Ep. 943: Did a 3-Year-Old Really Shoot Another Hunter?

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. If you open your truck door in October and it looks like a hurricane rolled through a sporting goods store, you are dealing with something called cab chaos. On washboard, dirt roads, loose vinyls slide off the seat, gear rolls across the floorboards, water bottles are everywhere. Well, FHF Gear, an ex-Overland, built a modular system engineered to keep your gear organized while driving. You can anchor the bulkhead panel between your front seat, snap on the Waypoint GP pouch for your optics and other gear, and you can mount a FlexMed kit right on your headrest, plus a whole bunch more. Keep your cab dead quiet and staged for every pursuit at FHFGear.com. Welcome to the news show, everybody. This week, we've got details about a youth turkey hunt shooting in which a three-year-old shot, another child. Coloradans will have a chance to assert their American-ness on November 3. Those of you who don't think you need help calculating your own ratios when grinding burger actually do need help, and we're here to provide that help. We got snow goose news out of Maryland and elsewhere. The Posh Mountain. What was that, Yanni? I didn't say anything. I thought he said something. Dude, I was getting people. I was getting people hyped for the show. Now I'm like. I literally just scratched my lip. Now we, like, lost the audience. Bring him back. Bring him back, buddy. The Posh Mountain town of Bozangeles, Pilates capital of America, where we're sitting right now, just lost 14 black bears that the state had to euthanize because some dude was running a seemingly non-hunting bait pile. That titillates him. And more. But first off, let's dig into the youth turkey tragedy with the one and only Pat Durkin. Thanks for joining, Pat. Well, you bet. Thanks, Steve. Can you quickly remind. We talked about this. Can you quickly remind people at a very. Like, give a very quick overview of what happened last spring in terms of the initial news that came out, right? Just, like, the basics with the ages. Because we commented on the story, but all we had was some basic numbers. So can you recap those numbers? Sure. This happened during the state's annual youth turkey season. It's a two-day season. It starts mid-April. It was done in Racine County, which is just south of Milwaukee. And Racine County also borders Lake Michigan. So it's really the far southeastern county in Wisconsin. It happened on a public land. It's about a two-square-mile area. And it involved a deputy with the Racine County Sheriff's Department. And he was. The guy's 35 years old. And apparently he was mentoring, he said, his three-year-old daughter. Oh, I didn't know that it was a daughter. It was his daughter. And he was carrying a 12-gauge shotgun and blind calling. Apparently walking around, calling. He's never taken a hunter education course, but he's a military veteran. And in Wisconsin, we exempt veterans from needing to take hunter education. He later told investigators that he really had not hunted much before this incident. And he was usually hunting with his friends. But that day, he was hunting by himself. He was also. So another interesting thing about this is. Well, Pat, can I butt in real quick? Do you mind just laying out. Do you mind just laying out the. Just for people that haven't heard our coverage before. Yeah. Do you mind laying out the original story? Just the cleanest, most bare-bones version of the original story you can think of. Yeah. Which would be the three-year-old during youth turkey season. I'll do it, then you can dive in. Okay. No, you go ahead. Well, I'm asking for a second. Second time. Go ahead, Pat. You do it. I see that anti-Pat Durkin sign behind him. I'm sorry, Steve. But yeah, basically, a man took his daughter out hunting. She was being mentored, apparently. He lined the shot up and then had her touch the trigger when he told her to shoot. And inadvertently, he had mistaken movement 40 yards away for a turkey. And he ended up shooting a man. And he ended up shooting a man who was there mentoring his seven-year-old son. It turns out this man was actually a co-worker, a fellow deputy in Racine County, the Sheriff's Department. And the shot hit these guys pretty hard. The man had his arm around his son, up like this, apparently around his shoulders. And so that got caught some of the shot. But the boy got the worst of it. He took multiple shots, pellets into the head. And upper neck and back area. And ended up in the hospital for a few days. And later, like in June, doctors removed every pellet they could from the boy. But he still had, to this day, has one pellet in his brain, one pellet in his skull, and one pellet in his spine. And the father, though, is doing well. He had 12 pellet wounds, including some in his arm and left hand. But basically, his left side. But his body got hit. When this story was originally reported, for many months, the only details that were out there was that a person mentoring a three-year-old child, that the three-year-old child had shot another pair of hunters. And then you've followed this story and have uncovered these other details. Where did you learn, for instance? Well, we had this original question of how capable is a three-year-old of even aiming a gun? And we were even wondering, like, three-year-olds still soil themselves on a regular basis. So how is a three-year-old capable of wielding a, was it a 12-gauge or 20-gauge shotgun? It's a 12-gauge. So how is a three-year-old even shooting a 12-gauge shotgun? Right. Well, where did you learn this detail that. That the mentor was holding the shotgun and the kid's job was to reach over and pull the trigger? And does that even warrant, does that even count as a mentored hunter? Right. Well, this is where it gets really interesting, Steve, is that the state does not really specify what it takes to be a mentor and what it takes to be a mentored situation. And so, like, this case, it said right in the initial report of the incident was that the guy had rested the shotgun. He had rested the shotgun on a log, and he had aimed it, and that his daughter was then instructed to touch the trigger and basically trigger the shot when he said so. And, you know, I'm like you. I have grandkids. I have had my own daughters, and I have a hard time understanding how any three-year-old would even comprehend what they're even doing at that point. Oh. So are they, in this case, are they looking into. Was that even, does that even count? Well, you know, all the criminal complaint does is state what the charges are. And this guy has been charged with four felonies. Okay. Two felonies per victim. And it's basically, let me see, just real quickly, it's second-degree reckless injury with use of a dangerous weapon and injury by negligent use of a dangerous weapon. And it's basically, let me see, just real quickly, it's second-degree reckless injury with use of a dangerous weapon. Two different counts, you know, one each for, I mean, two each for these victims. And so the guy's facing, like, up to $70,000 in fines and, you know, up to 42 years in prison if the terms are all laid out consecutively. So the state obviously is taking this very serious. I also didn't know until you, it doesn't really change anything, but I didn't know until you just said it right now that it was his daughter. I just had made this, I had made this assumption. Yeah, initially. Because 90% of hunters are men. I'd made an assumption that it was his boy. Yeah, initially, the Department of Natural Resources and local sheriff's department did not release details on gender or names, of course. And so all we had at first was that it was two people who had been shot, and you kind of assumed it was a father and son who got shot, and, you know, it's also shooting. But, yeah, as the case got explored and, you know, more information came out, then we learned it was a daughter involved. And then in your reporting, you found out some details that these, it's just crazy, but the shooter and the victim were not strangers. No, no. You know, the initial report was that they assumed these guys did not know each other, but then they learned later that, actually, They were colleagues, you know, that the shooter had talked to. is his coworker, a fellow deputy, about places to hunt nearby. The guy gave him some information, but asked him not to hunt these spots. And I saw, I watched some of the camera interviews they did with this guy that came out when the criminal complaint was released. And it sounds like he was under the assumption that this other guy and his son had not stayed in the area that they had left. - Okay. So this guy had shared information with them. Like they knew each other, they had shared information, but they were not out hunting together by any means. They would have had no idea that each other was in the same area. - Right. Neither of those guys knew the other guy was anywhere near them. And the father and son were watching a field. They did not have any decoys out, but they were calling occasionally. The father was calling occasionally. And then, what I don't know, and isn't in any of the reports so far, that the criminal complaint is whether this guy sneaked in with his daughter and set up on them, or if they just happened to be sitting nearby and then spotted this movement after the calling. 