and I'm gonna keep it up for as long as we want to and so we literally got the billboard up within hours and put it up directly across the street and then you know I think it just became in New York Times wrote it out but it was kind of became a thing but it was really just a statement to say like you know what we it was it was um you know obviously a protest against like the idea that we you know a woman's body that way especially in the context of everything else that was there but just in general yeah you know could be flagged and censored at this day and age was extraordinary to me and so we took our whole you know we obviously those they're not inexpensive but yeah we and we left it up for a really long time yeah that was so profound and I think really it was it was like a don't mess with us no I was like you you just and those are the moments whereas brands you you know that's what I was saying about humanity to if those are the moments that you remember like when you have a platform yeah let's say everyone should be political I'm not saying you know that I have my own thoughts about you know what's happening in the world that way but you know they are moments where you do remember that if you are going to build what you're building if I you know that there are moments where that can be wielded for good and where you can forget you know a lot of people be like you used your ad for another company you know your ad space and your marketing dollars for another company like why would you do you know and those are the moments you're just like dude and we always just talk about this brands are just a bunch of humans sitting on a table making decisions there's no like they're not like this like organism that exists by itself they're just and they're also just companies of people yeah and you know so you do have to just remember who you know that we're just remember our humanity yeah and that was just the moment was just like how could we allow at this moment in time a woman's body to be censored yeah so if you have a means to do something about it yeah and say something we you know so we did it as incredible and it was it was it was nice to see the the support and the response and I think you just you know it feels good when you get to a place where you have a platform where you can you know you can make statements like that yeah it makes me so happy because going back to kind of those micro thoughtful moments of intention that can be lighter or within the environment of a book talk or an event with 12 people like to see it at that scale it's like yeah it's just so cool yeah you know it's fun it's fun when you get to do things like that yeah it's an instant crowd and very many and very by the way those are the things that are so meaningful people on talk enough about like the internal parts of these things but those are the moments that I actually forget like the outside New York Times articles like everyone was posting it like all that stuff is great and cool and you know that's the external you know validation piece which as you know as you know I'm not somebody that cares a tremendous amount about it was the internal experience for my team doing it that was more meaningful than any other part of it right the notes that I got from like women on our customer service team being like I am so proud to work for a company that would do that yeah that was like that was so profound because you really do forget like that those are that was the stuff that like those are the things that like are far more important to me yeah and then it really created so much meaning it was inspiring for the team and it also then it opens up the question of like what else can we do yeah that was that was really exciting and that was really the part that I mean meant the most to me honestly a lot of it it's funny because I am calling the show podcast take your time but I almost called it getting to why and I had this whole like Wimpsville world around it and why at the end of the outfit next for right and that what you just describe that feeling is is so much of my why yeah with building crown of here obviously in smaller ways, but even just like how the team feels proud of what we're doing, you know, I might have a conversation with someone who doesn't feel like they're represented or don't think that Crown Affairs are them and then come back with all these learnings and like sitting with people and listening to them and how you make people feel is like all of this is the why. I mean, look, as we, you know, brands are just kind of conduits for human connection, like that's really all they are. You know, I think we've turned them into and said many things about them and but they really, they really are that. I mean, it's why that you can sometimes have a brand that you're like looks kind of soulless but has like a massive community of such engaged followers. People find things they connect around it and then they use them, they use us. In the best way, because people are seeking, we're talking about the loss of blood and we are seeking connection like so desperately. We really are so we are not just so disconnected from ourselves, we are so disconnected from each other. Disconnected from our children in so many ways that we never