Ep 97 Jasmine Edwards

This podcast is brought to you by the British Association for Music Therapy and produced and presented by Luke Hansley. For more information on BAMT, the website is www.bamt.org. Thanks for listening. [Music] This episode of Music Therapy Conversations is an interview with Jasmine Edwards that was conducted by Davina and the two of them have a very lively conversation. They're very used to working together and thinking together and I think this leads to some collaborative, in-depth, shared thinking about some really important topics in relation to music therapy and race and culture and research and clinical practice. So this is a real treat, it's a real honour to have Jasmine Edwards interviewed on the podcast and I think you're going to find this one very interesting and absorbing. Jasmine is a doctoral candidate and fellow within Steinhart Music Education with a focus in Music Therapy at New York University. She holds a B.M. and M.A. in Music Therapy from Florida State University and NYU, respectively. Her clinical experiences include private practice, outpatient, school-based community and medical pediatric settings and she's trained in NICU Music Therapy, First Sounds, RBL and Austin Vocal Psychotherapy. Jasmine has a vested interest in elevating dialogues about cultural humility within Music Therapy Education and clinical practice within both her teaching and academic writing. She has served as an adjunct faculty member in the Music Therapy departments at Howard University, New York University, Montclair State University, Nazareth College, Duchessney University, I'm not sure if I've pronounced that right and Molly University. So here is, this is Davine Ivanka Tosami talking to Jasmine Edwards. Hi Jasmine. Hello. So we're here today talking a little bit about academia, the US, being a black woman, being a brown woman and thinking about Music Therapy in the context of perhaps community and building community and what that means, all of you above being an America and what that means today. So if you just like to talk a bit about who you are, what you do and perhaps relate that to kind of some of your academic stuff, that'd be amazing. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be in conversation in this way. I was actually thinking about the first time that we met so many years ago now. I'd like the Edinburgh conference. Is that what we met? I think so. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think it was that. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So long ago now, which I guess was 2022. It's actually started the PhD program. Yeah. So it's exciting that we're both we're still connected and we're both trying out this whole academia thing as a student. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I'm Jasmine. I use her pronouns. I live and work in New York City, which is the traditional unceded land of the Lenny Lenape peoples. I am in my third year of the PhD program at NYU. So technically it's a PhD in music education with a focus in music therapy. I am I guess now a third degree music therapist because I got my undergrad in it from Florida State University and my master's from NYU. So really committing committing this profession, trying to hold accountable to its professed aims is best especially. Can see how it works for me and the people that I serve and the students that I work with, which is big. And so I'm thankful to meet people like yourself who are also doing the work and like have a critical lens. So gosh, my clinical experience is mostly with children, a lot in the medical setting, which probably has influenced my academic focus. I think like my experience in working in large institutions, you know, in conversation with my own lived experience as a black mixed race woman kind of brought me to explore this concept called cultural humility, which actually came from medical education training created by two black women physicians to explore how to mitigate the power and balance between provider and recipient of care, how to be considerate of how culture defines notions of health and well-being. And I've been working for a few years now to figure out how this can fit within music therapy as we understand it right now. And so for the past few years, I've been learning about it, lecturing about it. I created a course about cultural humility and music therapy that I've been teaching for a few years, mostly at NYU, but a few other places. And I'm trying to figure out how it fits into my doctoral research now too. And your doctoral research is specifically on cultural humility or what is that? Oh, I don't know, so far. I mean, I did a small study. I was not a small study. Unfortunately, it became a much bigger study than I anticipated, but last year I interviewed other people like myself, other like BIPOC music therapy educators who have created or taught a class about the role of culture and clinical practice. And initially, I was just interested in how these classes came to be because there's no requirement to have them in the states. Like, we operate from a competency model for better or worse, which means that like as long as we meet the competencies in some way, you can kind of do whatever you want. Your curriculum can look in any kind