EP61: The Human Cost: A Participant's Story

We'd like to begin this podcast by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today, the Wajakar, Nongar people, and pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging. This episode of Talking Catch Potatoes is brought to you by Henry Houndware, the brand that all the best dress hounds are wearing, to find yours, go to henryhoundware.com.au. Maleficent we're back again. Yeah. (Laughter) Yeah, you know, yeah, is it because we're 61? Is that what it is? Yes, I really took it. Because we're in our 60s. Yeah, we're in our 60s listeners. Talking Catch Potatoes episode 61. We don't want to be here. We've said it before I say it again. The whole purpose of this podcast is to make it redundant because it's not necessary. But while it is, we hope to entertain, inform and inspire. Male. Yes. And the way you're performing or inspiring things have been happening lately. Well, nothing really, to be honest. (Laughter) You can't accept that. I'm sorry. Okay. So Matthew, we spoke a couple of episodes ago about the review that the government was doing. Yeah, you mentioned it. It was in the dead of political night. Yeah, it was on the 30th of December. The stuff the government wants you to know about. They don't. They don't put it in the cover of New Year's Eve. Exactly. So it's the independent review into financial sustainability and governance of racing and wagering Western Australia. So I just wanted to read a little bit from the paper that has now been posted on the website, regarding this. A focus of the review will be financial sustainability in the face of changing conditions, noting that key funding sources of ROW are currently include the Racing Bets Levy, Point of Consumption Tax and the Totalitizer Agency Board, which is a TAB revenue. Identify a broad and balanced set of revenue enhancing and cost management options to support ROW's long-term financial sustainability, review ROW's governance arrangements, legislative framework and regulatory compliance activities to ensure alignment with government and community expectations and access the potential impact of financial and governance changes on metropolitan and regional racing industries, associated events and the broader community. So revenue diversification, expenditure, balance sheet, governance, legislative and regulatory alignment and community and industry. So none of that. What do you notice missing? You know what I'd notice straight away, Mel, and maybe just for our listeners. It sounds like a lot of political government speak. Can you just put that in layman terms, what you've just said? Basically, they're looking at the balance sheet and the money and the way that flows and then how that is governed under current legislation, which is under current parliamentary rules and acts and how that's all put together. And what do you think? What do you think? To me, it's obvious what's missing and I'll get to that. But why do you think their focus is on the money? Because it's a commercial business that they're trying to keep going and substantiate perhaps because of what might come out of an inquiry. I don't know. Obviously, the inquiry into greyhound racing is only on greyhounds. This encompasses harness racing and horse autorebred racing. So it's got the three codes within it. But it says here, the following issues are not within the scope of this review, which is participant safety, including personal protective equipment for jockeys, workplace health and safety, which is an industry issue and currently being examined by WorkSafe, animal welfare, traceability and related reporting of injuries and deaths. Now, wouldn't you think though that the cost of animal welfare should be a part of a financial review? Yes. So I'm hoping that while it says traceability and related reporting, that physical presence of where greyhounds are and the physical injuries and that is being excluded and not the costs of possible changes to welfare schemes and things like that, as we've seen dropped recently. Yeah. I don't know. I think you're being really optimistic. I think, free the hands really, you take a very balanced viewpoint. You're on the side of facing it out, I guess. But if we look at how it's set up, Mel and the whole purpose of greyhound racing, I've said this before, the pros might talk about their purpose of the breed and how they love to run and all that stuff, yeah. But it's centered around money. It's centered around gambling revenues and it's centered. Yes, absolutely. I've put the question out before. If you really care about breed purpose and the dogs being able to express their innate desire to race, then go and set up a little private thingy, Magigi and stop gambling on it. It's about the gambling money. It's an amateur sport. Yeah, do it as an amateur sport as such. So it doesn't surprise me that they're not including welfare. They've seen dogs die over and over again, over 1500 dead in the last 10 years or so, multiple injuries. That doesn't shake him to go, "Oh shit, these poor creatures are getting hurt, we better step up the welfare." You pointed out not long ago that it's only about 1% of the whole budget, isn't it, Mel, that's put to welfare? Yes, for greyhound cars. For greyhound cars, yeah, 1%. So we can stop pretending that welfare is a real concern. They'll give lip service to it. But the real concern is can we make a buck out of this and can we get a shitload of gambling, revenue and gambling taxes? Yeah, page five is about all of the information that comes from the IER report, which we have repeatedly said for greyhounds is incorrect, the information is not accurate. 1.3 billion dollar economic impact. We know that the methodology used for that is wrong. And if you want to have a listen about that, Mel, because we did a deep dive with Sebastian, remember, especially the pro racers listening, go listen to episode 14, Sebastian Broadhurst did a deep economic review of this stuff and found out that that IER stuff is dodgy at best. Yep, yep. And that greyhound race meetings, that there was 61,528 attendees in a year. Greyhounds WA told the hearing in 2024 that they count the number of meals sold to work out attendance. And then gross it up. Talk about an agronistic, outdated methodology. Imagine any business that went, I don't know, we just figure if some, how many people buy a hot dog. That's how we work out how many people came. And that's a government department. Yeah, that's it. They sit within the government. I was stunned to find that out, Mel. I learned that from you that in 2026, a government-funded body doesn't keep records of attendances. It just says, ah, we sold this many chicken parmys. Exactly. And put that in a government document, expect people to give credible input. