EP16: Is Age Just a Number?

This podcast is sponsored by Channel Factory, who ensure that your advertising appears in the most brand safe and brand suitable environments across all of your YouTube campaigns. Hello and welcome to the Blue and North podcast sponsored by Channel Factory, I'm your host Lisa, coach to the North. Today we're talking multi-generational work forces is age just a number. I've got two ladies, I'm not going to introduce you just yet, but let's get talking about it. Is age just a number in work? What's your reckon? I think there's definitely some mindsets differences and I think they can be generational, but I think it is more probably about the outlook. So it's not literally, you know, we've been obviously researching this part and evolving, you know, like what's a boomer? What's Gen X? What's Gen Z? I don't think it's as pronounced as that, but I do think there are generational mind sets that are probably more predominant in certain generations. So I don't think it's all about the number, but I think it is about kind of where your head is at and how people with different mindsets can work together quite well. Okay, love that. Yeah, I would like to think that it is because like Nicholas said, like, I think the generations and kind of what you've experienced and your knowledge and how the life path that you've taken should probably be more of a decided between how are you going to connect with people? Not age. I'm looking off to work at a place where I don't feel really that I'm thinking about someone's age when I'm discussing and connecting with them. So yeah, I think I would like to say that it's just a number. Okay, right. I love that. We're already getting right. I've got to introduce you because I am so excited about these guests today. So I'm going to start with you Nick. So Nick, who you've just heard from, first of all, is the business development director of Europe's largest sports podcast network, sports social. But the reason we're so excited is because Nick is a founding member of Bloom, the very first, this very podcast that you listening to, and she's our very own head of podcasts. So I'm so excited that we've actually finally got her on as a guest. So welcome Nick and thank you for developing this amazing Bloom network and for letting all this happen and being in this building that allows us to use this studio. So welcome Nick. This is amazing. Thank you. The second guest that you've just heard from is Grace Sharp. Now planning and partnerships manager from Wavemaker North. The exciting thing about this is why I'm buzzing today. She's the founding member of the MP8 next gen network. So it's a community set up to create accessible networking opportunities for younger members of the industries. That right. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. And you're also on the young bloomers network. So massive focus here from this point of view about the bloom network. And just to kind of clarify for our listeners, Grace, you are six years into your career. You're landing in the Gen Z generation. And we've got Nick 20 years into your career, landing in the Gen X generation. So should we just clarify for everyone what we mean by Gen X Gen Z and millennial and boomer. So Gen Z, youngest, they're like 12 to 27. Millennials is the 28 to 43 Gen X 44 to kind of 59. And the boomers are 60 to 69. So just for the sake of that, as we talk about Gen Z millennial Gen X and boomers, as we go through the pod. So you basically said that the age should be just a number, but is it really? So what do we think of some other barriers in the workplace when it comes to age? I would say one that came to mind when I was reading this question was actually just perception and stereotypical perceptions, like if you go into a situation with perceptions, which obviously it's easier said than done to kind of remove any unconscious bias, any stereotypes that you have. But I think if you can enter a situation with someone and just try to best take the perception away, like you might be really pleasantly surprised. And I think you always end up getting more out of that interaction. You know, if you see someone, you might assume their age, you might assume their knowledge, assume their experience, you know, what kind of attitude they're going to have, how they're going to behave. And I think if you can not do that, actually, you don't know what you're going to get. And you might be pleasantly surprised. So you said then earlier that in your business, so in wavemaker, you're kind of accepted for your knowledge and your credibility and what you bring into the table. Is that like a conscious effort that you think everyone at work applies? They kind of check their bias and they do look at people for their skillset rather than their age? Or I would say so. I think that's just like a testament to a good workplace. I would say so. Yeah, I don't feel necessarily judged. I don't notice it. I don't really think about it. And I think like I said, that is a testament to where you work. If you feel that too, it's probably because your company has put things in place to make sure everyone's kind of welcome. And it's not kind of, oh, you will know that because you're Jen said or you probably won't know that. So I don't feel that. Great. Which is good. Yeah, I'm glad you did. Nick, have you ever felt judged for your age? Three. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about this and I think for me, where certainly when I started out, I think what I felt was women were judged a little bit more like, whereas guys could kind of grow up in the industry. I felt that women who started at a younger age, if they were having a really good time living and working in London, that sort of carried on with them as they matured through their career in a way that didn't seem to happen to the guys. So that was one thing that I kind of noticed, whereas it was cool for the guys to come and mess around for a couple of years and then get serious and get focused on their career. And that was totally fine. And the old stuff was left behind. I did feel there was a little bit of an imbalance in that in terms of if girls behave the same way that seemed to carry with them in the industry. So that was something that I kind of noticed. We're talking about ageism there. Now on the Stigmo's podcast, like we touched on this, like ageism. And there's no right age is there for women in media. So right, we're going well deep now, straight into it. So ageism is prejudice towards older people or younger people. So it's driving misconceptions. I think in media, it goes both ways young and old. It's around our sale. We're talking boomer. You might be six day where people think you're performance worsens. If you've not got the ability, you've not got the experience or your capacity decreases as you age. So is it kind of fueling this? Do we think it still is a thing in the industry? I think there is. For me, I think it's quite troublesome that there aren't a lot of people, you know, I'm in my mid 40s and there aren't that many women, like 10 years down the road in the industry, for me to aspire and to view a career path, taking lots of different kind of options. So I think that's quite hard because it's all about being able to see real models, isn't it? And to kind of think, oh, that's how I'd want to be. Or, do you know what? No, I wouldn't want to do that. Like that's fine too, but I think it's always good to see people like me at a further level. And I think there isn't a wealth of them. You know, obviously there are some great women in very senior roles who are a bit older, but you just tend to see them moving out of the industry much more so, taking on different challenges, which that's kind of fine, but I think we probably do have to address that because there's a reason that they're leaving the industry. And they're taking with them all the experience, all the connections, all these amazing things like we all know so many women who have, who are quit in the industry, who are set up, you know, holistic centres who are doing all that sort of, which is great. But there's a reason for that. And like, what is this? And I think that's something that we need to address. I agree. I think there's like what you said there about those kind of two statements where there's now youngism and there's also the opposite end of the spectrum, which is people are apparently underperforming because of their age. That just then creates this really toxic complex that there's a middle ideal woman in her prime, which is just wrong. And it's also focusing on the hype and negatives of those, you know, generations. But actually, I think of my mom, she's 23 years in media and she's a massive inspiration to me. And if anything, I don't look at her and think, I know more than you, I think you've raised two kids, got not going to work out the mass, but way more experienced than me. So why would that be a negative? And then saying with me, I would hope that I wouldn't lose determination and drive as I perhaps start to think about, was we having a family one day or something like that? I really hope that it would just increase. And I think that's the thing we need to focus on the negatives. And I think that's why, like you say, people might be leaving. The sick of it. So you said that, you know, I like my mom's an inspiration and I don't know more than I. It's dead interesting because George Orwell come out with a quote that said, each generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one before it and why is it than the one that comes after it. And I just say, I just put that in because I thought it's so true that we just think we know best. And at what age do we switch and go, oh, actually, there's loads more information I could get from you. How might we cultivate that in the workplace then where, or is it already happening? Do we think we look at different generations and go, I've got something to learn from you? Or do you still think there's a bit of a divide? I think like from a mindset point of view, I think definitely I've taken a lot from your generation. So thinking about, you know, 20-odd years ago when everything was quite like work hard, play hard, I was just thinking about this. Like, so you to be really friend upon if like at half five. I didn't go into the office in five days a week. Oh my god. It feels like the dark age. But like if you packed up your bag at half five to go home, it was quite friend upon and I used to sit there and watch some of the lads on the team who would have been on because you had massive computer so you could see what people were doing and so. They were on Facebook all day but they'd start working at half five and they book a load of plans and send lots of emails around obviously very busy. Hi, hi, it's 630 and I'm still here. I'm a dying marvelous which is. What's really ridiculous and just pure rubbish but it was like and it would be noted if you left work at the time that you were supposed to leave work which was just ridiculous. So I think when you look at younger generations, I don't feel they would be at night. They just wouldn't take that rubbish. They'd be like no, I've achieved what you asked me to do within my working hours. So I think we're much more outcome focused and I think that's you know something that younger generations have definitely bought in. So there's tons of things like that that you can you can kind of learn where I think we might be facing like some challenges and some barriers is not being in the office altogether so that we can kind of learn from each other. And I do think that gap, that kind of covered gap for people who entered the industry at that point because I think