Ep10: Building Data Centers Through Community Alignment

This is uptime now, a Norton Rose Fulbright podcast dedicated to conversations about data centers, from development and construction to cutting-edge technology and operational breakthroughs and the people driving it all. Joining us today is Nia Mathis, General Counsel and Head of Infrastructure and Energy Practice at Even Company, a consulting firm that creates new ways to drive revenue, build reputation and mitigate risks for corporations in the public center. Nia is a senior executive and longtime infrastructure and regulatory leader with 25 years of experience shaping the deployment of next-generation communications networks. Across 17 years of Verizon, she led state and local government affairs, ESG engagement and large-scale infrastructure initiatives, getting public private partnerships and regulatory reform essential to network build-outs. Nia, welcome to show my friend, how are you? Thank you, Samir. I appreciate that warm introduction. I look forward to getting into the conversation. Awesome, me too. I always enjoy our conversations and it's good to be talking with you today about a topic that seems to be on everyone's minds lately and that is the impact of data centers on the community. There are states and counties and communities that have really embraced data centers and others who have not and I'm looking forward to breaking it all down with you. But first, I'd love to start by having you just walk us through who is Nia Mathis and how did you come to be at Even Company? Absolutely, happy to start at the beginning, so after about eight years of law firm life in Washington, D.C. as a regulatory attorney, I went in-house to Verizon. I spent about 17 years at Verizon working on large-scale infrastructure deployment, including network build-outs, regulatory strategy and public private partnerships. And the thing I love about that work is that it sits at the intersection of technology, policy, and communities. So when I started the company, I was in a series of interesting but traditional headquarters legal roles like commercial and technology transactions and marketing and product development, sourcing, supply chain, etc. And then in 2015, I raised my hand to take a role in the field as they say and move across the country where I got the opportunity to help the network engineers build 5G. Most people back then didn't know what it was. We just knew that it was the next wave of wireless technology. So the role I took was initially undefined, but I leaned into what became a fascinating mix of real estate, okay, that's maybe not the most fascinating way to start say a fascinating mix of real estate, but negotiating site access rights, but also working with local governments to update local ordinances, land rezoning, integrating connectivity plans into city development planning, but it also involved policy advocacy at the state level. And finally, the most interesting was direct engagement with the local communities that we were building in. So it was rough and tumble on the front line. You had to be what you needed on any given day to get the job done. So some days I was meeting with mayors and their chiefs of staff to explain the promise of the code name technology. On another day, I might be hosting a Q&A session for a vocal active homeowners association speaking with concerned parents who are rolling in their baby strollers asking about health impacts and aesthetics and property values. The next day, I might be joining a regional meeting of city attorneys to walk through our proposed local code update and our model access rights agreement designed to streamline approval so we can get the network built fast and within budget. I've testified in favor of state laws that would streamline the wireless deployment process and I testified against laws that would have done the opposite. I prepped network engineers for testimony at zoning hearings and sometimes submitted handwritten changes to the public works department forms at the counter that our engineers had to fill out because there was not anything really that was accommodating our particular use. I oversaw litigation both to defend and pursue the company's rights to site facilities. And of course, the role involved tons of stakeholder internal to the company to understand the full plenary of business assets that sat within any given community that we were building in and I learned which levers to pull to get the support needed on the ground. So I've worked in rural environments where people welcome technology and in rural environments that oppose development at all costs been in urban communities where you have to navigate 20 different city departments to get a single site approval and oftentimes we're working on hundreds at a time and it was really exciting work. I found it super exciting and engaging because at the end of the day it boiled down to the study of people, the people that make up a community, there are few people and memories that stand out like the soccer mom who blocked construction access by our construction crew. They couldn't get to the right of way near her home because she set her nine year old up in a lemonade stand right at the curb and then she placed her younger babies on a picnic basket that was sitting right at the front edge of her lawn and she called the local news and they came to witness this reckless company that was putting her children in danger. So you never know what's going to happen when you're dealing with community and emotions, flare and misinformation, flies, but the role itself was this cool fusion of community, government, business and technological advancement and it was simply exhilarating. No one had the playbook. We learned through collaboration and by taking thoughtful action and in the context of my former company we got the network built. We commercialized the service and everyone has the 5G icon on their phones to prove it. So after the network was built, largely built. I went on to other roles at the company, kind of back to the traditional headquarters role type roles, ESG investor relations, responsible business marketing, but I became restless sitting in the ivory tower and I missed the energy that sat at that intersection of new technology and community and business. So