Ep5 - Jonathan Groff

Play I'm Ianagande. Hi, I'm Ziddi Aurevo and you're listening to the Broadway podcast network. Visit bpm.fm to discover them. You're listening to Stagecraft, Variety's theater podcast, bringing you in-depth interviews with the people behind the hottest shows on Broadway, Off Broadway, in London and around the country. I'm your host Variety's theater editor, Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking with Jonathan Graf, the Broadway favorite from shows including Hamilton and Spring Awakening, and the star of David Fincher's new Netflix series, Mindhunter. Jonathan is here in the studio to talk about Mindhunter, his enduring connection to Hamilton and more. Jonathan, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me in episode five. Episode five, Stagecraft. It's so exciting. Yeah. Your new show on Netflix, Mindhunter, is based on the true story of the two men who expanded our understanding of criminal science by sort of probing the psychology of serial killers. And it feels kind of like a departure for you. It's dark subject matter and it's David Fincher, which we'll talk about, but he has a very specific style that seems unlike, I mean, the way most people work, right? Yeah. Did it feel like a departure for you as you were going into it? In some ways, yes, in some ways, no. David Fincher's world is so specific. And he has this amazing way of taking actors, really every actor that I saw him work with, and kind of pushing you to your limits and daring you to do things that you've never done before, which is thrilling and kind of an actor's dream. And when it's a director like David Fincher, as an actor, I felt really safe kind of jumping and trying new things because he's so brilliant that I feel like it's, you know, he says jump and you say, "How high?" Can you give me an example of a moment? So, yeah, of course. So he was like, you smile a lot and you are charming as Jonathan the actor in the world. And this character has absolutely no, not that he's no sense of self, but he's not savvy enough to know how to charm people. And so you smile a lot in your life, so you can't smile as holding forward. This is not a charming, sunny people pleaser. This is an intellectual, curious, deep diver. So you need to turn up that, you know, aspects. And stop smiling was the running joke through the entire first season. Because sometimes I smile and I don't even know that I'm smiling. But this is his thing. He sees everything. And he's like, "You're always smiling." And so he'd be like, "Okay, and we're rolling and Jonathan stop smiling. And you're still smiling." And, okay, action. You can smile at all. Period. Well, I mean, that's an exaggeration. There are moments when the character smiles. When the character smiles. But, you know, as an actor, I have these texts that I don't even know exist. And that kind of, you are your toolbox, the notes that you hit often. Right? And I think when you say this character as a departure, it's an example of that, is that I'm used to doing certain things a certain way. And David has an ability to spot those things and eviscerate them and allow you to show a different side of yourself. I mean, in the ways that he's casted a bunch of his movies, even like Justin Timberlake and in the social network. Right. And Tyler Perry and Gone Girl, all like really amazing and surprising performances that you weren't really expecting. But even everybody in Mindhunter, I mean, he's giving all the actors really great opportunities to step outside of what they're used to. And what did, would you feel like you found in yourself as an actor working that way? It's actually a whole scene about it in Mindhunter where Debbie, my girlfriend, talks about spoiler. This isn't that too much of a plot spoiler, but she says, you know, she's doing this studying class about women smiling and looking to be nice and warm and accepted and how when you, when as a woman, she describes in the scene, when you don't smile, it makes people feel uncomfortable and weird and strange. And we have that whole culture of the resting bitch face, is like a thing for a woman. And so I'm so used to smiling all the time that it really did teach me about a different part of my personality, which is just one sort of little anecdotal thing that I've learned during the course of the making of the show. And what was it specifically that drew you to the project, where you fascinated with the subject matter or working with the director? I was, yeah, definitely was David. Seeing I said yes to the audition before reading anything, because I knew that it was his baby and his vision. So when I saw David Fincher on the email from my agent to audition, I said yes. And I was doing Hamilton at the time, right? And I read the, you went straight from Hamilton into filming that, right? I did actually, actually left my contract in Hamilton a couple of months early in order to go to Pittsburgh to start shooting. I left before the like Tony sweep of Hamilton to go to Pittsburgh. But then when I read the material that they sent me, the scenes were so interesting and psychological and the characterizations of the FBI agents in particular, Holden, were they were just so dense and complicated. And so the material plus David Fincher, it