while it's probably helped in some ways that people can be quite authentic, quite true to themselves, but I know what I learned a lot by sitting in an office and observing what other people were doing. Some of that was good. Some of it probably wasn't great but you know that kind of ex what professional behavior, how do you do this is this right? And obviously when you're at home, when you're on and you're just jumping on calls, you don't get that kind of rounded holistic kind of education I guess. So I think that's probably just something that we need to keep working through particularly for people who join the industry during that phase. Yeah you bang on because people see their world from their world view. We can only see things from our own beliefs and values and experiences. So it is interesting when we were pulling some stats so thanks for the pod team, and I was always for pulling these stats, but we've got like the work habits and attitudes. So Gen X is so they're known for valuing job security, stability. We prefer like traditional work environments, set office hours. We've just been institutionalized. We've just done that for years and we want careers stability long term. Whereas the Gen Z is like they're like digital natives. They've grown up with smartphones. They've grown up with heavy consumers of video and instant access and everything's short and sharp. So they're like I want flexibility. I want purpose. I want work life balance. I'm more inclined to seek out remote working. And I think a lot of us think COVID did this, but it actually didn't. It's just actually the generation of I want an emphasis on my mental health and my culture because I've had access to that as I've grown up. What you thought is on that grace. Yeah I think there's definitely a different value exchange now with Gen Z like we expect more in return for the work that we put in. I think that's a good thing. Yeah. I think in terms of like the workplace, I totally agree that like my sister for example, I think she's 17. She will really benefit from like a job that includes like face to face and like communication. And I think that's something that I think is really valuable. Like in person meetings, office days, they are something that I think you can just you can really be your authentic self and understand people as opposed to like digitally. I think that's a little bit of an issue sometimes. It's like I've definitely found like you more prone to being like on what's Apple techs or teams. And actually when you think in you step back, like sometimes I'll write a huge message out and I'm like I don't even know how that's going to come across. I don't even know what that means. I want to kind of say and I'm like I just much rather do it in person. But I think possibly maybe not maybe some people who are a little bit younger than me or maybe more junior, I think they will be more inclined that that face to face. They're not they're not comfortable with. I think that's definitely something Jen Zeke and learn from Jan X. Like pick up the phone, go and over and speak into the face face. I think it's so important, especially in this industry. A hundred percent. It's a real bug bear for me. It's just saying to people just pick up the phone, particularly if there's some kind of an issue because you can have 25 emails that could have been sold in a two minute conversation without either party getting frustrated, which is what can happen so easily on emails. Whereas if you just pick up the phone, everybody still has them like they can talk. And I think you just can't put a high enough value on that that interaction. And that's a classic example of though we see things from our world view. So like we all grew up on phones all absolutely fine. Grace, you probably have to witness it. So to learn it in the industry in mum probably will have sold you lots of that. Great. So when we show it, then we can have an appreciation of it. But we have all these kind of Jen X's kind of getting frustrated. Go and why don't you pick up the phone, but they never needed to. So everyone's there. Like your 17 year old sister is like a Snapchat two seconds is done. I've got access to everyone. And I'm like, I delete Snapchat. Don't know how many years ago. So you know, so I just think this is where we have to go again, we have to remember when Jen X's were going into the workplace, they were going in during a recession. They wanted value. They wanted to make sure they had this like long term job. They were in economic fluctuations. Whereas the Gen Z is now like, I want access to people. I mean, I want vocational training. I want different ways to get into different businesses. Who want a lot of the other? But I'm like, because they've got access to it. We have finger tips. I mean, the whole life we just saw what our parents told us to do. You from this town, you work in this town crack on. And then now these young guns, that's young guns. Oh my word. Jen X's are like, they've got everything available. So they're like, there's a different way of doing it. Let me access these same jobs in a different way. And they don't see why they couldn't do that. And I'm like, yeah, I want to learn that from them. I'm like, that's an amazing skill. It is definitely. And I think it's just so much more diverse. Like sometimes you do come across some people and you sort of think the attitude is a little bit. So at an extreme, I think that is kind of like, oh, well, the world owes me anything. And I'm an Iboyian. So I've rocked up. Now, yeah, I don't think many of us have those in our organization, because you're probably going to get that sense when you interview somebody. And then at the other end, you have the sort of like, you know, this kind of rubbish that people used to say, like, like, this workplaces like a family, well, it's not because if you're not