EP081 - Stablecoins - In conversation with CA Aishwary Gupta, Global Head of Payments - Polygon Labs

[Music] Welcome to the India Fintech Diaries, the only podcast focused exclusively on the Indian Fintech market. I'm Al Roy. And I'm Hemal. In each episode we dive into the latest trends, ideas, innovations, business models and personalities that are shaping India's Fintech landscape. We also invite amazing guests who are innovators and industry players that are driving the change that is helping make financial services more modern, innovative and inclusive in India. Come join us as we explore the Chaining Landscape of Fintech in India. [Music] Welcome back to India Fintech Diaries, your one-stop destination for stories from the cutting edge of India's thriving Fintech ecosystem. I'm Hemal. And today we have a fascinating episode lined up with me is my co-host, Al Roy. Hemal, the very recently and made 20 seconds, in fact literally this week, the Hong Kong monetary authority passes table-cointed and bill to regulate stablecoins. And similarly, the media has been reporting that the US Senate is advanced to genius act, which is a landmark bill aimed at regulating stablecoins. And just last month and early this month, both MasterCarden Visa made announcements of various partnerships and projects, aimed at integrating stablecoins in their payment rails globally. With all this attention on stablecoins in crypto, we thought it's time to take a look at what all of this means for the future of payments in India. And to do this, we welcome Ayushwari Gupta, Global Head of Payments at Polygon Labs. Welcome to the show Ayushwari. Thank you so much for hosting me here. Actually, so before we start delving into this very, very interesting topic, how about we start with you telling a little about yourself and how you got introduced to the world of crypto and Polygon? Yeah, I think I completed my CA back in 2018, then like spent good amount of time with American Express. I think American Express shaped a lot of that for me to get into crypto. Because working at American Express from the payments perspective, I was very closely looking at what are the nuances of why payment is still like a 40-year-old software, which is there. And we were like, I think American Express was one of the early investors in our crypto company. And there were a couple of actually experiments that we were running at that time now. Most of them are case studies. But I think that actually kind of created. So we were trying to go out and do some high-end merchant cards. We were essentially, if you are a US or UK merchant, you can move money instantly. Also trying another example where we were trying to go out and send pension to Mexico automated through crypto. So I mean, all those things fascinated me a lot. I took kind of going into something which was evolving, but like was very fascinating. I started there at Amix with a couple of those experiments that joined in exchange, exactly when India, like I remember two days, I was in job and India was like, there is going to be a ban on crypto. Yeah, I remember the time it was completely crazy. Yes. And from that perspective, I think joined there, then joined the crypto bank in Switzerland, try to understand more, manage like a hundred million dollar fund with them. And then like from there, a joint polygon, around four years back, being here at Polygon, working on different roles, started with D5. So I used to teach D5 as well. But like, yeah, overall from that perspective, in these four years, evolved into multiple roles. And now kind of manage a big portfolio from for Polygon across the world, which includes payments, real-world assets, tokenizations, need a team of like nine people now, which is almost 70% of the BD team at Polygon now. So yeah, that is where I'm now. That's great to know, Ashwari. Let's start with the basics to layer foundation for the rest of our discussion today, right? Now, if you look at the usual stablecoins, this is increased in recent years with the average supply of stablecoins, increasing, roughly 28% year on year. And total transfer volume also is immense. In fact, it hit 27.6 trillion dollars last year. So passing a combined volume, so visa and mastercard transactions in 2024. But what exactly are stablecoins and in a related question, what are central bank digital currencies? And how are these two different? Yeah, last week we also passed a big milestone on payments, which was 1% of the total US dollars is actually now tokenized in the form of stablecoins. And from the perspective of like, what are stablecoins, different types of different ways in which you can build a stablecoin, but very basically, but stablecoin is nothing but a digital representation of your currency. It could be the major one or you'll say like almost 98% of the total supply, which is of the stablecoins as a digital representation is US dollar. But slowly and steadily, I think other currencies are making way in this year itself. I think we have around 17, 18 currencies, which have come up as non-USD. I think one of the biggest reasons why the book coins is kind of also picking up as a digital representation is because it's much cleaner and faster to kind of move money. Using stablecoins as compared to your conventional ways. Funny story like even last week, one of my friends actually moved to Dubai and he was paying like a annual rent from his account and used Swift. Swift wrote the wrong name and his money is stuck and he is homeless since last day. Just because the money has still not reached the landlord's bank account. I think those kinds of instances keep on happening and stablecoins just represent a better way to move money, kind of an innovation from that perspective, not on the money side but the way it runs that money. And on the CVDC side, I think the only difference between a stablecoin versus a CVDC is the CVDC is directly issued by the government as a digital representation of the country. And stablecoins are not actually issued by the government. Both of