was kind of a no-brainer. It really was like, well, this is the only thing that I would want to leave Hamilton for, because this is also exciting in its own special and unique way. Right. And we talked a little bit about this before we turned the recorder on. But David Fincher is famously meticulous as a director. And as we were discussing, you took a month per episode to film, which is what, four times what it takes most TV shows, right? Yeah. Tell us about that. It wasn't the intention. It wasn't like they said, okay, we're going to be here from May until March doing an episode a month. It kind of was like, just sort of was how it all worked out. We shot a lot out of order. So because of the weather, so they needed to shoot the third, fourth, and sixth episodes last to capture fall and winter. So we did episodes one, two, seven, eight, nine, ten, and then three, four, five, six. Because just like, and you can see when you watch the show, they really wanted to capture the atmosphere of the outside during those episodes, as it related to the story and just the time of year and the mood of the whole piece. So because of that, there was every writing that happened and an evolution and jumping to the end, we then had to cover our tracks and fill holes that we'd missed and etc, etc. And so it just ended up taking a little bit longer than we anticipated because we had to just sort of fill in holes in the schedule and the scenes that sort of arose out of that sort of time disparity. But there are still the stories of, you know, a hundred takes to get one very small shot exactly right. Are those stories true? I mean, they are, it's complicated because, or it's actually not complicated, that's the thing that's so interesting about it. David's really, David works in a really specific way. It's very pragmatic. It's very focused on problem solving. It's a very unromantic and very direct. And so it's not like he's this omniscient presence on set speaking into a microphone saying do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. Did you kind of think that's what it would be like? I really, you know, I didn't know what to expect. And the minute that I met him, it was just immediately clear. There's just no bullshit. He's very direct. And so the moments when we did do multiple takes, it was very clear every time why we were doing it again. It wasn't a mystery whether it was for camera or for, or to change a line or for an actor or to everybody to everybody find their rhythm together. It was just a constant evolution. And sometimes we would get things quickly. And sometimes we wouldn't. But he was so committed to getting it as right as he possibly could in that moment that you just did it until you felt like you got it. Do you think he is a good director to work with four actors? Oh my gosh. Yes. Absolutely. In that, in that he, what we talked about earlier, really, well, first of all, he sees everything. He sees absolutely everything. And he's got, he would, and I'm sure he would like roll his eyes. So deeply, me saying this. But, but he, I think he can do everybody's job better than they can. That's such a hard thing to find in one person. But he might have notes for, for, for picture, for the crew, for the actors, for the writers. I mean, just notes for everyone that were so 10 steps ahead already of everybody else. It's just mind-boggling to be on a set with him and to watch his brain work. So there's that is really exciting to be around. And then he's so in tune with the emotional and technical aspects. He can just talk to you in whatever language is appropriate, which is so for that particular actor, which is really rare to find as a director, someone that's so intellectually fluid and can approach things in a, in a, in a in a psychological way or in an emotional way or in a just physical, technical way. I feel like mind hunter arrived at a really interesting cultural moment because Netflix released the first season, October 13th, just as Hollywood started grappling with Harvey Weinstein revelations and the entertainment industry and kind of workplaces in general were dealing with kind of rampant harassing. and abuse and the culture of it these days. And here's the show that's about violence perpetrated almost entirely against women, right? And the psychology of the men who perform those acts and what's going on in their brains and what are the cultural forces that work in creating these men, right? Totally. Did your work on the show, do you feel like your work on the show gave you some insight into what's happening right now that maybe you wouldn't have had otherwise? Oh gosh, no. I feel like it's what's the thing of I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV. I'm not a pro-filer but I play one on Netflix. Right. I kind of think. Well, I can't have you in the studio without talking about Hamilton, right? Right. I mean, for the listeners who don't know, maybe you were living under a rock, I don't know. Jonathan played King George in the original Broadway cast that included David Diggs, Leslie Odom Jr., Renely Skolzbury, Phillipa Sue, and of course, Lin-Man Mamaranda. How much of a part of your life is the show these days? Oh, on a daily basis. Yeah. It's so funny. That's the weird thing about theater is