- Hello, Gurofate, welcome to this sit-cast. Thank you for being here. My name is Munth Breed Singh. We are here to introduce a brand new series on our podcast called 12 Guroos from 1469 to Infinity. And with me, for this podcast series is going to be in the Breed Singh. In the Breed Singh, thank you for being on this podcast. Thank you for doing this series with us. - Thank you, Jigar Kalsal, or Jigikifate. - So in the pre-before we get into this new podcast and explain what it is and what we're doing here. I want all the listeners to get to know you. How long you've been with Thickree, a little bit about your background and then we'll get into the podcast. - Sure, not a problem, thanks Munth. So I think we've done a podcast in the past before as well. But for those that are regular listeners, maybe you've heard of me before. But my name is Indipreed Singh. I live here in the Boston area. I've been in the United States for probably 30 plus years. Prior to that, I actually grew up in Japan as well. So we're six from Japan kind of. I spent some time in India, of course, boarding school. Also, when I was a little kid, five years in Canada. So been around the world a little bit, but my sixth background is coming from the family. And I really started getting more aware of myself, my sick key, my guru, and our community, probably during my college years when I came to the States. Professionally, my background is, I used to always say, "I'm a security or a networking guy, "but nowadays, I'm the classic IT type of guy. "A lot of different areas in the IT world and the high tech world. "And I have wife and two young daughters. "We're all here in Boston. "My parents are here as well. "I have siblings all across the world." So that's kind of my professional. So from sick-free, believe it or not, I've been with sick-free since almost the beginning. So probably I remember my first SEVA, it's sick-free, doing this kind of similar thing of sharing my passion, learning and sharing, it's sick-free passion. It was probably 2004, 2005. And I'm pretty much a permanent fixture at our flagship program, Civic, where I facilitate the CQ 101 course, which includes basically a full interpretation in Santiago, Lása, Quirar. So I've been doing that for many years. I'm obviously on the board of directors, so involved with the mission and vision, and ensuring that we have the right resources and capacity to further our mission. So yeah, and then, and I was asked to do this with you. I'm really on the one hand very excited, but also a little nervous because I'm by no means any kind of expert in this subject matter in history. It's more of just the sharing of my passion and my meager understanding of this. So I'm still excited to be here. So thanks a lot for doing this, Moonproof. - Yeah, for sure. Hey, you're my expert. It's all good with me. So 12 gurus, 1469, so Infinity, give us a little bit of background on like, so, to research into two, we wanna talk about the 12 gurus, why we wanna do it now, what is it kind of, also the importance of history and the life of a sick, to talk about that a little, please. - Okay, yeah, that's good. And probably some of your listeners are wondering why is it titled the 12 gurus? On a personal level, and my understanding, you will have a lot of academic interpretations of this, but my personal level and feeling is there's only one guru. But the guru takes many different forms. The guru starts with the Shabbat guru and then the forms of Guru Nanak all the way to Guru Gobind Singh, the 10 forms. And everyone knows, probably growing up, that we get taught in the culture schools, there are 11 gurus, there's the 10 gurus and then the Guru Ganesha. And what gets forgotten in a more holistic view is the Guru Kasa Pant. So the doubles, over the day of Guru Granth and Guru Pant is often forgotten. And that's where we get really the number 12, which is Guru Nanak, the Guru Gobind Singh Ji, which is 10 persona gurus, then the Guru Granth Singh, which as I said, sometimes 10, 11, and the 12 being Guru Kasa Pant. So we're gonna go through these 12 different forms of the guru from primary, more of the historical perspective. And last year we had this series on the 52 weeks so on a weekly basis, delving into the Shabad Guru, the Bani. So as a continuation of that holistic view of Sikhi, the what we understand, and sometimes we say and within the Sikhi Research Institute, we call it the Gurma framework. It's Bani, which is the foundation, the scriptural tradition, Tawarik or itehath, which is the history. And then who knows, maybe next year we'll do a podcast series on that, our discipline, or our contemporary understanding of the culmination of Bani and history. The history here is more focused on the Guru history. There is from, and you cannot talk about Sikhi's history in my opinion, without having some kind of interplay with the Guru Granth Singh and the divine revelation that has been given to us. And even that has, some indication to us is what's the importance of history. And there's a well-known Gurbani took that we quote a lot. And many others, many learned Sikhi will also quote that. It's Babaniya, Kahaniya, Put-Suput-Karine. What is saying, the Kahaniya, the stories, right? So stories of our Bavis, of our ancestors, right? And in this context, it's all talking about the Gurus. So the stories of the Gurus, their life history, would transform us from regular children into what's called Prajani, into well-established, well-developed children. And that's really the purpose of stories