Ep2: What It Takes to Build and Sustain the Modern Data Center

(upbeat music) This is Uptime Now, a Northern Roseful Bright podcast dedicated to conversations about data centers with development and construction to cutting edge technology and operational breakters and the people driving it all. I'm so happy to welcome a true leader in the data center space, my friend, and one of the people who I look to for direction as to what's happening in the sector, Jim Levin. He's a founder of Workplace Elemental Technologies. He's been in this space for as long as anybody I think, 25 years of bringing sustainable, innovative and efficient technology solutions to corporate customers. Welcome to the show, Jim Levin. Jim, how are you? - Hey, Samir, thanks so much for having me. Doing great, trying to stay warm up here in the Boston area, much like you guys there in Chicago, but really excited to chat with you today. - Appreciate you being on. So, Jim, I love knowing the background for how people got to be where they are. And you're obviously very successful. Nobody gets dropped into these positions. Can you tell us about your origin story? How did you end up founding Workplace Elemental Technologies and how did you land in the data center space? - Yeah, certainly. Well, like so many people in the data center industry, you'll find that many of them did not necessarily end up there in a straight line. It usually tends to be some zigs and zags. And for me, it was no different. In the early 2000s, I was working for a manufacturer down in Connecticut. And they had a proprietary technology that worked with water cooled systems. And at that time, data centers, particularly enterprise data centers were being built all over the country. And for the most part, they used evaporative cooling systems. So water-based cooling to eliminate the heat that was being generated from the servers. And so looking at the landscape of possible customers to address, I decided that data centers made a lot of sense for this technology. And so I started essentially creating a business unit within that business that was focused entirely on data centers. And back in, I wanna say maybe 2004, 2005, we got our first data center customer. And at the time, that was Sun Microsystems, which ultimately was bought by Oracle. And so Oracle became our first big customer in the data center space. So yeah, it wasn't necessarily the sector that I had always dreamed about, like a lot of people perhaps say, but I really came to appreciate what was going on because I've always been a student of technology. And I can appreciate that intersection of innovation and technology. And so for me, that's where it began. - So that was 2005. You've been doing this for a while. What do you think has been like the major turning point for the sector? I mean, it's just blown up like crazy as you know, over the last five years, five plus years. - Yeah, even more than that really, I've had the opportunity to work for a manufacturer's rep for a manufacturer, for an IT integrator, and now running my own company. And what I can say is that in every iteration, there are very specific drivers that are impacting the sector. Obviously right now, you literally cannot pick up your phone or turn on the TV or look at any news without artificial intelligence being mentioned. And that is certainly primary driver right now in the data center sector is the ongoing rollout of artificial intelligence by way of its primary engine, which are GPUs or graphic processing units. So that's the latest. But if you dial that back 10 years, cloud was the big driver. And so, even when I think about my time with the IT integrator, we tended to measure deal sizes in power increments, so megawatts. And back then, a megawatt deal for an IT integrator was considered a big deal, one megawatt. Now, when you think about today, these AI campuses that are being announced, seemingly every week, another one is being announced. And those are one gigawatt deals, right? So when you think of the scale of what's going on, it really is quite impressive and that growth is just exponential. - Yeah, and so for you, I mean, there's probably a lot of places where you could be spending your time. What was the turning point where you decided, "Hey, this is, this is what I'm excited about and this is where I want to invest my time and make a difference." - Yeah, well, you know, it's an interesting question and when I founded my company in 2020, my ideal was a much, much larger, you know, say, you know, commercial real estate, healthcare, manufacturing, my vision was that the technologies that I wanted to bring to the market would be impactful in all of these different sectors. But to your point, the growth of the industry has been so astronomical that it, you know, I found that we were spending 90 plus percent of our time in the data center sector and that is both a function of opportunity. Of course, it's a function of network and partnerships and all of the other elements that go into it. But it really is an industry that is growing fast but also is embracing innovation in a way that maybe historically it hasn't necessarily. And so from my viewpoint and with the, you know, the objectives that our company was founded with, which is, you know, to truly help buildings operate in a more resource-efficient and sustainable manner, now is literally the golden age in the data center space because companies that historically haven't been as concerned about those things are absolutely concerned now. And, you know, the ones that, you know, that always have been concerned about those things and I'll highlight, you know, a company like Compass Data Centers as an example, one of our best customers who just have always raised the bar for the rest of the industry with respect to their design, their construction and their operation of data centers, you know, those types of companies are still pushing forward and continuing to challenge everybody to do better. - Yeah, it seems like it's a space that is really embracing innovation