Ep169 - Jay Jack, from Next Level Dogs

Welcome to Life with your dog podcast. Our focus is educating dog owners enthusiast and dog trainers about ideas and how to train, manage, live and thrive with our dogs. To teach dogs to live in our society while our dogs teach us how to live in the nail. I'm your host, Panos and Ignacio and I'm your co-host, Luke Badman. Thank you for joining us and we hope you enjoy the show. Welcome back another episode of Life with your dog. My name is Panos and I'm joined by Zoom, by Jay Jack from Next Level Dogs, all the way in, oh, I don't even know where you're from. Where are you from, bro? Portland, Maine. Portland, Maine. Welcome to the show, bro. How are you? I'm the youngest of the country. I'm good, man. How are you doing? I'm very good. I'm very good. All this well, you know, actually it's the beginning of autumn, but we had the hottest day yesterday. So we've had a couple of nice warm days. Hopefully when you come down for the seminar this weekend, it's not too hot for the dogs because they're either not going to perform or if they're out of control, then they can perform very nicely because they're going to be bloody tired. Yeah, yeah. It's so weird. Like we're in the middle of like this drag along, not bad winter, but won't go away. Yeah. It's actually really mild as far as our winters go, but it just won't stop. Like it's like snow's a little bit and it's just cold enough that you don't want to do. It's not like blisteringly cold or like super frozen. It's like it keeps your hope alive. You're like, this is it. We're getting out of winter, but then it like snows a little bit. And you're like, dude, stop. Yeah. I heard some of where either the seasons have to change and they have to like shift them by the months or they want to add an extra season because things are all over the shop. So yeah, it's really, all I know is that like unrelated to dogs like a year and a half ago, I started building this motorcycle, which is not something I'm good at. Like I've never had a bike. I'm not mechanical. I do not know how to do any event stuff. But my dad was into bikes. And so like I've been meaning for like the last 30 years to like rebuild his bike that when I was a kid, like I remember his bike. And like I've been meaning to do it and then just happened upon a set of circumstances and I was like, fuck here it is. There was like some parts that I could have for free. And I was like, all right, this is a sign. I gotta fucking do it. And so like all last winter, I was like trying to get it ready for the summer and it was a shit show and I couldn't get it pulled off. And then right like I got it started and like the day I got it started blizzard. Like I'm not getting started. Did anybody's riding around in flannel shirts like what a mild fall this has been. What a great fall this is. I was riding around and I was like, fuck. And then the day I got it started, just like the hammers was snowed as shit ever since. Like it's really interesting that especially with dog people, dog trainers in particular. Most people have their training and their dog training as their hobby. But when it's your full time job, it's not a hobby. You're like working even if you're working your own dog and you do it just for the joy and the fun of it. It is still on the clock where it's nice and I'm I think very valuable for trainers to be finding hobbies outside of dogs just so you don't burn out and then you can keep those skills sharp. - Yeah, it's interesting 'cause for me, jujitsu and dogs are both, I mean, they're both avenues of income I suppose, but I'd want to know view either of them like that. Like I don't think about money, which is an incredibly annoying borderline area to say and it's not because I've got a lot of it. It's just 'cause I don't care. - Yeah, yeah. - See what I mean? Like I've never had a lot of money, but I was poor in my whole life, like brutal fucking poor in my whole life. But like because of that, I've never worried about not having money. Like somebody's like, what if it doesn't work out? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, it's a good idea. - You know, like things are a good option to live. - I'll just make money, dude. You don't even make it exactly. - Exactly. - I'll just do you know what I mean? Like as long as I can stand up, I can make money. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - Like, so like, I can go work security anywhere in the fucking world and be fine. Like I can, I have a couple of ways of like jobs I could do like I could train dogs, I could teach dudes who but even if all that falls apart, dude, I could just go to a bar and get a job bouncing. Like I'm never gonna not have money. Like if you can scrap, you can make money. Like I'm never not gonna have money, you know? - I love that, yes. - I'm like, I'll just go take yours. Like fucking. (laughing) Like I'm only living part of this society because it's can be like, I live inside the law because it's turned out to be convenient to do it. - Yes. - I'm fine, like I'll be fine. Like I'm never gonna not have food. Like I'll be fine, you know? But that gives me kind of this freedom to like not dress about it. - Yes, that's a good point actually. And I agree as well. Is just, do you have children? - Oh God no. - Okay. - Well that's like true, we adopted a kid. - Okay, let's cool. - Yeah, yeah. But they were an adult so it doesn't matter. - Okay, it's the same thing. Like we raised them like we got them when they were like 14 or so, - Okay. - And I'm living in my gym and like I raised the kid for sure. But like we didn't adopt them until they were already like 22 when we adopted them. - That is awesome. That is really really cool. - I mean it's like, it's one of those things where you don't think about it because they're an adult so you don't think there's a reason. - Yeah. - But the kid fights as well. Like you know, it's like a little miniature version of me right, like he fights as well. And so like there was a fight he got kind of hurt. And I remember both of us were like faced with this idea of like it turned out not to be bad, but in that moment you don't know. And it's like, dude I've had this kid for years now. Like that's my kid. And like somebody's gonna push me out of the hospital room and start making decisions. She didn't mean like not knowing him, having no relationship, like ditched him when he was a kid. - You know cool. - But they can go back in and start making. - Yeah, okay. - So we were like, this is no longer like a cute acknowledgement of familial time. It's like this is important. Like, I get hit by a bus. Like people are gonna start arguing over my shit. Like no, man he should get it. So it's like, wow. - Yeah, we actually, we, so now we do have a kid. - That's amazing. That's beautiful. The reason why I asked is because I had similar mentality. I'm like, you know, energy is like a unit of energy. Money is like a unit of energy. Comes when it needs it. It's not there when you don't need it, but then it makes you hustle to become better at another skill so you can, so I, you know, it could be a bit more of a game. And it's harder to keep it like that when you have, like my son's like three and a half years old. So when he was a little baby, baby, like that, that existential angst was something that no one told me to prepare for. At a, when he was around six months old, it was like, oh, my life is not mine anymore. And he, like it's his now. And what I do isn't just, I just, you know, I'll make it work. It's like if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, then what happens to him and, and my wife? So, and I think it changed and it can bring on more stress and anxiety, which then changes the way that you behave. And that's very much, we can connect that to dogs. Obviously, it's just that you want to still be making enough money to make things run, but not be so held on to it where you become crippled by it. And that's that balance, right? - It was, it was an interesting, it was an interesting background of life, right? Because until 2003 or so, like I'm a criminal. Do you know what I mean? Like fighting is illegal. Like you can't, you can't do it. Like it might as well have been dog fighting. It was like, I mean, it literally was in the same vein as in people know it goes on. And like even in one force meant had a little bit of a, like guys would show, you know what I mean? Like it was, it was known about, but nobody did anything about it. It's like technically illegal, but nobody really did anything. And but it was like, my whole life was just like, I was never on the like, oh, you're gonna have a bank account. Like you got a stack of money under a gun somewhere. You're like, there's no like, you know, I'm saving for the future. Like you don't know, I dropped out of the seventh grade. Like I'm like, my life was not on a trajectory of safety conscious forward progressive future thinking, you know what I mean? And so like I just got used to living in this. There is no set future. There is no safety. Like it's just, that's just, that was life. - That draw you into the present moment. Like we, do you feel like, so go ahead? - Oh, you kind of have to be a little zen. - Yeah. - Or stupid. You don't even want to do. I don't know which one. - But I think there's, there is like a beauty to that. Like even though most people listening going, oh my god, like criminal life and not falling the rules. And there's like, there's a whole back source. It's not like just out of nowhere you decided to like, let's get again, we're getting against society. It's that, you know, those are the cards that you would dealt. This is just the life you live and you've pulled yourself out of it. One really cool thing that I, from the things that I've listened to like podcasts and videos I watch from you is that, you've brought that mindset and then brought it forth forward towards either dogs and martial arts, which is very much operating from that mindset, which is the most natural mindset to be in in a way, right? Because like civilization society is relatively new in conjunction to our genetics and our psychology. - 100%. And it's also one of those things where like, You don't realize it, but like that fighting culture, it's like people know that they're missing a connection to it and know that they're supposed to be connected to it, to the degree that like, man, you know, like a fancier sounding than just like illegal fighting, like fancier sounding, like the book of five rings, the art of war, you know what I mean? There's all these books that like are, they're like combat books. They're like, they're discussions of warfare. - Yes. - What people now read those in like business. - Yes. - So like all these people like know that there's a piece missing in modernity and turn back and go like, man, and then look at people like us like, okay, you're the guys that are living that way. So like, what can, and you wind up if you don't die, if you don't get sucked into the bad shit or die, then it's like you end up with a set of knowledge that regular people are like, man, I need to know it, you know. You know, so it's like it's really weirdly interesting to now be like looked at like a teacher. 