Ep 95: The State of ESG in 2026

[Music] Welcome back to Sustainability Defined Definers Happy New Year! We are so excited to kick off 2026 with episode 95, the State of ESG in 2026. My name is Nathira. And my name is Cecilia. Welcome to 2026. Oh wow! This year specifically really showcases how time flies. I was just talking about this because 2026 marks 10 years since like essentially the best year known to man. The best year 2016. This is a universal phenomenon. Everyone I talk to agrees that this year or that year was memorialized in time and will go down as one of the best vibes that a year could possibly. No seriously. Seriously. Rumors are saying that 2026 might be a repeat of 2016. Oh my god, one can only dream. I'm so curious to dissect what's in store for us in 2026, especially on the ESG front. But before we get into that Definer's, we want to take a second to acknowledge what an amazing year 2025 was. It was neither an eyes first year hosting the podcast. We got named to one of the top sustainability podcasts by Travis Group for the year. And our Spotify rap stats came out and showed us that there is a community of over 17,000 Definers on Spotify alone. And many others of you are listening across different platforms. So we're just really grateful for that. We talk a little bit about our year and review in our last holiday Hodgepodge episode. But our top listening regions from around the world include North America, the UK and Australia. Maybe one day Cecilia and I will make it down under and do a world tour in the U.N. person. That would be so epic. Right. But my favorite stop from the year was knowing that 192 of you have a sustainability defined as your number one listen to podcast. Shout out to you Definers. That means a lot to us. I mean, it's crazy to think about. And neither and I were freaking out because it really gives us like a tangible look into this powerful community that is the Definers. Right. I'm imagining 192 of you in a room right now. And I'm like, that's a lot. That's so cool. That's a lot. But you guys have given us so much and we love getting the privilege of defining with you and for you. And on that note, let's get into today's definition and today's topic. Let's get into the current and future state of ESG. Because here's the thing. ESG is everywhere right now and it has been for a while. It's also one of the most misunderstood and frankly, surprisingly controversial concepts and sustainability right now. You guys might have heard about it. You guys might have heard about the attack on ESG. Depending on who you ask, ESG is either the future of climate action. It's a useful reporting framework or it's a buzzword that's lost all meaning. And in 2026, we're seeing that tension and those transitions to different models play out in real time. Some companies are doubling down on transparency and accountability. While others are quietly stepping back from the fierce and public commitments they made just a few years ago. You all might remember all the net zero 2050 goals. Right. What is that about? But that's not what we're here to talk about. And that's what makes this moment so critical. We've seen political backlash, regulatory shifts and companies facing pressure from all different sides. Investors demanding data, consumers expecting action. And in some cases, political movements pushing back against ESG altogether. So the landscape can be messy and it's changing very fast. And there are a lot of misconceptions around this doom and gloom around ESG and sustainability, which is exactly why we want to do this episode. Today we're going back to the foundation to understand what ESG actually is. How it drives climate action and sustainability and where it's headed in 2026. We'll talk about what ESG accomplished when it works, what happens when companies report versus when they actually govern with ESG in mind. And why all of this should matter to you as an individual. We will also break down some of the alphabet soup of the ESG world. Lord knows there's so many abbreviations and letters. It's so confusing. There really is. Stay tuned for that. And then we'll bring in Marcy Tweet, founder and CEO of Veerless, a company that helps clients advance their sustainability strategies across the scope of ESG. She's going to give us an insider view on what trends are shaping ESG right now, how companies are navigating this complexity, and what we should all be paying attention to as we move through 2026. So let's get into it. So first things first, what is ESG? ESG stands for environmental, social and governance. And no, it's not a secret code on LinkedIn or a political stance. Although sometimes it feels like it might be like I genuinely don't understand why climate action is partisan. If there's one thing we all have in common, it's that we share this planet. And I'm like, can we stop politicizing this? Please. Yes, why is it so taboo? But seriously, at its core, ESG is a holistic framework that helps stakeholders and investors evaluate how a business manages risk, responsibility, and long-term value beyond just financial performance. It's broken to three pillars. You can think of ESG like the triple bottom line, also known as people, profit and planet. Right. And when we talk, you might hear people talk about the bottom line in accounting. That's a term for your financial outcome. The triple bottom line or also ESG again covers that full impact of your company, the people, the profit, the planet, the environmental effects. So let's start with the E in ESG, environmental. This looks at a company's environmental footprint specifically. Things like carbon emissions, water use, pollution, how natural resources are managed. All the good stuff. For example, a company might track and reduce emissions across its supply chain or invest in water efficient manufacturing to lower overall impact. That would fall in the E bucket of ESG. Right. And then we move on to the S social. This evaluates how a company interacts with people and communities. Maybe things like labor practices, human rights, community engagement, diversity, and even customer consumer trust. A great example here is Tony's took a lonely. If you guys remember our first episode from neither an eye, we'll throw back to 2025. Yes, throw back. But we had Tony's on this podcast for our hot commodities episode on chocolate or cacao. And it was a really interesting episode where they really talked about the S factor in their company business model. They've built this entire business model around addressing labor practices and human rights in the cacao supply chain. Showing that responsibility can look what responsibility can look like with the social side of ESG. If you haven't heard this episode, we encourage you to go back and listen. Earlier you heard us mention the difference between reporting on ESG and actually governing with that mindset. They're governing. I feel like Tony is a good example. Yeah, they are. It's so central to who they are. So it's like the difference between an action and the value. And as we're seeing consumer interest grow companies that hold ESG as a core value are continuing to be successful in the long run when it comes to addressing sustainability. And with that being said, finally, the G in ESG. So this is governance. This evaluates a company's management style and their decision making processes. So again, how central is ESG to how they're actually showing their leadership and operating in their company. This touches upon board composition, executive pay, shareholder rights and transparency. So companies like Microsoft, right? They have tied executive compensation to sustainability performance. Meaning that leadership bonuses aren't just based on profit. Yes, what does that mean? Right. So they're just not getting bonuses based on profits, but they also get their bonuses based on if they are meeting the environmental and social goals that they set. I love it. Governance shows up when sustainability becomes non-negotiable, right? You can think of governance as leadership and action. So when executives only get their full bonus of climate and ethical goals are met, an example of governance. So this was actually an ESG measure. I remember benchmarking when I was a sustainability consultant. And that was if a company had a chief sustainability officer and what their and what department their CSO or chief sustainability officer sat in. These are ways to measure how serious a company is about their goals. Are they hiring a team around this? Are they integrating that team into different departments to really make sure that it's widespread and not just as we like to say siloed to the sustainability department. We love to say that. Those structures are really telling for how an organization views the importance of long term sustainability goals and practices versus just reporting because they have to. Right. It's not just reporting, but we'll get into that. So to wrap up the definition, ESG is a way to measure how companies handle risk and responsibility beyond the balance sheet. But here's the key. ESG is not the same thing as sustainability and it's definitely not a