Ep. 953: You Can’t Afford Not To Fish

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. If you open your truck door in October and it looks like a hurricane rolled through a sporting goods store, you are dealing with something called CAB Chaos. On washboard, dirt roads, loose vinyls, slide off the seat, gear rolls across the floorboards, water bottles are everywhere, well FHF gear. An X Overland built a modular system engineered to keep your gear organized while driving. You can anchor the bulkhead panel between your front seats, snap on the Waypoint GP pouch for your optics and other gear, and you can mount a flex med kit right on your headrest plus a whole bunch more. Keep your cab dead quiet and staged for every pursuit at FHFgear.com. Welcome to the news show everybody, this week we've got more news on America's most divisive issue, which is live scope. We've got only Finn's Caddy in the studio, we've got a market report on panfish fillets as the Cajun's column. We're going to cover Ted Cormorant Killer Cruise, Senator out of Texas, we're going to talk about how Phil loves video games, US Senate candidate and Alaska native Mary Peltola joins us to talk fisheries and more, but first we're going to get into that live scope deal with the one and only Seth Morris. Yep. Hold on Seth. I've got a new sound and it's very full. This is the headliner. Right. I couldn't tell what he's saying. Meet either news headliner, it's early, but you've got to stay. That's great. Love it. That's not good. Steve doesn't like it. You think that's good? I think it's pretty good, Steve. It's early in the show, but you the listener, you've got to stay, you got to be here for the whole show. Oh, the audience is going to love it. All right. We're joined by Ryan Gary, who is the title black bass manager for the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, welcome to the show, Ryan. That's good. You got the key cut over to me real quick. Yes. That's carbon County Montana, ladies and gentlemen. Come on. Anyway, back guys are very important figure in mind in my children's lives here. Thank you. No, not you, Randall. Cut back Phil. Send Randall can quit campaigning. Thank you, Randall. Randall doesn't know who this guy is, but let's vote from carbon county. Go ahead. That's good Phil. Sorry. Sorry. I just had to get. I didn't want Randall to be there for hours. Yeah. Yeah. So, Gary is here joining us today. He's title black bass manager for the Maryland Department of Natural Resources. And he ran what I would consider the most legit live scope study that I've ever seen. So, Ryan, can you please give us a rundown on this study? Yeah. Well, thanks for having me and thanks, thanks for that compliment. So, I think I heard a little bit on this show a year or so ago, but Major League fishing, which if anybody's not familiar with, is one of the largest bass fishing organizations in the country, made a big change to one of their big tours, the Bass Pro Tour. And that was basically dividing up the tournament periods into being able to use livescope and not use livescope. So, there's three periods throughout the day. And they restricted use of livescope to one of those period out of three. And so, when I heard this news at the beginning of 2025, you know, as a scientist, as a biologist, you know, the first thing I thought was, this is a perfect lineup for a scientific study of, you know, how does livescope reform, facing sonar effect, catch rates? Because we can compare these periods where they're using it to the periods where they're not using it. And even more so, you know, working with Major League fishing has been awesome because they're really focused when using some of this data and how people like myself, biologists, scientists can use this to further research and further use it. And so, the Bass Pro Tour is a catch-way release format, which differs from typical bass tournaments where you fish all day for your biggest five and you weigh those at the end of the day and whoever has the biggest five wins, the catch-way release format basically is cumulative weight throughout the day. So, these anglers catch a fish, they weigh it, they release it and they keep fishing and, you know, the total cumulative weight of all the fish they've caught throughout the day counts to their bag. And really important with that is because professional tournament, the lot online, each one of these anglers has an on-boat aficion. So, that on-boat aficion, ways that fish leases it, and then, of course, really important data points that are associated with it, not just fish weight, but also the ABS locations of where it was caught, the lure that it was caught on, the depth of water that it was caught in, and the path that it was caught on, grip wrap was on open water, it was caught on a brush pile. And so, we were able to use this really in-depth data set to analyze the 2025 Bass Pro Tour, which was eight different events spanning from Lake Conroad down and catch this all the way up to Comet River, Forters, Maryland, Virginia, trees that I manage, and then all the way up to Saginaw Bay. So, eight really diverse fisheries, and that accounted to, you know, 73 individual anglers that fished in these events that we could analyze their data, and over 12,000 fish caught during that time span that we can analyze. And so, it's really comprehensive, the data set, it allows us to compare these fisheries, it allows us to compare the anglers' performance when they're using the technology versus when they're not using the technology, compare them to themselves, and then also, you know, compare them throughout these systems. And, overall, what we really found was that across these eight systems, generally, Ford Facing Sonar or LiveScope increased your catch rate, so how many fish you caught per hour, but that varied across those different systems. So, we had two systems that really stood out, that really Ford Facing Sonar really increased the catch rates. One of those increased the catch rate by 1.6 fish per hour, so if you're fishing across in an eight hour day, you know, that's an increase of, you know, almost 12 fish throughout the day, which is pretty substantial, but only two of those lakes did not have any significant difference in the catch rate, so Ford Facing Sonar did not make a difference, but what's really important there is that, you know, at best, this technology through our analysis was a wash. So, never was not using Ford Facing Sonar and advantage to using Ford Facing Sonar. The other thing we looked at was the average size of fish caught, which kind of surprised me doing that, but that, you know, we didn't really see a large difference in the size of fish caught when using Ford Facing Sonar or when not using Ford Facing Sonar. So, across those eight systems, generally there was no difference in the size of fish you caught when you were using the technology versus not using the technology. And the last thing we did was we looked at those habitat factors that I talked about. So, the depth of water that fish were caught in, you know, was it caught on a brush pile or rip wrap or open water. And what we found was that anglers were almost three times more likely to catch a fish using Ford Facing Sonar in deep water, so water that was deeper than 10 feet and more open water. So, what I kind of equate that to is, you know, having a set of binoculars when you're out hunting. So, if you're hunting grouse, you know, it's probably not going to be helpful in deep thick woods to have binoculars, but if you're out, you know, in an open desert environment hunting elk, you know, having binoculars or a spotting scope is going to be a big advantage. And that's kind of the results we found from that habitat analysis using a live scope. So, that's just kind of a quick, you know, dirty dive into, you know, the analysis that we did on this tournament series. So, what was the lake you saw the significant difference in, like, higher catch rates? So, we saw significant difference in increasing catch rates on six different lakes, but the one where we saw the largest difference was Lake Conroe down in Texas. Okay. And that was that 1.6 mish per hour increase when you were using the technology. Now, could that be from time of year, just where the fish are setting up? You know, I don't know Conroe, I've never fished it, but like, if it was a spring tournament, maybe they're, they're just, it's like better fishing in the spring compared to a different time of the year. Yeah. So, we weren't able to compare, you know, these tournaments happened throughout the year from, from February all the way to August. So, we weren't really able to substantially say whether seasonality played a difference. Yeah. But one of the things we kind of speculated on is that Lake Conroe has a lot of really good shallow habitat in the summer and good aquatic vegetation. But the Lake Conroe tournament happened down in February and typically that's a time of year down in Texas where we would see them in more deeper water, more open water. And Lake Conroe also has a lot of submerged timber. So, while it is more open, there is some structure out there. but it's not incredibly complex. So that's kind of one of the things we speculated on that during that time of year, you know, when those fish typically tend to be a little bit deeper, you know, this is probably one of the reasons that may have contributed to that big increase and catch rate using the technology down at Lake Conno. - Gotcha. Let me kind of hit him with a clarifying question. - Yeah. - Were you saying that that live scope was never a deficit? - Yeah, so in our analysis, you know, we looked at eight different lakes and we never saw that, or that live scope, negatively impacted catch rates. At it's worst when you were using live scope, it was a wash, it was equal to using, or equal to not having live scope. - Yeah. - Hmm. - Interesting. - Yeah, a little bit makes sense. So like a guy pulling into a brush pile, right? He's gonna fish it. You know, he knows where to cat, you know how to work it. - Yeah. - But out in that big open water, instead of being like, I'm gonna cast the whole damn lake is what you'd have to do. Or it's like, no, I'm just gonna cruise and find a fish. - Yeah, I think, I think once, when this technology came out, like it significantly changed the offshore fishing in these lakes it, you know, you couldn't, like you said, just if you're offshore, you don't really know what you're casting to, unless you like see, you can obviously, you can read a map, like these days there's maps, so you can tell if like you're on a hump or something. But I mean, offshore, it's tough to fish without it. So, you know. - Just needle and haystack. - Needle and haystack, like what you were saying, Ryan, like fish that are set up in deeper water, it seems to be more effective, which makes total sense. - Yeah. - Especially in lakes like, you were saying they were on, on like Murray, right? Like, I think like Murray is a lake where there's a lot of suspended fish that aren't, aren't even around structure that just, you know, out there, you know, which technology really helps for that. Ryan, when you looked at this study and we're following these, these anglers, what was there a angler that really stuck out as like the premier life scoper? - So we didn't get really that far into the weeds on it. I mean, I had all these, you know, I could obviously tell what I had anglers names associated with catch rates and associated with fish caught. But, you know, we had, it's such an immense data set, you know, 12,000 fish, eight different events, you know, all throughout the day. And so, I didn't narrow it down. I'm sure, you know, I could have looked into that and seen, you know, what anglers were better at using it, which were not as good as using it. But in general, I was just looking for these larger scale trends on, you know, how is it affecting catch rates or fish size in some of these tournaments? - Gotcha. I know it varies a lot from like to lake, but in your opinion, is, is life scope something that we're going to be, do you think in 10 years, kind of like crystal ball? Is it something that's going to be banned in areas? And free to use in other areas, is it going to be like a state-to-state thing or a lake-to-lake thing? What's your thoughts on that? - I think it really depends on the lake and the species. You know, one of the main reasons we did this study because we were hearing from our anglers that were concerned about, you know, is this having effect on fisheries? And so, I really see this as, you know, if you have a shallow system that's really complex habitat, brush piles, submerge aquatic vegetation, you know, I'm not as concerned about it. But if I have a deeper lake, you know, where, you know, there might be a subset of the population that's now available to be targeted because of this technology, I might be more