Ep100: Howard Thurman's View of Jesus Could Heal Us from Today's Christian Nationalism, with Jacob Robinson

[music] Welcome to another Change Making Conversation from Baptist News Global. You're listening to a special podcast series titled "Highest Power, Church and State," featuring writer, poet and musician Rick Pidcock. Now here's Rick. [music] Welcome to episode 100 of "Highest Power, Church and State." It's hard to believe we're already into triple-digit episodes, but here we are. One of the themes I've wanted to emphasize in the show is how our social location affects our perspective. We often talk about perspectives being from right to left, especially when discussing issues of politics and religion. And this is where a lot of the both sides arguments come into play. While some are committed right-wingers and others are committed left-wingers, a middle group of moderates often argue, "This side says that, and that side says this." But in systems of hierarchy, the perspectives are more vertical than horizontal. There are those with the highest power and those below who must submit to the highest power. So we are fundamentally separate from one another and an exile from one another. These hierarchies often manifest themselves in power dynamics based on gender, race, class and sexuality. And typically, this is why straight, white, wealthy men tend to be at the top. So my approach in these first 100 episodes has essentially been to explore how the framework of hierarchy gets sacralized, to expose the powerful who are building it, and to amplify the perspectives of those they're harming. This month in particular is Black History Month. You'll often hear discussions this month about such influential Black leaders as Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, George Washington Carver, Thurgood Marshall, or Malcolm X. But who inspired these people? I'd like to take some time today to focus on one such person. His name was Howard Thurman. In addition to being an author, a minister, an educator, and a civil rights leader, Thurman was also the personal mentor to Martin Luther King Jr. During my time at Northern Seminary, one of my professors, Jacob Robinson, introduced me to Thurman's writing. Robinson received his PhD from Vanderbilt University and Ethics and Society, where he wrote his dissertation on Howard Thurman. He currently serves as the senior program coordinator for the American Academy of Religion. So I sat down with Robinson to discuss why he resonates with Howard Thurman's perspective so much, and why Thurman's perspectives are so relevant for us today. So to start off with, how did you first hear about Howard Thurman and what drew you to invest your time into studying his work? I was first introduced to Howard Thurman's work. I guess when I was 21 years old or 22, I was in inner city Chicago doing inner city ministry, at least. That's what I sort of thought I was doing at the point. In hindsight, the inner city was ministering to me more than I was doing to them. But the program I was working with, one of the things we were doing, we read books, and then we discussed some regarding to our situation. And one of the books we read was, "Jeez and the Disinherited" by Howard Thurman. And for some reason, it instantly sort of resonated with me. And I was like, "Of all the, I think we read like 12 books that year, one each month." And this was the one that stuck out. And it sort of, it gave me a new perspective, sort of on how to understand Christianity, especially in light of the unique sociopolitical situation that is the inner city. That was something I was very unfamiliar with growing up in middle, nowhere in Nebraska. And in some ways, the truth and the veracity that I saw in Howard Thurman's work. In some ways, I felt like, "Wow, this is a perspective of Jesus that I hadn't heard before, and it really made sense." So in some ways, that was the introduction to that. And the more I sort of read on Thurman and the more I read Thurman, the more it made sense. And he really was a sort of wealth of knowledge and insight into what I thought was a very healthy way to be a Christian. And it was also sort of different than anything I'd encountered at that point. Yeah. I noticed like a lot of us, we've heard of these big names like Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks, Malcolm X. But fewer people have heard about Howard Thurman. And so could you just give us like an overview of who Thurman was, how he fits into the civil rights conversation into the United States, and how influential he's been? Yeah, it's actually a sort of a fascinating sort of idea that Howard Thurman is just sort of not as known. Because for about a 20 year period, he was the most prolific after American writer and speaker. There was in a 20 year period there, he did over like 370 different public speaking engagements in universities and colleges and churches all across the United States. And what's interesting though is that over time that sort of side of black Christianity and black religion wasn't getting, wasn't getting any sort of public face. It wasn't till the civil rights movement that that sort of started getting getting more attention. And so Howard Thurman was a little bit, he was essentially a little bit before the civil rights movement. He was born in 1900. And so he, and through various educations, he was the first black person to go to his high school because where he was in Florida, they stopped it like eighth grade. He was the first black person to go get a master's degree up at Rochester in New York. And, and then once he was there, he started expanding ideas. And he was a professor at Howard University. And then he actually was able to go to a trip to India. And he was actually one of first African Americans to go to India and meet Gandhi. So in a lot of ways, that is where Gandhi's non-violent resistance came back to United States is through Howard Thurman. And Howard Thurman was lifelong friends of the Kings. Howard Thurman knew Martin Luther King Jr. when he was born. And so in some ways Howard Thurman was a good friend of Martha King's senior. And so there was this influence with Martin Luther King Jr. through his entire life. And so these were sort of interesting. And as far as like in as far as like theology and academic scale, Howard Thurman