climate strategy on its own. Think of sustainability as the goal and ESG as the measurement system. It's the spreadsheet behind the strategy, not the strategy itself. Exactly. So the question is, why would companies go the extra mile to evaluate non-financial performance? We obviously know companies are heavily motivated by profits. So what are the actual benefits of ESG? Well, there are four main reasons why companies do this. Such a good question, mate. They're like, in this economy, what is the motive here? In this economy. No, but number one of reasons why companies may do this. Number one is risk management. We talked a little bit about this before, but ESG helps companies identify and manage potential risks that could impact financial performance or the company's reputation. For example, take a company operating in a region prone to extreme weather. If they're not accounting for climate risks in that region, they could face severe supply chain disruptions, facility shutdowns, or even higher insurance costs. Or another example, think about brands that ignore labor or human right risks, not Tonys, not Tonys. We've seen companies face a lot of public backlash and they lose consumer trust and even legal action when those issues come to light. Right. I remember in 2007, it was like, you're gap or old Navy got. I was like six years old. I don't think I remember that. I know. I was like definitely 10, but I remember this specifically because it was either gap or old Navy, but they got exposed for having child labor in their supply chain and that child labor is coming out of India. Obviously, I'm Indian. So our family talked about that a lot and people were boycotting. I mean, we've seen this so many times in 2020 and beyond. She consumers are locked in. Yeah, consumers are locked into human rights. And yeah, she and skin talk to you. You're on my hit list. But another reason that companies report on ESG is competitive advantage. So companies that prioritize ESG can differentiate themselves from competitors. And this is where you, the consumer, have power and you vote with your dollar stop. Cecilia snips it out. I'm on the edge of my seat here. Like I'm waiting for it every episode. I'm just going to keep dropping it randomly in times I have no context to keep you on your toes. Cecilia. But this is where you the consumer have power. Research by McKinsey shows that consumers are shifting their spending towards products and services with ESG related claims. There's been a growing demand for sustainability and health. This is not a new phenomenon. These purchasing trends have evolved over time and going into 2026. We are seeing consumers really care about wellness, health, the toxicity of ingredients used in products and how they're contributing to the intersection of planet and human health. Clean eating, clean materials, attention to micro plastics and other environmental health factors are really being spotlighted right now. I love it. We're all in our wellness era and we're all voting with our dollars. Go us. Go us. And the third reason is reputation which kind of goes hand in hand with a competitive advantage. ESG directly impacts how a company is perceived by the public and with so many different companies and choices that we can make as consumers. I feel like I naturally am going to opt for the one that feels healthier and better for society in the planet. That's just me. Obviously there are tons of families out there that are struggling with affordability and can't choose to make these decisions. I definitely want to acknowledge that. But consumers want to know where products come from and investors want proof behind sustainability claims and employees want to work for companies whose values match their actions. And again, ESG is not necessarily just a strategy but it's a measurement tool. So when reporting on ESG factors, we can stack companies up against one another and we can really see what their impact is. And transparency matters because stakeholders are paying closer attention than ever. And when companies clearly report what they're doing and where they still have work to do, it builds trust. So true, Nathara. And on the flip side, when companies are vague, inconsistent or stop reporting altogether, it raises red flags. In today's environment, silence or lack of clarity often leads people to assume something is being hidden. So which is not a bad thought because true. But reputation isn't just about good press. It's also about credibility in a world that expects more from companies. Right. And credibility is all that you really have these days in the eyes of consumers because consumers can jump ship and find a new brand fast. There's so many brands, especially so many brands. I'm overwhelmed. Very saturated market. No, literally. This is how I feel when I walk into a Sephora. I'm like, why are there six new brands popping up and like, I'm literally just here for an eyeliner? No, when they're all yelling at you, they're like, by me, by me. Pick me. Pick me. Choose me. Love me. See me. When I walk into Sephora, though, I guess I kind of am like a perfect example of someone who shops with ESG in mind. I mean, hopefully I would be being a sustainable. But like the only way I narrow it down is like which brands are vegan and cruelty free because otherwise I'm looking at 27 brands. Yes, Ilya. But I'm looking at like 27 different brands doing the exact same thing. No, I feel like it's the exact same thing. And Ilya, if you're listening to this, we see you and we want you to come on this podcast. We do. We want you to come or say we love your climate strategy right now. Yes. But that kind of leads me to number four, which is innovation with so many products in market saturation ESG can actually drive creativity and new ways of thinking. So remember when we talked about wicked problems, like a problem, just a little refresh. Wicked problems are sustainability challenges that are messy and interconnected and one decision affects another which affects something else. It's just a web. This is my favorite buzzword. It's so fun. You taught me that word to see. Yeah. It's such a fun web to like, I don't, it's like a puzzle. It's fun. It's so, so fun. I love, I love hyper complicated issues. Super fun. But companies are tasked with navigating that complexity, right? And finding new connections, spotting opportunities and developing solutions at advanced ESG agenda while keeping the business profitable is important. So in other words, ESG again isn't just a framework for responsibility. It can spark innovation and create problem solving across organizations and then hopefully one day across whole industries. Fingers crossed. So there you have it, Definers. We have defined what ESG is and why companies engage with it. Why do they care? Through these examples that we've shared like Tony's took a long leave. For example, we can see what ESG actually means for climate action. It keeps companies accountable for their impact. But how do companies actually measure and report this impact? This is a good question and it's on my mind too. That's where things tend to get a little bit more complicated. This is important because ESG isn't just a checklist or a PDF you file once a year. It's about measuring performance, tracking progress and being transparent with stakeholders and also reporting on the same metrics because you want to see progress year after year, right? And that's why there are multiple frameworks designed to help companies report on their ESG impact in a structured way. So it's sort of like it's messy. Yes, the Alphabet Soup. Yup. This is the Alphabet Soup that Nathan mentioned and we can't wait to get into this and I hope you guys have a have a pen and paper because this is really hard to keep track of. But it's fun. Let's get into it. Yeah. Follow along. We'll try to break it down for you. When I first started working as a sustainability strategy in disclosure consultant out of college, I see Neythra. Sounds fancy right, but I was just making a lot of decks and reading a lot of sustainability reports. I was at three level jobs are. Right. I have to like edit this comma out for me and you're like, okay, like you're paying for this. Okay. Yeah. But you're like, this is what I did four years of school for. I am ready to edit out that comma. Exactly. And speaking of school, like I was in a sustainability program, which was amazing, but we didn't actually really do a deep dive on to these different frameworks. And then when I got into the job, I realized like this is so much of the bulk of what sustainability professionals need to be aware of. Definitely. I had no idea what any of this Alphabet Soup was. I assumed working in sustainability was all strategy based and we would just go into a company, analyze their main material concerns, and you'll find out more about what materiality and materiality assessments mean in our interview portion. But I literally just thought that you were getting in there and like if I worked for Coke, I would be like right on the front lines of like reducing plastic. But one can only hope and wish that we can only hope. But instead we're