them have their own ways of how they can help and benefit based on how the regulatory environment is in various countries. Like there will be some countries who will always want to depend on CVDCs. There will be countries who will be like we don't care about CVDCs and will be fully open. Like US, Australia said that they do not want to kind of have a CVDC and multiple states now are coming in and just outright banning that CVDC would ever be coming to US. Similarly, there are countries like India where the way to go out is somewhere around CVDC or like a mix between a CVDC or a stablecoin. I can talk more about it from a regulatory perspective as well on why this makes sense or how they all have their own ways to begin. But that is basically as a layman what stablecoins and CVDCs are. And I hope your friend quickly solves that problem. The way is not, the way whether is not a weather where you can stay homeless. So I have a slightly controversial question for you as you worry. UPI has clearly transformed India's payment ecosystem. But as someone operating at the frontier of decentralized in front, where do you see the current limitation of UPI? Especially as we look towards a more autonomous programmable payment system. And if you're imagining the successor of UPI, what should India's next-gen payment really look like to support a real-time global and intelligent commerce? I'll go to a couple of examples here, like making a little bit more interesting. So from a perspective of global basis on a global basis, what happens is almost $7 trillion move on a daily basis. Now this includes your cross-border, this includes transactions happening within the country itself. And almost out of that total money. So there's three categories of these money. Around 22% of this money is uninsured, which means that there is no guarantee that the money that I'm paying you, I'll get it back. Okay. In multiple instances like in 2008, where a bank made a payment to a counterparty bank and the counterparty bank either went bankrupt or they did not have the cash so they never paid back. And there is no recourse for it. Almost 32% of the money is PVP, which means that it happens in the same lead. You're transferring US dollars to someone, the counter, and other currency will come back. There are only 18 currencies which are like insured in this manner. Then there is another 30-32% which there are like contracts which insures that money will reach you. So almost like 2.2, 2.3 trillion dollars on a daily basis is moving without insurances. So that's one factor considered. The second factor is the way you look at UPI. UPI has 100% democratized or brought the existing economy, which was already there in a way largely in India. So it technically did not create like a massive new economy. I mean, if you look at it today, the number of UPI transactions, though the number of transactions are massive. And probably there is no system in the world which is operating at the scale. But the average amount of transactions still is that of like you buying a cigarette that you buying like a chai at a tupri. So on an average like 150 repeat transactions. So that is basically what UPI has done. UPI has digitized the existing economy, which was there. So that is the second fact and the third thing is like when you're looking at UPI, UPI is a message is message based system, which means that today the way UPI works is you feel that UPI is instant when I'm sending you money. It feels like the money instantly got sent, but that actually does not happen at the back end. Your money actually gets settled every two hours and that runs 24 by seven. So every two hours there is a recon that happens in PCI has a full team who ensures that the reconciliation is happening. Everyone is getting the money and they run this recon every two hours and even on a weekend, that's running. So that's how your money gets settled at the back end. First, the messages move, whatever is the net amount from the messages, there is a settlement that is run and through that settlement, the money actually moves to the bank accounts. So that is one thing. So this is something where it is a messaging network and now this is something these are some of the things from a web to perspective. And when you look at blockchain based payments, the best part about blockchain payments is it's 100% PVP, which is payment versus payment or payment versus what that simply means is like when I'm making a payment to you, there's a hundred percent guarantee that either the transaction would not happen or if the transaction is happening, it would complete on both the legs. So for example, let's say a protocol like UNISWAP, when you go to UNISWAP and you want to kind of let's say there are two currencies, Euro and USD. The moment your USD leaves your wallet, there's an instant on the other side the Euro will leave and it will be settled in the same leg. So there is no need for a third party to create that guarantee. There is no need for a third party to create reconciliations. So that is one fact and the second thing is from the perspective of how UPI is built, UPI again like is a messaging layer and this is actually like a way a layer where the money is moving alongside. So the way I look at it from an Indian perspective is so UPI has its own role and UPI's role is phenomenal with the way I see a new economy opening. So I'll give you another example here. Let's say in India, when you look at long-term loans, that's the capital. So when you look at India, when you look at the government and the government says we should go out and become like a $5 trillion economy. There are two ways to do it. One, either you reuse the assets that are sitting in the economy and not cause a havoc with inflation or you can simply print money to kind of go out and create more demand so that the economy grows to a 5 trillion economy. The first thing is something that you cannot do without a blockchain because blockchain establishes itself like as a trust vector. So imagine like in the banks you have