when you do a show, you go every day. Right. And it's ritualistic and you see those people every day. I just officiated Steve, Pasquale and Pippa Sue's wedding. Oh, all right. And that was the three weeks ago. And that was the first time I'd seen. I was Phillipa Sue, was Eliza. Yeah, was Eliza. Was Eliza? Yeah. I set them up. And then I married them. I did not. You did it? Yeah, totally. I did not know that story. And so that was actually the first time I'd seen. I hadn't seen Renee since. Like, we texted and we actually talked on the phone at length. Isn't she in a Netflix series? Exactly. Because she was actually considering taking that job. I was like, "Girl, you got to get in with this Netflix thing. It's so amazing." (laughter) Yeah, we talked to them and we stayed connected. But it wasn't until they're wedding that I'd seen all of them. It's like family. So Hamilton, I did in the shower the other day, put on the Skyler Sisters. Oh, all right. While I was getting ready and helpless, I think I listened to that as well. But not nearly as much of a daily situation as it used to be while I was in the show. I feel like for so many of those actors that we were talking about, Hamilton was such a life changer of an experience. Was the same true for you? It was different for me because I did spring awakening on Broadway when I was 21, I think, when the show opened. Right. And that, for me, was like every Broadway dream I had come true, changed the trajectory of my life and my career and was like the jumping off point for everything for me in so many ways. And I think a lot of the cast of Hamilton experienced that with Hamilton. I joined Hamilton a week after they opened off Broadway replacing Brand RC James. It was just a week. Wow. Yeah, it's weird, right? Yeah. And so I did it downtown for two months and joined them on Broadway. So there was this, like, I felt like I was in it, but I also felt like a fan of it as well, because I got to see it before I was in it. And I was only on stage for nine minutes. So I wasn't pouring my blood, sweat, and tears into the show every night. So it was, it was a really unique, amazing, and specific experience for me. I spent as much more of my time watching the show because I would go into the audience and watch it when I wasn't on stage. Then I was actually in the show. How elaborate was that costume to get on and off? Well, the cape was really big. So I never wear the cape, like the cape they would put on me right before I actually walked on stage and the crown. And then the minute I stepped off stage, they took it off. Yeah, exactly, because it was just so giant. But then I would sneak out into the box of the theater and sit behind audience members. They had no idea they were that King George was looming over their shoulder. I did that several times a week, the whole run of the show, because it was such a thrill to watch that show. Were there certain parts that you like that you made it a point not to miss in the show? Do you have some? Yes, my favorite sequence was from. Well, it was like, so like I would finish my song, my first song, you'll be back. And then I would take my cape off, and then I would like grab a yogurt or something, and then I would go into the audience. And I would watch from. It's like the helpless, satisfied sequence to me as my favorite part of the show. I think it's incredible. Just the rewind, that whole thing. And then I would usually stay through "Wait For It," which is also one of my favorite songs. But sometimes I would stay all the way up through Yorktown. But that was the section of the show that I never missed. Right. Right. And were there any parts that you wish you had played in "Gelica"? Yeah. That's my dream right. I could probably perform the rap yet. I keep joking with Tommy Kale, who is the amazing director of "Hamilton," and I'll send him text being like, "All right, so the London cast, you know, I'm free." He needs an Angelica. Oh, that's a. I'm ready. Well, but I know that "Hamilton" pushes boundaries, so why not have like 32-year-old white dude playing "Gelica"? Is that interesting? I don't know. Would you. But would you go back in the show to play King George at some point? Have you thought about it? Would you.? I, you know, it's so. It's such a unique experience to do it with the original cast. That, I don't know, it's Lin went back in for like a holiday season. We shared a dressing room together, essentially on Broadway, where he was in the big, big room and I was in the small room and we shared a bathroom and we called it the year that we shared a studio apartment in Midtown. And so if he went back in and we got to sort of live in our space together again, I would be down. Right? I love him. Have you seen him lately? I feel like I see you in my YouTube videos occasionally singing together. Yeah, we do. Yeah, no, I saw him. I saw him. I actually got him. This is so insane. Should I be telling this? Yeah. It doesn't matter. I got him to write a rap for Stephen Pipa's wedding to be performed by Kelly O'Hara. What? That we surprise them with. Yeah. This is headline news. Because I was like, I was appreciating their wedding and they were so sweet and they didn't want to make a big deal about anything and they wanted it to be fun and not too formal and whatever. And they were like, and you know, all of our friends are performers so we don't want to ask them to perform at the wedding because why make them perform. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. And then I was sitting with their wedding planner and we were just talking about it. And I was like, I'm going to get Lynn to write a rap and I think Kelly O'Hara needs to do it. So that the sort of life. So I had lunch with him that we before that. That's the last time I saw him. How is Kelly's rapping? Incredible. Yeah. I have an amazing video of her. I have an amazing video of her in the in the coat closet of the wife hotel practicing her rap that is just going to is just one of the gems on my phone that I'll have forever. Why haven't we seen this yet? Why hasn't she performed it live? This is the idea. I know. And then it calls me the Snowden of Broadway because I have all these videos of people but I am not on social media and I don't share anything and I've got it all in lockdown. You are not on social media at all period. I'm not. Was that a conscious choice or is that yes and no. I didn't have it. It didn't exist when I was in high school. I had like a well-instead messenger and that was the extended. So I think that if I grew up as a teenager with Facebook, I would probably still have it just because it was what you did. But I don't know. I was in my 20s when all of it came out and the idea of curating my life for the internet is so it makes me feel anxious. And you don't get pressure from, you know, I don't know, Netflix to promote your show. No. Because I also think that it's amazing and it can be really effective social media but you have to really be into it as an actor. You know, I have lots of actor friends that are on it and it's incredible. And also though I want to because I actually was during looking when looking was kind of like, yeah, is it going to happen? Is it not going to happen? That was the closest I came to getting on social media. But I had this revelation a that it's not something that I feel really passionate about and you can't really hide that when you're on social media. And there's a lot of people with giant social media following who have flop movies and TV shows. So it's not the key to making it's certainly can be a useful tool and an element of it. But I just wasn't an into it enough to really make it effective and ultimately it isn't the only thing I think that makes or breaks somebody's career or any particular project. We should also talk about frozen. Because I think people can forget that you are in frozen because it's your voice and not your face. Exactly. But you are about to be in the year in that little half hour what is it 20 minutes that is released this Christmas? Yes. It's come an adventure. A lot of frozen adventure. Yes. Good job. Yeah. Thanks. It's attached to the film Coco. Have you seen it? Yep. I haven't seen Coco yet. I'm going to go to the premiere in a couple weeks actually. That'll be my first time seeing it. But I have seen a lot of frozen adventure. And I think it's incredible. Yeah. You kind of went from frozen to Hamilton. It's kind of like being in like back to back mega blockbusters a little bit. So weird. Yeah. What was your experience of the frozen? Well, it's so different. Yeah. It's an entirely different thing. Yeah. Nobody stops you on the street. Right. Exactly. They're like, you look like that cartoon. Yeah. I mean, your voice sounds so. Yeah. It's actually hilarious when parents are with their kids. And they're like, "Hah. Sarah, this is the voice of Christav." And Sarah's like, "No, it's not. He's not blonde and he's not a cartoon." And so that doesn't exist. doesn't make any sense. It's hard to draw the line sometimes with three-year-olds to connect the dots in that way. But yeah, Frozen was a total surprise. When it came out, it Thanksgiving a couple of years ago, and then let it go, was this big sensation. And it was so cool to be a part of it, although Hamilton was so different, and theater is so different in that way, because you're promoting it and you're experiencing the success of it while you're doing it, or you're experiencing the failure of it while you're doing it. So I always think that actors that do theater, you know, you can't be thin-skinned because whether it's a hit or a total flop, you're doing it eight shows a week. Right. It seems like theater is still an important, that you think of theater is still an important part of your career. Do you feel like you want theater to be a part of it going forward and oh absolutely an important part? Yeah, absolutely. Theater, I learned so much from doing theater. It's so interesting because the David Fincher experience with in my Hunter was so like doing theater and that we got to do the repetition and really explore the material in a very meticulous and deep way. And theater to me is almost religious. You have to be careful what you choose to do in the theater because you repeat. You know, it's like when you go to church or something and you repeat mantras over and over again. And when you do theater, it's part of why I really wanted to do Hamilton on Broadway. I was anticipating doing it on Broadway. I just came in as a replacement for Brand RC James