in our life as well. I mean, there are, we learn history in school, we learn about the history of our families, where our families came from. And it's always the elders are sharing with us their experiences or the experiences of what their ancestors experience. So in the context of Guru Granthab, is in addition to the divine revelation, when that divine revelation got transformed into an actual life in the form of the Gurus, at the model of what that, what that Bani has been transformed into reality, something that we can see, witness here, model, and therefore mimic and use in our own lives as well. So that's where the importance of history is, that it actually brings, solidifies the, sometimes very difficult to understand, esoteric experiences as, as revealed in the divine poetry of Guru Granthab. It actually brings, ah, that message of the Guru Granthab is modeled as shown by this Guru doing XYZ here and that Guru doing ABC, type of stories. Another thing to note, Professor Puran Singh says, in a particular quote, he says, the history of the six is still a closed book. It's really not been written. The thick history that has been passed on from generation to generation is what he calls bosom to bosom. Or in Punjabi, we might say, Sina Bathina, so, you know, our grandmas, our grandpas, our aunts who, in back in the day, we're telling us stories before we go to bed. And now in this day and age, what are excellent Catholic school teachers all across the world are teaching the kids. That's where, whether it's an academic rendition of thick history or it's their interpretation or their PR that's been put into it, but they explain the stories. That's what keeps the connection of the community and the kids alive. So, I think that covers what are the 12, what is really this, and the last part about infinity, 1469, obviously, Guru Nanak's birth. So, infinity is the history of the six continues to be written. The Guru's house upon the Guru Granthab are the eternal gurus, eternal guru. So, there is no, the chapter,
After six histories started with Guru Nanak and continues. That's essentially the context of how we're going to present the 12 forms of the Guru's. Great, great. So before we get started, let's also talk a little bit about just the sources where we're getting this information. Just in case anyone listening wants to go read it, wants to go double check our work, just so they have a place where they could go in reference. So maybe you could just name some sources of where we're getting this information to share with everybody. Okay, that's a very, I mean, just the sources of information for six history could be a whole series of podcasts and multiple hours. But let me be very brief. So I'll make it personal for myself. For me, the first time I can remember being interested in thick history and I also kind of alluded to it. It was stories from my grandma, my Naniji for sure. And then, I had mentioned to you that I actually did spend some time in India in kind of my years of where I would be potentially learning. So I still remember it this day and I remember these books because I've seen them actually in some of the Kasa schools 30 years later, not more than 30 years later, 40 plus years later. There's a series of books on the thick gurus from the Hemkun Press. That was what was taught in Guru-Hakrishan public school back then. So what is the authorship, who is the author of that? I don't know, but that's for me where my initial long-term memory or sources of where the sick history came from. However, in the context of generally, now we bring it back to more a research institute and any serious practitioners of or students of sick history have to start with the various Janamsakis. There's also another genre called the Prakash, so you may be here a Pantrakash, Suraj Prakash. The Janamsakis authorship is all over the place, maybe not as popular as many people may have heard, but the Pantrakash, so you could have Pantrakash, so the Rattansing Pambu. Suraj Prakash is Mahakavisant Toksing. Those are, I would say, 17th or 18th century, renditions of sick history for the first time being put into pen and paper. There's a much broader level, so it's post-guru time period. There's also a different schools of sick history that come from what we may have heard of. So, a Janamsakis are focused on Guru Nanak, but then there's another genre of Sakis, Parthi, and Akis. There's all this different amount of text that we have available to us. I am not a scholar of that, as I've said, because language is very difficult. Primary, the Janamsakis are more Punjabi. The Prakash series and others are in Brij Pasha. But where I have been able to delve deeper and what we also share with the Sikhs Institute are more English authors, authors that write in English. People that many, many have heard of probably is Jig Jit Singh, Pajya Singh, Gunjah Singh, Punjabi authors like Pai Viy Singh. But Professor Puran Singh has written in both Punjabi and English, and there are probably many, many more. And the sources of Sikh history, material can fill up probably half a library now. Now, so there's no way to really go to one recommended source. These are some of the names that I've thrown out. There are many different versions of their books, and that's probably many other authors as well. I have to give a shout out to my good colleague and our CEO of our organization, Indikor. She has started rendering Sikh history in the form of her series of Journey with the Gurus, which are reinterpretations of excellent