I jumped at the opportunity to join Founder Eric Eve at Evenco, which we'll get into I know next, that's where I am now, where I get to help other companies to navigate community and to get business and technology built. Very cool. Can you tell us a little bit about what Evenco does? Gladly, thank you for asking Samir. So Evenco helps companies and public sector leaders to get complex infrastructure projects approved and built. So Eric Eve, he's been out this a long time. He's developed a finesse approach that is both authentic to the community but also tied to driving and delivering business outcomes. So every player in the data center ecosystem has its specialty. Some excel in data center design, some excel in power generation and delivery or power efficiencies, others AI solutions and platforms, but at Evenco, we specialize in community. Evenco excels in partnering with business and bringing forward community to reduce the risk that your project fails due to local opposition. So Evenco has learned you have to be really thoughtful in how you engage community. And there's a huge need right now for thoughtful community engagement when we look at what's happening with the data center industry. Yeah, I saw a stat recently, it was a data center watch where they found that $18 billion of data center projects were blocked and another 46 billion were delayed over the last two years due to opposition from residents and activist groups across 24 states in Virginia and other states too. We're seeing the issues so important that it's actually starting to tip elections based on where politicians land on the issues for the listener that doesn't know what to make all this. They're just hearing about it on the news. Can you talk a bit about the issue and where the concern is coming from? Is it noise, water, power cost, aesthetics, is it something deeper? So yeah, so I'm going to start with the highest level answer and then we can roll into some of those particular. So we've seen this pattern before, a new technology comes out and a company rolls into town touting the great promise of their service or their solution or the technology. And nearly immediately, community members filter the message through jaundiced eyes and the message lands like wet sand because trust is low. So we're seeing now that even as some of the guests that you've had on your podcast similar, even as conscientious companies are working on innovative solutions to reduce the environment or the impact of the data center operations on the environment, well, the community is still telling us that the promise of technology alone does not move them. The promise of AI and its ability to free you up to think higher thoughts and free you up to do higher order work, that does not outweigh their concerns over there. negative physical impacts or their concerns over what this will do to the future of society. And so they organize and they resist and towns and states begin to put up barriers. And when this happens, to be clear, it doesn't always happen because clearly we've had some centers, big centers be built, right? But when community opposition gets loud and powerful, it's not simply a PR problem. It is a relationship and trust problem. So community engagement is part art, part science, but it is a discipline. It's not a last minute bolt on. And we've done it enough to develop lessons on how it goes wrong and what to do to get it right. So what we're seeing in places like Virginia and other places across the country, here's what going wrong looks like. Third party developer enters the city under the cover of darkness, NDA to the Hilt, sometimes for good reasons, but often overboard to the need. The local people hear something about some projects, perhaps at a late night zoning hearing, hearing number one. They spread the word, the questioning what's happening. And now they're packing the galleys at late night zoning hearing number two. The developer says, okay, uh oh, think we have an issue with the local community, but not to worry. What we're going to send out our best technology expert who presents well and who's excited about the promise of the technology, he's believable, he's likable, he's one of them, he'll explain everything. And then the people will be knocking down our doors to welcome the technology. Well, when that doesn't work and hit the panic button, maybe we start hiring additional lobbyists who can work their city relationships with their high school buddies. Now sometimes that does work. You can get an approval and it gets through, you get the vote, but you do take a hit to your brand and the industry takes a hit that makes it harder to get the next project done either in that city or elsewhere. But often that last minute advocacy scramble does not work. So the company advocates are pushed back and they're directed outward into the community because after all, it's always an election year somewhere. That's when the developer knows they have a problem. And when it goes wrong, it's because we've underestimated the will and understanding of the people. We showed no respect. It's like the Rodney Dangerfield moment and the community doesn't like it. And that fact pattern is the opposite of thoughtful engagement. It's hasty, it's secretive, it's last minute, and it's dismissive of the cause for an eye roll locals. So I said a lot there, Samir, about when things go wrong and that's, you know, what we're seeing in a lot of the opposition, you talked about Virginia, but it's all over the country. So I'll take a break and pause for any reflection or reaction you have on that. But then I'd love to tell you how we've learned how to get community engagement right. Yeah, I know this is all very interesting to me. It's a part of the equation that I don't spend like any time thinking about because as you know, I'm more on the transactional piece of all this. So yeah, so curious to hear how how how are you guys solving for this? This is how we solve for this. Excited to talk about it because it's the win, win, win. All right. So this is how you solved the trust and relationship problem. It's through thoughtful engagement. That's early and intentional. Sound simple. But I want to walk through what that means pretty explicitly. So there's an understanding to the point you just made