was before liberation theology sort of like took, took root with James Cohn. And so in some ways, Howard Thurman was a precursor to all of this. And so, and as far as his role in the civil rights movement, Howard Thurman always sort of believed that his role was in sort of the spiritual side of things. He wasn't that he didn't want to be the big face out in the front of all this stuff. He was he really felt like his gifting was in the sort of like the spiritual development on the quiet side of life. And so with the civil rights movement, in a lot of ways, he was like the pastor to all the front faces. So Martin Luther King Jr. would often like right and connect with a Thurman before he would go out on these marches. And in fact, at one point when King was getting burned out, he was exhausted. It was Howard Thurman who told him, take a break. Like he told him, disappear for three or four months. He's like, you need to rejuvenate your spirit in the same way that like Jesus would would retreat and go into solitude and then come back out. And he's like, and King listened to him. And so in some ways, yeah. So Martin Luther King, so Howard Thurman was the spiritual sort of energy behind the civil rights movement, even though he wasn't out front in the face. Yeah, I know for me like growing up in white fundamentalism, like I never heard any black authors or preachers or anything. And so there was this stage in that part of my life where you kind of wondered where like you started to see the problems and fundamentalism. And then it was like, well, I don't really want to identify as a fundamentalist. So I'll identify as an evangelical. And then years later, it started seeing a lot of those same issues play up in broader evangelicalism. So then it was like, well, I don't want to identify as an evangelical. So identify as a Christian. And now it's like, you see a lot of people today who are like, I don't even know if I can identify as a Christian anymore because of how much, you know, it's Christianity is bent its knee to the empire of religious nationalism. And yet at the same time, a lot of people still resonate with Jesus teaching about loving your neighbors yourself and loving your enemy. So how would Howard Thurman's contrast between Christianity and the religion of Jesus be helpful here? Yeah, this is exactly right. And especially as a black man growing up in the South in the really 20th century, there's some real insight there, right? And in fact, this is one of the most profound questions that when he was actually over in India that he was asked, there was a lawyer there and lawyer from India who asked him a question, he's like, how can you promote Christianity when when the people when Christian people have done so much harm to your people? And that's a real question, right? And essentially what Howard Thurman's response was was he essentially said, what I believe I no longer associate with Christianity. He's like, what I believe is in the religion of Jesus that the teachings of Jesus for me provide great insight and wisdom and how to live in this world. How people with power have corrupted it over time and use it to enslave people, right? And Christianity has sort of been you and the Bible has been used to enslave people, including Thurman's own grandmother. And so he was very aware of how Christianity had been used and abused against minorities and the powerless. But for Thurman, he was like, no, I when I see read the teachings of Jesus, I find great insight into how to survive and thrive in this world. And so in some ways I I also very much resonate with that with the religion of Jesus as opposed to Christianity. And it's because in some ways the way I even have learned to sort of distinguish this is a lot of times when I look at the some of the abuses of the church, whether it's in fundamentalism or evangelicalism or Roman Catholicism or any version, a lot of times where those sort of abuses stung from are actually sometimes what Paul wrote, not what Jesus wrote or Jesus said, that in some ways like this idea of authority and structure and all this, that's Paul. And that's not Jesus like in some ways. So Jesus was really telling more about the internal aspects of of what it means where Paul was more interested in the in the structures. You mentioned the book, Jesus and the disinherited the Howard Thurman wrote and in that book he talks about the hounds of hell which he names as fear deception and hate. How do you think he would recognize fear deception and hate fueling separation in today's Christian nationalist empire? Yeah, he, Howard Thurman calls these the three hounds of hell and the reason why is because he believes these sort of like psychological, you know what I'm called baits, right? These are psychological sort of like things that we can that lure us in. But before we know it, all of a sudden they have like made our spirit rotten. And so fear deception and hate and sometimes they feel justified, right? Like of course I should fear this and fear this person and fear this group. And yes, if they are being immoral, why shouldn't I use deception in order to survive? And why should I not hate them when they do these atrocious things to me? And as I said, as a black man who grew up in the south in the early 20th century, I mean, the amount of like, nastiness that he saw against his like against African Americans was varied. I mean, fate was sort of very justified. But what he essentially said was this, these things corrupt the soul that to live in fear is to let fear become part of you. And then you start reacting to everyone with fear to justify deception means you become a deception yourself and then no longer truth no longer lives in you. To hate someone is to let hate rule in your heart. And that's the opposite of what Jesus has called us to do of love. And so in some ways, Christian nationalism feeds on all of these three hounds of hell. I mean, they are fearful of anything that is different than what they believe, right? And they promote that fear as these people who are different are dangerous. Forget that they're actually like nonviolent. Forget that they're actually just trying to secure their own families and feed their own families. And but this whole Christian nationalist is sort of saying anything that is different than me is should be feared. And