'Cause apparently a shot went off right after this father with his son had been calling and had moved his hand. So I'm guessing he was using like a slate call or a box call or something, 'cause he told investigators, that when the shot happened, it was just seconds after he had called. And he figures it was his hand that was moving that got the guy's attention. - Sometimes you hear these stories and you just can't make any sense out of it. That here's a guy, assuming he wasn't gobbling, assuming he wasn't gobbling. - Right, right. - He's talking about using a slate call. This hunter is, I mean, get in this guy's head a minute. This hunter is hearing turkey noises. Not only does he think he's aiming at the thing's head, but he's talked him into self-- - I don't think he is thinking he's aiming at the thing's head. - Well, yeah, but I mean, he's also talked himself into thinking that it's a gobbler, that it's a male turkey. - He's a very inexperienced hunter, like that's-- - Right. - When our friend Robert Abernathy was shot while turkey hunting, and the man that shot him explained to him, when you put-- Well, Robert Abernathy, when he got shot by number five shot, he was sitting there looking down a hill and lifted his foot up on a stump to kind of lean into the stump. The guy that shot him explained, when you lifted your foot on that stump, it looked just like a gobbler going into strut. - Oh, like people invent stuff in their book. - Yeah. - But what is this guy inventing in his brain? The whole picture. - Well, it's a great question, Steve, 'cause he did tell these investigators that he thought he saw red and blue, apparently, and they checked with these guys, the victims, and neither of them was wearing anything red, blue, or white to resemble a turkey's head. They were wearing camo, but nothing that, we're all taught in hunter education, turkey education, never to wear red, white, or blue out in the field during turkey season. But from what I could gather watching this recorded interview with the guy afterward by investigators, he claimed he saw these colors, but you know, every time you read about hunter accidents like this, the shooter almost always builds things into the scene that just were not there. - Got it. - They get excited, and they see things that really aren't there, and apparently, the same thing happens in police shootings, where they just see things that didn't, in the moment, there is that stress, that buck fever, whatever you wanna call it, and it does work on people's imaginations. - Oh yeah, 'cause he heard the bird, even though he didn't hear a gobbler, he heard a hen, most likely, calling. - Right. - And then there was a flash of movement in the brush, and I still believe that he shot, and not his three-year-old daughter. - Oh. - No. - I believe that he, I would believe that, I would accept that he had her reach over and punch the trigger, maybe. - Yeah, he had her positioned, apparently, like, you know, apparently like in his lap, he was sitting there and had her in the lap. But yeah, it says, in every report I've read on this, it says he aimed the shot. You know, he had the gun against his shoulder, basically all she'd do is reach up and push on the trigger. - Yeah. - And then he was shot, and he was shot, and he was shot. - Yeah. - And then he was shot, and he was shot. - Yeah. - Yeah. that we had already covered there okay you were going down the path of mentioning that um he had an exemption from hunter safety yeah and what can you can you explain that exemption yeah this this is to me one of the intriguing uh points of the story because it's it's become kind of a a little um hot button topic for um the hunter education people in wisconsin wisconsin and 15 other states have had this exemption where if a man or a person have served has served basic training in the military they exempt them from hunter education training and the hunter ed people i know who have contacted me about this they're really upset that wisconsin ever gave that exemption because they just don't think the basic training we receive in the military qualifies anyone to go hunting that is a whole different dynamic involved in teaching someone how to shoot rifles and and various weapons in the military compared to what we see in the in hunting what we you know experience out there in the field i think that it would cover that is a weird one to me i think it was yeah it i'm guessing that it's motivated more by trying to do a solid yeah for veterans and and help them you know and and try to be helpful to that community yeah but i would imagine you've been through boot camp i have not but i'm guessing that boot camp they're assuming that that you're learning some safe firearm handling practices right but you're not learning but but but 90 percent of the curriculum would have no business being in basic training right yeah when i think back steve on this like i was i was in the navy my entire hands-on work and in basic training with firearms was was toting around uh an a303 springfield with a piece of wood shoved down the barrel so it couldn't be fired and then on one day we went to the training we shot 22 rifles for half the morning and that was our introduction to firearms i never fired another gun the navy till i was out in the ship and then maybe once a year we got to shoot our m14s and maybe the um the old 45 caliber handguns but you know there's nothing about things like checking your your background and being able to shoot a gun and being able to shoot a gun and beyond those all the basic you know hunter education stuff we all learn yeah i wonder if they're going to wind up revisiting that because what you you have then is you have a case where it's like a you have a double problem i'm not saying it's a problem that you have necessarily a problem that you have a veteran who's skipped hunter safety out in the i think you're right that it's probably just done as a solid but gosh you look at um how the situation unfolded and you can't help but think well maybe this guy had a little background in hunter education which those of us who have taken that course in wisconsin it's pretty damn thorough and you it's nice things just stick in your head yeah i think that's a great point and i think that's a i guess i you know the one thing i'd say too is that i have a lot more concern with that law that exemption than i do with um you know like we changed our laws about 15 years ago first in 2009 they removed the 12 year old requirement in wisconsin and then like eight years later i think they yeah they lowered it to 10 age 10 and then like eight years later they lowered it to where they just got rid of it because like like i say 35 states don't have a age requirement and you know i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think that's a good point you know so these things are so unusual with kids getting involved in these mentored shootings it just seldom happens i'm not really sure i can see where people get get bothered by that and not having a age requirement i mean i had an age requirement but um gosh when you see something like this become it's so unusual it made it made news and when something made makes news it typically is something very uncommon so i hate to see us always running around passing laws every time one uncommon thing happens understood yeah it's interesting i philosophically i've been philosophically supportive of abandoning the really strict age requirement rules when i was growing up in michigan you had to be 14 to rifle hunt deer i think it's ridiculous no one waited that long i didn't wait that long yeah we all started early um everyone i knew started early uh that's too much philosophically i've supported abandoning age restrictions if i was gonna be in charge of brokering a national compromise and i had to pick a number this is gonna make all kinds of people riled up if i had to pick a number and i was gonna set the standard for all 50 states i would say 10 years of age that's that's what i would pick too yeah i would go 10 and just be like okay we're gonna settle it all 50 states right now wham 10 even at i feel like even at six or seven kids just don't yet know what they're actually doing this is striking a national compromise if i had to negotiate i would go into the negotiation being i'll settle at 10 i'll settle at 10 so my opening bid might be like how about eight maybe like no you can't do eight and i'm like okay 10 and it's a done deal i would settle at 10. good job steve man pat durkin thanks for coming on you bet steve thanks i gotta ask there's an anti-pat durkin sign hanging in the background there is that because of deer politics whitetail politics no actually that goes back to my very very early days as a sports writer in 1984 um i was i was covering a local um semi-pro basketball team and i wrote and i wrote some columns that that the fans didn't like and so um i got picketed at one of the games wow um yeah it'd be like had to be like seven six or eight people picketing me and even they even had um little buttons made with that thing my picture on it saying you know you know basically get rid of me and um how i came into possession of the sign though one of my co-workers who was at the game he ran ran out to the hall and he said you know i'm going to get rid of you and i'm going to get rid of you after after they got done picketing me and and he walked he walked up this guy holding that sign and says um i work with that guy he's a real asshole can i have the sign and then he brought up to me the next day at my desk and i so i built the frame for it and i've had it in my office ever since that's great man you gotta give him credit for like the civic engagement of that little town yeah for sure yeah i'd ask you if i could have that when you die but i don't want to wait that long long man that could be decades that could be 50 years hey pat before you send it sign it too would you anti pat durgan signed by pat durgan i i had i used to have one of the buttons too you know you just put on your sweater or a jacket but i i can't seem to find it lately son of maybe one of my kids took it all right pat we all love you man well thanks thanks for coming on dude bet you bet see you around i've had a helix mattress for five years and it's as comfortable as the day it arrived at my house and now i've never slept better what i really love is arriving home after a long hunt where i've been sleeping on a cot or the ground and crashing on my helix mattress it's one of the things i miss the most when i'm out chasing deer helix has over 20 mattress models so you can find the perfect one for you and they deliver right to your door with free shipping in the u.s there's a 120 night sleep trial and limited life time warranty plus they make it easy to return or exchange your mattress helix is the most awarded mattress brand tested and reviewed by experts like forbes and wired go to helixsleep.com slash medeator for 30 off that's helixsleep.com slash medeator for 30 off helixsleep.com slash medeator all 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head over to the first light contest page at firstlight.com fill out the entry form and you'll be able to win a prize package for a chance to win a prize package and you're in remember for every 25 spent you get 10 additional entries one winner will be selected to win the entire prize pack but don't wait around the giveaway ends monday october 12th 2026 at 11 59 p.m all right here's one me we got the meat grinding hold up hold up you're supposed to wait for sound man we don't have a good sound news oh that's pretty good is that a new one phil nope same one as always that's not bad our news okay so here's the other day one of one of our guy one of the eggheads upstairs here at the office he's not an egghead one of the tech guys he's dead guy i i got two tech issues lined up with him right now a phone and a computer problem he's a get after it hunter too man listen i know listen i was joking man i know he just told me a great story about getting a cow elk with his bone era um anyways i didn't mean to say that i was joking great guy upstairs great guy upstairs came to me and he says hey man we just made a ground meat a meat grind calculator and i said what kind of idiot needs that he goes what do you mean and i said well i can just do it in my head right now and i realized that for my entire life i've done it wrong where if if i'm i bet you that 99 of people would make the same problem i that's how i if i had 100 pounds let's say i have 100 pounds of deer meat and i want a 80 20 blend okay i want an 80 20 