work from Pai Viy Singh in the Nanakshamatkar series. So that is now also, I've actually read them, so I use some of those stories when I share episodes of Sikh history as well. So that's where I'm getting it from. No, great. Thanks for sharing that. And so yeah, let's start off with Guru Nanak. Please delve into this. Let everyone know about the Guru Nanak and a little bit of history, a little bit of body, I see from the notes here. So yeah, please begin. Right. So yeah, one on another source that I'm going to use as we go through the 12 months birth of delving into Sikh history is there are two well-known six that are merged together in a little booklet called The Gross of Responsibility in Sikhism. This is a small booklet written by Professor Tejasing and just as a reminder, on our Facebook feeds, we're doing Thursday thoughts with Principal Tejasing. Sometimes on Professor Tejasing, sometimes on Principal Tejasing. So he's written this book and it's about the 10 gurus in which the title of each of those chapters has something to do with things like humility, submission, dignity, service, self-sacrifice, justice, compassion, clarity, composure and courage. So the very very specific terms, these terms come from a piece written by another, a Sikh from the time of Guru Nanak, who many people maybe know, don't know his name was by Nanla. So he has written a piece called the Ganinama in which he goes and goes through the attributes or the description of all of the 10 gurus. Here's a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh, right? And even though all the gurus have all these attributes, the highlight of the attributes of the gurus is done in such a way. So there are 10 core values starting with humility and being with courage. And Guru Nanak for some reason, and we can maybe dwell on that, he tags with Guru Nanak the value system or the virtue of humility. And then it progresses on. So someone who is humble and this is how Professor Tejasing renders it, then they only know what is the method of submission. And someone who knows how to submit has a good understanding of equality, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that's how it goes along. So Guru Nanak, and how are we used to think, how or why? I mean, I'm not maybe not all, but I know many stories of Guru Nanak, where was the humility of Guru Nanak showing? And you know, recently it struck me. And I think, you were talking a little earlier about ikonkar, where ikonkar is coming from. And that was Guru Nanak's way to present to the humanity what is the divine. And you can, there's these little videos online on Facebook, on your feed you might see where someone gets like, it's a picture of a person on like a street and then Guru Maths pushes it all the way out that you're in a satellite view, then the satellite view changes to like looking at that earth from a different planet than from a different solar system and then going way beyond into universes. And we're part, we're little speck or dot within the Milky Way, you know, that whole story or the series, if you haven't seen it. I'm sure many will, you Google it and you'll be able to see of how small we are, how small the humans are. So I think Guru Nanak in presenting this divine, integrative force that's not like a, can even be described as like a bod in heaven or a, you know, like an idol or a multi of some kind. And the, the, the Vigru that is beyond description that is only realized by virtues or not of norm, that's Guru Nanak's bringing to the humanity this type of description of Ikon Kar is what makes him really the essence of humility knows how to, how to both, I think And yes, realistically explain humility and also live a life.
of humility as well. So now what are some examples of that? So as divine revelation is exactly that. And there's a specific episode that many have probably heard as they've been growing up that Grinanik was in his late 20s, almost almost their years old, once and in this town called Sultan Pralovi, one fine day on the bank of the river when he goes every morning to take his bath, and he does not return for three days. So he doesn't return for three days. And this is where I'll introduce two of very important people in his life. He had so many people that he interacted with and interface with, but the story goes that the two people who never doubted that he was gone. Many people thought, oh, he drowned, he's dead. He's never coming back. Some people that didn't doubt it were one his companion, Pai Madhanaji. And second, his sister, Bebe Nanki. But they kept hope, they kept waiting for, and on the third day when he returns, there was obviously joy and jubilation, his family, and everyone in the town, the choices. And that is what is generally accepted in six circles as the time frame when he really started on his mission and started spreading the message. The story goes, of course, that he would repeat a term or a phrase called Nako Hindu Namusumman. And many people didn't understand it. And that's when he then expanded through his great journeys that he went across all the breadth top and bottom of the South Asian continent all the way into the Middle East and modern research is saying even beyond that, maybe even hit the edge of Europe as well. So that happened in a place which is called Sultan for Lothi, where that revelation actually began and it happened. Now, one thing as we're going to present all the different gurus, I do want to share that everything that we know about or have heard and even our little study about