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry to laugh, but it's just outrageous. So the beauty of all this meal is that the inquiry is coming up, right? And what an inquiry does. It shines a light and it gets down into the weeds, doesn't it? So they're going to have to answer questions. They can't just come under this cloak of these obscure stats. And I'm looking forward to that. What do you reckon, Mel? You're hept up, aren't you? I am. I am. Because this is the first page of questions. Initial questions to consider. Financial sustainability. Identify a broad and balanced set of revenue enhancing and cost management options to support Ra was long-term financial sustainability. Yeah. So they're asking the person's making the submission to think about that. So it's obviously, it's going to be positive, isn't it? It's not a question about what are the issues. You're talking about confirmation bias. Yes. I'm saying we want you to find this out. Yes. Do a review and tell us how it'll work out. Yeah. Yeah. Not let's look at it. Let's review it and see what's wrong and let's make it better. But doesn't that make sense? Again, Mel, in the context of an inquiry coming up, in the context that the welfare and the death and the injury is off the charts, in the context of dropping this so-called review in the cloak of political darkness again, it's fairly obvious that the intent is not an objective exploration of needs. It's a knee-jerk reaction out of shit. We better make this look okay. Sorry, I promise this will be my last one. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. Community, industry and other. This is the first stop point. What is needed to stimulate greater prize money and higher turnover, increase the pool of trainers, owners, breeders and riders and improve employment in both metropolitan and country communities. Yeah. I'm trying to find a way to keep existing. Right? Yeah. Okay, I am not going to look at it anymore, but you shouldn't. You shouldn't. You shouldn't. I'm hept up. But if anybody wants to, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Check it out. Yeah, please have a read and submissions for that close zone. At the very least, Mel, it shows that their priorities are about money, not about the welfare of these beautiful creatures. And as we've said so often, that's okay, but be honest about it. Yeah. One thing we do have to talk about before we go is our foster of the fortnight. Okay, today we have got Sandy. Hi, Sandy. Five years old. Stranded at a driving. Yeah, very good. No cat homes, please. Sandy is a sweet, curious girl. Can you tell her colour by her name? Oh, Sandy, I'm going to go a sand coloured. TAN. Yeah. Sandy is a sweet, curious girl who is settling beautifully into family life. From the moment she wakes up, Sandy is ready to explore the world. Sounds like a gem. with her nose. She absolutely loves the sniffy morning walk and is quite the early riser. Yep. After breakfast and her walk she's more than happy to spend the rest of the day snoozing, rotating between comfy beds and quiet spots around the house. In the afternoon, Sandy's playful side comes out. She's quickly learning what toys are all about and enjoys carrying them around and having little bursts of fun once her energy returns. It's been a joy for her foster carer to watch her discover these new pleasures of pet life. Sandy gets along very well with her greyhound foster brother. They happily share beds, toys and water and often snooze side by side. Though Sandy is also confident enough to retreat to another room when she wants some alone time. She's currently comfortable being left for a few hours with her foster brother, but she hasn't yet been tested alone at home for longer periods. On walks, Sandy can get excited when she sees dogs of other breeds and sometimes gives a little growl. This behavior is already improving with exposure and guidance. She's a strong girl who walks nicely on lead at a brisk pace, so she will need a home that is confident in handling her enthusiasm and ensuring she doesn't search forward when something exciting catches her attention. Affectionate and people focused, Sandy adores pets and will happily gaze lovingly into the eyes of anyone giving her attention. So there you go. If you guys have any inquiries about Sandy, please reach out to greyhoundadoptions WA on social media or head to their website. Also, if we've inspired you to say get out of these beautiful creatures and they end up being a member of your family, we'd love to hear when we mel. Yes, absolutely. Just let us know. For sure, send us an email. Yeah, frankly, we're really interested to podcast at freethehoundstock.com.au. Send us an email and let us know. Mel, we have our next guest, Mark Layton. Now this is an interesting one, Mel. Mark is a former participant. That's right, racing participant. Yeah. So Mark's taken the time to come on the show and I really respect someone who's number one moved positions. Someone who's capable when they're educated and they understand something can shift their position, especially a man, because men are pretty bad at that. Anything, Mel? Women are a little more flexible. Yes, I think we have to be. You move around a bit. Men can be sticking the muds really. So Mark's shifted his position and I want to hear all about it. Yeah, it's going to be a really interesting chat, I think. Yeah. And have you met Mark? Yes, I have. All right, is he a nice fella? Yes. All right. I'll be the judge of that. All right, see you soon. All right, Mel, it's that time. We've got Mark Layton with us. Mark has two dogs, Oscar, who is obviously the greatest breed of them all. There's a rescue grant, a five-year-old ex-racer, and an Aussie Kelpy, Rosie's three years old, and Mark said Rosie's since she was a little puppy. There's lots to say about Mark, but I guess the interesting part for our purposes today is Mark actually comes from a family of trainers, breeders, owners, has been tending the dogs and been a part of that since he was a little kid, you know, eight, nine years old. Was a dog handler at one point as well. And the most extraordinary thing, Mel, I've discovered. And the thing you're most excited about. A little bit. Is that I just met Mark today and we went to the same primary school. It's incredible. We went to the same bloody primary school in Hobartville in Richmond. So that's a revelation how I am, Mark. Really good and thanks a lot for having me. Oh, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for