making a profit tomorrow, you'll get rid of me. Like so hopefully my family wouldn't do that. Now's the family. You can make it a nice culture. I want a great way of putting that love that family wouldn't get rid of me. So I think like those two different mindsets again, it's about the compromise and learning both learning a little bit from the the other in terms of my whole value and my whole self work is not determined by my job or by my company. I am a multi-faceted person, which I think younger generations are much better at. You know, they've got lots of different areas of their personality, like kind of soul, the side hustles and things like that. And they're constantly kind of looking for new opportunities to learn and to grow, which we probably were less focused on. It was a lot more linear, I think. So I think somebody talks about squeegelly careers. So I think that's kind of where you want to get to is a more squeegelly career will do better. Yeah. You're right. It's about learning, learning from each other, but also learning about each other. Like obviously we all are used to different types of communication. As we said, like what we've experienced, what we've grown up with, like Instagram is like second nature. I remember downloading it. I was like 12 and I've had my account for that long. It's weird. Obviously that's different, you know, but I think it's not just about saying, well, that's not the way I want to communicate. It's about actually, you say compromise. So if I know if someone would much prefer a face-to-face conversation, I'll try and take upon myself to do that for them. Because again, you're going to get more out of that, you know, interaction. It is about that compromise. Not just going, well, that's not the way I do it. It's not going to do it. You know, if I know someone is going to take something better if it's an email or digest it better if it's an email, then do it. You know, it's about working well together and not just, like you say, seeing your own perspective, seeing your own world. So how do we bridge that gap then? How would we go about it in work, kind of closing the gap between the generations to learn from each other? Because I can imagine if I was 20 coming into work now and I'm like, I can see a better way, I might not have built this confidence skill yet to go. I don't know how to take that to my senior people because again, I'm stereotyping ages and as they know better than me. So I'm going to make I may be struggle to bring that to the table. So what advice have we got for the generations coming into the workplace to share their ways of working? I think it's a testament to the workplace. Like the workplace needs to be obviously welcoming and make it clear that they're happy to take on, you know, ideas and, you know, like meetings and stuff. I think it's whoever's like all straighting a meeting is their responsibility. I think to make sure it's inclusive. So getting in from both generations, you know, to make sure that it suits everyone and everyone kind of understands what's expected of them. I just I do think in person meetings again, I just think they are king with stuff like this. Like if you want people to connect properly, I do think if you can do it in person, it's so much better. Like a way of making we do mandatory Monday. So we have to be in in the office every Monday. And I don't really know anyone else who just thought, I never remember the good gosh. No, well, when it's working from home, but honestly, seeing everyone in the office, everyone connecting, whether you're talking about what you ate, ate on the weekend, you've got people from Gen X, Gen Z, the other generations, all talking about one thing, and no one's thinking about how old they are. They're just connecting over something that they like to talk about. That's it. I have a massive foodie, and I'm always talking to my boss about that, and you start like, you're like, oh my god, they know the same, that's me all they eat, the same restaurants and me, it doesn't matter. So I think it's like, again, that perception thing, just take that away if you can, and also just connecting in person. It won't want to point out about one thing you said there is workplaces have to support inclusion culture, but it is our responsibility. Totally. So whether you, like you said there, if you're managing the meeting, then you create that space for people to go, everyone's going to be listening to it this meeting, why it is, can you bring forward? So I think take that out of today, it's your responsibility, whatever it is you are, and whoever leads the meeting or whatever's getting said, take responsibility yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think like the access, that's something like that mandatory Monday gives as well, that's a really important thing because, although probably being a bit age, just here, if you think that younger people are at a more junior level, giving them access to senior people in the company, so that they can kind of get to know them and interact with them. And for me as well, I think, you know, we just need to reconfigure our ideas a little bit. So for me, when I'm in the office, I don't come in on a set day, but when I'm in the office, I'm here to talk to people primarily, because I'm not in five days a week. So I can answer my emails when I'm sat at home on my own at my desk. That's no problem. But when I'm in here, it is about talking to people, getting to see as many people as I can and have conversations. And that has to be the primary goal when I'm in the office, because that's why I've come into the office. And it goes both ways. So again, if you've got someone in your office where, you know, some female male when they go, well, I'm not technological. I don't know how to do that. And you know, it's playing into the bias and the stereotype they're