crores and crores, I don't know exact figure but there is, there probably will be thousands of crores of money which is stuck in a long-term loan. And if you look at the 2008 CDS, we ask for that, I happen in US. The product itself was not a bad product. The product became bad because the elements operating that product did not remain true to themselves. So the CDS was a very beautiful product which was brought into the market. The quality of the loans which were coming in, they depreciated with high quality assets, got depreciated, all low quality assets started coming in and they all fell off like a ripple effect. But if you can kind of go out and imagine a word and like if you look at RBI, RBI has been trying to create secondary markets for debentures, bonds, loans and all these things. But it is still like very costly to go out and do that and to create a secondary demand. Using blockchain infrastructure, you can actually go out and tokenize this, the same long-term loans, create a serious structure and then using that serious structure you can raise more money bringing capital back to the bank which it can go out and give it back into the economy. Now the difference between a CDS of 2008 versus a blockchain-enabled CDS is something that here what you can do is through a blockchain you can always be updated that whether the EMI is getting paid of the underneath CDS real time and because of that there will always be a fluctuation in the price because let's say there's a thousand to be CDS which is getting generated and there are 10 loans and someone does not pay a loan of 100 to be there. But automatically you'll get a loan that someone has not paid one of the EMI's of the CDS that you are not holding. And at that point you as whatever is your risk appetite you can go out and resell it at a discount which creates those secondary markets as well. So this is something that UPI cannot unlock. And that's why there are tons of those examples like gold tokenization is so much other like tokenization like real estate is another thing which is sitting idle in India and is unproductive. And the way to unlock it on the blockchain and create a payment mechanism which can unlock it is something that is missing and UPI cannot be that because UPI does not settle the transactions in payment versus delivery. And that is why like I think either India should kind of have its own stable coin it should allow people to have stable coins. It could go out and make CVDC play that role in some ways if it is built in that sense. But think this is not a challenge towards UPI but this would become this would become like a compliment to UPI to create this new financial infrastructure which is much more efficient does not require as many intermediaries. And it ensures that the money movement happens in a way where there is minimum friction and maximum prosperity. I should be double clicking on that a little right what Indian use cases do you think are most ripe or ready for stable coin adoption today. Three of them which like are on top of my list one is cross water payments. If you look at India India does along with inward outward remittances and trade volume it does around $1.8 trillion annually. And we spend on an average so based on like number of transaction less than 200 more than 200 more than 500 the average cost of transaction in India including all the ways is around 4.8%. That's 84 billion dollars that in their spending to move 1.8 trillion dollars and that is something which is massively high for someone who will and since like most of these transactions happen in a low ticket volume through banks the cost of moving money is like more than 10% sometimes. This is like one use case which even if enabled in a way can can go out and help reducing this cost massively. So I think that is the first use case which is that which is like on top of my mind. The second is like I think from a perspective of tokenization and payments which is tokenization of assets primarily like real estate long term loans. I think that is the second thing and the third thing is an open banking framework. So imagine today like when you go to a bank let's say you have a banking relationship with hypothetically HDFC you have like a fixed deposit in HDFC which is giving you a 6% and the fixed deposit is 10 lakh rupees today. Now if you want to go out and take a loan against it the one thing that you will do is you cannot go out and use this fixed deposit as a collateral in different banks because your FD is sitting in HDFC and that means as a consumer I am not getting the best out of it. Why because there I'm 100% sure there is a bank out there which would want to beat like let's say over draft limit that I want to borrow against this FD at whatever rate that HDFC wants to give me and that's something which is very close and it's not an open banking so for a customer it is very difficult. Now imagine when you talk about agentic frameworks you can create a mechanism where you just can tokenize this fixed deposit put it on a blockchain and say this is a fixed deposit that I have in HDFC. And I want to loan against it and there are 20 agents of banks AI agents of banks going out looking at this position and trying to bid and say that we are okay to give you an over draft limit of this amount at this rate. Now that is something where the consumer wins right now the consumer doesn't read that is like the third thing which is going to be a massive thing if we can kind of go out and unlock this with the entire blockchain AI framework and say we can. And stable price actually you earlier touched upon and I'll also spoke about some of the regulatory and commercial adoption that stablecoins have received outside of India in your opinion what kind of regulatory clarity is needed in India to make I know back stablecoins viable and accepted accepted. I think the biggest challenge is from perspective of India Indian used to so a little bit more deep in depth analysis of why. And a stable coin we built in India make when you look at US dollars