concerned about it. You know, we looked at just black bass, you know, which is largely a cash and release fishery. So the only thing that we're really concerned about is, you know, angling mortality, you know, is that increasing as a result of increased catch rates and targeting these different subsets that weren't previously available. But I think if you look at other species, you know, like paddlefish, there's talk about it being banned and I think it is banned in North Dakota or Montana using live scope because you can clearly see these large animals, you know, 100 plus pounds. And it's, you know, it's not very ethical, at least in a lot of people's opinions. So I think it really depends on the species and the fishery, you know, what I really recommended to a lot of, you know, biologists or fisheries managers in this research is that, you know, if you have one of these fisheries that's more conducive to increased catch rates with this technology, you know, a deep in more open water system, you know, maybe if you start to see concerning trends in your fisheries population, you know, investigate, you know, what is the prevalence of forward-facing sonar and, you know, how effective are they being in that fishery? I don't necessarily see it banned except in, you know, some of those certain cases like paddlefish, but I do really see fisheries managers and state agencies reacting to the efficiency of the technology and we've seen that in some situations where there have been lakes throughout the country that have reduced their bag limits on certain species as a result of the increased prevalence of forward-facing sonar. Ryan, you don't need to comment on this, but you know, one of the things I think you're going to, there's going to be a reckoning sooner than later is on Gatorhund. Me and Seth were just down Gatorhund, live scope Gatorhund. Oh my gosh. Yeah, look. Yeah, it's effective. I don't think I'll have to reckon with that. We don't have any Gators up in there. Live scope Gatorhund is a whole deal, man. I can, there's no bounds at which the forward-facing sonar hasn't reached. Yeah, be like, oh, that one's nine feet, four inches. Right there. Yeah, it's freaking, he's thinking he's all hiding on the bottom. Yeah. Yeah, man. Well, cool, Ryan, man, like I said, I think this is the most in-depth study we've seen on it. And you got a lot of good info there. And I don't know. I'm curious to see where the future holds for forward-facing sonar. But, you know, only Finn's Katie, have you ever fished? Have you ever seen this? Oh, yeah, I've seen it online, for sure. I've seen videos. But you haven't fished it. No, no, no, no, no, no. I can only comment so much being so removed from a lot of sports fishing. But to me, I mean, I think it makes sense in a lot of instances. I was actually talking to Corey about it yesterday, where he's like, dude, if you're a guide and you're having people pay to catch and kind of your professions on the line, totally makes sense there. Style of fishing I'm doing. I'm like, I think there's a difference between getting better at fishing and getting better at finding the fish. And I feel like there's so much personal reward when you can do that on your own in a way. But, dude, I mean, totally makes sense. There's a time and place for this technology. It's super interesting and fascinating to me. Well, what's cool these days is like these pro-level tours like the Elite Series or the Bass Pro Tour. They're splitting it, so like what Ryan was saying, they have three periods during the day. One of the periods they're allowed to use it two of the periods are not in like the Elite Series. You can, they do a coin flip. So you can like 50% of the places where they fish, you can use it 50% you can't. So it's, it seems like these organizations are noticing that it's like, it's a thing. And so they're kind of going back to the old days of not using it, but they're still using it. So they're just splitting it up. - That's the biggest question. - And I like that. Oh, sorry, go ahead. - No, sorry, that's the biggest question I've had is just like how people feel about it being used in tournaments. Cause I feel like that just like drastically has changed what it means to be involved in sports fishing. - Man, it's, that's one of those things where we could sit here for hours and talk about it. - In fact, we have. - Yeah. - And there's, I mean, there's thousands and thousands of podcast hours you could listen to on different opinions and then some people love it, some people hate it. That's kind of all I can, all I can give you, it's pretty split in my opinion. What you say, so Ryan, in your experience? - Yeah, it's definitely pretty split. There's a lot of guys that, you know, feel like it takes some of the skill out of it. And there's a lot of guys who feel like, you know, this is the new wave and it's coming. So hop on the train. - Yep, yep. I hear that a lot hop on the train or get run over. - Mm-hmm, hate the game, not the player. - Yep. - Whatever. Thanks, man. - Thanks, Ryan. - I appreciate you having me on. - Thank you. - All right, take it easy. All right, Phil hit it. - Nice. - Yeah. - Thanks. (laughing) Steve, why do you make me like a bullet point list of things that you would like to see or hear? here. Oh, no, you want to know? Yes. Pacific sounds. The viewer can't tell the viewer can't tell us the problem. Okay. The cardboard. Now they know we we repaint this whole damn room. Nate restains this table and then you come in and put all this cardboard around. Audience right in if you can see any of the cardboard. No, he hides it from him. He hides it from him. Oh, here's a deal. As I said before, I don't try African emojis whatsoever. But except for my daughter, I'll put emojis in there because it's just a running joke between us. However, I was like, if there was, I was like, there isn't an emoji I want and the only emoji I want doesn't exist, which is a tough titty emoji. That's the only one I would ever use. If I hadn't, if like if there was an emoji, people like thumbs up people, if I had an emoji for communicating with my kids, right? I would be able to save most of my text messages and send them a tough titty emoji, which made me be like, what would a tough titty emoji look like? So I got stitches. I think it's like a random stimpy. It's like it's a hog. It's a hog. Tea. A pair of stitches. A pair of snipple. No, don't think it like a hog tea with calluses. Like a real random stimpy kind of thing. You can't go into super detail though, because these emojis are small. Well, I know, but here's the deal. I was talking to one of, I was talking to Logan Dubb. I was like, man, we should have, you can get, we should design a package of emojis that they call them stickers when you do this. I didn't know that. Design a package of downloadable emojis that would be appropriate. The tough titty will be like a add-on. It'll be like appropriate emojis for people that like, for people that hunt in fishing stuff. Like dead deer. Like a big box down emoji. Yeah, like a big box with like, you know, drop to, I don't know. If so, he says that's easy to do. But what we need is people to write in with what emojis they feel they're missing. Like they're arsenal of emojis is short on, like what is the emoji if you had, like for me, the tough titty emoji, what emoji do you wish you had to facilitate quicker communication with your peers? So if you have ideas, we could do 10, we could do 20 and we'll create a package of emojis that you could download and put on your phone and it will include, once you figure out what it needs to look like, it'll include a tough titty emoji. So someone's complaining to you, you send them that. So write it into like, I really don't understand what's going on with this meeting later. You'd be like, don't even need to reply, dude. I mean, you reply, but never in my life did I imagine that I would be involved in even creating a more distance and creating a pack of emojis. I might become a user. If I found, if I found a collection of emojis that helped me, I was switching, begin using them. Where should they send these names? We need to work up like a dozen. Yeah, a dozen emojis. The mediator podcast at the mediator.com subject line emoji, dash, whatever you want. Like emoji idea. Yeah. Maybe you'll figure it out. Yeah. Don't put an emoji in there. Light bulb. Yeah, because if you put an emoji in there, you're communicating. You wouldn't need our your, are you demonstrating that you already have, you're already facilitated an emoji communication. Whether your season's already open, you're still counting down the days. The meet-eater store has what you need to get ready. We're talking first light, F H F Sig Sauer, mulchery, Phelps, the brands, we actually run in the field. Plus brand new T's hoodies and hats that just dropped with more drop in every month. Also check out our new meet-eater grocery game bags. These game bags are ultra light, breathable nylon. They cool your meat fast and keep it clean from the kill site to the cooler. They got reflective trim on them so you can keep working after dark and find your bags and if you got them hanging way up in the tree in the middle of the night. And once you've got meat and the cooler, we've got you covered there too. Seasonings, cookbooks, and knives to cook up everything you bring home to check it all out. Head to the meet-eaterstore.com. Okay, way of the hunter. Steve, that's right. Moving on to more things that I've been doing that you probably have a problem with. First of all, I just want to say I thought you would appreciate the Steve Miller band. You didn't like that? Man, you know what? He didn't even know it. I hate the Steve Miller band. You know, that doesn't really surprise you, but I just thought that the 70s rock would, you know, I would be in hearing. I hate, hate, hate. Really? The Steve Miller band. Okay. Is he alive? That'd be a good one for dead or alive. I don't think he is. I don't think he is. They're just too chill for you, too laid back. I just, it's, no, I've never, I could never stand Steve Miller. The only thing good about, well, you know, 83 years old. Cory, Cory, Cory Googled Steve Miller band guy in the podcast. Steve Miller. Steve Miller band, you know, the main guy. Because you know what? I want to do it. I keep trying to get Spencer to do this. It's a game called Dead or Alive 3-pack. Because everybody knows Dead or Alive. But a Dead or Alive 3-pack is you take three dudes named Steve. So Steve Miller, Steve Buscemi, Steve Jobs, and then you got to go Alive, Alive, Dead. It's a Dead or Alive 3-pack, but he won't do it. It doesn't work without trivia. Yeah, I think Spencer is right on that one. You can do a Dead or Alive 6-pack. We just do 20 of them. We can do a whole. You're going to have to be hard. You got to like, you're not going to think of like 20 dudes named Steve. Bob Dylan, Bob Dole, Bob Seger, BD3-pack. Anyways, Steve, I'm playing a game. It's called The Wave of the Hunter 2. Came out in September on PC, PlayStation 5, and the Xbox Series consoles. It's a hunting game. You kind of have to suspend your disbelief here because you sort of are the overseer of this reserve and you're in charge of kind of restoring it, rebuilding tree stands, and managing the wildlife. My kid plays this game. Really? Randall, you've been playing the game as well. What are your thoughts? I invited Randall to play because I do not have the context of a real life hunter, a lifetime of hunting exploits to compare this to. So this is what it's like. Yeah, I know all about it now. Ask me anything. Yeah, you know, I haven't been playing video games seriously since I was 20-21, maybe, 22. Got laid off from a construction job and bought a bathrobe in an Xbox 360 and just got after it. So when Phil invited me to play this game with him, I was thrilled. I've been coming to the office more so that we can play this game. I've found perhaps what was most rewarding was the ability to make a ton of mistakes in the game that perhaps then I could avoid in this fall, you know? But yeah, it's been a blast. It's been a real blast. Phil, what would you like to do to you to play this? Yeah, it's a little great in there. You got a dog. Yeah, when I told Phil was, when I, when I last played video games, it was before the era when people filmed themselves playing video games, you can get this dog. You can pet the dog. You can call the dog. It has all these different commands. Yeah, the dog's a new feature in this one, the sequel to the first one. He can eat tracks blood, it can look for tracks for you. It's very, very helpful. So you kind of oversee this reserve in North American landscape called New Laurentia. I jump a lot. This is Randall actually hunting. I jump a lot more in the game than I do, and I'm ordinarily hunting. There's, there's, there's, I fell to my death several times too. There's all kinds of wildlife. You can how you got white, tell me what all Turks. Oh yeah, yeah, Turks. The biggest thing that I like about the game, which is, which I think is the most interesting is the herd management. So each animal has come like a fitness level. So you can kind of determine the health of the animal and the age of the animal. And the the herd size and and sort of health will change depending on what kind of animals that you kill and you harvest. And certain animals will grow throughout the years of of playing and the years are condensed into sort of smaller time time periods. But you'll see like the landscape and the herd sizes and herd health change depending on how you're hunting. And like if you're only shooting trophy bucks, it'll look a lot different than if you're shooting kind of the younger animals or stuff like that. Yeah. So this dude, this dude we wield in the red dot shotgun. He's hunting Turks. Yeah, that's me. Yeah, that's that's the candle. You can see you can see my shop placement there. Yeah, so this is the heart. This is the white. It's not ideal. Yeah, it shows you the all the in the internal organs of the animal and sort of like where your shop placement was totally missed his head. Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. Exactly. The rope dragger I can't see his beard. I don't know. It says it was a hundred percent flesh. No spurs. Oh, there's female female. Oh, poacher. Yeah, but oh. Yeah, it's a really gorgeous landscape. The one thing I liked about it as sounds like that. guys the sound design. They're sort of different biomes, depending on where you are in the area. So the swampy area sounds a lot different than sort of like the alpine hunting and and and and stuff like that. And I've been having a lot of fun. The you can hear in your headphones, the direction of the animal. So if you hear something, yeah, if you hear something break, like a twig break or something. I don't know. He's one of the entities me to all these characters. I was I was less interested in them. But yeah, it's been great. And I'll do respect it to Yannis hearing us a well, a far off bugle in this game sounds a lot better than than Yannis's far off bugle sound. Was that a grizzly bear? It was. Did you just shoot it? I shot that one a bunch of times. So we're if for those of you who are only listening, we're watching a video of Randall and I playing the game. And you can watch the whole 15 minute video on the media. I fall to death. Well, do you guys because you guys are big box hunter fans? Yeah, it's just more fun than big box hunter. I mean, it's got to be it's it's way more absorbing way more immersive. Yeah, truck. Oh, okay. Now the truck was fun. Keep it on the road. Well, I I crashed the truck. I've I did a lot of things in this game that I don't do in real life. Phil, why is the camera quality so dang good there? It's better than we have in the studio. Shout out to developer nine nine rocks games. It's really why to fill in like triple HD. I that's that's in my office. I film that in my office. Here's Randall driving the truck into. He's running that snorkel deal on his truck like this from New Zealand. What I really enjoyed the most about this is is getting up in the morning and drinking like coffee and and Sydney asking me Sydney asking me what I had to do today. And I said, Phil and I have the side project going on. We need to make this video. And that's still like so pretty. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like it's back in its back. Phil's way better. Phil's way better video. Here's a Phil's trophy room is going to be incredible. Yeah. Here's here. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, Phil's hit him again. Give him a good. Oh, it's his own life. Yeah. Phil's really good at this game. Another six five. Oh, yeah. If you want to see the entire journey of Randall, I'm playing. And guess what? There's going to be two more videos. So there's a North American area in this game. There's also a whole African biome with a bunch of different African animals. Yeah, it feels taken me to Africa. That's right. So check out the Meteor Clips channel. If you want to see us in New, New Laurentia in way of the 102. And then next month, you'll see us in their African biome. I noticed Phil heart shoot a big whitetail there and it even did a big death kick. Yeah, I had that hump off you want to see. It's good stuff. A couple of corrections real quick. Your news. Is this your news? Sorry, I feel a play a little bit. Yeah. You know what? We'll just give it today. How about that? No, let's give it. No, answer. Okay. Um, guy wrote in. So we did a, we did a meat eater sheds episode on our family fish shack up in Alaska. And a guy wrote in that I had some and I felt like I looked this up online. I'm wrong or he's wrong. Okay. Well, we got to ask the camera guy, but but either way, there's a scene where there's a couple American flags put up in our outhouse. And I want to like, I found those weirdly. I found those floating in the ocean. Oh, I like it in rescue them. And then looked up how I'm supposed to put them to hang them that way. And I screwed it up. Hmm. So how they supposed to be? So and this isn't something where the camera's like, that's what I got. So if there's a picture of the bill and sort of short, I don't know. A guy writes in Logan Hanson. No, because the the hand sanitizer is where it belongs. Oh, he said, I noticed something I couldn't brush past I even went back to make sure I saw it correctly in the outhouse of the fish shack episode of needy to sheds. The American flags are hanging with the union portion, the stars to the viewers right hand side. If this is due to camera flip process that I sand corrected, but if not, we need to correct this detail. No, the slope of the hill makes it seem like it's definitely no, it's right. I'm wrong. I'm going to fix that Prano. See, we looked it up. And let's have some problem with the other side of those. No, there's not flag code states US flag code when displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flags own right. That is the observers left. Okay. So you know, well, no, I apologize to America. And I'm going to and thanks to this guy for pointing that out. And I'll be fixing those quick. And I'm trying to get like points, points redemption points by pointing out, I rescue those from the ocean. I have flag in my office right now, it's hung just like that. So much flip that around. Geez. Easy way to remember, just be red right. The red side goes on the right. Yeah, you can remember that from marine navigation, red right returning, red right flag. So that's first correction. Second one, over the last few months, we mentioned that we were unaware of the right to hunt and fish being used in legit legal proceedings. In episode nine, Nicholas Rodriguez writes in episode 943, Steve mentioned Rhode Island as one of the states where he suspected a more radical animal rights agenda would be tested as opposed to Colorado or somewhere else. I want to share a little context about my state. Rhode Island and California are the only two states whose constitutions explicitly protect the right to fish, but not the right to hunt. In 2008, a commercial fisherman challenged Rhode Island's fishing license restrictions, arguing they violated constitutional rights. This is Riley versus Rhode Island Department of Environmental Management. Our Supreme Court upheld the restrictions reasoning that the constitutional right belongs to the public collectively, rather than granting individual commercial fishermen unrestricted access. The court also emphasized the state's authority and responsibility to conserve fisheries. Sign Nick behind enemy lines in Rhode Island. So that's just interesting. We thought North Carolina's deal this year was kind of one of the first ones. Yeah, Rhode Island. But this, but point out that in this case, someone, I want to very quickly frame up what we're talking about is roughly half of the states in the country have a constitutional right to hunt and fish. Apparently, there's two of the constitutional right to fish. And I was questioning, when does that right ever, ever leveraged legally to affect change? He's kind of got a he's he's got an example, but in some ways, it's a non example, because here's an individual trying to use it unsuccessfully. I'm interested in a situation where a piece of legislation comes up that would infringe on one's right to hunt and fish. And then some lawyer, some attorney would point out, hey, this violates my constitutional right to hunt and fish. Therefore, I would like to see this corrected and have that be or the piece of legislation proposed legislation would be dismissed as unconstitutional, because it infringed on one's constitutional right to hunt and fish. Still, thanks for sending. Yeah, this is an example, the the analog would be some guy yelled, fire in a crowded theater. And then the court said, actually, that's not protected speech. Yeah. Good job, though, Rhode Island, dude. Finally, our third correction. Last week, we were talking with Melanie Thornton, TRCP about the Colorado River. And we mentioned how Las Vegas recycles water and gets rid of grass. So Tor Leonard, TORR, which is kind of wondering about the origin of that name. He writes in when Steve asked about whether removing grass in Las Vegas was required by law, the guest said she thought is voluntary. But Nevada passed a law in 2021 requiring businesses, apartments complexes, apartment complexes, HOAs, other properties to remove decorative grass that serves no practical purpose by the end of 2026. Homeowner's private lawns are generally exempt. Just clarification. Remove the grass that serves no purpose. I like it. Yeah, I just wonder how you go like, well, no mind does. Yeah. I don't want to do a whole show on that, but but but I wonder about that. What that means exactly. If you go like, no, no, no, I might use oxygen. I go out there and I lay down on it. It serves a purpose. I'll just be curious more. We don't need to follow up on it. Okay. So those three just become one of those things that on this show, one of the many things on this show that never dies. Peter out. Yeah. Um, we'll, uh, we'll send out, we got a vote on the best one. Send out a military camera to whoever's the best flag flags 100% flagged motion on flags. You get what you want for Katie flags, Rhode Island matters here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyone in the room, even fill votes. Yeah, the flags. All right, the flags have it. Thanks Logan. We good? Okay, jumping over. This is not one of those things, Katie. You like that one? One of the better. Okay, thanks, Katie. Only only, only, only fence Katie. Do you know it? Can I tell you how I know about you and why you're here? I'm so curious. Yes. You want to know how I know about you and why you're here? Yes. Not why you're here. But what? Yeah, how I know about you? My, I've had the same literary litter. I can't say the word. I've had the same literary agent for over 20 years. he brought you to my attention. He thinks you're a very good writer. - I love to hear it. - And he sort of wanted me to, he sort of wanted me to like, he didn't say this, but he kind of wanted me to suss you out. - Okay. - 'Cause he thinks you're really, he thinks you're a great writer. - I appreciate that so much. - But you make, but you tell people about your Instagram page. - All right, Instagram page only fins Katie. I love a good pun. - I essentially started this Instagram page now 63 days ago or so under the guise of fishing every day until I can quit my job and get paid to fish. It started as just kind of holding myself accountable to get out and fish every day and learn how to fish. I had not fished really until maybe, I'll say like February of this year. I went up in Kern and Sequoia and fell in love with trout fishing. Got super addicted. I was just using a Zebco push button rod in real combo. - Randall knows what those are called. Spin cast. - There you go. - Spin cast, so there you go. Anyways, fell in love with it. My current day job, you're staring at a screen all day, every day I've always loved nature hiking and camping. Fishing was just another thing to add to the outdoors arsenal that I love. Anyways, started this account. It started with me just like learning in front of the public how to fish, putting myself out there, engaging. I don't have anyone within my family or friend group that fishes. I didn't have anyone to go to to like guide me on how to fish. - Did you live in LA? - I do live in LA, who best placed a fish, best placed a learn out of fish, right? But how did fish come on your radar? - Camping, so current county, current river is this beautiful river that runs through Sequoia. I like to like in it to the better version of Tahoe or the less explored version of Tahoe. People hate when I say that, but very undiscovered pristine rainbow