reinforcing your belief of their older so they can't do it. I want to challenge that. And I want anyone listening today just to challenge that. If you hear that in the workplace, say, you're not, it's just that you might have a bit of a limit in belief around because technology has been introduced in your lifetime. You weren't brought up with it. So let me show you how to use it. Let me help you use it. And equally, scientifically proven that just because our brains are all day, it doesn't mean we have less capacity to learn. So if you think anyone is like, oh, they're going to take ages to learn the new system. It's a load of crap. It's not the case. It's a load of fair sets and limit in beliefs that make people go, oh my god, I'm 50. I've not been in the classroom for God knows how many years I'm going to find this tricky, like a struggle or a tricky challenging situation to learn this. So all we can do as younger people is say, let me help you. Yeah. It's all it requires. So again, as well as supporting young people in the workplace, go, you wouldn't say to your granddad. God, granddad, you can't use an iPhone. You know, you would help him use it. So treat it like that. You know, help people get past their fears into learning zones, into growth zones. Well, I think our friend of the podcast former guest said, I was watching something he posted this week. And it talked about, so perhaps our industry actually is quite a good one in this way because what he was talking about is the fact that like we are such a quickly developing industry and what was right last week is sometimes well next week, like we are constantly shifting. And that obviously brings with it challenges for all of us, regardless of age, because you could be an expert in one area. I mean, maybe you were the expert on buying advertising on X. Well, that probably isn't going to be that beneficial, like at the moment, and because everything shifted away from that. So it constantly, obviously, you can give us in post-Rusin drama, it can make us feel a little bit anxious, but that actually is across the board because it doesn't matter what age you are or what stage of your career you're in. Yeah. I think that's the, that comes with the age, just another thing again, like if you can just really remember that and not focus and just so hard to because it's what we're almost, it's like those biases again coming in, like you just naturally like, oh, that person might in your opinion look like they are a gen X. So I'm going to treat them that way. If you just forget that, you're going to get in better situations. Like it's about your experience. And I think personally, my own experience is that like I didn't go to university, start was started in mid or is 19 and everyone else at the same role was about like two or three years older and people now think that I'm about 27, 26. They'll say sometimes I didn't know you were 24. I'm like, all right. And that makes me think like, should I be a manager if I'm winning 24? And then you think, no, no, you've earned it. You've worked hard for six years. Like you, well, allowed to kind of do that. To get the kind of credibility out. How do you show your credibility? I think you've got to have confidence if you don't have that, you workplace has got to instill that in you and make you feel like you can speak up and assert your knowledge a little bit. Again, I'm really lucky that my workplace does that. They give me opportunities to kind of speak up and kind of talk about what I do in my day and stuff like that. And I think that's a really important thing to have in the confidence. And just looking back, like if you've got three years experience and that's bloody good, like reflects on that, you know, if you've got three years experience and that person's got one, yes, you know, they're going to work just as hard as you, but you are allowed to teach them something. And like I have an apprentice, my team's 24 same age as me. The route that he's taking just means that he's his first job in media. And I was like, this is really weird. I'm going to have to tell him what to do. I'm going to have some level of seniority over him. And then I was like, no, it's fine. Bring yourself back down to like you've earned that you can because you have got more experience than it's nothing wrong with that. Defining early careers, that's dead interesting because I worked in like HR teams and early careers was a big thing. I had to challenge every time I read the word early careers. It made me think early, someone's early in that group, I mean in the 20. And it's not as it means a 44 year old has decided to switch careers. And now they've come to the media early careers and 44. So I had to challenge my thinking every time because I expected a room for a 20 year old and they were always a mixed age. So we're constantly challenging our biases. So on that then, because I've experienced this in the workplace myself where someone looked very young and they were a manager and they were like, I'm finding things challenging because I look so and they did look very, very young. So what do we do about that? What advice would we give to the listeners then around if you look young and playing work? It's not that you're playing into the stereotype, but people just think you're inexperienced. What do you do? Some one should have to prove themselves almost like they're not like I said. But I think just putting yourself out there if you can, like I know it's some people as easy said than done if you're not kind of naturally confident, but if you can put yourself out there, make sure you're speaking up in meetings, making sure that even if it's not meetings like sending around emails or anything that kind of just shows a little bit of like you have been working in the industry for a while and you've earned that place. Yeah, I think it's a