EP151: How Oregon Recruits and Develops Players to the Pros with Mike Mennenga

[MUSIC] This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast. This is the podcast helping coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to provide the ultimate resource for making sense of applying contemporary skill acquisition ideas within basketball. Within this podcast, we unpack how an ecological dynamics framework impacts our perspective of the game. If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, this is the podcast for you. [MUSIC] Welcome to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. On today's guest, we are joined by the heartbeat of Oregon Basketball coach Mike Menengat. He's been on the Doug Spench for over a decade helping transition the program into the Big Ten era. A former director of player development turned elite recruiter. He's the guy responsible for finding hidden gems and turning them into NBA talent. Welcome coach Menengat. Oh my gosh. Thanks so much, George, for that. I need to save a recording desk so I can play that for Mrs. Menengat, you know what I mean? So, but no, I appreciate that. It's been an amazing basketball journey looking back on that path. And I'm very grateful and thankful to be here at the University of Oregon. There's no question about that. Yep. I will get into it through our conversation, but I think the main question, the biggest thing people want to know is like, how do you do it? Like, you produce so much NBA talent for so long now, you know, I think 10 plus years, how do you do it? Wow. I wish there was just an exact science in regards to it. I think it starts off with just like anything else in any industry and any job, you know, you've got to have a passion for what you do. And I'm passionate about young people taking ownership, you know, over their life path and getting into that spot. And basketball is the mechanism and kind of the centerpiece that we share when we get in relationships like that. So like I said, I wish there was an exact science as you know, George, you know, whether it's in recruiting, whether it's in player development, whether it's in a game where you're facing an opponent, whether you're the favorite, not the favorite. Every situation has their own unique dynamic. And if you're not passionate about it, you're not going to have the will or the want to, if you will, you know, me to seek out that unique dynamic that's going to be the difference in either pushing this player to be a pro from something or just to be better to be a starter from a team to get a win. So it starts there, you know, you got to be passionate about what you're doing. Are there any habits stay on the players about like, you know, make sure you do this consistently? You know, are there any things that you're talking to them on a daily basis about in terms of, all right, this is what's been successful for other players. Maybe it could be successful for you. Let's see if you can work out. Are there any things like that? Great question. Great question. Again, like I said, you know, I wouldn't be doing to just serve as something like I said, like every player and opportunity is unique. So there's a used to be could dynamic there that separates them from the others. However, you know, I mean, from a basketball standpoint, I think the number one thing in this may come out of, you know, sideways to some people, you know, I mean, and some people, I think we'll get it, you know, it's the level of physicality of elite basketball, whether it's at the power for level, just division one, basketball, division two, division three. If you want to win a championship or you want to separate yourself and be an all conference guy, a pro guy, the level of physicality, the level of force within a 40 minute game, a 32 minute game, a 48 minute game, that you have to consistently deliver. You know what I mean? I think it takes a while, especially for a young player to wrap their head around what goes into all that. Because now all of a sudden, George, we're tapping into not only your skill set and how we train and how we get you ready to perform those skills when you're getting hit. You know, now we're talking about building your body up. We're talking about taking care of your body. We're talking about nutrition, that dynamic. So I think the first thing you've got to start dialing in on if you want to really separate yourself as a player and as a coach, what I'm going to talk about is just the level of physicality that you're going to have to play with and play through. Yeah, I agree. And it's never more obvious than if you say court side. Obviously you get that pleasure every time helping out the head coach as the assistant there. But it's never more prevalent with like whenever I'm sitting court side and I see the game, it's so much different than watching it on the league pass or your league TV or whatever. 