coming. I think you're the first person I've ever met from Royal Primary School. You were definitely the first person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what the world is a small place and it works in mysterious ways. Mark was mentioning some of the tracks and some of the places, you know, Richmond and London area and Penrith. That's taken me way back to and I think we have some commonalities other than our primary school is I was brought up in a family that thought the dogs were a fun family event. And you have a story to tell which I'm really interested in maybe even closer than my story of, I guess, coming to a realization in some way that this isn't something you want to be a part of. And I really want to hear more about that. So thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Well, my story starts when I was around eight years old and my dad was one of his good friends decided that makes some money by owning and racing greyhounds. So our backyard back then looked a little bit like the scene from the castle where there's two dogs and some little timber huts, built and stuff. And so that's how dad started and pretty much he bought a dog from a friend who I think it was about $500 and it was really slow. It was like at the end of its career and stuff and really slow and that was dad's practice dog. So they would take it to the track and race and trial it and stuff like that. And that was my first introduction to what really happens when dogs aren't fast enough. Right. And I remember coming home from fifth grade and from high part of ill primary school and the dog not being in the yard anymore. And I said, oh, there's a dog dad. He said, oh, we had it put the sleep sun. And I said, well, for you, it's not fast enough. Had you built some affection toward this dog? Oh, I was a chef. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because eight years old boy, we had dogs cats, birds, rabbits, all sorts of things. We have at that age. And I'd had dogs and pets growing up and their time comes and they pass away and stuff. But that was usually when they were old or sick or used to do something. And how did you reconcile that in your mind at the time? I didn't. I absolutely didn't. And then I would go through that process for about the next 10 to 12 years before I left home where the dogs would just disappear. And yeah, for that period of time, it broke me without a doubt, without a doubt. And after a couple of years of having a few dogs, then dad got a bit more serious. So that was when the proper kennels got put into. So that was things like concrete for the dogs to sleep on the old hammock bed, pretty much spend the whole day in the kennel. There'd be out for 10, 15 minutes to go to the toilet, maybe an hour at most. I really want to pause on that because that's our understanding. We know that minimum standards are 15 minutes per 24 hours or half an hour. And then the minimum they have. Yeah, and a lot of the pros will say, you know, they have a great life in that. But your direct personal experience is that's exactly what happened. Yeah, exactly. That's what we did when we would go to the big commercial places is exactly what they did. They had rows and rows of kennels, be hundreds of dogs and some of them lined up. And it'd be someone there with a hose squirt out the kennels. Usually they'd take the dog out, they'd put it into a small paddock, sand, maybe a little bit of grass, almost always by itself. Because you didn't want to get in hurt running with another dog. Paddocks were always small because grow hands love their zoomies and that meant injuries. We had a small area in our backyard and dog was never allowed off the lead. That was the rule because if it decided to have a bit of a sprint in the yard and hurt itself, well that cost money, didn't it? Yeah. So they spent their whole life on the lead and in that concrete kennel until we did trials and racing. And this is what you're witnessing from a very young age. Dogs disappearing. Dogs are just being treated with the most minimal of human care. And you use a really strong phrase there that broke you as a young kid. What impact has on a young kid seen sentient creatures treated like this? I can't speak for anyone else but for me it hurt a lot and it probably wasn't until I was around 30 years old that I came to grips with all those dogs that just vanished. And around that age I'd had a career in the military and left the military and was working in a corporate life and was just really struggling. And that's worth noting as well. Mel, we're talking about, Max was in the Navy since he was 19 years old, right? A submarine. He's an engineer. He's a business owner. You're a man who can get shit done and face the world. But this has affected you on an emotional level. Yeah, definitely. And it was around 30 years of age that I just started struggling. I went and saw a doctor and went and saw some counsellors and effectively worked out that I had PTSD. Yeah, from all the dog deaths. And I word to the vet when I was quite young as well which I'll come to shortly. But as a family we had, I'd say over the years I was there, maybe 20 greyhounds. And we only ever kept one. One. Who we used to breed from and then she was lucky enough to spend the rest of our life with us. The rest either got sold usually for a few hundred dollars or we took them to the vet and they got the needle. And always the father hurt the most for me and I understand my parents were trying to do what they thought was helpful by shielding me from it. But I would go to school in the morning and come home with no dog there. And it was just that one's gone. And there was no, and since then I've had lots of dogs. And if you're a dog person you'll know that yeah, when a time comes and you decide to have them put to sleep whether you do it at home or at a vet surgery, most people choose to stay with their dog or at least be there to the point where they can handle it. But having that taken away from me that's the part that broke me. You know, as a teenage boy, that was really hard. Really hard. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to listen to and I really appreciate your sharing. We've heard from a vet who used to own on track, a vet nurse who said, "Honey, who said in her experience, over the three years I think she worked only one owner ever came to pick up a dead dog from the morgue out of all of the, you know, dozens of that she'd witnesses that they only want it to be with this creature and you're speaking to something even deeper than that that a young kid having an attachment as and if you're a dog person as you say you know I've got two beautiful hands bunny and bow I will be holding her hand I'll be there all night holding her hand as you have Mel if she ever when she leaves this place yeah this is a tough one Mel this is yeah Mark what you're speaking about it is PTSD it is a traumatic experience and it's complex trauma not just an acute trauma of witnessing loss time and time again but was there anything significant in particular that really shifted your stance on things yeah there was one thing and I said before I go here I wouldn't cry but we'll see how we go oh mate you're a safe you're in a safe place here look there's even tissues just in case you've all my won't be far behind you at this rate so I was about 17 maybe nearly 18 and we had a dog called his racing name was so Stanley his kennel name or pet name that I used to have for him with ship it was Brindle dog really big boy and he was the most gentle greyhound I'd ever come across he was given to us because he wasn't any good and it's not that he wasn't any good he just he couldn't run a long distance so he was like watching you same bolt at the Olympics 100 meters 200 meters that's it and then he was the same he the track he used to race at least ago had one of the shortest tracks or one of the shortest races in the country was only about 240 meters and poor fella come 260 meters he'd be like I've had enough I need to stop but for that first 240 meters he was unbeatable yeah he held the track record for over a decade and he became so popular with the crowd there that the book makers wouldn't take bets because he was such a sure thing to win wow and because effectively they couldn't make any money out of it and he'd become a favorite and people would cheer and stuff when he run past post and that and he'd raced 40-50 times and mom and dad had decided that was it he'd earned his retirement so to speak and they even named the race the first race of that day after him as people in the grandstand watching and cheering and it had rained the night before not a big deal in the blue mountains and they're supposed to drag the track with a tractor flat in the sand and I'd later find out that that didn't couldn't be bothered and so dad laid him in the boxes I remember being at the start finish line watching a mum was catching and boxes for open out he come in front didn't get touched by another dog nothing near him and about a hundred meters into the race he put his foot in a hole that was in the track and he tumbled and so I'm assaulted over the rest of the pack read over him and when it happened the crowd just went silent it was really bizarre and all the people yelling and screaming at their dog to win or another one to catch it just went quiet and the race finished and at that stage I could see my dad running from the boxes to where the dog was because he was moving couldn't get up and he carried his arms back to the kennels and found out that he was paralyzed he's broken his back in three places and an enquiry was done and everything and they found out but yeah they just didn't bother to drag the track it was like first race who cares just get him get going and we never got an apology we never got a sorry nothing so we took that dog to a vet closer where we lived which was maybe an hour from the track and they just said oh let's just get rid of it now and mum to occur it said no that's not happening we're gonna see it as it can be done so he lay there on that vet for three days because it was a Saturday they used to race so come Tuesday what happened I went to school he got the needle and I come home and didn't get to say goodbye and that was the point where I'd kind of had enough and even at that age you know I'd gruff in a military family dad was a military and two generations before that it wasn't the sort of family you just said I'm not doing that anymore you know right that was that was the end of it for me yeah and yeah to watch him I key to earned my parents a lot of money he'd given a lot to your family and to others and when you were speaking about how the crowd went silent the crowd had built an attachment to this beautiful creature as well they had without a doubt people used to come up to us and so I think so is such a great dog we love him and I've made this much money and it was just all money he didn't get his retirement he didn't get his place in the sun after all the all that he'd given he got a needle in the end I remember thinking years later watching the movie Gladiator the Russell Crow where he goes through all that stuff and he finally becomes like the last Gladiator standing yet he still dies and it's like this horrible ending you like but you did everything right and it still didn't matter to that and that's what it was like for him and that was my breaking point so that said yeah okay yeah okay yeah it's difficult to proceed as normal male because we know statistically what happens and but when you hear it up close in person all like that yeah you know I just also think that there must be there must be so many people like you that feel this way that are involved but I can't get out or speak out or whatever happened after your decision and obviously you then join the Navy and you got away from the whole thing entirely but there must be and this is where in WA particularly because it's all government owned I really struggle because where is the duty of care to people I we're all about welfare absolutely but there's also this has to have you packed on people that are involved it's where is that duty of care by our government that runs it here it's just I don't understand I just cannot get my head around it well that kind of does lead me into my next question mark is what do you think the reasons that people stay involved in this sport given what they know because from our side of the fence we often a little baffled when we see the injury the death and it goes on and it gets worse and then some of the responses seem to look away from the injury and death but do they know like are the participants aware they must be surely of how many of these beautiful creatures are getting killed and if so what makes them want to keep being involved after I decided to have nothing more to do with it and it was probably 25 30 years before I went back to a dog track to see what if anything had changed after that day yeah and one of the things that I did notice is that while lots of rules and regulations had improved and stuff the people involved and the outcomes for the dogs were exactly what they were when I watched so Stanley died right and what I mean by that is you