blend i have 100 pounds of deer meat well any idiot would know 20 that you put in 20 pounds mm-hmm that's not right that gives you a 16.7 percent i've been doing that my entire life wow mm-hmm yeah it would have been easier for you if you just every time done 80 pounds of meat you gotta think about the total that's where i was off yeah but i was telling him how dumb he was to make the calculator no so i'm looking at it right now so if you did if you did a you get 100 pounds of me it's really easy you go there you pick what percentage you want he's on the meat eater.com the meat calculator yeah or you can go custom your ratio and i did this to figure out what steve's was when he did 100 pounds of meat and he added 20 pounds of fat this says 20.5 gets you 17 percent okay so most of us if we're doing it this way you're light on the fat if you want a 20 percent uh uh fat ratio you'd go 100 pounds of meat you'd put in 25 pounds of fat god man i'm gonna have i'm changing my whole i'm gonna use this calculator so you go on this calculator you can how's it work you said you're gonna you're gonna have juicier burgers buddy you're gonna be blown away you pick your percentage you want you do 10 if you want lean 15 lean burger 20 classic 30 sausage or you can do a custom mix and then you either give them your amount of meat or your amount of fat and then it could work it backwards or however you need it what a great little tool and the graphic is a meat grinder that's got that's got spent that's got hunter spencer written all over it the graphic is a meat grinder that has like a calculator face on it very clever the meat grind calculator good job logan.com yeah we'll all be using that this fall that's a good little tool just to think i've been eating dry ass burger without even knowing it what probably happens i feel that my burger is perfect so when i use that calculator from now on too much fat in here i'm gonna type in 16.7 you might develop heart problems you you know that you're getting more dude that's a great calculator oh so remember when khrushchev you guys remember when khrushchev addressed the united nations these guys don't no i don't know if i do where's chef what was being addressed i don't know he's mad about being the soviet union i don't know hated america khrushchev last of the cold pull it up phil khrushchev if people think this is so long ago it's in black and white type in khrushchev eating the uh beating his he got so mad addressing the united nations you finding it yep looking it up he got so mad he took his shoe off oh there's a wikipedia article about it go on it's called the shoe banging incident yes so mad he took his shoe off and beat the podium can you pull it up phil yeah sorry one sec here i don't know what he's i'm sure he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think it was like i don't know what he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think it was like i don't know what he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think it was like i don't know what he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think it was like i don't know what he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think it was like i don't know what he's mad about the cold war i'm guessing i don't think it was like like he's like mad at his wife or guessing i don't think it was like like he's like mad at his wife or something he's probably mad about something he's probably mad about something he's probably mad about the cold war i'm really interested to the cold war i'm really interested to the cold war i'm really interested to see how you're going to segue this Well he already did I was trying to think of a way So I always No that's not it Phil That's some guy cleaning the retainer That's not Khrushchev Here he is Look at him So there's Khrushchev He's doing the Soviet thing There he is There he's got his shoe That's how pissed he is Look at the other guys laughing at him Yeah Except you're not pissed you're excited He means business But people don't know when I'm always sitting here Is I run around in hey dude shoes My normal ones, my old ones are very dirty But I got these brand new ones If you're in the market for some hey dude shoes We got these new ones out You get a first light pattern on there Two versions of them This is the one I wear all the time The first pair I ever got Jason Feltz bought them for me as a present Because I was in my Iron his This is years ago Well I mean you know It's a nice gesture It's an affordable shoe That's the shoe version and then there's like a slipper version Then there's an insulated slipper like a camp shoe Yeah Pretty sweet You can get them but you can't get them quite yet I haven't seen Randall take his off I think he sleeps in them Dude I wear mine all the time I like them Like when you get out of the woods you take your boots off I mean I just wear them to work anyway But it would be that and they're so lightweight I would Stick them in my bag But I've always been a big fan And wear them all the time So when we got a chance to put First light camel on Hey Dude Shoes I was all over it These are the Wally Funks But we also got the slip camp It's like an insulated one you slip into When it's cold out Hanging around deer camp I'll be taking those next week You can't get them yet though You gotta wait till October 13th But it's a limited run If you go to the meat eater store you'll find these shoes And then when you get mad at someone you can take it off Be like that's not what I meant Yanni shot my buck Shut up Yanni Stuff like that October 13th Heydude.com and the meat eater store you can find them at Okay moving on Oh your news Brought to you by Banish Suppressors which I'm holding in my hot little hand right here Um Steve's gonna have to go to the store Steve's gonna have to take his shoe off for this one Oh yeah I am gonna get that I might double do it Last week we uh I don't know if he ever got so mad he took both his shoes off But I can see you're about to Yeah last week we talked about The guy in Wyoming who shot a bull Uh grizzly He left it overnight A grizzly ate a little bit of it Came back cut the head off Took the head left the meat cause he's worried about The grizzly And Brody's a big supporter of this guy Listen Listen I understand why he did what he did You weren't there you didn't hear the debate Come on I said the guy screwed up We debated it a minute ago He weren't there for the whole conversation Anyway Who was there can someone recap Was Brody like Is apologetic on the original Go on I wasn't there I'm not ready to opine yet My shoes are on Um okay anyway we had a game ward not from Wyoming Write in about his take on this thing Um if he didn't But tell the tell the Can you tell the story Please just Sure Just just Okay I know people already heard it But just quickly tell the story I'll give the quick version Last year in September A guy was elk hunting Archery elk hunting Outside of Cody Wyoming In a very grizzly infested area Um he shot a bull elk In late afternoon Okay The bull walked off about a hundred yards They were in a pretty open area They watched it lay down It was late afternoon They came out Kept their eye on it Until dark And then they were like Don't know if it's dead or not We're gonna back out And come back in the morning Okay can I can I ask a clarifying question Sure I'm not gonna opine Yes you will No As you and I have discussed this Yes I've heard two Explanations for his thinking Mm-hmm And this is an important point The telling you just did He was doing more More of a It's hitting the guts It's laid down I don't want to bump it It'll die if I back off But in the other tellings When we've talked about this privately You've said I don't want to go You said that he thought I don't want to go in there Because of grizzlies No grizzlies were deaf Like he said Grizzlies were deaf They didn't want to necessarily Mess with it at night Okay But this is because Then Spencer's giving me a lecture Well Every deer hunter knows No I was responding That you would wait Until the next day To pursue a gut shot deer And I'm like I could see four hours I Listen I think it's a legitimate concern I gotta respond to that When you're done Brody Go ahead There's a legitimate concern Of bumping the elk There's a legitimate concern Of getting attacked by a grizzly Or a grizzly getting killed Which is also a gigantic headache Like The guy's concerns I think Were legitimate I told you I'm not gonna opine I know Well you can opine After I read it Can I read this Or do you got something To say Spencer This is all background Uh Steve was saying Before the show He said I didn't even finish the story Who leaves a deer overnight Or who leaves an elk overnight And I was like That's very common I told you It's like quite And It's the majority of people That don't care About the well being Of the meat Except I You left one overnight Depends You did You left an elk overnight Not when I can see it Laying there Okay But anyway To respond to Steve's Steve saying Who Who on earth does this This is a common practice The National Deer Association Says You hit one in the guts With a bow You wait 12 hours Uh Bow Hunter Magazine Says 8 to 12 hours TheMeatEater.com Says 8 to 12 hours Well that That person's not gonna be Working here in a couple hours Okay I'm sorry Mark Kenyon Alright We need to We need to move on Let me finish It's just a thing that's said It's a thing that's done People leave deer overnight When they have a marginal hit Because they don't wanna But he is looking at it It's dark It's Like it gets dark You should see my My flashlight I would've gone Every couple hours Shined over Mm-hmm Picked up its eyeshine Okay There's There's It's heads up Let's Let's hang tight Little Another hour later Little eyeshine You get Take a nap Let's do this Wake up Little eyeshine Let's do this Take a nap Wake up Oh He's dead Let's do this after I read Yeah But first I gotta finish the story They come back the next He comes back the next morning With some buddies Pistols drawn Uh They go The elk is dead Why are there pistols drawn? Because there's They're just Being ready They're They're baronoid We went in Pistols drawn To my moose That makes sense Anyway Um That's a good point But that was a different situation Anyway They get to the bull It's obvious there's been a bear on it Eating it The guts are ripped out There's bear shit all over the place And This man decides To leave the carcass Cuts the head off Takes it out Just the head No backstraps No meat No nothing And doesn't report this to the To the Fishing game department Now Let's move on to the The letter I don't opine yet No Let me get through the letter How was he caught? Wow I think you do have to explain that part of the story Okay So , there's a carcass laying there On his way out He lets some cowboys know That there's a Grizzly on a car There's a grizzly That has eaten some of his elk There's a carcass up there Stay away from it Okay Later I don't know how