100% George. I mean, I'm right there with you. Like we just said, we played already state last night and the Ed Dylan Brooks is in town. The sons are town playing the Blazers. And I think he's a great example of somebody who's kind of understood that component and really made it work for him. So to your point, George, on the same way, I take advantage of our little geographic location every once in a while. I go up there into a Blazers game or when our guys were town playing them, I see those consequences I can. Just take it in and just kind of get reintroduced myself to exactly that. The level of physicality, the level of force you have to play with, play through, play against. It's something that sometimes I think is lost in the sauce as you will. As you think about player development, you know, spend so much time with our ball handling, we spend so much time with our shooting. And sometimes I think that stuff gets over par or times than just, you know, body on body contact. Can now what are you doing? I want to rewind a little bit. So could you give us a little brief history on your, you know, your kind of journey? You started East Coast, worked out your built your career out there for a while. And now you, you know, your West Coast guy, you've been there for 10 plus years. I would imagine you call it home. How did that all come to happen? And also for the question I have here is, you know, you were quoted as saying your former boss, Jim Baron, saying your basketball life, what key lessons did you learn from him and throughout that journey? Wow, wow, well, I'm going to try to keep this brief and very, very short for you, everybody. But I grew up in Dallas, St. Owen, Illinois, Central Illinois, son of a junior high coach, high school coach, AAU coach. You know, we were draw a playup on the napkin guys, you know what I mean? You know, and that's how I grew up to older brothers played and just was born of the game. Probably was more talented in baseball, but we loved ball basketball. My dad, we were just into it, you know, and fast forward as I played ball, and says, your college, more headstate. And the networking piece, I didn't really quite understand at the time, you know, and how important that was. But my dad was into that culture. And I just remember all these lessons he'd teach me into this day. It just digrees a while. I'm here today is the using basketball and the network around it. The brotherhood, the fellowship of rounded not only to grow as a coach, but to also build a recruiting network, build a coaching network, all these things. I had no idea what this was happening, you know, as I was coming up, it's beautiful. And long story short, got done more at state, went back home, started coaching at Rantville High School, whatever. Through my dad's relationships, we got to know the University of Illinois staff really well. And at that time, there was a GA there by name of John Giannini. And I don't know if you know Coach Cee, we developed an amazing relationship. And I went my way, he went his way. He became the head coach at Rowan. And meanwhile, I'm coaching and starting to do an A UL in Illinois, I'm running cans, got players, and about three years after that little run at Illinois, he hits me up. This is kind of before so far. And he said, "Hey, Mike, I just got the job at the University of Maine." You know, you think he could bring some Illinois guys to Maine? And we were gone, you know, and we played or we were there. So that's when the journey began. So from the University of Maine, with Coach Cee Nini, to the University of Oregon now, 12 season into it, it's been crazy. And then from that, Maine, you know, George, we, not every player is sitting in their bed at night, dreaming about, oh man, I'd love to be a main black bear. You know what I'm saying? You know, so we had to get real creative with our recruiting. And Coach Cee was like that. But Canadians, they didn't care, you know, they'll go to Maine. And so I started really, really getting active in Canada. And we coached Cee Nini at that time there, too, George, think about this. And then, nine is super fascinating. And I just walked into all this, you know, New England press go out, let's, little people do that, oh, and then in the late 90s, the hotbed of America was in Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut. That was a New England press go out, let it conference. From main central institute to New Hampton, to Bridgerton, to Winchington schools, say Thomas Moore, all these players, they blew my mind. You know, in my backyard in Maine, all these players are starting to come into this part of the country. And obviously now as prep schools taking on a whole incredible dynamic, but that was the foundational piece. So I'm CEO of Coach G working Canada, get involved with prep schools. And man, we flow. Next thing, you know, we turn that around. I go to the University of Buffalo. And that's where my Buffalo jury began, George. I worked at the University of Buffalo five years. They're only to Iowa State for one year. Think about that. I'm an Illinois guy. Made it to the big time. You know, man, Iowa State, I was so fired up. But that was my first lesson in like real world. I was so lost in just the love of ball and passion for ball coaching that didn't even think about there was a business side to it. You know, if that's how it to be free, it practically was. And my move to Iowa State kind of made it like, oh, wow, this is official official. You know, and that's just it wasn't a Buffalo remain, but goes a dream move. And one story short, the coach there got bought out of his contract with the new AD. New AD came in the mid year. Coach and his distance were out. And I'm taking wow. I didn't do anything wrong. You know, we won 20 games. That was reality. Checked for me. George. And this is where coach Baron comes into play. And another piece comes into so we go back to Buffalo. And there I start reconnecting with Toronto. And I'm running a you and I'm coaching high school ball now at nickel school in Buffalo. That's where your connection, that Canadian connection comes from is from that kind of experience being in Maine having to be creative with the recruiting. In a sense, it was like a constraint that really helped to develop that pipeline from Canada there. I mean, honestly, George, me getting let go at that time. I'm sharing this because I hope all young coaches and people, I mean, this is a business side to this too. And that was my first lesson on that. And that part started straight into pipelines. So at that time, Kato's going through a