of way, which is, which sounds great. The program's academic freedom. However, there is no accountability measures that say, yes, we are hitting these competencies. And the way that culture is referred to in our guidelines is really ambiguous and unclear about what this actually looks like. It just kind of generally stuff about like, music therapy should be considerative culture. And that's kind of it. So I initially entered into this research process, curious about how these classes came to be. Because my thought was like, I bet something went down at these schools. Like, you had a conflict, something racist happened. You had students saying you need to get with the times, right? That was my sense, but I wanted to understand that. Like, how do these classes come to be? Yeah, that was my initial, my motivation and how do you teach them? Well, because I also was motivated by what I think is the lazy integration of D I related concepts within music therapy in ways that are really performative, where I think it's a disrespect for the, for this scholarship, too. It's like, oh, any of us can just integrate culture into our classes across curriculum without any study. Or consideration of how to bring it up, how to facilitate conversations that students have been socialized to believe are very taboo and challenging, right? And so I was watching witnessing so much harm happening by people just like plugging in something in their syllabus to hit a quota. And then I would hear about it, you know, across institutions just within my community. And we started to really frustrate me because it felt really disrespectful to this thing that I've been working really hard to understand and to implement. So I started with that interest thinking like these educators have a lot of knowledge that isn't acknowledged, that isn't acknowledged anywhere else, that maybe isn't written down. I want to make them feel like I value their opinions and I want to know more about how they teach these classes. And then I became way more interested in their lived experience, like what was happening to them because of this. And I found a lot of solace in what they told me because there were things I felt that I thought I was totally alone and so it became so nurturing for me, too. And right now I'm sitting on this really juicy data and trying to figure out where it's going to live. And if it will inform a larger project, which hopefully will be my dissertation. But I'm really eager to share it because I think it's really compelling and these are perspectives that have been excluded from the academy. So I'm figuring out what to do about that. Yeah, that sounds amazing. It sounds I definitely want to read that. And I wonder, so some of the reasons why I connected it in Edinburgh, as you said, was because we were talking about the same sort of thing, but this idea of kind of you doing in the US and I was doing in the UK. And where the parallels and where can we cross over or where where do we meet where do we diverge. But I'm really interested if you can think of any that don't don't give away too much. And I think I've been thinking about culture being used as a term instead of race, so then race becomes something that doesn't get talked about at all because it becomes a cultural issue. Whatever that means. And no one is really very clear about what the parameters are for culture because you think about someone's culture and that's every single part of their being everything is cultural. So when you then try to investigate something like disability awareness within the profession or I don't know anything like queer being queer and kind of homophobia in the in the profession. And you can't because there's no data for it because it's all under culture was all under a different umbrella and certainly racism, I think has been put under that, you know, you can't be not allowed to be or the cultural competency thing, which is where you kind of started from there. So do you have any kind of solid examples, maybe it doesn't have to be, but some thoughts about how it's gone wrong or how it's done badly. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I appreciate what you're raising now about like what these words actually mean and one thing I try to be clear about in my own teaching and writing is that I enter into cultural humility from a race based perspective. Like my lens is influenced by my racialized experience and my resonance with theories about race like critical race theory. And it has been my work, my humbling work to figure out ways that or to deepen my understanding of the ways in which race intersects with other dimensions of identity. And I do feel that responsibility, but I also try to be transparent about like this is how I am understanding it because this is my lived experience, but I think it is important to be clear about what are we actually talking about. That being said, I do think I am approached by students who have experienced harm in the in a classroom because of of my racial identity or even because of the way that race interacts with my gender interacts with my age as well. I've just noticed this thing and I don't I'm not alone in it. I know that from the inter the data set, but also just from my colleagues who are also people