trout fishing there. - Okay. - I was just like, why not? Why not? I love camping already. Let me just buy a cheap $30 Zebco and try my hand out fishing, fell in love with it. It was awesome. Caught a bunch of rainbow trout, did you catch and cook? Probably went back again, maybe like two weeks later. And then again, like the month after that. And then I was like, okay, there's something that I love here. Let me upgrade from the Zebco, let me explore the ocean. I mean, I'm from LA and the ocean's been there. My fingertips prefer ever, but had never even tried saltwater fishing. So then I was like, I need to get my hands on a saltwater, set up and get out there. Oh my God, surf casting is, there's no joke. I swear the people who surf cast know they're never gonna catch anything, but whatever. - Yeah, 'cause you fish a lot of, I don't want to be mean about it. It's not mean that you fish a lot of not great fish and spots. - Because part of your deal is like, you're just gonna fish. - Exactly. - And you're in LA and if it's a drainage canal, if it's a crazy part pond, it's like, if it's water, you're gonna fish it. - 100%. I mean, there's only so much, I mean, yes, the ocean is there. I live in East Los Angeles, getting to the ocean. Can take two hours plus. I have a day job after work. There's only so many places I can go to fish. So yes, unfortunately, sometimes it is a drainage ditch. A lot of the times it is the LA River, which so many people will talk shit on and say, like, oh, it's so disgusting, you're fishing in there. Like, you're gonna get a disease. But you catch, but you catch like an enormous variety. - Oh yeah, it's insane. That's one of the things that people have loved to see is like, wow, that's all the fish that you can find in the LA River, whatever weird ditch I'm in. They're like, there's no way that. - Like a lot of kind of fish. - Yeah, you catch fish I never heard of. - It's almost every fish I catch now at this point. Now I know a decent amount of what's local in the area, but that was such a discovery to me too, just like every fish I was catching was new to me. So getting to learn about all the different species was awesome. But yeah, the LA River, I gotta show you that. - Oh yes. - You caught a first scorpion fish and landed in the emergency room. - Oh man, yeah, that was a good time. That was a good learning experience in front of the internet. Yeah, I did. I was going after spotted Bay Bass and ended up reeling in a California scorpion fish, also commonly known as a skull bin. I thought it was just a normal rock fish, and this was day seven of fishing every day. And went to unhook it. And this is me being ignorant. Touched the fish right on the dorsal fin and several places stung me like, I think it was like five times in my finger. And I was alone fishing. I didn't know what was how. I was just like, oh, I was just fine. Whatever my finger hurts kept fishing. And then I was like, oh shit. Something's traveling up my elbow. Something's traveling up my entire arm. What's going on? Went on the internet and was like, oh my God, that was a venomous fish. Didn't, I was alone, didn't know what to do. Went to urgent care. They didn't know what to do with me. They were like, we don't know what you're supposed to do with this. So they sent me to the ER, which was just kind of hilarious. - All that's what I wound up there, yeah. - Yeah, they had to take x-rays of my finger because they were like spines still within my finger. I honestly think there's still one image. - It doesn't act right yet. - Yeah, yeah. She was like, you could have permanent nerve damage. Who knows? Anyways, amazing learning experience and lesson for me to obviously do your research before you touch any fish. - Whether your season's already open or you're still counting down the days, the meat-eater store has what you need to get ready. We're talking first light, FHF, SIGSHOWER, MULTRIE, FELPS, the brands we actually run in the field, plus brand new teas, hoodies, and hats that just dropped with more drop in every month. Also, check out our new meat-eater grocery game bags. They got reflective trim on them, so you can keep working after dark and find your bags even if you got them hanging way up in the tree in the middle of the night. And once you've got meat in the cooler, we've got you covered there too. Seasonings, cookbooks, and knives to cook up everything you bring home to check it all out head to themeaterstore.com. - What's the biggest fish you cause so far? - You catch a lot of, with all due respect, you catch a lot of interesting little small fish out of, right, but have you caught some hogs out there? - Oh my god, what I would consider a hog is probably nothing to all of you guys. I think the biggest fish I've caught at this point was within the LA aqueduct, which is another not so pretty destination to be fishing. But I caught a channel cat that was 11 pounds. - Oh, no, okay, that's a good chance. - Opera, yeah, that's a hog. - But yeah, my audience affectionately calls me the queen of the dinks and I have come to be more than okay with that and that's okay. - What, when you say that make, like, what in your mind does it mean to make a living fishing? - So when I started this account, I had no idea 'cause I was like, dude, you see these people catching actual hogs and they're real anglers. I knew I would never be that, and I'm like, dude, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, how am I gonna make them living fishing every day? It's just kind of a joke of like I just don't wanna stop looking at my computer screen all the time. And then the channel's kind of evolved and this kind of circles back to like original just question of like writing and everything. But as the channel evolved, like if you start on day one and go to the most recent video that I posted for me fishing Montana the other day, it's just content-wise has drastically changed to where I've kind of like found myself where I can fit within the fishing community and it is just like a lot of humility, a lot of learning. But also, it's turned into almost like this like philosophical travel history science channel disguised as a fishing channel. - Yes, yes. - I'm using fishing as the entry point into culture history, a lot of pop culture references that I just love to inject in there too just because it's something that's so easy for people to relate to. But it's almost turned into this like very many educational platform which I love. - Yeah, you get into space exploration, gentrification, different videos, gentrification, like existential issues. The impending doom of artificial intelligence all tied into like 90 second fishing videos. - Oh my God, yeah. - I think that's why my agent thinks you're a good writer. You have a good line too. You talked about that it was a really gloomy day and you caught a blue gill and he said he had all the colors he could get his fins on and like good lines. - Yeah, I mean, I've always, I love reading, I love writing originally when I was in like [BLANK_AUDIO] school, I thought I was going to be a journalist, have always had a strong passion. And then my, my actual nine to five job is within the creative industry, not writing. Um, but it's just like a skill set that I've always loved, but I've never had any sort of like reason to express or utilize so much. And then this account just like slowly started to evolve into that. I was like, wow, I love this. This is turning into like everything that I truly love into like this little, little perfect, perfectly packaged thing. It's like the fishing, the outdoors, science, history, writing, um, and being creative. It's been awesome. There's a lot of people watching because you're in some crowded spaces. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What's your tackle shop? Like you throw it at your tackle shop now and then, um, yes, I have to do it. I have to shout him out. Martin, he's, um, Martin's fishing and tackle and East L.A. Funny enough, the only reason I found out about his tackle shop is I was like in Marina Del Rey pulling up to a harbor and was like, can I even fish this harbor? And he pulled up and I saw maybe he had like 50 rods in his van. And I was like, I got it. Got to pick this guy's brain. Like, what's up with this fishing spot? He must get a discount on rods. It was, I just wanted to know about the fishing spot, man. Um, and then he was just like, oh, yeah, dude, you got to hit up my spot. Like I'm riding East L.A. He had no idea who I was. Um, and at the time, I think I was maybe on like day 10 of fishing every day. And went to his shop and just he's such, he's such a homie. Um, gave me so much info. At the time, this is actually before, this was day six. I know this because day seven is when I got stung by the scorpion fish. Um, I was really on the hunt for a spotted baby bass. I'd heard so much about how the fight is awesome. They get massive, um, in parts of Marina Del Rey, which is close to, uh, my office. So it was easy to jet over there after work. Um, had been on the hunt for one. Couldn't land when they kept taking me under the rock. So I was like, dude, what am I doing wrong? Like, what is going on? So I was telling him about my, my journey to catch a spotted baby bass. And he gave me all these tips. He's like, bro, you're using the wrong bait. You need to be using these jig heads. What are you doing? He, he set it up. He set me up. I went back to that spot, got stung by the scorpion fish because I caught the scorpion fish on his set up, went to the hospital and immediately after getting the ER went back to the fishing spot, got a baby literally like fishing with my little hospital band on. And yes, I landed. It was, it was, it was, it was big for me. I think it's big for that area too. Please someone say that I'm right. But and say that I actually caught a big fish. It was, yeah, it's awesome. And now, now I like, dude, now the spot is I can slay up in there. They're, they're so fun to catch. They're awesome. One of the, one of the first, one of your pieces I watched, what made me laugh is, you know, like to turn like fighting a fish. So when you reel a fish, you dub in the sound of gunfire. I do. To make, to kind of like amplify the fight. Yeah. Yeah. Some people hate it. Like machine gunfire. Yeah. Yeah. It's a battle. You're battling the fish. Yeah, and you're good about reporting on what tackle you're using. Yes. Yeah. I feel like if I'm learning and other people want to know and want to learn with me, I got to give the free, free information. You know, you don't, so you don't cat, you don't cook these fish up ever. I've done a catch and cook once on my channel. This is when I was, I mean, like yet, never even mind making a video. Like just at home for dinner. You don't cook fish. Oh no, I love fish. But dude, eating fish out of L.A. is a little gnarly. So like the blue gill, for instance. Yeah. You just, sorry, I'm not going to eat a blue gill out of that. No, no, no, no. If you were to actually see that little lake, that beautiful lake, no shade to this lake, but it's pretty dirty. You don't want to be eating there. Even like the ocean water within the L.A. area. One of the things I love about fishing is so much that I've learned. But in the 70s, a bunch of DDT barrels were dumped in between Catalina Island and Palace Verities. And they still to this day are leaking out chemicals in the fish that get tested there. Just have like gnarly amounts of it within them. And there's fishing, eating, what do you call it? Can some kinds of visories? Yes. All right, attention to those things. You know, it'll say like you can have one yellowfin croaker a week technically. Like and dude, I'm no shade. Like tons of people, 90% of the time I'm out fishing in the ocean. A lot of people are bringing them home and eating them. I want to say that eventually I will. I think it's just maybe in the ocean. Specifically, I haven't felt like I've caught something worthy of like taking home and eating. Like it'll be some, you know, queen of the dinks. I'm catching small guys that I'm like, okay, yeah, technically I could bring this home and eat it, but it's not that much. Let me send you off to get bigger and hopefully you're waiting for me when you're bigger. So someday you might catch the queen mother of all eating fish and cook it up totally, but yeah, I mean, I've done I don't really care. It doesn't matter me. No, I've done up in further north in like Moro Bay area. It's called Moss Landing. I caught two beautiful, beautiful chunky black surf perch and I did a catch and cook with those guys because that water is a bit cleaner. And then when I've done the fishing and the current river for the rainbow trout, I've did everything that I catch there. I eat good. I got a question. It's going to, you're going to roll your eyes. I got to ask. Okay. When you're running around LA, like at night, in weird ass places, are you having, and I know you bring someone with you, but are you having like crazy run-ins? I mean, do you ever feel like, man, I'm going to wind up getting like, like a, a costed, abducted, like some shit's going to happen to me if I keep doing this. It's been yeah, that's like so many people are concerned for my like, that's why that's why I said you're going to roll your eyes when I ask. I swear I didn't roll my eyes. LA has a very valid stereotype of being sketchy for sure. Yeah, but you're going, it's not just, you're going to wear, if I was a sketchy dude, I'm like, I'm going to set up shop down along this canal. It's just, I mean, it's, it's, you head on a swivel, you got to, you got to be super aware of your surroundings. Specifically, like parts, the most, I think people get really concerned when I'm in the LA river under freeways fishing. Yeah, nice. Yes, valid, but dude, honestly, like the first time I fished under the freeway at the LA river, a homeless guy was fishing there, like next to me, and he was going for carpal. He had, he just had the fishing line and hooks. We actually exchanged, he was handlining. We exchanged tackle. He was giving me all his carp tips. He was, I was giving him hooks. Okay. So you got that little camaraderie. We have a little camaraderie. I've never, there've definitely been times where it'll, it just starts, you just get a vibe and you're like, it's time to wrap up. It's time to go to my fishing spot. Or just, it's time to go home. Like it's 2 a.m. What are you doing under this freeway? So, so you, so I'm not crazy to bring it up, but you don't, you haven't yet had a, like it was a scorpion fish that put you in the emergency room, not another canal, not another canal. Not yet. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen. I tried to be, yes, I know I'm fishing some sketchy areas, but dude, you just got it, I mean, that's like anywhere you are, like be aware of your surroundings. Do you ever have this last, this is the last, like, angle I'm going to take into this subject? Yeah. Are there spots? Like, let's take night fishing. Okay. Are there spots where you'd say, I'd love to night fish that, but no way. Oh my god, yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah. That's what I should ask for first place. So there are spots you'd like to hit. Yes. You would need a security detail. Yes. So then go ahead. Yes. I don't know if anyone's heard of McArthur Park. Yeah. That's the red, that's the under the bridge park. That's the heroin park. They made famous by Red Hat Chili. There's good water there. Dude, there's, I, I see videos of people fishing it during the day though. I'm catching massive carp in there. And I'm like, bro, I got to hit that up, but it is definitely sketchy. Their cities trying to do their part to clean it up, but like you don't even want to day fish it. It's not worth a heroin, but you would, you day fish it, but you wouldn't night fish it. Yes. I really want to, I want to day fish it pretty badly, but I got it. Yeah. Yeah. I want to. Okay. It's a little sketchy. What's the, what's the thing you think you like? What's the most surprising thing you've learned about fishing in fishermen? Surprising? Fishing and/or fishermen. Dude, it's, it's not surprising. It's not even surprising. Like I never thought that fishing was easy, but dude, it's fucking hard. Like the, the amount of like resilience. Maybe this is just LA fishing, but like resilience you have to have to just like find the spot that's not super pressured, because there's only so many freshwater spots within the city. It's just like, maybe that's the most surprising thing is just like finding a spot that's going to be like a hundred any hole in juicy and not overfished and not super pressured. That's been, that's been hard and surprising. But at the same time, the other side of the coin is what's also been surprising in a good way is like, there actually are a lot of places to fish in LA. I feel like I'm rediscovering the city. I'm born and raised in LA, but I feel like I'm rediscovering the city and this completely different lens and it's turned into like my account, I feel like for all the LA content has turned into kind of this love letter to the city in a way. It's so cool that I'm like, dude, why would I ever have been under the 405 freeway in this ditch? Yeah, why would you ever have that reason? But here I am and now I'm like learning about the LA River and like how important it actually is and like there's actually 200 different bird species that live in this like weird little ditch and like however many different fish and it's like thriving ecosystem and like learning the history about why it is now this like concrete channel that it is now. But I guess that's like this other surprising thing is like just rediscovering the city and getting to explore these areas that even maybe I have been before but rediscovering it within the fishing lens has been so cool. I mean, dude, the Santa Monica Pier have been there maybe like four times in my life even though I've been in LA and have always had like a very bad connotation with it 'cause it's just like hell. But not big. No, I mean, it's an awesome fishing spot. It's also hell because of how many people are there but it's a vibe, it's a vibe. I don't know if I need to fish there more than that a couple times a year because of what you have to go through to get to the end of the pier but yeah, it's been awesome just like rediscovering all these places. Do you have a good day count at which if you're not making a living fishing, you quit? No, I'm so stubborn. What would you hit day four thousand? I mean, fingers crossed that doesn't have to happen but dude, I want to say I'm so stubborn. I want to say that like no. And if anything like fishing is so, I'm saying this from someone who has not been doing it that often but it's so ingrained in my life now that I'm like, I don't do like it's just, I'm gonna be fishing forever. It's so addicting. Well, what did you, was it, like if you had to rate just the whole experience of fishing with Corey on a sliding scale of one to 10. 10 being. Just the whole package like a Disney movie how perfect it was. It was. Dude, it honestly was. It was a brand new experience of Corey. Corey's a 10. Like a 10? Dude, listen, listen, no, I got to know I have to say it. When we first talked about where we were gonna be fishing Corey's like, we're like trying to brainstorm what's gonna make sense 'cause he's, we're like dude, the content is like you're fishing in all these urban, weird spots. That's not Montana. And he's like, but maybe there's a spot, there's a spot under a bridge. So it's kind of this urban feel. Well, try that. Does any bridge, I mean, it's like a bridge that that bridge connects Seattle and Chicago. I've, I didn't, I haven't had my chance to do my research on where we were fishing, dude. That bridge is very like a 90 corridor. All right, all right, all right. We were there. Yeah, we, we were there and I started with my spinning setup and I don't know, it was like my, maybe my like fifth cast or something caught a whitey and I was just like, bro, yeah. On a spinning run. What do you have here? What was, what was you using? I was using a Salamander Panther Martin spinner. Oh, that was all her, her decision on the lure. It's a good choice. Yeah, well, and the day. So when I arrived, I've got, I got here on Friday and Saturday, Sunday, I didn't have Cory to help me. I just went out and fish Saturday and Sunday, freezing. By the way, I'm going from like 90 degree weather in LA to like 30 degree weather again, have never fished in snow or any weather below, maybe like 50 degrees or something, but had my waiters for the first time, got into the lower Madison, fish that and then fish the Gallatin. And I caught a brown trout, was happy. I was, hell yeah. And you got to watch the video, dude, it's up. Yeah, caught a little brown trout, was getting some bites in the lower Madison, but couldn't land anything and then switch over to the Gallatin because it was just like, I don't know, this spot just. - But you were freezing your ass too. - Oh God, yeah, but I was fished, I fished until I think like 7 p.m. both nights, I was, my feet were numb. I was scared. And then, how many fish you guys catch yesterday? How many whitefish? - I mean, you lost count. - I did lose count, but. - Did he get you on the fly pole at all? - Dude, yeah, he did. He did. I started with the spinner and then the spinning rod and once I caught with the spinning rod, I was like, I've accomplished that, fine, we'll fly fish, yeah. And that's, yeah. - You picked it up super fast. - He's a professional. Did he tell you that? - I've taught a lot of people out of fly fish, but you were roll casting like a pro. - I think he's just saying that. - It's fucking hard, dude. Compared to just coming from like, yeah, having to get out of the like, the motion of, you just cast totally different. It's hard to like snap out of how you normally cast a spinning rod. - Any dudes camping under that bridge? - No. - No one can't put a graffiti. - A lot of positive graffiti. - No, no. - Tell me about that. - No. - No, I didn't see what you guys went and saw was everywhere. - Oh no, we were just cracking up. There was like a Pokemon graffiti thing and it's just within my content, whenever I catch a new fish, I'm like added to the Poke Decks. It's just like a thing, you know? Yeah. (everyone laughs) - I love it. - All right. - That's good, though. He's gonna smoke these white fish up. - They're smoking right now. - Hell yeah. - Yeah. - As we sit here, they should be ready for lunch after this. - I think we caught six. - That's a good smoke fish. That's a very good smoke fish. - Oh, I'm so excited. Yeah, this was my first time catching a white. I got to add it to the Poke Decks. But yeah, it was awesome. - That's a good need of fish, too. - Yeah. - Browns, rainbows. Those are fish out of a barrel. Those aren't native fish. They're not from here. - Yeah, I was read, they're introduced by Europe. - No, suckers. White fish is good native fish. - Most lamos in the world get their meat at the grocery store but we prefer to pack ours out of the field. That's why we made the meat eater grocery bags. Ultra lightweight, breathable nylon game bags that cool your meat fast and keep it clean from the field to the cooler. With reflective print and features to help you find your game bags in the dark meaning like reflective stuff so your flashlight shines off it even when you gotta hang them way up in a tree. We have two sets, okay? We got sets for whether you're packing out a deer or whether you're packing out an elk or moose. And they're reusable season after season. I've had some of mine for many years. I just, I give them a good rinse, run 'em through my wash machine, hang 'em up to dry. These are your grocery bags. These are a thinkin' man's grocery bags. Head over to the meateaterstore.com and get yourself a brand new set of excellent game bags for this common season. - Speaking of fish, overspend some new hearts market report on pan fish. - Here's how Katie can try to make a living. - Oh yeah, the commercial sales angle. - Yep. - Genuine walleye canal flays or something. You know, you're on little business. - I bet they're good. - For this week's market report, we are looking at pan fish prices, specifically the big three pan fish. Blue-gill, crappy, and perch. I will start with blue-gill. Blue-gill are one of the most farmed fish in America, but very few of those farmed blue-gill are raised for their meat, at least for human consumption. The USDA estimates that 98% of commercial blue-gill revenue comes from selling juvenile fish that are used to stock private pond, both as a forage fish and a game fish. So there's a lot of blue-gill raised here by folks, but very few of them get eaten by humans. It is uncommon for them to be raised for direct human consumption because they are expensive to feed and don't grow as fast as other farmed fish. The wild caught blue-gill. - Don't look at so much this good. - We got a lot, the wild caught blue-gill that do hit the market are largely coming from the Great Lakes, specifically Lake Erie, from anglers, that's my hand actually. - Wow, let's see that way back in my hatchery days. - This is big hand, huh? - If you go to Wikipedia and look at blue-gill. - It's just small fish right there. - It's not like an eight-inch blue-gill. - If you go to Wikipedia, if you guys-- - Oh, that was a good joke. - If you go to Wikipedia and look at blue-gill, you'll see my picture on there, that's my hand. - Really? - Did you do that? - No, because I worked for the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and so all my photos I would take when I worked for them were owned by them and when they're owned by the US Fish and Wildlife Service to public domain, so they end up all over Wikipedia. So I have like, I don't know, dozens of fishing pictures on Wikipedia, this being one of them. - Oh. - So a lot of the wild caught blue-gill that hit the market come from Lake Erie, it's from anglers from both sides of the border. The American South also has a small wild caught blue-gill market, but it seems like those fish largely come from private ponds. The commercial licenses for Lake Erie are pretty affordable for most Great Lakes states. It's less than a couple hundred dollars to legally net and sell fish, and in some places, the blue-gill can be one of those fish. As for the prices, I break all these fish down into two groups. One is your local markets, those are like farmers markets, local grocery stores, craigslist, and then there's your online retail. These are the large seafood distributors who ship frozen meat to your front door. They're the same places that will sell you crayfish and tilapia and can't fish and crabs. So for local market prices right now in the United States, you're looking at about $18 per pound. For online retail, it's for flays. For flays. Yes, online retail, $35 per pound. Here's an example, ocean side seafood, sells wild-caught blue-gill flays that are skin-on and bones off for $40 per pound. That is an expensive fish flay, man. Very expensive. They say it takes 15 to 20 flays to make a pound, so that's about $2.25 per flay. They have 53 reviews for an average of 4.3 stars, so people are generally pretty satisfied. Do you mind if I read a quick little bit of that description? I'm going to finish here my blue-gill thought, and then it's on you. Prices are now about double what they were 15 years ago. The price increase has outpaced most high-end seafood. One online vendor labels them as, quote, "a seasonal and nostalgic luxury item." So that's how the seller's view blue-gill. It's a seasonal and nostalgic luxury item. 40 bucks a pound. 