Renaissance, George, you know what I mean? Dylan Brooks was in junior high. Andrew Widkins was on the way, you know, Tyler and his Dylan. And I mean, it was just a run of players. And I was in the middle of it all. And that's a whole other podcast. At that time, I was coaching nickel school. Jim Baron just got the job of Kenesha and Kenesha is like five minutes from my house. I'm living in downtown Buffalo. And coach Barrows has St. Bata, Vichet, everybody in the business. Probably people are listening to no coach. Baroness is an amazing basketball person in a awesome guy to work for. Unbelievable to hang out with whatever you want. Coach Barrows, the man, I love that guy. Essentially, we had known each other for a while because obviously he recruited those areas. And then when Coach Barrows got the job to, you know, and he hit me about a week later and offered me an opportunity. And I jumped all over it, George, because you know, he allowed me to be at home. That's another part. Sometimes this game takes you away from home in my career. I spent two years away from home without my family just coach. But look at you. You're in Brazil. So I jumped all over it and it got me back in. And not only did it get me back in, but Coach Baron taught me so much. Different. That I needed to know to be the guy in today. So essentially not only did Coach Baron save me and in my career in a crazy way. Got me back in and got me back going at the college level. But he also changed and made me a better coach. And for all Chitzen Purchase, he did save my basketball life. And you guys had some great couple of years there. It's interesting. It's like, you know, people say it's like, you're only as good as your last job in this business. So it's like maybe some coaches are listening and like, yeah, we could have got another job. And it's like, you know, you get fired and we'd wait to see it. And how easy, how realistic is that, right? And then to your point, Coach Baron comes in and, you know, offers me tremendous opportunity that you made the most of as well as a credit to you. And then, George, I think just goes again, any coach, any break player, you make the people around you better, right? That was a big thing when you think about guys like the greats, Kobe, to MJ, to LeBron. They make the game easier. They make them better. Coach Baron really, really, that's probably was his biggest thing. He wasn't a draw play up on the napkin guy. He knows about pushing guys, physicality. He's about pushing pace, creating space, and letting guys go. And a little bit, I know at that time, I needed that. Not only did it that whole fix save my basketball life from a career standpoint, but from a coach perspective, our game is chaotic. You know, there's a spontaneity to basketball, you know, and it's always going. Like football, you tackle, boom, play clock, 40 seconds. Okay, we're gonna hit the, you know what I mean? And that's what I really grew from coach, Baron. And it really has changed me for the better, the spontaneity. I remember I go on the red recruiting, he did, he had to always be like, "Is he spontaneous?" "Is he spontaneous?" And I really put a lot of thought in that. And to this day, that plays a lot into my mind when I'm watching the game, watching the player, what have you? So let's talk about that. Obviously, elite recruiter, you know, the resume speaks for itself. When you're watching, when you're looking for that, you know, "Can he shoot? Can he drive?" "Is he spontaneous?" "What else are you looking for?" And what, you know, what does that mean to be spontaneous if you had to like describe it? Yeah, that's a great question. So just think about the two words that we talked about so far. That, you know, outside of skill set and stuff like that, is physicality and spontaneity. And I think when you think about those two words, whether you're evaluating a player or you're evaluating your own team or what have you, the thing that connects the two, all of a sudden now is a word I use all the time around here is motor. You know, all elite players have got a motor. They're able to get to the next thing, whatever just happened, whether it's a two-and-doken transition off a fetal or a silly turnover of the next reactions, usually the same for an elite player. They're getting after it. There ain't no celebration. There ain't no head down. There's a motor to make the next play. So mount the momentum off a run-out duck or to get the ball back because I just let my guys down. I screwed up. You know, I think there's a certain talent quotient, sure. You know, I think that's what spontaneity is definitely touched on when you think about talent. Do you got to have some talent probably to be spontaneous? You know, so there is a talent quotient when it comes to recruiting, especially when you're a place like Orc, when you've got to be able to go. But now, as you dig deeper, now you start really looking out the physicality, the motor, the passion, and you know, it is he winning. Is he trying to win the game or is he just trying to put up some numbers? So those little intangible elements, I really think, is where championships are won and big games are decided. No, absolutely. I think the effort being able to move onto the next play and just forget about what happened instantly in the game of basketball, I think is an overlook skill because to your point, if you're dwelling on that, you know, if you miss the shot, then you miss another shot in the next offensive possession. It's almost like those two misses in a row compounds. But if you have that mindset where it's just behind you, then it doesn't really matter because you could miss two shots, three shots in a row and then get really down, whereas you could miss one in the