Guru Nanak or any of the gurus, we will see, always had some sort of impact on the religious elite of that time as well as the political elite of the time. Probably even the economic elite, I mean, which in those days was all mixed. The political and religious powers of that time were always conniving with each other for what to get power over and oppressed. And Guru Nanak's even non-Shalana mundane type of actions were always, you know, didn't build well with those that were in the elite. And the very first example, so I spoke about what is in his 30s, but there are many major, major episodes of his life when he was a young child as well. And the very first so-called so-to-speak altercation with religious elite was everyone knows as the Jnouwali Saki, so the rejection of the Jnouw. Should we spend a little bit time on that one? Because that's pretty much like every six history book or every story of Guru Nanak covers that. As much as we should go into that a little bit. - Yeah, yeah, I wanna talk about it because people think when I used to hear the story when I was little and grew up in a thick household, it didn't mean that much to me. But back in the day, this was a big ceremony and Guru Nanak rejecting it was a big deal. And so it took a lot. So yeah, I think we should definitely, please, let's definitely talk about that a little. Right, right. I mean, obviously speaking about Guru Nanak, I mean, he was no ordinary being. He was divine being bestowed with the realization of the divine joke, right? The divine light right from the beginning. So, books will tell you all he was very thoughtful, always kind of a roof and prayer and this and that. But imagine the ceremony is being, the picture of the ceremony is being painted in front of you. There's a lot of hustle bustle going on in the house when a ceremony like that happened. There's a feast and matayya are being made. I'm taking a lot of this from the journey of the Guru's book as well. And by the way, in all of this, when a serious funded Tadial is reciting the Shastras and saying, "I was time to put it on." How does the blue, he says, "Well, wait, "before you put it on." Now imagine in any kind of even like a non-car ceremony in our Guru's Warras or any ceremony that's happening, everything's going, people are like, "Nane, we shouldn't disturb the flow. "Let it just go smoothly." You have no problem just disrupting the whole ceremony. It says, "Why don't you just explain to me what's going on?" And if it makes sense, yeah, then let's proceed. So a young boy telling a well-established funded saying, "It just explained to me." And then the typical scenario where the funded gets frustrated at his series of questioning, essentially over here he's doing two things. Number one, he is bringing to life the message of the Guru Vansab in which it's a very often quoted message, "Jaloh S.E.V. Jitme Piyara V.Sray." So let's burn away those rituals in which love for the divine is not being emphasized upon. Or you're forgetting that the love for the divine. Because his logic there was that this thread is not going to instill in me virtuous qualities. My actions are what causes me to be the virtuous person or not a virtuous person, this thread by itself. You know, Jalvi's on that can burn. When it gets bad, you have to put it on a new one, but it doesn't really change me as an individual. And he was basically condemning thoughtless rituals. And on the second hand, because the Jineo what it represented was a caste hierarchy. He was rejecting any type of forced upon a hierarchy, which was the fundamental foundation of the Brahmin and the forecasts were. So it's a direct rejection of the religious authority at the same time. I think the rituals in itself, that's a standard debate that goes on in all camps that I've been as a ritual to do X or Z. But the thoughtlessness is where he was again. So again, there was a Gurbani that brought to life and it's been written like he said, in all six households, there's the Neuvali Sakees. It's really, really kind of the foundation of, then the next story is along the way, really kind of expose more of that style of how Guru Nanak acted and how his message got across. I don't wanna tell you one more Sakees, which gets completely, the idea, what was the lesson behind the story gets completely lost in translation. It's a very famous Sakees. We even have a Gurdwara that commemorates it and this is the Sakees or the story of Panjasak. So in a region in Pakistan today, it's the Western Punjab called Hassan Abdal. There's a Gurdwara called Panjasak and everyone knows that there's a rock and supposedly there's an imprint of the hand of Guru Nanak there. So very, very popular story told to many, many kids and I actually made it a point to tell this story in a very, kind of amusing manner to my kids in their early years. But what I didn't emphasize the rock itself, but here's what the story is. And let me spend like two, three minutes on it. So it happens to be that Panwar Dhanaji and Guru Nanak have been traveling. And Panwar Dhanaji and the Jannam Sakees is always kind of the one who is the, kind of initiates the whole conversation. It says, Guruji, I'm really thirsty. Guruji says, all right, go up and go and drink some water from that place up on top of the hill. He goes there and there happens to be a well-known Muslim saint, well-known Muslim holy man from those days called Walikandari. So Walikandari is kind of popular in that area by Madhana Jigohs and wants some water to drink and Walikandari refuses.