of color at predominantly white institutions, you know, I've I've done this thing that I call the academia hustle where I worked at like a lot of different schools as an adjunct mostly as the only black teacher teaching about culture. And I think basically what happens is I don't know if it's my vibe or the fact that I teach this topic like I will just be the one that students reach out to when harm happens somewhere else, which is really challenging for me because for a couple of reasons because academia does not support that kind of does not support the educator in offering the kind of support to students, which students really need like I want to be clear about that. I feel I know the need is there and I it aligns with my like ethic of care to show up for students in that way, but I feel the ways in which I'm not getting support for that extra labor like I'm not I'm not getting paid to do it. I'm not getting any kind of like emotional support for hearing these instances of harm that I've also gone through, right? So like that's a struggle for me like when do I have a boundary, but like the need is so profound like if they don't talk to me, then who are they going to talk to? And then you know all these racialized, you know, experience has come to the fore that I think black women have had placed upon them for for so long. So that's one part of what makes it complicated and then also that I sometimes feel like even if I have expertise on the topic, I don't have institutional power to really do something about the thing they're telling me about. So I become resigned to not resign, but the way that I think I can sustain myself in that kind of support is working with the student to figure out what their pathways for recourse could be like, do you want to talk to this professor? Do you want to find an affinity space like what's within your locus of control? And then there are other times when it's like, this is so egregious, I have to tell someone about this. I have an ethical responsibility. I cannot just stay with me and I will check with the student before escalating it. But I mean, I've seen the whole gamut like from things that are covert and subtle to over undeniable racism towards students about service users. Yeah, I feel like the whole range, like things that are subtle things that are based in like a history of, you know, some dynamic stuff that's been going on to like, I'm like reticent to say explicitly some of this stuff. But like, you know, you don't have to, it's like, I think I recognize it. And I think what I was just thinking about there was I also have that experience where people and perhaps not definitely in academia, but more so in supervision, where I'm a supervisor and the supervisor comes to me with some just horrific examples of treatment, being belittled, being and for different different types of racialized behaviors or racial racist behaviors for different different cultures. So certainly this the kind of belittlement, the infantilization of people from Asia. And when I say Asia, I mean kind of so sometimes it's different in the UK, in the UK, Asia is predominantly we say brown, like brown people, but I'm talking about kind of East Asia. But there's something that comes with that that culture that feels that they are subservient to and to the white to the kind of the white narrative and the ways that some some of some of the people have been treated that I've spoken to has been. I would never put up with that behavior, but that's just what they've been given to deal with. And then supervising people of color, particularly black men who, you know, some of their experiences are like unbelievable. And then I will say to a group, so I'm also, you know, involved with kind of thinking about supervision for the profession in the UK and thinking a bit more widely about it. And I will share some of those stories, not the specific details, but like this is happening now. Yeah. And they don't hear it. They can't see it. They've never seen it before. Oh my gosh. Of course they haven't, because you're the one who people feel safe enough to tell. Right? Yeah. That's there's power at play. And God, there's so many different levels of power that are at play. The power that's being wielded against these students, the lack of power they might feel to challenge or push back or said. Right? And then yours, like, I have, it's just it like hurts me to think about the ways in which we aren't believed. It's just really frustrating. And I think there's something there about the power that we don't really acknowledge. We don't even know what that means. Like you say, it's so stratified and there's so many layers of it that we don't, we haven't even peeled apart what power is in music therapy. Certainly, I don't think in the UK. We don't really know. So for instance, when we have some talking with thinking mainly about students from East Asia. And I'm thinking about how they describe to me how authority means there's a massive thing. So you've got this idea that culture then does play into the here's where you've got the intersectionality of culture and race. Where you have the racial behavior that kind of comes out or the whatever people are reacting to. And then you've got this cultural identity that you do