'Cause until my 30s, I was like, you're a piece of shit. Just a scumbag. Like guys that people that took a class for me knew me to be a good teacher. And people that interacted with me one on one knew me to be, you know, articulate or intelligent or whatever, right? But like your general Joe Shmo, there was no Facebook, there was no, nobody could get online and Google me and watch some really insightful video I made about a intense subject. Like that would didn't exist. All they saw was just this tattooed, shaped head, fucking dickhead looking guy. Dear to me. And people like, what's that guy about? And like, I fight at a cage for money. They were like, oh, yeah, that's basically what I thought he was going to be like. So you know what I mean? Like, I think there's two quotes that remind me of that one of them is like, you know, civilize the mind but make savage to body. And the other one is nobody loves the warrior until the enemies are at the gates. And that we can, if you've walked the darker side of society and come at the other end, not incarcerated and until alive. And also with an intention that, no, we're moving forward because we want a better life and that, you know, even if someone is walking a dark path, you shouldn't shun them and go, you're a naughty boy. It should be that look, that's your circumstances right now. But do we want something better? And same with dogs, you know, when someone has a dog that is, you know, we'll call them naughty, but they're just doing everything that they will bloody bred to do. And then we're all confused. Like, why does my dog do that? I'm like, were you chose the dog that was supposed to do that? And most importantly, because like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of discussions that I have with people about paradigms when they first get in. And I'm like, there's nothing wrong with your dog. Your dog's not wrong and your dog's not bad. Your dog is inconvenient for this society. Yes. Not a place. Yes. Not wrong. They're not wrong. They're not bad. They're not broken. They're exactly like there's supposed to be. They are perfect. And they're awesome. Now, we got to figure some shit out because like, unfortunately, like I don't think I spent a lot of time as a child thinking I was fucked up and we're broken and whatever, but it turns out I'm not, like it turns out I'm just different. Like I'm not like most people, but there's nothing wrong with that. I would argue now that it's actually kind of cool. Like I like what I am, you know? But because I'm not like everybody else, you have this urge to go like it's broke. If it's not the same, it's broke. And then people come in with this, like my dog is broken. My dog needs to be fixed. No, I need to fix my dog, guess. And I'm like, man, in a lot of cases now look, there are some dogs that are, you know, genetically or spiritually broken from events and lifestyle. Agreed. Agreed. They need help. They need to be fixed in the, in the air quotes sense of like something is wrong and needs to be rectified. Well, usually it's not the dog. Usually it's the circumstance that the dog is living it. Yes. That needs to be rectified. And people have this weird attitude of like my dog is broken and they need help fixing and I'm like the first thing is you need to understand your dog's not broken. Your dog's fucking amazing and perfect. You need help showing your dog how to navigate the world that found itself in. Because this world they made for people like us anymore. Like this world's not in the battle breed dogs and shit. Like it's not great. It's like we're not in the like we're born in a wrong time. Yeah. Like that dog would have been revered in the daytime and he's not now. Exactly. And he shunned. Yeah. We got to do. Well, it's like us had Josh Moran on the show last week and all chatting with the Mally or the Dutch ship that he has now was from his friend who was running the hills in the mountains protecting the property, you know, and had, you know, and he said that he had that dog had to have life bites protecting whatever was on the property. And now when the man had to live in a normal society sort of way like I have a house and house mates and stuff. And it's like, oh my god, this dog's out of control now. And Josh having, you know, having the dog in his ownership now and the dog's living the life that can be we can fulfill that dog's needs. But he's not just letting just Joe below walk through this into the house and, you know, give Josh a big hug without anything happening like there's a bit of management, some training and whatever. So yeah, it isn't that it does frustrate me the most, you know, like, oh, let's just say for example, hypothetically panels or what an aggressive man would just say because I don't like the way he says things. And look at his mannerisms, blah, blah. And if I was at someone's house and there was a home invasion and I was successful to use my aggression and violence to stop the threat, I am a bloody hero. So if I get into a blue with some guy down the street just for over something, you know, let's say an inegotistical battle and I get into the fight and win the fight, I am now a criminal. So in what context is your dog's good behavior, walking down the street, some man grabs, tries to snatch my ladies bag and if my dog bit that guy, what a hero dog. What man walks past the hug my wife, dog bites, bad dog. And it's like, but the context of the dog, it's the exact same thing. Just context. Well, I see, it can be a bit different and how does the dog navigate that world without us having to be able to, you know, I mean, it's tough. I think we're getting into interesting stuff, but I think it's tough because people have started. We've done this really weird thing with dogs where we simultaneously infantilize them. Like we make them a little bit, they beat ducks. Like they're not even like, like, do you know what I mean? They're not autonomous, sentient, fully formed, you know, emotionally depth. Like they don't have, they're like, they're just baby dogs. They're like, we're pretty, pretty dogs, you know? And at the same time, we expect them to have this level of cognition that isn't just like obviously above their ability. Like our cognitive abilities are greater than theirs. It's like we're not even expecting them to have like humanish characteristics. We expect them to have like not just human intelligence, but good judgment. Like that dude was just kidding. He wasn't really being serious about like he was end fighting and you're like, what are you talking about? The dude that was my wife's friend, but snuck up on her and went brah, but like to like ha ha prank. My dog is supposed to not only understand the interview nuance of, but like also that guy's just kidding. Like how can we do both of those things? It blows my mind that they can hold both of those expectations. I expect you to be this little infantile toddler no aggression. There's no drive for any. You just want to like suck along a little thing and lay on the couch all day and do nothing and you want no confrontation and you want no conflict and you want nothing to overcome and nothing to prove yourself to. Like you want none of that, right? You're just a little baby and also I want you to know this nuance difference between familial ties and who's kidding and who's not and who's been not who meant it. And like guys got a secret. You should know even if they're acting cool, but they're not cool. You should have bitten that guy because you should have been able to know because you're a dog and you're like, what the fuck? How can you have both incorrect versions at the same time? Yes. Yes. About the same dog makes no sense. Whether we do the same thing to the dog by saying, oh no, he didn't bite him. He just nipped him. It was just a nip. I'm like, well, Jay was in my space. I only jabbed him. It was just a little jab. It's like, you could have given me a heavy heart. Right. That would be the same thing. Never a word. Yeah. Me trying to tell the cops, I only slapped him. Has never worked. Yeah. Exactly. Like, dude, I always slapped him. What do you say? Like, I could have knocked a shit out of him. I just slapped him. Yeah. My brother. He's fine. The thing that we're talking about from your past, we're called the past life, right? In that context, like, yeah, I got slapped because, like, that, that holds meaning within the situation. Yeah. I was a bit disrespectful. I copped the slap. I apologize. I stepped over the line. And why would I press charges? That was just me communicating. And again, I'm not, because I'm not saying we should be slapping people if you disagree with them. It's just that there's a difference in that context. Even when the dog was to give the little nip because he's giving a social correction because the other dog overstepped the bounder or person overstepped. the boundary. Should we say, all if the dog, no, no, your dog punctured that person and bit them, there was intent. And now we can say that the nip in the bite are different, but you can't just, first we shouldn't downplay it. Your dog displayed aggression towards somebody walking into your house. Like, because if we don't fix it now, even if it was circumstantial, it can get worse if the dog perceives it to be successful. It's got to get worse. Of course, right? Now, sometimes it happens and you can mitigate and rectify within the moment and the dogs like, I made a bad call, my bad, only because we made that call though. And if we say, oh, but he was only, and if we make the excuse, along with putting them both the nip and the hard bite in the same, like, those are two extremes. We want to be in the middle to say, well, why did it happen? Can we put some context to it along with how do we fix it? It's like, there's this thing and tell me if I get off on the wrong topic or whatever, like, no topic we're gone. We're just, we're gone. I just talked about you. I love it. So there's this thing. It's like a continuum of force, right? It's a word we refer to in defensive tactics a lot where you talk about what you need to do to get a problem solved, right? So you shouldn't shoot somebody if you could discuss your way out of it. So like, there's a force continuum. So there's like this ladder of escalation of force, right? Dogs negotiate through threats of violence. And I don't want to say dogs negotiate through threats of violence. Humans do too. All animal, right? All social animals negotiate through threats of violence. And the reason that they do that, we are exactly the same without language. The reason that we do that is because the reason we have the ability as people to avoid getting into that funnel of activity is because we can speak. We can use our words. I can say pardon me, but if you're almost done with that meal, I sure would like to share it. No offense. I don't mean to do you know what I mean? If you don't mind, might I, you know what I mean? And like they can go, well, I wasn't gonna, but since you're being called and we can discuss and never get into a threat of violence scenario because it's a little bit like this is a weird thing. But like if you hear the terms like toxic masculinity or like rape culture, one of the discussions, because this is shit I'm involved with because of defensive tactics. Like I teach a lot of women self defense. So it's a place that my head space is very familiar with dealing with these ideas. And the idea is that like in toxic culture, we assume a yes and require a no. And this is like toxic masculinity culture. A guy walks up and like, hey, baby, you obviously want my arm around you. And they're just gonna do it and you have to go. They assume a yes and they make it go like not I bro, no thank you. And if you don't say it for if you go, no thank you. They're like, you don't mean that shit and then they keep going. And they make you say a no that is convincing to them that you seriously do mean it. Right. And that's obviously a toxic situation. But this is where almost all beings are without language. Like language I have the ability to assume a no and ask for a yes. Yeah. I can walk up and go, hi, how are you? Would you mind if I said I can assume you want nothing? I can assume you do not want my hand on you. I can assume you do not want to mention it. Yes. Yes. Ask you and you can say yes, actually, I would like a drink and that would be wonderful. And I can be cool. I can assume a no and request a yes. But we have to have language to do that. Yeah. And in nature, there's no like dude, if you're eating a bone and I want to fucking some of the bone, I have to be like, I'm not going to get it. But do you know what I mean? Like I have to go. I'm going to act like you're going to give it to me. Yes. I'm going to walk up and like the lowest level of that potential violence is the body language. Even if you're like, you're getting there. Go. 100%. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. You have to, I'm going to put you in a position where I am assuming that yes. And you're going to tell me no and you're going to not just have to tell me no, you're going to have to tell me no at a level that I'm thinking of, right? And so like there's this idea. It's a little bit like playing poker. There's this idea where social animals don't ideally naturally well natural selected dogs are predisposed people to are predisposed to not wanting to actually get into mortal combat. They're they don't want to actually fight all the way. So all of these lower level threats of violence are this idea of trying or bluffing each other. We're trying to go further up the ladder without getting to the end. And so it's like two people with their fingers on the button of a bomb are usually really polite to one another because if I fuck with you you're going to push it. So we get real polite because we're trying to avoid going to the end of the escalator. Yeah. And it foxes it up when somebody isn't like that. When a person's just I'll push the button myself just to say fuck you. You're like, well, how do we go? How do this where we run into like with terrorist issues? Like how do we negotiate with somebody that's willing to run to the end? But most dog communication is this lower level bluff and call type shit. Because like if you look at it, the analogy I always use is poker or something, right? Like if we go all the way to the end and we legit straight up fight not to not to solve an issue, not to negotiate, but like one of us is going to get ended and then there will be no problem, right? Yeah. That's like laying the cards down and whoever's hand is the best hand. Yeah. Most poker hands are one like that. Well, as poker hands are one with I push a bunch of chips out. You go, fuck and you fold my chips. My cards may not have been good enough to be you. But we're never going to know because you fucking fold it. Do you know? And so there's this like raise I call I raise and then somebody folds and then we never lay our cards down. So there's legitimately a continuum, right? So if you I lay it out for people, it goes stillness, pressure and pressure I think of as three spot lights, right? Like I described it to people with three spot lights. There's a spotlight in your face, your eyes and your chest. So you'll see a dog like this, right? Like a dog's chewing on a bone or something and another dog walks up and you'll see I'm going and then they stop that stillness. This is the first they push out two chips and you have to go, I fold and you walk away or you go, no, I'm still in and you I see your two chips and I stay with you. Yeah. And the dog goes, I look, I'm going to push out two more chips. I push out. I'm going to raise you two more chips. Pressure. So I turn my eyes to you. There's more pressure than if I don't. If I turn my eyes and then my head and then my whole chest and then that pushes in like this, that's pressure. Yes. So there's three spot lights, right? So if pressure is the next, wrong up the ladder, then there's sound, then there's touch. Now touch looks like violence, but it's ritualized violence. It's mock violence. They're not trying to do damage. They're trying to not get all the way into the fight. They pushed all their chips out and went, okay, I'm putting everything in it. Like then the next step is just who's got the best hand. That's all there is. Because in a lot of situations, you'll see two dogs up on their back feet, clack in and fucking air snapping and first coming out. And then there's no real damage. You're like little bitty punctures and stuff, but like they can break bones, like they can tear flesh. There's little damage like that. It's because they're engaging in ritualized combat. They are still trying not to go all the way to the end. And so I get the idea of like it wasn't real. As in, we're trying to diagnose the difference between a dog that is negotiating. He's escalating his negotiations higher up the ladder than his appropriate. And that's a problem. Because if you have a dog that just like goes from first thought of any conflict goes right to touch. Now they do that because they tried lower levels and it didn't work. They touched a dog and it worked. They skipped a couple levels. They touched a dog and it works and they're like, dude, they learn, push all your chips and everybody folds. And also it's not like the dogs are living in a traditional sort of family pack. We'll say like even a village pack where all the dogs are fully familiar with each other. It's like last time this happened by the way, it's like it's a new dog every time. It's like, well, I'm going to go straight to touch because I can't afford the conversations. Can't fuck around. I gotta go as high. Every dog's are generally a good genetically well-read raised dog will go like I will go as far as I need to. Like as low as I can as far as I need to. And if they get well socialized, other dogs learn to respond. And then we see negotiations at the lower levels and everybody tolerates it. People will take stillness and eye contact and even a little bit of sound and be like, that's cool. That's good. That's good social skills. Yes. Well, then when a dog touches without without damage or damage is incidental. Like if I get pissed at you and I throw a plate at you because I'm mad and I want to show you how mad I am, I'm not trying to fucking kill you. I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to do the play on the opposite side of the wall till like so you weren't throwing at me, but the chip of the of the plate. Nicked me. It might put you bleeding. Jay made panels bleed and all this like, well, that was an incident to him. Yes. No, I can't say it's not my fault. I threw the fucking plate. Of course. Of course. But the goal of what I did was not to cause you enough damage that you could no longer. Yeah. Not you I'm ending negotiations by damaging you to the point where you're not able to negotiate anymore. That's not the point. The contact was me pushing the chips out. Now, if you got hurt in the process, that's an acceptable unfortunate side effect of the negotiating, but it wasn't my goal, do you know what I mean? And so people have this weird thing where they see dogs negotiating, like touching, but purposefully and intentionally not rolling all the way to the end of the line and straight up fighting. And they will equate, ritualized violence with real violence. And I know those dogs is having done the same thing or had the same intention. And that's wrong. Yeah, that's wrong. Like, those are two very different dogs. But we're removed from that there, right? Because of our laws and political correct sort of, you know, way that we're moving. And yeah, we're becoming all civilized and domestic. And all that sort of stuff, it's taking away from that rawness of what it is to be the organism within the environment. And because, like I just say, if I'm with, I don't really do everything. So let's say we lived 15 years ago. And I saw two of the boys were disagreeing to a point where there was a tussle. No one does anything. We watch them. It's not going to a point. No one's dying today. Like unless it's an accident, but it's most likely nine-hundred percent not gonna happen. Let them sort it out. They get up, one lost, one won. They shake, they hug, cool. Get your drink, continue on. That was appropriate for the next interaction and their relationship within the crowd. - Yes. - And it's not like that. When I was a kid in school, this was late '70s, early '80s and Louisiana, right? Like when I was a kid in school, two kids get in a fight. And literally the teacher would go, hey, take that outside. (laughing) - And your nose. (laughing) - The lesson wasn't to fight. It was you're not supposed to make noise in the building. - Yep. - That shit is what you do outside. You run in-screen and wrestle in fight and you get rowdy in the playground. You don't get rowdy in the classroom. - Yes. - But you guys are having a non-classroom away to discussion, take that shit out of the wall. And it was like great. But I remember like the world changed around me and I remember the first time some dude, it was like in Boston and I had never left the South in the South, they'll scrap, they'll fight. And like I was in Boston and I was on a bus and some dude was just fucking eyeball and I'm like, dude I grew up, like I contact was a thing. Me and I mean like the three second rule when I was a little kid, my dad, I was a little kid, my dad was like, listen, three seconds. If somebody stares you in a face for longer than three seconds, they wanna fight or they wanna fuck. And you have to figure out which one it is 'cause you don't wanna make that mistake, right? I was like, I remember, I was like, that's, I was a little kid, dude. I remember being in like a restaurant, like a fucking, like a diner somewhere in the morning and like eating breakfast with my dad. And my dad like, like nudge me and go, hey, you gonna let that go? And I'm like, what? And then you realize there's a kid fucking staring at you. And he's like, that's going on, man. You like, don't let that go. And I was like, oh, okay. So like I wasn't paying attention. I'm like, oh, sorry, I didn't know probably, I'll take care of it. And like, handle it, you know? And it's like, that's the way I grew up, which again, clearly I'm so fucking out of place now, it's ridiculous. And I had to learn how to like, I had to learn how to do displacement behaviors. Like, I had to learn how to like control my emotions and she'll like, I had to learn all the shit that I teach dogs. I teach the dogs that should I do like. 'Cause I love that one. - Yeah, to learn, exactly. I can't fight at a stop light either when we're waiting for the traffic to cross. Like, and I really would like to, I really wanna punch that kid in the fucking head 'cause he's annoying the shit out of me. Like, I really wanna smash him, but I can't, I'm not supposed to. And I have to, like, the lessons I learned, I have to show that to the dogs and be like, hey, me too, buddy, but we can't right now. So we have to learn how to stare at the guy. We have to learn how to like, vent. I go to the gym every day and vent my emotions into bars and willing participants and like heavy bags. My dog goes to the gym every day and vents his into weight-pulse legs and treadmills and spring poles and tug toys and whatever, you know? And like, we both do the same management strategy. - Yes. - Like, yeah, it's like a, it's a weird thing what I was saying was that like, people will diagnose the dog that was appropriately, not appropriately, was in the touch phase of negotiating as Jeffrey Dahmer and tried to murder. And you're like, no, I didn't, those are two different things. But then other people, because they don't understand the difference, they'll take a dog that legit is Jeffrey Dahmer murder and go, I just nipping. And you're like, no, dude, because they're team. - Exactly. - You're moving from it. - Yeah. - They see other people describing bites as not real violence, but just a little something something. And they go, call mine too. And you're like, no, no, no, no, listen. People are so unfamiliar with that ladder that they haven't, they don't understand. They don't register pressure as the same thing as touching. To me, all the same shit, dude, stillness, eye contact, all that shit is the beginning of the fork in the road that goes down to the waterfall, actual fighting. So it's like any negotiating with threats of violence is like, okay, here it is. This is you've decided to use violence as a tactic in your negotiating. And if we think that's inappropriate, like if I want to stop a dog from negotiating in that style, I want to try to stop it as early as I can because I don't want them. It's harder to teach them, it's okay to use this strategy, but just, it's like it's okay to slap somebody, but not punch them in the stomach. That's hard to teach a 10 year old dude. You tell them hit them and they're like, boom, and you're like, not with your elbow, that's too much. Like what? How much I owe that? Why's most another fucking difference? That's like, I think it's difficult, but I think people are so removed that they see the lower level stuff as not violent at all and totally benign and see the mid range stuff as unacceptable, even though the step just before it was totally so that's the point. Now they see the mid range stuff as totally unacceptable. This half of the continuum is absolutely fine. This half of the game is evil and wrong and what's wrong with my dog. And then they can't tell the difference between a dog straight up actually murder fighting and still trying to negotiate with touch. - It's true. - And I guess, yeah, to understand that continuum causes so many fucking problems for dogs. And I think in so many other facets of life as well, I believe that, but I guess the rule, and I have to just say it again 'cause there could be listeners thinking, whoa, so we're saying fighting is good. I'm like, no, no, no. If you've understood the meaning of that way of expression and communication for yourself in real life, then you can understand like, you know, that what you learn on the streets is, and like that natural way of, I guess we'll call it expression, is what your dog is operating from. And if you know it and you're familiar with it, you can see it and you can communicate, where if you're removed from it, we're using words and I come on, please be nice. And I'll do that just with my body. And of course, I learn a lot of that before I did any like study and understanding anything about dog behavior and training. I worked at the local shelter and one of my main things that I think I learned the most from there was the dogs that were gonna either sit there for 18 months and finally eventually find the home at like the special farm or actually get put down 'cause you know, they were inappropriate and reactive. I would, 'cause I'm there every day, I was handling those dogs, we removed the catarie, we removed the summerals, we had a bigger area where we can socialize some of the dogs. And I think it's better when you know a little bit less and had less experience because you're a bit more confident. It's like, oh, I'm gonna put this dog in that dog. And you got a couple of dogs that are your regulars. So they're the ones that helped the others. Anyway, so there was this big area where I have like four or five of the dogs and this is where they learned, first of all, their enrichment was playing with each other. And the coolest thing was those six dogs were the ones that were on potential death row because of their behavior, because of how they acted around other dogs. And now they're the ones out of all the dogs that are here, I'll get to play with the other dogs. So it's really cool to see that. But also it wasn't such just a real quick story. I think