and change and where it's possible to feel like and to actually make a difference. And it reminds me of a quote that I saw on your website which says, "I don't wanna end up simply having visited this world and that's something that really resonates with me and I think about that a lot and particularly when it comes to my son but also on the work that I do and how I approach it." But you clearly find that quote really meaningful. You have it on your website. What does it mean to you and how does it fit into your mantra at working personally? - Well, thanks for that. You know, I think it's interesting that you mentioned your son. Of course, I have two sons as well. We've connected a little bit and talked about some of those things previously. And, you know, for me, it was in part that where I was looking to both build and leave a legacy that that was part of the idea. Trust me, you know, founding a company in the middle of an epidemic with two sons in college is not for the faint of heart. - That's right. - Let's hear about that, right? But for me, it was really important to try to build something and set an example for my sons that they could look at. And even if they had no interest necessarily in getting into the data center business or being involved with my business, I wanted to set an example for them in the same way that my wife, Kimberly, who now has two businesses and has been a successful entrepreneur for 20 plus years, has been able to do. So definitely legacy was part of it. And then, you know, that quote also speaks to the impact that we're looking to make. You know, at heart, I'm an environmentalist, I'm somebody who cares about, you know, our planet and wants to help buildings or help operators reduce the impact of the built environment. So it was both of those things, Samar, that's where the inspiration for the quote came from. - Nice, I love that. And thank you for sharing that. And I want to share with you too, by the way, that this podcast, in many ways originated because of conversation that you, Bill Winston-Iskian, I were having where I joked during the middle of the conversation, this is almost like a podcast and I got off that call and I was like, wait a minute, this could be a podcast. We should do this. And here we are, and you're on the show. So I appreciate that and I appreciate that. - Great, great idea, Samar. Just great idea, as I love it. - I love it. - So I want to transition and talk a little bit about WET And what is it that you guys do and, you know, what is it that you guys excel at? I was hoping you could fill in the audience a little bit about this. - Yeah, yeah, I'd be happy to. So, general terms, workplace elemental technologies is a distributor or manufacturer's rep and that's kind of different sides of the same coin, really. But what we have done is we have put together a very carefully curated portfolio of technologies and solutions back in the old days. And again, I'll just mention that when, you know, when I first got into this industry, I was typically one of the youngest guys in the room. And now I'm sad to say that I'm usually one of the older heads in the room. But back in the old days, we used to call them all manufacturers because they actually made something. They made a widget, a product. And in the world that we live in now, meaning in particular, with so many companies leveraging AI, we are offering solutions. And they may not necessarily manufacture something, but they may have a platform, for instance, where they're leveraging artificial intelligence or machine learning to deliver a solution for the customer. So inherently, what we've done is we've put together this portfolio or platform of solutions that connective tissue in that they tend to be uniformly and uniquely sustainable. They tend to be innovative. They tend to drive resource efficiency. And they definitely have connection to artificial intelligence in two separate ways. On the one hand, on the operation side of a data center, we have floor different technologies that comprise what we call our GPU deployment platform. Which essentially is a fancy way of saying, these are best practices, technologies for companies that are deploying GPUs at scale. And then on the other side, as I mentioned, we've got solution providers that are leveraging AI as part of that solution. And so what we try to do, and I think the value that we bring to our customers, is that we're doing a lot of that due diligence and research on the front end. So that when we come and have a conversation or facilitate a presentation or do a demo of a platform, they know coming into that meeting that this is a viable technology. We never waste our customers time, right? We believe so strongly, and I develop relationships with virtually all of the CEOs of the company that we, companies that we work with, because I want to understand them. I want to make sure that our values are aligned. I want to make sure that they're going to care about our customers as much as we do. Because ultimately, that's what we're offering, right? We're offering really innovative, impactful solutions. But then what we're saying to our customers is we are going to make sure that we deliver and the manufacturer or partner delivers exactly what we say we're going to. - Yeah, I mean, given just how much innovation is happening and how much change is happening in the space, it's got to be very difficult for your customers to keep track of even just how, like what's happening out there in this space? What would you say are the trends? Like what are like one or two of the biggest changes that you're seeing? - Yeah, no, that is absolutely true, Samir. The pace of both innovation and change have just, it's accelerated so, so rapidly in the last really two to three years. You know, you referenced, you know, my dear friend, Bill Winstoninsky, and Bill really sees this a lot in his advisory services work on the real estate side of the data center business. I'm seeing it more specifically as it relates to the deployment of GPUs. You probably