not challenge authority. You do not question your elders or the people that are in charge. And then how do you then destabilize or defragment those power dynamics without truly addressing that? I don't know if we've done any of that work. It's hard being a lecturer and kind of thinking about that. How do I hold and support you? How do I make sure your voice is heard? But I find myself being in positions, I think like academia puts you in those positions of power that hierarchical thing. And it needs to be that way as well. You need to be sharing expertise. You can't be assuming that student knows everything because why are they a student? Yeah, it's so funny you're bringing this up because this is a conversation I recently had with some colleagues and kind of sorting out like where does the power live? Because this guy came up and when I just taught cultural humility to the grad students in January. And you know, I give like a positionality statement about like here, here are the frameworks that influence how I understand this topic and how I teach this class. I talk about Black feminist thought, critical pedagogy, restorative pedagogy. And I talked about decolonization, not as something I can claim because it is incommensurable. We don't know what it looks like, how it manifests, but that it is in the room. It often comes up when we have these kinds of conversations about identity, antidepressant practice and social justice. So I talked about it a bit. And then I had a student ask about like, let's see how I can phrase this. We started to talk about how is it possible to really have a decolonial framework as a teacher. And I was like, I don't think you can because we are in a capitalistic exchange. And ideally, we could be in a reciprocal relationship where there is sharing, there's exchange, but like in this configuration of how academia works in this time and in this place, you are a consumer and I am provider of something. And I feel strongly about honoring student preferences and I believe deeply students do come in with knowledge, things that I don't know and I feel responsible for validating, uplifting and hopefully expanding that knowledge base. But it is not free. We are not free because you're paying to be here. And if you go to NYU, you're paying a lot of money here. So decolonization is incompatible with a capitalist framework at this current moment. I can be informed and interested in those tenants, but I don't see how it could thrive in the same way that I don't think you could be abolitionist and work at a jail. You know, truly you can be truly those thoughts and and and let it govern your work, but like it is incompatible with the larger system that you're trying to interact with. So I mean, I completely understand what you're saying. Yeah, I completely agree with it. But don't we do that on a daily basis. Yeah, just being, just being in academia, I feel that strongly. The, I mean, I put my children through school and that feels wrong in the same way that, you know, when they show neurodiverse ways of thinking and they're in the system and if you don't turn up for school on time, you get a late mark and then you get detention and then, you know, and these are the systems that we put in place because that's how we measure success. That's how we like, it's all geared towards capitalism. It's all geared towards putting constraints. But having a job and being paid to do what we do, we are part of that. Like we are serving the trench. Right. Yeah, like are we complicit? Yeah. And so where can we push and be safe enough and like honor the needs of the people that we're serving and recognize that we are working against like these pretty gargantuan self-sustaining systems. I feel like I'm constantly negotiating that. And when I work with students, they sort of like, I feel actually get a little defeated when I give them this answer because I think they think of me as this like radical. I came in here and I just like, fuck stuff up when I was student and now I'm like, you know, bring it down the man. Then I say like, you have to choose your battles or you have to be strategic or like, where are you safe enough and they hear that and they're like, oh, what? Like, that's what you do. I had this idea about who you were and I'm like, yeah, and I got to eat, you know, I mean, I need a job. I don't, I don't have the privilege of totally not being beholden to these systems. Right. So how can I work within them and also like sleep at night? I always try to figure out. I, my thoughts right now are kind of, I went straight to Elon Musk. I don't want to go there. I don't want to think about him too much. But the reason why my brain went there is I was thinking about capitalism and who's got something about perhaps who does have the privilege to kind of live in that way. And, and live by their principles regardless. I couldn't really name anyone. Actually, the only person that we've probably talked about before in our groups is Tricia, Tricia Hershey, who writes rest's resistance and she kind of talks about getting the rest and as a black woman, like getting that rest that's kind of intergenerational needed and it's like, it's more than just, just getting a good night's sleep at night is kind of resting your soul