that there are layers to this thing and thoughtful community engagement is indeed a discipline. So the first principle is to engage early, ideally at the site selection stage. So alongside other key factors like usable land, access to power, water, the financial incentives, you should understand in parallel the people profile. And so even code dives into the analysis, we do the math. We slice the data by zip code by neighborhood. We look at the local history, the history of litigation has has it been litigious between the the city and major businesses within the city. Have the people sued the city? Have there been failed projects where developers have walked away? Are there other signs of broken promises and low trust? And also you look to see have there been successful projects? And what resonated locally and what worked to get the people on board? You have to assess the relationship between the mayor, the city council, said a week mayor, strong city council vice versa, the city staff, and then you have to assess all of their collective relationship with the community. Are they transparent? Are they engaged? Are they distant and secretive? I've had mayor say to me, hey company, I see the laws on your side and I'd like to help you to get business done in my city, but my constituents are rabid. You're just going to have to sue the city so I can go back to them with the paper that says, hey look, we don't have a choice, we've got to work with these guys. So what's the local environment? Is it so litigious that you have to take those sort of corridors to get work done? But it's all in the data, you crunch the data and it's all there if you know what to look for. So once you have a picture of what's happening on the local at the ground level, who the people are, what the history of the community is, what the what the pain points have been, then you can move forward in an informed way and you let that guide your strategy. So then the next piece after the analysis, the quantitative and qualitative analysis is the ground game and that's where you go out and you get input. You have to ask the right questions of the right people at the right time, informed by that analysis, informed by the data. So it's wonderful. It is music to our ears that more people are talking about going out into the community and listening. And that is a very huge and important first step, but it's just the first step. So when we say we're listening, that is great, but who are we listening to? And what are we listening for? We don't want to just focus on the vocal minority, but we want to identify those people in the silent majority who could actually be turned into supporters if we engage them intelligently. I'm curious about that piece. I'm curious about the concerns that you're hearing, but also are they the same across communities or are they different in one part of the country, than another part of the country? What are you guys hearing? Yeah, so this is why you analyze before you listen. It's back to basics for those of us old enough to remember Mr. Rogers, you know, who are the people in your neighborhood, the people that you meet each day. And once you know that, then you design how you engage and to that question, not all communities are created equally. Some communities are known for being jealous guardians of all that happens on the land. And I've seen a city council go so far against tourism and development in their in their town that they were crafting ways to keep the summer tourists away. They were like, maybe if we stop spraying for mosquitoes, that'll do it. True story. Other communities are live and let live, as long as you don't interrupt their daily routines, they don't feel any negative impacts. They're like, you do you as long as you don't bother me over here. It's fine. So all of that informs the ground game, right? You have to create the right environments for listening, again, understanding that not all of communities are created, created equally. But you ask the right questions and you create the right environment in a way that builds the trust by the people in the process and that even coer very thoughtful about how we go about the listening, crafting the sessions, inviting, curating, cultivating relationships and doing it the whole time with the idea in mind that each touch of each person in the community is all about building trust. And then when you've listened, listening is great. But only if you can show the community that you did something with what the people told you. You've listened, so then what? That's where the strategic response planning begins, right? Community engagement doesn't dictate business strategy, but it should help shape certain decisions. So the feedback you get from community may impact design or how you do construction. It may impact, it should impact the commitments you make for ongoing operations and other community benefits. And it should impact how you follow through. So again, coming back to the fact that community engagement is a discipline. Here's where you look as a company or as an industry. You look at the assets across your business or across the industry in that local community. And you think about the levers that you can pull to address the community gap to build trust and to build relationships. And so maybe you consider a technology pilot at the local hospital, which which happens to be the largest employer. Maybe it's in-- internships for high schoolers in your front office. Maybe it's employee volunteerism with a large local civic influencer and nonprofit. Perhaps it's an information share with the largest active, most vocal homeowner's association. But you look across your company assets and you leverage whether it's Salesforce, engineers, your lobbyists, your corporate social responsibility teams, your HR teams, and you also look outside of your company to see across the industry how you can create partnerships that might help you to create a triple win. And then you have to communicate. So now you've analyzed, you've gotten a ground game, you're crafting a strategy, you're looking at all the areas that can where the company can bring forth positive impact. You have to communicate before doing the thing, doing the thing, and after you've done the thing. And you're communicating, yes, there's an