and pretty perturbed by Mandanaji goes back to Granana and says he didn't, he didn't let me drink any water. He says go back again and ask him nicely. He goes back and let me condali, you know, just refuses to allow water to be given. And if you're, if your master is so great, referring to Granana, you know, let him get the water for you without having to disturb this. One thing, let's one other, the story, the details don't matter, but the point is that at the end, eventually water was given freely, right? Not only to Pai Madana, but it turns out that holy condali was refusing to share water with the villagers down below, which is also, he was on top of the hill and Bunga said if you go today also, it's quite a little hilly area and now there's free water flowing in the stream. Now, they're miracles associated, miracle definitions or descriptions are miracles associated, but the point of the matter, which I tell the kid, is this was the first story that you can relate to, which is a challenge or a challenge of authority that controls our water rights. So water happened to be, and in every sixth Guru Vaya, you go to water has a very, and we'll talk more about it in the subsequent gurus, has a very central place in, in sick, is something that was denied to people. Granana over here is challenging any kind of denial of water, which is a natural resources that should have full access to people. We should even find this in our later years as the kids grew up with the agitation that is still happening in Punjab regarding our river rights as well. It's all, from my perspective, that's the value of the Saki there. It gives us a model by which we must continue to struggle to ensure equal water rights to all. And sure enough, when I asked my daughter, what was the lesson of that Saki says we should share with others. So it's just as simple as that in the beginning should now get refined in our agitation for water rights for all should continue. That's the value of sick history, that's the value of Guru Nanak's story in this context. That's a great lesson in my 36 years. I've never thought of it like water rights until right now. So that's a great point you make. Let's also wanted to talk about, because you know sometimes I Google Guru Nanak in different gurus just to see what's going on, what are people writing about him. Maybe you can talk a little bit about Isodachi because they were pretty famous. I've seen this on the internet, I don't know how true it is, but Guru Nanak was the second most traveled man in the world by foot. But I know Isodachi is he traveled all sorts of places. In school you just learn open job and what his focus on now, but he actually traveled to many many places. So maybe we could talk about that for a couple of minutes. Yeah, absolutely. So where he traveled is pretty phenomenal and amazing. I mean obviously in this day and age, you know, we basically because of air travel things are a completely different context. But back in those days where of course there were ships, there were horse, you know other other means of transportation, but primarily it was all on foot. And so Guru Nanak is in as we, for those who know kind of the map of the South Asian continent, he's up there in the North in Punjab. And we know for a fact that he went all the way down to in those days was called Salon, which now is Sri Lanka, right? A very, so one thing which you should read about Guru Nanak wherever he went, he'd left, he didn't force any conversion, but it is well established that people, whatever their faith background would have been, whether it's Hindu or Muslim or even other, they got completely transformed and they they became his disciples. And so Sri Lanka, the king of that region definitely became his disciple. Then all the way and now you're looking at East, so Assam would be pretty much all the way East, even towards what modern day Bangladesh, Burma, you know the many six diaspora six reside there today as well. And there are places that commemorate the the visits of Guru Nanak over there. Then in the North it is well established that he was basically what is in Tibet today. So in North all the way in Tibet and also the very famous Gurbani section of Gurbani in Raghra, Mkali called Sid Goshd was his encounter with the Sidh Dhaal, the Sid Yogis and that was way up in the mountain. So again North in the Himalayas. Now on the west side we know now by the way there's academic historians what I call and then you know our six historians which begins with Bighurdasi have reference to his visits to Mehta in Saudi Arabia. Some modern day research is also establishing his his visit in up to Turkey and maybe even beyond. Istanbul's Constantinople was the well-known kind of bridge point between the eastern and east between the east and west. So there's some evidence that modern day some people are pointing towards Constantinople. But before at least on the Bighurdasi's Vada and his first Vada is all about Guru Nanak has reference to him being in Mkali and Baghdad as well which is Baghdad. So that's the breath and death. But with an impact he had, Munpreet is pretty phenomenal and I learned this many years ago when someone I'm kind of jumping to 1699 Guru Groven Singh Ji's time frame but we all know the Banshbhari and only one of the Banshbhari happened to be from Punjab. The rest of the Banshbhari were from places in South Asia that Guru Groven Singh Ji never traveled but Guru Nanak's did travel. And when the summons came that there's going to be a large gathering at an ampursab and it came in the name of Guru Nanak the devotees who had established themselves as six of the Guru they saw in Guru Groven Singh Ji Guru Nanak. It was the one who summoning them. Not Guru Groven Singh Ji as a different being. It was the one jolt of all of the Guru's. So my point is the impact for 240 years later, approximately, they still, the, you know, Guru Nanak's six who are not different than Guru Groven Singh Ji's six. Right? What has been imposed on us unfortunately for, I don't know if it's on purpose or at least from the academic view and you know without doing the proper context we get taught in our kalsa schools is that oh Guru Nanak was the peaceful, peaceful Guru. You know, after the Shahidi of Guru Agents stop