first, second, and third, and have a completely different mindset to it. But the fact remains that in the game of basketball, the dynamic, the spontaneous game that it is, it's going to have one, you're going to miss three shots in a row. So you do have to just next play mentality and you can't think about it. 100% Georgian. I think, you know, no element, I think basketball, it makes basketball very unique as we look into these little aspects of it. That he may not be on physical skill set, you know, is it's fontanity, physicality, is that we're all out in the open. If somebody like gets bad body language, it's contagious to the other team, you know, it is contagious to your teammates. So I think that's why great players, when you think about the Kobe's, the MJ's, the LeBraz, they were so, you know, they were very outward, emotional communicators with their guys, whether they were at home up by 20 or down 10 with two minutes to go on the road. There's a certain emotional piece that in basketball that's there, we're in football. There's a helmet, there's a uniform, you're in the game, maybe for two or three plays, you're out of the game for five or seven, eight, ten minutes. Now you're back in the game and I can see maybe in Brazil where you're out of George White people love something. There's it's emotional. It's going back and forth. There's so much at play there. You know, so when you think about those spaces, you're out there, the bad body language, here I'm in reaction, also can influence the pendulum, negatively or possibly. Body language is huge. So I want to move on. When a freshman arrives or, you know, a new player now, the transfer portal, how do you assess their real development needs versus what you think or versus what they think they need, excuse me, then how do you begin implementing this plan, especially with the logistics of all the traveling that you do being where you are in the country? Wow. First of all, just not easy when the travel is not an issue. We have we chose it Oregon to just, you know, we don't even recognize it. They take care of us at Oregon. They give us a man. We're at the spots. No issue. It's different recruiting now, George. And we're up here. So recruiting it does change. But as far as like incoming freshmen, you know, I not have to be repeat myself, but back to the physicality, back to the force, back to that space. I think the initial part is when a kid comes in here, obviously he's got an elite talent. There's an extra dimension to him, you know, so we want to develop that extra dimension while at the same time, not lose that confidence. Grow the confidence that at the same time develop a mindset where I got to look in the mirror and be like, I got to get better. And the number one space for any freshman or any rookie or any young buck to get better at is taking care of your body. Am I in the most elite physical condition? I could be in, you know, I mean, fast to the physicality, back to the force. You know, and this comes down to whether your guard getting hung up on screens all the time, hard to win with a guard that gets hung up on screens all the time. Are you a forward or a wing that can't win a 101 defensive battle? Hard to win games where your threes and fours are a win a 101 defensive battles. I've had this conversation a lot of the last couple of months. You know, I'm with some guys, you know, when we're recruiting, when we're evaluating, are we as college coaches, you know, that's my role now. Just confused sometimes, are we recruiting future pro? Is he a pro? Oh, he's a pro. He's a pro. That guy's a pro. At the end of the day, my job is to win a game. Does he win me a game? Then maybe he's a pro. So I'm really, really careful how we throw that around because at the end of the day, my job here is to develop guys to win a basketball game. So again, when you drill down to it, when you're incoming freshmen, the liberal physicality, the force, the conditioning, that's first and paramount when they come in week one in the center is getting into them. Hey, man, you need to figure out how to win a game. When you go, you don't make a shot. Who are you when the ball is not in your hands? I think any young player needs to ask them now. Now, think if you're a coach, I think a coach, he's asked all their players for that. I really talk to my man like, who are you? Well, you don't have the ball. What are you doing? Now, I will send you your allow yourself to get into these spaces about, oh, man, you know what? I don't get low enough. My core ain't right enough. I'm not able to like hold my position. You know, I'm getting hung up on screens all the time. Coach, you know what I mean? I need to do. Okay, well, the other sudden the player starts to take an ownership over those things. So these questions are very important when freshmen to your question, you know, to get into because again, we're more than coaches. We're trying to mentor these young men who have elite talent, have an extra dimension, have something to continue to grow that confidence with some humility, obviously, where they take ownership over. My favorite words, George, at the end of the day, man, and I'll surmount it with this. I'm coaching every position in October, November, December, every possession. I do this, do that, whatever. I've been around some really some great teams and some great players. My favorite words in February, March. I got it, coach. I got it. Stand over there, coach. Okay, man. All right, Brooks, take, turn me into a cheerleader, pitcher, turn me into cheerleader. You turn me into a cheerleader in March. My job is done. That's an organ, that's when the players go. That is an organ. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've had some, you know, the players have stayed healthy. So I'm just wondering like, how much of that is to the kind of time that you're putting into the weight room, getting stronger, working on that physicality. And then how do you also kind of teach defense, you know, teach the game outside of the weight room on the court, but to improve the conditioning level as well. So like outside of the weight room, how are you improving the conditioning with the actual basketball? Great question. You know, I mean, obviously everything that I do from an individual-based coach, Alvin Zahalfin coach for, he allows guys, he creates space and allows guys to really open up. Well, at the same time, holds them accountable. The simple plays, you know, simple turns, like Benzger knees, two-ham, things like that. But at the same time, to your point, George, we're creating space, playing in space. That's a team thing right there. And how we take this on the court from the force and the physicality and we mirror sports is like, you got to practice and play or develop with pace. Everything that we do is with pace and play. And if it's just like a shooting for Gresham, George, you know, we have a seven-shot shooting grid, we'll put five minutes on the clock. Man, you've got to do five in a row without missing two in a row from each spot. And everything's got to, there's a pace. There's a pace to it. There's a little adversity to it, you know? So whether we are in an individual workout or whether we are in a practice format, here at Oregon, we're big on developing and playing with pace, but at the same time, having some accountability. Like it matters. Like, visceral matters. We don't really move to the next thing until we accomplish what we need to get done, you know, in this one. So for example, I'll give you like a back to shooting, George. I may be like, hey, man, we're into the seven spots. You know, we're going to make five without missing two in a row before we move on to the next spot. And so we're always just kind of developing these little stepping stones. So now players just kind of know, you know, instead of going out there shooting a hundred shots, hey, we're going to make a hundred threes. We're going to make a hundred threes in the next five minutes. So that's a different deal, you know? So there's always got to be a certain like accountable pace to play. And I think when you start thinking like that, you know, now all of a sudden the conditioning, the spontaneity, the physicality, and our style of play here when we're at our best, we like to press after made basket and stay into it. So the way our philosophy kind of embraces all those things that we just kind of touched on. It's interesting because you could make a hundred shots, but if you want to make a hundred shots in five minutes, you're automatically going to be tired. You know, like it's a lot harder to do that in this short amount of time. And I always think that the coolest thing about our game is the shot clock. The fact that you have to shoot the ball with a certain time, it just makes it so much, you know, it adds so much more to the game. And to your point, I think we spoke about it earlier. It just keeps the game emotional the whole time. You know, you're always on the go. 100% I mean fatigue is a part of our game, George, getting tired. Who you are, and you're just shooting a hundred shots, casually in the gym, is not who you are when the fire is in your chest, but four minutes to go in the game. And you maybe just missed a couple of threes. Now you've got to knock that a shot. That's you. That's really you. And so he'll back to your question about, you know, how do you do it at Oregon? How do you take that to the court? You know, so we're not sitting here rewriting basketball by no means is the same drills, it's the same skills. It's just maybe a tweaker here there with accountability. Maybe a tweaker here there with creating an adverse situation. You know, I mean that really, really drills down to what we got right here. You know, what kind of ticker do we really got? I want to move on a little bit. I don't know if you can speak about this, but I hope you can. The matchup zone, can you briefly explain this to coaches this thing and why it's work for your program now? Wow, that's a great question. Probably the best analogy I could give it in the instant coaches that have heard this before, you know. Any, with the base ball here as a baseball guy, you know, a bit so, and I didn't have a 90 mile an hour fastball, 100 mile an hour fastball. So our matchup zone, blue press is exactly that. It's just our noble curves. Any, you think about a great player when they're rolling and they're just having a they're in rhythm. You know, if you allow a player to have rhythm in basketball, they're going to get you. They're going to get you. So back to the chaotic idea of basketball. We want to create a little control chaos. So our matchup zone really, really allows us to throw a curve ball out of team. Yeah, our three quarter court, one, two, two, that goes back to what we call our blue matchup. The main premise of this thing is to protect the middle. Keep the ball on the sidelines philosophically as much as we can. So we really, really squeeze the middle. You know, at the same time, we really, really want to try to identify, okay, who could handle the ball? Who can't handle the ball on the other team? And probably the interesting dynamic that we do a lot of is and a man and some coaches may get it, may not get it. But once the ball leaves the point guard's hands, unless they traditionally, it goes back. Four man takes it out. The ball goes into the one man. We want to get the ball out of the one man's hands. But as soon as it goes back to the four, one on one, we