are aware that they're very energy intensive, right? So that the densities that the racks that the GPUs are sitting in are just going up and up and up and the projections are that that's going to continue. And so with that comes the other side of the coin which is the cooling requirements. And so where we're seeing really significant innovations are in the cooling side of the equation where liquid cooling has an immersion cooling are starting to become the preeminent means of eliminating the heat that the GPUs are generating. So from that perspective, you know, really significant changes. But I think overall what I would also say is that there is a much greater awareness now. And some of this of course, Samir has been driven by bad press where data centers have gotten black eyes and operators of data centers have gotten black eyes in different communities for a range of reasons, you know, starting with, you know, the fact that they are energy intensive. And if they were or are using a water-based evaporative cooling, they can be quite water intensive or water usage would be quite intensive as well. And so I think I want to believe and I think that we're seeing progress in some of these areas where companies that traditionally may not have been as concerned about sustainability in the broader sense of the word are starting to demonstrate tangibly that they are concerned about those things. You know, I'll highlight an organization that we partner with Green Building Initiative. And actually that they held a data center event in Chicago earlier this year, which led to our meeting through mutual connections. And Green Building Initiative has put together a rating system called their Green Globes rating system. And particularly for data centers, it's achieved something that, you know, other organizations haven't necessarily been able to do, which it's given a data center company, an operator, a pathway to be aspirational to say, we want to do better. And so they meet those data center operators where they are. And so they'll be able to get credit in the form of Green Globes, this rating system, for the good things that they're doing. And, you know, I've been really struck by how many companies that I had never really seen be all that concerned about sustainability in the broader sense, participating actively with this organization. I'll also say, you know, as a footnote that they honored my company workplace elemental technologies as their organizational member of the year. So clearly, you know, I must have been saying a lot of nice things about them because they honored this earlier this year. And we're most grateful for that. But as I said, you know, I believe in their mission. And I think the organization is doing a wonderful job. And it is representative of some changes in the sector. Yeah, I saw that by the way, congratulations. I think you guys won that in October some time. So the industry clearly facing some challenges and sustainability area, GBI, and your company, providing solutions to that challenge. But what is a challenge that you guys are facing or a face as a company? I mean, you mentioned you started the company in the middle of the pandemic. Yeah, I mean, I think the, you know, for us, the challenges were as a small business getting the larger entities that we're dealing with to, you know, to listen to what we're saying, to be open to the messages. And, you know, what really has, you know, I think has made the biggest difference to me is that as we've continued to build our portfolio of partners, these solution providers, they have, you know, they have demonstrated just such confidence in me and our organization in helping them to establish a foothold or grow their presence in the data center industry. And so, you know, I think that is really, for us is what's changed is we've just developed this wonderful offering that, you know, that is comprehensive and allows a data center operator to look at a wide range of areas, whether it's, you know, utilizing an AI enabled power and cooling optimization platform like Ecosense, which is based in the UK, working with, you know, with types of products that are inherently sustainable, but also perform better. And so, examples of that would be a company like K&N Global Filtration, which, you know, everybody who's an auto enthusiast, remembers K&N filters because they put them in their motorcycle or in their BMW or whatever. But about five, six years ago, K&N moved to the commercial side of the business and they manufactured. HVAC filters for an Apple data center in Reno, Nevada, and the results of these washable filters are really remarkable. So if you think about it, you know, if you're swapping out your HVAC filter, you know, every quarter, and all of that waste is going to a landfill, and now you're replacing it with something that can be washed and should last 10-plus years, it's a fabulous sustainability story. And because of the way those filters are manufactured, you end up with some energy savings on top of it. So, you know, that's a, that's representative of the type of technology that we like to work with where it's disruptive, it's energy efficient, it's inherently sustainable. And ultimately, anybody who looks at it, we're not selling really. What we're doing is we're giving, we're putting really good information in the hands of really smart people, and saying, "What would you do?" I mean, you know, think from that perspective, and that's really what we try to do. Yeah, very cool. I mean, you guys work with some of the, some of the biggest names in the sector, and you mentioned, you know, you were like the little guy and coming in and working with these really big players. Is there any advice that you would have for someone else that's coming in in a similar situation that's like starting out? They're company. It's an interesting thing. I think the, you know, this is going to sound a little like a cliche, but what we're trying to do is, is operate as, as more of an advisor. These are consultative sales, right? And so, you