many days later Not probably not far Some hunters come across this carcass Headless Okay Which looks very suspicious Sure it does They report that to a game warden The game warden follows up He ends up talking to this guy And he says He takes the guy's I think his bow Like He confiscates The meat Or the head and the antlers And this guy eventually gets Goes to court He gets The game warden cites him He goes to court And fights the citation And gets out of the citation Hmm This is where we're at now In court Yes A six person jury What? Everybody's paranoid down there And one of the reasons Why is because Wyoming advises Not to mess with Okay Don't opine yet Okay I gotta get to this letter This is the reason We're here right now Okay A game warden wrote in He's not from Wyoming He's just giving A game warden's perspective Good morning Brody Just listened to your story From the news show About the hunter Abandoning his meat That a grizzly had claimed I can't speak for Wyoming But I thought I'd offer you some Perspective From a game warden's Point of view I understand And agree with The hunter Leaving the bull overnight I can also understand Leaving the elk Once he saw A bear had claimed it But There are several things He did Or didn't do That make a game warden Question his actions Number one He took the time To cut the head Off the elk And take that He didn't take the time To get any of the meat He questioned Whether it would be salvageable Due to being contaminated By the bear Surely there were parts The bear didn't didn't touch. Sounds like there was a group of guys with him several could have stood guard while he salvaged what meat he could then get the head last which is getting the head last is is a i know in this state it's a rule right pack the head out last that's the rule in alaska you can't move the all the meat has to move before the trophy that's my biggest problem with the whole thing he says he made note to tell several people in the area there was a grizzly on a carcass but he never reached out to game and fish that should have been his first call now game and fish gets a call about a headless elk a call that could have been headed off but but a game warden is thinking that this is poached or someone didn't care to get the meat because they were too lazy to pack it out sure there would have been bear sign at the carcass when he got the call but at that point there's no telling when the bear found the carcass now the game warden has to use his time and resources to track this guy down when he does the guy says well a bear claimed the carcass so i just took the antlers uh-huh right there were just too many fishy things going on with this case what he's saying is that the game warden was justified in issuing a citation um i also understand that wyoming has a warning about carcasses that have been claimed by grizzlies but that warning should come with a caveat of and immediately report to game and fish i feel the game warden was justified in writing the citation and i also agree with the defendant's right to take it to court and in this case he won we write citations to correct the behavior and i feel like this hunter will correct his behavior in the future lessons learned but calling in and being honest is always the best avenue to take do you need a drum roll for this no because he made all the points i i just i was gone so i wasn't here for that recording of the new show or i would have got this all off my chest earlier i'm sure this guy he's probably a he's a nice guy he's a nice guy he's a nice guy i'm sure he's i don't know yeah like give me the bed for the doubt probably a great guy probably loves his children loves his country like all that stuff likes out don't think i'm not saying something bad should happen to him or like i'm not i'm attacking i'm attacking the logic right i don't want to attack an individual that i don't know i understand where he came from there's just like this guy said though there's some things that strike me as being very very fishy mm-hmm we but we were in a situation before where we actually had like got assaulted by a bear i know we kind of alluded to that last week in that situation had we said let's just grab the antlers and go someone might be like why didn't you just say let's just grab a big back strap what why not grab a back leg and go why is it that that you're going to grab and go sure but you were also told that there's like a very good chance that a grizzly is going to claim you and they were right yeah and they were right but getting attacked by a bear didn't then we didn't then take that to mean let's just grab the antlers and get out of here no no we grabbed the whole damn thing and got out of there i i think you've got like why is it that there was why is it that you had the wherewithal you got guys with guns you got the wherewithal to go remove the head but you don't have the wherewithal to go remove any of the parts he was this is what he said again you weren't here he said he was at like before that any of this stuff had happened another game warden had advised him not to take meat from a carcass that a grizzly had claimed because of urine feces saliva like contamination that's what he said home a guy told him that again what are the odds he had that conversation i'm just saying he said an old game warden told him that i i like old game warden sat him down and said yeah just apropos i'm just telling you what he said i'm not ever comes up i don't know if that's the case that that's what he said and i'm not gonna like beat my the table with a shoe or something about it it just feels very very fishy to me and it look look it it looks fishy too but you know the other part that feels very fishy to me if they view if he viewed it as this great travesty that he was not able to get his elk meat and was somehow only able to get the antlers also like the same guy it begs the question how in the world would that have struck you as a thing that you weren't going to bother telling anybody about yeah yeah for sure that like and we talked about that last week like like he he he was he was either making a mistake or he was just trying to get out of there being fishy yeah that seems like the biggest error in this where he's like hey i got the part i wanted anyway i got the part i wanted i'm good now i don't gotta mess with all the hassle of dealing with the elk carcass i'm trying to talk my wife into cooking it as to why you would leave an animal die if if someone is listening on this now why would you what steve you were you were adamant you're like nobody leaves a critter lay overnight no no no don't put words in my mouth okay you tell me your words he's looking at it i'm not even defending this specific situation okay i'm not talking about other situations we're talking about this situation but you you said the only person who would leave something lay overnight they don't care about the meat that was a declaration you had made no no he's looking at it i'm talking about i'm talking only about this situation yes okay i could see a situation where you knew you had a really bad hit on something i could see a situation depending on the weather as well which would factor in in my calculation if it was getting down to 20 degrees at night yep i googled it for this day he was hunting it says the lows were in the mid 40s to low 50s around cody wyoming okay that would have factored in many things would factor into the situation i'm only speaking to a situation where there it is i can see it right in other situations i would say i wouldn't say i want to pull back and go back to camp to let it die and he's like and also i'm scared of grizzlies so that's also going to encourage me to go back to camp i would sit there saying um i'm gonna pull back but because of the risk of losing it to grizzlies i'm gonna linger here and check it with my spotlight and there's things you could do you can monitor the situation you could go up if it if you knew it was dead you could go build a great big fire and just yes do all the things you do make all kind of noise make a big fire um and hollering one thing that this before we go on this um if there are game wardens out there who know the answer to this question and i'm sure they do this is something steve and i were talking about is it is it legal to dispatch an ant like a wounded animal that's like not going where it's laying there wounded but it's not dead is it legal to dispatch an ant like a wounded animal dispatch an animal after legal shooting light yeah because this is a great question because let me tell you a story i just heard i just heard a story about some hunters where they had gotten a gotten a bad hit on a deer they came back at night to track the deer they had a dog the dog got onto the wounded deer somehow chased the deer out into a creek or pond i'm not sure but the deer is now out in the wild and they're not going to be able to catch the deer they're out in the water with the dog in the beam of a flashlight a kid the kid that shot it in the beam of a flashlight hits the deer out in the water with kills it hold on with a gun with his bow for the bow yep sorry i initially thought they meant with a gun takes his bow and and and and smokes it in the head on the beam of a flashlight with a dog on the deer got in trouble for this for shooting it with the artificial light now here's where this is like a huge i think this is a very interesting gray area in wildlife law if you look at legal method of take legal method of take would not be a knife like you most states it would be illegal to jump out of a tree and kill a deer with a knife it's not a legal method to take they'll spell out archery equipment right it's not a legal method to take it's not a legal method to take it's not a legal method to take it's not a legal method to take it's not a legal method to take a knife a spear not a legal method or even if you were archery hunting and had a pistol and you finished it off with a pistol i would never do that i know i'm just but this is all great questions because let's say and i've done this and i would continue to do this even if i knew it was illegal you catch up to something that's wounded and you cut its throat you've now killed the deer with with not a legal method to take you've now killed the deer with with not a legal method to take or you catch up to it and you do just like i'm talking about you take a flashlight you're like shit there he is get another air window yep you get an air window and kill it it's so weird i i get it but it's so weird to be like you just broke the law yeah yeah i mean i would write these tickets though i've cut deer's throats before yeah a legal method to take you can the well the first year i ever got first i was like i was telling you you always hunted before you were allowed to back when i was 14 i shot a deer when i was 13 and i was like i'm gonna kill it i'm gonna kill it i'm gonna in michigan i shot it it jumped up i jumped on it tackled it cut its throat that