know so I don't know brothers it was just mum dad and me and it was something we did as a family a lot of my friends were similar dad's best friend had a big commercial channel and we would go around Sunday and have lunch and train the dogs away of life it was just it was part of belonging to something right same way someone you know belong to a local fishing club or or to a bowls club or anything that they're involved in and if you stay with those people long enough you start to believe everything everyone tells you that it is okay and the dogs do get a good home and the audience are isn't the end of the world and on those lots worse things in the world so maybe the people should focus on that and that's not the point that I've only seen two things in my life changed that I think genuinely helped greyhounds erasing and that was the change from and this is a long time ago from grass to sand tracks in Australia so when we first started most of the tracks were grass similar to the horse racing and the injury rate was ten times what it is now it was really bad and like every race dogs would fall every race and then they changed to sand and that helped a lot yeah so that was a positive change and the only other one I've seen is the adoption of things like greyhounds as pets and whether it's the government or the privatisation is actually allowing people to keep them as pets and encouraging people to keep them as pets so they're the only two things in 40 years I've seen improved for the dogs are now at least have people trying to find homes for them and sand tracks but nothing's else improved the tracks are just as bad as they were it doesn't matter which track you go to whether you go to canning to know you go to Wentworth Park or sand down or any of the flash expensive ones behind the scenes the kennels are the same the people that take those dogs out and put them in the boxes and race them do it for exactly the same reasons which is money yeah if you took away the prize money or the sponsorship all the ability to gamble yep and you want it people say oh it's a hobby it's a hobby fine I've got lots of hobbies yep none of them are funded I have to pay my money yep to run those hobbies you are singing my tune you are absolutely singing I've said this time again on the podcast if what you really care about is purpose of breed and getting them to do what they love or what you really love is the sense of community and whatever then go do it but stop chucking a bet on them stop having prize money you can You can do that, right? If that's what you really care about, but what you're saying from the inside perspective is that isn't actually what is cared about. What's cared about is making a buckle too. Is that fair enough? - Yeah, it was completely what it is. If there was no money in greyhound racing to be made, and it was a hobby, I mean, people do you think would really do it. When my dad started, he says, "Oh, this might be something good for the family, "we'll run the dog around the track." Not thousands of dogs and millions of dollars in tracks. None of that would happen. Because it's expensive. Like really expensive. Feeding, canaling, vet fees, track fees. So they have to take money from gaming industry and they got to take money from government. Otherwise, it doesn't work. - Won't stand up. - One of the things I look at these days, but there's obviously there's horse racing, there's harness racing and greyhound racing in Australia. And I'd love to see all three stopped. And for me, greyhound racing is the worst one. At least with harness racing and with horse racing, the cost involved in owning a horse and stabling it and running it is 10 times 100 times what it is a greyhound. And you've got a jockey on it. And it's not in the jockey's interest to break that horse down. They can pull it up. And sometimes they can't, they don't. And the horse is passed away. But there's the chance. A saw how it doesn't do that. It just runs and runs until effectively, it can or it's dead. There's nothing to stop it when it's got an injury to pull it up. Yeah. When they fall and they take a bad tumble, you see them finish if they can and even struggle to get up to it. Because their instincts are, yeah, on one of the Facebook posts, some posts that they love. Their tails are wagging. And they're so excited when we put them in the trailers. And I felt like saying, look, one of my dogs, his tail wagged something chronic when it sees a bunch of motorbikes drive past on the street because I rode a motorbike. I don't let him off to go running with the bikes because it's my responsibility to know that he might get hurt or killed if I let him do that. Right? So these greyhounds, they might get all excited because they don't know that there's a good chance when we chuck them on that track, they might get hurt or killed. We know that. It's up to us to know that. I remember when we would have litters of puppies and then you'd start the whole training process, yeah, literally from when they were weaned. And people say, oh, greyhounds, they love to run. They're born to run. They're not born to run in an oval track with eight out of a box. No one will convince me of that because they're not. I'm happy to agree that greyhounds love to run. I think they do. Do they love to race, which is a complete different kind of. It's very different. Yeah, very different. Mark, I'm going to ask you to maybe dive into something again that's a little bit painful. We know that you were trackside to witness the awful injuries that were suffered by trunky Jennings who broke both front legs at Northern on July 21st. Can you give us your account of that and how that affected you and share with our listeners and up close and personal? So this is a story almost by chance in that we've already adopted our greyhound oscar. And I'd organised a weekend away in York from a wife and I and both the dogs at Airbnb, the lady said, you can bring the dogs, they can stay inside. And my wife from the UK and she'd never seen a greyhound race. And I said, well, I'm going to take it to Northern. So it's winter, they race into Northern. And it's a country track. I said, I'll guarantee it will look exactly the same as what it did 30 years ago when I used to go. So off we went and sure enough, the moment you pull up to Northern greyhound track, the first thing you think is this should have been bulldozed 100 years ago. It's falling out, falling apart. I reckon I counted maybe 10 people that weren't directly involved in handling dogs there that day, at best, including us. Anyhow, so we sat and watched a few races and I explained to what