editing out the comments that slide deck. Exactly, which I guess are important, but you're also working really closely with these frameworks. You guys are editing out comments like keep hanging in there, no hate, no shame. What we do is important. Yes. And you will get to the strategy point. And it's important. It's very important to understand these frameworks and their relevance as a sustainability professional. So true. Because this is the way to standardize across organizations. So if you're looking to enter the field, I suggest you dive a little bit deeper into the frameworks that we're about to get into. But we're going to help you out. All right. So we're going into rapid fire mode now. So you guys don't get bored with this alphabet soup. But if you're new to ESG reporting, the alphabet soup of frameworks that we keep saying alphabet soup and you're probably like, what is this? But it can be absolutely overwhelming. There is a lot of frameworks that companies can report on. So let's do a lightning round, Nathan, what are the major frameworks that we need to know about in 2026? >> Love it. And when we talk about alphabet soup, we're just talking about all the different letters and acronyms because there's a lot of them. So let's start with the OG, GRI, the global reporting initiative. >> The OG. The GRI is like the encyclopedia of sustainability reporting. It's been around since 1997 and it covers everything from labor practices to biodiversity to tax transparency. Think of it as the most comprehensive, quote, "Tell us everything, framework." It's voluntary, globally recognized. And if you want to report on your full sustainability impact, not just what's financially material, GRI is your girl. >> Right. And you might be thinking, well, that seems to cover it all. Why would there be any other reports that you need to mention? Well, it's because GRI is pretty general. And the next framework, Sazby kind of answers that question. So, Sazby, S-A-S-B, is the Sustainability Accounting Standards Board? >> That's kind of a cute name for like a dog or something. >> Right. >> Hey, Sazby. >> Hey, Sazby. >> Hey, GRI. >> Sazby is all about financial materiality. It asks, what sustainability issues actually affect your bottom line? Like, what does the company actually care about what is impacting the company? And here's the kicker. It's industry-specific. So, if you're in healthcare, you're reporting on totally different metrics than if you're in oil and gas. As of 2024, Sazby is now under the IFRS Foundation alongside the new ISS-B standards. So, it's becoming a building block for global sustainability disclosure. >> Right. And that's the difference between GRI and Sazby GRI's general, Sazby's industry-specific. So, that's why a combination of these reports. >> It's more niche. >> It's more niche. And a combination of these reports is important for a company because they can dive even deeper. >> Right. >> And report a picture. >> A whole picture, exactly. Which, speaking of which, ISS-B might have heard this earlier, just mention that. >> Yeah, what is that? >> That is the International Sustainability Standards Board. That's the new kid that's actually becoming the Global Baseline. >> Ooh, the new kid on the blog. ISS-B released its first standards in 2023, pretty recent. IFRS-S1 on general sustainability, disclosures, and IFRS-S2, specifically on climate. I'm outful, I know. But think of it as the IFRS for sustainability. And it's designed to create a global baseline that works across borders. And by 2026, we're seeing major economies either adopting it or directly aligning their local rules with it. This is the future of global sustainability reporting. >> So many letters, like LOL, IRL. >> No, literally. >> But let's talk a little bit about T-C-F-D. This is the task force on climate-related financial disclosures. So the F is the emphasis here. This framework is really used to focus in on the financial bottom line in relation to sustainability. >> And the T-C-F-D gave us the framework everyone's been using for climate risk, governance, strategy, risk management, and metrics and targets. Here's the thing though, T-C-F-D as a standalone framework is being sunset. Its recommendations have been incorporated into the ISSV standards. So if you're reporting under ISSV, you're essentially covering what T-C-F-D asked for, but with more teeth. >> Exactly. Now, CDP. >> Another letter. Carbon disclosure project. Is it still relevant? >> Absolutely, Nathra. CDP is the questionnaire that investors, consumers, and supply chains used to assess your environmental performance. Carbon emissions, water security, deforestation, all these things. Over 23,000 companies disclose through the CDP. It's not technically mandatory, but if your biggest customer asks you to fill it out, it might as well be. >> Period. >> And the good news. CDP has aligned its questions with other frameworks, so you're not reinventing the wheel, and it makes it a little bit easier for companies to report like this. >> And finally, the one that got European companies sweating and therefore the world sweating, because most companies do operate out of Europe as well. So this has global touch points. That is CSRD, the corporate sustainability reporting directive. >> And the CSRD is the EU's heavyweight mandatory reporting regime, hence why I got Europe sweating. It kicked in for the largest companies in 2024, and by 2026, we are in the thick of the rollout with medium-sized companies now in scope. But what makes the CSRD different? The answer is double materiality. You report on how sustainability issues affect your business and keyword and how your business affects people and the planet. It's comprehensive, it's audible, and it applies to around 50,000 companies in the EU. That is a lot of companies. Think about us a forer with 50,000. >> Exactly. So this report, again, applies to all companies in the EU, but also non-EU companies that have significant EU operations, so most global companies operating in the US. So this report is honestly really important because it's shaping, it's basically pigeon-holing companies into reporting, which is important. It's really enforcing accountability. And we talked a little bit about double materiality. I'll give you an example of that. So I know we bring up Tonys a lot here because we love them, but like- >> It is such a good example, though, like seriously. >> If they were reporting on double materiality, which is again, how sustainability issues affect your business and how your business affects people, they would be talking about the potential droughts that affect their cacao supply, but they would also be talking about how their farm operations impact the communities in which they're operating in. >> Right. It's a double. >> Double. >> And here's the silver lining. These frameworks are increasingly talking to each other. They're becoming besties, okay? We're seeing a convergence and alignment. So while it may look like chaos, and it sounds like chaos with all these different letters, there's actually a method to this madness. >> So to recap, GRI is for comprehensive impact. SASB and ISSB is for investor-focused financial materiality and impact. TCFD's legacy is living on in ISSB, and CDP is for stakeholder questionnaires. And last but not least, CSRD is the mandatory EU standard with double materiality. >> Good recap, Nathra. Thank you. >> You're welcome. You just need a good spreadsheet. >> No, literally. This kind of reminds me of the meme that's like, I don't know what this is, but I don't say we may have to cut the sound, but it did the meme that's like freaking the sheets, and it's just a comment sitting there. >> Yeah, yes, exactly. And this is why, again, as a sustainability professional, you might feel like you're doing a lot of desk work, but it is important because these accountability frameworks are what motivates people for the next year. >> No, I can't wait to do that type of work, Nathra, because I'm trying to vetting out the comments. >> We'll get you there Cecilia. We'll get you there. >> Thank you. I can't wait. >> Well, last but not least, let's talk about what this actually means for companies trying to navigate all this. And here's what's tricky, not all ESD reporting is mandatory. Some companies choose to disclose their impact voluntarily to build trust, gain a competitive edge, or just align with stakeholder expectations. But the landscape is constantly shifting. >> Of course. >> What's optional one year might become mandatory the next, and right now, in 2026, we are seeing companies navigate a lot of uncertainty, new regulations, political pressure, changing expectations from investors and consumers. >> No, it's like it was complicated and now it's even more complicated, which brings us to the bigger questions. When ESG works, what does it actually accomplish? How does ESG move sustainability from intention to action? And in a moment when some companies are stepping back, what does the future of ESG really look like? >> We're going to stop yapping and hand the mic over to Marcy Tweet, the CEO of Bearless. She is joining us to answer all those hard-hitting questions. I loved our conversation with her, because she explains things in such a clear way, and she's so much fun. So she works with companies navigating this complexity every day, and she's going to give us a front row seat to where ESG is headed in 2026. Let's dive in. We are joined today by Marcy Tweet, the CEO of VeerLis, where she advises corporations of all sizes, their investors, and key partners on environmental, social, and governance risks, and reputation management. Marcy has served as a board member at organizations, including girls on the run Twin Cities, Chicago Architecture Center, Girl Scouts of the Greater Chicago and Northwest Indiana, and Step-Up. She received her undergraduate degree in political science from the College of St. Benedict, and her MBA from Kellex School Management at Northwestern University. That was a mouthful. I'm sorry. (laughs) Marcy lives in Minneapolis with her husband Charlie, and her beloved dogs Pearl and Opal. Super cute names, by the way. Love that. What an intro. Welcome, Marcy. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. I just locked Pearl and Opal in a room with their dad so that they could not be on my house. I love that. Well, Marcy, we stalked you a little bit on the internet and see that you are not new to podcasting. You currently host table stakes, a podcast for responsible sustainable businesses and leaders where you discuss issues with sustainability with four thinking leaders to forecast the future of responsible business. So, I see that you might have a mic set up in the background too. I see that you have my trusty little podcast, my care. So, yeah. I love it. I love that. You also previously hosted office baggage, a podcast that tackles topics for women in business. And just through your experience, it seems that you have worked with the girl's scallops and girls on the run, and you're just very involved in mentorship of women, which is great. Yeah. It's a strong passion of mine always has been. One of my first jobs out of college was working at a nonprofit called Women Venture that helped women start small businesses and expand their careers and work on financial literacy. And so, it's just been in my heart for a very long time. And I spent even in high school campaigned for a lot of women running for office. And, yeah. So, women's issues are who I am in my core. I love it. A professional girl's girl. I love that. That should be her like did bio. 100% of the professional girls girls can love that. I love it. And now you're here with us on a women led podcast. So, what's up? Well, as we were doing some digging, Nathan and I found this quote from your bio page and we both loved it. So, defineers, I will read it for you. It's about Marcy talking about her community. The quote goes, "My people read the fine print on the back of the shampoo bottle and Google the chemicals in it but eat the candy full of red dye 40." Me. "My people watch trash television and read political biographies on the same day. My people give to plant parenthood and ducks unlimited because they both save our world in entirely different ways. And my people are never just one thing and neither am I." This was so inspirational. I love it. And even now knowing that you're a professional girls girl, even more inspirational. But it seems people are number one thing and it looks like you wear a ton of different hats. So, can you tell us a little bit more about all these different hats that you wear, how you got into this work, how you found it, fearless? Yeah, we did this on our website. This kind of my people exercise. It's actually kind of a riff on this really fun exercise that starts with "I Am From" and that my yoga studio did. Okay. And I kind of co-opted it for our website. But yeah, I'll kind of go back. So, as I said, I started my career in nonprofit. I was a polycy major. And so, focus on social issues, environmental issues has always been at my core. And then made the jump over into the corporate world. In nonprofit, I was always a corporate fundraiser when I worked my first few years out of college. And then made the jump into the corporate world and ended up at a company called Arsler Middle, which I always joke about is the largest company in the world. No one's ever heard of. It is so much more ideal and mining of companies. Yeah, I can't say I've heard of it. Yeah, based out of Luxembourg. And I ended up running corporate responsibility for their America's region. Wow. And stayed there for quite a number of years as we were in kind of a transition in the early 2010s of the old sort of corporate social responsibility, which is still really important. We're sort of morphing into sustainability and ESG. And so, I really had a trial by fire in one of the largest companies in the world, one of the largest corporate emitters in the world in terms of climate. One of the largest water users in the world and the kind of joke that I came out of Arsler with was if you can run sustainability in a steel company, you can run sustainability anywhere. So, I left Arsler in 2018 after I got my MBA and had been there for a number of years. And I fully expected to land back in a corporate job. And I interviewed for a lot of heads of sustainability, chief sustainability officers jobs in 2018. And over the course of about a year of looking for the next job, taking a few things, I kept having friends come to me and say, hey, we've got this project in our ESG department or our sustainability department. Could you help us with it? Could you do this for us? Could you? And it was about a year in when my husband said to me, "Marcy, you have a company." And you've stopped interviewing. What a revelation. Only consulting. Maybe you need an LLC. And actually, I credit the folks at the local Chase Bank in River North and Chicago for being, like, you need to stop depositing consulting checks under your name. And you need to get the bank account. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. So, in earnest, the business started in 2018 when I left Arsler and really in truth, it started in 2019 when I finally admitted that I was a consultant and started company. I was on my own for three years and at the end of 2022, I was burned out to a point of no return. And it happened to be a decision to either let go of clients or to hire and become not just a business owner but a CEO. And so, in 2023, I made the decision to start to grow our company and have brought on the most amazing people who work alongside me with veerless, rebranded, under veerless. And now we're continuing to grow. We're a team of seven today and growing and it's been just a hell of a fun ride. I can imagine. I can imagine. We're working with companies all over the world. So, it's fun. You know, with your experience in, I believe you said the mining industry, correct? I'm curious to know what, in your opinion, most developed ESG trends from the mining industry to today. What have you seen? That's kind of the more pressing issues. I think the force of ESG has been the same no matter what industry you're in, right? And I always kind of go back to how we got here is coming out of World War II. I mean, if we even rewind back that far, for the first time ever, companies like Ford and, you know, Standard and Poor's and all of these companies were US Steel. We're for the first time expected to kind of help rebuild, right? To put people back to work to help rebuild. And what came out of that was this idea of corporate giving, right? So ESG is rooted in this sort of 1940s, 50s concept of corporate philanthropy of corporate foundations that then grew into corporate social responsibility that was sort of pushed by things like the Clean Air Act. And, you know, even when you go back to the 80s of things like Live Aid and we are the world and all the things that sort of pushed companies to get involved socially, that transitioned into kind of sustainability. And then later into ESG in a push for corporations to become more responsible, ethical, sustainable, a real change and shift after Enron and Lehman Brothers and all of the things that happen in those sort of corporate crises as well. So I think the whole world doesn't matter what industry you're in. Obviously, mining and metals, oil and gas, you know, sort of big electricity and all of those kind of pieces are more heavy on the environmental side and pushed in a different way. But every company in the world really has been on this journey from, you know, how do we stay involved? How do we make sure that we've got, you know, strong purpose, strong corporate social responsibility and now into what is sometimes called ESG and sometimes called a whole host of other things? Right. So many buzzwords. I don't care what you call it. Call it whatever it is. Just do the way. Just do the way. Just do the way. Reputation, honestly, but. Yes. Nothing like a crisis to hold you accountable for what you did, right? Of course. Of course. You know, never let a good crisis go to waste. I can't remember who's to be. I like that one. I like that one. Actually, that wasn't my own life. It's definitely interesting to see the evolution of ESG recently. I feel