were or were just and that, you know, pandemic of disconnection that we live in, it gives brands like such a beautiful opportunity to be one conduit for connectivity. It's beautiful. It's like a, brands are like a sand painting. They're not always going to be here forever but while they're here, people get to walk around it, experience it, you get to add to it. I think it's very much like a physical, brands are kind of like what we were saying about physical spaces. They call people to one space, to experience. And I think that's obviously what people are really seeking. Yeah, it is a powerful medium. In a way. Very much so. It'll be my last question for you. When does time stand still for you? I mean, that was my first thought was do I want it to stand still? I don't, I don't, I just think that it is the one thing we try and control everything. And I think I like kind of love the idea that we don't control it. So I don't mind, my, my, my reflex was, I don't know if it ever stands still, but I think that's, that's the beauty of it. I think, and, but I think the enriched experience of it comes from some of the things we talked about. Yeah. Which is actually the noticing of it is the important, is actually the important piece. It's not the like stopping, right? But the actual, the noticing of it. I mean, if you've ever just like looked at a watch for 60 seconds, it's a long, fucking times. It's like, you know, so we've like, you know, so interesting. How we like, we like codify, you know, we've productized time, right? Because like, we've called it, we have seconds, five minutes, we have hours, we have days, we have months, we have years, we've productized it. It has, you know, it's like, came from agriculture about, you know, what lunar, you know, the lunar cycle is like, you know, we, we like, we really inhabit like very old systems. Right. So when you ask me that, that is like an agrarian based, if I were to take a very agrarian interpretation of time, yes, we wanted to stop, right? Because we've like industrialized time. Right. You know, losing it. It's losing it. So anyway, it's a language. We got to make more of it. Here's how to hack your time. Here's how to make more to easily. Here's like 40 hours. What is it? 40 hour body. Here's 40 hour work week for it. It's like, it's like, oh my god. You know, it's like, that works. People are drawn to that. They hear they're like, oh, this will help me. That's what you're saying. Yeah. But this brings us to one thing we didn't talk about. Super important, which is, and I think maybe when you said, I said the self-baniment thing. Yeah. It was one of the important things. But I'll be greedy and say, too, which is that. And what I was my answer for time was that like, we, we need to be first principle thinkers. And if anyone doesn't know first principle, it means you must quote. I mean, the whole question about time standing still comes from a very westernized idea and industrial, like agrarian idea of what time is. So we get it back. We take it. We accelerate it. We don't accelerate it. We want it. It is an interesting thing because if we just stepped out of our system of time and understanding it and thought about it, you know, it's like, you know, and I love sci-fi, right? I'm like a total sci-fi. So like, if you think about the matrix or any of these things, we must first principle what it even means. Right. We have to. Right. We have to. We create these systems to suffer within. It's crazy. Yeah. Get the time back. It's like, I imagine if we just went into the chat, she would be saying, give me every single like, the medic thing about time. It's like, it's a fucking exhausting. Yeah. What to it's pollution. It's pollution. It's pollution. It is pollution. What do you have a definition of what it means to you? I really try and practice as much not always well, but as much non-attachment as I can. At least that's the the asymptote. I'm always leaning towards. And so I think in some ways it's it may be something very similar to love in certain types of love that I actually have really resigned to really not defining. And I think that our obsession with even defining things creates suffering because then when it's not that, it's not the thing. It's not what you decided it was going to be. And so I think, you know, defining things and codifying things with language is a very, again, it's a very Western thing. Right. It's why we have an even our language, even English alone, you know, compared to other even like languages, it's so limited. You know, we like to one word for feeling good. It's like it's insane. Like other countries have like 70 words for like the spectrum of human feeling. So, you know, we've inherited like these ideas that if you define something and you codify it, then you know it. Right. And that's what I was saying earlier, which is like knowing and intuition. Like I'm very excited about the rest of my life being a place where my mind is an exhausting place. My body's exhausting in some ways too. You know, like I work, I'm still an athlete. I like, you know, and I'm really trying to make those not my guides. And in doing that, I don't mean to give you a little terribly long answer. Oh, I love it. But I think it's awesome to think about just