would have been like absolutely illegal method to take but no game warden would write you a ticket for finishing a deer off with a knife no no as long as i i think it's there to because it's the slippery slope of you know if it's not written in there then it gives people the opportunity to at two o'clock in the morning be out there shooting light shooting deer under lights and as long as they're not caught you know doing it in the act they can be like oh no finishing yeah we're just out here finishing these three off you know yeah right no i got it so it has it has to be there and it will probably be this gray area for some time to come i would love to hear a couple game warden perspectives um yeah like there's extreme versions and maybe an extreme version is your dog is it's not that wounded yeah and your dog has it out in the water yeah and it's like getting away and you smoke it with an arrow under a flashlight that feels to me like not that sort of tips into a weird area there's the one that's laying on the ground like wheezing you know like it's not going anywhere you know it's it'd be very well and again just like that warden said too the thing to do is call and let the warden know so if you're gonna all of a sudden fire a high caliber rifle two hours after legal shooting light ends as the deer that's on the ground and you're like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die wheezing and there's gonna be a gunshot that goes off two hours after legal shooting light call the warden if you can there's a lot of places you're not gonna be able to sure but you know you can make your best effort to be like hey man yeah just in case you get a call about one single shot at 10 p.m when it got dark at 7 30 yeah but it's funny too because i would never if we were bow hunting and we went out at night to look for something you definitely bring your bow yep sure because you're like well shit i don't know what's gonna happen to finish it off if someone said well i'm just gonna grab my pistol i'd be like no way dude it's bow season exactly but i would never factor in the artificial light yeah well as to why someone would let one lay though for like 12 hours if you're not familiar with archery hunting like there's a chance you bump that deer and he runs off and you never find him now ideally you can let them die in their first bed or their second bed uh and you're just upping your odds by letting them slowly expire in their bed rather than chasing after them and now they've ran two more miles away and and you just can't find them anymore look me in the eye once again yeah that's not what i'm talking about but before i hear you i hear you you didn't even know the 100 yard detail until we started until like five minutes ago before the show you're like people don't leave deer lay overnight that's not what i meant okay let's move on yeah right listen you're right you're right thank you all right i feel much better yeah i was okay wonderful but now we got a fire mark canyon so that's gotta take the hit here well the 8 to 12 hour recommendation you know better do you mind letting them know i'll let him know i'll tell him to keep showing up anyway though i think steve will forget about it okay let's just hope it blows over but it sounds like you're fired all right folks if you are a whitetail hunter you're gonna want to hear this right now we are running 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10 additional entries one winner will be selected to win the entire prize pack but don't wait around the giveaway ends monday october 12th 2026 at 11 59 p.m on to the news oh here's an interesting one i just got this i was uh you know thumbing through stuff i thumbed through and i saw that that maryland i'm mainly talking about this story because of a side story but that maryland let me put my spectacles on here what are you laughing about your side story oh the side story is the best that's why i brought this up here's a headline waterfowl hunting schedule confirmed after federal light trust me i'll explain all of this but here's the headline waterfowl hunting schedule confirmed after federal light goose conservation order paused for 26 27 season as a little background people who pay attention to just like wildlife politics wildlife news uh know that there has that snow goose populations were were quite low in the 60s and 70s and then due to changing agricultural practices and the changing of some things that are not even well understood snow goose populations just exploded most people think that snow goose populations were driven by again changes in agricultural practices grain prices more agricult changing agricultural um harvest schedules the way grain is harvested where we basically created a bunch of snow goose wintering habitat you might say well why is that a problem that became a problem because snow goose numbers it wound up being that the limiting factor on snow goose numbers was winter habitat so as farming practices created more and more and more snow goose habitat snow geese started to greatly degrade their nesting habitat in the arctic so in an effort to conserve arctic nesting habitat states took a lot of steps to increase snow goose harvest and out of this came some some snow goose hunting practices that in previous generations would have been regarded as like deeply taboo uh most people out there will know that when you're hunting ducks or geese or migratory waterfowl you need to put up you need to put a plug in your gun so that the gun can hold a maximum of three shells so two in the tube one in the chamber if it's a slide action or a semi-auto right maximum of three shells counting the chamber um when you're hunting big game generally you're allowed to hunt 30 minutes after legal sunset in waterfowl you always have to quit at legal sunset um people know that like when you're calling geese calling ducks normally you have to use a mouth blown call you can't use an electronic caller people are accustomed to very tight bag limits like maybe you're allowed two geese or three geese or four geese right to lower snow goose numbers all that stuff went out the window and they started these crazy snow goose seasons where there was no limit on snow geese or you're allowed 25 snow geese a day you were allowed to put extended magazines on guns we're here that you get videos of guys shooting snow geese where the magazine is longer than the barrel on the shotgun spring seasons too this has been most of my life that i've only ever known snow you've only ever known the good times you're describing yep you've only ever known the good times um electronic callers that you could sit a multiple electronic callers out in the field playing the noise of a huge flock of snow geese that you're hunting them in the spring you're hunting ducks migrating everyone sorry normally you're hunting geese and ducks migrating south in the fall and winter season they're opening up seasons all through the central flyway somewhere in the atlantic flyway you're hunting returning geese you're hunting them on the way down you're hunting them all winter long and you're hunting them on the way back in an effort to to lower these goose numbers guys that are participating in these crazy snow goose hunts aren't even really aware of i would guess aren't really aware of degraded arctic nesting habitat maybe most of them don't really care about degraded arctic nesting habitat but it created this like snow goose bonanza if you go look online you'll find videos where guys are dumping hundreds of snow geese off bridges and you'd go to popular snow geese hunting areas and people would have photos i've seen them where there are islands of dead snow geese because guys are just killing them and dumping them dumpsters full of dead snow geese geese landfills covered in dead snow geese from people like the bonanza is so big that they're violating the wanton waste laws it was the wild west so an important distinction here is in the atlantic flyway you have the greater snow geese and these things are big and then in the central flyway you have the lesser snow geese well maryland and other flyway atlantic flyway states are just now starting to reverse some of these some of the they're starting to tighten some of the bonanza back down um let me pull this up here from from max bear with me a minute not as organized as i would like to be our resident duck expert max bartum i said to him like tell me your thing what are you thinking when you look at this like help me interpret this max bartas says here's my thoughts he points out the main concerning thing about this is is that the the atlantic greater snow goose population has been declining for years they think that last year alone they lost 200 000 atlantic greater snow geese to avian influenza that's what i was going to ask about it wound up being this not like if they're getting that number under control it's not because the crazy hunting the numbers dropping from from the avian influenza and he points out that they're talking about pausing they're talking about pausing the thing but they're only just adjusting a couple things they're still hunting them in march right and this article even points out that greater that greater snow geese on the atlantic flyway are now at or below at or below the conservation threshold they'd like to see so that leaves the question why in the world are they still killing them in march because they're only changing the hand they're only changing a handful of these regulations what's interesting to me is like these are like waterfowl is like top level managed by the feds right so our states are free to change their own waterfowl regulations and no it's a flyway thing it's a flyway issue okay yeah it's a flyway issue snow geese seem to still be doing good though central flyway 100 yeah this flyway issue is a flyway issue not and if they're like so here's a sentence from this thing or a passage the light goose conservation order is a management tool authorized by the u.s fish and wildlife service and has been used to reduce and stabilize populations of light geese which include greater and lesser snow geese and ross's geese since 2010 however here's the thing so the atlantic flyway is the graders however greater snow geese and ross's geese are not the same thing they're not the same thing they're not are now at or below the management plan's population goal maryland and the other states in the atlantic flyway a major bird migration route on the east coast have elected to pause the light goose conservation order for the 2026-2027 season barely if they were really like i don't get well my they were really serious about this no i'm because it's like at or below population levels right so if it's at then you're like everything's perfect so if they're slightly like at or below i'm guessing in their heads they're like it can still sustain this hunting it can't sustain this hunting yeah but what i'm afraid of here is they're not factory okay the late the atlantic greater