40 dollars a pound and that's bones off skin-on. What do you got from the description? Wow, this was noticed, and they call it. With a mild, slightly sweet flavor and tender texture, it says it all. 40 bucks a pound. 40 dollars a pound. Phil, could you click over to the-- This is a screen gap. What are you wondering? I wanted to see the dish that they made. I just want to get a better look at it. Sprod Gill, do you want to look at this? I wanted to get a better look at it. I understand. Can I say it one more time? 40 bucks a pound. All right, next, let's look at croppy. Similar to blue-gill, most croppy sold as food are wild caught. According to the USDA records that I found, there are 65 registered croppy ponds in the USA. Croppy farms in the USA. Most of them are in northern states, which surprised me. In my head, that'd be like, oh, yeah, Alabama, Texas, Georgia. They got a croppy ponds. It's actually like New York, Minnesota, Wisconsin. Yankees, man, Yankees, they're catchin' all of them croppy. So of the 65 croppy farms, only seven of them raise them to be food size. All the rest, just like the blue-gills, they're solely sold as juveniles to stock private ponds. The source of those wild caught croppy has recently fluctuated up until this year. Anglers on Lake Champlain in Vermont could sell the croppy that they'd catch with a rod and a reel. And these croppy made up the majority of the wild caught fish from American waters. But Vermont recently changed their regulations to outlaw this practice now. If you want to read about America's croppy market and how it used to be on Lake Champlain, go read Pat Durkin's article on the meaty.com called Cash for Croppy. So previous to this year, though, there were a lot of croppy coming out of Lake Champlain that were largely sold in Vermont and New York. Now, most of our wild caught croppy market is made up of fish from the Canada side of the Great Lakes and tribal waters in the United States. All right, here's the price breakdown. Local markets, you're looking at $22 per pound and online retail is $34 per pound. So the local markets are slightly more expensive than blue-gill because it's harder to find local fish. And the online markets are cheaper than blue-gill because Canadian anglers can satisfy the market. This is from Walleye Direct. Walleye Direct sells wild caught Canadian croppy in five-pound batches for $169, which is $34 per pound. They say you get nine to 16 fillets per pound, which comes out to about $2.60 per fillet. Their croppy listing has 31 reviews for an average of 4.7 stars. What do you think of that dish, Randall? I like it. I was about to say that's a nice-sized dish photo. Now, for the sake of me, I'm glad to see it because I agree. Interesting to see that the croppy flays are less expensive than blue-gill flays. My gripe with croppy flays being that they're too delicate. They are. And they have a structure that absorbs too much oil. I find. Now, online retailers, again, remember, these are largely coming from Canadian waters. Online retailers really lean into the candidate aspect for marketing, advertising that their croppies come from the cold, clear Northern waters. So they have less of a muddy taste than our disgusting American croppies. I would tell Matt to talk to you this, man. Under how it tastes, tastes like it just came out of the lake, period. Yeah. And then they also describe it quite similar to blue-gills. But this is your finest work, I don't know how to point out. But $40 a pound. $40 a pound for blue-gills. Last one, let's talk about yellow perch. Unlike blue-gill and croppy, the perch market is heavily subsidized with farmed fish. Of the USDA registered 83 perch farms, half of them raise the fish to be food size. This is a result of them being a greater demand for perch fillets than blue-gill or croppy. So remember, with the croppy with 7 of 60 something, this one is like 40 out of 83 of the perch farms are selling their perch for food. The wild caught market is dominated by the Great Lakes, specifically the Canadian side of Lake Erie. And the buyers are located close by. It's estimated that 70% of all yellow perch sales in the United States occur within 50 miles of a Great Lake. This is from a study I found back in the late '90s, I believe. Those would be places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Buffalo, Toledo, Green Bay, Grand Rapids, Rochester, Akron, South Bend, Duluth, and Erie. Those cities are basically the whole perch economy. And I think it's something we now need to refer to as the Perch Belt of America. That's a 70% of our perch are being sold, the Perch Belt. One seafood distributor estimates that the Perch Belt eats about 70 million pounds of perch annually. Perch is just the quintessential fish fry fish in that region. For our Southern listeners, it'd be like, a catfish to them is a perch to folks in that part of the country. It's like it's a fish that it was just made to be consumed in large numbers. If you were to go to a cafe and they had fried fish on the menu, you'd expect it to be perched in that area. If someone who can't be smelt or perched. If there was a bar that had fish fry Friday night, it's going to be smelt or perched. If you lived in that area and someone invited you over for a fish fry, you would almost certainly have perched there. All right, so price-wise, local markets around the Great Lakes region, you're looking at about $20 per pound. Online retail is $35 per pound. Farm fresh express sells them for $30 per pound. All of their perch come from Lake Erie. They say you get six to nine fillets per pound. So that comes out to be about $4 per fillet. God, you can't afford not to fish. Here's a summary for you. For the listeners who are trying to justify gas money and bait and new gear, according to the market, panfish per pound are more valuable than walleye, king salmon, and dungeon-ish crabs, taking average current prices into account. The keeper bluegill is worth about $4.50, a keeper crappy is worth $5.20 and a keeper perch is worth $8. And if you were to have a $25 panfish limit, a mix of these three, you're looking at about $150 for the fish. Let's just some fine dining there. I have photos where there's $2,400 for the perch piled up on the ice. The market is strong right now. Wow, that was a finely crafted segment too. Dude, that was my God. Did you make that graphic? I asked in the screen shot of the journal. It looks very similar to your Spencer's orchard graphic. Yeah, unbelievable quality of the content. So $5 a bluegill, $5 a croppy, $8 a perch. That's what you're looking at today's prices. Unbelievable segment, thank you. Too bad the Academy Awards or something. I wish I could go back and prepare better for a video game segment. We could take another swing at that. In a month, this is unbelievably good segment. Thank you, thank you. Well, one of you guys said what I liked about it. Here's what I liked about it. This is something that, like this is close to my heart, so panfish. So to learn all this new stuff about something I already know well, it'd be like, if you did a report on my wife and you're like telling me stuff, I'm like, I didn't know that. Yeah, her favorite food is. Yeah, I'd be like, man, I didn't know all I had about her. That'd be a great report. Yeah. What would you get this cost? I would have put these prices like half of what they actually did. For a segment like that? No, no, no. Like the price of a keeper perch. What would you guess that would have cost? Oh, at least half of that, I would say. Yeah, if you said, hey, what's this perch worth on the market? I would have said, I probably would have come in at like that maybe it's a buck. A pound of bluegill. I would have guessed $15 a pound. Yeah, now those prices per fish, that's uncleaned also. Which I think is part of the market value. Like to pay somebody to clean a hundred bluegill. That's, you know, someone's spending a lot of time doing that. I don't think there's a machine pump in that out for them. When I was a kid, I was just forced to clean them. Yeah. I don't get paid to clean hard. You come home from school and have to play fish. It's terrible. I think there are fish play machines out that could do those. There's the Well, there's a machine that does great legs, whitefish beautifully. There's probably a perch machine. Yeah. There's a machine you run that flay through, flays it, pin bones it, skins it. Yeah. You're right, Seth. There's got to be a machine do in this. Oh, I would assume the price was baked into that though. Like I said, when I see that price, I'm like, that's because some poor someone's got a blue guild. Someone's got a blue guild. Yeah. Maybe. Okay. Ted Cruz, Senator Ted Cruz on Cormorance. This might be the first, I don't follow Ted Cruz too carefully. I don't think of him as a wildlife guy. Think again. It's going to be hard to follow up Spencer here, but you have any interesting graphics. No, dude. I didn't have a lot of time. We've been fishing. No. Ted Cruz, the guy that said Texas says 2% public land and it's 2% too much. Yeah. He's not a big public land guy whatsoever. I just don't think I'm as, I feel he's not an outdoorsman. Yeah. This was surprised to see him weigh in on wildlife, but when he weighed in on wildlife, it was to like, to kill a bunch of it. Right. Which is whatever. Let's hear the segment. Well, just you wait here. Just this last September, U.S. Senator's Ted Cruz of Texas and Katie Britt of Alabama introduced the Responsible Cormorant Management and Control Act of 2026. A companion bill, HR one, I'm sorry, 8195 was introduced in the house earlier this year by Representative Tim Wallberg of Michigan. And that was advanced by the House Natural Resource Committee, committee. That legislation would require the U.S. Department of the Interior to develop regional management plans for double-crested Cormorants. So why are these elected officials so worried about Cormorants? Well, the same reason he was just talking about. 'Cause we're getting extra official aquaculture soon. They're not as worried about the Cormorants. They're more worried about the aquaculture, agriculture operations, particularly the cat fish industry, as well as recreational fisher folk and fisheries biologists and how the rebounded population of double-crested Cormorants are and have been wreaking havoc on the fish and their fish farms. A recent study, 2021 study, so not that reason, out of Mississippi State University, found that in the Mississippi Delta region, one Cormorant can eat approximately one pound of fish per day. Wow. Commercial catfish. Well, how much does this weigh? They're pretty big birds. I don't know. That's a good question. They're way bigger than you think. 