first principles these things, which is like, should we have that relationship to time? Right. Does that, is that good for us? Does that enrich our lives? No. It gives us fucking anxiety. And then we take medication right about that anxiety. And then we get depressed because we're not doing things with our time that we thought because it's all our relationship to time is one of productivity. Right. That's fucked up. Yeah. That may not be what time is meant for. It's probably not by the way, my biggest thing that I'm working here is scarcity around time. Right. The big pressure I put on it. Oh, dude, and you don't even have kids yet. I know. I know. I know. You're telling me about scarcity of time. That's hilarious. I know. I know. I know. It's that. No, I know. I know. I know. That was kind of sending it. I did not mean no, no, no, no, I love it though. It's true. It's like, it is true first. All in like that. That right. People always say it expands you. But this is such a beautiful thing. And it's funny. Even in asking the question, like when does time stand still? Because like, by the way, the answer is probably the answer to the question of your character. Right now. And now also your calendar is hearing, right? Because that's the presence. That's right. But what I love and I heard no, but different. No. I told you. I didn't agree with you. No. Calendar clearing is presence. I'm fucking sitting here. And this was on my calendar. And I'm fucking present. Right. And every and I try and go into every one of my calls, presence. Yeah. And you are like you, you, you, you, you, you, that's a decision. You may, I've decided over, particularly over the last year. Like I don't put a call on my calendar. If I can't be present, right? Are you if she was a saint and was my chief of stuff right now? Yeah. Knows that I cancel things. If I know that I'm not going to be able to show the fuck up, right? And you know what? People are always happy about it. Right? And I, I under in. It's not me like getting my time back. Yeah. I mean, like clearing my calendar. So I can be present. The answer to your question is I would do the same things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It would be nice to take my kids to the nature. But like, totally. I'd also just do I would create and live my life. Right. But I think of the attachment to these things is where all of our problems come from. How does one work through being non-attached? Because by the way, and we're going to share the type form, but like so many of your answers were in that direction. They made me smile. Yeah. More than anything. Yeah. But how? Yeah. Look, there's no, there's a number of them at the, you know, for me, like my life, they're not. And I, please don't open no one's listening. It's somehow figuring out all the answers. And I've perfected this. It's just what I, you know, I, it's what I practice. Yeah. I was about to say what I aspire to. But even that is like an attached idea where you should in one day be. I just, you know, you practice. That's what yoga is, right? It's a practice breathing is a pride. And then, you know, the beautiful things about practicing is that you don't have to be really trying to get yourself anywhere. Right. But I am, you know, I, as I told you, you heard, you heard about my, like early life, I spent, you know, like there, I've had a lot of suffering and a lot of pain in my life. And still do insert in areas of my life. I don't know that that ever entirely goes away. I don't think there's like some Nirvana. It is, of course, how you metabolize it and how you live with it. But, you know, the how, first of all, is deeply personal. I can tell you for me as somebody who is more intellectual and and have really tried hard to kind of move out of my mind. For me, that's been like 20 plus years of psychedelics. And so, you know, Silasaybin and Ayahuasca more for like the last maybe decade or so, or a couple of decades and then more recently. And actually don't feel called to either of those. Again, I've never done them like recreationally. I've never done them in a group. I've been done them guided with people who are wise and who would be a great podcast. - Yeah, yes. - And more recently guided MDMA, which I think really actually changed the trajectory of my life. I think every time I've ever done psychedelics or any certain, there's certain many things that have changed the trajectory of my life. But just for whatever reason, these last guided MDMA has felt to me one of the more, like it dropped the switch in the train tracks in a way that maybe other things haven't. And I think when you feel, it's very interesting because when you feel, when you have that much oxytocin kind of letting your body, when you feel that kind of, and can access, that, first of all, that kind of surrender. If you're a thinking person or you're an anxious person or you're an overthinking person or you're more neurotic or you're just the thinker and you're somebody just is more mind-led, surrendering in general to something is very important. And sometimes for me, psychedelics have been a way of accessing for someone a very curious person, but accessing parts of me that my mind really did a beautiful job of painting the doors over. And that has