then the six transform their Guru's became militant and Guru Groven Singh Ji was the militant Guru which is a huge fallacy both from if you look at the historical, you know, development. This is the growth of responsibility in Sikhism that as they have been talking about as well as direct injunction from Guru Nanak which denotes that Jyot Oha Jyugutsahi Sahakaya Pair Palatier. This is in the Varan Ram Kali by Sat Tanbal one from the Guru Gran Sab describing, you know, the the extension of each Guru up to Guru Agents Sahib saying that what happens with the Guru's was that the divine light the Jyot and the Jyuguts, the methodology, the way in which they live happens to be the same. Jyot Oha Jyugutsahi and what really only changes Sikh Kaya, Kaya is another term for body or form. Pair Palatier the form is the only thing that changes. So the breath and with of Guru Nanak's journey is called Udassis which are like odises was huge but even more was his impact on the people that he encountered on the way there. And Guru Nanak was great when he when he actually visited these places so can you imagine walking all over the place you enter a village and it is said that Guru Nanak used to actually on purpose initiate conversation without him actually
initiating conversation. What I mean to say is there's a I had read I think it was in the professor they just sings books again that he would on purpose wear a leather apron. He would carry Muslim prayer carpet and you know the little lota that the yogis carry and have different kind of costumes on and you know back in the day imagine walking in Pavilion and they see this person along with his companion Madonna and the first thing that would come out of someone's mouth is who are you now Grinana would then smile sit down and sit down let me come to who I am and and share with them whether in song whether through keepin or whether through discourse and start explaining you know beginning with the icconkar and what why we are all on this earth so so Grinana going and traveling so much again I can't vouch for the second most travel man in the world or but in the context of the guru I can tell you Grinana was the most travel and believe it or not when we hit the sixth guru Hargobinji was the second most traveled at least most constant traveling going on with Guru Hargobinji so this was his Odasi now the biggest you know question for both I think Eastern scholars and even Western scholars is Guru Nanak is traveling all of these places how did he communicate with people I mean obviously he grew up in the Punjab area we all know that over there language was was very fluid because Punjabi all of the different dialects every 25 miles the dialects are changing but there was also multiple languages itself obviously beginning with Persian and Arabic of the region but when you went down to Sri Lanka what language to be speak when he was in Tibet or when when he was in Maka or Assam all the languages of that is the mystery that scholars have not been able to really nail through documentary evidence etc. So these are things I want to present that there's obviously documents and you know readings and books that refer to Guru Nanak's experiences and how he and where all he traveled etc. but for me personally so this is my own personal I am a firm believer I have the faith that the gurus were Sarabukhalasamah they were basically masters of all arts and I see no issue with Guru Nanak knowing all these different languages whether he was bestowed on it from because of it became being divine or whether he was able to learn them during his journey but one of the most ways I present that you know dilemma to academic scholars really is well he did speak the one language that all peoples regardless of region regardless of country regardless of background they know and that was the language of music it is well known and sick call us this are sick understanding our sick belief system that when Guru Nanak wanted to share a message there was a divine revelation that that was happening so there was a direct connection with the Ikonkar and the divine and when that would happen furthermore he would basically point to Madhana who was always his companion along the way and say Madhanya the Bob chair Baniya so start start the Robob start the music the the Bani the revelation is coming and many Bontio Akitanya you know they basically presented this way as well that you know what when Guru Bani came it actually came in rock it came in in a musical rendition and then was shared with the people so and that language by using explains it in Punjabi very well I was reading a while ago by using Guru Nanak Chamatkar and I kid you not he's spending two to three pages on explaining the environment and the kind of music that Guru Nanak was was sharing in one in one of the Sakis so so the emphasis on Guru Nanak being able to transcend all languages and connect with people to music is what made again Guru Nanak's travel so easy to do because he was able to communicate with the people where we went in their language starting with the language music but also also the other languages that when you you can um it was a Madonna you're saying was with them I've heard I think Fygozad mentions Madonna too but I know in popular Punjabi music and even stories now Balai has mentioned so where did Balai come from and what's up with him pretty much yeah that's a very interesting one it's I so there's I'm going to I'm going to share with you facts that I know that I read and then a little bit of opinion as well so the fact of the matter is this whole all of Guru Nanak stories Guru Nanak's are from the genre of literature called Genam Sakis right so Genam Sakis as I said they're varied authors of who are the ones who wrote the Genam Sakis but from sick perspective the history first first kind of a text that gets a lot more weight than than any others is by good it's obviously first Guru Granza but then by Guru Das because Guru Granza also is not a book of history is not a book of stories but has references to historical events by Guru Das Yis Vana in Punjabi actually have our have multiple porties multiple bars dedicated to historical events and done in a in a very also divine poetic way so you are right in that there is the famous line