overarching message, but often they're targeted messages to segments of the community. And you have to consider the messenger when you're communicating, who are you sending? How are you delivering? Is it in person, is it digital? Is it a door hanger? Maybe during construction, if you have questions, let us know, you know, if we're not doing our part to keep noise levels down, here's the person you call. It's not one size fits all, because not every person or neighborhood is similarly situated, a lot of neighborhoods, maybe not whole cities, but a lot of neighborhoods have had bad experiences, and that's what they're carrying with them when the next project comes to town. And so understanding that should definitely help forward to the strategy forward. And here's where you do put on the hat for marketing and for PR. So when I said earlier, it's not a PR, community engagement is not about having a PR solution. PR in marketing is an aspect, but it's a much larger effort of building relationships and trust, and then you have to monitor and give feedback. You monitor what you said you were going to do, is it happening the way you said it was going to happen? If you get something wrong, you fix it, and you report back to the local elected, to the community where you got it wrong, and you say we're here and we're going to stand with you, and we're present, we're concerned, and we'll get it right. And so you don't have to have all the answers to have thoughtful community engagement, but one common bottom line foundational element is respect. You respect the community by acknowledging their presence or its presence. You're saying to the community, we are here, but we're coming into your home, and you don't go into someone's home without greeting them, and it's often the same with community. You have to position yourself as a longstanding team player and partner that has an eye toward a sustainable, operating model that will be here, that understands commitment and respects the community. So that's the way to do thoughtful community engagement to get past some of the public outcry that we've seen again, Virginia, other places, that leads to the unwanted government regulation that none of us are excited about. - Well, that's almost a perfect segue. I was going to ask you next about some of the regulations that we are sitting out there, but before that, everything that you said or in how makes so much sense, when you say it, it seems super simple, but it's not, and it's interesting because it's not a one-size-fits-all, it is very individual and it completely makes sense that there are communities that would have concerns based on what's happened in the past for them. That was might be very different things from what's happened somewhere else. It seems like the common theme is respect. That's the one commonality is you must respect the community, you have to care about them and be committed to the outcome for them overall at the end of the day. I want to ask you about regulations since you mentioned it. On March 4th, the White House announced the right pair of protection pledge establishing a framework to support AI development while attempting to safeguard energy consumers. Tech leaders immediately committed to build or buy the electric capacity and great upgrades required to meet their data center needs to make sure that customers aren't being unfairly subsidizing or cross-ubsidizing things for the data center, sector, developers. Do you think this type of regulation is needed and is it helpful? OK, so wearing my hat as a fully recovered regulatory lawyer, I can say with a heavy sigh and I will have a moment to sigh that it's a given that by the time any landmark technology legislation or set of comprehensive regulations becomes effective by the time the quote-unquote ink tries to ensued an ink anymore. Those regulations and those laws are at least a dozen years out of date, if not more. And that creates all sorts of unintended consequences, including hampering innovation. So seeing that regulatory process where OK, we got the law in place and as soon as it's in place, you set about trying to undo or fix some of the things that do not make sense. That's kind of part of every law. And the more complex the technology is, the more things there are to fix, and the more the unintended consequences of Blooming Blossom, OK. That's my spiel about regulation and technology. It's just out of date, nearly immediately. But the policy makers, they do have their jobs to do as imperfect as it is. And the pledge is stating that you mention it's stating the obvious, right? We have to power the future while at the same time protecting the people's wallets and pocketbooks. And that's a real, I believe, that the impetus and the direction behind that pledge is real. And like I mentioned, it's always election year somewhere. And so it's real and it's also practical for lots of reasons. But as society shifts in its thinking about infrastructure growth, that's tied to AI and data centers and the huge power needs, certainly BYOP. Bring your own power makes a lot of sense. And it's what regulators and communities want. And so large users, my view is should fund or procure the capacity they require. But how that gets done, it's one thing to pledge that this is the direction we're going to go in and use the levers of the federal government and work with business to get it done. But how it gets done, well, that's the messiness we're seeing now. My view is the more self-regulation through responsible business action, the better, the less government regulation, the better. And if at the end of this process, the pledge and moving in the same direction and companies taking thoughtful, responsible business decisions, at the end of that, we have clearer pricing structures and more transparent cost allocations. I'll say fair to the people, cost allocations, then it's a good thing. And it seems like, in addition to evolving community expectations, data centers are running also into permitting challenges and other regulatory issues. Where do you see the biggest regulatory or local engagement bottlenecks emerging? Yeah, so this is another taking a step back. The bottlenecks are increasingly the interaction between three systems that move at completely different speeds and just operating