resting. And I was like reading the book and then get very frustrated because like, who's got time with these? I can't be. While I was reading the book, I was, I was finding myself taking that and I was thinking, this is great. However, when do we get time, like, who does the washing and the cleaning and the work and the, and I really found it difficult to wrestle with, you know, this idea. I really wanted to follow the best of resistance kind of ideology, but how is it fitting with life and I didn't have the answer for that. And apparently, so I don't know, I've not done any research, but apparently, I think I think it was as Thomas who kind of said, she's very privileged, like she's rich. Yeah, so she can take a nap. She can take a nap when she likes. Yeah, yeah, I feel similarly about it. Like, I, that's a, like, lovely concept. And I maybe we expand what rest means when we are, like, is rest saying no to the ask where I'm not going to get paid or it's saying no to something that there isn't, it's not going to be reciprocal, right? I'm not going to get as much from this as I am going to end up giving, like, is that a restful choice. And then you make decisions and kind of, maybe don't compartmentalize, but you kind of put, you draw around what you find valuing and what you're willing to receive and give for services or for your time or for your mental energy, whatever it is. But often, I wonder how often that actually works. Yeah, it doesn't always work for me. It doesn't work for your group that hope sometimes I can break stuff too. And I can have someone hold me accountable and say, you don't really want to do this. Or like, saying yes to speak when you're not getting paid, you told us a year ago that you weren't going to say yes to things that you don't get paid for anymore. So what's up, you know, needing like accountability partners to like hold me to my word and my boundaries, because I'm not consistent with it, you know. And here you're referring to our supervision group, or we call it a supervision group, but it's a bit more than that, isn't it? Kind of started off the supervision group held up and started by Dr. Natasha Thomas. And you remember, I remember as well as Regina, Regina Thompson and Lauren Reagan. That's it. So, um, um, who are fantastic music therapists in and around everyone's an America apart from me. Everyone loves to cry apart from me. I think it's a cultural thing. I think, you know, I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing or not. But there was something about we all had supervision with Dr. Thomas separately and she saw that we were having the same things or that we would perhaps benefit from discussing the same things in a group and she brought us all together. And it's been more than the sum of its parts. It feels like, um, yeah, we've gained a lot. And, and we ended up going to the band 2024 conference. And Regina and Lauren came over, flew over and you were online part of that, um, that presentation we did. And it felt really powerful. I think it was really powerful. Um, but before we kind of, I mean, it's just to give people a bit of context, because I know we start talking about it, so given that an idea of what we're talking about, we're talking about our group. But to go back a little bit, um, the other thing that came into my head with Elon Musk was they are this thing that happened very recently in American history. And talking about your kind of culture, humility and kind of your remit as a DAI stuff. And the first, one of the first acts that Trump did was to break that off the agenda. Like, stock stock and barrel. What, what was that like? Not surprising. But it felt, I mean, I'm still grappling with it. I'm grappling with the way DEI is being weaponized, the way it's coded language for black. Um, a lot of the time, like, we, it's, you know, people throwing around like, this city has a DEI mayor or these DEI hires or the reason why all these terrible things have happened. And I mean, that's a pretty over racist message. Like, the not DEI mayor. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how they refer to the mayor of Baltimore. Like, yeah, the DEI mayor. Yes. And we've had some like really tragic occurrences and, and loss of life around different, like, different flights and different air traffic control issues. And the blame has been placed on the DEI hires, the people who got hired because of their identity, but they're unqualified, which is, again, racist and endless to say, like, the people who are not way less qualified. And we're hiring them because of the woke agenda and we're jeopardizing working lives, which is like totally incorrect and deeply problematic and racist and ableist. And it's like a scapegoat kind of thing. Like, all of America's problems are because we're hiring too many people of color, too many disabled people, too many queer people. And then for me, it brought me to this moment of like, and I feel funny saying this, I know my work matters. But it did make me feel like, oh, my God, is my work going to be obsolete. Like, where can I get a job? Like, because the reality is it's not just federal organizations that are impacted by this, like, other private sectors are following suit, right? And anywhere that gets federal