US dollar is freely tradable but when you look at I not because of the LRS rules that are there which is which prohibits every person with one like each bank card to move up to 250,000 dollars a year with some exceptions. It is very difficult to kind of go out and make a freely tradable stable coin in India because you will not be able to control a free tradable stable coin in India with the rules that essentially are there in RBI and the prevention of money laundering and hence what you do is like you need to either go out and create a you can say semi open like which is like you still control who is moving how much money in a digital format. Can that be done yes that can be done but because the licenses like there are multiple licenses which are the issues and none of them mentioned how to regulate it it is very difficult to kind of go out and find out like whether you are in the gray area or this is something that the central bank would not want. So that is a big challenge which is there and that is why one of the things or one of the ways in which I see it probably like personal opinion is if I can go out and get a wrapped version of the CBD see enabling semi kind of transfer ability and that would kind of enable it it just needs a mechanism so coming back to your question like what needs to be changed I think the first thing is how the banking would support it because today when you go to a bank and say we want to launch a stable coin they say we are not going to give you. So it's very difficult to go out and do that you cannot bring a foreign bank into India to do that because the moment you bring a foreign bank or like you want to own a foreign bank to go out and do that the rules kicking of the banking regulation at and you cannot do that and the third thing is there is no clarity on how you can move that money because RBI has the sole description to kind of go out and use money or you can say print money it is very difficult to do that. It is very difficult for anyone to kind of go out and tokenize it without their permission so I think that is something where we need to kind of go out and have amendments in three laws majorly at least the RBI act the second one is on the side of composability of CBD see or like create enabling us to create another stable coin with the banking rails so something in the banking at and the third from a perspective of on the side of like how they will treat it because today if they treat it as a money it is very good but the moment they treat it as a commodity there will be GST implications so the benefit cost benefit that you get into it will all be gone because if someone says like if you're paying me in stable coins you need to pay 18% GST nobody will use it. 15 years a little bit I should another hot emerging trend and you touched on this little bit as well is agentic commerce and we're seeing very early examples of AI agents booking travel reordering inventory or scheduling service renewal on the consumer side of things. Now what kind of payment infrastructure is needed to support the shift in India. I think it's the same thing so what you're talking about is something like an example that I was doing last week itself right there's a company called Crossman which is I think a US based company and they've built all these agents where you can kind of go out and create automated subscriptions or you can go out and buy automatically on chain for this essentially you cannot leverage the existing banking rates because for this like you need a lot of that tech to be built where the trust is getting created when the money is going to be created. When the money is moving and how the money is moving so I think what these things to actually become successful. There needs to be a way where the money can move on the blockchain because now you're entering into areas where you do not have control when you do not have control there needs to be a way in which you can always ensure that what went wrong if something went wrong and because there are multiple parties involved having a system which is currently there in the banking system. It would kind of require a massive amount of uplift to create that kind of like you can say mechanisms to go out and create these agent framework so we are testing this outside India a lot like there are bots who were like agents who would enable you to go out and manage your portfolio like we're working on a product with a very big bank in US where what they want to go out and do is they want to create a framework of investment. You get yourself on a 30th instable coins and you say let's say I want to allocate 30% of my salary and investments you go out and create the categories in which you want to invest and just like robot advising I think robot advising did not take off earlier basically because of the way the investing happened everything was not open source the money was not moving clearly but now what you can do is through this agent it can go out and if the assets exist on the blockchain itself which to a fair amount of fair amount of money. Fair amount now exist you can actually just tell your agent as a robot advisor this is where I want to invest this is where my portfolio should be you should rebalance if this these ratios change I think those things are coming in but the biggest challenge again is these things require much more open rules and regulations as compared to what they are in India right now. I think a related question is that typically if you see blockchain transactions right there are lots slower than what we use to as far as both agentic commerce and actual commerce is concerned. So how what role do you see scaling solutions especially those like polygons ZKVM playing in this new wave of commerce. I think back in like 2017 2018 when we had like Bitcoin and the the the the transaction speed was something that was not comparable but from perspective of like I think when Pauling in got into the picture was basically to scale in a way of outside chain like enabling people to kind of go out and do