12 pounds. That's my guess. We're going. Oh, I bet they're less than that. Yeah, it's like like a pound of fish and his neck. Sorry to say commercial catfish make up 33% of a Kormorant's diet in the Mississippi Delta region. And during the winters of 16 17 and 17 18. Kormorant's consumed 1.2 to 1.6 million pounds of catfish or about 10.3 and 12 million catfish respectively. Kormorant depredation on commercial catfish farms industry wide results in the loss estimated of the range of 25.8 to 65.4 million dollars. Them suckers are can you edit out my earlier guess bill. Yeah, or dubbing or dubbing me going 2.6 to 5.5 pounds. Yeah, I'll take the time. So he's eating a pound of catfish. This says a double-crested Kormorant is 3 to 6 pounds. A bald eagle for comparison is 6 1/2 to 14. Wow, big wingspan big nose. I dove pretty deep and watched a lot of videos of Kormorants eating fish. It's pretty wild. I mean, they're swallowing huge fish. Just sucking them down ninja bird. Boy, what a fun pairing between the two stories. I know they're very similar. Here's a brief North American double-crested Kormorant timeline. Please. This is great. Is there a graph a graphic? No, I got nothing. Starting in the early settlement days and the 1800s early European explorers like Samuel Day, Champlain and naturalists like John James Audubon noted large native Kormorant colonies along North America's regional coasts. As westward westward settlement expanded humans frequently shot the birds viewing them as dirty, gluttonous and a threat to their fish stocks in the late 19th to early 20th centuries intense hunting and local persecution drove steep population declines. The birds were completely extropaded from certain areas such as parts of Massachusetts by the late 1800s. In the mid 20th century population suffered another major crash in the 50s and 60s with widespread use of DDT which caused eggshell thinning and breeding failures alongside losses from oil spills and other water contaminants. But since the 70s particularly 1972 double-crested Kormorants have been protected under the migratory bird treaty act populations have grown roughly 2.6% per year between 66 and 2019 doubling in some regions like the Great Lakes. And today the US Fish and Wildlife Service estimates there's between 870,000 to over 1 million double-crested Kormorants within the United States and Canada. So that's potentially a million pounds of fish per day. The Responsible Kormorant Management and Control Act of 2026 if passed in both the House and Senate would readress that 1972 amendment. The bill is still how there's a way to go before becoming to law but for now it represents a step towards science-based regional management of the double-crested Kormorant while still requiring Kormorant populations to remain at sustainable levels. This hope the hope here is this would better protect the fish resources that support commercial fisheries America's catfish industry as well as recreational anglers. This ties in to the new executive order on priorities around fishing where it talks about taking a greater look at predation of fish. That wasn't addressing aquaculture facilities but just wild fish. I like this. I like this. I don't think you want to knock them back to 1972 levels by any stretch but I'm not opposed at all to lowering Kormorant numbers in order to increase fisheries output at all. I'm hoping soon we might have a new pardon my plate episode Kormorant. They kill them in Canada. They already got a crushing programs on islands and stuff but I think it's real case by case. They can't possibly taste good. No, that's got to taste like eating a minute out of the middle bucket. There's a lot of hilarious recipes out there where you say like put the bird on a brick and light the brick on fire and throw the bird away and eat the brick. I don't know, I'd be curious though. So what more? I have this really funny recipe from this cookbook in 1965 but we can move on. When zebra mussels came into the Great Lakes, what kind of gave way at the ending? The zebra mussels. This ties into both y'all segments. There was a yellow perch crash in the northern Great Lakes in the 90s. I mean, just yellow perch perch stocks just plummeted. And a lot of people were signing blame and a lot of the blame was assigned to Kormorants. And I had some close friends that were involved in this prolonged predation study where they went out and netted thousands of yellow perch and put a little micro tag next to their dorsal fin. And then you wait a while and they would go to all of the Kormorant rookies looking further little tags to see how many of these yellow perch were getting digested and excreted out and Kormorant rookies. And the verdict was already out among fishermen in this area. They knew what the problem was. The problem was Kormorants. And I was like a joke for a long time. I'm like, yeah, Kormorants, you know, people hated Kormorants. I might be wrong, but I think they found a tag. So in that case in that area, blame was put on the double breasted Kormorant, but that was one thing things were really tipping and the ecosystem was getting so upset by zebra mussels and it threw the whole system out of whack. Change fish distribution change bottom structure change like everything food water clarity. But again, it was like people look and they see a thing and it's visible right and they attribute it to it. But you can't argue with the numbers. Right. You know, so people say with wolves like, I don't know, they'd seven pounds of me today. It's got to come from somewhere. You know, we should make sure it says ban Kormorants not life scope. I'm sure for sure put that new an emoji. The big Kormorant just sitting above. Good. Mary Peltola. Okay, we're in jump over to a speaking of fisheries. This is a very well constructed episode. Speaking of all that, declining fisheries, we're going to step over and speak with Alaska Native and Senate candidate Mary Pell tolla from state of Alaska. Most laymo's in the world get their meat at the grocery store but we prefer to pack ours out of the field. That's why we made the meat eater grocery bags ultra lightweight breathable nylon game bags that cool your meat fast and keep it clean from the field to the cooler with reflective print and features to help you find your game bags in the dark meaning like reflective stuff so your flashlight shines off it even when you got to hang them way up in a tree we have two sets okay we got sets for whether you're packing out a deer or whether you're packing out an elk or moose and they're reusable season after season I've had some of mine for many years I just I give them a good rinse run them through my wash machine hang them up to dry these are your grocery bags these are a thinking man's grocery bags head over to the meat eater store dot com and get yourself a brand new set of excellent game bags for this common season okay everybody we got a we got a super interesting segment right now because we're joined here with Mary Pell tolla from Alaska who is running for the United States Senate um Pell tolla has held a U.S. Congressional seat but is is looking to to come into the U.S. Senate should she should voter send her to the Senate on November 3rd um I would argue that this would be that she would be probably the the least conventional most unconventional senator to ever enter that chamber um in that she grew up in coastal Alaska surrounded with subsistence fishing commercial fishing just a very unusual background and Mary thanks for taking a couple minutes to talk to us I know it's a super busy time a year from for you uh you you you political folks so thank you very much thank you Steve it's good to be here can you tell people a little bit about your you know I want to stick to fish here as we discuss but can you tell people a little bit about your childhood relationship to salmon and some of the activities you were brought up around some of the activities you were brought up doing so I'm from the cusco quim river the cusco quim is in the southwest portion of Alaska we're above Bristol Bay and right below the Yukon River we're huge and we have historically had millions and millions of salmon returning every year all five species the the tributary that I'm from that my mom is from is called weeklook it means bad river or muddy river and even that tributary had millions and millions of chum salmon returning historically millions of shinnok salmon um silvers in recent history like the last 80 90 years we've also had seen the um in migration of sockeye salmon reds and it was really interesting growing up with my mom's first cousin Robert he would talk about when they first saw reds show up and they were you know what is this what is the species and um in Bristol Bay they have historic massive runs of of sockeye so we use their word for um for red saillite um and and now you're seeing them migrating even more to the north which is really good um for for reds reds are one of the salmon that do really well with ocean temperature rise with their one or two degree temperature rise huh okay the real yeah the salmon that do um the worst under those conditions are shinnok salmon and that and that's why I think statewide every single tributary in Alaska we've seen a massive decline in the number of shinnok salmon returning but um when I was growing up we grew up I grew up commercial fishing my dad had a um commercial fishing permit and my sister and I would tape turns being his helper and so when I started I was six she was nine um he he wouldn't bring us both at the same time because he found that we were either playing or fighting and not being good helpers so we would each take turns going out every opener and I just you know one of my earliest memories as a six-year-old was commercial fishing with my dad and um 4th of july is the peak of our chum run and my dad was borrowing a really small wooden homemade skiff really you know small um short sideboards and the runs were so huge the returns of salmon were so tremendous that a couple long drifts you know I grew up commercial um drift net gilnet fishing and at that point we could use a full shackle so 50 fathom net um just a few drifts you could practically you could swamp your boat you could just catch so many um you know all of us kind of have these stories of setting your net around the 4th of july hoping to catch like six chums and by the time you've got the full length out it's sinking and you're panicking and it's like get this in as soon as you can don't even bother picking the fish because your net is literally sinking and you know you're pulling them in kind of like grapes you know like clusters of fish and you know when I was in college I worked for our uh state department efficient game and during this time I remember in my sleep I would see these tangled up chums and chums are spinners they they get in the gilnet and they spin around and they circle back and they get in these real real tangled pockets so even in my sleep I would see the this mess of chums you know that you'd have to try to untangle to get out but um this was kind of the abundance that that we grew up with you know so many salmon it would swamp your boat so many salmon you're kind of having nightmarish dreams about yeah picking your there's just so many um and then fast forward to around 2009 2010 2011 and it was shocking you know my husband and I um the the scenario had always been when we were going to check our set net we were really worried that we would catch too many so many that we wouldn't be able to harvest them in one day like 80 or 90 at a time with these really short set nets but then we were showing up that there'd be you know 20 and then one year we were checking our set net and it was single digit numbers and you know that's when we all have to kind of stand back and pause and say what is going wrong here what are we collectively doing wrong to create a situation where there is just so few fish now. Mm hmm can you explain a little bit about the the decline in fisheries that you're talking about like some of the some of the things that might be contributing to that but also to spend interesting it within that answer if you can touch on this it's been interesting that that as people are looking ahead to the election and really anticipating is the Senate going to flip right and Alaska is one of those states which is a lot of attention being paid due to that question but the same time one of the key issues one of the key political issues in Alaska are fisheries and so we're in this really weird situation that might seem very strange to people in the lower 48 or as you guys would say the people on the outside is run this strange situation where fisheries are at are at a level of like heightened national significance right now because they're so important to the race in Alaska and because the race in Alaska is so important to control of the Senate so just again a reminder like it's a two-part question what what are some of the things happening to deplete fisheries in Alaska and how has this turned into a how has this turned into a political issue? Well and honestly as an Alaskan as an Alaskan who depends on on RC food resources are salmon industry are you know just a