want, we focus on making guys who are not used to triggering offense, not bringing the ball up the court. We want the force to ball into their hand. So it's not necessarily just K out. We do have that component where it's a running jump, more of a running jump component. But primarily we want to force the ball into non ball handlers hands. For every is the number one, they're not used to it. They may turn it over. Number two, you're not transporting the ball as quickly as a point guard or a two guard. You know, they're so they're not getting down hill on him. So now guess what? Now we're burning shot clock. Now whether you're guard or a four man, if you find yourself on the sideline, we'll go get you. We'll trap on the sideline. You find yourself in a bad area of the court just before half court or just over half court on the sideline. Those are trap zones. We're very aggressive in those spaces. So again, that's our back court into our match up. We're just trying to burn shot clock. We're trying to get you guys in a space where you've got somebody else triggering offense. So when you do cross half court, you may have to spend like no, there are three or four seconds just to get the ball into your page. These hands just to trigger your action. You know, and so once that happens now, George, now the center in a two or three big hands. That's the number one thing. Big part about a match up is a it's kind of an illusion. It's a mirage. We really, really want to sell the zone look. Essentially we're matched up. But we want to get you in your zone offense. Instead of your motion game. And so once you start getting a team into their zone offense, and stand them up a little bit, that's a little bit more easier to match up with that. So right now, I said, no, the principalities that some just general principles here of our match up is the top two guys of our match up. You know, we really want to hold them there as much as we can. The bottom guys of our match up, the three, the two on the bottom on the wings are up. And they are responsible for corners, both corners. So let's say hypothetically, George, you're on the right bottom of our two three. I'm on the left bottom of the two three. All right. For whatever reason, ball reverses quick. And your guard on your side has to take the slot. And now the saying your force just take the wing. Meanwhile, they're running somebody to the corner to overload the zone. That would be me. Big reason for that is because we usually recruit this. We want to have a guy like right now. We got a guy like Nate Biddle, who led the big tennis shop blocking last year. You know, we want to keep him in the middle of the court as much as we can. So again, it's kind of a little bit of a hybrid, you know, of a two three. But we are matched up. And then the biggest thing I think, George, you know what I mean? And to initially teach it, think about it like this. When the ball's on the top and you're on the wing on one pass away. And our man, I'm denying you the ball. And our match up, my chest is to the ball. So it's two different things. That's kind of how we show it and initially teach it. Deny one pass away. Chefs to the ball. One pass away where we're in our matchup. So it's more where we're in the passing lanes. And our man, we're really inside out matched up. You gave a lot of weight. You gave a lot of weight there with the zone. I didn't expect you to go into so much detail. One follow up question I have is, do you guys change it depending on who you're playing? So the scout is that how you change it? Oh, you know, that's the beautiful thing about a George. You know, I mean, a lot of the times is organic. You know, and every team like the way our 2019 sweet 16 team, Ram Blue was a little bit different than our 2014 that Ram Blue. Our our 19 team was filled with athletes. We were 90, Peyton, Luke King. You know, I mean, we were athletic and long and we were pressing. Our 2020 14 with in Folly Dota in the middle. We were down to six guys. So it was more of like a real half core inside out. So that's the beautiful thing about the match of the way coaches implement it. And I give him a lot of credit. He's a genius for it. He's just in a sense how a team kind of evolves offensively in a motion game. Our matchup kind of evolves to the personality of our players in a crazy way. Because a big part of the George any matchup is communication. How they communicate. How they, you know, react to each other. How they listen to each other. So it's interesting every every year that we've ran it. It's been a little bit different. Can you on the guys who've been running it? And then like you coaching it and obviously the staff coaching it. Is it just a matter of, you know, holding the players accountable to communicate to be at the right spots? What else do you guys doing to teach this? I think I think it now will send you're getting down to some just fundamentals that you teach in any man to man deep as two. Number one, and any matchup. If you're getting beat off the bounce, you know, in a matchup zone or any zone. What else you're going to do, you know what I mean? So again, it's really if reaffirming, you know, winning your one-on-one battle with the ball. You got to stay in front of the ball. You can't run a matchup zone or a zone and get beat off the dribble. You know, that's inexcusable. It's inexcusable in man, but even more so in the zone. And now we're getting into a little bit of an organ philosophy as far as like, you know, the length of the physicality, the force. You know, we need guys that want to go rebound the ball. Because if we're in a matchup zone, you know, we're going to force a lot of hopefully contested shots, perimeter shots. And so we're going to have to get