the deception that goes into this right the amount of things they have to white the amount of history they have to whitewash the amount of information that they have to disregard or ignore or hide in order to hold their position. Because all this sort of like this information of that goes counter to their narrative, they try to like push away and say it's not valid right. So that's a form of deception. They're not allowing truth to come out. They're actually hiding all the truth and just sort of saying their own sort of their own singular narrow version of what's going on. And hate let's be honest like the Christian nationalists they spout hate all the time in the language that they use the racist language use the sexist language of these. They say that anybody who is different and who counters what they say they respond with venom and with hate. And so so these are very much sort of part of the toolbox that the Christian nationalists are using and and sad because it really isn't Christian at all. It doesn't represent what Jesus taught at all. It's in some ways it's the absolute opposite of what Jesus was teaching of of humility and kindness. I mean, that's like the fruit of the spirit. Yeah, I don't see that in what the Christian nationalists are promoting. And so yeah, I think these are these are hounds of hell because they they they rotten your spirit to the core. I've noticed that especially in like the prayers they use they never pray for the fruit of the spirit. They're always praying for power and might and having a spirit of might. And like one of the themes I often hear them to is like they'll project that under Jesus. And so they talk a lot about how Jesus is king. He's the king of kings. He's the highest king. They're basically like placing Jesus way up there ruling over everyone below, which essentially casts Jesus as mirroring the Roman emperor and then Christianity as the empire. But Thurman would talk about Jesus as being a Jew as a poor Jew and as a member of a minority group. So why do you think Thurman thought it was so important to identify Jesus with the least of these rather than with the greatest of these. Yeah, I mean this seems like a ridiculous question right when you actually sort of look at it because that's what Jesus was like he I mean in some ways. Thurman isn't doing some big theological spin he's like read the text like the the situate look at the historical Jesus who was Jesus in history. Yeah, and as opposed to doing this theological spin of sort of this eschatological geological spin will well Jesus was this will be this at the end. And so we're going to use that to project it upon the past. And and Thurman's like read the book like Jesus was he was poor like carpenters didn't make any money. Like they were not in the powerful and they were an oppressed minority among the Romans. And so so part of it is just doing honest historical work is sort of part of this. And I think the other part of the kingdom part and this is the part that's fascinating to me is that. Yeah, I can fully agree that that Jesus is king. But what does that kingdom look like according to Jesus right the kingdom according to Jesus is flipped upside down on itself compared to what the world says. I mean even when Jesus is on disciples were arguing about who was going to be the greatest right of the greatest decide what did he he berated them like he's like you got this totally wrong. Where the least shall become the greatest and the greatest shall become the least. So when people are trying to make like this power structure of Jesus as king. They don't just have it wrong to have it the opposite of what Jesus taught himself. And so in some ways when this when the Christian knowledge promote this kingdom language they're making it up essentially what they're doing is is they're ignoring Jesus as actually Jesus is on teaching and creating the type of kingdom. The type of kingdom structure it's a kingdom structure that puts them at the top right and that's the opposite of what Jesus said. So in some ways like when Christian national is struck use kingdom language like it's there they're essentially rejecting Jesus and this and Jesus teaching. And so and and the honest answer was this is sort of a counter narrative of sort of what was going to become Christianity to the ancient Julius or the the vision of the kingdom in Israel right because they wanted this big warrior king. The big conquering king that would sort of like reestablish the nation of Israel and Jesus was like no I'm the opposite of that like I have come for the poor and the destitute. And so so in some ways the whole narrative gets flipped upside down when when people try to make Jesus is like powerful king no he's a servant king he is the king that was when he was here he was the servant he was a poor minority and yeah and so in some ways if you're not going to listen to Jesus as teaching of what the kingdom is supposed to look like well don't call Jesus kingdom. Yeah so obviously as the empire and that's basically what this is because they're just kind of recreating a bigger version of the Roman Empire as as it bolsters its power through fear deception and hate it's going to result in separation in exile which creates a variety of different types of enemies. But how are the men talked about how our response should be moving inward toward love could you share what he meant by the love ethic and how moving inward could bring freedom and restoration from the exile caused by empire. Yeah and some ways this is actually how why how were thermos actually a little bit in conflict with even some was in the black community in the 1960s and 70s which was sort of like this black power black separatist movement and and how are thermos like no this is just taking the same power model and just flipping who's on top. But when you had this power model and the separatist model where we're all separate separate never as the how are thermos that separate never creates equal separate never creates a beloved community that the only way we can become a beloved community and go up or down together is is through being integrated in in whole and healthy ways. And so in some ways the way how are thermos saw that was through the love ethic of Jesus and the love that what he called the love ethic of Jesus really was this thing