like in 2020, 2021, those years are really strong ESG years. We had a lot of pull for particularly the S at the time in ESG, the social components, as well as the environmental components. And now we're sort of seeing a shift away from it. So you look at ESG as we enter 2026. What feels fundamentally different from even a year or two ago? The truth is, externally, a lot of things feel different, right? We've seen, you know, you know, target and Costco and kind of the DEI on one side versus the other of letting go of DEI versus doubling down, right? We've seen the Trump administration really come after DEI more than ESG, but ESG on its all together as well. But internally as we look at our clients, as we work with companies in every kind of, you know, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, data centers, the real tone internally hasn't changed. And that's what's been exciting for me. Our tagline at Bearless is stay the course. And we really believe that when you make these commitments, you keep going. And the marching might get slower at some times and it might have some stops and starts and it might have things like the influence of an administration that's anti-DEI and anti-ESG. But I haven't seen the slowdown in the same way that we, the kind of the sky is falling way that we sometimes hear it. Okay. Go still there. ESG is still moving forward. But I think, you know, again, when you mentioned the COVID crisis, you know, if you had told me during 2021, when frankly, you know, I live in Minneapolis and target is a long time near and dear to my heart, I know, know and knew many of their ESG and CSR team members and still do. If you told me in 2021 that target would be in the place it is now, I would not have believed you because 2021, target walked through the pandemic as what I would consider one of the most responsible companies in the world. People felt comfortable going to target. They trusted target because the day COVID went into place, target had the plastic stintions up. It had wipes on the carts. It had, you know, they really worked hard to gain the trust of stakeholders and of customers walking into their facilities. And so to see them make this wholesale change and what they did following the George Floyd murder in Minneapolis was transformational. And so to see them take a big step back for that was heartbreaking for many of us in Minneapolis. And for people who love target all over, I wouldn't have believed you five years ago. So there are those, but I really do think target isn't anomaly, right? There are companies like target that have taken a big step back and they've seen the pain from it, right? One of our friends in sustainability and thesis put out a report called the cost of silence and it had some really important information in it. And target is seeing the cost of silence right now and the cost of pulling back. And I think we'll see them do a course correction in the future and we're already seeing that. So yes, there's all of that happening. But for every company we see like target or TSC, the companies that have taken these big steps back on, on DEI, there's Costco, there's Marriott. There's, you know, there's all these wonderful companies in the world that have said we say the course and we keep going. And we've seen that in sustainability. Yeah. No target, but target always takes my money every time I'm in there. I walk out with too many things I don't need. I'm like, was that sustainable of me? Yeah, I have friends who've gone full boycott on target. I've probably cut back. I haven't got, you know, so it's just, I haven't gone there. It's, you know, I didn't make this. It's been a couple of months for me as well. But I like what you said about ESG being this avenue of a way for brands to build trust with their consumers and their stakeholders and, you know, the entire public. So along with that, I'm going to jump into another section of ESG reporting data and auditing. So reporting, you know, has to be replicable, replicable, trustworthy. What does good ESG data actually look like moving forward in 2026? What are some of the biggest data integrity challenges you're seeing organizations struggle with today? Do you give us a little bit more insight into this topic? Yeah, absolutely. We spent an enormous amount of time in the last two years doing a lot of research that we put out this ball. It's called ESGPS, the idea of sort of a positioning system for ESG reporting. And we talk to investors all over the world because investors are really some of the chief users of sustainability reports of ESG reports. But of course, employees, consumers, regulatory agencies all use those reports as well. But investors are kind of, you know, they look at those reports all the time. They're kind of in that. So we use them as a litmus test for how people use reports for what data is good. What does data actually, what does good data actually look like? And you hit it right away, Cecilia, good data, first of all, replicable, right? That you can put the same data in your report every single year that you can trust that data, that it's clear that it has a process that you take every year. It's auditable. It's a sureable. The other thing I would say is that your data is rooted in materiality and in what is material to your company. Good point. You know, our dear friends at GRI, who I love and I still think GRI is very, very relevant. But back in the day when GRI first came out in 2000, I might get it wrong. I think 2005 was the entrance of GRI into the world in the global reporting index. GRI's premise was that every company in the world should report on the same things, right? That notion is kind of gone now, right, that we recognize that what target reports on is very different than what a professional services firm that has no buildings and has no, you know, stores and footprint and shipping reports on, right? So you first need to look at your company and say, what is material to us, right? You can't ask a company that is 100% remote and doesn't have any products to report on biodiversity, right? But you also can't, you know, you have to sort of figure out what those things are. And so to me, what I look for in reports in terms of good data is do you know why that data matters to your company and have you told me in the report why that data matters and what you're doing with it. So I think that's, you know, replicability matters, consistent clear metrics matter and being able to show that data and a trend line year over year. Transparency. And how are you seeing that reporting of data transformed in 20 days? Because I feel like when reporting is still coming about and many people say it still is, but I feel like we're a little bit more in the mature phase now that as new data techniques come out as companies increase their reporting, it seems as though that they're creating more emissions because of their advanced reporting. But they're actually just reporting more. Yeah. So how do you see those changes in 2026? Are companies really, you know, meeting the moment? Are they getting ahead or is it just sort of an assignment space right now? Yeah. I mean, I do feel like companies are consistently getting ahead and, you know, good exam, and I think that's what I think is really important. And I think that's what I think is really important. There are much bigger impacts you can have as a company. When you're thinking about shipping. And long-term value chain initiatives. And all the things that are going on. Where if you take your emissions here in this small facility down to zero. That's great. But that's about the impact of closing a super wallmark. Somewhere all over the world. Right. And so we've got to get into this. We have to really get a sense of what is truly impactful for your company. And what's truly impactful for the world. And you know, that might not be getting to net zero. It might be doing something different. And so I think great reporting. Leans in on what is best for your business. For your sales. stakeholders and really makes the good faith effort of, we wanna do the best we can. And that might not be getting to zero, it might be working on embodied carbon or it might be working on materials in our buildings. And that might be a really significant reduction, but it might not get us to zero. - Yeah, and some of those things, I'm sure in your experience, you realize it might not be measurable. - Yeah. - Even biodiversity impacts, like those are measured in years and decades to come. - Yeah. - But it's still so important to invest in, and I feel like a lot of times companies are so hyper focused on those emissions. - Yeah. - And you mentioned things being material. Can you explain what that means to the listeners? And maybe you can get into a little bit about a materiality assessment. - Yeah, absolutely. So the idea of materiality and financial materiality is an accounting term, right? So when we go back sort of CPAs look at topics, related to a business. So of course your, you know, the cost of capital is material to a company. The cost of employees is material to a company. What sort of ESG-focused materiality does is adds to