hard one to be honest. Yeah, I think you're right. So I think put yourself forward is definitely the way to kind of grow, grow a spot like kind of respect and gravitas, I guess. And you can do that in lots of different ways. So it might be I've like setting up something in the workplace that might be like a social committee, you might get involved with the diversity in your, so just to get people seeing you in a different way as well as doing your day-to-day job, something like that might kind of quite help because obviously it can be hard and if you're trying to go and speak to clients, if they have a perception about you based on how you look, that can influence, you know, we've all been in the room where people don't talk to us or they talk to the mom, they talk to the older looking person, they talk to you, whoever, and you're of it like, hello. Yeah, yeah. But I think you have to bring stuff to the table for them to go, okay, I need to engage with her because she knows what she's doing. She's taking responsibility for this, she's the one who updates me on the email, like you said. Yeah. So it's steps like that, I think would be the advice. Yeah, totally great. Bring something to the table. So that's exactly what I used to have to do. I wouldn't say so now, but when I was a bit younger, I did look younger for my age. So when I used to stand in front of people talking about training and then my years of experience, they were all, I could see them all, I didn't know the maps in the net going, how she done that for nine years and done that for eight years. I was like, I want this year. And so I was just like, make the implicit explicit, I'm like, yeah, I've done that for nine years, I've done this for eight years, I've got this experience here and yeah, I do look younger than what I am. And so I didn't have to tell people my age because sometimes I felt like I needed to, but instead I'd go with the credibility. Here's why I'm credible. Here's where I've got the experience in this. Yeah, I started working when I was like four, but no, I mean, I did I had a job when I was 12. God, that's the generational, isn't it? So what about then? What about this stereotype? So again, because I've seen this a lot, the mums of the group. So you know, when we have like a woman in the team who is a tad older, and then becomes the mother of the group, and then they go, I don't know how I get out of that now. I mean, we don't really have, are we talking about in the workplace? Yeah, yeah, do you not have like a sort of. We don't really. No, that's what I mean. In my friendship group, we do. Okay. And in all honesty, like we all are a little bit like that. And it's, I think it's just because we enjoy it. I think as soon as that's used, maybe in a negative way, I think that's when it starts to get dangerous. So if you're trying to maybe force someone into kind of a role, then that's not right. But I think my experience with that is like one of my friends, she's loved booking the holiday. She'll get stressed out. She's not booking the holiday or organising something. And we call her the mum of the group. But we know that because that's she likes it. and it's something that she sees positively. I think as soon as it turns into a negative and it's used to kind of maybe downplay someone's skills, like that's obviously not good. But yeah, I think the same. I think that is probably more personality than age-led, that kind of, because there are certain people who have that personality, but I think as well, you know, if you find there are times when stuff like, say, mine gives per client, that would sort of be handed over to me and you just have to push back on that immediately, it'd be like, sorry, why am I, like, why would I buy a gift when you don't, like, why would a bloat not and why would I do it? Like, because it's almost seen as that, oh, well, women do that. So I'd be very quick to push back on that. And I think you just really have to do it in the instance of going, no, I sorted the gifts last week so you can sort this one and just pushing back or embrace it if it is something that you love doing, like, looking all days and you're the organizer, then, you know, like that. Right. Go with it. Like, I don't think you need to be afraid of it if you actually enjoy those bits, lean into it and do it. But if you do feel you're being put upon, that's when you have to kind of speak up and say, guys, are you organized the thing last week so somebody else needs to take a turn on this? Yeah, we spoke about that in loads of the pods haven't we, like societal expectations on women. So, you know, as well as the age thing, you're not allowed to age. There's no right age for women to be a woman and I have pivotal point in a career. Can you be working mom under a mom and a career woman? So all of that is societal expectations and what you're talking about there is so we're subservient and we're supposed to be really helpful. So therefore we're supposed to make the tea and buy the gifts for the clients and arrange the parties and all of that. So you're right. If it's your strength and you're getting valued for it and you get recognised for it fine, but if it's become in, I didn't want to do it this time or no one else is putting the hand up, then watch for your people pleasing drivers. If you're there in that meeting and everyone's like, who wants to organise the party, the Christmas party this year and no one's speaking up, here's the top tip for you, recommend someone else to do it. So Dave, you're really good at doing that. I don't need to do it this year. Yeah, I mean, or simply stay, I've done it the last three years, so I really think it'd be a great opportunity for someone else to do it and pull yourself out the ring because they will all wait because men will sit there in an uncomfortable silence until a woman speaks up. So 