the handlers do, what the catchers do, how it all works, why people do it. And then the race came around where this particular dog was entered in and the little went past. They jumped from the boxes, went down the main street. And like almost all over, the tracks, you can be almost certain that the worst injuries are that first corner. But there's eight dogs trying to squeeze into what is effectively one spot right on the little line. Yep, yep. And this dog fell. And like often, it doesn't necessarily look bad at first, but it tumbled really bad. And all I could do was picture that dog from when I was really young, the same thing. And the race continued to the little went on, and you could hear it screaming. You could see it couldn't get up. Couldn't get up. At that stage, I didn't know it had broken both its legs, but you could see it was in a lot of pain. And it was lying right in the middle of the track, so on the racing line. So it didn't stop the lure, didn't stop the race, just went all the way back around, and the dogs just ran straight over it, because it couldn't get up. And at that stage, the handles that had put the dogs in the box were starting to walk back. And I watched the person, the gentleman who had that dog, had as he walked past it on the track, he had been no more than three metres from it. It just looked at it and shook his head and kept going. It didn't stop at all, or even give it a glance. It was just like, you've got to be kidding me. And two young girls came in the little ambience being that follows around at best that had been maybe 25. They loaded this dog in, because they couldn't get up, into the back of the van, and that was it. And back to the canals, which gosh, it's probably at all the maybe 50 metres from the track entrance. And a bit later, one of the sewers was walking past, and someone who was a regular there said, "Oh, what about that dog?" And he just made that symbol where you take like a run your finger across your neck, like as if something's dead, and it's like a cutting, and just shook his head and said, "Both legs, you guys, it's dead." And someone said, "Oh, that's a shame, isn't it?" "Oh, well." And we'd have been sitting no further than metre or two. And then my wife, she was really shaken up when she heard that. And I said, "Do I said what really happens?" "That's the bit people don't see." Isn't it tragically ironic that it came full circle for you as that young kid, and then your last visit to a track is another tragic death of, I don't know, I don't even know how to respond to this one, Mel. It also shows to me the frequency of it happening. If you can go that long without visiting a track and then witness such carnage, it just obviously happens far more than what we're made aware of. Yeah, and the part people don't see is if you watch the telecast of a race, they follow the lure and the leader of the race around. And you hear, "Oh, there's been an incident "or there's a dog stumbled," or it's been checked as the other word, "You're here." A checked basically means something's bad has happened. And you never see what happens to that dog. Occasionally, it'll finish, but almost never do you see what actually happens. People go, "Oh, it just stumbled or whatever." No, it didn't just stumble. The something is torn or broken. Very rarely, there's a dog fall or get checked and not have a significant injury. And that's the part people don't realize. It's like, "Oh, don't they just get up and run again?" It's just, they just fell over. Yeah. And they don't see two young girls loading it into an ambulance. And they don't see the owner going, "Oh, you've got to be kidding me, aren't you?" And they don't see it going into a bag, into a freezer, and being dumped off later. And this happens over and over again. For those hands that do have a fall and get back up and race again, this is a repetitive assault upon their bodies, right? You know, the average start as I've read some of those around 40 starts per gram. There's the cumulative effect of these falls that we can break them slowly as well as kill them all at once, can't we? Oh, definitely. Well, I'm 49 now and injuries I had was a teenager in my early 20s are they're only just getting sore now. But anyone in my age would say the same thing. Do you race a dog for maybe three or four years old that had all these injuries? And then the owners and trainers discard them and then people come along and adopt them. And the poor dogs broke it. And all those injuries, they were like, "Oh, it gets a great life once it's finished racing." Yeah, you get a brilliant life as they never raced in the first place because it wouldn't have the injury. Yeah, yeah. When you and I spoke about what you've done as a kid when you worked at the vet, would you mind, and if you don't want to speak about it, understand, but this is something that we often get pushed back about the way that the dogs are treated post-death, if you like. Yeah, so this is one that is pretty graphic and some people might struggle to listen to a little bit. So one of the first jobs I had out of high school was working at a local veterinary surgery. And so I was looking at being a veterinary nurse at that stage. And this is the part that stopped me from wanting to do that as a job. I remember working there and my job was, when the dogs would come in, and this is particularly greyhounds, I'm primarily talking about here, the owners would just drop them off at the front and they'd pay there $50, $100, whatever it was, and that was for them to be euthanised. No questions. It didn't matter why. Injury, no injury, young old, that was just the vet's job. And they'd just get lead into the backroom. And often the vet, otherwise a nurse or literally anybody, would just fill in syringe, full of a liquid out of a four-leater tub, and you'd just pump it straight into the dog and let it die. And then my job being the new guy was to bag them. So that meant putting them in a big, black plastic bag. And I remember the vet, the words were, "Make sure you double bag them, Mark, because they're long legs. We don't want the legs to stick through the bag and people to see that." So I would pick up these anywhere from 25 to 35 kilogram dogs and put them in two black garbage bags. Time in and not. and put him in a chest freezer. We had about four big chest freezes out the back. And when the chest freezes were full, which sometimes would only be a week, I'd load them into a cage trailer, take the work car, which didn't have any signage on it, and I'd drive it to the local tip. And we had an agreement with the local tip that when we got