that sense of what is material to your company when you consider all stakeholders, right? So your emissions are material. Your, you know, if you're manufacturing because you're noise levels are material to the people who live and work around your facility. How much you pay your employees is material to the people who work for you and the people who buy your products, right? So the idea of materiality is what is relevant, you know, replace the word materiality with relevance and it's sometimes easier to get is one of those things. There's been a rise in the last few years of what's called double materiality, which looks at all aspects of materiality. So is it financially material to the company and is it material to the global planet and people around you, right? So when you look at it, I'm trying to give a good example, but I don't know that I can find one, but when you look at a company that, you know, maybe professional services might be a good point, right? So if you look at a company like McKinsey, right? What's McKinsey's largest climate emission? People from their company who fly all over the world, right? That's their largest climate. That's their largest choice. Right? That's their largest emission is flying all over the world. They don't have, they have offices, but they don't make anything, they don't ship anything, they just fly their consultants all over the world. So in truth, financially, emissions might not be super material to them. It is because they're a huge company, but let's protect. But to people in the world, to their customers, to the value chain that they serve in terms of corporations, it is material, right? So even though it might not be strictly financial material, it is material when it comes to the planet and the people you serve and you're stakeholder. So it's that kind of double lens that's happening as well. So companies all over the world do what are called materiality assessments to look at the whole range of ESG topics and say which of these topics are material to us? Do we is water really material to us, right? And we saw this back going back to like the 2015s. We saw a lot of companies put out like net zero water goals or zero water or zero, you know, and a lot of those companies didn't use much water, right? It's really easy to put a lot of these. A low water goal when you don't use much water, where and this is what I always felt in the steel industry, right? Like largest, the steel industry is the largest corporate consumer of water in the world. If I could help diminish our water consumption by 1%, that was bigger than IKEA getting rid of all of their water. Right? And so it's like, let's find those places of what's really material to you because we don't as consumers as stakeholders, I don't want you to set a goal that's easy to meet tomorrow, right? I want you to really recognize what's material to you and set the goals that are tough, that get you there and tell me how you're doing on it. Right. A challenge. I could have really used this debrief on materiality when I was taking my accounting class, you know? But if anyone's taking accounting, I hope this helped you out because it would have helped me out at the time. But it's a really interesting topic, you know, figuring out what you are responsible for and what to prioritize first. And I can only imagine that leaders, you know, at these companies or at these initiatives may feel overwhelmed with the amount of regulation, data, and politics surrounding this entire topic. So if you have any advice for them on maybe some of the first things they should focus on right now as we enter 2026 in these new trends, what would your advice be to these leaders? My advice to ESG leaders, sustainability leaders or anybody in any company that wants to have an impact on this is get out of ESG sustainability mindset and get into your business, get into your business. Because you can walk into a CEO's office or into, you know, an SVP's office and say, hey, I want to talk to you about admissions, right? And it will go in one ear and out the other. You can walk in and say, hey, let's talk about philanthropy, let's talk about volunteerism, let's talk about, you know, these wonderful things that we all want to do because that's the world we live in and we are passionate about it. And it'll go in one ear and out the other. But if you walk into that same person's office and you say, hey, I've noticed that our energy pricing at this facility is really high. And if we actually invested in low carbon, you know, whatever it might be, lighting, you know, LED lighting is always the easy go. But if we invest in this, this, and this, we can actually save money and impact our GHG emissions. And it has a, you know, net value of this or an ROI of this, then they hear you, right? If you can get yourself close to the business, what the business means, what the levers are that are getting pulled in the business to make it more profitable, to make shareholders more profitable, to make all stakeholders happy, that's where ESG really, really thrives. - No, yeah, I agree. - So we feel like you're banging your head. And that's what, and I always tell people, I used to tell people this on my team at Arsler, like if you feel like you're banging your head against the wall, it's because you're probably at the wrong wall, right? So find the better place to open the door, to those executives. And what do they love about them, where they care about things. - Yeah. - And hopefully, then you can bring them on to the things you care about as well. - We talked about that so much at Trellis. I used to work at Trellis Group, and we spoke a lot about how often time to see if those biggest ally is the CFO, not even their own team. - So this is really important to understand like that cross-dipartmental collaboration within ESG. Like we often talk about on the podcast, Sustainability should never be silenced, the Sustainability Department, and also everybody's job should incorporate sustainability. - Yeah, the shift we've seen in the last few years too, is from away from these big ESG departments, right? There used to be this kind of like, grow your ESG department. How much head count can you get? And now it's small center, small ESG center, and cross-functional collaboration and accountability all across the business. - I love that. We're gonna do a quick pause on deep dives for a second because we wanna get your quick, un-filtered, rapid fire style takes on a few reporting and ESG controversy. - Okay. - So, I like to do it. - You just have to say the first thing that comes to mind, no explanation needed. - Okay. - Yes. - So, number one, consolidating all ESG reports, helpful or ahead eggs. So, for example, SASB, GRI, TCEFD, CDP, all in one big giant report. - Helpful. - Okay. - Very helpful. They all now have interoperability indexes and I appreciate it. - All right. Okay. Number two, true or false, most companies actually trust their own ESG data. - True, the lawyers wouldn't let us put it in if they didn't. - Okay, good point. - What's the biggest red flag you see in ESG reports right now? - Whole sale changes from year to year, right? If you're not reporting on the same data year over year or if you suddenly erase a bunch of data that was in your report last year, it makes me go, "Ooh, what happened there, guys? "What are you not telling us?" (laughs) - SAS. - Mission. - Okay, next one is, one ESG metric companies think matter, but maybe doesn't. This is a hot take, but any connection to the UNSGGs. - Okay, we love hot takes. - Oh, it's dead. Yeah, it's dead. Leave it alone. - You heard it here, folks. It's dead. (laughs) - Sorry, you pay. - Sorry, you win. - I love you. - They didn't even great with that graphic design though. - They've colors and those squares. - It's beautiful. (laughs) - Okay, one ESG data point company's ignore, but absolutely shouldn't. My like, hill I will die on is if you do nothing in ESG, calculate the amount of capital expenditure in your company that is related to ESG. So ESG-related capex is the data point that will change the game in ESG. - Okay, free advice here. - It seems like we need a whole episode just on that. - We're gonna do a whole episode on ESG-related capex. - Maybe next time. Next up is, "Which departments of the business do you think are most critical to driving ESG?" - All of them. - Okay. - I think that cross-functional effort, small center, make sure that all of them are connected. all of the major, if there's like a SVP that doesn't have anything to do with ESG, again, you failed. Like get every member of the leadership team should have skin in the game. I like that. What's one misconception about ESG that you hope disappears in the next year? Um, that Republicans hate ESG because they don't, and they actually Republicans are sometimes the biggest proponents of environmental causes in the world. Ducks unlimited, trout unlimited, heavy red states. They care about the environment. They might care about it for different reasons than we do, but they care about it. And I think this idea that Republicans hate ESG is a misnomer, and it's been fed to the world by propaganda, make us like Fox News and it's not cute. It's not cute. This is really interesting, I see, because I feel like sustainability has become so partisan. And a lot of people are talking about and seeing on the news the Trump administration's direct comments on that. And of course, the Trump administration does not reflect the views of all Republicans. Let's settle that right here on the podcast. 