it says Iqq Babaa Akal Rup duja Rababi Maradana there's no mention of tija you know Bala or anything like that that doesn't exist there's also a specific I don't know if it's a 40 or a var of Pagodasi in which the whole paragraph is just a mention of names of individuals that were well known and during the time of Guru Nanak and the mention of Bala does not exist in that so that's on Pagodas Yis Vana there's no evidence and then we come to the Genam Sakis there's you know how should I explain it so so there are Genam Sakis is the genre but the authorship of it has been given particular titles and let me just give you an example there's one of the Genam Sakis which scholars believe to be the oldest written one so closer much closer to the times of the gurus it's probably the late 1500s is called Puratman Genam Sakis this Puratman Genam Sakis also has another nickname it's a very interesting story we don't need to get into all those details it's called velat velat foreign velat velat because it just so happens that when the British were you know kind of taking over one manuscript of this Genam Sakis he ended up in some British Museum in England and in only in the late 1800s so around 1880 after a request and I don't know if there was a protest but definitely with lots of demand that manuscript was returned and came back to Punjab so that is the Puratman Genam Sakis and that is what our Sikh historians modern day historians have kind of evaluated as you know pretty authentic so closer because it's the oldest one then there's another set of Genam Sakis and other genres of them Sakis that come during the time frame after Guru Ajn Sava so you will get into it but Guru Ajn Sava's brother was Prithichand Prithichand Sana was Mehirban and so the Mehirban lineage also because they still wanted to accept that Guru Nanak was their you know their problem the lineage of the gurus they wrote a
extensively genomsakis and life stories of Guru Nanak. So very interesting, another corpus of the set of genomsakis. This, there is only one genomsakis, which is called Balehwali genomsakis, bai Balaji genomsakis. And in all of-- what I meant to say, in the Bratun genomsakis, in all of the Merban genomsakis, there is no mention of Bala. But if some-- it's what happens. It seems like it's the time frame what scholars say is a post-Guru Hargobinsa period that a Bala-Balaji genomsakis shows up. And in that, Bala is also presented in some of the stories. Again, lots of work has gotten into this. There are-- the McLeodian School has done a lot of research on the Jamsakhi tradition, the quote unquote, "antim of the Laudian School" has also done it. The Panthik-- Panthik-Minded, they're modern. They, like, literally contemporary, I think, PhD students have been working on that as well. So without going into all the details, all I know from a factual perspective is that there is one genomsakis called Balehwali genomsakis where it shows up. Now, the question, really, I think you're asking is, huh, if that's the case, I'm perfectly fine with having that diversity of different types of genomsakis. But why is Bala genomsakhi becoming-- or Bala being also part of the stories of Guru Nanai becoming so popular, even in our Kalsa schools? I just had a discussion. One Kalsa school recently that they're teaching who are the best friends of Guru Nanak by Maldana and by Bala is their correct answer, like on a Guru Nanak trivia question. So why is Bala becoming so popular? I mean, do you have a point of view on that? One truth. I don't, other than he's mentioned in some Punjabi singers songs when they talk about Guru Nanai. Well, I didn't know he was mentioned in Punjabi singers songs. That's interesting. But again, now I'm talking my opinion. I really haven't understood it. Except the only thing that I can deduce is-- so in my personal belief, by Madanaji was a sick, whether whatever his background was. But his background was Muslim. So by Madanaji was from the Muslim faith. And Bala happens to be in the Bala legends, like in all stories presented happens to be from the Hindu faith. So it's a potential, again, opinion, that maybe someone wasn't happy that a Muslim was like the best friend of Guru Nanak. And we got to kind of balance this out. That's as far as I'll go with that question. But at least I gave a little bit of fact for AIDS that there are different kinds of genomes, like keys. And there's only one out of the large corpus of genomes, like keys which he mentioned in Bala. There are other texts after that, also late 19th century that then starts mentioning Bala a lot more. But the original origin of it comes from one specific genome of key. Now I appreciate that. Thanks for diving into that. And so I know we're running out of time. But many of the gurus I think may be all of them, but I'm sure I might not be right. But they founded cities and Guru Nanak founded Kuttatpur. What's the significance of that? Why did he want to find a different place and establish his base there? OK. Yeah. So this theme will continue with all the gurus. But I want to present one thing that should be clear. And for the six, for us, the guru was not a mere spiritualist or religious personality. The guru was holistic. So one thing that Guru Nanak did, and all the gurus, they actually redefined what religion is. And what religion is for the sick is not. So what rituals were-- the denial ritual and all the other throwing of the water for Guru Nanak was not-- that's not religion. Religion is actually for Guru Nanak both religion or political. It was the combining of both just like Jyot and Jyugat. Divine light is what inspires the action and the methodology. Any spirituality within must define also your actions or your political establishment. Now political and religion put together exudes more social structures, economic structures, any kind of knowledge structures of that time. So after Guru Nanak establishes Kuttatpur, after all of his four Ubasis, it was multiple, multiple years. And in order to understand why Kuttatpur was established, we also have to have a small episode of why Guru Nanak went on the Ubasis. And that answer comes to us also from Gurbani, from the Siddh Gosh, where the Siddhas and the what-- why are you traveling around? And his purpose of