the transaction faster the cheaper rate and like so we are going out and we are working with a lot of these companies which have millions and millions of users the biggest thing is now that can be done and why that can be done is because constantly one of the biggest things that I love about public blockchains is that the innovation in public blockchains is happening at a speed which is very very fast why because you're not reinventing the wheel every time in very fast. So we are going to do the same thing in the real time in web to the biggest challenge was if you have pay TM phone pay needs to be created it cannot use a legos of pay TM to go out and create phone but here the biggest benefit of a public blockchain is you see someone else whose open source building the tech if that tech makes sense people will adopt it and make it much better from their perspective and that is exactly what is happening even at Paul again. So we started at the initial like we had around seven transactions per second this month and we would achieve like a thousand and like by the end of this year we'll be around around 10,000 transactions per second for reference like if you look at visa and mastercard they have a high throughput but on an average visa and mastercard process around 3000 to 4000 transactions per second which means that the tech is scale to that level where these things can happen within a second sub one second as well. And it is at power with the way the current ecosystem sport this is something where you need to look at it from a perspective that like when you look at web to and when you look at like when you're when you're opening a website of apple or Samsung at the back end you have multiple data servers from where the data is getting in but when you say it you realize that at the back end there's so much going on and I think that is where we're going these chains individually will kind of go out and create that kind of a lot of things. And we're going to create that kind of a high transaction throughput multiple other chains together when they come in and it will reach that level we have that scalability now so I think that is no more like a kind of a big challenge anymore like how we will reach these kind of level of transaction outputs. So we are touched upon CBDC initiatives in India and RBI has been very focused on this is digital rupee pilots have also been very encouraging how do you see CBDCs and stablecoins coexisting in the Indian ecosystem particularly when comes to automation interoperability in particular and smart use cases very simply put like when you look at CBDC CBDC is well done system called high peliger fabric now when I was talking with you on delivery versus payment or like payment versus payment PVP or DDP. The biggest challenge for the system which RBI has created it can go out and settle PVP very easily and that is why like they're going out and they're having like all these benefits with the government gives our employees salaries or employee bonuses being given out in CBDCs. The challenges the assets do not exist on fabric you cannot create a delivery versus payment on the fabric system until this RBI comes into borrow and says we are going to be the asset issuers as well which means that they will say like if for a bank they want to issue an asset RBI will issue that asset and it would be on one single platform. It can happen it's not like an impossible task but it's going to be an uphill battle merely because of three reasons one nobody would want to go out and give you the rights to issue the ownership of that like tokenize that asset if the asset does not belong to you that is like a fundamental challenge that is going to come in if I want to tokenize gold and I have gold at my home I would not want you to go out and tokenize my gold. I would want myself to tokenize the second thing is from a perspective of the talent that is required and this is the problem with closed a lot of closed systems the talent to pull this kind of an effort is massive and since on private blockchains the talent is like very very very less probably like 120th of how how much because of salaries because of opportunities and what not the talent pool is very small and if the talent pool is very small it's going to be a uphill battle for them and the third thing is from a perspective of going out and improving constantly now in the play I said earlier also when you talk about public infrastructure everyone is raising money and is building public infrastructure so there is and everyone is using each other's legos when you go out and as a central bank try to do that then you need to innovate at the pace you are challenged by the entire world which is like going out and developing together coexisting as compared to you putting the money to reinvent or like go out and make those systems much more efficient so I think these are three fundamental challenges where what will happen is like cvdc's would play an important role they would be an important aspect when you come for inter bank settlements like today there is hundreds of crores that is getting settled through wholesale cvdc and that is where like the banks would kind of go out and do that but when it comes to assets that are not owned by rbi it's going to be like a challenging thing and that's where like I think either a rap version of cvdc or like which can go to other blockchains to kind of go out and take over the assets or from a perspective of stable coins which would come in and kind of go out and facilitate that that is something where both the systems will co exist they will challenge each other in some ways or the other but technically because both of the systems are in a way built on the same technology they kind of inherit the same terminologies or the efficiencies you can program it like so rbi has a pc bdc which they're rolled out I think two three weeks back I don't know what happened after that like how much has been issued or not but they want to kind of go out and do that but the innovation will always be