there, because they didn't want people to see, frozen dogs being pushed into the rubbish tip, they would come along with the dozer, and so I would back up, push the dogs out the back into the garbage tip, and they would dump a load of soil on them. So that was back in the day when people used to scavenge around the tip, if you remember, each spout would walk around pick up all sorts, and it was like, "Look, Councillor would be like, "we don't want someone to come across a dead dog, do we?" So I'd chuck them all in one pile, and the dozer guy would come over and put a load of soil on top, and back to the bed I'd go. So that was, and that was how all the great hounds were treated, every single last one of them. - Yeah. Yeah, it just. I don't have the words, really. I don't, I wish I did. Well, I do have the words, but they're probably not right to say. Is there anything, I guess, else that you want listeners to know about your time there? - I guess one thing that I'm sure people will say is, "Oh, that was in the past," and you're right, it was. It was a long time ago. But with my small involvement in the industry again now, like I said, very little has changed for the dogs, and while more of them find homes now, and there's more regulation, at the end of the day, the dogs still have a terrible life, they still die. People still gamble on them. It's not like we're short of things to gamble on. I can pick up my phone and bed on everything you can imagine. So it's not like the argument, "Oh, we need things to gamble on, you've got plenty of things to gamble on." You can't say, "Oh, what about all the money and jobs?" Like with the richest state in Australia, it had been for a decade. Government doesn't need it from a money perspective. We've got two tracks and a half-time track. Next to Tasmania, we're the smallest when it comes to greyhound racing. Like for me, it's a no-brainer that WI should be the next state to get rid of it. And I understand, like any industry, while I would love it, just to be stopped, just to afternoon, "Oh no, that's not practical." In reality, phasing something out. And there are people who have jobs and that somehow needs to be looked into. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. I think anyone who would like to see the greyhound racing end would prefer to see it end with a date and a plan versus a constant, "Oh, we'll review it. We'll think about it. I'll want about the money, what about this?" They've just gone and put a bear on fishing for the Mersel fish. And there's hundreds of people that have businesses and charter boats and commercial fishermen, yeah. And they didn't give them much notice. And I'm pretty sure they're not exactly happy. Or find a way they'll work things out. And the people who do greyhound training as a hobby, it won't make any difference to them. But they're handful of that do it as an actual business. Yeah, it will. And there's less than 50 of those in this state. Yeah, it's such a tiny amount. It's not gonna crush an industry. There's no industry. And do you think, like, we free the hands of maintained that these changes that you've spoken of, regulatory changes and things like that that have occurred, we kind of say, well, that was due to pressure from advocacy groups, more so than the industry saying, you know, waking up one day and saying, "Oh, we're gonna do better." So that's what always worries us is if we take the foot off the pedal and stop calling them out as much, will things go back? Because just because you've got regulation doesn't mean it's gonna be followed, because you've got people that have been in there before the regulation was brought in or they were toughened. Especially when you're self-regulating well, when you don't have an independent oversight. Yeah, so-- Of course it'll go back to what it was. I remember watching the RSPCA get involved way back in the '90s when they used to live bait in New South Wales. Used to tie two rabbits by their feet with zip ties or cable ties to the lure on a trial track. And the owners wanted to do it. It was the RSPCA. They said, "You can't do that. That's not your main." So if you'd have taken them or any other advocacy group out of it, of course the Chinese would have still done it. They all believed it made a difference, which it doesn't, you know, that they'd chase anything, sorry, it hounds. It just needs movement. Doesn't need a bleeding rabbit. But lo and behold, it still continued and to pay a fortune to do it though. But I went to trial tracks where it still happened all the time. So if you take away groups like free the hounds and the others, of course I'll go back to what they want to do. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, that's our biggest fear, I think. And that's what we say to participants. If it's only a few bad apples, why are they still there? Why didn't you weed them out? Why did it take anybody speaking out against you to do so? And we just think that we can't stop until it's stopped because there is nobody holding them accountable otherwise. And again to Mark's point, why would they, when the incentive is well established that we're in this to make a profit? There's a couple of hobbyists maybe, but the bulk of it is let's make some money here. So there's a conflict of interest because welfare concerns and all that impede the money making, right? Like it costs money to build welfare. And it might reduce money making potential. So it seems again using your term a no-brainer that things would go in that direction. I would love to just keep talking to you forever. We have so much in common, military family. I'm a military family. From Hobartville, there's just so much that we have in common on that level. And just the depth of feeling that you have, Mark, for what you've been through and how it's impacted you. And your capacity as a man to go against the grain of your family tradition of what you've been brought up with and say, no, I'm going to speak for something different. I just admire that so much. I do have a question for you though. How is it with the family? Do they understand your perspective? Has it meant there's been a rupture? If you able to speak to that, if you want to. Yeah, I'm estranged from my parents. I've been for almost 20 years now, which is a really sad thing to say. I've got three kids, and they've only ever met one on her first birthday. I'm really sad to hear that. You know what, if I'm actually really honest, part of me is again, heartened that you have chosen something that you have made a choice based on integrity and truth. But the sacrifice you've made to do that means that you've