been profoundly meaningful, but then also the feeling, particularly guided MDMA, of feeling that amount of love, flooded, flood being flooded with that, in a way that you can't control, talk about time. Those are moments, sometimes you've done it, you started like to 9, 10, 11, pick your head up at 4 p.m. and you're like, where did that? And that's a beautiful, and that's the surrendering piece. And I think that way of understanding, like it's like plugging yourself, you've seen Avatar, so we both have long hair. So I'm always like, where do I plug in? Where do I plug this in? And when I've done, whenever I, whenever I, 100% whenever it's great, Halloween guy, whenever I've done guided MDMA, I really feel like I take my braid and I just, and you plug it in and you know. And it's not that it gives you, it gives you knowing the beautiful thing about MDMA is that it shows you that you already know. And that everything you need to do is nothing. Yes. And that it is all here and accessible. We just do an extraordinary job of missing it and hiding it and confiscating it and calling it. And so the beautiful, most beautiful thing that's happened to us, what I said about being quiet, is that most of the most intelligent people that I know and the wisest, they always say to me, there is nothing for you to do right now. There is nothing for you to do. And that is, that's profound. Yeah. When everyone else is telling you like, by this book, do this for a little bit. Here's the five steps, you know, there is nothing to do. Yeah. My father, Larry, who you know, who loves you. Yes. He's 82. Hi, Larry. Hi, dad. I don't know if you know how to listen to podcast, but we'll try. I'm going to send you like, well, he'll send it to you. He is going through a transition in his life where he is creative entrepreneur, all of this. And he is just loves to build and work. And I wrote down on a little legal pad because he loves to, you know, it's only going to be a road down next to his foot. I wrote nothing needs to be done. Yes. That's right. Because, and maybe I gave quote in my own head and be fine at the permission because it's the season. I'm like, you don't, dad, you don't, we wake up. But you're good. Nothing needs to be done at this season. You should say, and now, now write yourself that. No, we're not. We're not. Now. There is often nothing to be done. I think we spend a lot of time worrying about what we should do. We shouldn't do. I say this. I not say this. And there's nothing to be done a lot of the time. You know, I think it's okay to sometimes getting ourselves out of this idea of productivity, which we do with our heart. That's what I was saying about our love. Our hearts are polluted. Yeah. We've created, we've knew, we like literally give our heart to do lists. I know. Say this many times gratitude. Do this. I know. Like do it. It's like we've really product, like productivity, eyes. Yeah. Everything. And we're all exhausted. Yeah. And then we go productivity tight. I know. You're so five things to do in your exhausted. Here's a thing. I know. You're good. This is, you know, it's like, oh my god, like exhausting. Yeah. I know. I love your brain. More than any other brain. I've ever met. I love yours. I love more than your brain. I know. I love all of you. All of you. All the parts of you. You're the part of you that doesn't trust yourself fully yet. I'm going to get there. I know you will. I believe. I do believe in. It's all through seasons and moments. Even in doing this, it was really scary. I was, you know, you were my anchor to go back to that. And this is you are your anchor. And I am a mirror. I love it. You're going to make me cry. Thank you. So much. I love it. You're not by the other heart. I'm either harder than one. I drop the number. You know, everyone. Everyone's a mirror. Everyone's a mirror. Also, by the way, I might need to rename the whole show. Yeah. I'm the thing about you. I have this. This is really what we've done this before. Okay. I actually think it's really profound though. And it's a great topic in conversation that not enough people talk about that. Yes. Our perspective on time. And I love. I love. I love it. And I love it. Well, you know, not to end the Sunslaughter House 5, but the Charles Medorea. It's going back to our love for sci-fi. The way that they see time is through the mountain range. And I think that's right. That's right. That's a beautiful book by Brooks. I know. Well, there's another one called the other side of the mountain. And he talks about like, he can always tell who's on their first mountain and who's on their second mountain whenever he needs them. What mountain are you on? On my second mountain. You're on your second mountain. Yeah. The first mountain though is, you know, you need, that's the ego. That's the part. That's the lot of the suffering. And I'm not on the top of my second mountain, but I'm, I've started traversing it. Where is your mountain range? It here. Here. In your heart. Here and now. Here and now. That is awesome. Yes. I love you. So fucking wise. Thank you for being here now. Subscribe to Take Your Time wherever you get your podcasts. And you the conversation at TakeYourTimeUniverse.com and find us across socials at Take Your Time Universe.