goose population right now is sitting at roughly 450 to 500,000 birds they just lost 200,000 to avian influenza avian influenza has not gone away meanwhile the central flyway lesser snow goose population sits at eight million if you've got greater snow geese in the atlantic flyway at around 500,000 and you just lost 200,000 to avian influenza and you're pausing the conservation order is a couple modest tweaks and you're still shooting them all through the winter and through march i just think that like it feels to me a little courting disaster yeah is it possible the the the u.s fish and wildlife service could like do they supersede maryland like maryland if they said you can't do this anymore yeah absolutely yeah it's through a flyway council all the states the feds all come in there's even interplay with canada and mexico on the whole thing i just saw when i thought when i saw the headline i thought oh wow yeah they're doing away with all the crazy slaughter hunts because geese numbers are so low and i read i'm like oh wow geese numbers are really low and then i'm reading out i'm like but they're not really doing away with the crazy slaughter hunts my read would be the same as yanni that like despite all that they're still very bullish on snow geese apparently being okay max says the new rules accomplish little perhaps saving a rooster too from being jumped yeah it does feel like the again the first time in my lifetime that this has gone the other direction for snow geese it's always been the gloves are off like get them the only thing they've done just to be clear here's the only thing they've done they've said okay now instead of no limit the limit is 25 and now instead of being able to shoot a half hour past sunset you can only shoot till sunset that is the response to it being at objective having just lost a couple hundred thousand birds to avian influenza now for my maryland story right when this started to blow up so this would have been back in i know yeah this would have been in 2010 when this whole thing started to blow up i go down with my buddy ronnie and we go down can't remember how it happened me and him and another buddy of ours went down to do a big snow goose hunt with a guide and the guide had one of those dogs this is the problem with some labs they're human shit eaters i remember i wasn't aware of this it's an issue oh yeah that's max yeah there's all kinds of there's all kinds of things on the internet to fix it like feed them bananas i'm aware of like coprophagia but i didn't know it could like humans they'll be like yeah give me the human there are it's a problem among labs okay i have this on good authority from max who in in addition to knowing more about ducks and geese than i'll knowing more now at his young age about ducks and geese than i'll ever know okay he knows more about labs than i'll ever know i had one for 13 years um they'd have they have a human shit eating problem yeah so picture this this ties into maryland um we're all in layout blinds which are really restricted really restrict your movements when you're in a layout blind you can shoot your toe off this guide goes off and takes a growler in the windrow all right all of a sudden here's the dog running around having consumed those human feces even to the point you're gonna think i'm lying i'm not even ask ronnie even to the point where the dog is trailing the toilet paper out of its mouth okay there you are in a layout blind he should have buried you had to put a warning on this episode in addition to this dog being a coprophagic dog scatophagic dog he's also avid face licker and he's got you like kind of captive because you're in a layout yeah so here now we know that he's just consumed feces human feces but he wants to lick you real bad i guess i'm in that layout blind i'm in that layout blind beating this dog off not when you're when you're not supposed to be moving around now now we will have to put a warning i'm in the layout blind aggressively shooing the dog away for just because of this what do you think of that how many geese did you kill a handful good not not unlimited not a slaughter hunt not unlimited what do you think of that yeah that had been like the first time in my life i would reject dog affection i love dogs makes you wonder though would you get one of that dog licking you no no how's that for a story i'd rather hear spencer's turtle story yeah thanks steve here's my turtle story an iowa man is facing more than 120 charges in alabama for trafficking in endangered species phil's got pictures for us Aidan Thronson, whose only prior criminal history I could find was for speeding in a school zone. He was arrested in northwest Alabama near Bankhead National Forest. He is accused of harvesting and selling flattened musk turtles, which are a species that is exclusively native to north central and west central Alabama. It's been called the rarest turtle in North America. The turtle is listed as threatened by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, endangered by the state of Alabama and critically endangered by the IUCN Red List. These reptiles have been extirpated from about 75 percent of their native range. Their population is down 90 percent since the 1960s. Their greatest threats are the things that you always hear in these cases, pollution, food chain disruption, poaching and habitat loss. Specifically, the turtles rely on rocky waterways where they wedge themselves into rock. But due to mining practices and urban development, their home waters have been filled with silt that now covers their hidey holes and that exposes them to raccoons, snapping turtles, wading birds and large fish. The turtles are real easy pickings for most predators that wander the upper Black Warrior River system since adults only get three or four inches big. But besides their shell, these are tiny little turtles. Besides their shell, their best defense. This is the foul-smelling musk odor that they're named after, which they can release when they're threatened. Now, guys like Aiden are further depleting flattened musk turtle populations by moving them on the exotic pet black market. The species is largely trafficked due to its scarcity, not because it has any perceived medicinal value. So what would it cost to own one of them? Well, figures are pretty hard to come by, but there was a bust in the 1980s for someone who was selling them at $80 a pop. It's pretty cheap. In 2008, someone was selling them at $80 a pop. And right now, you can buy one adult male from JJW Farm Sanctuary for $1,444, and that's their sale price. Is that dude black market? This is black market. Yeah, well, I can't find where this website is based out of them, but it seems to be foreign. They only accept payment via Cash App. Zelle Pay or Crypto. He's got a hell of a sale on, because that's marked down from $3,000 to $1,440. Let's talk about the rest of their offerings. This is your one-stop shop for exotic animals, the JJW Farm Sanctuary. Here's what else they have. We could get a male sub-adult chimpanzee for $15,000. That's a $5,000 price marked down. That price seems appropriate, $15,000 for a chimp. That's like, I think, in the neighborhood of what I would guess. Or we could get the world's deadliest bird. That's a $5,000 price. We could get a chimp. giving them some food um my react my first the first thing that came to mind with with that in mind that this was just someone like being nice to the bears an animal lover but the first thing that came to my mind is like imagine the reaction like what would have happened if a hunter was found to have poached 14 bears oh they'd be killing you know what i mean like this person is responsible for the death of 14 bears and you know we'll see hopefully we find out what the punishment ends up being um but i doubt it'll be what they deserve is my my no because think about the from from a resource perspective yeah think about uh i mean this is not a bear bear this is not a bear this is not a bear this is not a bear rich environment relative to other places no not that it's just not it's like arid you know no it's fairly open like we don't have bears right like in the densities that you do in dense forest ecosystems um what we have are more visible yeah because of the open nature of the country but we don't have that many and think about what you've done to the resource reduction yep for people that do do lawful bear hunting it's like that is a huge it's a huge hit to the bear population the other thing i think about is for them to how extreme it must have been where i've told the story a couple times but i i kicked the bear out of my own garage twice now this this fall two times i've run a bear out of my garage it was in the neighbor's garage um someone in our someone in our neighborhood i've run a bear out of my garage i've run a bear out of my garage i've not sure who someone in our neighborhood tattle told on the bear their advice to them was close your garage right exactly so these are not like the agency the state agency is not trigger happy no when it comes to problem bears their normal attitude is you need to take care of the like correct the problem yeah you know if you've got like fruit from fruit trees laying around get it picked up if you got trash out get it picked up if you got bird seed out take it in if it's in your garage close your garage yeah this isn't like like their attitude is learn to live with it reduce deterrence and learn to live with it for so for them to go all of a sudden like 14 it must have been a crazy situation yeah and it brings to mind there was that woman in california that was feeding bears regularly and i think she ended up getting killed in her house yeah in her house um so that's like the extreme version of what could happen but yeah they must have had these bears must have been like standing around yeah like to know what bait they were using yeah that's my main question is in the pilates capital of the world this posh mountain town proclaimed as proclaimed by steven ranella what were they feeding the bears like were these were they smart enough just to be like yeah these bears will eat corn so they just went down to the granary bought a bunch of bags of corn bags of dog food or were they like oh there's like red meat so i'll go buy a half a cow and feed them steaks hopefully it'll go to i shouldn't say hopefully yeah i hope it goes to trial so all this becomes yeah all this becomes public and if if it would have been half that if it had been seven bears that would still be a shocking number yeah 14 is insane i don't even get like you talked like clay he'll run up when clay's running a bait pile down there in arkansas he'll get where he thinks i remember him saying one time he had a bait pile but he notes that he's like when you kill one of those bears it shuts the bait pile down because he says there's two things happening a acorns as he likes to call them acorns are starting to fall right around that time of year but also he said so