know, people talk about trusted advisors. And really, that's what, what we are trying to do on a day in day out basis is, is not necessarily transact, you know, a sale, but we're trying to build relationships as a trusted partner. And I just think long term, that's the only thing that's going to work. And, you know, Samir, you know, you mentioned something, and, you know, for somebody trying to get into the, into the industry, it is a lot harder. You know, back in the day, I referenced that, I referenced that, that, that story where Sun Microsystems was our first customer. I am almost positive that I reached out by email blindly and, you know, ended up through that, developing a relationship with Dean Nelson, who has gone on to run infrastructure for just about, you know, everybody in the business, and, and has co as co founded one of the most influential organizations, the infrastructure masons of which we are remembers. But, but back in the day, that was, that was viable. And, you know, I, I don't know that, that very many folks are, are necessarily responding to blind emails these days, right? So either I was really lucky or really good. I'm going to air on the side of probably it was really lucky. But yeah, I think today it's more about participating in the industry, showing up at events. And, you know, and part of the battle and, and Bill and I laugh about this because we've both been around a while now. It is just showing up again and again and just being there, being present. And, you know, eventually people learn your name and they know who you are and they realize that, you know, you, you want to do good things. Yeah. And that kind of takes me to my next topic, which is collaboration. I mean, anyone that kind of knows you and where you kind of stand with in this, this sector, this industry knows you're really big on collaboration. Why, why is that important to you? And what do you think stakeholders in the data center space can do to work better together? Because I feel like when I'm out there going to conferences, talking to people, it still seems like there's a certain disjointedness within the industry. And I think people are still trying to figure out who's all out there. What does everybody do? How does all fit together? So we'd love for you to comment on that a little bit and how you think about it. Yeah. Well, you're right, Samir. It is a, it is a subject that's near and dear to my heart. And I think that when, when you ask the question about, you know, what, what has changed, whether it's for my company for the industry as a whole, I would say that collaboration in, in both instances, is no longer optional. It, it's absolutely critical. And you've seen evidence of that with some of the biggest names in the industry, perhaps, you know, traditionally, have viewed themselves as competitors are figuring out that because of, you know, ridiculously long lead time on specific items that, that data centers require or just the, the ability to orchestrate these massive projects and that the, the critical timelines that are associated with them, collaboration becomes vital. And, you know, I think for, again, for, for a small company, collaboration is like a force multiplier, right, where, where we at, you know, I have a network of partner companies, some of them small, some of them very large. And we, we collaborate on projects all the time. And we, we are out there figuring out how we can bring the best solutions to customers, but we're doing that together. I mean, literally today, Samir, I, I put together three CEOs of partner companies that we work with and we've got a, we've got a call coming up to talk about, you know, global collaboration. How can we all help one another, you know, on a much larger scale? So it is something that's near and dear to me. I think the literally a requirement in the data center industry now, but it's also for me is just I enjoy working closely with partners. I think that's just a one, one of the most enjoyable parts of the business. And so, so that's, that's been a strategy, an intentional strategy. And I have seen the, the fruits of that over and over and over and over again. So again, you know, I would strongly recommend anybody was thinking about getting in the businesses, you know, learning all the different types of the companies that are operating in the industry and figure out how you can collaborate and partner. Yeah, I love that. Definitely something. As you know, we spend a lot of time thinking about here at NRFs. I want to ask you, because you mentioned it a few times in our conversation today, AI comes up and I know all sorts of different bases and for all sorts of different reasons when you're talking about data centers. But how do you, how do you see AI impacting sustainability and data centers? Because it can be a, I think it can be a negative and it can be a positive. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so I like to stick to the positive. So we'll address that side of it. So because of the of the energy and the significant energy requirements that that the deployment of artificial intelligence is generating again, by way of the GPUs and then the corresponding cooling requirements that come with that, it, it absolutely is creating an environment where operators have to be thinking about sustainability measures. Okay. And you know, it starts more on, you know, I think, I think historically people are thinking more about sustainability from the standpoint of, you know, is it clean energy that's being sourced? And I know that's an area that you spend a lot of time talking to clients about. But we, of course, are viewing it a couple of steps down and it's more about, you know, you, you've now built this asset. How are you operating that asset? And can you, can you reduce the overall impact, you know, whether it's from a resource standpoint, whether it's from, you know, a carbon emissions standpoint, there are a lot of different ways to, to, or a lot of different approaches to that. But that, you know, that for me is