100% watch those societal expectations. All right then. So what about then like this mutual learning experience? So we spoke about kind of skill setting work. What can we do about mutual learning in terms of sharing life experiences because we talked about their work skill, so how we might exchange skill sets, but what about what we've got to learn about life? How might we be doing some of that inside and outside of work? I think I like classic. Obviously, it's just like really good listening skills, not again, assuming things and not actually listening to what people are saying. Also having empathy, like you don't know what that person's experienced. I don't know what a Gen X experience, so there's lots of things that I've experienced I've not. So I might not understand them, but I can empathise with them. I think that's something that you should have with anyone, no matter what age, but I think there are probably two things that if you can go into situations with that, you probably love that because you know, because from what you were just saying then, where I don't see a lot of empathy sometimes is when the boomer generation and Gen X generation go, why are these kids not buying houses? Why is not on a car and why have you not got all this stuff? And it's like you would really privileged in your generation, your in economic decline. It was like, so when you were able to get assets and maybe one of the reasons Nick, when you said before, people are able to retire and go and do a different different job, is because they've got assets, they've got the latest truth. And the generations today don't have that. The average time they're buying houses, what, 36 now? So you've got 10 years yet. So some of that is having empathy to each of the generations, like especially the younger, because that's the where I see the least empathy for the old generation to go, why have you not got all the things we've got? Yeah, and it comes into political as well, like you obviously want people, a lot of people have different views on things and I think kind of argue in and disconnect in and not really even trying to understand what that person might think that let's discuss it. I think there's a lot of people probably that might not agree with what the grand agrees with. And you know, actually they family, you might not like that, but it's about listening and thinking, actually, no, do you know why I think that? Because they probably don't and vice versa. So I think, yeah, it's just listening skills and empathising with people. Yeah, I think so. And I think like creating opportunities for people to connect. So that can be things like like, bloom is great at doing that. The mentorship, that's a really good thing because you should be going into that if you're a mentor thinking that you're going to learn as much from the person that you're mentoring as they're going to learn from you. And I think, you know, if you go in with that mindset, then hopefully that is what you will achieve. So things like that and just making sure that we kind of don't silo too much and we've lots of opportunities to come together because it's important to have like the young bloomers, but it's also important that people who go along to those events come to some of the other events so that they can kind of have that collaborative focus and things like the book club are good because they connect you over shared interest because it doesn't all have to be work or it can be stuff like that. So I think that's quite important. All of that. So let's summarise today then. I'm taking out of this kind of conversation that we need to come at everything from this curious approach. Grace, absolutely taking your, but you know, let's put our biases to one side, let's see people for their skill set and credibility and let's find moments you've talked about there in working person. I'd go anywhere for it, even if it has to be on a team's call, find ways to connect and come at it from a curious learning point of view. Grace, any parting thoughts from today? I think just go into situations, you know, don't issue, don't judge your book by its cover, you know, that can be said for anything, but especially with people in the workplace, you know, just if it's easier, try and think of something that you enjoy, see if that person enjoys it too, chat about that, connect over that, don't worry and trust yourself a little bit, you know, if you're worried about maybe what you're worth in terms of how long you've worked in in Australia or what age you are, just trust yourself and have some confidence. Love that, Nick. I think just communication is key basically, so just, you know, basically the same that it's all about having open dialogues with people and being open to learning from whatever generation you might be from and not making kind of decisions or deciding what a person is or isn't based on their age or their generation or even their experience because, you know, a different perspective can bring so much of value to any situation and I think there's a place for kind of everybody in your workplace and if you lean into that, you can like get so much more out of everybody. Yeah, love that. I'm going to end up with like a statement, again, that was put in our stats here from the team. So glorious Steinem says, we need to remember across generations, there is as much to learn as there is to teach, which is a perfect roundup for today. So thanks both of you who are laughing at you today to find out more about our guests, scroll down on the description for all of the links and thanks to our sponsor channel Fattray, which means each month we're able to inspire you and get deep into the info you want and need to live fulfilled and empowered personal and professional lives. If you like what you're listening to, share with a friend because everyone deserves to blue. [Music]