traveling around is very clear. He answers, "I'm in search of the Gurmokhas, of those that are Guru-oriented and Guru-inspired." So he goes and he obviously converts, not by force, but by his interactions, those, and inspires others to become Gurmokhas at the time. And then when he comes back, he settles in Kuttatpur. And he settles as a farmer. So this whole idea of a spiritualist is like an ascetic goes into the jungles and becomes one quote unquote, or finds why Guru quote unquote, which Bruce rejected this idea of being a recluse or being ascetic. He also rejected the idea of just being economically well established, socially well established, and not having any sense of humility or sava in the clean. So this whole idea of the balance of life, he actually practices that. And he builds a community around it. And it actually does not abide by the rules or laws of anything around it. So my point in what I'm trying to say is our gurus were not only kind of going against the religious structures of the time. There are also going against the political structures of the time. Like what profit, what religious leader has a need to establish a city? We'll see in the subsequent gurus that cities were established from scratch. Punjab today has cities that never existed before the gurus came to Punjab. And let me tell you about another kind of myth that I want to break. It kind of gets into the second guru, but it's worth noting. So the bilanagji-- and this Saki is very well known-- the first time-- not the first time, but the time when he leaves all and wants to go and see Guru Nanak was at time frame that Guru Nanak was now residing in Kathakur. And he-- bilanagji is on his horse. He's trotting away towards the direction of Kathakur. And he sees an old man along the way. And he says, can you please point me in the direction of where Guru Nanak lives? And the old man says, let me take you there. And while bilanagji is on his horse, this old man walks with the horse and takes him to a house and ties the horse and then disappears. And bilanagji goes in, lo and behold, he sees that the old man who walked him to this house happens to be Guru Nanak. So what's the lesson of that story? Many years ago, we all collected together. The lesson of that story was that Guru Nanak is not the Guru Nanak that we see in the pictures, in the photographs, or in the paintings drawn today, where he's nice and plump. There's a halo around him. He has a malign in his hand and loose clothing, just like a typical Indian picture of a holy man. Guru Nanak was a farmer. So bilanagji, obviously Guru Nanak is defined. Obviously, Guru Nanak has an aura about him. But when the story is rendered about bilanagji's meeting Guru Nanak, Guru Nanak is seen as a farmer which he was. And someone who travels, probably the second most travel man in the world, cannot be as plump as shown in the paintings. So this image that we have painted of Guru Nanak as being like that is really--
needs to be re-structured in our minds. Understanding that he founded a city, in the city were, you know, community that the fruition of the Sangat idea begins over there. Everything is centered around Gurbani, around Iconkar, sharing of, you know, and earning an honest living and sharing all of those institutions, the institution of Lunger, the institution of study, the institution of economic prosperity, the institution of, you know, basically Medipidi, religion of political, begins with Guru Nanak and it just gets developed and transformed into the 24-year journey of the Ten Guru's. So, yeah, establishing of Katharpur is a model for which then the next subsequent Guru's all continued to establish cities along the years as well. A very important point, not to be forgotten, and each episode we do, please do remind me of which city was, is worth highlighting or which Guru established and was the significance. - Great, great, not a problem in the brief. I think it's been a great podcast learning about Guru Nanak. I learned a lot as I do on every podcast. I also wanna let everybody know, if there is something that you wanna ask us, please, you know, you can write to us at
[email protected]. If there's a question that you want on the podcast, and hopefully we'll answer that in the next podcast before we get into the second Guru, and we'll take their questions or comments or any feedback or something that we missed or we misspoke somewhere. So please definitely let us know. You can go to
[email protected] on the podcast notes. I'll have my Twitter handle on there, so you could ask me directly. I also have Indipreeze Twitter handle on there, so you could ask him directly to. And if we have any questions, we'll definitely answer them in the next podcast. So Indipreeze, before I let you go, any final thoughts on Guru Nanak before we end the podcast? - Well, yeah, I do have to say, for all your listeners, I'm pretty sure, neither me nor anyone can do Guru Nanak justice. There can be walls and walls of bookcases written about Guru Nanak. And I don't say this to be preachy or anything like that, but my buzzwords, my older generation used to tell me that the only way to get to know Guru Nanak at a minimum is to talk to him through Jav Jisab. So doing Jav Jisab every day is as if you're speaking with Guru Nanak and getting to know Guru Nanak. So that's only my message to everyone. I try to do that, so I, because knowing Guru Nanak is not an academic study, is I guess what I'm trying to say. When knowing Guru Nanak is a study of the heart, is a connection of the heart, is a matter of love. So, and studying, reading, reciting or listening to Jav Jisab is the best way to at least begin to start to know Guru Nanak. So that's the one message I'll leave everyone with of getting Guru Nanak. And let's all try to connect with the Ikon card that he revealed to us in Jav Jisab. - And the pretty funny thing is, my grandparents had the same thing for me. - Exactly. - I tell you that's our culture. - It totally is. And the brief thanks for being on the podcast. I learned so much. I look forward to the next one. Again, appreciate your time. Thank you. - Yeah, thank you very much, Munthi. - Why do you call us all, why do you call us all? - Thank you, bye.
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