I've spoken about on the podcast before, but we had a manager come in and I was like, oh, you know, these positive only people were trying to infiltrate the shelter and blah, blah. And she pretended for three months that she was on board with like what I was saying. And then I made a comment three months later and she's like, yeah, yeah, that's like, that's, like I'm one of them. And I'm like, oh, damn. So like you've been like watching me and doing my thing and not saying anything and that's very conniving. You should have been on us upfront so we can just like discuss our differences. Anyway, so now I'm like, oh, damn, she's like, we had like this, you know, political kind of tension. And a couple of weeks later, I was at the lunch, I was going to lunch and she said, oh, by the way, can you put the dogs that are playing in the pen? Can you put them like away? I'm like, oh, they've been fine. Like they're always there. They'll be fine. Like, yeah, they're only all right when you're here. I'm like, oh, is that right? I'm like, yeah, I'll put them up and she's like, oh, damn it. Just the way she said it, she realized because of the conversations we've been having is that, well, I choose to train like this and the handle the dogs like this. You choose to do it the way that I disagree. But the ones that the most misbehaved team that are behaving now, only behaving, you're here. And they're happy. It's not like they're suppressing in the corner going shit, not like that. They're happy dogs. And then she realized, dammit, it was almost like you just admitted that the way that I've been doing has been working. But that's cool. I put away. So the point there was that I wasn't doing it with technical training. I wasn't even, I wasn't using markers. I wasn't using food. I was using body language and disconnection. And there's a cool organic part of that that shows, and that's how I learned how dogs will interact and communicate. Maybe a little scruff here and there, okay, sorted out, blah, blah. It teaches in the impulse control on the fly rather than setting up the session for it. And I think that's how when you get a group of the boys together and we're at the party, it's like, "Dimi, hey, we're going this way. We're going now." Because I know what's happening. I can see what's happening. I don't know what you're liking this content. I can't get in and split fights as they start to happen. Yeah, of course, of course. And it's the same with the dogs. The thing is, there's. That is a real, interesting thing. And Chad MacKenn was an early influence on me for sure. A huge man's where figure. And watching him socialize dogs. Dogs can learn a tremendous amount from other dogs because their genetics are such that they want to try to get along and figure it out. And once they realize, "Oh, we can negotiate down here and avoid higher levels." They'll seek lower and lower levels to get the job done. Because they don't actually want to go to the end. We're just trying to get some shit taken care of. I don't know if anybody wants to actually fight. They just want to work some shit out. And so it's like the two guys at the bar that are chest bumping and talking shit. But if you locked them in a box and said, "One of you dies." They would cry. Like, they don't want to fight. But they want to have that moment. They want to walk it out or whatever. And so it's like most dogs are operating on that level. The problem is when you get those dogs that are either not. Like if they just genetically don't care about going to the end. Like they'll just fight. Like fighting to them is not an aversive. You know, for some dogs fighting, very few. But for some dogs, fighting is not an aversive. For a very, very rare dog, fighting is a fucking appetite of response. It's not just neutral. It's fucking awesome. It's the best thing in the world, dude. And that's really hard for people to understand. And I think that that gets real fucked up for people because most people, again, are so disconnected with violence that they do not. They can't fathom. They see the life of a professional fighter and go fuck that. No way. No way. You couldn't put a gun to my head and make me do it. I wouldn't do it. And it's like, I like. I signed up for that shit. Like it wasn't for money. I didn't give a fuck. I remember the first time I made any money fighting. And it was just like, wow. Like one of the first professional, like not. I mean, it was still illegal technically, but it was like they're selling tickets and stuff. They're starting to legitimize. I mean, I fought three times on the same night. It was an eight-man tournament. I fought three times on the same night. And the winner of the whole event got $500. I made $500 for three fights. Like no gloves, no gloves, no time limit, head butts, growing shots, everything is legal, like crazy. It's just like. I was willing to do that for nothing, for free. And it's like, there's dogs like that too. And there's some dogs that most dogs, 95% of the dogs in the world find the idea of actually getting to the end of that continuum unbelievably distasteful. They are super. They'll do everything they can to stay as far away from it as possible. Yeah. There are a fucking 4% of the dogs in the world that are like, I'm not averse to it. It's not my choice. I don't find it fun. They're like, they're willing. They're not gonna not go. But they don't choose it. They're not gonna pick it. But they'll fucking totally go. And then there's like that 1% dog that's like, fucking right. Like I said. I was born for this. They're like, dude, you just said the best thing in the world. You like, let's fucking do it. Do you think those percentages changes when we put them on leads and behind fences? Of the dogs that are find it enjoyable? No. They're not the ones that find it enjoyable. The ones that are willing and also the ones that weren't like that think I'm not even willing. But now I guess I have to. So what happens is if you look at kind of the emotional construct, once on a. If you imagine there's a good book that I just read that was called, like, How Emotions Are Made. And she talks about looking at emotions as a graph like an xy axis. So there's a razzle and valent valiance, right. Valence valence. I'm not sure if I'm saying it right. Essentially it means feels good feels bad. High or low. And it's like an xy axis, right. And if you think about it like on a color chart on the computer when you're trying to pick a color, it looks like a. This corner is blue and this corner is yellow and this corner is red and this corner is green. And like it's a. It's like a wash from red to blue. Yeah. But anywhere you put your cursor, the place you put your cursor is a very. You know, 75.6299 and that is a very particular color. It looks like just a mush of gradient from one color to the other. And like at this corner, you can see red and at this corner, you can see a yellow. But if you put your cursor right there, that is a indigo 17 or whatever. It's like it's a very particular color, right. She looks at emotions like that, right. So like there's all the way a razzle very high, very low. And then there's feels good feels bad. So like the difference between a haunted house where what feels like an x-murder might jump out. It's very high a razzle and it's very close. It's almost feels bad, but not quite. Like it hasn't quite crossed the line to actual feels bad. Some people that same experience for them, it's across the line of feels bad. They don't like haunted houses. For some people, it's not even scary at all. So for them, it's like low a razzle feels good. But they don't get in a dremel and dumb because it's not high razzle. So it's like on one corner, you could see like all out rage. And on the other corner, you could see like complete flat depression. Yeah. But it's an interesting way to look at it. It is. Because like relaxed is low a razzle, but feels good. Whereas depressed is low a razzle, but feels bad. Excited is high razzle feels good. But angry as high razzle feels bad, right. People say like you can't biologically tell the difference between you know, haunted house and actual murder like it's cortisol. It's adrenaline. It's that's activation. Your blood vessels dilate. Yeah. So what's the difference with biologically, there's not much of a difference. Well, you're talking about a razzle level biological, but not how it you experience. How do you feel? It feels bad. Well, like exonement and yes, exonement and anxiety. I've heard come from the same part of the brain and has the same physiological response to the body. But the valiance. Yeah. So valiance is a is a is a term. I can't remember if it's physics or engineering somebody finally explained it to me where it's like a it's a word about like magnets. Like is it aversive or appetitive? Are you attracted to it or repelled by it? So that's why it's a razzle and a valance. So like tonight you fight in the any octagon with no rules and no gloves. And Jay is feeling excited. Panel's is feeling anxious. Yes. So for me, because we both have high arousal, but more of me and I do get nervous and I do get scared. So it's not all the way good feeling. Totally. Yep. But it's just the mag on the scale of is it appetitive or aversive? Are you attracted? Yes. Okay. It's scary, but it's just tipped enough that I am attracted more than scared. Yes. All the way attracted there would be no bad feelings at all. Yeah, 100% attracted or if it's all bad feelings, 100% repelled, but it's basically a razzle and repulsion attraction. Like a razzle and like that. Yeah, it's not definitely great. It's great. Yeah. What's the problem? And so the reason I brought it up is because any emotion regardless of whether it feels good feels bad, whether we could put it on a very particular part and call that anxiety and put it to move it to another part and somebody else would call it, you know, frustration. Like you can put the exact cursor and it's a very different specific emotion, but it's like if you back up and look at it, it kind of gets blurred, right? And so we get into these arguments about that's not mauve that's indigo or whatever. And you're like, it's too cursor like clicks over, but that's not that's not off white. That's egg shell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, what it, but like that's what I'm saying is that we get into these arguments about these differences and emotion, but like understanding that graph is very helpful. And also further from that is not to be too sciency, have like the artistic craft to it. Like I like to do martial arts. I've been recently the last few years, you know, dabbling with jujitsu. I wish I could do more of it, just find time in life. Actually, my son and we just signed him up last week. He's officially in jujitsu. He goes today as well. So, and I want to talk a little bit about that, but for example, there's the, there's a feeling to it. Like I don't know the move. So I'm doing the role. And because the guy, because I've done martial arts before, but nothing, it wasn't jujitsu as a different Japanese art. So I've got the movement. I just don't have the finished techniques. So I'm like rambling around and the guys like, you know, get, get side guard. Side guard. And I'm like, is he even talking to me? What is a side guard? And I'm just like, I'm just doing whatever without trying to hit this guy. And, and at the end, I went up to him like, oh, he's side guard like me on the side of grabbing my legs around one foot. And he's like, I guess that's where he's like, oh, you didn't know that. it looked like I did because I had movement, but I did it in the terms. I think in dog training people know the terms better, that I know the feeling. Like there's a feeling and you need to go with that as well as like knowing where are we on a graph. And then other people have just feeling but then they have no idea of a graph and how to replicate it. It's just like I just did that thing. I don't know what I did. There's so much interest here. Some of you'll go, how'd you do that sweep? They'll be like, I don't know. And you're like, fuck it. I've seen you do three people exactly the same. How do you not know? They're like, I don't know. But that thing I was saying about the arousal is any emotion that gets to a certain level of arousal, a certain level of sympathetic nervous system activation, any emotion that gets to a high enough RPM will demand action. So I can be scared. But if my arousal level is not high, I can experience fear but not activate my SNS. I can be angry and I can do deep breathing and I can control my arousal level and I can be angry, but it won't demand action at a certain level of activation of arousal. Any emotion regardless of flavor, any I can be so depressed or not I can be so like sad that at a certain point, I'm going to start pulling out my hair and rocking. It's going to demand some sort of action. Yes. Because the SNS is designed to create action to alleviate bad feeling. When the balance gets too high, when