that's a pull away like a like a bear would rather go eat wild acorns rather than deal with the stressful situation of coming into a bait station where a bunch of other bears are using it but he says a bait pile is good for a bear and when you kill one it shuts it down so how could it be like how are these bears so habituated i would love to know this well they're so habituated that they're able to barrel trap 14 bears this also isn't nearly the food rich environment that clay is dealing with where the bears are like jeez they keep i keep seeing my buddies in these barrels but i'm gonna keep coming to work for food around too is that how they got them they barrel trapped these i don't know i'm i don't imagine yeah or they darted them i assume they just shot them dead no oh maybe i i think they would have used if they say euthanized like i don't know oh that could be yeah maybe they just went out there and had to just shoot them off or they grabbed they've trapped them and i mean trapping them 14 in one spot like maybe they did just shoot them i don't know because it's an open investigation they're probably not going to talk about this yet but they are generally like very restrained and conservative about problem bears yeah which i applaud they give them a chance usually you know this was already a couple weeks ago my brother-in-law yesterday and i saw him he said that just over the weekend they had uh trapped three more out of that neighborhood where he lives south of uh the university so it's like the bears are just it's a catastrophic berry failure yeah they're not in the they're not in the mountains and out in the places they should be they're like all coming to town to look for food but even the town food failed i was talking to an old-timer that has an apple orchard oh you mean he lost his whole orchard because the buds all froze or in that free cold snap we have choke cherries and and crab apples you shouldn't say that you shouldn't have those i didn't plant them you could cut them down dude they even ask yeah they even ask that if you have these things you should consider changing up your tree program and you should consider changing up your tree program and you should consider changing up your tree program and you should consider changing up your tree program for bears yes got it it's it's it's a recommendation it's a recommendation anyways not a one in my yard not a single choke cherry or crab apple yeah in my yard but i've had the worst bear problems we've ever dealt with two o'clock two o'clock in the afternoon i had to run one out of my garage i wonder if we could uh transplant your your problem trees over to wisconsin to my place where uh where i'd love to have the deer and bears you know where i'd love to have the deer and bears eating on them i would like to make correction i think that those bears make clays bait sites when the acorns start falling i don't think it's that they all sudden are like oh i don't want to deal with the stress of a bait pile i'm gonna go eat acorns i think it's actually the acorns are falling it is a much better source of calories better food i don't need bait anymore there's i have this great thing called acorns here's why i disagree please once you shoot the acorns you're going to shoot one they all vanish so there is some calculation they're making there is some push and pull yeah there is some but i'm just saying that i don't i don't if the acorns start falling yes he says they would rather change food source he says they would rather but it hurries that decision along he should come on the show and talk about it it hurries that transition along when you shoot one on the bait okay or else why does the transition happen right on opening day i honestly think it's coincidence i mean in wisconsin it seems to happen i can't a week before opening day oh it does yeah like literally all my neighbors like are really quitting bear baiting because everybody baits them they have them all summer long and then the acorns start falling and literally there are no more acorns and they're all gone and they're all gone and there's no more bears on the baits or cameras you could be right i see what you're saying now yeah i think it's a strong pull like it's just it's like right around whatever that day is september 5 or whatever it's like you're at the end anyway yeah you're at the end anyway i understand i'll buy that all right folks if you are a whitetail hunter you're gonna want to hear this right now we are running the ultimate whitetail giveaway and it's packed with over twenty three thousand dollars in prizes including the new zulu six binoculars from sig a six five creedmoor from sig moultrie edge three cameras case knives an arc thirty bow from matthews and a thousand dollar gift card from first light and their new whisper down jacket and pant and a whole other pile of gear from other partner brands and that's not all you can also win a chance to join me mark kenyon for a fully guided muzzleloader whitetail hunt at running water hunting hosted by outfitter jordan budd this is a five-day four-night december hunt during the muzzleloader season one of the most exciting times to be in a whitetail stand lodging in 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that yeah it's good that they're suing them but go on i shouldn't even have spoken up yeah this it's just adding well we'll get to all this um the fur bear population in colorado historically has historically been strong and sustainable without any daily bag limit requiring no science-based restrictions originally there were two proposals that came in for a change in the bag limit there was one there was two options one was a limit of 15 which was recommended by cpw staff or a tiered limit of eight or four which i don't exactly understand how tiered goes eight or four but whatever those were the two options eight some species four okay but where's the tiered come in it was for there was two different groups of of critters one was like things that are considered like predatory and nuisance like foxes raccoons and then others were like pine martins and and the word tiered is just used because it's eight and four sure okay um so there's a last minute introduction this is where they're what they're getting in trouble for uh during the july 16th meeting commissioner rebecca nyam yetz introduced a motion for a limit of two based on her own unpeer-reviewed survey published just the day before i mean come on just pulls it out of her arse literally yeah uh despite objections from other commissioners that the new limit bypassed public notice and comment requirements six commissioners voted in favor of the two furbearer limit now the whole commissioner thing in colorado there's 13 total um only 11 of them have a have voting rights they're appointed by the governor but they have to be um sworn in by just by the legislator so what's happening legislation what am i trying to say not legislation legislature so what's happening here is that the governor has appointed a lot of a bunch of folks to this commission that aren't pro hunting and fishing and then this kind of stuff can come up and they vote on it and it can get pushed through so what they're getting sued um over is is that they have violated the administrative procedure act by failing to provide proper notice including and sorry ignoring public comment rules and relying on rushed unreviewed data yeah we're all here to debate and vote on 15. and at the last minute some gals like how about two yes that's what happens in that commission man yeah over and over uh it colorado's got a big problem on their hands but right now well coming up less than a month october 3rd you can help colorado's hunters anglers november 3rd yeah what did i say october 3rd that already passed november 3rd you can vote in colorado and vote for amendment 83 which is the constant which would make a constitutional right to hunt and fish in the state of colorado um talked to dan gates this morning from coloradans for responsible wildlife management um he said the main thing you can do right now if you're interested in helping this out is everything you see on the internet like on socials don't just like it um or make a comment share it um and i'll go on to say that like you should contact people it's the same thing that i was saying for when we were when you guys were voting for the uh for the lion thing in colorado it's like just this morning i sent a text to my uh family in colorado um most of this group there's probably about 10 people in this group most of them don't hunt my brother's on this group he hunts i'm trying to think who else my cousins used to hunt they haven't hunted in 10 years and i just said hey have you heard of amendment 83 it's on the ballot the short version is this the amendment creates a constitutional right right to hunt and fish be nice something like this wasn't needed but animal rights extremists have chosen colorado as one of their battleground states and they will continue to chip away at these opportunities in colorado's outdoor heritage and they will continue to chip away at these facilities until it's gone here's a link to learn more about the amendment and i gave them the um save the hunt colorado.com link and i told my i supported it wholeheartedly and hoped that they would too and even more share info about it talk to neighbors and friends paul diaz that's how you say thank you and latvian you know what i'd like we we should have some kind of expert that can explain like do these constitutional rights to hunt and fish do they have to be they have like teeth you should listen to this podcast because we've explored this issue many times on this podcast would have it changed anything in this specific situation though like couldn't they still pitch the two furbear limit and that's still passed i have yet to see like i have yet to see no no there's an example we covered in a recent example where 25 states have enacted constitutional right to hunt fish vermont was the first in the 70s um the next state didn't do it till like the midnight no vermont was the first in 1777 hundreds of years ago oh hold on that's when they did it yes the next one was in like 96 that's when it was yeah they're way ahead of the game there's some surprise there's some states that are surprising that we have we have like montana like big hunting and fishing states montana hasn't done it nevada hasn't done it but 25 states have done a constitutional right to hunt and fish my question on this issue and i ask everybody that comes on about it when we talk to people about it is can you cite an example for me where a piece of legislation came up and the legislation or or a game management question came up and it was shot down because it would have violated that's what the right to hunt fish and there's just one right now who's the state that's suing on fisheries we just covered it on the podcast said north carolina yeah i believe north carolina anglers are saying that's right your fisheries