funding is saying, like, okay, we need to remove this language, these classes, these competencies. So there's like such panic and chaos right now. I'm worried. I'm definitely worried. I'm fearful of this message. I mean, there's so many things I'm worried about with these executive orders and this, like, profound abuse of power. And how, again, like, this is a part of the total disrespect of what the IJ work could be. It's like, it is superfluous, it's performative, it doesn't do anything. We don't, there's no issues that need to be addressed through it. Like, it's a disregard of it, which is the same disregard that I was talking about earlier, where people were just doing it without any kind of examination of, what is this really about? And Bell Hooks warned us of the anti-intellectual movement, particularly towards the black intellectual. And I really don't mean this in, like, a self-congratulatory, like, academic ivory tower way, but there is a lack of deep thought about, like, literally anything. What does D.E.I.J. mean? Who was protected by it? Which is, like, mostly everybody, women, you know, like this. Well, like, you know, so many folks are protected by this, and for it to be dismissed as something that's, like, performative and insignificant, given American history specifically, is, like, totally unfounded, misguided, problematic. And we should be worried about it as music therapists, because the institutions where we could go for funding, like, the NIH, or places that we could work, like, a VA hospital, are impacted by this, and we will be, too, and not to mention people that we serve who are, who are rendered vulnerable by different social conditions. Right now, I'm just keeping on, I guess. I'm just going to keep on doing my work, and hope there are enough people and institutions that still think it's valuable. Because it's, I don't know, it's mine. It's my story. It's the story of the people that I've served. It's the story of my family. I don't know. It's like the water in which I swim. It's everywhere. So I think I'm just going to stay the course and really pull up on my resources, which is possible to get through it. I guess it's eye-opening to see or to understand or feel that there are people who don't swim in those waters. You know, there are so many people who don't get what it is that you're talking about at all. I think certainly in the UK, it feels as though that momentum that we had in the pandemic and after George Floyd was so strong, like, there were so many movements that happened that felt like they were moving, certainly in the right direction, people being heard. I certainly woke up. And the idea now that the momentum's gone, it's become very much more back to where it was. People still have the same language. They still want to kind of do and we do it the other way we do EDI. So they still want to do EDI work or they still want to certainly say where's our diverse statement, you know, how have we kind of made sure that we're looking after all the isms or whatever it is. And but it has become very tokenistic and there's been so little actual work that only this is still for the person of color or the person with the disability or the person who work with whatever whatever the intersectionality is to do the work in order to be. For them to be part of the organization or part of the story, you know, to put their story forward. Yeah, I think that's true in our profession too. Yeah, what I wrote a bit about with support from you and I'm really thankful to Luke and their team for being open to like a commentary, a critical engagement with their study about white privilege being the music therapy in the UK. And that was something that obviously we know and I tried to include there, which is like we've gotten so many lovely beautifully written statements about how we're going to make our question more diverse. You know, we need more collisions of color. Have there been any initiatives to change recruitment or how to keep students who are at the margins in programs, right? Like there's been no action, no tangible substantial action for my view. And that's a problem and this is something that like also a lot of revolutionaries activists have warned us of, you know, that I love that Fred Hampton quote where he's like, the series gray, but theory without practice ain't shit. It doesn't matter how glorious your theory is. You don't do anything with it. It's not functional. Yeah, well, looks at the same thing. So yeah, I feel that how do we move away from tokenization and from performance and into action. And I struggle with that feeling of like I need to convince people that this matters. Like I resent that sometimes. And then I know sometimes it's really crucial. And how do I do that in ways that don't deplete me that are effective that aren't ancestral? We have like ancestral guides for how to change hearts, how to tell them ways. So is that solution is that kind of the way forward in the same way that our group feels like it's bigger than the sum of all of us. And that's been through sharing stories that's been through sharing experiences and kind of connecting with each other across the pond, you know, and not even on one side or America side. But you're in New York, I think, Lawrence