it's sort of the best of times, right? Where because of, because of this, this massive growth, large scale AI factories, as people like to call them, there has to be a corresponding evaluation of sustainable technologies on the operating side. And so from, from my, you know, from my viewpoint, again, we can week out, those are the conversations that we're having. Really interesting here. And yeah, a lot of conversation centered around power, renewable energy in particular, and bring your own power for data centers. And we have a bunch of folks who are focused on those topics. You know, I feel like we can't have a conversation about data centers without talking about something that's been coming up a lot in the, in the news recently, which is the idea of, you know, this, this data center bubble. And we're going to test your ability to predict the future here a little bit because this episode won't air for about a month, I think. And so, you know, do you, how do you see that? And do you think there is a data center bubble? What do you think is like the longer term view of this space? Sure. So longer term view, incredibly bullish. To be clear, no, I don't think there's a, there's a data center bubble. Now, if we want to talk a little bit, if we want to narrow the view a little bit and talk about artificial intelligence, AI companies, and some of the, the, the infrastructure costs, Investments that are being made right now. I think two things can be true at the same time So I think there are always going to be winners and losers and I think that some of Companies that are making these massive investments, you know, they they may run out of runway, right and they're they're very well Maybe some you know some some upheaval that comes with that, but you know overall When you look at some of the AI companies revenues and What they're starting to frank out in terms of revenues and how quickly that's happening in the broader scheme of things I think ultimately, you know, whether it's the financial community the investment community That's what everybody's focused on is you know relative to the infrastructure costs Are the revenues going to follow and I would say overall the answer is yes But again two things can be true at the same time and maybe there is a little bit of an AI bubble that has more to do with valuations, you know get getting ahead of themselves than anything else, but it in terms of the the overall trajectory of the industry You know everything that we do these days is predicated on the data that's flowing through our mobile phones, right? I mean if we think about it just in in that regard and I just don't see that slowing down anytime soon Right the the trajectory is continues to be you know up and to the right and you know whether it's You know looking at the at the latest, you know data center deal where aligned data centers was bought for essentially $40 billion dollars, which set a new record You know that that just shows you that the the capital markets still view this as the industry to be in so yeah I'm I'm extremely bullish on the industry as a whole I think I am too and I think I I like to have a longer term view of things. I don't think you can you know Judge these things or or characterism and just you know one or two or three or even six month increments I mean, I think anyone back in the early 2000s that was talking about the tech bubble. Well, okay Let's zoom out a little bit and see where we are. Was it really a bubble with tech a bubble? Tech is absolutely not a bubble in the long term and I think data centers will turn out to be the same as well I like to end by just asking you You know For your thoughts on what's something that you think listeners or anyone in the data center industry can look forward to Yeah, well that's a that's a wonderful question full of optimism and I like that so You know what what what what I think what I'd say similar is it feels like every week I have a conversation with another company that has a technology or a solution That is just amazing innovative impactful You know game changing right and I and they but they they haven't yet you know made an imprint into the data center space And so they're they're talking to me or they're they're talking to to to our buddy Bill Winston-inski or And the point is that the pace of innovation continues to accelerate and I you know that's what gets me fired up I get excited about bringing new Innovative and impactful technologies into the space and I guess what I'm saying is that I think what people have to look forward to Are just some really awesome Technologies, you know, whether it's you know whether it's you know enabling data center operators to have a WUE water usage effectiveness of zero or even be net positive where we're now giving water back to water scares You know decreasing the overall cooling load of a data center by you know 10 15% because of the technology that we deploy There are just some really really exciting on the horizon and one of one of the parts of my job That that just gets me so excited is to be able to have those early stage conversations with companies that Are bringing something unique to the market so I that that's what I'm excited about smear and I think that I think there is some Wonderful innovation on the horizon that's only going to to benefit the industry and and reduce The impact of data centers overall. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think those are definitely topics that get Me excited conversations get me excited and things that I I geek out on and I know you geek out on his well always so much fun Chatting with you and again, thank you so much for for being on the show and I hope to see you soon Thanks for your time. Sounds great. Same here. Thanks so much. Really enjoyed it Thank you for listening to uptime now if this episode sparked an idea pass it along to someone in new network You can leave a comment. I'd love to hear your thoughts ideas and recommendations for guests Till next time. Thank you and remember to like and subscribe