kind of be slower on this side because of the three reasons that I mentioned actually polygon has worked on the interoperability and scaling globally and India by the nature of its volume has a way of testing out any technology for for scalability so in your opinion what are the lessons or intra learnings that could be relevant to India as India prepares to launch programmable payment raise that support people and agents I think the way like so I work with around seven governments across the world at different levels and different ways and one of the things that I'm seeing is from a perspective of most of these governments they are kind of like yesterday like two days back we had this whole Hong Kong government actually coming out with that and yesterday only we received an email asking us to kind of go out and share a lot of those findings that we have had in an invitation to us so that we can go out and contribute I think that is not happening in India that is where like the biggest challenges like I can go and approach multiple governments and probably I will be able to go out and I will be able to get them to talk to me within a day or two but when it comes to India I think that is one of the massive challenge who do you go to and talk to that is one and the second thing is from a global perspective I'm seeing a lot of those lot of these governments actually kind of going out and saying that we want to regulate these things that you want to build with the industry partners and I think the other thing that is happening in India is we do not know whether regulation is coming in whether Supreme Court is like I think last week said that they want to kind of go out and they want the government to regulate but when you look at and when you when you try to go out and see how internet it has to be done there is no clear path so a way like a way in which like this clear path can be established for engagement or how this can be done is something that would kind of help India a lot on how actually you can go out and build those systems but from a global perspective that is one of the top things how easily it is that you can go connect with the government share your thoughts go out and enable a pilot if you have done tons of pilots with Singapore government we have we've had like where we go back and forth a lot of those examples never work out but at least the government is open to kind of go out and do those things and that is something that is missing so there is no sandbox there is no way in which people can test it out try it out we tried once like in India with the with the Langanna government and the number of rules that needed to be amended the number of the even from a government perspective I would not say it was impossible but it was like quite difficult to find ways in which those amendments or these bodies would interact to go out and do those amendments so that any of those things that are happening globally can happen in the world let's fast forward a bit as per the 2020 what would in your mind India's payment stack look like in the future is it UPI 3.0 CVDC power network or something entirely that enables the next gen of commerce natively and just a thought experiment what you are view on that I think the current way in which you pay operates will operate because it's a massively scale system and it works but from that perspective like I think the efficiency would still be required so 2030 the way if I feel like the regulations open up the pay would be either the stable coins or CVDC is going out and enabling cross-water payments or like movement of money whenever it comes to moving money outside India second programmable money would empower a lot of those agentic frameworks a lot of that open banking that should be there and what will happen is UPI might also go out and build like a system where I don't know if you have ever heard of Bitcoin Lightning Network as a network actually you do not want to go out and transact on the Bitcoin network because it's expensive it's slow so what people do is they kind of continue like a bit of a security and then create like a lightning network which is where you can run that very fast very cheap and then what happens is a summary of those transactions actually just evolve and get wasted to kind of go out and have like the netting impact so I think UPI can also go out and involve evolving that system if it wants to move away from just being a messaging system to being like a actual message plus payment system like even today's the way CVDC is designed it works in in a very different manner as compared to how blockchain payments work today's Indian CVDC works on two days they have a messaging layer and they have a settlement layer if we need to kind of somehow find ways to merge this if this merges so that is where like I see UPI would evolve in not being a messaging system but being a system where you can have these small containers of trust just like UPI family accounts or UPI circle of trust you're moving money mostly into those circles so that is kind of off chain and only those transactions when they're netted they come on chain or you move from one container to another that is how UPI evolves you see the another stack which is on the CVDC site which is composable with all the blockchains and is also like seeing some of those table points emerging to kind of go out and make a perfect stack for India to move globe money across the world or within India seamlessly I sure it's been a pleasure having you on the show thanks a ton for insights into this brave new frontier payments absolutely it was a pleasure to be here thank you so much for hosting it has been a pleasure having you on the show and to our listeners thank you for tuning into another episode of India Fintech Diaries if you enjoyed today's discussion don't forget to subscribe and stay updated on the latest in India's Fintech landscape and do visit our website indiafintechdivies.com for show notes and other exclusive content until next time stay safe and stay QVista [Music]