guys that already have to be a little ranger and guards that want to stick their nose in their grab four to five rebounds game. So the matchup zone, like I said, it just kind of takes on a personality of its own, pending on the team, but the fundamentals and the accountability factors pretty much remain the same. One more question is, do you find any differences in, you know, the offense getting maybe what they want versus the matchup zone now, especially with the trend in like three point shooting going up. Obviously, it started in NBA, but now you know, college basketball is seeing the same kind of trend, which is more and more three point shots are being taken. And now do you see that like now that you guys are playing in that matchup zone any kind of, or maybe we need to play mad a little bit more of this game so we don't give up these open looks from three. You know, I remember last year, you know, the players era, you know, we played Alabama in the championship game and they just played it as such an incredible pace of play. And then what NACE trying to do is try to get to the rim or you shoot and threes. And to a big part of our matchup, to be honest with you is, is you got to get it set. You got to make the basket and got to get set. You know, I mean, if you're not set, you know, something you think is so basic, right? And so probably the most important keystone of our whole blue press in matchup is getting it set. And Alabama just did a tremendous job of just allowing us to kind of get set. So to your point, we were forced to play man again, you know, and we just couldn't keep up with them. And so there are teams that get in the groove or getting a space there where you got a man up, you know. And a lot of times that's what it comes down to, right? Me versus you, you know, matchup zone, man to man. Hey, man, it's me and you can now, now you start getting back to the initial questions that you asked me. You know, usually when it's me versus you, it's down to skill. It's coming down to physicality, want to force how conditioned I am. You're tired. I'm tired. Balls there. Who's getting it? That's some good stuff. No, man, that's great. I appreciate you sharing all that. I know that was a lot. So you gave away some really good things for coaches to pick apart and see what, you know, what they want to add. If they want to add that kind of matchup zone, I find it fascinating to match them zone just because like you can do so much with it, you know, start in the zone, go to the man, maybe you go like to your point when the four man gets the ball, maybe you go off the first or the second dribble. You know, there's just so many things that you can do. Maybe when the ball gets to the 45. So it's like, there's so many different ways when you can match up. There's just a lot of things you can do with it. Oh my God, George, it's crazy. I thought you could either go back to like trapping the corners, force the ball in the corners. We're auto-trapping the corners. We've gotten creative with our ball screen coverages because we keep our big guy in the middle. Here at Oregon, we're dropping trap. But I think if you ran a true matchup zone that really fix about forcing side-lying basketball, if you applied that to the half-court, you could ice screens and that idea, you know, I think that would be super effective if you had a really good communication there with your top of your zone and the bottom of your zone and in our matchup zone. I like, I always talk about our guy in the middle, be in the boss man, be the boss, mate, be the boss, thante, be the boss. Not jacks and make the boss, payton, make the boss. You're in the middle there. You're the boss. So if you've got a really good boss, you can have fun with different types of ball screen coverages and things like that too. Oh, absolutely. I want to ask you one quick question before I ask you our last question. I appreciate your time. Every program you've been, the teams have gotten better and better as you've been there. How much of that is new players coming in? So like you're, you know, and the staff's ability to recruit and how much of that is you developing the players. Continuity is very important, George. I mean, whether it's a team with players that are carrying over, whether it's coaches like here at Oregon, I've been here for 12 years. Coach has been here for 15. Coach Stubblefield's been here for 12. Coach, you know, so we there's continuity. That counts, man. I want a staff work in the locker room. So that's important, especially in I L here. I think you're most important players. You're most important recruits wrong campus and you've got to start there. And I think that filters down to how you develop your players too. You know, now you don't take it now. They're recruiting. And I think I heard Coach Painter say it best when we're recruiting somebody. And I believe that I'm still on his stuff here. You become us. We don't become you. We want players to really want to be here. You become a duck. The ducks don't become you. So essentially that communication has to be very, very, very much solidified by the time the player gets on campus. And obviously the guys that stay are already are buying into that. So now of a sudden, now you got that foundational culture in there. So retaining players super important, but at the same time, nothing like new blood, new guys coming in and just kind of, you know, bringing in their own energy and it brightens up the locker room. It stimulates the team and the program, you know. So I think it's one of the biggest reasons why, you know, think about like Coach Alpen. He's been doing it for 45 years and he's excelling at such a high level. Many loves players, loves ball. And I think sometimes that