100%. But how do you think this administration's influence on ESG discourse is just creating uncertainty or isn't creating a tendency? Yeah, how are companies navigating that? Yeah, this administration has caused every leader, not just in ESG, but in every area of business to pause, right, to take a second and go, wait, are we going to be called onto the carpet if we do X, Y or Z? But when you actually, you know, get down to it with the lawmakers, with the regulators, with the people who are doing the work, it is very difficult to find someone who truly, truly at their core disagrees with ESG and DEI. It's really hard to do that when you break things down, right? They've made this like anti-woke narrative to get people angry, right? For no reason. I would, I would, I've never found a person who doesn't want clean air and clean water. Right. It's like you would never hate her to society if you don't like ESG. I've never found a person who truly wants discrimination. Now, that's not true. There are a lot of ways, premises who don't, who truly do want discrimination. But like at our core, most people in this country and around the world want people to have fairness. They want people to have opportunity. The problem comes when someone thinks that their opportunity is being taken by any of these things, right? And I think, but there are so many more ways to find common ground. And, you know, I see, I grew up in North Dakota. I grew up in a deep, deep red state. And a lot of my family is in that, that camp. And sometimes those things are hard. But when you dig deep on the values, the true values at the core and strip away Fox News or whatever, you know, those, those sort of places might say, whatever they might say. And you go, do you really care about people? Do you really care about planet? They do. And I think we've really let ourselves get into a place where we believe that it's an us versus them mentality. And I just, I don't believe that. I think, I think that there's more alignment and there's more connection than we think there is. I mean, it's, listen, I'm not going to lie, it's been a hard year for anybody in sustainability. It's, it's been a tough year, right? But there are those places that are real, that are really hopeful, right? And, you know, I think the youth of the world are one of those places that we can, can lean in, right? Because when you look at the number of, for instance, Gen Zers who voted for Trump versus Gen Z versus baby boomers, like voters over 65, right? And then you look at the same, there was, I was just looking, there's a study, I'll find it and send it to you guys. Oh, Deloitte Global Gen Z in Millennial Study, that 60% of under 30 people who voted for Trump still believe that the effects of climate change are a really important topic, right? So it's really easy to be like, Trump voters don't care about this, right? Well, young Trump voters do older Trump voters might not, right? And that might change. And so it's just what are the things that we can lean in on that we can find those common places in? Definitely. I think common ground is such an important topic in any part of sustainability. And, you know, with, you mentioned all these different narratives that get thrown around these anti-woke narratives, or maybe these Fox News narratives can be hard to navigate for people that are trying to learn about the impact that this topic brings. So I'm curious to learn more about how sustainability messaging and ESG messaging, how can companies drive proactive campaigns and messaging to the public that doesn't cross the line of greenwashing or maybe some of this woke narrative propaganda. Where's the line here? I mean, I think it's about getting really authentic of, again, broken record, but what matters to your business and what matters to your stakeholders? One of the things that I've seen, you know, happen in ESG reporting, right, is people hate putting like feel good stories in ESG reports. Like, oh, that's not a big enough impact, right? That thing that we did at this facility where we removed all plastic, right? That's just that feels greenwashy. And it's like, wait a minute, hold on. Come back because to those folks in that facility that feel proud of water bottle recycling or, you know, water bottle stations or plastic recycling, that matters to them. And if you're trying to stand on that as the only thing you do, that's greenwashing, right? If you're trying to, you know, only put some plastic water bottle, you know, fills and nothing else, then sure there's some greenwashing there. But I think the big thing in communications is it has to feel authentic and it has to matter to you. So if, you know, if that initiative, however small it might be, matters to your people, matters to your stakeholders, then it's important and it matters to where you go. And so, you know, I think we've gotten really concerned about greenwashing in a way that is like, yeah, you know what? Put stories out there that connect to your stakeholders. And that's a big thing too of make sure you know what your stakeholders want from you. And build up stakeholders. We have a, we use the phrase, "sq." Build up stakeholder intelligence in what you do. Do you know your stakeholders well enough to know what they want from you, what they're missing from you, right? And how do we go through that process? We just did a materiality study for a company that has incredibly high scores by all regulators and rankers in environment. They do great things. They have wonderful GHG reporting. And what we heard from their teams, what we heard from their actual staff members are, I see that we do all the straight environmental work and I see it in our reports, but I'm frustrated because there's still Styrofoam in my office as all of them. Yes. And what you said is so important. Yeah. So it's like, and I get it because the guys sitting in their environmental office are thinking about emissions in a big macro level and they're not going down to like, well, did Patti from HR and the party and have a budget Styrofoam? Patti? Patti? Patti? I think Patti was. I think Patti was. And I think about this too, even with our generation, because it's like, we are so focused on holding companies accountable that we are forgetting to do individual action. Like, Gen Z, we've hit the mark on understanding that like 100 companies are responsible for 70% of emissions. But what about our own like abilities to compost? Because people are like, well, it doesn't matter what we're doing. It all comes from the top. It still does. It's a combination of both. And what you said is so important about like not letting greenwashing lead to like green hushing. Like, let's still talk about these things. And it has to go both ways, right? We've also all met that person who like thinks that straws are the most evil thing that's ever happened in the world. And it's like, okay, calm down. It's the campaign fault for making it seem like it was just being dealt with. I hate you, but you know, let's take a healthy understanding of what real environmental impact is, right? So you have to do the things that make a difference. And that's, you know, I work in this every day and my advice to people all the time is like, you can't be great at everything, right? Like, I can't recycle everything in my house and compost and not buy from Amazon and drive an electric car. Like it will kill. There's too many things to do. It will kill you. And it's, you know, take one thing, one of my, I'll give, I know this is coming out in January. One of the things I do every year is I set a sustainability resolution. So I pick one thing, like one sustainability topic I've done animal testing in cosmetics was one of my years. I eliminated all of those. I last year we did sustainable chicken. This was my husband and I both eat a lot of like breaded chicken and we were looking for a breaded chicken that is not, it is not bad for the world. And my next year, my 2026 school is sustainable seafood and, you know, really investing and learning how to cook more seafood, more types of seafood and seafood that comes from sustainable farmers and and fishers. And so, you know, it's like find that one thing and hook onto that one thing and then let yourself off the hook. Yeah, it makes you feel better for whatever you want to do. Yeah, we've talked a lot about this in the podcast, you know, how to prevent burnout with all these different things that there is to do. Like you mentioned, so I really like this idea of the resolution. You know, this episode's going to come out early January. So to finders, take, take this advice. Give yourself a resolution. Now I have to think about mine too. Yeah. So yeah, I was going to ask you, do you have any on your mind? Not yet. It's, um, I