lost relationships with your family. Yeah, it does. And you said before about the effect that has on children or teenagers or adolescents going to the track or being involved and stuff. And I won't be the only one. I had friends at school, of the schools that you and I went to. That were involved. That didn't like it. And there'll still be people like when I was at Northam, most of the handlers were school-aged kids. On a Monday, not during school holidays. And that'll simply be, mom and dad saying, come on, you're going to come down to the track and do the dogs instead of going to school. That alone, right with three teenagers, was enough to make my blood boil. I'm like, what are they doing here? This is not a career or job. Send them to school where they should be. I don't need to be part of this. Absolutely. Do you think that a lot of these people involved, like it's systemic, it's from families, it's from generational thing that it's passed down rather than young people getting involved? Yeah, I can't imagine any young person. You don't just start into greyhound racing randomly. It's because your parents aren't young or your granddad, someone like that did it. So all those younger people I saw at the track, they'll be on the side of this isn't the end of the world. We should continue to do it. And that for me is really sad because their parents will get to a point where they don't want to be involved in the sport or their two-old and stuff. And that generation of people will die out. But to have passed it on to your kids and then potentially their kids and family friends, that's the part that'll just perpetuate it forever. Yeah. And particularly being a state-owned industry, that's just wrong. And they know it is. Some simple things they could do to stop the involvement from kids in adolescence. Well, you have to be 18 to go to the casino. So the basic thing for me-- Makes sense. There's gambling taking place on the floor if you like at the track. They shouldn't be having kids there, little line advertising it as a family-friendly night. It just-- Yeah. This has been extraordinary. Well, and I mean that sincerely. I'd like to finish maybe on not to sell the line anything, but to remember that there's something beautiful about the hounds and to ask you what, in particular, about the gray hounds, you've spoken a lot about the trauma experiences you've had with gray hounds. What's the joyous part of gray hounds for you? What is it that you love? Because to me, the gray hounds are the best. What are they to you? Gee, for me, it's really interesting after so many years having them growing up really young and seeing them treated as a commodity, and only the odd one being a companion pet. And then to having one now again as a pet. And I'd forgotten how brilliant they are as adults, whether it's a gray hound, a whiper, or any other site hound, or whatever. They are also very similar in their nature. They're the most gentle dogs you could imagine. And they're great for your mental health. All dogs are, to be honest, but they just have this ability to make your laugh at yourself. And I've got my Kelpies. So really popular dog TV shows about Kelpies. There's movies about Kelpies. The people stop. asked me about her. And I bet she's so cute. She's got like really cute names. She's got a pink collar and she does tricks and everything. Oh, she's nice. They're like, what about you? Tell me about that. Tell me about that. And everyone they always want to know. They're just curious why you've got one. And so many people say, oh, if I had space or my next dog is going to be a greyhound. Yeah, it's just a club. I don't know how to describe it. It is. If you're ever lucky enough to have one in your life, you'll realise how special they really are. They're an incredible companion. They really are. And if you're even considering it, then Boal means give it a go. It'll be the bestest it you ever make. I don't think I'm alone in this room and I would imagine with our listeners in being deeply affected by your story and your courage in vulnerability. I think often we think especially in the military, courage means being big and strong. But to me, courage is facing your own vulnerability and then using that to stand up for the vulnerability of others. So I just salute you. Thank you so much. It was harder than I thought coming telling this. Really? Yeah. Haven't really told it to anyone to be honest. Well, I very much. So I thought the general public and anyone else was a good start. Yes, you get it out there. Get it all out at once. Yeah, you've touched me today and I would imagine you might have touched some of our listeners. I doubt we're going to touch the die hard four percenters. I doubt it very much. There's four percent of people that's been established in WA who are strongly supportive greyhound racing. But that means there's a bunch of people on the fence that aren't sure. And I'm hoping that what you've said today will help them maybe be a little more sure about where they want to stand. Yeah, I really hope so as well. So for anyone who's at all worried, it's all completely true. Every last bit of it from the bottom of my heart. I'll give you my word. There's nothing I've said here today that I wasn't either involved with or witnessed myself. I appreciate your time. Well, I'm speechless today. I really am very honoured and privileged for your trust more than anything. Thanks so much for giving me the chance to actually to tell it. Mel, I don't know what to say about that one. I think I've said all I can say that was a very special episode. I do want to just a little matter of business though. I forgot to mention that on top of everything else Mark, does he support his wife Claire's small business? And guess what the small business is, Mel? It's not Toshu sales. It's not stock portfolio management. It's online food blog with an international following. Sprinkles and sprouts. Sprinkles and sprouts, Mel. No, it sounds yum. I actually go and have a look at it. I've had a look and it's so yum. And that's I really wish we had of had time to talk to Mark about that as well. Let's have him back on. Yeah. Go and check it out. His wife is very talented and I'm very clever lady. Sprinkles and sprouts.com if you want to check it out. I'm, yeah, I'm still a little bit unsettled, but inspired by that conversation. And I've got a funny feeling. Our listeners will be unsettled and inspired as well. If you're listening stand up, hold yourself with integrity. Take a risk to do what maybe others won't want you to do and be a voice for the house. So one day Mel we shall release the house.