the fact it feels bad and the arousal is too high, even if it feels good and the arousal is too high, like do you know what I mean? Like you'll run in a circle and do a cartwheel because you want to fucking lottery. That feels good. But your SNS not so aroused that it demanded some sort of lap your hands, you'll fucking hoot and hoot and holler. It's like at a certain level of arousal, it demands action of it. Right? And so like the dogs, the fences, the leashes, the frustration, that doesn't change the balance. It doesn't make dogs more attracted to the idea of a fight. But it causes more irritation and that irritation compounds and then their SNS gets activated and at a certain level, it will demand action. So I can make somebody angry enough that even though they're petrified to fight me, they will punch me in the face. Yeah. Yeah. If I can fucking poke them and prod them and irritate them enough, and they have, they were in no way more attracted to the idea. But it demanded action of them because the arousal level got so high that their body was like, we got to do something and it's like vomit. You're like, I don't even want to do this. It's coming out. And so like that's an interesting thing because people don't look at it that way. So they're like, you know what I mean? My dog wants to fight more when he's on a leash and it's like, no, dude, he doesn't want to fight, but he doesn't want to fight at all. Yeah. He has limited options and he's now over. Yes. And he's like, it's coming out, which is why sometimes they'll redirect on to one another. You'll see two dogs that are family mates. Love one another. Never fight. But they'll get so jacked up out of target. They'll start fighting one another. Everybody's like, I don't understand. Yeah. Because they're thinking about it like they're calculating like they're like, I'm so angry at that dog. I'm going to attack you. That's weird. Like, why would I block my house mate? And you're like, dude, they're not thinking at a certain level of arousal, emotion supersedes thought and demands action of you. Definitely. I love that. I guess that would be a great time to talk about the Lage Stress Model. I do. And I know that could be like another seven hours of talking. But it'd be nice to kind of just express in a general way to the listeners, what is the Lage Stress Model? We've discussed it before. I know that you are the person to talk about it the best. And it's really important because we just see behaviors, behavior, not understanding wise. We've talked a little bit about the arousal and how you feel. What is the Lage Stress Model and how does that play into it? So the idea is that every being has a certain threshold for stress. Like if we're using the terms we were just using, every person has a part on that graph like on the speedometer over arousal. Everybody's got a certain line that once they hit that line, it's coming out like and it's not going to be a conscious thought. It's not going to be a decision you've made. It's not based on reinforcement and punishment. It's just it's coming out. It's like once they hit their level, their threshold for whatever their level of stress tolerance is, they're going to have their episode, whatever that looks like. And it's just this, again, it's like how I said, we treat in some ways, we treat dogs as if they should be super cognitive. Like they should not only have human like thoughts, but they should be at a competent 15 year old kid level, not even like a three year old. Like in a well formed intellectual, you know, smart, cool, you know, as we call it, as we call it, exactly. Yes. It's crazy, you know. But like in other aspects, we don't do it at all. Like with people, we have an innate understanding of the layered stress model, but with dogs, we never do. So like with people, if you came home and you had slightly undercooked the meatloaf and your partner cut into it, saw the pink and started like hyperventilating and they flipped over their table and they punched a wall and they just like bashed the table and then cried in a corner. No one would go, man, my partner has a really severe undercooked meatloaf trigger. Like my partner has undercooked meatloaf reactivity issues. And then what training protocol like we need to desensitize and counter condition, I'm going to give you undercooked meatloaf and give you skittles or I'm going to like slowly undercooked the meatloaf until you acclimate. I'm going to flood you. I'm just going to cram in your mouth until you accept it. You know, punish you for doing it. Differentially reinforce you for not. Like nobody would address the meatloaf. Everybody would go immediately like, dude, what the fuck is going on? Yeah. Like what's happening? Yes. I mean, like what's going on? Because it's not the fuck of the like, there's obviously clearly not fuck me with what's going on. And then we would anticipate them telling us about this crazy shit in their life and all the bad things that have happened and stacked up, you know, the layers of stress. So the problem is dogs can't talk. And if we don't make that assumption for them that there is a such thing as a layers of stress and that that layer of stress can cause you to have what looks like a trigger reaction, but is truthfully just a stacking of stress that goes past your ability to deal, right? So we can't have them tell us about their terrible bad day. So we have to like do forensic fucking evidence like we're trying to put together a crime scene. We got to figure out based on the footprints. What's going on? You know, and so the idea is I tried to make a basic. This is not exhaustive. Of course, this is like simplified for Joe Blowneer, but just a real basic. Here's the basic layers of stress to look out for, right? So the first layer of stress is health. If your dog is being violent because it's a leg is broken. There's no amount of problem collars or cookies that are going to fucking help you. And everybody kind of forgives acute conditions like if my dog bit me and he's never bitten me before and I found out his leg was broken, we would immediately go, oh, it's like broken. Like that explains it. Because immediately we understand the layers of stress are too hot. But nobody thinks like, man, have you ever considered your dog having a headache? Like they have vessels literally like yeah. Headaches are caused by vasoconstriction like they got blood vessels in their head, standsteries and they must have headaches. Now I'm not suggesting that you use the layered stress model as an explanation or an excuse. The best use of layered stress model is in diagnostic or in anticipation. Like I expect a change in criteria or a change in behavior based on health issues I'm aware of. And that changes my plan and my understanding of what I'm asking for. And so the idea is like when you're diagnosing what you're doing with a dog, I had a good example the first time this really hit me was I had a dog that we were working and we were working on his aggression stuff and we were talking about incompatible behaviors. We're putting on a place board so when a dog goes past he's got a job to do and rewarding him with a tug toy like you know we were toggling between incompatible and alternative behaviors and that's a great plan. You know, I mean, and of course we're going to use a little negative reinforcement because this is serious business. He's killing dogs. So like we're going to have to say, hey man, I'm going to pay you and I'm going to make it worth your while and I'm going to make it accomplishable. There will be like you got to get back on the bed if you step off the bed. You're supposed to get back on the bed. There's no bullshit, right? And we were expecting based on past performance a certain criteria like we're expecting him to do about this good today. And we bring out the trigger dog, bring out the decoy dog and we got a performance that was not at all when I anticipated. And of course, if there's a regression and we're willing to use negative reinforcement, that regression would suggest everybody in the world goes, turn it up, man, put it on it. Like he's not taking it seriously. Today he's decided, fuck the bullshit. It's competing motivator. He's making a decision. He's blowing off his criteria. And so just like everybody else in the world that is willing to use negative reinforcement, my brain goes, hey man, give him a reason. And because Chad Mackin, like a little angel since my shoulder, I hear like, what about the layered stress model, Jay? You may have a headache, bruh. I'm like real quick, I just real quick. Hey, before I before I make the decision about how we're going to deal with this criteria break, before I make the decision, real quick, man, just real quick, run me through like, IT just called and they say as it plugged in as it turned on. Hey, right quick, man, is everything similar with your dog's health? You had any health issues with your dog in the last couple days? Oh, he was shitting blood this morning before we came to train. And you're like, okay, not that I'm saying that's why you now you have no criteria for place. I'm not a fucking hippie. I'm not an idiot. But I also am like, man, that would have been beneficial to know. Yeah, because I might have reduced criteria anticipating a lower level of stress tolerance based on an elevated level of stress in another layer. Perfect. And because I had that understanding, I didn't pressure the dog. I didn't, him, him, I didn't go, hey, motherfucker, stop screwing around because it wasn't a sudden lack of motivation. It was a sudden increase of pressure. Yeah. They mean. And so it's like, okay, that changed the way I handled that dog today. And that's awesome, right? So like the layers, understanding layers of stress. So the first layer of stress is health, right? The next layer of stress up is lifestyle. And we're not going to go crazy deep because I could do a whole fucking seminar on a lifestyle. But it's like literally lifestyle says that the further they get away from their life that they were designed to live, the functions and the expressions they were designed to have, the more stress there is. And people are like this too. We weren't designed for nine to five jobs under fluorescent light bulbs. Like we were designed to move our bodies and being nature and like the further we get away from that, the more unhappy we get also, you know? And so the first goal for me is give them exactly what they were meant for literally exactly what they were meant for. Give you a double. You're not even a job. But like, and so that's an interesting thing. If you do a give them a job, sometimes they imply like any job, just a job, just a job. Yes. Your teenage kid, get a fucking job. You don't care. You don't care if he's flipping burgers. Flip it burgers doesn't fulfill that fucking kid. Get a fucking job. Dude, get a job. Yeah. You know, because there's a amount of like you got to learn to eat the shit sandwich. Has no else. You got to deal with it. Like so to get a job. Yeah. What I mean is find your fulfillment. That's right. Because we tell kids get a job after we tell them find the musical instrument. Find the sport. Find the scholastic subject that makes your heart sing and pursue the fuck out of that. Pursue it. Like it's your whole fucking life. And also in the meantime, get a fucking job. And like, I tell you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you. And a bill, get a fucking job. Yeah. So yes, my dog's going to do random arbitrary bullshit because not not because I believe they need it. If I lived on a deserted island with my dog, I would do zero zero obedience. There would be absolutely zero obedience. The only fucking reason I do any obedience with my dog at all is because we live in a world that will kill it if it fucks things up. So I've got to teach him to walk on a fucking arbitrarily short fucking leather line because the loss as I have to. And if the losses I have to, or they're going to kill it, then I got to teach him how to do it without fucking hating his life. So I got to get a job. Like he's got to work. But most people say, give your dog a job as in as if that were fulfillment. He just like a kid get a fucking job. Flippin burgers cut in the lawn. Yeah. That's not what fulfills you. That's what you do because you must because the world lives a certain way. And you got to learn to get along in it. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I tell you, but I split burgers and cut in the lawns all day every day and had no passion. That sucks. Yeah. I think people overdo obedience in the assumption it's fulfillment because people have said, give them a job, not give them the job nature gave them. Yeah. The job nature gave them. Very different than the job somebody's gonna sit down, stay and see how they do it. Like that's very different. So it's like, you have a hurting dog take them actually hurting. You can't take them actually hurting find the closest possible serigate you can like fucking tray ball or something. And if you can't give them a really close serigate, give them something that on the surface doesn't look like it at all, but internally spins the same dials like border collies that do obedience. No, obedience doesn't look at all like hurting. No. As far as like the activity itself from a meta but in the dog is trying to be precise listing their own or making moves and stopping and keeping their eyes and reading the signals and doing it exactly just so. You don't be very careful. Like quick and stop and freeze and stare and do it right and pay attention to them. Like it's not on the surface. It's like, oh, that's very different from hurting, but internally it can spend a lot of the same dials that hurting them. So if that dog is fulfilled by obedience, that's awesome, but it's only fulfilled by obedience because it happens to be spending the dials that they wanted to be spun by hurting. So if you take another dog that's eaten to other shit and try to fulfill them by doing that obedience, they're not fulfilled. Because for them, it's not spending the dials they want. So for me, I like fucking bulldogs, but it's like, I can't give them a serigate. I'm sorry, I can't give them the act. I can't put them in a pit. I'm not pit. So if I'm not going to bait them against other animals, like I am stuck only with serigate, I cannot. Most people with their preferred breed can actually give them. Join the fucking PSA club, dude. Like go to the fucking duck hurting guy. Like take them pig hunting. You know, to do the real thing. The real things, yeah. And as real as you can. If you can't do the actual thing, do it as close as you can, right? But like for me, with my dogs, I can't. Like I can't, cannot do what they were bred to do. So I'm stuck only with serigate activities. And so I got to try to give them the closest serigate activity. I can't. People look at a spring pole and see that. People look at me playing tug and like smash them with an empty water bottle while we're playing tug. And they're like, Oh, I see. I see the natural obvious serigate to fighting. I see what you're right? Yeah. Well, they don't see things like wait pull. Wait pull doesn't look at all on the surface. It's not the same energy. It's not the same. There's not a lot of movement. There's no biting at all. Like it's not in on the surface. It looks very, very different. But inside, like you will not stop me. Dad's gone, come on, buddy. You can do it. The dog has a little bit of doubt, but listens to dad and leans into it doesn't let it fucking break him. Like that's very similar internally. So even externally, it doesn't look the same internally. It is. Like lifestyle says, give them the life that they were meant for if there's any safe possible plausible way, give them the actual thing. If you can't give them the closest possible serigate, you can't. If you can't find a close serigate, give them something that might on the surface be totally different, but inside is reaching as close to those dials as you can reach, because without doing it, you're fighting uphill against this fucking layer of stress. And all their behaviors are going to be significantly impacted because their layers of stress are high because their lifestyle sucks. Next layer of stress up is the leash. I'm sorry, clarity. Clarity is next layer. Clarity just says that, like, man, you need to understand how to navigate your world to be reduced in stress. And the problem is in dog training, everybody goes to structure. Just like lifestyle, people say, give them a job. And I know what people mean and well-meaning people mean what I said about fulfill their lifestyle. But it comes across as give them a fucking job, which turns into go cut the lawn. Would you say that? We say that because we're so used to seeing the everyday person that walks a dog on Sundays only and I'm like, dude, you need to give you dog a job. A baby is training and lucid walking is the entry point. Yes. Because they're not going to JRC tomorrow because like far out there don't walk the dog every day. Symantics are important. And this is the thing where I think we fuck around in dog training. Like words matter. If we're going to use a matter, right? So like when you tell an owner, it's not that different. It doesn't take much more time or much more explanation to say, give them a purpose. Give them a job. Give them a purpose. Don't take that. But like, I can tell like a, hey man, your dog needs a purpose and somebody's not like, what does that mean? They're like, I get it. I understand. Okay. It's going to be hard for them to fuck that up. There's nobody thinks my dog's purpose is going for a walk. My dog's purpose is, I guess the purpose is like the adjective and the job is the verb. It's like, like, give them purpose. What were the purpose? I love them and they're like, we don't know, like, you got to make them do stuff. And that's where the job element comes to it. But have a job with purpose. Then that sounds like well, now you're getting into the depths of it. We want to have the one line is, but all of this isn't one liner. It's, it's, it's like, right? We're going to have a one liner, right? And all one liners are going to be short. All one liners, like any elevator pitch is incomplete. So what you got to do is decide. It's like successive approximation. The skill you teach the dog right now is not the skill that you want. But it's as close as you're going to get without going the wrong way. So like your words on a fucking elevator pitch, a one liner meant to inspire a person and inform a person. It's going to be wrong. It can't be right because it takes me to book for it. Yeah. It takes months of practice and thinking and nuance to understand the depth of what we're talking about. So like, I'm going to successfully approximate you. Yeah. So I got to choose words that make you miss. closer to the target and not accept the fact that I'm making you miss the target by far there because we're going to miss the target. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like even dog of purpose and like that's a throwaway line. Yeah. But it will get you it will get more people closer to what I mean to give them a job because they'll go oh cool got it. Give them a job. I like I give my kid a job. I make my kid do chores and cut the fucking lawn. And he's a little human because of it. Yeah. You're like yeah you do but before you made him cut the lawn you labored over which fucking sporty was going to play. You know what I mean like you like to give him a job yet to have purpose otherwise the kid doesn't come in the lawn anyway. Yeah of course. Yeah. Yeah. Do like he's cut the lawn to get the bike because the bike is his purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cut the lawn so he can have permission to go play soccer with his friends because soccer with his friends is his purpose. True. Do you want me like yeah. But yeah like when I went to tranks I got a coolie so you know the the hurting dog is the appropriate thing. And for me to I mean the mill for Sydney like for me to go find sheep is ridiculous. So yeah we play tug and and and the ball is like a ritual that we do seven times a day. And yes I'm teaching him new commands because I'm getting bored telling him to do the same shit over and over again but I need to challenge him. And and the purpose of it is the fulfillment of fulfill that prize drive and the connection between me and him and then because of that when he sells all the other thing that would not ordinarily trigger him he's like no no like of course. Yeah whatever good man like it without it he's like I'm chasing that thing because I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm a such a worse person out of the gym. Yes. I lift really stupid heavy and I fight every day I fucking choke the shit out of people every day and I'm the most mellow polite. I hold the doors for people I say please thank you like you can't get me upset. You know what I mean like nobody makes me out I never I've never raised my voice I never yell at anybody I've never said any mean thing to my spouse like I just you can't you I'm unflapable you can't make me you know what I mean but it's like what it's because I have effective places to put all my urges stuff you know and because in the live stress your health is good like undercheck the lifestyle is not and then the clarity is able to be even addressed you can't do it without the two fundamental foundations of the time. Well people so the idea is that when I tell people clarity everybody goes structure but structure is the antithesis of lifestyle. So like you got to talk about spinning plates. I have structure my dogs in a box comes out of the box goes on a place board does not go through the door before me every bit of affection gets a fucking obedience behavior before it can't get on the furniture like fucking structure like dog structure right. You can fucking achieve massive amounts of clarity but like at the cost of lifestyle. Yeah so people have to think about the spinning plates how do I increase my clarity without decreasing my lifestyle. So structure is a way to give clarity but it's a high cost way to give clarity and people don't think about it like that you know. So I think especially people that think give them a job is fulfilling their purpose now the more structure I use means they're on the job board which means they're more fulfilled. You listen to what I say because I say give a dog a job and structure everything and these are general words we use but I know what you're saying. Me too. Yes that's true. If you saw somebody a year later with a dog on fucking constant lockdown going look how fulfilled he is with all the structure you'd be like oh my god what if I don't know that's not what I meant you're like yeah you said structured fulfillment I'm like fuck man that's not what I mean. Yeah yeah. That's like gotta be careful but it's like that idea of clarity so I think consistency in your expectations and consistency in your language those are the two big money items that don't affect so I if I'm very clear my dog can always jump on the counter or my dog never jumps on the counter and that's clear and they know it. In consistency is when sometimes I don't care sometimes I do sometimes I give very mad sometimes I think it's hilarious and then the dog doesn't know what to do so he pisses me off and so I'm like you know what place yeah and I'm gonna place them because he needs structure because he's fucking this shit up. No then you're clarity in what you expect of the dog is bad. Yeah I like that. So clarity in your language and clarity in your expectations are big money ways to increase the dogs overall clarity reducing stress but not having to dip too heavy into structure thereby affecting lifestyle does that make sense? 100% I love that. When we have the leash man the leash is the leash is a weird thing because is that the tool? Is the leash a tip of the pyramid? No the leash is the next one under triggers. Okay yeah. This is the next one upright. The leash is the last layer of stress outside of actual triggers right but the leash is like it's the only place we disagree with dogs on right like so for tens of thousands of years we co-evolved together we think of eye contact the same body pressure the same we negotiate the same way the force continuing that we use is identical like we feel the same way about possessions and spate like we're so fucking in tune it's beyond any two other you know species that have co-evolved together it's crazy like chimpanzees. Look at your finger they won't look at what you're pointing at dogs look what you're pointing. That's crazy. No so it's like it's a we've evolved together in a way that is very cool right which is awesome and for tens of thousands of years it's worked except this one subject travel speed and proximity we differ in travel speed and proximity that is the only place that is for naturally right so we travel about two miles an hour they travel about four. For us our social connection is about six feet it's why covid was I want to feel disconnected so I need you to stay outside six feet they didn't do fucking sneeze tests. Why do you think that centuries or decades apart right decades apart covid was a six foot distance to maintain social distance was six feet outside six feet safe. Leashes decades ago how long are leashes six foot long why are leashes six feet long why aren't they four feet why aren't they seven feet six foot is about where we start to feel connections when we want to be connected we want inside six feet when we want disconnection we want outside six feet so our genetic predisposition for social connection is six feet does that make sense yes yes dogs it's like 50 yards they go way the fuck off look over your shoulder yeah you're still there and then they go way off now with leashes in the woods we are different but we forgive our differences because I get to go my perfect speed and they get to go their perfect speed we're not inhibited by the