do want to get, I would like to get into composting, but it is a little bit hard, you know, living in an apartment building. But maybe I can make it work somehow. I've seen those like really fancy like compost bins. DC has great compost collection services. I, I mean, I live in New York. I use ground cycle for those who are listening. It's great. They come to your door. But you got me thinking about my resolution. I've been thinking so much about sustainable gifting and hosting because I host these all. So that's all I hosted. So I'm like, if I'm having parties, can I shop at the farmer's market for those events, even if that means an extra $15, it's like, well, then I'm leading by example. And maybe some of my guests can, can follow suit and it tastes better and it tastes better. And just like giving a gift of like an experience or like we talked about this on the last episode. Um, and I actually gifted my friend an Amtrak credit instead of a physical gift this year. So I was really happy. I took a lesson. Um, I loved the resolution. I like it too. And one question I had for you, Marci, is another one of my resolutions is to be able to speak to these current events more. Say up to date. How do you recommend our definers to keep up to date on the constant changes that are happening with these regulations? Like where any find your information? Yeah. I mean, um, you know, ESG dive is is probably one of my favorite trellis where, you know, you guys are familiar and have have been a part of what they do. Trellis is awesome. Um, you know, there's great, great work out there. I also stay, you know, we're in the consulting industry and consultants like us and the, the sort of big dogs, Deloitte, PWC, EY, um, put out incredible thought leadership, um, for their clients, for the general public. So, um, follow consultants like us, like Deloitte, like Enthesis, um, you know, they are outweir always, you know, it's part of our marketing to put out really good understanding of what's happening in ESG in the terms of like short white papers and one pages and blogs. So, um, those are great places to, to read and to stay connected as well. Um, you know, and then I just, I always invest in great journalism, right? Um, so the New York Times and, and, you know, uh, Washington Post and all of those, those great companies at Bloomberg and, and the companies that are really investing in climate, um, Bloomberg climate section is fantastic, you know, so stay, stay in, in the company of those great places that are doing the work. Um, but yeah, ESG dive is, is probably my favorite ESG, um, uh, website as well and they do a great job in Sodistrelus. I'm going, thank you. Very nice. Well, we've talked a lot about the dynamic circling ESG trends, some of the challenges as well as given advice to people entering the field or leaders working in the field. Um, as we wrap up the episode, uh, you know, this episode is coming out at the beginning of the year. So it is like a year snapshot and what to expect in this next year. So I wanted to ask, what do you think will define ESG success by the end of 2026? Yeah, I really think there's, um, a return in ESG right now to purpose, um, and to getting close to why we do this in the first place at each of our companies, right? Um, regulations matter and they will always matter. Um, but what needs to lead ESG inside companies is a true sense of purpose in the company. Why are we here? What are our values? And it's up to us to do what is right for our, our stakeholders, for our, our team. Um, we have a wonderful client that has a lot of their leaders that are based in the south and, um, one of their manufacturing guys in a very thick southern drawl said to me the other day, you know, we got to make money, Marcy, but we also have to do what's right. And I just, you know, I was expecting somebody like that to come at you with, with those kind of pieces. And I think, you know, that might be a little polyanna in terms of like the old school purpose and corporate social responsibility, but I think it's what gets us there, right? The regulations push and leaders push, but what really makes companies tick is, is doing what moves the world forward. Mm-hmm. My, my passion. Yeah, one of my dear friends is Dory McWorter, who's now the, um, CEO of Chicago's, um, executives network and she always says the purpose of business is to move society forward. And that to me, if you can really lean in on what is your company's purpose? Because it's not to make widgets. It's not to, you know, the reason you make the product you make or the reason you sell the service you sell is to help someone or to change something. And if you can lean in on that and really get close to the purpose of your business, I think that's where ESG is going. Um, and, you know, yes, regulations will continue and all the things that go on that, but what we keep saying is, let's lean into what your company needs and what can really make a difference for you. Yeah. Purpose and accountability. I, I could see that driving change because if you don't, if you don't feel purposeful about something, then you're just really adhering to the regulation and it's sort of like a passive ESG commitment. Yeah, none of us want to be box checkers. Like that's not. Yeah, not fun. No room for creativity. Yeah. Before we wrap up, I have to ask you our famous question that we ask every single one of our guests, which is our party fact question. So you were at a party and you were trying to just throw something, shocking out there, a fun fact. What would you say? Oh my gosh, a party fact question, fun fact. I mean, I guess my, like I'm a thing I'm nerdy about. I'm super, super nerdy about the crisis at Enron and what happened at Enron and my fun fact is that if Enron had done what they really wanted to do, we would live in a solar-powered clean energy world. So that's a real empire. A really good example of how corporate greed can really put off corporate purpose. But if you dive into Enron and what their original purpose was, it would have changed the game and I wish I wish Enron had lived and succeeded. RIP. We bet actually shocks me. I am going to look into it. This could be a whole other episode. We're going to have to bring you back for this conversation. So I've been working on a book that I've been diving heavy into into the Enron crisis. Okay. Well, whenever this book gets published, please let us know so we can talk about it on the podcast and read it. It would be a very full circle moment. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. Yes, thank you again for coming on the podcast and explaining to us, you know, everything to do with ESG. I hope everyone took something home with them, something they learned and bring it into their place of work, their whatever they do in life and purpose. You know, amazing. I loved it. And Marcy, if you haven't already, I hope you consider becoming a professor. Oh, thanks. That's the, I would love that's my retirement goal. So that's, you know, always always the goal to teach. You're already writing books, so you're almost there. Yeah, but I've learned a lot. I'm really good. Honestly, Cecilia, after that interview, I kind of feel less concerned about the state of ESG. I mean, obviously, I'm relieved. Right. Like, the political landscape is concerning, but again, a little bit. It's very, but it's nice to know that companies are still trekking ahead that things are changing, but that just means for more integrated sustainability department across companies. I think that one of the beautiful things about being in sustainability and being human is that we're constantly evolving. Very true. That's, I mean, a reason why I love the sustainability field is that it's very dynamic and you're always learning and there's always a new part of the wicked problem, you know, to keep in mind to navigate whatever. It's a lot of fun, but it is very challenging. And I think like what you said, Nathra, is very important. This is a tough time when things are changing, but at the end of the day, I really feel like the power is on the consumer. We are the ones that are demanding transparency. We want to see things change. Tony's took a lonely, for example, as doing a great example and role in doing that and being transparent and showing the consumers where the chocolate actually comes from. So again, to wrap this up, vote with your dollar definers, demand transparency. Exactly. And don't lose hope in ASG and these frameworks. They're still necessary to keep the conversation going and to keep accountability going, just because we're in a time where the administration might not necessarily agree. It doesn't mean we just throw all caution to the wind and give up on these practices that have been really shaping the world. new ways. So with that being said, that's a wicked problem. That's a wicked problem. With that being said, we are so grateful for you, Definers. This has been another episode on the podcast. I'm your host, Nathra. Our first of the year. First of the year. And I'm your host Cecilia. We hope you guys enjoyed this episode and happy new year. Thank you, Definers. We'll see you next time.