turnover, you know, sparks you and challenges you for the next thing. And I'm sure Coach Hurley and his staff at UConn feel are coming up those back-to-back championship to do that, you know, the new blood. We're retaining players. So we've got to be able to do it like this, you know, I think that's quite natural, you know, I mean, we need it both. Yeah, and I guess those, you know, the new players coming in, challenges the players that are already there. Not to get off that, but seriously, man, the talent level that's out there and ball. These young kids, I mean, it's pretty ridiculous. So you look at the freshman in college basketball now, ridiculous talent. And now you're getting more European players too. So now it's, you know, even more players coming into college basketball. So it's just, you know, within IL, I know there's been a lot of talk about it, but you're going to get more and more talent at the end of the day. We just want to see better basketball, right? Like at the end of the day, that's it. We want to see better basketball over and over again. So you're going to be getting that, I think it's awesome. So Mike, like I said, thank you so much for your time. It's very gracious with your time. I really appreciate all that you've had to share with us. And just letting us, you know, know what's going on at Oregon there. You know, obviously an amazing program, lots of history. They actually, the women's team came to play in London, I think a couple of years. So I got a chance to watch the women's team play a couple of years back. And you know, just seeing how they walk, everyone had matching shoes. That kind of culture. So it's, you know, awesome for you to just open up on the men's side now as well. So I want to say thank you. Before I let you get out of here, I want to ask our transformative tip question. Something we ask all our guests. If you could leave coaches of one piece of advice that would instantly improve, the quality of their practice environments. What would that be? Great question, George. I don't take it lightly. I'm going to get back to the ideology of the question posed that I quote, you know, really, really drilling down and everything that you do of who you are, getting your players to value, playing the game without the ball. You know, really, really hammering home the things like whether it's a good screen, whether everybody's doing it now, whether it's tracking deflections, just all these little intangible things that are in plays that are on. We know as coaches how big those are. I think as coaches, we may not do enough to make that even a bigger deal. You know, so again, as you create your practice plan, as you implement your principles, as you think out, you know, how do you want to identify your team? I think first and foremost is gotta be the ideology of, man, how tough are we? Are we willing to get down and do the things that matter without the ball? You know, so, and I know that that could be real general. I've got the whole other podcast, but I think we just have to really, really continue to push the envelope of getting young players to understand that there's, you played pretty much 90% of the game without the ball in your hands. And man, I love, I love ball. Ball's so fun to play. There's always something to do. You could be denying, you could be communicating, you could be hitting somebody. And I think as coaches opening up that world to players to see all these things that they could do without the ball and how they could impact their individual game, how they can impact their team. And by doing those things, we can have a lot of fun, you know, not only connecting with each other playing ball together, but probably winning a bunch of games together too. So at the end of the day, man, basketball is a fellowship game. It's a brotherhood game. It's a game about connecting with each other, you know, just never lose the sight of what that is. You know, the fundamental of the end of the, as we started the conversation, man, going to the park, I don't know, nobody at the park. I'm gonna go hoop at the park by the time two hours later, after the lead of the park. I swear, I'll have three or four lifelong friends, man. We're hanging out later. I think it comes back down when you get back to practice and developing players is those little things that connect to your teammates, connect to your locker room. Yes, shooting ball handling assists, alt, be great. But those other pieces to you are so important. Just to build on that, you know, in a game, the best player, two hour game, they're shooting 20 times. So it's like, there's so much more time in two hours. Like, what are you saying in the time outs? You know, like, how is your body language? What we spoke about earlier? So just to your point, you know, I think that's super important establishing that culture and like really having down your identity, every chance you get. 100% and that comes as a coachman. You got to empower your guys to do that. You got to empower your guys. And that's one thing I love about this generation, George, you know what I mean? I'll give them credit, man. They want to know why. Why are we doing this? Why? You know, when I was growing up in the 89ies, Coach said, stand on the line. I'm standing on the line. Don't be stupid. You're doing it because I told you to do it. But now these kids want to know why and giving them that why I think is really, really important. Coach, we got to be sharp because we got to know why ourselves too. I know doubt. Thank you so much, my congratulations. We're in time. We appreciate it. Appreciate it, George. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Transforming Basketball podcast. 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