others decision or preference we're like we're not the same but don't matter it's all good no problem they get to go out enough that they don't feel inhibited but they tend to come close enough that we don't feel disconnected and we forget our differences and so throughout history for tens of thousands of years we've been in perfect harmony with this one thing that we're different about but it doesn't matter because we never had to address it's no big deal yeah until 30 40 50 years ago and it's like we put that dog on leash put that dog on leash the most unnatural thing I always said the least of the most unnatural thing we do the dogs the way you just explained it encompass and explained everything without me knowing those facts and that's really really cool that's like I didn't it's like I haven't made it up I just acknowledged it yeah like hey I didn't I don't I didn't make up gravity I'm just like the apple hit me in the head yeah yeah that hits you if you stand under it bro you don't mean like it's not some genius thing it's just like noticing the thing yes it's right right our perspective and our lack of empathy because empathy is the ability to see from another's perspective right and so what happens is when we view what we're asking the dog to endure as unnatural and arbitrary and we know we can't explain it to them and it's going to suck from their perspective we help them and when we don't have the ability to help them we forgive them so if we're going to put the dog in a crate we go man getting locked in a little box would suck so I'm gonna I assume you are gonna think this sucks so let me help you and we put food in the thing in little crate games and going in and going out and click when you sniff it and a big crate and then smaller and smaller crates and the puzzle games and all this shit and we try to help them accept this totally unnatural arbitrary thing that they can't possibly understand while we're doing it yeah and we help them and if we do not have the ability to help because we don't have time and it's an emergency we we cram them in the box because we have to but we forgive them nobody goes why don't you want to get in a tiny little box with a locked door we go yeah that's fucking terrible this sucks sorry I am sorry I have to nail trends mausles crates veterinary care we help them and in a moment where we are unable to help them we forgive their dissent and now the leash complete all the set everything everything Absolutely unnatural. an arbitrary, but we know when it's on natural and arbitrary because for us, it's the same. We see boxes would suck. Things stuck to my face would suck an unexplainable painful thing you're doing to my finger would suck. And I think it would suck if you did it to me with no explanation. So let me help you and let me forgive you. But when we put them on leashes, we're going the perfect speed at the perfect proximity. So what the fuck is your problem? You not help them. And we get angry at them. We think they're being shitty and rude and mean and intolerant and just bad. And it's not nobody would have done that if they put a muzzle on a dog in the muzzle spent the entire time fighting it. You're just like, get sucked, dude. Now I expect you to get used to it. And I'm going to try to help you. And if I can't help you, I'm going to forgive you. And if it eventually just fucking me, we never go, what the fuck, man? Why are you trying to get that muzzle off? Why do you not want to get that crate? Why won't you let me dremel your toenail? We don't get mad. We're like, yeah, I get it. This is arbitrary and stupid. And you can't possibly understand why I'm asking you to do it. So let me help you. Don't let me forgive you. But we don't do that with leashes because we lack the empathy to see from their perspective. Because we don't understand we differ on travel speed and proximity. Very interesting. Even if you don't change your training, how you do leashes, if you use the same tools and the same concepts, just changing your perspective will make you less mad at them, which makes them less pissed about what you are doing to them. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you cram a dog into a crate and you're like, I'm sorry, and you do it in a kind and gentle, unfortunate way, they're less mad than if you really get the fucking boxed piece of shit. So just changing your perspective on their view of the leash changes everything about your relationship with them about the leash and their relationship with you about the leash. I love that. And then of course you can change it. You could, you know, a little leash pressure food, a little leash pressure mark, a little, you know what I mean? Like you can actually change it. Yeah. Street it like any other arbitrary thing that you do, you know? So anyway, but that's like the leash. And then the last thing is triggers. And the truth is if you crush the layered stress model, most dogs don't actually have if I take a dog that is formerly dog reactive, crazy dog reactive, trigger of dogs. And I get them healthy and I give them a fucking amazingly filling lifestyle. And I clarity of expectations, we have language in the bank where they know what I'm saying and they know what to do and they know how to respond. And it's all good. And I've acclimated them to where they're at least neutral, if not appetitive about their leash pressure. And we take that dog and wants some walking past the dog. There's 99.5% of the time there's no fucking issue. They're not reactive. It had this session. We made up at the park because you lived too far away from me. So two hour session and hour and a half inches like panels. My dogs are reactive to dogs. And like we haven't seen a dog yet. And I'm like, listen, you got like no control, no connection, or nothing without a dog. Like let's like, so let's get what you want here before I pull my dog out of the car because the last half an hour of my dog being around, that is like that that's not even as important as everything that's happening prior to it. And I put clients on that model of like we need to square the layered stress model way before we get to triggers. Yeah. You're not clear and consistent in your language and communication. We don't even need a course, we're going to have a problem with triggers. Of course. That's what we are. And that's why then when the dog meets you first off the bat, you start doing this, you know, like showing them what leash pressure is and working on like you're not going to change a whole lifestyle in the hour you met them, but you've been clear and you are helping them. And then oh, there's a dog over there. Hey, like and we do a thing, kind of conditioning, making space using, but like whatever it is, the dog's like, yeah, what's up? Like what are we doing? This makes sense. And that's why they're like, I'm a god, you do magic. And this is like, wow, not really at all. I'm just literally it's just layered stress model. Like it's true. There's the dog rocks up. I can immediately start behaving in ways that make sense to the dog because I'm clear. Yeah. Clear my communication. I'm clear in my expectations. I'm forgiving and tolerant with the leash. I try to show them what it means, but I also don't have a bad attitude about it. And I'm like, I'm helping them understand this shitty thing that I'm asking them to do. And I go, I know, buddy, I'm no, it sucks. I'm sorry. I wish I could help you. Hey, let me show you. Will you press your clip? Like show you. We help you. Yeah. I love that. We're going like, we could talk for like hours and hours and hours. I want to ask one more question. Before we wrap it up and look, and this is like another like me, me, me, look, you love your analogies. I love my analogies. And the way that we describe, I think we, we teach very similar. And so I would just we're just we're we're we're dealing here. But um, but the GRC now look at the reason why I kind of had the the way I asked the questions, maybe I'm getting better at interviewing people is that what we've talked about all the things, the problems are say. So I want you to just maybe as brief as you can, what is GRC and what its main focus and now just hearing that and knowing what GRC is myself is that, but it's a way to fulfill the layage threshold, especially for the dogs that you're most passionate about because it may not be favorite dog, but give us a little bit of a rundown. So GRC dog sports is a dog sport that I helped found years ago now, Jesus Christ, it was almost 10 years ago, holy shit. That's just blew my mind. Yeah. I think I wow. I think I started the Facebook group. And for a long time, it was private. There was only like four or five people on it. We were just like, it was my idea. And I was just back and forth. What do you guys think? And we didn't know what it was called or anything, you know? But I think I started that group in 2014. Yeah, I think 2013, 2014 was when me and Chad first started talking about it. And I was saying how I wanted to do it on the podcast. But basically the idea is that there's these pit bull sports that I grew up around doing like a weight pole, walk line, treadmill, spring pole. But all of those sports that were cool pit bull sports were just expressive. So most sports are either expressive or control oriented, right? They're either drive expression or drive control. And so like AKC obedience is all control. There's no expression. Doc diving is all expression, no control. And so like most sports are very heavy on expression or very heavy on control without expression. And most of the sports that are really, really dialed in on both fronts, also tend to involve biting people shaped targets, right? Like IPO, PSA, you know, I mean French ring, Mondia, all these things like they're very, the dogs get to express themselves to the fullest. And they also have really good control. But the potential problem for me is that they're biting human shaped targets, which I don't have a problem. I have a bunch of love of this sports. I watch them, I train with people that do them. I'll get in the suit. I'll help people work. It's no problem. But a lot of the dogs that I am hired to help are from organizations or with people who are 100% not going to do that. They're just not going to do it. And if you suggested they're going to run, they're going to run away, right? Or they're dogs that grew up in the games that I'm talking about there, like well bred pit bulls and like dudes that already do waypull already do walk on already do that shit. And I'm trying to convince them, Hey, there's another element. If we could put some control, if we could put some obedience, put some clarity into these dogs, you could get a lot of mileage. And they're like, Okay, that sounds interesting. What should I do? Quit all your sports and go do this new sport. Yeah. Oh, well, what about waypull? Yeah, fuck waypull. Go do PSA. You know, I mean, so what I really wanted when I started training with all these sport people trying to understand the idea of drive expression and control not being contradictory to one another. Obviously, I started training with sport people because they're the ones that have that idea. And everybody's like, you got to do the sports. You got to do the games that we play. And I'm like, man, I don't want to give up on my games. I just wish there was a version that had control also. So I could do this, these sports, but like what you're doing with the other stuff. And it's like that. Be the change you got to see in the world. You know, like I it didn't exist. So I was like, let's just make it nice and just for people, you know, and the basic beginning of it was this realization that negative reinforcement is a wonderful way to get reliability. Obviously, that's why we use it. But it's not a very good way to get like enthusiasm in overachieving. It's a great way to get like, hey man, seriously, you got to do it. And you'll get to the standard. You'll get to the minimum. Whatever you're demanding, you'll get to. But you won't get more. They won't be like, can I do more? Can I do extra? It's like they're going to do whatever removes the pressure. And so when I was in the pet dog world, what I saw was everybody did the minimum. You hear this all the time? People complain, my clients do just enough to get out a little bit. The first time they get a little bit of control, then they quit training and they're backsliding and then. And then when I started training with sport people, I would watch this like, dude, if I was in a pet dog seminar and somebody drove two, three hours, it was like, oh, cool. If somebody flew there from another state, you're like, wow, you're dedicated. That's a big fuck. Dude, I went to Ivan's place. First time I went to like a real sport dog seminar. I was at Ivan's place. And there was a dude. What's in Florida? There was a dude that drove from Alaska. Oh wow. Oh my gosh. And I was like, and nobody was even impressed. Like nobody was like people like where you from? He's like, drove down from