healthy ecosystem up here I am so thankful that this is a marquee issue in Alaska that it's a marquee issue in the lower 48 because for so long we have felt like this is the best kept secret in Alaska and the best kept in the lower 48 so we're I'm really thankful that that this is the the topic um you know in Alaska we recognize that there have been so many changes in the last 20 years in terms of you know farm fish has has taken up such a huge market share up for our commercial fishermen and that's a huge concern I think as Alaskans as commercial as the commercial industry realizes that's one of the biggest threats is the farm fish the other big threat is ocean temperature rise and I mentioned it at the beginning um the winners in in a ocean one or two degree ocean temperature rise are our our sockeye salmon and that helps Bristol bay but um for those of us in every other river system who really depend on Chinook salmon that's one of the biggest losers and you know we had five snowless winters in the early teens and because of that like by the fifth summer of a snowless winter we had chum salmon floating down the river completely unmolested like nothing you there were no um gilnet marks or there was nothing that outwardly killed the sample. and then they find out that they're actually having heart attacks or having heat strokes because the river is 70 something degrees above zero and it's, you know, 90 degrees in the shade. So those are all, you know, very, very damaging and challenging on salmon. We know that ocean acidification is also a problem. One of the biggest food sources for salmon is is zooplankton and zooplankton needs a certain level, you know, a certain pH and when we have a really acidic ocean that just really impacts the salmon's food. But on top of that, you know, for so many decades, it has just felt like statewide candidates have just kind of brushed the fisheries issues aside and said, oh, it's too complicated, I can't understand that. And that's just silly. It is not that complicated. Yes, there are a lot of complicating factors. But the one issue that we are really seeing a movement on because it's hard to impact acidification and ocean temperature rise at the state level, at the federal level. So one of the easiest things that we can do is get our arms around the troll fleet and this is industrial factory trawling and we're talking about metric tons of forage fish being harvested and then metric tons of bycatch and every fisherman knows that bycatch is inevitable. But chucking over metric tons of juvenile halibut salmon and crab, it's got to have a cumulative effect and there really is a movement across Alaska and it's so nonpartisan, it's, you know, this is not a partisan issue food and food security and taking care of our environment and not being wasteful. Well, that is not a partisan issue. And so across Alaska, you know, seafood and salmon and fish, whether it's carrying halibut, crab, salmon, all of these things are part of our cultural identity and this is how we really see ourselves. And so when we're seeing this really wasteful industry that does so much environmental damage and yeah, you know, and I can see why they would feel like it is not just us and we're not saying it is just that, but this is the one thing that is easy to get our arms around. This is a practice that is not tolerated in most parts of the world. Most fisheries have said no to industrial factory trawling and the fact that it happens in Alaska legally on our own shores by our own government and so much of the economic benefit does not impact Alaska. We've got these industrial factory trawlers, not only are they usurping and really taking so much of the resource, but they're also processing it offshore. So where our small communities aren't even benefiting from the processing of it and then they don't have to be taxed at the same at the rate they would be if they were processing on shore. You know, there are some cascading effects, but all of this is such an affront to Alaska and values of not not wasting and then being better at sharing. What do you feel that the could happen on the federal level to address let's say the one issue that you said that can be addressed like like the commercial trawl industry. What could happen at the federal level that would start to they would start to address it or like you said get like get your arms around the issue because that does seem to me you know coming in and battling ocean acidification or battling the warming of the ocean. The warming of the oceans seems, you know, like a brings to mind like the down coyote, you know, but but the the the trawl thing seems more solvable, but what would it take at the federal level to start getting a handle on that industry. The political will and honestly that comes from the outside we need voters to really move the dial on that so much of what happens in the Senate and the House and at the legislative level. You know there are people imagine that the the legislators are the thermostat it's really the public the public is demanding this change and. You know I think that the North Pacific fisheries management council we really need to look at the composition of that management body when when you're looking at the composition of the board what dictates that is the Magnus and Stevens act and Ted Stevens is one of our most revered senators and he is one of the co authors of that legislation. And it dictates who sits on the North Pacific fisheries management council we have a member from Washington we have a member from Oregon we have agency staff and then it is. Similarly the industry so it's the Fox watching the hen house and in my and we really need that body to really reflect Alaska more there there has been a movement for years to have tribal members sit on the North Pacific fisheries management council they wouldn't have a majority they would be such a many minority I don't know what the threat is of just having members who are more reflective of Alaska. We don't have enough people who are not industry folks or agency folks who really live off the land and depend on those resources they've really kind of been aced out of the conversation I know there are a few members on the AP it's one of their committees. But not enough to make a dent not enough to really move the dial on these the the few individuals who get on there from the public it's just like you say it's Don Quixote you know you're just so alone and it's so easy for these industry folks to just kind of gas light and gas like the situation and. We just want a reef you know of a body that is reflective of the user groups and not just the industry and you know if you're somebody who lives on the cusco quim river it just feels like legal corruption and it really is our most present example of corporate greed where we have these huge corporations coming in. And just usurping all the resource taking all that money and leaving the state and you know we we don't even have scraps left we're fighting over crumbs here and on our rivers like the Yukon River they have been told they are not allowed to fish for salmon for seven years running yeah. This has just had such damaging effects and then on top of that you've got the war in Iran and the exorbitant fuel prices now shungnex paying twenty six eighty to a gallon most rural communities are paying around ten dollars a gallon for gas and on top of not having that. Just you know we we really became one of the most foundational parts of our culture in western Alaska is the reliance on salmon and we are accustomed to being able to harvest hundreds of salmon a year for each family and that really is the foundation of all of our nutrients. It is so expensive so it's just insult to injury and we're not having conversations with people about this around the state and I think that's another reason it's such a emotional and and one of the reasons we're so fired up about this is because folks in these rural places are feeling starved out and feeling like no one is even coming to talk to them about these issues. My last question for you is it's as much an observation as a question is that I mean you spent your life in in fisheries and you know that oftentimes when there's a sort of resource argument. You find that that recreational fishermen will feel like they're pitted against subsistence fishermen and subsistence fishermen will feel like they're pitted against recreational and commercial and the recreational guys are blaming the commercial guys and vice versa. It seems to me that the situation with the salmon fishery and halved fisheries in Alaska is becoming more of a unifier right now and that I think that there's I'm feeling like a lot of different kinds of fishermen meaning you know recreational tourism people that come up subsistence people like how you were brought up commercial people. That they're all coming together and realizing that there is a problem that needs to be addressed and it seems like it's moving beyond just blaming each other for it is that is that you're feeling from when you're out talking to people in communities in Alaska. It really is and we've all gone through the phase of blaming each other you know we've gone through I like in it to the stages of grief and you go into these management meetings and you can see where different people are and and a lot of times you're you're just kind of sliding up and down you know the. There's a range of emotions in these meetings but no we are it is really impacting every sector whether it's. commercial, like you say, or sport, or those of us who are living off the land. And it is galvanizing. And this is such a nonpartisan issue. And it's a movement. And I know I often get the credit or the blame for elevating this. It is not me elevating this alone. This is a movement. I am one of tens tens of thousands of Alaskans who have just had it on this. And we, you know, people have been going to the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council for years now saying the same thing. You get I think two whole minutes if you're a member of the public to try to encapsulate how damaging, how impactful this is to our families. And I think folks, you know, we're so thankful that this issue has been elevated to the level that it is being elevated to. We're so thankful that this campaign is about Alaskan issues and issues that really resonate here with people on a day-to-day basis. It's so often in national races and in election cycles. These discussions seem to be about really abstract things, things happening in faraway places. And nothing is more personal to Alaskans than the way we eat and how we hunt and fish and our access to hunting and fishing and our rights to hunting and fishing and being able to pass on those traditions and the values inherent in those traditions. You know, I can't teach my kids how to be Alaskan or how to be ubiquitous unless we're actually hunting and fishing. I can't teach them from a book or with words or pictures. The only way to do it is to be actually doing it to be out on the land, you know, teaching your kids how to read the weather, how to respect your catch, how to make sure you're sharing your harvest with other people, maintaining that balance, and, you know, coming to hunting and fishing with the right attitude, just the tiny rules that we have to live by. I mean, you'll this will resonate with you, Steve, just a basic rule of when you're outdoors camping and fishing, you don't complain. You don't talk about being hungry or cold or tired. That's off the table. Those are not things that you learn unless you're really out there doing it. So, you know, one of my favorite values is like, you know, when you're processing fish, when you're interacting with your game, you have to be in the right mindset. You cannot be in a bad mood. You have to be grateful. You have to, you know, be calm. And what a great value to teach people. You cannot say disparaging things or things that might disrespect your harvest or catch. Just everything about living off the land teaches you such important values and skills that are transferable to everything. So, and as the last ends, this is not a partisan issue. This is just who we are. Well, Mary Peltola, Peltola, thank you for coming on and talking about the issues and we'll be watching. I'll be waking up on November 4th. Very curious about what happens up there. So, thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. And it might take a few weeks for all of our ballots to come in. So, you know, my view around is skipping by the time we know how this race turns out, but it's neck and neck. So, I'm going to need every vote I can get. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. Thanks again. Thanks, Steve. If you've ever wanted to try on first light gear before buying it, well, now you got a whole lot more places to do it. 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