about like truly embodying love of God love of self love of neighbor and love of enemy. And essentially what those four components are is is learning to love others where they are and then hoping for someone better or something better the growth into this that the how or thermos was definitely he wasn't a relativist who said all all everything is fine whatever believe every believe is fine no he then one of his own words he's like i'm not a real it is he's like but i'm also not an absolutist but I do have convictions. And so and this idea of what does it mean to to love God in some ways he sort of had a very strong sort of horizontal component that the way you love God is by loving your neighbor the way you love God is by loving yourself the way you love God is by loving your enemy because in some ways that's what scripture teaches. And so that is the love ethic of Jesus and and the one important components of that is the loving self part and this is where how are thermos was a little bit more spiritual on the side in fact he was sort of called a mystic for some of this stuff because and mystic is sort of a weird term in the reality when she said was called a mystic essentially he was just saying. That you don't have to go through organized religion in order to get to God that each each and every single human being has access to God you don't have to go through religion to get there and so by what what thermo would say is the loving of self is is difficult a lot of times and in fact to love self means to go into this quiet place into the interior place. And until listen to God there and what's interesting is going inward requires way more attention and because one of the things how it sort of said about in regards to prayer and meditation is he said God doesn't scream very loud in fact God rarely talks thought in fact God almost always just whispers. But in order to hear the whispers of God you actually have to calm this the noise inside of you and so this is part of the inward journey is that that to go inward and to embody the fruit of the spirit inward that then enables you to go outward and to engage the community and to engage the world. But to try to go out into the world with the chaos that's in the and the noisiness in your own mind makes you when you do engage the world well less effective and so part of the love ethic of Jesus really is going to the inward self and and learning the true characters and values and virtues that Jesus taught like humility like patience like kindness and really embodying that in the inward moment and then when you go out into the world then you can. Love your neighbor with the love of God then you can love the enemy with the love of God but you can only do that if you embrace the love of God within yourself. So if someone were interested in reading more of thermon what are some resources you'd recommend they start with. Yeah, the first resource I would do is go spend an hour of your day and watch a new documentary that was created on Howard thermon it's called back against the wall and it's actually free access online it's a it is a very well done documentary. You would it's absolutely worth an hour of your time and that's a great introduction to the entire life and sort of purpose of how a thermon and it's a very accessible sort of understanding of what how are thermon did. The next one is his it was his first and his most powerful book Jesus and the disinherited it is it's only 112 pages of like that but man it hits it is a powerful book of a different way of of understanding Jesus and Jesus way of being in the world and how that could guide us. For those of you who are interested in more the spiritual and inward side of things his book the inward journey is also a powerful book about how you both like religion and love are both internal and external that you with understanding love is going in first and then sharing that love out and the same thing is with religion doing their internal religious work and then going outward with it. And then my favorite book or probably of Howard thermon is actually his final monograph called the search for common ground and this is this is sort of the culmination of of how are thermon's entire life work of as the title says the search for common ground like how are thermon really was trying to find how can we understand how all this diverse humanity can find a common space to live together. Because as long as we are separate we are just going to fight that's almost like human nature right we're going to fight and combat with each other we're going to try to put ourselves on top and put other people down below that in some ways the finding of common ground that is how humanity moves forward in in the most holistic way possible. And some of the virtues that that Howard thermon really promoted was was harmony and wholeness those are two of the concepts he pushed and well as as humanity as a people. People wholeness and harmony can only be accomplished if we are doing it together and so so that search for common ground I think is also an exquisite sort of execution of Howard thermons overall thought and thinking. Well I appreciate you introducing me to Howard thermon and I think his ideas are obviously very relevant for today and I appreciate you coming on and sharing some of the same stuff with us. Any time I can talk about Howard thermon I'm glad to I think he's a he's a sage that we're still trying to catch up to and I do think his wisdom is is absolutely appropriate for us now even though he wrote 50 years ago his wisdom is still wise and so yeah so thank you for made to talk about Howard thermon. Thank you so much for listening please like subscribe and rate us on your favorite podcast platform and we'll be back with another episode on Monday. This has been another change making conversation from Baptist News Global. The episode you've just heard is part of a special podcast series titled Highest Power Church in State. Be sure to follow BNG Daily at BaptistNews.com and subscribe to get notifications about future episodes. Baptist News Global is a national nonprofit news service that is independent, free and faithful. BNG is supported by readers and listeners like you learn more at BaptistNews.com. This episode was produced and edited by Mac Balls of TKG Communications LLC Dallas, Texas.