people within those spheres operate in just in different universes. So you get the grid and the power and everything that needs to-- that's a whole universe within itself. Then you have the permits to local zoning, state level, NEPA environment. You got the permitting process. And then you have community expectations. And those three need to come together in a line in the right way for the project to be built on time, on budget. It's just that's the challenge is that they don't align and on the community expectation side. Oftentimes, that's an afterthought. When there's an "Uh-oh," I think we have a problem. So we know on the grid side, interconnection cues are backed up by years. We know permitting processes are also becoming more complex, sometimes locally. Even as we see some relief federally. And so that's even within the permitting and depending on where you're looking, local, state, or federal, you may have some speed and you may have some pullback. And at the same time, communities are expecting earlier engagement and more transparency. And so sometimes there's hesitation and discomfort on the part of business to engage because they'll say, well, we don't know what to say. We don't have it sewed up in a box. It's not tied neatly with a bow to where our marketing team can put their stamp of approval and we can crank out our usual way of doing marketing or PR campaigns. So sometimes business leaders are hesitant. But you don't have to have all of the answers to engage a community thoughtfully. Sometimes just asking the right questions and then being committed to doing the follow-up, to being present, long, long, long, long, long, long. term. It's a process, again, it's a discipline where you don't necessarily, if you're step three, you don't necessarily know exactly how step seven is going to look, you know that you're going to get there. And that within itself, being able to tell the community, these are things that we know and these are the things that we're still in the process of figuring out. But we can commit to you that when we have those things figured out, we will be back to talk to you. But thank you for the input early on because we know that that's the approach that builds trust, that builds the relationship that brings people along with us. There's a lot of switching happening in the industry right now where I'm seeing, I mean, I think in the last month alone, I've seen several projects like this and announce, I'm sure there are others that we don't hear about where there's a data center developer, the development project, then they decide to kill the project, but somebody else comes in, steps into their shoes and is, you know, going to continue the project moving forward. That's got to be really difficult situation for a new developer coming in who hasn't been able to lay the groundwork in the foundation. Like you've talked about, they're kind of inheriting whatever issue is the prior developer might have been dealing with or might have been there in the community. Can you talk a little bit about that? Are you guys seeing that? Working with clients who are in that situation and when you see something like that, like what is the approach that you guys have? Yeah, so I think, you know, first we, again, we're, we look at this in a way that's tied to driving business outcomes and deliverables. So if we look at what hyperscalers are doing right now and how they're managing risk, at the scale that they're operating, timing, power, certainty, the execution risk, all directly affect the execution of that project and the economics of that project. So even a six to 12-month delay might have a significant implication given the demand for AI capacity. So when a company walks away, it often represents or reflects some shift in those variables rather than a problem with the site itself. There's a reason that they initially wanted to build there. So the fact that another company steps in quickly shows that the demand is still very strong. And so you pick up where, where the developer that walked away left off and you, from the community angle, the community is going to be aware. Now, did they chase that developer away? That's one question that may, that may be very different than a community that's hungry to have something occupy this space because maybe there've been string of broken promises and promise development and a community that wants to have the space occupied. I won't even say jobs. That's a, you know, this whole different, but that wants to have the space occupied and maybe what else the promise may, may bring an engender in terms of other development that may come if, they can get the anchor development in there. And so you really have to, again, it starts from the analysis, understanding that particular community, what happened when that developer walked away and you pick up with the community from that point. If it is a situation where the developer was chased away, why does it go back? Does it come down to lack of communication, lack of respect? I'm showing up in a dominant way in your home and I am completely ignoring you. And at the last minute, if it seems like I have to deal with you, then I will. Is that what happened? Or are there real concerns that the company did not address or addressed too late? Or is it, sorry, economics didn't work out here. It didn't move fast enough. So we are looking at a site across the country and really nothing personal to that community, lovely people, you know, just the deal didn't work. Now the community will feel very differently about the next developer coming in. It may be, it won't be such a hard row. Yeah, very interesting. Can you talk a little bit about what a data center project looks like that actually gets community buy-in today? Is there a model that others should be setting is there something that you see more often or across the board when you're looking at projects that do have that buy-in? Yeah. So from the community engagement perspective, the community aspect, the projects that tend to succeed are those where the developers were the players engage community earlier in the process before key decisions are finalized, which allows for an ingesting of the feedback and some real adjustments rather than just talking points. You know, we listened and then we just go on