management has run amok and you are you are degrading or challenging our constitutional right to hunt and fish by not managing fisheries in a way that allows for fishing and they're questioning it under that but i'm not aware of many situations where um actions have taken place and they're questioning it under that but i'm not aware of many situations where um actions have taken place where this would trump those actions i could picture some and i could also picture that they'd say that that it would be um we're always going to set bag limits the commission sets bag let's do all this and that you wouldn't be able to sue under that premise anyways but with that said i do think it's a it's a very good thing to do oh yeah and i think that when we pass these pieces of legislation we should make them as broad reaching as possible because you're doing it on a ballot line and you're doing it on a ballot line and you're doing it on a ballot initiative which makes good hard law yeah and in a state like colorado you're doing it kind of crystal balling the worst scenario that could where they're like sorry you can't hunt big horn sheep anymore or whatever you know it's so puzzling to me that colorado of all places has emerged as the area where the radical animal rights agenda is being tested i don't think it's weird at all i would picture it more and louder on rhode island but don't you think them in washington or the two that are kind of battling washington is bad bad they they saw an opportunity when polis got into office and you know we know that polis's husband is very much an animal rights activist that's how he defines himself i think they they were like all right here's our chance to pounce you know yeah yeah because they have a they have a ally in the governor's mansion and then his husband is defines himself as an animal whatever the hell goofy term he uses defines himself as an animal rights activist and we know from the cats aren't trophy thing that they were the governor was involved in that that whole thing oh his uh husband there he's spending money and advocating against proposition 83 they don't want amendment 83 right no definitely not is there not that dude's getting termed out is it is the person that's going to replace this governor who's i think is just the worst governor in the country is who's ever going to replace polis are they more friendly to hunters and anglers are they like another animal rights wag job coming in i need to research it according to dan gates it's he's better he's better yeah is there a federal avenue in this that like if if trump decided tomorrow that he wanted to create 50 states having the constitutional right to fish does that work it would be an i don't know there'd be some kind of executive action well he was bragging the other day he was bragging the other day that he could ban fishing he says my office yeah my office is so powerful i could ban fishing i might just ban it for a day that's great maybe that's the win on this he was explaining this to johnny morris and he was saying to johnny morris who is in the audience when he said this he said i could make it that you don't sell any fishing rods my office is so powerful i could ban fishing for a day and he joked like i'm not going to fall into the trap of not knowing when the guy's joking which the news media always pretends to not know when they're joking he's joking but he joked i could do this i don't think i don't find that joke funny well it's a joke it's a joke in the media the media always like he says a joke and then they go and act like he meant it right and there's that there's that selena zito quote um the media doesn't take trump seriously but they take him literally trump supporters take him seriously but not literally and so the media then you know whatever they would act like he's really going to ban fishing for a day which would be not a thing he's going to do but him saying that i wonder if if that is true from a legal perspective and you did an executive order the problem is with executive orders as we see every time anybody does an executive order this is the next executive undoes that executive order and that's how you get stuff like the monument the monument battles the roadless battle and all these other executives but i don't think it would have like he couldn't how could he order the states control their own wildlife regulations like hunting and like i don't yeah i don't know i don't see it we should dare i don't know it'll be illegal my hope is that these amendments are going to be legal but i don't know if they're going to be uh to the state's constitutions that it would act as a retardant to future attacks and if that is all that it does great you know dan gates will have more time to enjoy his retirement as opposed to sitting around all the time battling this yeah give one more quick call to action you honest please yeah go to save the hunt colorado dot com an issue i see and and colorado's going through the the last election cycle when the cat met when the cat hunting ban was up in colorado i never said it i never said it but i got pessimistic do you remember yeah i was like man i think it's going to pass i never said it but i was like i got fearful that it would wait you had reason to believe that after people who thought that who were educated what's that did you have people who thought that who were educated i was just looking at the polling okay i think there was good reason to to wonder because the wolf thing went through right you know but i don't i don't see those as i know they're neighbors but not they're neighbors but not but it gives you an idea of how the electorate how the wins is thinking correct i got pessimistic and i got to toward the end i got like man i never said it because i don't want to deter yeah you know i don't want to like people to just give up and not show up at the polls or whatever but i got nervous and i got to on the day before i got to where i was like if i really had to guess i i think that we're not we're going to fall short and then and then got it by a good margin yep in today's 55 to 45 which is which is big right and where we send people to the white house on you know 49.9 of the the vote or sometimes we send people to the white house on yeah less than half of the vote margins are tight these days on this one the thing i'm worried about is what i keep reading is that they're anticipating on november 3rd they're anticipating like the blue wave and the blue wave would be that democrat democratic voters are very motivated to go to the polls right now um and they're finding a sort of waning enthusiasm among republican voters this like it or not is going to be a not clean not clean but it's going to just be a partisan split vote this is going to have heavy support from republican voters and it's going to have i bet you among democratic voters if only democratic voters voted on this amendment the amendment wouldn't pass it'll lose among democratic voters it'll win overwhelmingly among republican voters if republican voters are not motivated to go to the polls it makes me worried about amendment 83. it'll pass go vote yeah but you you agree that it's we'll know it'll not pass among democrat voters and it'll pass overwhelmingly among republicans so we need some democrats to vote for it and you need a lot of republicans i don't know what all they got going on i think the republicans have kind of given up hope in colorado like you're not going to win the governor's office um this is i think something i want to bring this up because it gives you a talking point and everybody i think at home can be like oh no why why do i really need to go talk to people that you know don't understand hunting or how am i going to talk to them about this or this this gives you a little insight as to what non-hunters this is my i was texting with my uh aunt after i texted the group she wrote back and said hey uh i'm all for hunt to eat but have reser vations about trophy hunters does this amendment address that i didn't see it addressed is it under in quotes traditional hunting okay so again this is just where she's at with what she knows about hunting and there is a part of it and again that term i was asking you guys earlier like it's been weaponized big time yeah i could go to her right now and i might have a i might call her and say hey i'm a trophy hunter at times i just spent 20 days in uh hunting elk and didn't shoot an elk because i was looking for a trophy um but that's like what's in her head because she's hearing about like how bad trophy hunting is because she thinks of it as a dichotomy well she thinks of i said well what is trophy hunting to you she says well someone just goes and kills something and takes the antlers and puts it on their wall i said well that's illegal you literally cannot do that anywhere that's called poaching she's grizzly huh gets it yeah it's like different states call different things but it's one in waste so it's like that kind of a simple conversation and explaining something simple as that is saying hey trophy hunting this thing that you think is trophy hunting that that you're seeing in the media and and people are saying oh this is what these people actually want to do it's illegal we can't do it no one does it and so you can kind of forget about trophy hunting and just like please support us as just hunters and anglers that are mostly out there doing the hunt to eat thing except for brody's body one more shout out for vermont they passed it in 1777. that was 14 years before they became a state and they were the only state who had that protected uh right to hunt and fish for more than 200 years how can you have a constitutional amendment before your estate dude they didn't even finish the revolution like this is an important one we gotta get we got in the long when we did the long hunters um where it's colonial uh you know it's about the colonial deer skin trade like our audio original long hunters covers the end of the french and indian war up to the american revolution and we talk about pre-revolution all of the deer hunting restrictions that were in place there was restrictions that you couldn't hunt if you weren't a local you couldn't hunt deer if you weren't a local there was there was people putting in deer seasons in the 1760s 1770s they're like we need a season we need bag limits new york i think we need you can't shoot does we need that you can't come from out of town and hunt deer around here so yeah it was it was people were aware of these things all right man i hope just a lot of people show up on november 3rd and just do what you guys did around the cat thing down in colorado it is so upsetting to see this happening in colorado save the hunt colorado.com sons of see you guys want to make them go hunt with that lab yeah we'd want to protect his right all right man see you next week The best part of a whitetail sit is often the part you have to earn. 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