Alaska and they're like this. Yeah, that's what you do when you want to win world championships. You know, yes, exactly. Nobody was even like, holy shit dude, everybody went, yep, yep. Sure, that's what you do. That's, that's expected. Yeah. The level of motivation was like, holy fuck, this is different. But instead of just being like, oh, pet people suck and sport people are rad, I started thinking like, what's the difference? Mm hmm. In the pet world, we motivate our clients with almost exclusively negative reinforcement. That's true. Don't do this. Your dog's gonna bite. If you don't do this, your dog's gonna keep being a problem. They're gonna keep jumping on the neighbor. They're gonna keep barking and pissing you off. Get out of pressure. Train makes the pressure go away. In the moment they relieve even enough pressure that they're experiencing it, but it's just at the basic level of tolerable. They quit because they did enough to make it tolerable. And if the only reason they're doing it is to remove pressure, then they're satisfied. And I realize that sport people aren't doing negative reinforcement. They're doing positive reinforcement. They want the metal. They want the change. They want the better school. And they're chasing a fucking accomplishment. And because of that, there's more enthusiasm for achieving more, extra more. And so I realized the model that I'm using with the dogs, I'm not using with the people. With dogs, I don't just pressure a dog onto place and go do place or else you're fucked. I go dude, place is how you get tug toys. And now they're like, dude, can I do place again? And I'm like, I don't know, can you do it? Good enough. And it's like, I got a dog that wants to get it. Because I took something arbitrary into them meaningless. And instead of going do the thing to get out of the problem, I went do the thing to get the achievement. And now I get a ton of buy-in from dogs on something they thought was uninteresting in the beginning. So why am I applying a totally different model to humans? And so I was like, OK, so with my clients, I'm like, it wasn't even a sport yet. I was just like, guys, here's the deal. Listen up. This is what we're going to do. All the dogs that I have work spring pulls because they're all those dogs, and they all need this aggregate activity, right? And I teach all the dogs to out and blah, blah, blah, because I'm training control and drive. Because that's the way I train. And so I'm like, here's the deal. We're all going to get together. We're going to have a little spring pull competition. You're going to have five minutes. And then I'm going to ask you to out at least three times or whatever. The early parameters of this sport were-- and they were like, oh, that sounds awesome. And then I'm like, but in order to do it, you got to loose leash, walk your dog up to a stranger, say hello, do a couple little figure aids, do a middle, do a down, and then you can qualify, and then we can compete. And I had people immediately. This wasn't even for a real sport yet. This was just something on a Saturday we were going to do. They went from training once or twice a week if I'm lucky to training like they would send me videos of them training before work in the morning. And how can I get this-- he still breaks his down when we pop a balloon or something. And you're like, god damn. Like the level of push they put in, immediately drastically changed. Yes. I was like, holy shit. And it hit me. It's the negative reinforcement model, or the positive reinforcement model. And I was talking about it on the podcast. And I was doing it for my clients and me. And then on the podcast, I was telling Chad, man, this idea of the model switch in motivating clients, and somebody would write me and go, hey man, that sounds awesome. How did you-- how many minutes and how long do they have to hold the down for? And can you-- you know, do you have any rules written down? I'm like, no, I just made it all up. So then it turned into, well, let me write it down so I can share it with you. And then that turned into, well, how do you keep track of-- do you get a title? Do you get points? What is it? And it just organically developed and turned into this thing. How it's an easy form of sport. And it's like out growing me. It's like turning into its own little grown up entity. And like, it'll-- in a year or two, it'll run without my presence. Like, it's going to be its own actual legitimate real sport. That's pretty-- that's pretty cool. But the idea is that it was initially trying to change the motivation for people to work with their dog in this way. So if they're going to do the games, which brings fulfillment, they want to do the games because they want to get filmed. They want to get a medal, but their dog wants to enjoy the film and everything, right? But in order to qualify for the games, they got to be able to do this basic work with their dog, which means they got to work on their clarity, their leash tolerance, their layered stress model. You don't even need to get a work on it. And so it's just a way to try to get people to be motivated to learn to live with their dogs better. And making it-- making purpose work a job, whatever you want to call it, making it part of a normal-- like for me, me work-- like, I've got three dogs. One of them's 12. He's older, body, shepherd, mix. He's retired now. He's doing this thing. He's living old age. I've got a little multi-spomoranian. So she is as cool as she could be. She has high ball drives. So I still train her daily, just on our walks and stuff. But the two-year-old, coolie that I have, he needs real purpose and work. Otherwise, he's mental and he's not easy to live with. But I use him like he was out with me all day every day for work. But he'll be like, oh, he's so chilled out. I'm like, well, he's not inherently a chilled out dog. He's named Chile. So I guess he has to be chill. But I guess-- but he's only like that because he knows he has-- everything that you've explained we do all of that in-- and actually, it's actually specifically because of all of that. It's just that you've made it in a way that it's accessible to the everyday person. And maybe there is a specific type of dog that would be gel to GRC. It's not like it's for every single type of dog. Some dogs, some dogs. I mean, in theory, there should theoretically be a sport for any dog in theory. Because if a dog likes to trot, they can get on a meal. True. But it's like if your dog can walk, they can fucking participate, right? But again, the goal is it's going to sound weird. The goal isn't to get as many people into GRC as possible. The goal is to have an avenue by which as many dogs as possible can be filled. Exactly. So for some dogs, that's PSA. And for some dogs, fucking agility. It's like saying everyone should do jiu jitsu. It's like, but what if I want to do football? It's like, what do football? That's a little bit different because-- I tell you. Everyone should be able to use their body in that way, right? Every human being should be comfortable and have a history, at least in their youth, of play fighting. True. Play fighting is a natural mammalian thing. Play fighting is a natural activity, human movement pattern. It's as natural as any-- like, play fighting, mating, like moving your body through some-- Fundamental. Fundamental. It's really part of the reason that society has become as sick as it has become is honestly because we have stopped play fighting. Yeah. We no longer encourage people to play fight, pass like such a young and stupid age. And we don't even encourage them to do it well. We're just like, yeah, tolerated in little boys until they're 10 or some shit. But like, like, humans play fight. Like, that is part of our natural interactive social experience, just like dogs, just like cats, just like everybody. And it's like part of our unfathoment is because we have devolved away from our understanding and our capability in play fighting. And that's just-- I'm talking as play as a means of social contact and communication. Definitely. Like, play is an important aspect of learning. We're definitely a lot of time to go down this road. No, I'm a goodness. Because we do this-- we do this with dogs. We do it with dogs, but it's with people as well. Because it's not just play. It's not just like, oh, get tired, be tough, whatever, rough house, tumble, it's not that. There's understanding. Part of the reason that humanity is so devoid of empathy now is because we stop play fighting. Yeah. In play fighting is where you start to understand empathy. Well, it turns on all the senses. That's number one. It'll turn on all the senses. And it makes you empathic. Because are you going too hard? Are we playing too hard? I'm sorry. So is that so hard enough? Empathy is literally the ability to see what someone's perspective might be from their viewpoint, which means I have to take into account how you respond. Because this thing has bummed you out and made your devalue play. And if I won't play to continue, I have to not go there. So I not only have to not do-- I have to not do things that I think might be similar to that. And so now I'm trying to assess my actions based on how I believe from your perspective, you're going to take-- that is really-- They will. --understanding of empathy. And that's some serious neural development in the idea of trying to understand others' perspective. People hear me talk about play fighting. And they think what I'm saying is don't be a bitch, learn how to fucking scream. scrap. And of course, you're going to hear me say shit like that sometimes because I really want to be able to talk fight. It's kind of crazy that you can't. It's kind of nuts that somebody can't move some relatively heavy objects, move their body through space and time and fight like if you can't and swim. If you can't do those things, well, the fuck are we doing? What's happening? Yeah, I agree. However, deeper than that is this understanding of how you affect other people. It caused pain. You can cause suffering. You can cause joy. You can cause frustration. You can cause like a sense of accomplishment in somebody else. And you have to be able to do all those things because play has to be challenging enough to be interesting, but motivating enough to continue. And so you're constantly regulating the amount of pressure and joy that you're bringing to the other person to keep them at a motivated level. But the fact that is happening in the mind of a fucking three year old tenure. Like that's bananas. And it literally the more direct we play with one another, the more direct we natural those lessons are. We can learn those same lessons playing soccer, but not as directly. Yeah, it's true. I think everybody should everybody should do. Do you do to a certain degree? Not necessarily pursue it or find their passion in it, but everybody should be familiar with it. Yeah. Like every dog should be if you're going to live inside, you should be house broken. Like every dog should be outstrained. I hate it. House broken. Some broken. Some. Yeah. Yes. House trained. Right. Every dog should be how potty trained. Right. To the degree that I think every dog should be potty trained. I think every person should do it. So it's like a basic. I actually totally agree with that. I just don't know how that would be enforced. We have to like kind of force on people because some people do so. But I don't know how to manage society. I'm a fucking anarchist. I don't know how to. Hey, look, I've got a bunch of other questions that I have written for you. I'm sure I'm going to be seeing you this Saturday at your Sydney seminar. So I'm really excited that we're going to have a chat. But I would like to get you back on the show maybe over the next couple of months because. Great man. Get me on the schedule. This has been really, really enjoyable and very informative. So thanks for coming on, brother. At any time, man, anytime I'm glad to be here. Thank you. Let people know where they can find you. I think it's, is it anal dogs? I think it's my website. I mean, next, if you're just talking Jay, Jack, you're coming up on me. Just, just Google me. You'll be fine. Just, okay. And like, if you want to see more dog stuff, say, Jay, Jack dogs, but if you want to see more fight stuff, say, Jack, I mean, I mean, you know, there's not that many of that's cool, man. Thanks for coming on again. And you have a great flight out here. And I'll be seeing you in a few days. And thanks again, it's been awesome. I'm going to have to wear like compression socks and shit. That's a fucking flight. It's a fly, bro. Wow. So how you make it? I'll see you in a couple days. Have a great one. See ya. Thanks for listening guys. My name is Luke. If you'd like to find out more about my dog training services, you can find me at www.kizana. That's k i z u n a k nine c a n i n e dot com dot a u. I'm also on Instagram at kizana k nine training. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time. [MUSIC]