and then it worked out and hearing material that is meaningful and intelligent and challenging changes you because just by saying things over and over and over and over and over again really gets into your, gets into your body in a cellular level. So I love doing theater for that purpose. Like spring awakening, I did that for a show for a year and a half and I was playing this rebellious student of which was so the opposite of every part of who I was at the time and still am in certain ways. But he was a person who didn't let the world define him and really like followed what he believed in and and and just like parts of that character have stuck in my soul in a really specific way from having done it eight times a week. Yeah. And so you know, you will go on to do the see the second season of my 100. Yeah. Well, I guess it hasn't been like it hasn't been technically. Oh, I thought I had. I believe I saw that. Oh, it's like being announced that there is one. But yeah, they haven't done the official Oh, all right. It's happening. So I guess TBD. Okay, TBD. So TBD. But I hope it goes back and I'd love to go back because it feels like there's a lot of story left to tell. Yeah. What else is on your plate that we should be talking about? I'm doing a concert with Sutton Foster in December at Lincoln Center. That's a huge deal for me because I got Sutton Foster's autograph at the stage door. I've heard this story. Yeah. I saw her six times in Thirley, Modern Milley. And we've so we've like crossed paths over the years. And she she was set to do a songbook at Lincoln Center for in December. And she asked me to be a part of it and create something with her. So I'm super pumped about that. And then I'm doing this. I'm doing a lot of musical stuff. I guess in a subconscious way, I'm missing singing. Yeah. I'm doing this a couple of nights of the Bobby Darren story at the 90 Second Street Y. Oh wow. At the end of January, it is part of their lyrics and lyricist program to sort of investigate him not only as a sort of iconic 50s, 60s music superstar, but also he also wrote a lot of his own music and his personal life story is incredibly intriguing and fascinating. So we're sort of exploring his life at the 90 Second Street Y in January. That sounds cool. Yeah. Is there a secret origin to the nickname Graftsauce that everybody knows that I do not. A limb create, limb coined it. That's during in the Heights days. And I think it's come. I don't really know. But I think it came from remember when people used to say like cool beans and awesome sauce. It was like that. Remember awesome sauce. Yeah. That was the thing the people said. Yeah. So I think he changed it to Graftsauce. So that so back in the Heights and you were doing spring awakening. But that didn't allow me. Yeah. We met through Karen Alivo who was doing in the Heights. Yeah. Right. They were moving from off Broadway to Broadway. And I was doing hair in Central Park with Karen Alivo. Right. We're Karen. Right. And she was like you have to come. You have to meet my friend Lynn. He's going to come to the Delacorte and he's doing a video where he's singing Zach Efron's song from high school musical to. Oh, I remember this. I remember this. And I know you've never met Lynn. But I promise he's really great and he's really smart. And in the Heights is a great show. And he's making this bet on it video as a commercial for In the Heights on Broadway. And he wants you to be in it. And that was such an appropriate first meeting of Lynn. It really like discreet. You know, that's like never forget your first impression. That sort of like is Lynn in so many ways to me getting to meet him. And be like wow, this guy's so amazing. And we're making this video. And he's he needs dress like Zach Efron. And he's like running through Central Park. And it was a it was a very appropriate first meeting. I think now we have to end this episode here to give everyone the opportunity to go, you know, onto YouTube and find that right because it's still there. So hi, my name is Lynn Miranda. I know you don't know who I am. But I wore these pants and I'm willing to dance like an idiot. If you just give me the chance, yeah, that was part of his rap. All right. That was well done. But that was also an old rap because it says hi, my name is Lynn Miranda. Yeah, those days are so over. Do you work on that in preparation for Angelica? Is that the no, I just work on the Angelica. No, that's yeah. Thanks for being here, Jonathan. I really appreciate it. Great to talk to you. It's great to talk to you too. Thank you for having me. I'm gonna resist the urge to rap the Angelica song right now. No, come on. Do it. No, it's okay. No, they can't be. I'm saving it. I'm saving it. I'm saving it. No, what about for who? Lynn? For when I do for Tommy. Yeah, yeah, it's not like polished enough yet. Right. No, that makes sense. That's what. That was Jonathan Groff, the Broadway favorite who's currently starring in David Fincher's Netflix series Mind Hunter. On the next episode of Stagecraft, I'll be talking to Lynn Arons and Steven Flaherty, the songwriting team behind Broadway's Anastasia, and once on this island. The 1990 musical opening on Broadway in a new production in December. Until next time, see you at the theater.