our usual merry way reflecting none of what was said. So, you know, of course there are also very, you know, specific concerns about power usage and cost implications in the physical footprint. And the community is also really focused on benefits and wanting to understand and wanting to understand how realistic these benefits are. So, data centers are capital intensive, but not labor intensive, as we know. So, the value proposition to the community has to be framed around what's realistic for them, the tax base. Okay, so what will that allow? What infrastructure improvement and investment will they experience in the community? What's the long-term economic contribution? And so, that has to be thought about in the context of the community you're speaking with and communicated clearly and credibly, again, consider the messenger, consider the timing of the message, how it's delivered, but having that communication is what reduces uncertainty on behalf of the community and it makes it easier for people to evaluate the trade-offs. Very interesting. You've given me a lot to think about and things to talk to my clients about now, including, by the way, what goes into our construction contracts, which was not something I was previously thinking about. We weren't asking the question of, if the community relations perspective is there anything that needs to go into this agreement, but I think that's a really important piece and certainly something we'll be talking about. If you're advising a developer on site selection right now, what's the single biggest non-technical factor that they should be considering? I would say the most important non-technical factor is alignment with the local political, economic, and community context alignment within those spheres. And so, that includes whether local leadership supports the project, whether it aligns with the region's infrastructure priorities, and whether the trade-offs are perceived as fair by residents. So, those factors tend to determine whether a project moves efficiently or becomes prolonged and contested. So, technical challenges can usually be solved over time. Technology advances, you have really creative, smart, brilliant people working to solve technical challenges. But misalignment at the local level, where you break trust, again, it comes back down to trust and respect. Once trust is broken, it's really hard to regain. It's not impossible. But that misalignment at the local level with local leadership with the community is much harder to fix once positions have been established. Well, I've really enjoyed having on the show and having this conversation and learning more about your approach and your company's approach to community relations with the naming movement. People often think about reasons why they don't want data centers in a local area. As, you know, I'm a very optimistic person and I think you are too. And before let you go, I'd love to hear about some wins that you've witnessed for communities in your role at Evenco. So, when projects are done well, then the benefits are real, but often indirect, right? And so, again, we talked about the expanded tax base that supports local services, infrastructure upgrades tied to power and connectivity, workforce development perhaps. And so, that's what we see when things are done well. It's not, you know, again, the immediate jobs impact. It's the indirect benefits. And I think it's so important that at the outset, business speaks clearly to community about what the expectation should be. And so, ultimately, that's what the difference between projects that move forward and do well in those that stall. It's whether there's enough trust for the project to move ahead. And the trust comes from clear communication, establishing clear expectations, following through on those expectations. And so, the projects that are done well, that's how they end. And actually, there's a moment, I won't even say they end, because once the project is built, part of thoughtful community engagement is the ongoing monitoring. We said we would do this for the long term. Are we still keeping that commitment? Are the noise level still within what we promised? Are the shrubs that are covering the outside? Are they dying? Are they full? Are we keeping that up? You know, if there are design elements and we get snow and rain and, you know, the years of wear and tear, are we keeping up, you know, monitoring longer term, you know, what what we said we would do. So there's not really an end where it's like, okay, projects built, that was lovely. It's great. It has to be the ongoing commitment to to do what the company ultimately said, it would do. - Very cool. - And when those projects go well, you know, at the end of the day, reason I love this work is because it's about doing right by people while at the same time helping business and technology to advance, right? We are not going backward. AI is transformative and transformational and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. But we can be thoughtful and think about how to craft the triple win as we move forward as a society. Samir, we've talked about kids and family, you know, I'm a mom of five and I want my children to thrive in this promised technological future where they're freed up to, I don't know, again, thank lots of higher thoughts. But I'd also like for them to be respected to have autonomy for their careers and decisions that they will make for their lives. And I'd like for them to breathe, clean air, and drink clean water. And I don't think that Americans are asking too much when that's what we want to leave for the next generation. And that's the legacy that we hope to secure. So I don't know, I think you agree with me based on the conversations we've had. - I do absolutely do. Yeah, share the vision, share the goals for this industry in the country with you and for our kids, of course. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate you as always. And I look forward to our next discussion. - Thank you, Samir, I do too. - Thank you for listening to UpTime now. If this episode sparked an idea, pass it along to someone in New Network, and leave a comment. I'd love to hear your thoughts, ideas, and recommendations for guests. Till next time, thank you and remember to subscribe. (upbeat music)