in California, like across the whole of America. It's not. It feels very like wide reaching. And yet we're having the same experiences. And yet we're talking the same language. And that hasn't felt at any point that that's been a difficulty to get people to understand. The the core, the knob of what we're trying to talk about. And those are where the moments have been really powerful. Is that is that how we. I was you code to the word fix. And I know fixing is terrible. But is that how we address or see. Like some of these issues like the storytelling, the narrative, the ancestral ways of knowing. That's all I can think of. Yeah. Being together, like gathering, being together, you know, we're doing this really, but having those points of contact, like that community is it is just it. And I think there's been so many posts and attempts towards really elevating the power of mutual aid and grassroots. Like if we're getting these messages that we cannot count on our government, which many people, communities have known. We've been known about that. But now we're seeing unabashedly that we have to take care of ourselves. And so how to build those care networks. I think is it. It's again, I don't know if it's the fix, but it's like the only thing I can think of to keep on going as best we can. So I do think it's in gathering, it's in community, relationship. And it's in stories like. Yeah, you know what that's like. And even when we get to, I mean this, I have this wonderful book in dark and story work about like, oh my gosh, I'm butchering the title. But about like black feminist ideology and qualitative research, the author talks about like there are three, three parts of storytelling, which is like the storyteller, the story listener, and then the story itself. And there's so much that happens right there in that. And yeah, I keep thinking of like W.E.B. Dubois, who said like through the songs, the songs that are laments of the circumstance of black enslaved people. Like the hope was that these songs are not only sung, but that they are heard. And that hearts are changed. And I like have to maintain my hope for this around that I think. That's like a great thing. And it's serious, isn't it? That the hope is kind of all that's getting us through right now. I mean, I feel, I watch the news, I feel so hopeless. All of the above, you know, just he'll say something and you'll be like, what's on earth? Yeah. How are we listening to these people? How they have the amount of power that they have? And we know how, we know what they have. Yeah, the white supremacy knows that should be scared of what happens when people gather. Like that's what they're trying to dismantle. Like that there is power in community. There's power with identifying with a circumstance outside of your own. And I think that's a part of the DEI attack of like, they're getting too big, you know, they're learning too much kind of things. Sure. It's a direct response. And they're trying to make it like this is flimsy and it's unfounded. But really, I think it's a fear based response. That's interesting. Do you feel that in the people, like in the people that you work with or the communities you're part of? Do you feel that there's going to be an uprising perhaps? Is it going to be a reaction on the streets? I think there have, I mean, there have been, you know, already people organizing and like in these more mutual aid, like grassroots kinds of ways and figure out how to make pods, like if stuff goes down. Who's in charge of what? How do we support each other when there's an emergency? So I don't know. I definitely feel the pushback. I feel the need for organization and strategy. How do you actually leverage our collective power? And a little bit of waiting to be honest, waiting to see like what's real and what isn't. Is this a smoke and mirrors kind of thing? What's actually going to get implemented? What can truly happen? And so it does feel like kind of a strange time. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how it's going to uncover. Yeah, only time will tell. Yeah. I have a feeling, Jasmine, that we could talk for 17 hours straight on this alone. Because there is so much more to explore, but I'm really interested to hear about your research when you kind of write it up or when you discuss it. And I think, I think from what I've read. Generally, that the idea that cultural humility thing has kind of really hooked in and people understand the difference between why they would use cultural humility as opposed to cultural competence, which comes back to your studies. And I think I think we perhaps are going to have to collaborate some point and write something together because I think we're talking, like I say, we talk the same thing. And I'm thinking very closely about culture and what culture means. And so I think we have a beautiful thing going. And I might just leave it there and say, thank you so much for your time. And it's been really lovely to talk to you. And maybe there'll be a part two. This does feel very to be continued definitely. Thanks to Devina, thanks to Jasmine, thanks as ever to BAMT, the website www.bamt.org. Thanks to Jim Howard for the music for the podcast and thanks as ever to you for listening. Bye for now. [Music]